Mentorship, Loyalty, And The Making Of A Command Master Chief

A career isn’t a straight line—it’s a wake, and sometimes the seas are rougher than the chart suggests. Gary sits down with Master Chief Mike “Kaz” Kaszubowski to trace three decades of Navy life from Chicago sidewalks to Seventh Fleet, from learning damage control on Treasure Island to stabilizing a crew after the FITZ collision. What emerges is a rare, unvarnished look at mentorship, advancement, and the real cost of leadership when the headlines fade and the deck plates still need answers.

Kaz shares how a young DC2 became the kind of senior enlisted leader who could run the plant, guide a mess, and hold a standard without losing the human. We talk about building platform expertise, why EL letters once defined engineering credibility, and the difference between doing maintenance on paper and owning it in the spaces. We confront culture shifts head-on: the end of “work hard, play hard” as a shield, the long shadow of Fat Leonard on liberty and trust, and the operational grind that shaped sailors in Japan long before it made front pages. Fairness is a theme throughout—how boards actually read records, how influence can distort detailing, and why compensation still lags responsibility for command master chiefs.

This episode isn’t nostalgia. It’s a field guide. You’ll hear practical truths about 3M realities, manning myths, and how to share the load across departments so casualty response is a ship’s sport. You’ll hear how to pick mentors who tell you what you need to hear, not what you want, and why three rules can carry you through chaos: lead yourself exceptionally well, create opportunities for others to succeed, and keep a positive attitude. If you care about leadership, loyalty, and doing the right thing when it’s costly, you’ll find something to carry back to your team.

If this conversation hit a nerve or gave you a tool you can use today, share it with a shipmate and leave a quick review. Subscribe for more candid, useful leadership talks that respect your time and your intelligence.

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Transcript

Reuniting And Setting The Stage

Gary Wise 0:27

Hey everybody, half a day. How you doing? Good evening, good afternoon, good morning, whatever time it is, you're listening to the sound of our voice. Once again, it's Wise Leadership Solutions, words from the Wise. And I'm coming back today with another one, another guest from my career when I was in the military on active duty. This guy, man, I it's gonna be interesting to see if he remembers how far back we go. But I will tell you, uh, he was somebody that I not only respected, admired, looked up to, and uh worked worked to get to know through a lot of my career. So without further ado, let me introduce uh Mike, Mr. Mike Kaz Bowski. What's up, Kaz?

Mike Kaszubowski 1:06

What's up, buddy? How are you?

Gary Wise 1:07

I'm good, bro. I'm good. Thank you for taking the time to come and join us here today, brother.

Mike Kaszubowski 1:12

Yeah, absolutely. My pleasure. It's good to see you, man. And uh, like kind of like you said, we've known each other for a long time.

Gary Wise 1:18

Long time, man. So I don't know if you remember, but I will tell you, uh, when I first found your name, it was 2008. Okay, yeah. So, and I was at ATG San Diego at the time. I was a young DC chief, and and and you were you were DC men as well, but we had never crossed paths. Correct. You were in Japan, and I had I was in San Diego at the time, and I was just learning the Navy, right? I really didn't know what the Navy really was doing, right? I didn't understand. Like, I remember when I made chief, my chief was like, Oh, you'll make it when it's your turn. Like, you gotta wait longer, right? I didn't know what that meant even. So as a DC one, I make chief, and then I go to ATG, and my senior chief was like, Gary, there's plenty of guys out there that are doing good things, right? And so I learned I can go on NPC and I can pull down all the results for everyone that makes rank, right? Sure. And so I data mine, I pulled down like all the mass chief results and I backdated who makes who made mass chief first time. I pulled down all the senior chief results, who made senior chief first time, and then I had a very small list of people that I was like, what are they doing? Right? What are those people doing to make ranks so fast? Because I'm riding all these ships and I'm meeting all these DCCs, and a lot of them are saying the same things that I'm saying. Like no one knows what the hell to do, right? Everyone's asking, like, what do I do? And you were on the list of guys that had made Sean Chief like first time up. And so I had messaged you like an email, and I was like, hey man, I'm Gary. Don't know if you know me or not. And I think you were at ATG Westpac at the time, debt Sassamo.

Mike Kaszubowski 3:10

Yeah, I just left the USS Gary in 2008. In 2008, I did the Gary McCampbell Hall Swap. And then after that tour, uh I went down to ATG Sassable. That's correct.

Gary Wise 3:20

And you made senior chief there, right? Is that what I'm saying?

Mike Kaszubowski 3:23

I made senior chief on the Gary, correct. Yeah.

Data Mining Promotion And Early Mentorship

Gary Wise 3:25

Right. And so you were going and you were going into the command senior chief program, and not everyone knew that, but that was my plan. Like, not command senior chief, but I wanted to be a command master chief, right? Because uh being a DC man was not my favorite, it was my passion, right? I joined the Navy undesignated, I love being an engineer, but I was when I stayed, when I chose to not go officer through initiation, it's because I bought into the mess. Like I was like, I believe in this chief's mess thing, and I believe that I want the command to be the best it can be for the sailors. And my path to getting there was I gotta make master chief first. And so, how do you do that as a D seaman, right? And there was, I had never even met a DC master chief at that point in my career. Not even met one, right? There was like none in San Diego, I felt like they were all like in Norfolk or something, like unicorns, man. Right? I remember I mean it was I remember when Dave Singer made Master Chief in Japan, and everyone in the fleet was like, How did that guy make Master Chief? Who is he? Because like just because you don't know him, bro, doesn't mean he's not solid, dog. Like when I left the GW and I went to Norfolk, I swear to God, like every DC man in Norfolk had to come meet me because they all wanted to know who was this guy that dares to make Master Chief out of Japan, right? And uh and and I had to I had to stand up for that, right? I had to stand on that business and like represent Seventh Fleet and be like, yeah, Norfolk, what's up? Have a conversation. What do you want to talk of? Want to talk DC? You want to talk chief? What do you want to do? So, anyway, I email you, and from the jump, bro, you were solid. You were like, hey man, appreciate the information. Here's what I did, here's what I'm doing. Stay close, let's talk. And that began a mentorship that would run from we never even met in person the first time until like 28, 17, right? So for five years, it was messaging, email, just connecting, right? Whether it was social media, whatever it was. And I remember the year I made Master Chief, you would sat the board, right? And I was on George Washington, gone through a hell of a tour, wasn't sure what I wanted to do with my career, had just gone through a lot with my captain and all kinds of, and I make master chief, right? And I came back from the board, and you're like, hey bro, let's meet up and talk at the Chiefs Club. And I didn't want to, I didn't want to because I was like, I don't want people to think that I'm like me and this dude are super connected, and I made Master Chief because Cass is my boy, right? I was like, I want people to think I made Master Chief because of all the damn work I did and how hard it was. And so I passed up on that opportunity to meet you then because I was insecure, right? I'm like, I'm not sure that I want to be like, I don't want people to think, oh, we connected as soon as he got back from the board. Yeah, and two of two of us made nine that year out of Yoko, right? It was me and James. We both made Master Chief that year. And so then when I came back to Japan as a CMC, and I'll never forget, and one other thing before we jump into this, when I went CMC, I remember you hit me up and you're like, damn, bro, I wish you would have waited longer to go mass CMC. And I was like, dog, you don't know. Like, I can't go back as a DC man. Like, I will freaking, I won't make it. It's too hard. Like, I did it on a carrier, it almost killed me, right? Like, tough job. And then uh, and then we connected again later. So I bro, thank you for always being willing to talk shop, to talk leadership, to talk mentorship, to talk, to talk the stuff that that me as a DC man, me as a surface sailor, the things that I resonate with, right? Because we're not we're different than aviation, we're different than submarine force, and I believe that truthfully. And I love my community, and you're the kind of person that that people like me respect, because you gotta be real, right? And yeah, that's and unfortunately, when you're real, not everyone's gonna like you, bro. It's just how it goes.

Mike Kaszubowski 7:40

That's a that's a very true statement. Um, yeah, there's that's a that's a whole conversation in itself. Uh, I would say, even especially to now, you know, in today's Navy, but you know, one thing you said that is absolutely true is um your record, I remember on the board spoke for itself, and so did James. So it wasn't it it is extremely hard having sat nine selection boards in the Navy to hook somebody up. It's just it's damn near impossible because there's so many other mass chiefs and command mass chiefs and commanders and captains that sit these boards. The good thing for you and James, which I do remember, is your record spoke for itself. And so it's hard not to select people whose record speaks for itself. And so, and then to your second point, I do remember you emailing me and saying, Hey, I just made mass chief, I think I'm going to CMC program. I remember that, and I was like, No, you're not. I said, Listen, man, you were selected to be a damage control mass chief. We need good D seamen in the Navy. Yeah, and having been a former D seaman, you know, I I maybe I should have taken my own advice, but I think the times in 2010 were a lot different. When I when I got selected, I I made you know mass chief in 2010 uh on the USS Patriot in my first command senior chief tour. So I was never a DC Master Chief at sea on a carrier. Uh you were. And and I was thinking, man, this guy's gonna go run the schoolhouse, this guy's gonna go do another carrier, he's got all this expertise, he's well respected. And then you went ahead and put a command master chief package in. I'm like, damn, we just selected this guy. I mean, no kidding. As soon as you were selected, you immediately put a package in that year and then selected. So part of me is like, man, we just lost a really good D seman. Then the other part of me was like, but the command master chief just community just gained a phenomenal command mastery. So it's kind of it was twofold, right? But um, all the pictures and and you going through inspections uh and all the hard tours you did, your record spoke for itself.

Gary Wise 9:49

The board got it right. No, no, I remember, and and trust me, I get it, bro. I had I went through it. Like, I really I remember I got to Norfolk as a master chief, and I was like, I don't gotta go CMC, like, but I had no desire to be a 3MC, right? And back in those days, they weren't really giving Master Chiefs the job, right? Yeah, you were having to there because there was a lot of young guys like me that were trying to get the job, and you know it's funny when I got the George Washington, I was going there as a chief, and there was a guy named Miller who was a DC master chief from Norfolk who had the nine job. He even called me up. He's like, Gary, I'm gonna be the master chief, but you're gonna run everything. I got it. And I'm young and hungry. I'm like, all I need, bro, is you to play. Play the play the line, dog. I got you. I'll do it all, right? But then the dude doesn't pass overseas screening, right? And so I get there and he's not coming. And the chief engineer, I'm there like two weeks, and they tell me he fails overseas screening. And the chief engineer is like, Well, chief, we're gonna get another master chief from another rate, and we're gonna put him in DC for I was like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, sir, let's wait for the senior chief results. And if I mess around and make senior chief, why don't you go ahead and put me in that nine billet and get me a chief? Because I don't need a boss, I need help. I need someone who's gonna help me chop wood, right, and get after it. And sure enough, that's what happened, right? And I remember I was so ticked off because I wanted that incentive pay to be a DCCM on an aircraft carrier, and they wouldn't let me have it because I was a senior chief that wasn't paid. And I was like, okay, hold on. I'm about to do this, and I don't get the same benefit. Okay, Roger that moving on. Anyway, we get to have this conversation all day. Yeah, but I want to talk about you, Mike. So first off, you're in Chicago right now, you're on travel with your boss, and you were were you born and raised in Chicago?

Mike Kaszubowski 11:53

I was, yeah. I was born in uh in Mount Prospect, Illinois, which is the northwest suburbs, and uh spent 18 years here, went to school, graduated, and graduated June 4th of 1995. And June 7th of 1995, I'm standing at attention at Great Lakes, three days after I graduated.

Gary Wise 12:10

So, did you just grow in a first of all? What do you remember about Chicago growing up, right? Because Chicago's got a lot of publicity right now, and it's not always good. They've always been a big city, they've always had history, right? But it also is a city with a lot of character, bro. You've got the White Sox, you've got the Cubs, you got the Bears, you've got um, you've got this heritage of Chicago that's so much more than just the narrative right now of the bad things. How was it for you as a kid growing up in that area in that community, man?

Boards, Records, And What Really Counts

Mike Kaszubowski 12:41

Yeah, you know, and I think back at that time, you know, Chicago has always been a melting pot of people, right? I mean, you when you look back in the history of Chicago, the people that came here, they came from boats, they came from overseas. And being in the Midwest, it was just a melting pot for everyone, all ethnic groups, all backgrounds, all races, all religions. Growing up, you know, there there was segregation per se. There were certain cities that were more Italians, there were more uh Caucasians, there were more Spanish, there were more African Americans. But I will tell you, everyone got along. You know, even in high school, there was segregation per se in the in the Mestex, you know, in the cafeteria. But everyone kind of got along. Chicago has had a bad rap for the last 10, 15 years uh for a lot of different reasons. And crazy thing it is, it's still a melting pot, right? But crime in this state is is is is out of control. And, you know, being apolitical, you it it a lot has to do with who the governor is with the mayors. You know, we've had governors that are in jail. Uh, you know, when you go back in the history of time, you know, mayor Daly and his grandfather that was the mayor and his father, like there was a history, and Daly was a really good mayor. And then after him, it just started getting a little bit worse, worse, worse. There were for Chicago, there's been problems for many, many years. Um but everyone wants to come here because you know, you can go downtown and go to you know, to little China, you can go to the Polish section, you go to the Italian section, you can go to the Spanish section. Downtown still has all this history, and it's it's really interesting and really good. The problem is there's a lot of crime, but there's a lot of crime in a lot of different states, too. The reason why Chicago gets probably a lot of attention is because every year we tend to, in Chicago, have the highest uh you know, murder capital parade. And and that gets all and and they had projects years ago. Pabrini Green was a famous project that nobody dare to go to. They tore that down years ago. Now it's a beautiful subdivision. It just takes time. And uh, it's unfortunate because Chicago is a beautiful city, it's a beautiful skyline, you know. Uh Michigan Avenue, Lakeshore Drive, all the history of Chicago, the great fire in Chicago. The problem is it's overrun by the crime. And um I don't know how they're gonna fix it, if they're ever gonna fix it. Um we live in a different world today than we did a long time ago.

Gary Wise 15:14

Yeah, no, no, I think it's coming, man. I think the world is going through a renaissance of sorts. And I was in a business meeting yesterday, and me and my partners were talking about how we're gonna approach a big bid that we're making for a large organization to help them with their leadership development, right? And one of my partners came in, like, no, no, we need to go straight high technology, get it done as fast as possible, leveraging it. And my other partner was like, no, you got it exactly wrong. Like, we believe that that's actually going the wrong direction when it comes to people. We need to use that part of the process to get collect data. But when it comes to the people, we need to slow that down and give attention to the details and talk to the people because we believe that people are recognizing that they're missing that connection, right? And that the people are reawakening to yes, it's great to get information quick, but I also want to connect. And that's why you see a lot of people turning to faith, people turning to crime stoppers, if you will, right? I remember in the 90s and the cops was like the main show on TV because everyone wanted to watch the good guys stop the bad guys, right? And I think it's coming back around again, where people are kind of getting tired of not feeling safe going to meet with your family, right? And I think crime's always been a thing. You know, I talked to my students about that. I said, you know, mass shootings are not a new thing, right? Unfortunately, you look at the Wild West, people have no idea how bloody it was as this continent was getting settled, right? Like it was bloody. Like there was brutality. I mean, you look at the wide earth days and the guy, the cowboys that were wearing those red sashes, right? You know, you bring 10 of your guys, I'll get 10 of my guys. We'll shoot it out in the okay corral, bro. It was that, right? So the difference is evil is always gonna be there. It's how do we respond to the evil? And then, of course, technology changes everything because everybody like makes it super loud. So I'm praying for Chicago. I think they're gonna be okay. I hope it takes a turn because I know that the country, Chicago is a direct reflection of the country, right? It just is. And so if they can take a turn, then that means the country itself, the whole boat is starting to start to take a turn, right? It's an indicator.

Mike Kaszubowski 17:38

Yeah, I know I I don't disagree at all. Like it's it's just interesting how how much politics plays into everything going on right now. And you know, I do my best to is still active duty to be apolitical, but it's just interesting what you see on the left, what you see on the right, which niece channel you watch, and then what people are saying. Uh, but my heart goes out to the people that uh are getting you know broken into or stolen or or raped or murdered for no reason whatsoever. You know, crime is out of control, I think, worldwide. Um, and really it is. And, you know, um, just a couple days ago down on Michigan Avenue, you know, a bunch of people ran into a Macy's or a Nordstrom and took thousands of dollars of stuff. And now you have police, and other people are just and I don't want to speak on behalf of the police, but they just let them walk out because there's more of them than there are the police. And it's it's just it's it's it's unfortunate. You would like to go walk downtown Chicago by the river, by Navy Pier, see the skyline at night, but then you gotta always look over your shoulder. Like, why is this person following me? It's just it's an uncomfortable feeling.

Chicago Roots And Changing Cities

Gary Wise 18:49

It is, and it takes a special kind again, service industries, right? So when I think service, I think military, I think law enforcement, I think fire, I think emergency responders. And when you're ever broke, damaged, in need of help, you want them to come running and you want them to do a good job, right? And it's heartbreaking when these people that are in it, not for the money, right? People always talk to me about how much I'm worth, bro. It's incredible when people are like, Gary, why did you spend so much time in the military? You could your story, your like it's it's rip Mike, it's crazy, bro. What's out here in the world, it really is. And and I'm like, y'all gonna understand, I wasn't in it for the money. Like, I love the cause, I was a righteous warrior, like I was serving my country and my generation, our generation, from that the mid 90s till the late 2000s, but we was in it for the whole damn shebang, right? Yeah, no doubt. Especially once the war on terror hit, it was game over. Like it was a I went to Iraq, I went three different times, right? And I took Marines to Iraq each time, it came back with less Marines each time. And We did our job. We played our position and I served with people that were freaking heroes. And then, of course, the Navy never stopped operating, right? Everybody else gets those slowdown periods. They get those decompression periods. Not I, says the United States Navy. Especially not in the Seventh Fleet Theater of Operations, because as soon as we get underway, we are right in our opposition's backyard, right? And we are unfortunately always reacting to their freaking saber rattling. And that's but but we choose that life because a lot of us don't know any different and it's comfortable for us. Yeah, no doubt. We like the op tempo, right? When I did my San Diego time, I was going nuts. I was going nuts, bro, because I was like, everybody complains like this is hard, but where everyone's getting off at 2 30 every day because they got to beat traffic. Right? When I was in Japan, when I was in Japan, that was never a conversation. Because of course, traffic was not our main priority. You could be the hario in 25 minutes almost every day. You could walk the Dragon Bell Housing 15 minutes. So we could work to 1800 every day, bro. Don't matter.

Mike Kaszubowski 21:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you have the public transportation that's just phenomenal in Japan.

Gary Wise 21:17

Yeah, that was never the problem, right? Our problem was we might get underway tomorrow, right? We might get underway soon. I I I've never finished an availability that was delayed, right? It was almost always early or damn near on time because SRF would not allow it to go another way. Because their workers and their conviction to the program was you go to Hawaii and it's like, bro, can y'all help move the boxes faster, dog? Like, you know, we didn't have those challenges in Japan because it was 100% military. We didn't have steven oars, right? It was just us doing the thing. You know, I just and I look at the different things out there in the world and I tell my students like, if you want to live a life of service, don't do it for the money, do it for the community, do it for the pride, do it for the right reasons because you're gonna always be unfulfilled if you thought you were just gonna get a good paycheck.

Mike Kaszubowski 22:13

No doubt.

Gary Wise 22:14

Yeah, it's just never gonna, you're never gonna find what you're looking for. I said, but on the reverse, I want to inspire you to want to serve, become a teacher, become a person that cares, get into the clergy or the ministry, help people find things that make life better because some people will never find those millions, but it's pretty easy to become a firefighter. It's pretty pretty easy to become a cop. And you can have a damn good career as a law enforcement officer. But it but then I feel bad for those guys when they try to do their job, and then the people that break the rules, nothing happens, or they don't get held accountable, and then they become like, all right, then why am I gonna put myself in the position to do something when that's not really gonna change? So I think that again, I think a renaissance is coming. I'm loving right now what I'm seeing with the with with Cash Patel. Again, you know, when I retired from the Navy, I literally went almost a year without watching any news, bro. Oh, really? I was like, well, because Kaz, you know, when you see behind the curtain how much money is really moving in the world, right? I remember when I was up at the Seventh Fleet and we had millions of dollars for travel budget, just millions. And I remember the chief of staff just swacking everyone's travel budget. Like, we're not doing that no more. Boom! And all of a sudden, all the fun trips were gone because guys were just going on willy-nilly trips all over the place to go talk to people about things, right? And he swacked it. And I remember finding out how much money was available and and then being like, hey, CMC, this is your travel budget. Do you want to go anywhere? I'm like, no, I got a wife and two kids, bro. I don't want to go nowhere. Like, why would I travel just to travel? No, I've got virtual, we've got phone calls. Like, if I'm gonna go somewhere, I want it to matter and be part of a mission critical thing, not just to do something that really doesn't make sense. And then I found how much money was out there, and I was like, bro, no wonder we're broke as a country. We've just got buku bucks, you know, and that was on the heels of the whole fat leonard thing. And again, having lived through that part of Japan where I was on the GW when we were doing that, we were going to the ports that unfortunately I found out were back room dealed for us to go there for people to get creative, right? And it's just the life that the world that we live in. So I left it all alone for like a year, bro, because I was so cooked. I was cooked.

Mike Kaszubowski 24:44

You know, I was yeah, no doubt. It's um and then go fall into COVID, right? And we learned very quickly in the COVID that we don't need to travel as much. We can do a lot of stuff online coming out of coming out of COVID now. It's interesting to see how many people in the military, you know, and civilians probably too. Um, all of a sudden we're coming out of COVID, and it's like, I gotta travel now. I gotta travel now. I can't I can't do this teams with a Skype thing. Well, hold on a second, man. Like for the last three years we've been doing that. Yeah, you know what I mean? Um, so it's interesting how the world took a huge spin. But there was a lot, there was a lot of money for travel back in the days. And you know, I just hope you know, people went on travel for the right reasons, but you and I both know that you know they're there, it is what it is. Let's just say it like that.

Gary Wise 25:35

Yeah, it is what it is, right? And I'm not, yeah, 100%. I all right. So when you joined the Navy, what was it about you in high school where you were just like, I'm gonna leave right as soon as I freaking graduate? Because you said it, graduate on this day, I'm at boot camp on this day. Why did you know like the Navy was gonna be your thing?

Service, Sacrifice, And OpTempo Reality

Mike Kaszubowski 25:54

Yeah, that's an interesting question. I get that question quite a bit, actually. And so when I look back in retrospect of my time, I did not do well in high school. Not that I was a problem kid, I just I didn't want to study. Like, you know, I had C's and D's to be open and transparent with you, man. Like, I just studying wasn't my thing. I worked at a grocery store here in in Chicago called Dominic's and Jewel. Uh, those they're still around to this day since I was 15 years old, making like $346 an hour. So 15, 16, 17, 18. I was working at a grocery store as a bagger. And I knew for a fact when I was about junior in high school that college is not for me. My brother went off, he was older than me, went to college, and I was just like, I'm not studying. Like this, I didn't even like high school. Like, I just it did it didn't it didn't catch me, you know, it wasn't my thing. And so I was thinking, well, what am I gonna do? And then my mom's like, you gotta do something, or you ain't staying here. Like, you either get a full-time job or go join the military. My dad served in the Coast Guard. My dad was in the Coast Guard for like 37 years. He was in the reserves, but he was also active duty, and he was in the Iraq war. And so I went to a couple of recruiters and and talking to them. And you know, back in those days in the mid-90s, it was, yeah, come on, you can the famous, you know, when I sell the navy, sit down and watch the Navy SEAL video. I didn't want to be a Navy SEAL, like I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I was like, that ain't for me. So as I got bounced around a little different recruiters, I went to the Navy, and um I remember my my recruiter, he was actually pretty good. And they sat me down, took the pre-ASVAP test, did okay on that. And then he says, What do you want to do with the Navy? I said, I don't know. He's like, Well, you got to come up with something. Here's what you qualify for. And I qualified for like damage control, hull technician, a whole bunch of these rights. I'm like, I could be a firefighter. That sounds cool. So um, and then you know, it was interesting. I graduated and I was like, why wait? Let's just get this adventure going right now. And so I did. Interesting, I was only three people from my graduating class that joined the military. I'm still the only one in the service, which you know, next year I retire, but uh the other two left very quickly. One was in the army, one's in the Marines. You're talking of a graduating class of over a thousand. Yeah, and so at the time I was like, let's just let's just get get this thing going. Hindsight being 2020, I think it was a really good decision for me. Um, because I just hit 30 years of service and um I'm 48 years old. And while other people were smoking weed, drinking, spent that, you know, before going to college summer break, I didn't. I went right into the military. Do I wish I would have had a break? I don't know. I don't know if the break would have been good or bad for me, but at the end, um they said, hey, we can get you in this date. And I was like, well, let's go. And the rest is history. Um, it was uh June of 1995, and I remember it because it was one of the hottest recorded summers in Great Lakes and in Chicago. And I remember that uh like every 20 minutes we had to dump the green C VR canteen on our heads because it was so hot. And coming back to boot camp this week, as we you know sponsored a division, you know, Great Lakes, while it looks the same, is totally different than when you and I went to boot camp. It's completely different. And so, man, things have changed, and I think a lot for the better. Uh joined the Navy, went to uh got out of boot camp, and then I went to this thing called BEC, Basic Enlisted Uh Engineering Common Corps, where they sat for me for like six, seven weeks on the NTC side, where I learned basic engineering, and then I went to damage control A School, which is long closed by now, in San Francisco and Treasure Island. Yeah, and I was uh the second to the last class to graduate before they shut Treasure Island down. Um and then when it was time to pick orders, I almost picked orders to Guam, actually, is the Frank Cable. And then I remember calling my mom back in 1995 after almost graduating uh DCA school, and I was like, mom, where's Guam at? I don't even know where Guam's at, you know? And she's like, Oh, you're so far away, and there's a lot, there's a lot of bugs, and you know, come closer to America. Can't you go to like San Diego or something? Sure, let me take a look. And then I saw Japan and I was like, Yeah, I'm not going back to Chicago. You know, I don't want to I joined the Navy to go try an adventure.

Gary Wise 30:22

Yeah.

Mike Kaszubowski 30:22

And I went to my first ship, USS O'Brien, DD 975. And so uh it was January 7th, 1996, when I checked on board that ship, and I'll never forget it. Um, I'll never forget this. It was a Friday, I was in my whites. Um, back in those days, you know, you were allowed to travel overseas in a uniform. And so I took my whites from California. Back in those days, you were able to smoke in the back of the plane, too. Man, we've come a long way. And so uh I get up there, I show up to TPU uh where the bus dropped you off. I'm by myself for like 30 minutes. Some chief comes up to me and says, Who are you? My name is you know, fireman recruit Kazabowski. What ship are you going to? What command, O'Brien? Next thing you know, there's an NC1 there in a government van. They take me to the ship, my sea bag, they put me in supply burden, not even engineering burden. It was a middle rack in supply burden. And so it was late at night. I kind of get settled, whatever that was. I'm in my rack, uh, a little nervous, first time on a ship. Don't know even know where to navigate, don't know how to get to the mess decks. They just threw me in a rack. It was late at night. And I'll never forget I heard a bunch of supply guys, where's that new kid at? Let's go get that new kid. And I was like, I was like shaking. I was like, you guys are kidding me, no way. And so uh they didn't get me. They picked me up the next morning. The rest is history. You know, you mentioned something earlier, Dave Singer. Dave Singer was my first chief in the United States Navy. So, yeah, now retired Mass Chief Dave Singer, DCC Dave Singer was my first chief in the Navy. Uh, and and he was a tough cookie. Um I learned a I learned a lot from Dave. I could talk a lot about Dave, but uh he was tough and uh interesting. And then the rest is history. And then uh I remember going through Insurf, it was the first inspection we went through. Back in those days, we had OBAs, and you remember guide rods, and I do so hard to change out. And uh you just did what you were told, you know. I I sweep, yeah, I you know, you didn't look at the chief, you you listened to the first class, and you swept until you were told not to sweep anymore. It ain't like that anymore.

Gary Wise 32:35

You know what's funny is I've actually got an OBA in my classroom because uh they shut down an ROTC unit, and my officer went down there and they had an old E B D, a Scott EBD, they had an OBA, right? They have a they had a uh an MCU two pop-gas mask. So he brought them all back for me. And I was like, all right, so for nostalgia's sake, I'll keep these around, but you don't know the trauma that I got around these damn things. You don't know how many times I I remember falling in ballast tanks because I'm on an OBA on air, you know, because we're inspecting freaking smoke in a ballast tank because some Japanese dudes at the bottom of the tank welding without a hobard shit, right? And so they were just the worst things in the world for us to rely upon for fire, you know, uh fighting. Hey, real quick, I want to go back to Treasure Island. Here you are, this young guy out of Chicago, you're in San Francisco, Treasure Island, with dudes in A school, right? Which you're all young, you all got paychecks, you're all going through this cool damage control school, and you're sailors now. Did y'all go out and get some liberty?

Mike Kaszubowski 33:46

Interesting, in 1996, when I or 95, excuse me, after graduating boot camp. I think I graduated around December of 1995, but for two months I was at uh Treasure Island. Uh that was my first experience at Fleet Week. Oh, that's a good time there. It it was, um, and it was interesting. So they had to uh the sailors were asked to go do a parade and stuff like that. They took volunteers, so me and a couple buddies rose our hand. Now I remember going by Pier 39 in Treasure Island on San Francisco, Pier 39, the wharfs, and everyone, I was so underage at the time, I was only 18, 19 years old, just giving us alcohol and drinking. It was so yeah, it was so awesome. Um, but it was an experience in in those days. It was like, wow, people really respected the military, you know, and and everyone wanted to say thank you for your service and this and that. And then uh everyone wanted to get to know you and stuff like that. It was very interesting. Um, but again, the times were a lot different back then, too, right? So just what we got away with back then, you're not you're probably not gonna get away with now, but it was very interesting. Um, and then being on Treasure Island, uh, which has a unique history in itself, right? And so that was very interesting. Very interesting.

Gary Wise 35:07

I can only imagine, right? Because I some of my best liberty I ever got was as a young sailor at some little hit of a school for like two or three days, and you just kind of get with the guys or gals from your class and be like, hey, let's go out tonight. And then next thing you know, it's like four in the morning, you're like, oh my god, we got to get back to the building. Like people don't talk about resilience. Resilience is getting back to the shit before freaking Revelly and being in line for quarters in the morning and still working all day and not complaining about it, right?

Mike Kaszubowski 35:35

And yeah, we do that all the time, and then when I got to Japan and got things situated, and you know, everyone took me out. I I have plenty of stories of you know going on on a Friday night, going up to Rapungi in Tokyo, catching that first train back. Uh, and as long as you were there for muster, um, and you know, you still work hard, play hard, and uh, and if you smell like alcohol or you look like you had a rough night, a chief maybe worked you a little bit harder. Yeah, and uh and then you you got through it and then you you went on. If you didn't show up, you were hammered too.

Gary Wise 36:09

But and Cass, that is, I believe, part of what makes the United States Navy so damn strong, at least out of out of out of space. I tell my students all the time, like, look, you gotta remember the United States Navy was formed by pirates, in my personal opinion, because the Caribbean was with a hotbed of action, right? First of all, the United States is in an insurgency against freaking England to declare themselves free, and they need a navy. Well, guess who's on the piers? A bunch of dudes that will you give them a minute, they'll go down and plunder, and they'll be right back, right? In those days, they would just pay, you know, you watch the movie Pirates of the Caribbean, Jack Sparrow goes in the bar, like I'm hiring, boom, and people start signing up to go for the ride, right? And so these pirates just chose to fight for a cause. And then when they got disbanded after they shut the Navy down, guess what? They probably went back to plundering again down in Cuba and crap. Because what else are they gonna do? Then they hire them back again to go do the six frigates and go do the thing. So they've always had an independent streak that you need to go over the horizon on a ship, right? Let's just put on it. You're not a normal person does not go out in the middle of the ocean and just hope it works out, right? No, there's gotta be some some some some craziness in there a little bit to take on that challenge. And I read an article about about three months ago, and it said, Where did all the sailors go? That was the title of the article. And it hooked me because that's where did all the sailors go? And they talk about all the haunts that were the Navy's haunts, you know, Sailor Town, Sasebo, uh the haunch in Yokosuka, the trophy lounge in San Diego, San Diego, all these different spots that were known for Sailor Hotbed, that were known for having a lot of people. And the article says they're still there. The sailors quit coming. The sailors quit coming. And it's because, like you and I both know, because we got to this world where it was like you couldn't step out of line a little bit because if they would hammer you. Because if they didn't hammer you, then they would get hammered because you're not being consistent, you're not holding the line. You've got to hammer everything. And we we forget that our name, I want people that are so guys that are so tough, they can go out drinking the night before and get up the next day and fight a fire. That's what I want. I want them dudes, I want those guys, I want those people that are not afraid to go out the night. And I'm not saying become freaking dead because you drank I've seen that, right? I seen a DC2 one time. We pulled into Thailand, we pulled into Thailand. This guy was back on the ship by like eight o'clock at night with blood alcohol poisoning, right? Like he was cooked. They brought him back to the boat. He was like in medical with IV stuck in him. Bro, man, six hours later, you're done. Like you're doing the most. You've got to have older guys on a watch out for you and take care of you and all those things. But guess what? He lived, he didn't die, he came through it. We all gave him crap. He went to mass for freaking being belligerent out in town and all that. He, I think he even retired as a DC too, right?

Mike Kaszubowski 39:32

I think he even got to 20 as a DC too, you know, and generational though, isn't it? It's generational.

Treasure Island, Fleet Week, And Sailor Life

Gary Wise 39:39

Something to be said for those kinds of guys. Because you know the thing about that DC too, I don't want to say his name because they don't, well, Seidel, screw it. He's out there. If you listen to Siddell, I still remember you, bro. And the thing about Seidel, he was strong as an ox, bro. He wasn't a muscle fitness magazine cover model, he wasn't what you would have pictured. As the epitome of a sailor, but bet you money he would drag you out of a space if you were hurt. Bet you he'd come get you. Bet you he would come help you carry that hose up the ladder. Well, to do the maintenance, right? Yeah. Those are the sailors that I want to serve, that I want to be, that I wanted to be with, right? When people started worrying about the creases on their freaking cat, on their utilities and all that, like I I appreciate it. I do. It takes a lot of commitment to be that guy, but can you put the same level of commitment into learning your craft? Can you put the same level of commitment into doing into learning why the maintenance is wrong or right? Can you put the same level of commitment into fixing the equipment and learning how to troubleshoot it and not just well, let's put a job in for it, you know? And so when I look back on that time period when we joined, that's how it was. But we also didn't have technology like we have now, right? Dude, I remember grease pencil through maintenance boards, right? Remember that crap? Yeah, but write it all out on the damn grease pencil on the board. It will, it was a lot different. So, Kaz, when you got to that first ship in Japan, your first three was it three years you were on that ship, or did you do things?

Mike Kaszubowski 41:15

Three years, 95 and uh 98.

Gary Wise 41:17

So you did three years, you didn't do the extension for another year, you did three years.

Mike Kaszubowski 41:21

No, um, I had a four-year contract, so um I left as a DC too, and um I was like, I don't know what I want to do with my life anymore. You know, I I think everyone back in those days had that point. Am I gonna get out or am I gonna stay in? But I kind of like being a D seaman, and you know, I made some mistakes and I had some trials and tribulations like everybody else did, but I really enjoyed being a D seaman. And then um I really enjoyed being in Japan. And so um I said, let me see, and detailing back in those days was so different than it is now. So uh that's a whole you could hours worth of talking about the difference.

Gary Wise 42:05

It's crazy.

Mike Kaszubowski 42:06

It is so uh they're like, hey man, you want we got orders to the USS Cushing, another DD. And I was like, in Japan, same platform, pretty good at what I'm doing. And I did, and I took it. And then the rest kind of history, I re-enlisted and reenlisted and reenlisted, but yeah, I went from the O'Brien for Cushing.

Gary Wise 42:24

So you went so you went back to back DD and then to O'Brien from Cushing. God, you know what I love about that? I hate about that, right? I'm gonna tell you what I love and what I hate about that. I love that you had expert expertise on the platform, and so you were an asset the minute you walked on board the ship, right? As a chief, God, nothing better than a second class who knows their stuff, right? Especially on a similar platform. Like, I believe the Navy should put looking making platform being an NEC vice other crap, right? Like if you're a good DDG guy, keep that dude on DDGs because I've seen people be DDGs their whole career, they put like on a carrier, and just the management problem is a whole different mindset, right? Vice, and then the maintenance piece of it. Because look, on a DDG, you really got to do more with less, right? On the carrier, you got to do more with more, and it's almost a more they're just different problems.

Mike Kaszubowski 43:23

Sure.

Gary Wise 43:23

And so I feel especially rates like damage control, where you could just go to any platform depending upon what happens with orders, right? I mean, I was a later guy, I'm an ampfib guy, so there's differences on an amphibi when it comes to like ballasting, dealing with all of those things than you would have if you were only like a cruiser or a DDG guy in particular, or a frigate guy, or an LCS guy, or a whatever. And so I could see you walking on board immediately having immediate knowledge and immediate ability. Growing up in Seventh Fleet, I saw people do that, right? They go back to back to back sea, but that's a lot, it's a hard work keeping the edge up, right? Keeping keeping your energy strong because that opt tempo is exhausting, right? And they'll let you do it, they'll let you do it, they'll let you do it to yourself. The Navy would let you do it, and I would tell people why I like this good seashore rotation is because you need time to unwind a little bit and focus on other areas of your life because sea duty is freaking intense, bro. Like, and especially in Japan, but I can also see like when did you meet Mickey? Did you meet her on your when did you meet Mickey?

Mike Kaszubowski 44:38

1996.

Gary Wise 44:40

So that's another piece of the conversation, right? It was a really relationship with a with the with a Japanese lady, and a priority is keeping her comfortable and happy. And not always are they immediately wanting to maybe relocate out of the area because they've got family, they've got friends, they've got community, all those things, right?

Mike Kaszubowski 45:00

Yeah, and that's that was interesting, yeah, very interesting. So I met Mickey, who I'm still married to this day, 27 years later, and three kids. So um I think that was part of the decision a little bit too. But at that time, that's she's gonna kill me for saying it. I was I loved her, but I wasn't like committed, committed. Does that make sense? So I was still trying to figure out this navy thing, and and I really, really, really, really liked almost borderline, loved Mickey at the time, and then I just fell in love with her and I was like, I'm gonna do one more tour in Japan. And then it wasn't until the Cushing days when I got married and then I had my first sons. But then everything exponentially just went forward from there. But it was an interesting time, and also to your point, back in those days on the O'Brien, we we went to Fifth Fleet. I mean, I did eight and a half month deployment on the O'Brien in the Fifth Fleet. There was a DDG recently that chopped over to Fifth Fleet from Seventh Fleet, but it it was it's been years since that happened. Yeah, but back in the mid-90s, O'Brien and Cushing, when I was on the Cushing, we deployed the Fifth Fleet in the NAG and the SAG, North Arabian Gulf, South Arabian Gulf. Um, that was that was the that's what you did. You you just didn't you didn't do a three-month you know patrol, what they call them now, come in for a you know, a SIA or a CMAV, get fixed for three, four weeks, and then go back out for three months. No, no, no, no. You went out eight months and then you chopped into Fifth Fleet and you crossed the line in Singapore, Shelback, you went to Thailand, you went to Hong Kong, uh, you you went to you know Dubai, Bahrain, you you operated out there. 100% very different to now.

Culture, Liberty, And The Making Of Tough Sailors

Gary Wise 46:36

It is, and where people don't understand is back in those days, and still it is to this day, if if they needed it, they would use them for sure. I have no doubt, right? But it's just how big of an of an influence China and Korea have become, right? It keeps them out there. But when I was on Bellowed in 1998, we went to we went to the Arabian Gulf because of Desert Fox, right? And we were supposed to go to Hong Kong for a three-week underway. We came back home six months later because we went, they they rallied us over there, and then we did another, I did 11 months one year on the Bellow underway from Sassamo. 11 months and one year away from home port, bro, because of the Arabian Gulf and Desert Fox or East Timor, and they're killing Christians down there. And that was the op temple. And I remember, I remember when I was at Seventh Fleet, and I'm sitting in this room, this big room, and these guys are all planning the schedule for the ships for like the next three years. I'm just like, oh my god, like is anybody, and this is after all of the bad things that happened in 20 freaking 18, right? Or 2017. And I'm like, is anybody in the room recognizing this is not a good plan? Like, there's no Liberty ports, there's no home time, like we just told them they're gonna get better rotational power. Meanwhile, all you chuckleheads are throwing freaking spaghetti at the wall, seeing how much of it you can stick. And the problem with that was, and you and I can both remember the Navy before 9-11, right? There was a different, I mean, yes, we operated, yes, we got underway and went to those places, but we hit ports, bro. We hit ports all the time, all the time, man. When I was on Bellowwood, yeah, I spent 11 months away from home port, but as a young sailor, I probably hit about freaking 11 ports in that 11 months minimum, right? Now, I might have been hitting Hong Kong more than not Hong Kong because Hong Kong is kind of a crappy one to get into, but Singapore, we're going there. Thailand, the Marines want to go there. Like we were getting ports, whereas nowadays they don't even care about ports almost. It's just like do the mission, go out and record that other ship with a video camera for freaking five months straight, and then let us know how that was when you get back.

Mike Kaszubowski 48:59

Yeah, I I definitely I don't disagree. I think it's um, you know, back in those days, but to your point, you know, the I guarantee you uh back in those days, the 11-month deployment, nobody could there were probably people that complained, minimal. It's just what the Navy did. And now, you you know, when when a carrier or a strike group or an independent deployer deploys for 10, 11 months, it's front page news. And and and there's it's a big deal. It's very interesting where we used to be and where we've come. Two things that I think changed the you know, the time with the Navy. One generational change, obviously. Two China wasn't that big of a big deal in the mid-90s, right? You know, they were still uh they were communists like they are now, but they were they weren't the biggest threat. And and so the biggest threat was it in the in the fifth fleet area of operations. But uh Pat Leonard changed the whole dynamic of Liberty Ports, and so um all dynamic, especially for the Seventh Fleet AOR. And so um I lived through that just as much as you did. And in fact, uh, you know, I was investigated for that. Um, and the only reason why I was investigated, short C story, was when I was the CMC of the Antietam, my boss, Captain Tom Dicey, we pulled into uh Philippines, three, four-day port visit. We got underway, and uh he calls me up to a stateroom after seeing anchor detail, and he's like, Hey, did you buy this for me? And I said, By what? And he said, This cigar box that said Captain Tom C. Dicey on it. Uh, thank you for coming to you know Manila. And then there was like 50 Cuban cigars in there. And I says, I absolutely didn't buy that for you. Um and he's like, Don't lie to me. I'm like, I didn't buy that for you. He said, Who put it there? I said, I don't know. Call the Supple. Supple comes up there, he gave Supple a real hard time because he really believed Supple did it. Supple had nothing to do with it. Turns out it was the Disbo. The Disbo got it right before we're lifting up the brow from the Fat Leonard staff. So, you know, we got underway, and Captain Tom Dice was like, What are we gonna do with this thing? I says, I don't know. He's like, I'm not accepting this as a gift. So uh we all smoked the cigars uh as a crew. He lit up, he led a couple days later, and then I I trashed the the cigar box and I threw it overboard. But what what got me got him and I into this mess is fast forward, I was the base CMC in Signella, Italy now. NCIS comes to my office and says, Hey Matthew, uh, I need to do an interview. And I was like, uh can you tell me why? And I was very close to NCIS because as a CMC, you work for him all the time. He's like, I don't think you're in any trouble. I just but we gotta do this by the book. And I'm like, wow, could this be by? He's like, I don't think it's a big deal, but I have to do it. But what happened was Fat Leonard sent an email to the husbanding agent asking if Captain Tom Dicey got the cigars. So when Fat Leonard was indicted, they got all the emails. So they figured out Tom Dicey, Mike Jacobowski was the CMC, the exo they interviewed. Nothing happened first because we did the right thing. We we gave it to the crew, then we got rid of it, but it was never accepted. But but the fat Leonard scanner changed the dynamic of port visits, and then they went to Navy contracting, right? So now to pull on a port visit, it had to be a Navy contractor, which was with FLC at the time, and buy the book, and it changed it. So it was almost dare I say, harder to pull in a Liberty port because of now all the rules and regulations than it was in the past. And then the other thing that changed was COVID. COVID, you know, completely changed the world of port visits.

Gary Wise 52:49

Yep, 100%, man. I I think both those things are true, and I want to talk COVID more here in a second, but I remember so after 9-11, my next ship was USS Ogden out of San Diego, right? And here was a West Pack. Here was a West Pack. We would go from San Diego to Pearl Harbor, Pearl Harbor, Persian Gulf, no stopping in between, don't pass to go, no collect $200. We gotta go offload the Marines, offload all the gear, then we go sit off the coast of freaking Iraq and do meals on keels for chaos and abot, or we would go do some special. We did some really cool special operations stuff, right? Like I'm talking like super secret, sign a piece of paper, don't talk about it for five years. Like I saw some cool stuff off the Horn of Africa, freaking people talk about Somalia. We've been jacking up Somalia, right? That it's not new. We've been over there, and then we would get done, come back, hit Guam, clean all of our gear off, go to Hawaii, pick up all the people for Tiger Cruise, go to San Diego. And I remember thinking, this is a crappy underway, bro. Like when I was on Bellawood, we'd be out for four or five months, but we'd be hitting ports, just like think, tink tink, you know, South Korea, northern Japan, Thailand, Bali, Singapore, maybe Australia. Yeah, right. We would hit all these ports, these stateside deployers, because it was just operational focus. It was not about liberty, it was about getting out there because we're at war. And then I feel like, yes, Seventh Fleet was still maybe not all the way plugged into that because they were still focusing on their AOR, and Fat Leonard was a corrupt son of a gun. And so was a bunch of other senior Navy leaders that was all playing games, right? Freaking the good old boys club or whatever you want to call them. They were playing riding helicopters from the ship to the person's place or whatever, like crazy stuff, right? And you know what's crazy about that? For as dirty as they were, one of those guys was my commanding officer on board the George Washington, right? And he was mean, bro. He was so mean. He was so I remember one time we did an inspection and we did really good on the inspection, right? And I'd only been on this ship like four months, and we did very, very good. I thought we did well for me only being there four months. And he's like, damage control is a cancer on board this ship, and I'm gonna eradicate them. And I'm like, whoa, like damn, bro, like, sir, we did good. Like we did, I was like, I was like, Master Chief Larry DeBeau was the head of the inspection team. I was like, Larry, tell him we did good, bro. Like, he doesn't understand, he's just over here going high into the right. Then I found out later, like, dog, you're dirty. Okay, bro, now I want to throat punch you. Now I want to take you in the alley and fight you because don't be dirty and then be that mean on top of that, bro. Like, come on.

Mike Kaszubowski 55:53

Yeah, like yeah, like how dare you, you know. I got one too. Uh, my first DCA in the Navy, ensign Steven Shedd. So Steven Shedd was my first VC in the Navy, and he was a really good ensign VCA. Um, he went up the ladder, he made commander, he was uh the CO of a DDG in San Diego. My buddy sends me an article, indicted, he went to jail, wife and a couple kids, and I was like, wow, what happened to this dude, man? Like yeah, like wow. And then there was the uh SKC who I knew from HTG who went to Naples, um, wife, small kids, indicted all for Hennessy and all those other crap. So that flat leonard scandal, I I don't even know if it's done. Like they're still they are still going and going and going now. Um, and it took a lot of flag officers down. It took everyone. I mean, like they got it, and uh and and you're right.

Platform Expertise And DC Community Truths

Gary Wise 56:59

I think coming out of the war on terror, because if you look at the timing, right? They started putting all the toys away um 2012, right? Thousand the during the Obama years, they start boxing everything up. All right, everybody, we're no longer gonna be so operationally focused on war. Now we're gonna be more focused on uh I'd say the rules of the sea, right? What are the rules of the sea look like? And what are the rules when it comes to resources? And what are the rules when it comes to freedom of navigation and all those things, right? Because meanwhile, China's freaking building islands in the middle of the ocean and laying claim to our our friends' resources, right? And claiming things. And so, and but then as they're doing that, people started getting willy-nilly with their focus and started taking freebies. And what they forgot was that technology had really technology in the war on terror was like neck and neck, right? Like it was like we used they used the war on terror to really ramp money in the technology field. Because I remember we went from having blackberries and next hells to freaking in like eight years, right? Tech technology flew, and Japan was always ahead of all that anyway, right? Japan was we had phones in Japan that people didn't have in the States years ahead of time because the technology was flying, and then people just idle hands, idle hands, and then people really thinking they were that. I remember being in a change of command in Japan, or we'll do George Washington, and it was 2012, and the hats the ladies were wearing, you would think they were at the Kentucky Derby, right? You would think because it's like I tell people sometimes being in Japan is like what it would have been like to be in Pearl Harbor before the attack on World War II, right? Like where the military leadership was the aristocracy of the island. They were the leaders. And if you were a politician, you wanted to be involved with the leaders of the military. And who's who in the zoo? I remember we were at the change command of George Washington, and my chief engineer didn't know how to do the sword thing because he was a he was an ROTC, not a not a naval academy guy, right? And so he's like trying to work on the sword thing. Well, my DCA was former enlisted who went to the naval academy, and now he's an 04, and he's a freaking shaker and mover, right? He's a ring knocker in their world. And I remember DCA goes walking by. The DCA signed him to escort people to their seats, right? As an 04. He goes walking by, escorting his wife to a seat, and Chang was doing a sword, practicing a sword. He's like, What the hell is she doing here? Why is she here? DCA was like, right? Because he was he was moving and he went from being the DCA at George Washington. To Atg Westpac, director of training, right? And he he was working, he was working those angles. And unfortunately, sometimes in those kinds of environments, people will start believing the hype, they'll start thinking they can get away with stuff. And then once that domino falls, it all starts coming out, right? Oh, yeah.

Mike Kaszubowski 1:00:21

Yeah, I mean, it took down many. It's an interesting story. Um, and man, did it give the Navy a bad rep. I think that's the the hardest part is like, you know, um you think about taxpayers, you think about people send their kids off to the military, pick a branch, it's the safest, you know, most uh ethically honest organization. And then Fatliner breaks, and you realize how many people took gifts. And you know, we've always had ethics in the military. We always have. And um, whether or not you choose to take those ethics or believe by those ethics was a choice. Even today it's a choice, right? And so, you know, even now, in my position, you know, a lot of like this travel here, I can't never go on travel without having an ethics opinion. And it's never you knock you can't do this, mass chief, or you you you you you can do this, mass chief. It's here's my recommendation. It's the onus is on you, the onus was on them back then. But freewheelie days back in those days, people were just doing it left and right. They were you know, um it's it was and when like to your point, when that domino fell, man, did it fall hard. And I guarantee you, when the first news story broke, there were plenty of officers, junior and senior, and enlisted, you know, shaking in their pants. Oh my god, I went to this party, I went to this dinner, I took this hotel. But then you started reading about the prostitution and all the other things that naval officers and enlisted were doing while married, and that just gave the military a terrible, terrible, you know, sick feeling. And um it was bad. It was bad.

Gary Wise 1:02:15

You know, and I think to that point, a piece of that again, it was our culture because you and I both grew up out there in the Seventh Fleet AOR. We know what it was like growing up going to those ports, right? And I look when I went back to the fleet again. So where did you make chief at? Did you make chief on your second or third boat?

Mike Kaszubowski 1:02:33

Uh I made chief on shore duty in 2003. At uh back in those days, it was a float training group firefighting school in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. And then when I yeah, so 2003, it was ATG. Then it broke it went to C and E right before I PCS.

Gary Wise 1:02:49

So you went from the first ship to the second two ships, and you went up to DC one. Now, on the second two ships, was that a whole swap, or did you do a full three years on each ship?

Mike Kaszubowski 1:02:58

No, so um I was on the O'Brien and then the Cushing, and then I went to uh shore duty and Hawaii I made chief in 2003. Then I went to my next command, which was the USS Gary in 2005. And that was on the correct, and then from five to seven, I was on the USS Gary, and then the Gary went back to the States, and then McCampbell came out. So I went from an FMG to a DDG.

Gary Wise 1:03:26

Okay.

Mike Kaszubowski 1:03:26

Went from a you go to a Cadillac.

Gary Wise 1:03:29

Yeah, but you were in a committed relationship with your wife for those second two ships for sure, right? Like you were in a relationship, and I would and I and I say that because as a young man in the military, especially in the Navy, it can be crazy out there, right? You can hit some of these ports, especially you're coming from hometown USA. You go to some of these countries like Padia Beach, Thailand, or freaking Whisper Alley, Okinawa, or whatever it is, right? And people could lose their damn minds, right? People could, and it's like as a chief, when I got back to the fleet, I'm married. I wouldn't even go on liberty, bro. Like I had to be very careful who I would trust myself with because it was wild out there. And I always wanted to be in the place that I could I could be there to support the people that were coming back, trying to figure out how did I let myself dive into that deep hole. Because you start drinking, and the next thing you know, you're doing crazy things, and then you're you're back on the ship and you're like, what was I thinking? What was I doing? My mom and dad didn't raise me to be that way. I'm not this kind of like, what am I? And and I've always been there for them. And then on the reverse, we've unfortunately always seen even senior people out there doing their thing, right? And I remember as even as a master chief, I would be counseling guys because they would come talk to me about geobatching and missing their family and struggling, or how many times did somebody make a bad choice, right? And now they're in your office, they're crying, and you're just like, bro, like I got love for you, dog, but we gotta just wait and ride this one out, homie. This is gonna be a tough ride, you know. And when I look back on how those people made those decisions, it's because they possibly never matured to the point where they didn't realize, like, that's not what people really do, bro. Like, regular people are not out there trying to make music videos at 47 years old with bottles of Hennessy and like crazy freaking people. Like, that's not what adults do, right? But they are they're out there trying to fulfill some fantasy that they watched on some movie or that they grew up doing overseas, or they never even did it when they were younger, so they're trying to do when they're older, right?

Mike Kaszubowski 1:05:47

Yeah, it is. Um, I uh I took up golf and and I got in, I really enjoyed golf and I went out drinking and had a good time and all that stuff too. But um, I always told people, even as a CMC on ships when we pull Liberty Fords, I don't care what you do, it's not my problem. I said, but um as soon as you bring it back to the boat and you make it my problem, and then then we're gonna have a problem. Yeah. So they're all grown men and women, they're gonna make a decision, they're gonna make a choice. And I'm not I'm not judge and juror, you know. So don't put it in my hands and don't put it in the command's hands. Um, but yeah.

Gary Wise 1:06:26

Brother, I remember so my first CMC tour, Ashland. I get there, I get to the ship, literally six days later, we're getting underway. So I get my family just in housing, just in enough time. Erica's got loaded furniture, we're going underway. And we're pulling into the first ports, Thailand. And we I've been on the ship like three weeks, like maybe three and a half weeks. And I pull my chief's mess and I pull all the gunnies and everything into the mess, right? With me and the Sard Major. And I'm like, all right, guys, look around the room. Look around the room. Who's gonna do it? Who's gonna be the one that that makes us all look bad? Who's gonna be the one that lets this team down? We've been in here playing spades, we've been in here talking shop, watching Sons of Anarchy. I want y'all to have fun. I'm not saying don't get out there and enjoy Thailand. I'm just saying look to your right, look to your left, and can we make a commitment that none of us is gonna be that guy? And they're all like, oh yeah, Gary, we can do that. We got you, bro. Yes, CMC, blah, blah, blah. Cool. We pull in. I don't leave the ship at all, bro. My CO goes on Liberty with the XO. Nobody wants to go on liberty with me because I'm the new guy, and I don't want to have any fun anyway, because evidently, you know, I don't care. I don't mind. Y'all leave the mess myself. I'll watch freaking Game of Thrones, I'll email my wife. I'm good, bro. I didn't come out here for liberty. I came out here to work, right? I'm new on the job. Y'all are gone. I'm gonna be working on my quails, I'm gonna get my quails up. No problem. We get underway, and I'm thinking we're okay, right? And I'll never forget, I'm walking down the P-Wave from getting underway, like literally, they just let the tugs leave. And I'm walking down the from the boat deck into the port side walkway on the LSD, and my MRC, my machinery repair chief, says, Hey, Master Chief, can I talk to you for a minute? And I yup dive into the side, got a sailor in there, she's crying, right? And I was like, What's going on? And they lay out this whole story that remember, everyone's got liberty buddies, there's a curfew, all the above, that one of my chief petty officers left his Liberty Buddy at one point, goes to this EM3's apartment where she is with her fellow EM3, who's her guy, right? And he not only refuses to leave because he's trying to block the EM3 from getting with the other EM3 because he thinks he's got a romantic relationship with the female EM3, but at some point puts a bottle opener up to this kid's throat and threatens to open him up. Right? He's he's a chief, he's E7. And I'm like, wow, I'm sorry that happened. Do me a favor, don't say anything else to anybody else that I have it, I'll be back. Are you okay? She's like, Yeah, I just really want someone to know because it was really scary, and now they're back on the ship, and he wants to beat them up. And I'm like, Yeah, all that, all that. I'm surprised it didn't already happen, bro, because if you put a bottle opener against my throat and threaten to open me up, I don't get bro. Me as the third, I was buckwild as a third class, as a fireman. I might have gone to prison for what I probably would have done to you on the backside of that, and that kid didn't do that, right? And I remember I go up to the bridge wing, and the captain's literally in his chair on the bridge, enjoying the view as we're going underway. And he's and remember, I've only been in CMC for like three weeks. And he's like, Hey CMC, how's it going? Like, sir, do you mind if I speak to you for a second? I just got a question. He's like, Oh boy. I was like, Yeah, yeah. He's like, all right. And uh we go out in the bridge wing, I tell him what I know. He's like, Okay, master chief, just sit tight. Later on that afternoon, set flight quarters, Hilo lands, dude gets off of cargo pants, dude. The mess, everyone is in the mess. Gary, what happened? What happened? Because everyone knows when NCIS gets off their Hilo, right? And that chief, um, he's on watch. He doesn't know what's come out, he doesn't know what's going on. And when they start pulling people up for the investigation, they come to my office and he's crying, bro, because he's got a wife and kids back in Sasebo, right? Got a wife and kids back in Sasebo, right? He's crying. Gary, Gary, I just don't want, I just I want to stay here, I want to do the job, I want to do the thing. I was like, look, bro, I get it. Trust the process, right? Trust the process. And I'm thinking to myself, like, I want to jack you over right now. Like, you are a bad guy. Like, you put that young lady in that position. We're grown men, she's 20 years old, right? You're supposed to be a father figure, mentor for her, all these other things, not being a weirdo. And then, oh, by the way, you got family that you just did dirt on, which is jacked up, right? And the process runs its course and they get him off the ship, right? But that was three weeks into my CMC tour, and I can keep going, Kaz, and I know you can too.

Mike Kaszubowski 1:11:46

Oh, yeah.

Gary Wise 1:11:47

And so it's not just there's not a monopoly in any one area, it's just that people lose their ever-loving minds when they get out there and start drinking. I tell this to my students like, look, if I could give you any advice, it would be very cautious around alcohol and be careful, very careful who you allow yourself to be around. And don't ever forget who you're supposed to be when you decided you wanted to be somebody. Because I've seen people throw it all away off of one day of bad choices.

Making Chief In 2003 And Season Lessons

Mike Kaszubowski 1:12:19

Oh, so have I, yeah. And you know, I like a good bourbon and a glass of whiskey. You know, I do. Um, I think a lot of it's maturity and age, too, right? You know, uh, you know, back in those days, again, I'm not saying it was the right thing to do. People got a little bit crazy back in the days, and then we have changed socially, economically, diplomatically, um, generationally throughout throughout the years, right? And so then you have the old school mentality. You have people like me and you who've been doing this for a long time, that are still in uniform, that go to Liberty Port. Well, back in my day, let me show you. Well, back in your day, that may have been acceptable, or you got away with it. You can't get away with it now. And um also back in the day, you know, when you did something stupid, you it was taken care of right then and there, and then you moved on from it. Meaning you could rebound, I think, back in the day, a lot better than you can nowadays. There's just not a lot of tolerance for that crap anymore. And I don't think there should. We're an all-volunteer organization, we're not begging people to join the military. You sign your hand and you volunteer to come in, and then the navy's a lot different today than it was back then, a lot different. You know, think about when Subic Bay was open and and all the those crazy Liberty ports back then. It's not like that today, but the sailors are different too, they're smarter. This generation is way smarter than our generation. Technology, technological advances. It's just it's it's so different nowadays. But I just have a lot of stuff on ships and things that it's like buyer's remorse, you know. Just like you, I've told the chiefs, hey, go out and have a good time, X, Y, and Z, but just don't bring your problems back to the ship or the mess. And they do, and then they're in the office crying, oh, woe is me. I I drink too much. Uh alcohol is not a defense, man. Like you uh you made a decision, you know.

Gary Wise 1:14:21

You forgot you were the adult in the room, bro. That's my thing, right? Like, you forgot you were a daddy, you forgot you were a husband, you forgot you were a man in my mind is supposed to be there as a leader, not to be there as the person who's leading people down the wrong path. Because then you're just evil, bro. And when you're evil, you you can't be a part of a service organization that has to do things for the greater good. It's not going to freaking work, bro. We're not gonna be aligned. And to your point, I look, I think where the Navy, where a lot of organizations get it wrong, is they let these processes just draw out so damn long, right? No, get it over with quickly. We all know he's guilty, it's done. Why are we so that dude went on to go back to the MC Emer for a year and fight the case, right? And then went off for another eight months at the MC Emer fighting the case of the discharge, suppressing my billet the whole time for a chief petty officer on my ship, mind you, because the Navy says, Well, you chose to have him leave. No, bro, he's freaking, he should have lost his overseas screening, got sent back to the states, all that. But we couldn't do that because some Jag would have said it was freaking in violation of some rights or whatever it was, right? And then here was the best part. A couple years later, I'm still CMC of the ship, and I get a request for overseas screening for him as a male dependent because his wife got a job for MWR in the base, and the installation wants to know do we recommend them for overseas screening? I told the base master, hell no, no, my sailors try to walk around this base every day and see this guy. He's still lucky this young third class ain't cleaned his clock. Right? Bro, if I'm a dad and I find out you put a bottle opener to my kid's neck and you threaten him, I'm gonna be making a trip to Japan. Right? Because guess what? When I was a kid, I remember one time when I was like 15, I got in a fight with like a 19-year-old guy. And I remember about to fight this 19-year-old guy, and one of my big friends comes into the room. He's like, Why are you gonna fight him? I was like, because he said something, blah, blah, blah. He's like, No, no, no. I got this. He's like, You look, bro, you're 19, I'm 19, let's go, me and you toe up. Like, we'll both go to jail together. You're not gonna fight no 15-year-old, right? And those are the chiefs that I like. Like, I like those guys. Like, you're not gonna just come over and take advantage of this young person. And it's not just chiefs, I'm just using that as an example. It's people in positions of authority, responsibility, and opportunity that mishandle that trust. And it's not just the Navy, because I I will tell you, I've been a teacher now for three years. Bro, my first year as a teacher, it comes out that a dean who is responsible for doing administrative management of kids in class is doing sexual things with students in his office during the school day.

Mike Kaszubowski 1:17:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gary Wise 1:17:30

And I was just, they told me it all comes out, and they're looking at me, and I was like, Man, I wish I was surprised. Y'all don't even know what I've dealt with in my life. Like, it's sad that it's happening, but here's the thing the students knew. And I tell the students the same thing that I tell people in the Navy. The sailors always know. The students always know. So I tell the students, y'all should have been told me. Y'all should have came and told me this guy was a perv. This guy was a weirdo, because I would have gone out there and freaking handled that. That's not that's not acceptable. And his case is still going on, bro, two years later through the system. Like, in my mind, I'll just be honest with you, let the family members of those young girls have atom because they're gonna be screwed for a long time because they're gonna be conflicted with how they look at physical relationships with men for a long time because they were groomed by this dude from the age of 14 until there was 18.

Mike Kaszubowski 1:18:27

It's sad. Yeah, the guy in you know, uh, someone that was in a position of authority and and uh especially a teacher. It it's that's sickening.

Gary Wise 1:18:35

Yeah, it's so it's not just a military thing, it's around the world. And yeah, I watch them do these stings of people that are freaking trying to hook up with kids online and do stuff, right? And again, I am surrounded by children every day that are so motivating, so inspiring, so connected, so united, bro. You want to talk about having different areas where they could be seg segregated and they're not, right? My RRTC program, all kinds of flavors. And you'll have you'll have people dating you would have never seen dating. It's almost like the military, bro, where you know people are all kinds coming together and getting together. Go to a Friday night football game, and the community is just like that. But then you have you have you have bad people in the world that do bad things, right? All right, so getting back on track, because this is why I like talking to you, because we can go into all kinds of fun stuff, and we've all seen it. Um, when you made chief, what year did you make chief? 2003. So I made it in 06. So you were three years ahead of me. All right, make it chief in 2006 or 2003, uh at Shore Judy in Hawaii, were you a part of the big island wide initiation process?

Mike Kaszubowski 1:19:49

I was. There were 31 of us, and um and there was a lot. Um Yeah, it was the last year they called it initiation. Yep. Officially initiation. You know, they call it initiation now, but let's face facts. Uh 22 years ago, the word initiation had a different meaning to it than the word initiation now. So I'm not old school, I don't think by any means compared to the people that made chief in the 70s, 80s, or the 90s, even. But it was the last year they called it initiation. It was 2003 on short duty, and there were 31 chief selects. And uh that was an interesting time. And at the time, my wife was pregnant, uh, which made a lot more stress in both of our lives. But yeah, yeah.

Gary Wise 1:20:35

I bet. And number one, what a great place to make chief, right? Hawaii. Just the heritage. I love the Navy heritage in the different areas. So like Yoko, Sasebo, Hawaii, Pac Northwest, San Diego, Virginia, Florida, like every one of those areas, fleet concentration areas have so much heritage, right? That I respect. Like I always have gone to those places and like wanted to hear about how it was there back in the day because they all have their own unique cultures for our Navy. So when you sit the board or you go to these events and you meet people from all over and you get to compare notes, right? You're gonna talk about things that are the same platform but just different challenges, but you can understand it. So making, I think making chief in Hawaii is a freaking that's a great place to make it, especially in that big group, because you're dealing with people all over the island, but then there's a lot of traveling, there's a lot of driving, there's a lot of commuting, there's a lot of all that stuff, right? Doing a lot of fundraising back then, too. Yeah.

Mike Kaszubowski 1:21:40

Yeah. It was interesting. Um, you know, we got pinned underneath the banyan tree in Fort Island. So in 2003, we marched from where ATG was on Fort Island, where all the guests and people uh were waiting by the banyan tree. And interesting enough, so I got pinned to chief in 2003 underneath the banyan tree. And then my last CMC tour prior to coming to Japan, I was the CMC of Naval Surface Group Middle Pacific.

Gary Wise 1:22:10

Yeah.

Mike Kaszubowski 1:22:10

So fast forward 21 years, 20 years, my son Sean, who's now a naval officer, was in uniform and he re-enlisted me for my final time underneath the same banyan tree that I was pinned to cheat.

Gary Wise 1:22:25

I, you know, I you know what's so fun about that, besides the cyclical, besides it's just the full circle, is you've always had that eye for doing things that are just freaking meaningful, right? And with people don't know the whole storyline behind it, if you get the chance to break it down, people are just like, oh my god, like you put that much thought into it, and you'd be like, oh yeah, I did. Like, but but that's who you are, bro. You speak Japanese, you you you have that, and look, to be a good CMC, in my opinion, you have to have that eye. You've got to be able to brand it, you gotta be able to sell it to people, why this matters and why it's important. And it's not about you, it's about the people that are gonna see that storyline and appreciate it, right? You're not just a CMC retiring, you're a sailor who has a family that's multi-fricking multicultural, who now has a son who's a naval officer and who's freaking there re-enlisting you. Like, if you can't, that's America, bro. Like, not only is that America, but that's FDNF, like two extreme levels. And when I say that, it's because I'm super loyal to FDNF because I love the communities that support our sailors overseas and their families, especially in Japan. I remember when Tomodachi happened and how hard that was and that on that community, uh, and how how hard it was for everybody, and watching them rally and they they've always been there for our community whenever we needed them. And I hope that we're always there for them when they need us, right? That partnership. And I feel like that's a great representation of how that blending of those two cultures came together, and your son is the epitome of what we would like to see going forward. God knows what we'll do with it, right? Like, who knows, right? It's up to him. God bless, good, go do great things. Um, but but you you created a life, and every human wants that for their kids, right? They want to see their kids. I told my my students the other day, I said, look, if you don't try to do better than your parents did in life, you drop the bag, bro. Like it's not their job to get you to do better. You should want to pick up the bag and say, I got it, dad. Let me run. And and I remember when I told my dad, I was like, you know, I love you, but I saw every mistake that you made, and my commitment to you is I'm not gonna make the same mistakes. Done. Like he was like, That's good, bro. Like, what else could I ask for? Sure, sure. You're gonna you're gonna leverage my experience to go out and make your life great. Um, so you come through Chief's initiation, you put on anchors, ATG. How many years do you have in the Navy at that point?

Mike Kaszubowski 1:25:00

Eight.

Gary Wise 1:25:01

Eight. Did you know yet you wanted to go to the command program?

Earning EL Letters And Owning The Plant

Mike Kaszubowski 1:25:05

No, I will be honest with you. Um, I was deathly afraid when I made chief. Um, you know, I made chief in 2003. I've been in the Navy eight years, two sea commands and then on shore duty. And so when I made chief, um one, my season was a lot different too. You know, I was beat down a lot. I was the youngest. I was 26 years old, and I was eight years in the Navy. So of the 31 Chief Selects, not only was I the youngest of them, I was also the least amount of time in service. And so um I'm not saying I had a bad experience. I'll never tell anybody I had a bad experience. What I'll tell people of my experience of initiation, it's just a different experience than them than one other people went through. Um, but I struggled. Uh, you know, my wife was pregnant, third kid at the time, um young 26-year-old. And then everyone was telling me during my initiation what how I'm not going to be a good chief because I was too young and I didn't have experience. So there was so much going through my head. And then there was the physical training, the breakfasts. You know, we didn't have teaching to the creed in 2003. Like the seasons were just put together by people of generational chiefs, senior chiefs, and master chiefs, that this is what they think will make a good chief. Yeah. And so um, I don't even remember going to training sessions. I don't, I did PQS, but the PQS was not like what the PQS is of today. Um, so it was a very interesting season. And there was absolutely a kangaroo court for final night. I went to the hospital twice because I couldn't even move my arms anymore because of the push-ups. And I was told by my sponsor, um, you better not go light limited duty. Just ask for Motrin. I mean, that's what they told me. And so when I went to medical, I said, You can't give me light limited duty, give me Motrin. Then that's what they did. And so you just figured out how to get through it. Um season was just a lot different back then. I'm not telling it's bad. There was things I learned. There was things I was like, what the hell? That that made no sense to me. Um, and then when I got out to my first ship on the Gary, man, I was intimidated. I remember that. It was um it was 2005. I met the ship in Okinawa. They flew me to um Okinawa. They got me down to a White Beach, Okinawa, and the ship was anchored out the Gary. And I had my seabag. I was a chief at the time. I get on the the boat, you know, uh the rip, they they bring me out to the Gary. They took uh the line, they pull up my seabag, they brought me right into the chief's mess on a frigate, FFG 51, USS Gary. And it was right after lunch had secured by the time I got on the ship. And if you've ever been on a frigate, the chief's mess is very small. There's a little lounge area, then the little eating area, and then the birthing was behind it. And they gave me a cold cheeseburger, and all or majority of the chiefs sat around and just started looking at me. They're like, eat. I'm already a chief. You know what I mean? It's so different than what it is today. Man, was I intimidated. Like, what am I gonna be a good chief? Am I be a bad chief? My HT1 and other people had more time in service than I did. And and there was a loyalty to the chief that I relieved that led differently than how I was going to lead based off my experience and how I was brought up in the Navy. And so um we got through the turnover, and then uh, you know, my HT1 was rough, rough behind the edges, and we finally clicked when he saw the light, and then I was there to help him, not hurt him. But yeah, I struggled as a young chief. No, no air fans are. I think even nowadays, you know, we're making chief at five, six, seven, eight years of the Navy. They struggle too. I mean, what I tell these young chiefs now that make chief, even they're in the season right now, it's the only difference between me and you is experience and time. That's it. I mean, I'm no better than you, you're no better than me. It's just experience. And I can't give that to somebody. I could talk to somebody until they're blue in the face about how to lead, what leadership books to read, how to do this, what to do, what not to do. The reality is what I can't give them is experience, trial and error, learning from your own mistakes, making a decision and then faulting, and then picking yourself back up. You talked about resiliency earlier. Um, I didn't realize what resiliency was until I was on the fits, you know, the post-collision CMC tour. Um, I didn't know what resiliency was, what it meant, and it took a different meaning on for me. The only difference between you know me and them is just experience. But I struggled as a young team for 26 years old. Um, to be perfectly honest with you. I get it. Well, I don't I think anybody would have at that age, you know what I mean?

Gary Wise 1:30:12

100%, man. I think that uh adding on to what you just said, besides wisdom, you can't give them the ability to be consistent and you can't give them the ability to have the work ethic, right? They nobody can put the work in for you. And a lot of people struggle, at least in our Navy or in all the armed forces, I would say, when they hit that rank of like E67, because it's really just a very visible space in your career. And if you're not able to do the work, you're gonna be, it's gonna be a problem. And and people struggle with that. And what I've found is that if they can be consistent and be willing to put the work in every day, they'll probably be okay. Oh, and humble enough to ask for help, right? And humble enough to know they don't know everything and not be afraid of being looked down upon. But I got to the GW, I was a 12-year senior chief, right? I mean, I got there as a 12-year chief. Put I had been an ATG for two and a half years, and I had made chief on the end of my tour on board the Ogden. And so I get there and I make senior chief, and I remember Marty, Marty King was my CMC on the on the GW at the time, right? And I'm still trying to get Marty on here. Like, I would love to have Marty on here for a conversation. And I get Dave Singer too, that'd be a good one too. Um, but Marty, he's like, Skittle, you just made Singer Chief and you got another three years on board this aircraft carrier. Gosh dang it. And I was like, what the hell? And he was he was so annoyed. He let me throw out my CMC PQS and doing a whole nother PQS again. Because he's like, no, I don't accept that. Do it all over again, right? And because I he understood that I was gonna go through some things, that seasoning that you were gonna need that time, and I was gonna be dealing with a bunch of other senior chiefs and mass chiefs that had like 20 years in the Navy already. Oh, yeah, yeah. And and getting comfortable in your own skin. Because you know what? Even though I was insecure and uncomfortable, I would still lock in and go head up against anybody because my guys deserve that, right? And for my people, I was willing to throw down. And that was what it was all about. And that's probably what HT1 saw about you. It was like, okay, I got it. You're in the Navy longer than me, but do you have a seat at the table during lunch? No, okay, I do, bro. So what do we need to know so I can go in there and advocate for us to win, right? And when he recognizes that part, you're gonna be okay, right? But if I've had people that were first classes when I was at the GW, almost everyone in my first classes had more time in the Navy than me.

Mike Kaszubowski 1:32:38

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Gary Wise 1:32:39

You know, I'm 12 years in C and she they're all 15, 16, 17 in your first classes. Sorry, bro. I'm you're all taller than me, too. I don't care. Like, I don't care. We're gonna win. We're a team, we're the DC man, and I'm or the repair division or the shop or whatever. That's fine. And I feel like the best leaders, and this when I was a CMC, I brought this to the table as well. Don't lead by division. I don't want to hear whether it's engineers and writers. I don't want to hear that. We are working for the captain who owns everything. We need to be united as an organization because people that would D seamen, I always felt like we were kind of ostracized in engineering. Like we were always kind of, unless we qualified all the engineering watches, we weren't looking at as being as good as, right? And I would get into arguments with the leadership when I was on the carriage. Look, look, bro, I appreciate you want me on watch down there. But here's the thing my job is to lead the re-entry into that space after you've all given been blown up. How can I do that if I'm down there? Nobody else here has that training that I have, nobody else here has that requirement or that responsibility. I don't mind getting the qual because I want to be a team member, but I've got to qualify other people to my level so that I'm comfortable telling the captain that you've got people to respond to the casualty. And oh, by the way, whenever the bells ring, I expect every engineer to hit the deck with the flying squad, not just us. If we're not doing that, then like we got problems, bro. Yeah.

Manning, Maintenance, And The 3M Grind

Mike Kaszubowski 1:34:12

I think it's ship specific too, right? So you speak of a carrier, which is a different animal and beast in itself. You know, for me, I was on the Gary, and um, to your point, uh, our division was a was a side thing, right? I mean, the the GSMs, the GSEs, the Enginemen, that was the bread and butter of that ship, specifically the engine, because it was a diesel ship, right? So um, you know, it's very interesting. You know, we had we had gas turbine generators, but we also had backup diesel engines. So, you know, uh I got EO qualified on the Gary, and um and it wasn't to your point until I got EL qualified that our division kind of you know got its you know light out there. And I always wonder and think back, well, why was it because I got an EL letter that our division started getting the line line or street cred? And then the DCA got EL qualified, and then it turns out me and him were six on six off. And so then I became the department L CPO, and then I was running the GSEs, the GSMs, and Engine, and I they didn't like it. Um, why isn't our division? And then I always thought to myself, well, if you Chiefs were so damn good, then you you would have been the department L CPO, but I don't have to tell you. So it's it's I think it's ship specific too.

Gary Wise 1:35:38

Um I will tell you D Seamen, you know our community as much as I do. You sat all the boards. Look, D seamen, unfortunately, are either really, really good or they're really, really in trouble because it's such a visible program, especially when it comes to MOB D, like mobility defense, when it comes to 3M, like the maintenance program and the DCPO shop, right? I tell people, you take me to any ship, I don't care what class, bro. Show me a DCPO training, show me a damage control training team brief, and show me a zone inspection, and I'll tell you the culture of that ship. Because that's all I know.

Mike Kaszubowski 1:36:16

And yeah, we you know, the DC rate specifically, it's interesting. It you know, back in in the mid-2000s, early 2000s, um, you were never gonna advance without an EL letter. Yeah. And and the epitome of going from chief to senior chief in engineering was an EL letter. Part of the reason why I got it. But the other main reason why I got an EL letter was because I was told I couldn't get it. And so I had a chief engineer that says, You're just a DC man, you're not gonna be the EL. And I said, Well, at least allow me the opportunity to try. And he says, Yeah, good luck. And then the funniest thing is I got qualified. The GSMC, Frank Marcos is his name, he makes LDO, makes warrant officer, and now he's got to put me on the watch bill. Hilarious. And then uh who relieved me? The DCA, and then at times the Chang. And I can remember uh I used to do the walkthroughs to the plant, you know, and then before I took the watch, because that's how I was trained to do, you walk the plant prior to take the watch. Yep. And there was oil and bilges and rags and this crap, and the Chang was on watch. And I used to go up to CCS, who's a lieutenant at the time, and say, I'm not taking the watch. And boy, was he pissed. He said, We need not taking the watch. I says, You need to have your watch standards, you know, and MER1 and Ox 1 clean up it before I take the watch. And he would have sworn he he would have almost lost his mind. I said, That's your standing order, not mine. I'm not taking the watch. Part of it I did it because just to give him a little, you know, right back at you, what you told me what I wasn't gonna do. But second of all, is I how come you as the changing aren't holding your watch standards accountable? Because when you turn over for me, I I walk the plant too. And if it ain't ready for turnover, I'll tell the oncoming watch I'm not ready to turn over yet. We got some work to do. Yeah, very interesting times with the Navy. Very, very, very much.

Gary Wise 1:38:04

Was she an LDO? No, that's crazy. Like, you're not even an LDO chief engineer, you're gonna make a comment like a D seaman's not gonna do something because they're a D seaman. And who turned him up on that, right? Someone taught him that. So no doubt. Yeah, and for me, again, I was I would tell people if you have a problem with the D seaman, you can expect a short dude with a ball head to hit your door. I'm coming through hard because I I came up undesignated. I came from the pit. I was I worked with the B, I was raised by the BTs, right? They they were pissed when I struck damage control. I hit it. I didn't tell no one I was striking DC because they would have all freaking. I was a golden child, right? I was on every watch. They loved me, right? Because I was smart, I was small enough to get in the steam drum and strong enough to turn the wrench, right? They could they I would go into anything. I didn't care. I love being a snipe. I struck damage control because I was a DCPO too, right? Collateral duty. I was like, them dudes have a shop with a TV. They gotta watch National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation. That sounds like fun, bro. I don't got no shop, I got the pit and my rack. There's no in between, right? Um when I came back to the fleet as a DC too, I tried to go down to the pit and get my my quads, the MMCM. He's like, Oh, you he just put me on the watch bill to be a BT lower level. I'm like, look, bro, no, I'm trying to get my E out letter. I'm trying to get my qualls up. I don't mind staying on watch. Oh, you're just a D seaman. Okay, you know what? I'm off the watch bill. No, you're not. We need you on the watch bill. Yes, I am. I went to the freaking, I went to I wish I had a nickel.

Mike Kaszubowski 1:39:46

I wish I had a nickel for everyone every time someone told me, you're just a D seaman.

Gary Wise 1:39:51

Yep, yep. So I remember my DCC was in EOW at the time, right? And I'm like, look, I'm running ER9, I've got a whole world. Center to take care of all the DCL managers in the ship. I cannot afford you to be six and six because this guy wants me to be stuck in a position. If there was growth and an opportunity, I would sacrifice. He's telling me there's no growth, no sacrifice. Okay, bro. And this is what I would mentor DC men. I would tell him your path to success is not through engineering. We have too many command programs. Your path to success is through the command. Make the command safety program a good thing. Make the command damage control training organization a good thing. Make the command 3M organization a good thing. The BCPO. And if you I remember, so what's funny is the year I made chief, uh, I got selected to be Sailor of the Year that year. And I had only been a first class for a year. Like literally, I got paid and was Sailor of the Year like back to back months. Right. And then I made chief like the following summer. And when I'm in the mess after initiation's all said and done, and they were like, You want to hear about the Sailor of the Year board? And I was like, Well, I yeah, I mean, whatever. They're like, bro, what's so funny is engineering came in, you were their ranked number three first class, and every other DLCPO ranked two is number one on the ship. And so we all laughed the top snipe out the door because they're like, bro, you're just a hater. You're just a hater. Putting in the work and doing all the things. Because I was making, I was helping everybody else win by helping them with their DCPO maintenance, by helping them with their damage control training, whatever it is. But I think the damage control rate is undermanned by about 80%, right? The United States Navy needs to, if they're unless now, some ships do it better than others. Some ships do it better than others. But if they're not doing the collective, every like every department head gets their spaces ready to go to sea and they take ownership of their sea, their space. If they're putting it all in some lone DC chief, then he needs like 40 more people that work for him directly, right? And on an aircraft carrier, brother, I will tell you the amount of man hours of maintenance you have on board that ship, I have more maintenance than the weapons department and just my division, right? You look at all the magazine sprinkler maintenance they've got to do on all those mags, how many bodies they have just for that. That's the manning that I need in order to make that happen. Or less TAD requirements. Because I'm taking if I got 80 sailors, I'm TAD in like 30 am off the top every day for it's interesting how you look at and I haven't looked at DC maintenance in a while, obviously, but I I would imagine, just imagine, that if you total the amount of pick any class of ship, just my guess, and I could be wrong.

Mike Kaszubowski 1:42:47

If you totaled the amount of maintenance required in a week for our division, if you did it, and I'm not saying people aren't, so I would be careful with my words, 100% by the book, I guarantee there are many commands. I'm I'm probably sure that there's many commands in the Navy that don't have enough manning to meet the accomplishment of the amount of workload that goes into maintenance. And and I would say not just our division, there's probably many other divisions out there too. But manning's always been a topic of discussion.

Choosing Command Senior Chief And Minesweeper Tour

Gary Wise 1:43:22

I will tell you, and I had this conversation with Lisa Tisdale not too long ago, and I wrote a paper about this one time when I went to Senior Enlisted Academy, because I said remove man hour requirements from the three amount from the PMS cards because they're a lie, right? Don't when I tell a sailor you're supposed to do X amount of man hours theoretically in a week, right? Give or take, and then they do the math because they're not dumb, right? And an H4F daily alone is gonna blow the man hours for a few bodies, right? And so that's just a daily. And on an aircraft carrier, when I've got 20 H4F stations, yeah, right, and I've got two pumps on every station, and and all kinds and we can have that conversation. But I said my point was remove the man hour requirement because you really don't care. Just get the job done. Okay. That's I can deal with that, but it's a lot, it's it's a it's it's a say do mismatch when you act like man hours care because they affect manning. That's another falsehood. Man hours don't affect manning, racks affect manning. There's only so many racks on the boat, period. Hard stop, right? There's only so many racks on the boat. And when I hear the whole, oh, we got unfunded billets, don't tell me that. When I was on my shore duty down there in Guam, right? And I got there, I went from being 100% military to 20% military and 80% civilian. But then they would say, Oh, but you got like 60 unfunded military billets. Okay, well, then here comes the pandemic where all the civilians go home, and I'm being asked to do things with 20% military. Like it was incredible, bro. And so I again I think when the Navy looks at Manning, God bless them for trying, I get it. And look, on my ship, when I had this is where good ships get it right. Good ships, good cheese messes will figure out how to do it as a team, as a collective. We figured out, do you have to be a D seaman to do the H Bluff daily? No, you do not. You have to be 3M qualified. Right. Good. Let's figure it out. Let's chop it up, let's figure out ways to share the wealth, share the love. If because the top snipe was like, Gary, I want them to stand watching the pit. And before you and I have a fight, I want so I'm not the I'm not the leading DC man, bro. If I was him, you wouldn't win. I'm just telling you. But I'm not him. Right? So you and him got to figure it out. But here's how you can keep me out of the conversation. You guys help them with all their maintenance. You guys help them with all their general quarters drills, all their flying squad drills, and whenever ATG comes on board, they get the same love and support from you as they give you when Mob E comes on board for repair division. You do that? No problem for me, bro. Like, we're a team, and that was exactly what we did. And that's what I love about unit level leadership teams. My favorite organization in the United States Navy is a unit, right? That was a ship, a DDG, an LSD, an LPD, even a carrier, because that mess literally controls their destiny if they take it all on. Now, if they start, well, that's only that's not my job. I'm only gonna do this thing, then you guys are gonna have hard times because that's not how it works. There's not enough people to do the thing.

Mike Kaszubowski 1:46:35

Yeah, I agree.

Gary Wise 1:46:36

It's just not so when you're leaving that ship and you make senior chief on board that ship, right? And you're going to ATG next. Um what was it about your ATG time that made you decide to drop the command seeing chief package?

Mike Kaszubowski 1:46:54

Funny story. Um I I went I left the Gary in Yokuska, and then I went to ATG detachment Sastobo uh because it just it was a cool job. I'd never been to Sasebo. Um, and then in those days they gave AIP. So I was giving $1,700 a month AIP on shore duty. Oh, sign me up, right?

Gary Wise 1:47:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

Mike Kaszubowski 1:47:19

Yeah, and so it was during my time there, and then around 2009, I was like, maybe what is this? In those days, there wasn't a command senior chief rate, it was senior enlisted leader. They were just opened up after a couple years of putting senior chiefs on platforms. They were going to FFGs and then they were going to minesweepers and a few other commands. Yeah. But but to your question of what, what, why, I knew I was gonna be a mass chief. That's so egotistical. But you know, I only had 12 12 years in the Navy when I made senior chief like you. At 15 years, I was eligible. So if you even the math, I would have to have seriously screwed up or got in trouble or did something very bad to not make mass chief. And I knew that the path to mass chief was going to a carrier, and I was never afraid of it. Um, so I knew that after ATG Sassible, I had to go to a carrier to make nine. Because historically, if you look at all the nines in the DC world that made nine, it came from carriers or were successful as a senior chief on a carrier. And I was never on a carrier, but I went to Sassible, and then you know, people are like, hey man, you should check out this command senior chief thing. So I don't know, I don't know what that is. Bottom line is I was told by a mass chief that I wouldn't succeed as a command senior chief, that I was too young, and then I would fail to get in the program. Kind of like many other things in my career, tell me what I'm not gonna do, what I'm not gonna become, just motivated me to say, oh, the hell with you, I'm gonna give it a shot.

Gary Wise 1:48:54

Yeah.

Mike Kaszubowski 1:48:55

So I put a package together. Uh, the package was very different back in those days. Yeah. And then uh Rusty Staub, he was uh you know, the submarine guy, he was the CTF-76 CMC at the time. And he's the one who called me when that message came out and says, Hey, congratulations, you you were selected for a command senior chief. My first look. I don't know why the board selected me, and I don't even know how the process was back then. I don't even remember.

Gary Wise 1:49:21

But it was strict, I think it was harder, it was much harder back then. I'll be honest with the guys.

Mike Kaszubowski 1:49:26

I think it was probably yeah. I mean, I sat too I sat the command senior in chief command sea board recently, you know, a couple years ago. And um yeah, I can only imagine how it was different back then. It was probably way more scrutinized, to tell you the truth. Yeah, absolutely. Because the especially for senior chiefs, right? Because um the Navy was still new to this putting senior chiefs in leadership positions. Um, when they went on a limb to kind of see can senior chiefs do it. And then I remember I called the detailer and he says, Where do you want to go? I says, I want to go on a frigate. You know, I want to challenge. I want and I wanted to leave Japan. I had enough Japan experience. And I told the detailer at the time, you know, put me on a frigate anywhere in the world. And he's like, I got an idea for you. Uh, how about the USS Patriots insassable? I'm like, I don't want to stay in Japan, you know, like, and I sure as hell didn't want to go on a minesweeper, a platform I knew nothing about. Um hundred people didn't seem like at the time a challenge. I want to go to a bigger ship, went to the Patriots, kind of did what I was told. Um, but the reason why I came with Command Senior Chief, one, it was a challenge. I was pretty like you, egotistically speaking, I thought I was a really good DC man. If you looked at my track record, we did really well on inspections. I did I knew my rate very well. I quoted the NSTMs, the 555. I loved it. I loved being a DCC and a DCSCS when ATG would come on board. I never shied away from that. Ever. I wanted someone to come on board and shit and tell me where I was wrong. Yeah, good luck with that. And I did take hits, I did, you know. Um yes, I do know, and I took the hits personal, yeah, not professional, I took it personal. That's how much I love being a DC man. So I knew I was gonna, you know, do well as a DC man. Yeah, class was not give it a shot. 15 years later, here I am. So half of my career, I've been a CMC.

Gary Wise 1:51:34

I get it, man. I look back on my career, so I retired at 25 years and I went CM. I was a senior enlisted leader, like I was at the schoolhouse for DC school, senior enlisted DC schoolhouse, but I was a sell there. But then I went to CMC at 18 years, and I was CMC from 2016 till 2022 when I retired. But then, like you, chief in 06, most of my time was I spent most of my careers, half my career is a master chief, right? Because I was a master chief for three years before I went to CMC. I took that short duty, I took that knee. It was I took the strategic knee, and because good for you coming off of short duty going into the program, because I feel bad for the guys that go from a shipwright into the program. Because that's this is why I'm not really a fan of this new advanced to rate thing, because guys are cooked, man, when they do a good job and get promoted, and now they gotta wait. I just I feel like the Navy needs to be careful, manage their talent better, because guy, we'll let ourselves get burnt out, and then you get to the end of your career and you'll be like me and be shaking a crap all the time, and you gotta take medicine and not shake, right? And it sucks, and it sucks. And that was part of why I chose to retire because I was like, could I have done five more years? Yeah, but where would I have been at at the end of that five years? And people like me and people like you don't know how to not try our hardest, and that was what people I wind down my career now.

Mike Kaszubowski 1:53:03

You know, as I wind down my career now, there's not an on and off switch on me, you know. Like, um, I wish there was, because I have many examples and seen many people in the Navy who are like an on and off switch. I know a lot of CMCs that can turn that thing off and like, you know what, I'm retiring in 10 months. Um I don't really care. Like, yeah, what are they gonna do to me kind of mentality? And then there's the flip side of you know, the CMCs that have um done so much and are afraid to let go and scared to let go. It is a switch, but you know, I think um, you know, it's been a great ride, and and looking back, it's been really interesting, my career or your career, everyone. But you know, everyone that makes a decision to make the choice, um it's interesting.

Cruiser Challenges And Italy Highlights

Gary Wise 1:53:54

Um it is, it's just I will tell you that you don't do as much as you've done in your career without having. I mean, you hate you you handle it very well. I know that to be true. Um, you had a very good supportive spouse, which is a huge game changer because not everybody has that blessing. You've been able to have three children that all have grown up and are doing well as adults now for the most part. And you know, you're definitely continuing to do it your way, right? But there's also gonna be a point where you start to unpack it all, and there's gonna be some tough times, right? I just guarantee it, bro. Because I believe my one of my buddies, he was a retired DC senior chief. He just passed away not even a month ago. He retired right after I retired, died of a heart attack, you know. Um, our bodies, our minds really go through it through those years of high stress and high op tempo and high worry and frustration. And for me, I really get pissed off when things aren't fair, right? That really bothers me. Like I will go, I will fight tooth and nail, not because I I want the opportunity, because I want it to be fair for everybody else around me. Otherwise, I feel like it's a rigged deck. And why am I selling this to anyone else to come do this?

Mike Kaszubowski 1:55:13

Yeah, because I I know I remember when you were on the staff CMC at Blue Ridge. Uh, we won't go into the details of that, but to your point, I remember you calling me and saying, Kaz, I I need advice or just listen to me, vent, about some situations you were put in, about some sailors uh on staff and on on the ship command that I to your point, yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. And yeah, and and sometimes, you know, fair uh people look at fair a lot of different ways, too, right? Um what sometimes what's good for the goose isn't good for the ganner, but it's all in the eyes of who's who's seeing it.

Gary Wise 1:55:58

I remember, so remember that chief I told you about that threatened to open up that kid's throat. Well, guess what? As I unpacked it, I found that in that apartment, fraternization was a huge problem. And this chief had had troubles before with these sailors, and they had swept it under the rug. They had kept it inside their own community, inside their own house. So now, of course, that was the community, that was the group before me, because I'm new on board the ship. So I brought my whole mess in. I said, look, here's the deal, guys, just so you know, I only know one way to do this. This is cards face up. So we're all gonna play cards face up. But if you can't play like that, you're not gonna like being around me because we are doing this for the right reasons all the time. And I'm not going to let people get away with things. Matter of fact, I'm gonna hold you even more accountable if you are a chief petty officer, senior chief petty officer, master chief petty officer, and you should want me to not let you get away with it because I used to be an engineer or let you get away with it because you eat lunch with me once in a while. No, bro, no, bro. My NC1 when I was on board the ship was convincing junior sailors that in order to get choice orders, they might have to pay sexual favors. That happened, and he was a male and he was corrupting young men, right? And it was a weird space and time, right, for those young men. I'm sure alcohol is involved, parties are involved, and you know how, and here's the thing I had had problems, I had heard concerns, but I never had a smoking gun that I could go after, right? And this is my command career counselor, bro, that I'm having to manage. Who, like, I'm pretty sure every conversation I had, there was a tape recorder in his pocket trying to get me say something that he could try to hold against me because he would do those things. He would, and then share it with a crew. And took a sailor going on a plane ride back to the States on Liberty, having a having a conversation on the plane with a Navy spouse. That Navy spouse gets that information, tells her husband, who's a chief, he calls me, all I need. I open up the PI, open up the investigation. Before that kid lands, we get him interviewed, and then it all starts coming out in the wash. And I'm just thinking to myself, again, that's that's that stuff I don't like, bro. Like, I don't like it, and I will go, I will attack it because I want my sailors to have a fair opportunity to have the best chance to be the best American, the best service member, the best whatever they can feel. And so then when I'm back to that situation you were just talking about, what I hated was I saw people that I really respected covering it up because they were friends, right? That really bothered me, bro. I remember a guy I really respected went back to the States with his wife to go on travel, and he had younger kids and had that dude living in his house babysitting his kids. And I was like, bro, what are you doing? Like, that's a conflict for me, dog. That's my senior chief. Why is he living in your house, babysitting your kids? Did your wife really need to go with you on that trip? Like, my wife didn't go on trips, I had kids, right? I took care of my kids. That relationship is more than just professional. And do me a favor, manage that. That's why I'm here to protect you so you can do your job. Let me manage this problem. And then when that came out later and they pulled the trump card, I was like, okay, that's exactly what's wrong. And then, oh, by the way, you have a mess full of master chiefs and senior chiefs and chiefs who all know what's right. Right? They all know what's right.

Mike Kaszubowski 1:59:49

Yeah, you could do a whole other podcast on that, you know. Oh yeah.

Gary Wise 1:59:54

I'm not gonna be we could keep going, bro. We you and I got those kinds of stories all day long, but I Will I will always applaud the people that do their best to shine a light on those areas and not be afraid to call it out. Just like the Navy's got to do the right thing for Fat Leonard, right? The sailor, the sailors always know, right? Just like the students always know. So covering it up does nobody does nobody assert it just does a bad thing. It's better to call it out, have it out, and go for it. Trust the process. Good to go. So when you look back at your CMC tours, bro, because you the mind sweeper god, you guys were underway. When you were on the sweepers, they were they were underway.

Mike Kaszubowski 2:00:39

Yeah, quite a bit.

Gary Wise 2:00:40

Yeah. So how was that? Because where'd you where did you go after the mind sweeper? Did you go to Sigonelle after the mind super?

Mike Kaszubowski 2:00:46

No, I went to the to the cow pins.

Gary Wise 2:00:48

Say, how different was the mind super tour and then the cow pins tour?

Mike Kaszubowski 2:00:52

Night and day. Night and day. So um mine men, you know, they're they're unique individuals. So um, and and I was a surface guy, so going back to the surface community, um, well, the mindsweeper surface community, but you know, the smaller surface community. But uh the mind super was a difficult challenge in itself working with minemen and and just their the background and and their mission set. Then I went to the cowpins, but I went to the cowpins and they just, you know, they recently just fired some commanding officers. So um I didn't want to go to the cowpins either. I wanted to go back to the States, and I was told I'm going to the Calpins. So, you know, I had some unique challenges on Calpins too. So um, because of the history of the Calpins, the Holy Graph, and then the next CEO got relieved because he was having relationships with another senior officer's wife. So, you know, like Calpins had a kind of a bad run. And then I got there with the new captain, and then uh we just kind of made it our own. And then I did a whole swap with the Antietam. So the Antietam came out, Calpins went back to the States. We did a cruise swap actually. Um did three years between those two ships, then I went to Italy.

Gary Wise 2:02:07

How did you like Italy?

Mike Kaszubowski 2:02:09

Loved it.

Gary Wise 2:02:11

I know like it, loved it.

Mike Kaszubowski 2:02:13

I mean, you Europe is amazing, and then uh you know, it's something unique about getting on a Ryan air flight for 15 bucks and just going all over Europe, you know. Yeah, but there's some challenges too, but um, Europe is a great place. I loved it. Uh my family loved it. Um, great place.

Blue Ridge Pivot, FITZ Aftermath, And Stand-Up Commands

Gary Wise 2:02:30

I remember watching your social media post when I was in I was in Virginia Beach at the time at the DC school, and I was like, I know Kaz is just living his best life right now. He was the work hard, play hard, man. You were like the mayor of Sigonella, bro. You were everywhere.

Mike Kaszubowski 2:02:45

Yeah, I it's it was good. I mean, because we had quite a few three, four-day weekends, and you could just get on the plane and travel. Europe is so easy to travel around because it's all right there. Europe was a great tour.

Gary Wise 2:02:58

Yeah. And so after Europe, after Sigonella, what were you what were you hoping to do next, man? You'd been a CMC now on a sweeper, you'd done a cruiser, which was an a captain, an 06 CO, right? Even though from a DDG to an 06, that's not your fault. You've still got the experience. Then you go do uh a forward-deployed installation, in my opinion. And an overseas installation is much different than I believe a CONUS installation. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Logistic challenges, overseas channel, like there's a lot of different challenges there. So, but in my mind, knowing the CMC community, you've got some pretty good seasoning there, and you're hitting about your 20-year mark, probably, right? Because you went to command senior chief for what, 12, 13 years?

Mike Kaszubowski 2:03:43

15.

Gary Wise 2:03:44

15. So you're right over 21 years. What were you hoping to do next?

Mike Kaszubowski 2:03:49

Um, I don't know. Uh, I actually got a phone call or an email saying, hey, would you be interested in this job? And I said, What's that? And they said it was uh a job that you did, which was the staff CMC for Seventh Fleet. And so um, so I actually got an email and I was like, hmm. Well, they're on the Blue Ridge, Blue Ridge don't get out of the much. Uh, and you get CPAY. Um, so I was like, Yeah, I'll give it a shot. Actually, I did an interview with the COS. It was weird because normally 06 jobs, you don't get an interview, right? Unless you're on a carrier. Usually the carrier 06 major commands, they interview their CMC. But um, I interviewed for this job. I said, Yeah, you're the guy. So I went from uh Sigonelle back to Japan. Uh, and selfishly, one of the reasons why I really wanted to take that job was because the Blue Ridge went to Liberty Port, the Liberty Port, the Liberty Port, the Liberty Ports. And then now it was a good opportunity for me to take my wife with me on these Liberty Ports that she didn't have the opportunity to do from the O'Brien or the Cushing or the Gary or the McCampbell or the Patriots for that matter. And now that my kids were older, I said, Well, now Nikki will just be my Liberty Buddy when we hop around all these places. Yeah. And that lasted seven days. So I get to Japan seven days later, and then um still checking in on the Blue Ridge as the first ever staff CMC officially for the uh the Seventh Fleet. And then the Fitz happened. So then they redirected me to go to the Fitzgerald because they just relieved the COXO CMC and about 13 people. And Fitz was in really bad shape, real bad shape. And so Toby Howitt, who was the Seventh Fleet CMC at the time, pulled me aside and said, Hey, um, we need you to go there for about two weeks, just some stability. You got tons of experience, ATGs, CMCs, surface experience, and then we'll get a relief in there. Okay, two weeks turning to seven months, man. So uh so then in December of 2017, Susie Whitman at the time was the fleet master chief. She came out to Japan, pulled me aside outside um the CPO club. I remember it, and says you're not going back to the Blue Ridge, because the Fitzgerald was just on its way. We're we'll have to take her to Pascagoula, Mississippi, to get repaired. She said, You're not going back to the staff CMC job, you're gonna go stand up this new command. We don't know what it's called yet, but uh they're standing up the new command here in Japan because of the collision of Fitzgerald and uh John S. McCain. And so I left uh that job, checked out of Seventh Fleet, and went to Naval Surface Group Western Pacific as the first CMC at that command. And then did that for about three and a half years, uh a little longer than I expected. Um, but that was getting it all set up and and trying to figure it out. Then I went to Hawaii in mid-pack, and then for mid-pac here to CNFJ.

Gary Wise 2:06:42

Yeah. Looking back at that whole transition, man, um what did you think about the ability for another master chief to pull those levers to move your life around to change your situation? Did you think that do you think that's how it should go?

Mike Kaszubowski 2:06:59

You know, that's a tough question to answer. Um I I will tell you this, looking back on those times, I wish I had the ability to say no. And at the time I didn't feel like I had the ability to push back. I have always tried to, anyway, respect those that are senior to me. And so that's the Navy I came up with, you know, in 1995 when I joined. So when a fleet mass chief pulls you aside and tells you, this is what I need you to do, you just did it. Maybe you can call that a weakness on me. I don't know. Hindsight being 2020. I enjoyed my time at Naval Surface Group Western Pacific, but I also look back on that time and and say, I wish I would have had a say in that. Because I'm a little upset in the fact that I feel like, and this is just a feeling, right? Not a discredit towards the military. I felt like, well, the Navy, you owe me $37,500. That's how much CPAY you took for me on a three-year tour, maxed out on CPAY. Some people could say, hey man, you don't do it for the money, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. When you look at my time on Fitzgerald and then going to this new command, Surface Cruise Westpac, I kind of feel like, I really truly feel like it kind of turned it changed my projectile of my career. Yeah. It did. And some people will disagree with that. I'll say, no, I really disagree with that. You know? I agree. I agree, guys. I don't have again, I don't have any regret. It was an honor and a privilege to be able to lead those sailors after the collision of Fitzgerald. People that I'm lifelong friends with today. I don't, I, I don't, I don't know, I don't know. But but I will tell you is it I think it changed my projection. I am not upset. I am very happily retiring next year after 31 years, and that is a choice uh to a degree. But when I look back, I will tell you this. The jobs that I was asked to do, the hard jobs, you know, James Osborne was the detailer at the time. They sent me the fits, they keep me on fits. I like to think I was doing well enough that they didn't find a relief, that they felt confident that I could get that ship to Pascagoula. And then Naval Surface Group Western Pacific. I do know there was a vetting order, there was a list of CMCs that they wanted with qualifications. Apparently, I came out on top with my background. But I will say that it didn't really pay off in the future, if that makes any sense, in my opinion. Yeah, I'm a flag CMC. Then that's a whole different discussion, maybe a different podcast later down the career. But um, I kind of I had a lot of respect for Susie Whitman. I still do. She was in a tough position, a hard position as a fleet mass chief. But I was also raised that I'm not gonna say, I'm not doing that. And then telling the senior CMC what I'm not gonna do wouldn't have gone well for the remainder of my career anyway. So I was of the mindset, well, we'll go figure out with naval surface group, whatever this thing is, and go do my best at it. Um but selfishly, I feel like, yeah, the Navy, you know, I chose orders. I didn't get fired, I didn't have an EFMP issue, I didn't have a spouse issue, I didn't have a FAP issue. Yeah, I was doing really good as a CMC. And then you took you took it away from me. And the people that say it's not about the money, they better go look themselves in the mirror. I will tell you, one of the reasons why I wanted that job was to is the Bluers didn't get on the way that much. One, I was the opportunity to go to Liberty Force with my bride. Three, I was making CPA. Yeah, so to a degree, yeah, man, it is a little bit about the money. It absolutely is. And so um, so in hindsight, it is what it is. I don't have any negative feelings. I don't, I don't um, I'm not gonna go back on my career and say wish you, could have, shoulda, did it, because it's over.

Influence, Detailing, And Career Control

Gary Wise 2:11:10

Here's why I asked you that question, because you and I were both in that same conversation, right? You matter of fact, you were with uh the CMC that day. You guys walked on board my ship to come talk to me about coming to backfill you at Seven Fleet Staff, right? And I was on the end of a six-month deployment, right? Like I had not been home for four and a half months, and I was gonna be in Yoko for another month doing an availability, doing training. And here comes this conversation of we need you to move to Yokosuka in like eight weeks. Like, okay, I've been gone for six months on deployment. My wife is very happy in Sasebo. She has a great community there. Sure, my kids are thriving there. It's the holiday time period, and you want me to pack up my family as soon as I get home to come to Yokosuka to be this Southern Fleet Staff CMC, which okay, why? I never wanted a job like that. I don't want to be that guy. I'm happy where I'm at, and I got plans on Ash, right? But it's an honor, right? It's an honor to get the phone call. You feel like it's an honor, right? Right. He came with you, who we had never met in person, but I trusted you. I knew you, right? And he was my former sadistic CMC who had been with me through some very hard times with like my command. So I would call him. So two dudes I respect a lot. And then, oh, by the way, there's this whole Susie Whitman conversation, blah, blah, blah. So I'm young, I'm wide-eyed, 18 years as a master chief, two years as a CMC, and I'm done on Ashland, bro. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't. It was Ashland was done. I ain't did it all. It was done. I was done. Like a good CMC can be done in two years, I believe, and they can move on. Because if they do it right, that command will be good, and you get some fresh blood in there, keep it going. I was done. So I'd already been kind of praying to God to give me another opportunity because I knew I was done. So when that walked in the door, I was like, well, I kind of want to be an aircraft carrier CMC. So I know how to embark Marines. I wanted to go to an aviation squadron next to learn how to be embarked on board a ship. I'll just go to be staff and I'll learn how to be embarked on board a ship. But being embarked on board a flagship is a lot different than being embarked as an air wing, right? Like, and then there's all that drama and all that inbredness and all that crap that goes on there. So, but that's where I first saw Master Chiefs changing other Master Chiefs' careers. And at first I thought I was in, I'm in, like I'm in. Like, we know what we're doing, we're freaking awesome. We know what we're doing, right? And then I get done with Seven Fleet and all my crap there, and I I managed, I worked Guam on my own, bro. No one knew how I got Guam. No one knew how I got Guam, bro, because I networked it. I pulled the rabbit out of the hat, bro. I didn't get no help from nobody. I was in Hawaii with my wife in the hospital. I'm working with Jim Honey on the phone. I'm working with Lisa Tisdale on the phone. And all they're saying, I'm arguing with Izzy because Izzy's the detail of the time. And Izzy's like, no, Gary, screw them. Screw them. They can't do that to you, bro. Go back there and make it do an IG. Go back there and make them pay for this, right?

Mike Kaszubowski 2:14:38

Yeah, I know your story very well.

Gary Wise 2:14:40

And I and I'm getting that energy, right? Yeah. But I'm a team guy. I'm a company man, right? I'm struggling with it because I'm a company man. And once I was able to, and Jim was my isic. He was I'm at next tier up. So even though he was at the pack fleet level at the time, he was my immediate next guy up the chain of command when it comes to the mass chief thing. So I think he knew it was in all of our best interests to let to make this Guam thing work out. And nobody wants Guam anyway, let's be honest. Like no one's jumping out of their chair to go do naval base Guam. And I my wife, for whatever her reasons, was open to it. So I did that. And I made it all, I made the problem go away. I took my medicine and I just tried my best to get out of there, right? And that's another story for another time. But then I'm in Guam, right? And arguably have a great tour. Kick ass take names until the new change command comes around. And I got this new weak flag CMC who doesn't like me because he thinks he's a flag CMC. And I'm like, bro, I don't care, dog. Like not too long ago, I was sitting back in that other room with all these other dudes. And guess what? I'm not that guy. I don't care to be one of those, nothing, nothing against that community. I'm just, I'm not, I'm not all the way in anymore. Right? I've learned some stuff. I had a little more wisdom, right? And I'm open to take care of my family a little bit more as a priority advice, just swinging at every pitch, right? I'm no longer swinging at every pitch anymore. I'm thinking about my family at this point. And I get a phone call, and they say, hey, Gary, um, we really want you to go to Naval Hospital Guam. That's opening up. We ever the whole community loves you. We want you to stay on Guam. We hear that you're thinking about retirement. What would you what do you think going ahead of Naval Hospital Guam? Like, yeah, you know what? Sure. My wife likes Guam, my kids like Guam. I love Guam. I would do Naval Hospital Guam. Sure. And then a master chief in the CNIC community says, no way, no way will I ever allow him to leave that place early. We need him for all three years. And I said, no, no, no. Nah, flag on the play, bro. Flag on the play, bro. First, they called me, I didn't call them. Secondly, I got a change of command coming. I don't want to deal with all that crap. I can already read the tea leaves. Why, why, this is now my third tour as a CMC. And again, I'm done. I got an MSM already for COVID response. I don't give a shrap about anything else, right? I didn't do any of it for the trophy. I did it because I was on deck. And oh, by the way, everyone kept telling me the whole time, thank God you're there, Gary, that you're the perfect guy for that job. Because it was freaking, it was wood work, bro. Hard times. And now I got this phone call. I got all these higher level people saying I'm the guy, but one guy can stop this from happening. And you don't even want to hear my perspective. Just because if you don't want to backfill the billet for someone else, cool, bro. I'm retiring, dog. I'm not playing these games anymore. And I remember I got on the phone with the guy that does the flag boards. Gary, what are you doing? Dropping papers. You're gonna be coming up for this next board, blah blah blah, blah, blah. Not for nothing, man. I made senior chief young. I made mass chief young. I'm I'm past the point where I'm gonna let another E9 determine what's gonna happen to my family anymore. Right? Like, I feel like I'm if it was the old way where I could throw my name in the hat for a job, and then I got picked out of by that boss because I was the best guy for the job based off the interview. That's fair for me. Not a bunch of these freaking dudes that have no clue what I what we do, determining what's gonna happen, and then giving the boss only two choices of people that they think is the best fit. And they may not even want that job, bro. They maybe don't even want that job.

Mike Kaszubowski 2:18:58

Yeah, again, that's uh we can have another podcast about that.

Gary Wise 2:19:01

You should have but that's why I retired, right? And because also I'm like, all right, my oldest son's about to be ninth grade, yeah. I'm gone, bro. And then not to mention living, I had an investigation open on me, Mike, for like 11 months, bro. 11 who does that to somebody, and not even a real investigation, bro. I got interviewed one time, like nine months before that. My CO never got talked to, my XO never got talked to, right? And they kept me in the seat for the whole time. I remember laughing, bro, at the Chiefs Club. I'd be laughing, like, bro, you these but and where I come from, if there's a problem with someone, you're not gonna be in the seat because your your mental health matters to us. Yeah, we want to make sure that you get the chance to have a fair and due process. I remember asking my CEO, like, sir, I called the flag master chief up. I was like, bro, what's stopping me from just? Going into the hospital right now and just tap it out, dog. Oh, Gary, please don't do that. Oh, I'm not gonna do that, bro, because I'm not a punk. But I'm they didn't know I was already thinking about hurting myself because I couldn't hurt them. Right? I was that guy. I was like, I could drive up that hill and grab that dude by the collar and just go to work. And that will, you know what I'm saying? Like, I was struggling, bro, because my wife was dealing with that, my kids were dealing with that, and none of that would have even been a thing if that one master chief hadn't insert himself in my family business or in my business and just said, That's awesome, Gary. I'm glad you got the opportunity, bro. Good for you. Next thing, yeah, right.

Mike Kaszubowski 2:20:42

Yeah, that's interesting. I know that story.

Gary Wise 2:20:45

That's my problem, right?

Mike Kaszubowski 2:20:46

Yeah, there are too many people, I think, in the position of influence, specifically in the senior enlisted world, that um that, in my personal opinion, shouldn't have the position of influence. You know, we're not naval officers, man. You know, we're we're enlisted leaders responsible for deck plate enforcement, advising our commanders on the health, the morale, and the well-being of our sailors, officers included, of course. Um, but then you know, you could talk about influence and power all day long. Um and the senior you get in the Navy, whether, you know, and then we throw titles around, man. And we love titles of the Navy, force master chief, fleet master chief. Uh, we we are very title driven in the military. And sometimes those titles, people have egos, egos that write checks that they can't cash. And because they have a title behind their name, they are in a position of influence and power. To your point, influencing and having power over people's careers that they know nothing about or hear second or third fourth things. It's interesting, man.

Gary Wise 2:21:50

It's sad, bro. And I don't know enough about the other branches to hear how they manage their talent, their talent pool. Because here's the other thing, right? I believe the senior enlisted leaders in the United States Navy are done a disservice because our bonuses should be equivalent to a department head bonus. Period. Stop. A hundred thousand dollar bonus for a surface warfare department head, right? It's more than that. Exactly. Exactly. Meanwhile, we never you never get a down tour. Every day, everywhere you go, you're in the triad.

Mike Kaszubowski 2:22:27

Yeah, you know, when I was at Sigonella, there was a fleet mass chief that came to town, and I won't mention her name, but uh, you know, um she uh she came to town and and I pulled her aside and I says, Hey, is there any way we can get a pay raise of CMCs? And I got I got you know dressed down, you know, and I was like, what what when the hell just happened? Like I just we don't do this for the money, we do this blah blah blah blah blah blah. And I'm just like, huh? Like, hold on a sec. First of all, I'm not a first tour CMC. Second of all, um, why do they treat the command master chief with so much respect? But the pay doesn't match the responsibility and the job that we do, and still can I never figure out. I will tell you that last year or two, there's some talk in the flag vess of them trying to increase the monetary amount a command master chief gets based on the position you are. This is only talk, and so um it's ridiculous. We are there before, we're there after, and we're advising our commanders, and to a degree, some of us admirals are very senior leader, you know, senior issues. And you get pro pay for a flag, like for me, 225, then they tax it. Yeah, great. So I'm getting one 175.

Accountability, Ethics, And Fairness

Gary Wise 2:23:52

Um, but and you get increased scrutiny and you get increased legal trauma. Here's the thing I'm not even so much worried about like the second, third, and fourth tours. I'm just thinking about those people going out to their first ship and the hours they're gonna put in, the stress, you know, like bro, my CEO and I would walk off the ship together, and it was just it's a lot. And I think that especially seeing what it's like in the civilian world when it comes to compensation for what people really do and the value that we bring. And oh, by the way, the majority of us are now educated by a piece of paper. Well, by the way, because a piece of paper don't mean crap, right? Like, I'm still not a fan of colleges, I only did it because that's what they said I had to do to promote. So I went and got my education. It wasn't because I wanted to go to school, because like you, I did not like school. I'm not there to dropped out of high school at 15. I got my GED before I joined the Navy. Like, I did not do any of the education because I was passionate about education. I did it because they said I had to do to promote. But I just I look at that, I think that there's two things that they're doing wrong when it comes to that senior list of leader space. Number one, the detailing, I think is I don't, I'm not a fan of it. Just put that out there. And that's one reason why I walked away, besides the fact that you can let again, you can have mean people be in situations of opportunity and nothing can stop them, right? And everyone that I talked to, because again, I was talking to people, Gary, you should call IG, Gary, you should again, it took me years after retirement, bro, to even want to even start talking about it because I was so jacked up in the head. So jacked up in the head because I'm I was I remember that time when at the Admiral Aqualino started yelling at me that one time in that meeting that we were at in Hawaii, yeah, right? Because I had just said, sir, what you're saying resonates with me. I'm inspired to hear that. We need to hear that kind of conversation more on the deck plates, not freaking transgender crap or not whatever. We need to hear what you're saying. And he got so pissed off at me, right? Lights me up because Matt's chief, what do I have you for if I gotta say it, right? And then what was the worst part after that was some of those other guys were like, oh Gary, oh Gary, we don't do those things when we come here. You know, we just whisper, we only talk in between the meetings, we only come here to talk about things behind closed doors. And I was just like, bro, cat, you couldn't left me home. Like, I'm a I come here as a master chief. Again, damage control man, a dude that wants to do the work. I'm not afraid to have a conflict. We're getting briefed on things that even to this day is causing problems in the Navy. And even then, I was like, why are we doing that? Why I'm gonna shut up now because my wife didn't come with me. So I'm not cool enough to have a spouse that travels because my kids are little, right? But if this is what I have to look up to to go forward, and what's funny is uh several of those gentlemen are my friends personally, but in that moment, I was like, and then I had to talk to Toby and like apologize for making Seventh Fleet look bad. Like, and I look back on my life, like, no, I asked a he asked Master Chief's question, and I literally had a question. And all these dudes in the room were just like, no, no, and what I will tell you in the civilian sector, you have the exact same problem. And when people start thinking that their position is more important than the organization, or that their backroom conversation is what's really going on, it's unfortunately toxic, right? And I remember talking to the guy for the flagboards. I was telling him all this. Like, bro, this is why I'm retiring. Just give him one chance, Gary. You might get the opportunity, bro. No, because all it takes is one guy at that board to say no, and they're all gonna say, okay, because we agree, because this guy has a certain position or whatever it is, and he gets to choose that I gotta go do more time, something else. And the boss has no clue. The boss wants me there at that job. That capital said, I want that master chief from the base because he's freaking awesome. And it's interesting. Yeah, it's interesting. All right, man, we're gonna land this plane, bro, because we could, again, like you said, whole other podcasts, bro.

Mike Kaszubowski 2:28:27

Yeah, I hope that it gets an opportunity to do it again with you, you know. Uh for sure. Share some some sea stories, and even more importantly, November 3rd of 2026 would be a great time to talk, too, when I'm officially retired from the Navy. And uh, I could share some some some some interesting things too. Not in the business to hurt anybody, not in the business to call anybody out, but just share some experiences to some of your earlier points that you know, having some interesting conversation. You and I share a lot of the same thing, but um, what an honor, privilege to chat with you, buddy.

Gary Wise 2:29:00

Well, hold on, we're gonna wrap it up here. I gotta ask you some fast questions, and I'm gonna add you to my list of guys who all want to wait until they're retired to talk. Trust me. Happy to do it, and and like you, I'm not trying to cause problems for no one, but the sailors always know. Right? I just I agree.

Mike Kaszubowski 2:29:23

And and um the you know the Navy's not perfect, civilians aren't perfect, but um I think somebody might watch this and be like, wow, uh they do that in the Navy, or you know what? This is exactly what I want to do in the Navy, but uh sometimes it's sometimes you gotta call that duck out every once in a while.

Gary Wise 2:29:46

You know, so before I went to Ashland, I went to Surfland because I was in Virginia and I sat down with every CMC that was on the staff that had gotten fired, right? And I talked to all of them, and that was an interesting time. And so I look back on my career, it's like Gary, you knew what you signed up for, bro. Don't act like you didn't know. Yeah, just I had hope, right? It's like we were that person of that toxic relationship, and you think you can change it, right? I they they'll love me right. Like I all right, here we go, bro. Okay, do you have a moment that you was like, oh my god, I'm really in the Navy? Like, what was your first welcome to the Navy moment?

Mike Kaszubowski 2:30:27

Uh June 7th, 1995, standing at attention and was told not to stand on that flag at Welcome to Bootcamp. That that to be honest with you, that's that was the moment.

Gary Wise 2:30:38

Awesome. I get it, brother. Hey, looking back through your career, what do you think is the most common leadership challenge that you've seen facing all your different organizations? Has there been like one or two common threads?

Mike Kaszubowski 2:30:50

I'd say the biggest leadership challenge that that I certainly have faced is is um is the chief's mess. And from a command masterie's perspective of 15, 16 years of doing this, is I will tell you the hardest leadership challenge I ever did was a chief's mess. And I'm not saying that as a negative thing. What I'm telling you is, as you know, chief's mess is there's something that happens to a human, male or female, when they go through that initiation, selection, transition process. And what they're told for six, seven weeks, and then they enter a mess. And everyone in the mess had been entered into the mess at different times or stages in their life, and they come with different backgrounds, different pedigrees, different thoughts, different experiences, and try to leave that group with so many different thoughts, so many different types of backgrounds and experiences is challenging.

Gary Wise 2:31:39

Yep, 100%. And not every mess is the same, right?

Mike Kaszubowski 2:31:43

Correct.

Gary Wise 2:31:44

100%. All right, dude, you've raised three strong young Americans, and I just would like to know because a lot of my students watch these podcasts, my families, my parents, and then my community. You know, I'm blessed to be in a community that doesn't have a lot of I mean, two hours away seems like a longer way, farther away than what it is. Um, what's a good leadership piece of advice you give to parents that are raising teens?

Mike Kaszubowski 2:32:10

A good uh so I will tell you there's three things that um that resonated with me since my time on the Antietam. When I one of my CEOs was a guy by the name of uh Michael McCartney, and Cap McCartney's now retired, and he was a Stockdale Leadership Award winner. And um, I really enjoyed working for him. He is an unbelievable leader, but he taught me three things, and I share this with you because I talk about it quite a bit since I learned it in 20, you know, in 13, 2014 from Cap Mike McCartney, and I've taught my kids this well. So if you ask any three of my kids, they would tell you this, and they'll probably laugh at it. But, you know, three things lead yourself exceptionally well, create opportunities for others to succeed, and have a positive attitude. If you can do those three things and you can instill those three things in the future generation, lead yourself exceptionally well, create opportunities for others to succeed. It's a big thing to give back to people, and it's not about us. You know, I tell people you have to be able to create something for somebody else to do. The payback is always tenfold. And then the third thing is having a positive attitude. There are people that have it way worse than some of the people we know, and then it's not sometimes it's it is a little the grass is green on the other side, but having a positive attitude, I think, makes you smarter, brighter, better, and puts you through adversity a little bit better. So I would sum it up to creating opportunities for others to succeed, lead yourself exceptionally well, and have a positive attitude.

Gary Wise 2:33:57

Good to go. That's great. Um, what's a piece of advice you would give to somebody who's struggling within an organization from some of these challenges that we've talked about, right? They feel like it's not fair, they feel like something's not going the right way, and they don't know what they're gonna do, or they could be a young second class, right? And they felt like they got it, they didn't get the eval they were supposed to get, whatever, right?

Mike Kaszubowski 2:34:21

Seek a mentor. I I will tell you this that you know, we use that word mentor in the Navy. Very interesting. I remember when we were forced to have a mentor in the Navy, there was a mentorship instruction in the Navy, they got rid of the mentorship instruction. But whether you're a civilian or you're active duty, find somebody you can call to vent, someone that you trust, someone that you respect. And at the same time, be open and mindful to listen to the feedback because you might not like the feedback. You may not resonate with the feedback, but if you really trust the other person, I think having I've had a couple of good mentors in my career. Rich Hatton's one of them. I've had a couple of them, James Osborne, a couple of them, that I know that if I call, they're gonna give it to me the way straightforward. I'm very fortunate that I'm a mentor to a couple of people too, and you know me to be a very straightforward person. Many people that know Mike Kazabowski, I'm very straightforward. So to your point earlier, that rubs people the wrong way. But it's not that I want to rub you the wrong way. If you ask me a question, I'm gonna give you an answer. It doesn't mean you're gonna like the answer. Like at least be willing to hear the answer. You have to think and look differently sometimes. We as human beings look at things a certain way, right? We want the world to work the way we want the world to work. Unfortunately, the world doesn't work the way we want it to work. So having somebody's difference of opinion and then being able to respect that opinion and look at things a different side. I think having a mentor was one of the greatest things I did in the Navy.

Mentors, Resilience, And Raising Leaders

Gary Wise 2:36:00

No, for sure, man. And I'll tell you like when it comes to James or you, or one of the things I do love about our Navy's culture is that rates are so they are so similar, right? So I could be almost in the same room with any other DC mass chief or DC man, period, and probably connect if we can get past the bravado over who's the best firefighter or whatever it is, right? But but once we get past that part, the connection is there. And James was also a good advice point for me. And I'll tell you, you've done me a solid as well, not just through my own career, but my guy Jeff Brooks has been with you there in Yokosuka, and he's gone through a very interesting run there. And he sure him and I were talking, we were talking the other day, filming one of these, and he was telling me that you and him had connected, and I was like, Oh yeah, Kaz is solid, bro. And I could I could see you and him connecting, right for sure. And and him appreciating that relationship. You know what I meant to mean?

Mike Kaszubowski 2:36:55

That's great to hear.

Gary Wise 2:36:56

Yeah, yeah. He yeah, he definitely speaks highly of you. All right, here we go. Next up, this is a little more fun, not so deep. It's Saturday night, you're on the ship, you want pizza or wings?

Mike Kaszubowski 2:37:08

Wings.

Gary Wise 2:37:09

Wings? Okay, got it. All right, brother. I got either the birthing cleaner or the working party. Which one do you want?

Mike Kaszubowski 2:37:15

Working party.

Gary Wise 2:37:16

Yeah, baby. Let's go. All right, we're gonna watch a movie in the mess. It's either gonna be De Niro or Pacino. What do you think?

Mike Kaszubowski 2:37:22

De Niro.

Gary Wise 2:37:24

De Niro, okay. Looking back on your career, brother, what was your favorite duty station?

Mike Kaszubowski 2:37:32

Favorite duty station. Duty station or duty type? Uh my favorite DV station, I think, was Europe in Italy. Um, I've been in Japan a long time, as you know. Eight ships in Japan, the four is a CMC, but my favorite DV station was Europe. To be able to online and and and and travel Europe, I think was a very phenomenal rewarding tour for us.

Gary Wise 2:37:58

Yep. I I can't, yeah, for you for for real. All right, looking back on your career, what was your favorite Liberty port?

Mike Kaszubowski 2:38:05

Favorite Liberty port, um Australia.

Gary Wise 2:38:09

Yeah. Well, where were you? Where'd you go in Australia?

Mike Kaszubowski 2:38:12

Brisbane, Perth, Perth, Darwin, Hobart, and uh Fremantle.

Gary Wise 2:38:17

Yeah, awesome. All right, looking back on your career, what was the hardest qualification you ever had to earn?

Mike Kaszubowski 2:38:23

Yeah.

Gary Wise 2:38:24

Yeah, yes, sir. All right. If you have the chance to do it again, would you recommend somebody goes overseas or stateside?

Mike Kaszubowski 2:38:31

Overseas. Yes, sir. I'm partisan of that because I've done most of my career overseas. But my only plug for overseas is you're operationally deployed all the time. And if you want to be a subject matter expert in your rate, the advancement rates do not lie. Sailors who are stationed overseas typically advance quicker and faster than no stateside.

Gary Wise 2:38:51

Fact. All right. Look looking at life. What's your favorite movie series? Not a trilogy, but a series. Favorite movie series.

Mike Kaszubowski 2:39:00

Favorite Godfather.

Gary Wise 2:39:02

Ooh, good one. I like it. All right. Would you rather be independent, Caz or on a team?

Mike Kaszubowski 2:39:07

Team.

Gary Wise 2:39:08

All right. I think I already got your personal leadership philosophy from you. Is that what you said about what you told your kids?

Mike Kaszubowski 2:39:13

Yeah.

Gary Wise 2:39:14

Got it. All right. So we've got deck plate leadership, institutional technical expertise, professionalism, character, loyalty, active communication, a sense of heritage. These are principles that I use to train chief petty officers. And I love them. And I still apply them to this day, even in my own life. Out of those guiding principles, which one is your favorite?

Mike Kaszubowski 2:39:37

Loyalty.

Gary Wise 2:39:39

Simple, simple and plain. All right, Cass, would you rather lead or follow?

Mike Kaszubowski 2:39:46

A little bit of both, if I can answer it like that.

Gary Wise 2:39:50

Roger. Situation will depend that I. Okay, that's it, bro. Do you have any save rounds or alibis?

Mike Kaszubowski 2:39:55

I know it's been an honor and a privilege to catch up with you, my friend. Uh, you know, as soon as we We started talking, you know. Uh I remember that email I sent you that long. In fact, it kind of makes me after we hang up, want me to scroll back up to many years ago into the conversation. The messenger, me begging you to not go command mass chief. I just sat your board. We selected you to be a mass chief as a damage controlman at C. And you did what Gary Wise did is did not take my advice and you became a phenomenal command mass chief. But that being said, what an honor and privilege to chat with you and see you again, my friend. And I look forward to doing it again in the future for sure.

Gary Wise 2:40:31

For sure, man, definitely. And keep me posted. If you have any questions about the whole transition thing, right? Hazman, I will tell you, as much as I love being a sailor, and I did, I really did. I love being a Navy chief all day, every day. We'll do it again. Um man, it's fun on this side. I'm very excited.

Mike Kaszubowski 2:40:51

I can't wait.

Gary Wise 2:40:52

Yeah, just having it over with, bro. Just getting through, then the pressure's no longer there.

Mike Kaszubowski 2:40:57

Absolutely.

Gary Wise 2:40:58

Yep. All right, bro. Hey everyone listening to the sounds of our voice. Hopefully, you enjoyed this conversation. You might have to pause it a few times because we went in, but it's okay. That's what happens when you get D semen together. We talk, yeah. That's what we do. All right, Cat's a good talking to you bro see you later, man.

Mike Kaszubowski 2:41:15

Likewise, thanks. Be good, my friend. And I know.

Gary Wise 2:41:20

Out both for it. I know. Out both for this. Don't get it up. Out both for the out of the out of the boat.