From Cults To Calling: Athena Dean Holtz On Healing, Publishing, And Spiritual Warfare

A wound left untended doesn’t just hurt—it starts to steer. That idea threads through a gripping conversation with author, speaker, and publisher Athena Dean Holtz, whose journey spans Scientology, pioneering PTSD advocacy, a booming publishing house, and a long season of spiritual abuse that cost her marriage, company, and community. What emerged on the other side is a hard-won clarity about discernment, forgiveness, and the everyday mechanics of spiritual warfare.

We start with the early days of Point Man Ministries, where Athena helped bring PTSD into the light for veterans and their families—years before the term went mainstream. From bootstrapping a book that eventually reached hundreds of thousands to co-founding WinePress and elevating indie Christian publishing, she shares what excellence requires and how success can become a sedative when deeper wounds go unaddressed. That unhealed pain, she says, made her vulnerable to leaders who weaponized scripture, cut her off from loved ones, and manipulated her into handing over a thriving company for ten dollars.

The pivot came with radical honesty and intensive counseling. Step by step, Athena learned why “you can’t resist what you don’t recognize” is more than a line—it’s a map. We unpack the parallels between guerrilla tactics and the enemy’s strategies today: isolate, exhaust, distort, and divide. Her latest book, No Longer Hidden, translates those insights into practical tools: read scripture in context, build boundaries without bitterness, and practice forgiveness from the heart. Not approval. Not access. Obedience and freedom.

If you’re navigating church hurt, leadership betrayal, or the fog that follows trauma, this story offers sturdy hope and clear next steps. Word and prayer as daily armor. Community that tells you the truth. Craft and integrity in your calling. And the courage to name what’s really at work so you can finally push back. Listen, reflect, and share with someone who needs language for what they’ve been feeling. Then subscribe, leave a review, and tell us: which red flag are you done ignoring?

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Gary Wise 0:27

Uh good evening, hello, good afternoon, half a day, aloha, all the above. Thank you to everyone who's joining with us at this point in time, listening to the sound of my voice, uh watching us on YouTube. We thank you very much. This is the Words from the Wise podcast. I am still Gary Wise, your host. And ladies and gentlemen, tonight I'm very excited because tonight we're gonna host our first guest on the podcast, who's not uh a person who was connected with me for my military service, but comes from an amazing background. And I'm just so excited for this conversation. The guest for tonight, uh, her name is Miss Athena Dean Holtz. She's an author, or uh, she's a professional speaker, she's a publisher, right? She's been publishing uh people for over four decades, and she's been she's got experience in ministry, entrepreneurial leadership. And honestly, today we're going to be talking not just about her journey to all of those amazing things, but she recently wrote a book, published a book called No Longer Hidden, and you cannot resist what you do not recognize, and that's just a fact. And so, without further ado, I would like to introduce Miss Athena to the podcast. Hello, Miss Athena. Hello, so nice to be with you, Gary. Thank you so much. And so, Miss Athena, you got on the podcast because you sent me an email. I guess you saw one of the shows or you heard one of the shows, and something about what I was saying resonated with you. Sent me an email, and here we are. So, thank you very much for that opportunity. Thank you. I'm super excited. So, ma'am, I'm curious to know first, what part of the states are you originally

Athena’s Early Life And Entrepreneurial Drive

Gary Wise 2:15

from? And how did you go from wherever you're originally from to becoming a person who's in the space that you are now? Ministry, leadership, entrepreneurial style, style, publishing books. How did you get to that space?

Athena Dean Holtz 2:31

Well, um, I'd have to say, growing up mostly in the Chicago suburbs, okay, uh, riding horses. And, you know, I had a dad who was very successful. So I was very, you know, he put lots of money into these horses that I got to go show all over the world. And um, so I didn't really get into my groove of starting companies and and seeing ideas and being a visionary and an entrepreneur until my kind of mid-20s. And that was I was in California by that time. And Southern California, then moved to Seattle, which is where I still am. And um just uh I seem to be a person that easily buys into a cause. If someone's being wronged or someone's being taken advantage of, I want to figure out a solution to help them. And that seems to be a red thread that has gone through my business background. But um just becoming a publisher was not something I had on my radar, it was not something I got trained for. I was too busy showing horses to pay attention to English class in high school. I did not go to college, so I'm definitely one of those who just from an experience, it was like this was the path that God had me on, even though I didn't know it. So um basically in the late 80s, I was involved in a ministry called Point Man Ministries. It was developed by Vietnam veterans for Vietnam veterans to kind of try and get a handle on the whole PTSD thing before it was a thing. This was like the 1986, people were not talking about PTSD at all.

Gary Wise 4:46

Yes, ma'am.

Athena Dean Holtz 4:47

And yeah, so we were trying to not only help the guys but also their wives, because this thing was a huge uh detractor in their life. I mean, of course, most of the time the husband who came home was not the same guy that left, and so you know, there was all of that, but we were trying to really help these Vietnam veterans specifically understand from a layman's terms this is what is going on, and this is why you're reacting the way that you are, and maybe don't even realize it, and then helping the wives understand this is you know, having a spouse who has post-traumatic stress, you almost end up with your own type of post-traumatic stress from that. But also what we realized was the veterans did not have a corner on the PTSD market. We as wives had our own trauma that we had never dealt with. We were doing whatever we were doing in our lives to kind of keep it at bay, unconsciously, I think, but to realize that wow, we have our own trauma, we have our own baggage, and the same understand, we need to have the same understanding of how it works, and you know, understand that from a spiritual dynamic, there is way more hope than just going to the you know, the psychologist and getting drugs to cope. So, in that in the middle of that ministry, we were going to the traveling wall, uh, wherever it was, and were handing out a book that my then Vietnam veteran husband wrote about PTSD. And that was something actually uh we tried to, you know, send the manuscript to all these New York publishers and did not get a very good response. Um I mean, at the time, Vietnam veterans were still, you know, seen in a horribly negative light, which was absolutely not fair to them, but it it is what it is. And there wasn't a lot of love coming from these people we didn't know sending them the manuscript. Right. So we we ended up meeting uh a guy who worked for a denominational printing house, just in they did their own work and and developed it and printed it. And he said, you know, this is really good, but it needs a rewrite. So that was our first lesson was it wasn't really ready to send out. So that probably wasn't helpful, but he said, you know what, I can do that, I can do the rewrite for you, I can get your cover designed, I can get the layout done, I can get you the ISBN number, and I can get you 10,000 copies for a buck a piece. And we're like, Woo, yes, answer to prayer, that's exactly what we needed. We had no idea where that money was gonna come from, but we just knew that was an answer to prayer. So, um,

Point Man Ministries And Early PTSD Work

Athena Dean Holtz 8:30

like a week later, this guy that we never met before, he was a Korean vet, not a Vietnam vet, walked into our office and said, you know, I love what you guys do. I heard you had a need. Here you go. Wrote a check for the whole thing. Wow. Right. And we were like, woo.

Gary Wise 8:52

Right?

Athena Dean Holtz 8:53

Yeah. So uh, so we went on that journey of getting the rewrite done and getting the um all the pieces in place and getting the 10,000 copies. And by the end of two years, we were down to one case of 50 copies. And we were like, well, wow, what are we gonna do now? And it just so happened that at that time the um CBN uh in Virginia Beach was doing a Vietnam veterans conference that our ministry kind of inspired for them to um get some some of the more well-known uh Vietnam veterans in our movement um on the stage and really use it as an outreach. And so we were in the green room getting ready to go on the 700 Club, and we met this guy who was like a music, like a manager of this group that was on. And he was like asking about the story, and he said, Really, you've gone through 10,000 copies in two years. I think I can get you a publisher, and we're like, sweet, because we lived on the money that came from those 10,000 books. There isn't any left to do a reprint, right? Right, so um, so he did. He pitched it to uh the senior editor at Multnomah Press on the way home from this big convention that he was at and and Larry Libby was at. And he said, Okay, give me a copy, I'll read it on my way home. And on the plane ride home, he read it, and it we found out later, just so happened, his brother was a Vietnam veteran. So that was definitely a divine appointment. And he absolutely said, We'll take it. And they actually sent us $5,000 uh as an advance, and they went over the next eight years and sold 40,000 copies, and then the it, you know, went out of print, came back to us. Uh, so a third um edition came out and it's still out. It's already so in this time, in this almost 40 years, it has sold uh 250,000 copies with a million in print because we gave the um I forget which organization it was, but we gave them the right to just print and give away. So I think it was the VFW that's who we gave that to. So there's a million out there, and so you know that's incredible.

Gary Wise 11:55

I know that's incredible from your husband. Just uh and I wrote a book last year, and so I I will tell you that it's a very daunting idea. I can only imagine what your husband went through as I was probably therapeutic for him writing the book, you know, and my dad was also a Vietnam veteran, and so I have uh definitely a respect and a kinship to that, um, and then as a veteran myself from a different generation, but definitely understanding a lot of the challenges and not and PTSD is this complicated conversation that there's really not a one-size fits-all box to put somebody in, truthfully. And I I teach high school now, a JRTC unit, and I was just teaching my my students about trauma and the difference about trauma between like feeling bad because you didn't get an A, right? Like, there's a difference and grieving trauma exactly, right? But you know, people can be traumatic or dramatic in in 2025, 2026, and yeah, I want them to understand that grieving post-trauma is not the same thing as like having a pity party and like gotta get back on the horse and ride. But if you go through something that you were not prepared for, it may be traumatic for you, and you might need to process that. And it's not always going to be bombs blowing up and ids exploding or what, and like you said, for the for the spouses back home, even to this day, when when when the service members return back from a deployment, they're they're may people are not the same. People are going to be changed, and there's going to be complications, and it may be traumatic because it might cause again things that people might want to dismiss as not that big of a deal that may come back to haunt them later. And thinking back on the time period that you all first published this book, it was probably you were ahead of the curve, right? You were ahead of the curve on this conversation. And then, of course, we had no idea where we were going to go as a society with technology and the war on terror and Afghanistan, Iraq, and and and all these things that then would come downrange and hope, and we would have tools like your husband's book, your book to help us better have this conversation and to help people feel more at peace with what they were dealing with because there's a lot of baggage that comes with accepting you've got challenges now, right? Yep, all good things, all good things, and an amazing story. And you know, side quest, right? Side quest, because I'm interested. How'd you meet your husband?

Athena Dean Holtz 14:35

Um, we were, believe it or not, this was um in my days in Hollywood, California, where I was in Scientology, the cult of Scientology, and we met, we met in the cult.

Gary Wise 14:53

Okay. So he was trying something out, right? And right, I've heard a little bit of I've I've got family down in Clearwater, Florida. So I've got I've got connections, right? I and I've watched all the Leah Remini documentary documentary episodes, right? Uh, but everything she said, everything she said was true. I believe it, right? Yeah, he was probably trying to find things to help him, right? Dianetics or whatever it was, sounds good, right? And then and then you were probably going through your journey of trying to figure out life and what you were looking for, and the two of you connect, and then you do choose to leave that space and move on with your life. That that's amazing. Congratulations on that success. Like, that's I mean, so here you are that successful that at that phase in your that space in your life. What came first after you left that that organization? Was it the ministry or was it business, or were they kind of on similar paths throughout your life?

Athena Dean Holtz 15:53

Well, coming out of Scientology, um that was uh began my I had two boys, you know, one right after another, but I was always uh a real kind of go-getter type A, you know. I always was more work-oriented than I was family-oriented. That's just the way I was. And um, so I started doing some um working with an organization that did sales representing the like San Diego police union or the firefighters union, these different organizations that needed to raise money, but the people on the other end of the phone would always think that they were talking

The Self-Publishing Breakthrough And Impact

Athena Dean Holtz 16:45

to a police officer or a firefighter, whoever they were raising money for, it was this right, yeah, not not a very uh honorable kind of sales situation, and uh so I didn't like the way that they were, you know, not being honest. So I started my own fundraising where I did that for a while, giving a percentage instead of just a flat rate. And so this again was me getting involved in a cause that was gonna write a wrong, and that was a big deal for me. Um, so that was kind of my first business that I started. I then went into some other uh kind of network marketing, multi-level marketing opportunities that I was great at. But yeah, I wrote a whole book about that too. So I we don't have to go there, but okay, um, it was definitely something that you know I was finding success in those areas, and um what kind of happened in the middle of that coming into um faith, first of all, when I was about 33, um realizing that, you know, this PTSD thing, I think I maybe have my own stuff that I'm reacting to when I get triggered. Uh so it's again, it's not like you they didn't have the corner on the market when we realized, well, I had abuse as a child, I had uh forced abortion when I was a teenager, I had uh domestic violence with my first husband. So I had gone through true trauma, right? But I was the kind of person that didn't really want to sit with that wound and that trauma and process it. I wanted to just shove it away and self-medicate on work and success. And that definitely was my medication of choice for many years. Yes, and the publishing was just, you know, launching that uh in the early 90s was uh a big deal, a big undertaking, because once we had the success we did with the Nom Vet book, people were saying, Well, can you help me with my book? And we're like, Well, yeah, I guess so. We just did this thing, and so I I actually the the two of us actually we co-founded Wine Press Publishing, and we actually kind of pioneered the independent publishing movement within the Christian market, so we were pretty much just representing faith based messages, right? Um, but that was uh we didn't even know it's like doing the thing on PTSD and having small groups to help these veterans process. Us through. Like that wasn't even a thing back then doing that. And but we were doing it just because we felt led to do it. And same with this. But it was something where we were really offering an opportunity for others to get their message out there in a way that is professional, well edited, not you know, not just something like these days. Anybody can just go to uh Amazon and upload a file. It and no one's gonna stop you and say the things that that guy said to us. This needs a rewrite. So we learned that with the Nom Vet book and began to apply that kind of service and polish for the manuscripts we were working with. But it was just it was kind of all, and and I have to say, for me personally and my own trauma, uh, wine press was another kind of way that I self-medicated because it was the exhilaration of starting a company and working 90-hour weeks and being really again the first one uh doing this. So it was something new and exciting. And there was just a lot of which I didn't recognize at the time. Uh honestly, it wasn't one of those things where I went, oh, I'm self-medicating. Maybe I need to learn how to, you know, step back and maybe get some counseling, maybe get some help. No, I it wasn't till I was 40 that I figured that out.

Gary Wise 21:43

I can relate. I I can relate a thousand percent, and a lot of high performers can, right? I mean, a lot of people uh that are workaholics to coin to use the phrase we've all been told our entire lives, or people that are passionate about their work or living in their purpose, or whatever your thing is, uh I can a thousand percent relate. And it was so unhealthy for me. It wasn't until I finally for me, I had a challenge where I lost faith in the organization that I'd given so much of myself to that was hard to come to terms with, right? And uh, you know, I teach a middle school ministry now at my church, and we were just doing uh uh a lesson about you know the widow and the unfair judge, and just trying to teach them that life's not always going to be fair and take it to God and try to give him some of your some of your some of your concerns because not everyone's gonna always want to hear your side of the story, right? But if you do choose to to put yourself in a position where you got to you have to receive the judgment of a judge, just be prepared for whatever that judgment may be because you don't always get to control the outcome, right? And and I can tell you when I look back on my life, I love and I would my jazz my justification was well, it's better that I'm working all these hours than out drinking, or better that I'm doing you know, doing all these other things, better than I work, but my my kids still miss me, my wife still misses me, I'm still not taking care of the things that I'm not work not worrying about while I'm working, and of course, you're developing just maybe some bad mental health habits as you get through that whole thing, right? So I can relate, and I think a lot of people out there can, and giving yourself permission to say woosah, take a break, maybe go talk to somebody about it, pray a little bit more than you are, or whatever it is, and then maybe you can look back on those past traumas that we all have, like you said. I mean, childhood alone, everybody's childhood, they've got something. Everybody, I'm convinced everybody's got something in their childhood, and then you know, as life goes on, you're from whether it's losing a loved one or not having challenging experiences, there's always going to be things that if you don't handle it the right way, they may come back to haunt you. And so definitely so relatable, and more people need to hear that it may be unhealthy to throw yourself that much into the pursuit of things, and but on the reverse, right? The quite possibly why your companies were so successful was

Leaving Scientology And Finding Faith

Gary Wise 24:30

your level of commitment and dedication. And oh, by the way, you're in a a marriage where you're both invested in this thing. I couldn't imagine, like, my wife has not a lot to do with my business. Even when I was in the military, she was without a doubt my force multiplier. She was amazing at managing like the spouse networks and dealing with the community, and and quite literally, when we would go into those spaces, I was known more as her husband than I was the base master chief, right? Which was just all uh uh you know, just uh a good thing for her. Uh, but whenever we would get too close to each other's swim lanes, there would be some conflict there, and so we learned how to kind of navigate not being in each other's areas. So, how did you and your husband manage that? Were you guys like just completely aligned uh on this whole path? Because were you both putting in the 90-hour work weeks?

Athena Dean Holtz 25:26

No, actually, no, he he was more uh one of those Vietnam veterans that came back and didn't have a great ability to be in a under someone else's authority, which is kind of typical. And uh so he was I was more of the provider while he did some writing and did some different things and and kind of took took care of those boys. Um but uh I want to make sure that I kind of tie in what happened between that and kind of where I am now, only because that Scientology was just the first cult. Yes. So and I want to tie in why it is so important to process our pain and to do the hard work to uh, you know, whatever is left untended to, we do need to take the time to do that. And there's a really good reason why I'm gonna tell you in a minute here. Um so about eight years into wine press publishing, um, I ended up signing a contract for a air quote pastor and his wife um turned out to be a wolf and uh a wolf in sheep's clothing who knew how to talk the talk, but absolutely not even close to being genuine, a genuine believer. And um so this is about eight years into wine press publishing, about eight years after the Lord kind of showed us that this we have our own post-traumatic stress, we have our own healing that we need. And we actually, and I I think I'm gonna take a little detour here and say that the three wives, there were three of us, we went away to a cabin and just wanted to really kind of hear from God on this PTSD thing and how can we best minister to these wives and their families? And the scripture in Psalm 147, I heal the brokenhearted and bind up their wounds, and it was like it was a neon on the page. It was like, okay, I've read that a million times. So, okay, what's the point here? And I went and looked up in the Hebrew, because in Psalms, that's everything's from the Hebrew root, uh, where New Testament is from Greek, right? So I looked up in my uh Bible that had the Hebrew and Greek in the back. I looked up that word wound, and it said Atstabeth, it is an idol. And it was like, whoa. Like we'd seen, you know, physically the the things that happened with triggers and adrenaline and you know, fight and flight, and all of that. That was those were some things that happened physically from their the trauma. Then there was the mental that you know, feeling suicidal and depressed and all and all those things, but we hadn't had a real scriptural spiritual answer for this PTSD thing until now, until until we look that up, and it clearly just said it's idolatry. And the reason it's idolatry is because it's controlling us. If you get triggered by a sound, your brain doesn't know the difference between a real uh threat and a perceived threat. So if it's a sound or a song or a smell or you know, anything like that that is that was active and in those memories from the time of uh the post-traumatic stress, the trauma, not I'm sorry, not the post-traumatic stress, but the time of the trauma, you know, our brain does not know the difference, it is treating it as if it is a real threat, and that's why you get the fight, the flight, the freeze, all of those responses to that trigger. And and I kept saying, I feel like our the wounds are controlling us, and God wants to control our lives. If we belong to Him, He wants to control it, but I feel I I just felt like uh I'm missing something, and so when I saw this wound is actually if it's not intended to, it becomes an idol because it's controlling us rather than God, and so I knew at that moment when God showed me that that I needed to take some time and be willing to let him into those places that were probably by that time gangrene. But what did I do? Ah, you bet I you know no thanks. I'm

Building WinePress And Work As Self-Medication

Athena Dean Holtz 31:20

I'm too busy right now. Later, let's do this later. And so I want to make that really clear because the whole tie-in to this wolf in sheep's clothing was a result of that disobedience. Oh now I didn't know it until 13 years later. Okay, and in the period of 13 years, um they used scripture out of context to control and manipulate and shame and shun and just like so much that I didn't really I didn't really know what they were doing. I I was not that efficient with the scripture. And I I it was I was pretty shallow. Let's just put it that way. I was pretty shallow a Christian. And all of a sudden once I got to the other end of 13 years, and they had during that time talked me into divorcing my husband in Jesus' name, uh, not talking to my kids for 12 years, their idolaters have nothing to do with them. I mean, quoting scripture out of context to justify cutting you off from family, cutting you off from friends, cutting you off from anybody that's gonna question. And you know, telling you my husband, oh, he's an unbeliever, let him leave. And and I swallowed all of that and thought I was, I thought they were they heard from the Holy Spirit more than I did. So I was completely deceived, so much so that they ended up talking me into that it was God's will for them to own Wine Press Publishing, which at that point was a 20-year-old $3.5 million company that was so well respected in the industry. I mean, it was unbelievable, right? And they got me to turn it over thinking I'm a female, I have no right running this company, I don't hear from God enough, thinking I'm doing God's will. I let them have it for ten dollars, which is bizarre.

Gary Wise 34:03

You know it, yeah, you know it now that you know now that that's but you were also just unfortunately. I mean, it sounds just tragic, right? It's just it just question now is have you reconnected with your kids?

Athena Dean Holtz 34:21

Yeah, yes, that's um when I got out, when I my my eyes were finally opened, okay, and it was like, whoa, okay, God, what happened? How did I believe a lie was the truth and was willing to give up everything for it?

Gary Wise 34:40

And you said 13 years, 13 years you were with this yes, 13 years, yep, okay, and so you come out of this one and your business is gone. Yep, right? You sold your company. So, what was it that made you decide to leave after you sold the wine press publishing to them for ten dollars?

Athena Dean Holtz 34:59

I mean, did something happen where you were that they broke faith with you, or oh yeah, they basically um they had gotten me to the point where rather than the founder, I was now they had me like scrubbing toilets. No, you know, um what's the no suffering is or no no discipline. That's the one. No discipline is pleasant at the time, but only if you learn from it, right? Those kind of scriptures, they would like you know exile you and no one talks to you, or they would they had me cleaning the bathroom and scrubbing toilets and taking trash out and not allowed to talk to any of our authors. I mean, it was bizarre.

Gary Wise 35:47

I mean, really, and and when you look back on your life in that space, do you now know what you were looking for that you believed? And then were you looking for a path to God? Were you looking for faith? Were you looking for a family? Were you looking for what was it that you were hopeful for that you were able to believe this? Because it sounds like you had to want to believe it in order to get there because it seems pretty pretty hard to understand, but so there had to be something you were hoping for.

Athena Dean Holtz 36:20

Well, definitely we were at this point in time where we were questioning, you know, the cheap grace and some of the movements out there that were just didn't feel like authentic Christianity, and so when we met this couple, they were like, you know, this is the narrow road, and we, you know, so they they played their oh shame, this is the narrow road, and everyone else is on the wide road, so we've got some insider information. I mean, they didn't say that, but that was so here here is my first takeaway was they appeal to my pride, yeah. Like we have the truth, those other people don't. You haven't had it yet. This is where you're gonna find it, and it was a very family kind of environment, and I did not grow up in a in a strong, not at all Christian family, but even the family value, we didn't really have that, so I earn I yearned for that, even getting into Scientology. I yearned for that being part of this family where we all were going for the same cause, we were all on the same page, and we were all willing to sacrifice everything to do these great works. Same, same, pretty much.

Gary Wise 37:48

So I was raised uh in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Oh, so and I and I'm not active in that church any longer, but that was what I was raised in. So I can definitely, it's a high-functioning, high performing, high expectation religion, right? And that also and that also believes that they have the the key to where you gotta get, and if you don't go their way, that that you're not gonna get there, right? So I can relate, right? Just so you know, like I I can relate, and then of course I've traveled the world in my journey, and I've gotten the opportunity to see many cultures, many religions, many theology, many, many different things that's brought me to where I am in my belief system, but I can definitely understand where people uh, especially when you get there's a challenge, right? Like this is the high road, this is the narrow road, this is the I mean, look, why do people join the United States Marine Corps? Because they want to prove they're better than other people, they want to take on that challenge, right? That is a thousand percent their recruiting strategy, and it works for them time and time again. And I'm not mad at the Marine Corps for it, I just understand what they're doing, and so I can understand where there are people who have this allure to, you know, I'm gonna take on this challenging road because I believe that's it's it's it just can't

The Wolf In Sheep’s Clothing And Control

Gary Wise 39:10

be this easy, right? But unfortunately, it is this easy, it is that easy, right? But then the devil wants to come. We're gonna talk about it here in a second on your on your book, right? But the devil wants you to believe that you've got to earn your way into all into the grace of God, and that's just unfortunately just not true. So I'm glad to hear that you're that you came through it all and that you've reconnected at least with your kids.

Athena Dean Holtz 39:36

Well, let me let me. I didn't really answer, I didn't really answer your question. I felt bad. Um, okay, I did the first thing I did was I called my ex husband and said, You were right, I was wrong. Please forgive me.

Gary Wise 39:51

So he did, but oh, that's awesome.

Athena Dean Holtz 39:55

But he's he's he was at that time on his third marriage. From the time we divorced to that time. So it wasn't reconcilable. Yeah. But it was healthy. For you know.

Gary Wise 40:09

Yeah, closure for sure. If that's even a thing, but at least you had the conversation, right? Yes. We had the conversation.

Athena Dean Holtz 40:17

And the kids all, I mean, two of them uh I had been estranged, three of them I had been estranged from the whole time. And um, so just two of them walked away from God over that whole thing. And so we're still, you know, there's still a lot of healing to happen, but we're all connected and that got restored, and all my friends that got alienated, they're all my friends again, and so yeah, all of that was very important to me to be able to get through, but also, and this is just the probably the most important thing that this is the thing that makes me say, you know, I wouldn't trade it as bad as that 13 years was, and as destructive as it was, I wouldn't trade it. And here's why because as I asked the Lord, what the heck was that? How what was wrong with me that I would believe the truth is a lie, or that I would believe the a lie was the truth and give up everything for it when it wasn't the truth at all, right? And he showed me three things. Number one was that my unhealed trauma made me vulnerable to deception, and so it was my disobedience, you know, he was trying to get me to go get some healing, and I refused, which left me prey to the enemy to, you know. I mean, if in if we're walking in disobedience, the enemy can have a field day, which he did and led me right to this uh just wolf, yeah. So, so first of all, seeing that that was what made me vulnerable all my life, vulnerable to Scientology, to all these different things that were not the real thing, right? And so it was like, Lord, forgive me, you're right, I'm wrong, I need to repent for that and take action and start doing something about that healing that you want me to have.

Gary Wise 42:35

Right.

Athena Dean Holtz 42:35

The second thing he showed me was if I I mean, I had been a believer for 13 years before I got sucked into that wolf and his wife's organization. It was a cult as far as I'm concerned. Um I did not know the difference between scripture in context and out of context. I had no I didn't know what what that even meant, but the scripture says we're supposed to be Bereans rightly dividing the word of God. I did not take that seriously, and that is a pretty much of a command, and I did not, so they used all sorts of scriptures out of context to justify what they were doing, and it was all I mean, oh my goodness, that was huge, yeah. And then the final thing was he showed me that basically I ignored every red flag that God was like, Hey, hey, hey, you're on the wrong path. He was doing that during that entire 13 years.

Gary Wise 43:46

But I wouldn't even I'd give you some grace there though, and I would say you were probably just not aligned with the spirit to actually recognize it because you were so focused on all the other crap they were feeding you, and they were using those catchphrase verses, right, to pound you a certain way. And I give people grace when they miss the spirit, and I give myself grace when I miss the spirit, right? Because typically because I'm so focused on what Gary thinks he wants, and not you know, asking God, is this for me? Yes or no, is this something you think is for me? And I believe that one of the biggest gifts God's ever given to us is our free agency, our freedom to make choices, but we do not get to choose the consequences, right? Like, so it's like that choose your adventure book when you were a little kid. When I was a kid, I had these books called Choose Your Adventure books, and you got the opportunity to choose which page you were gonna go to, where you're gonna go left or are you gonna go right? But then you don't get to choose what's written on the next page, you just have to make the choice, right? And so what especially when I have big decisions or just in life in general, or when things are not I I just try to be in a space where I can God ask God if help me make the right choice, try to make the right choice based on the circumstances of the consequences, or give me the strength to handle the consequences and the lesson that I'm going to have to go through because of my own, you know, choices or whatever it is. So I would give you some grace there because it sounds like it was a very challenging 13 years. Yes, and that's a walk. That's that is that's almost a biblical walk, right? In my personal opinion, because when you look back on it, um, I mean, again, two different times you went through these trick, these strangely challenging, hyper sensitive religious experiences, and the second one, unfortunately, cost you just a lot.

Athena Dean Holtz 45:51

Everything, right?

Gary Wise 45:52

Everything, well, not everyone. I mean, you're you're back up and you're moving and you're standing tall on your two feet, right? And so maybe not everything, but you had to really you had you had to get your job on, right? You had you had to you had to get that that walk of faith on to be where you are today, right? And all of that is not gonna be for nothing. I believe that ultimately there's going to be good that comes out of it, and so get with you, you reconnect with your kids, they're going through their life. What do you do after you come out of that phase to take care of yourself? Because now you're essentially us alone in the world. Yes, you've got friends, yes, you've reconnected with emotional connections, but you're essentially living alone and trying to figure out what does life look like now for Athena, right?

Athena Dean Holtz 46:43

Right, right, and that was I mean, the first decision that I made once I came to my senses and realized that was not God, because I I pretty much walked away saying if this is God, I don't want him.

Gary Wise 46:59

Right.

Athena Dean Holtz 47:00

And when I went to a lawyer and he looked at the sale paperwork and said, fraud, fraud, this is ridiculous. I mean, he was like so angry at what they did to me, but that was great because I realized with that that that was not God, and I could not hold that against him and be mad at him because, and that's kind of what took me into a place of reflection of saying, okay, what do I need to own that I had to do? You know, where where did I make some wrong choices to end up here? And so at that point, I knew that I needed to spend some major time. I actually borrowed three months of living expenses and counseling expenses to not have to work, to not do anything but get some healing and work with a counselor who took. I mean, I did like two days a week that were almost full days. So it was like pretty much healing on steroids, and it and there's and I continue to find new things that I need healing from and I need to grieve, but it was a a huge kind of I'm

Red Flags, Scripture In Context, And Isolation

Athena Dean Holtz 48:20

not gonna look for work, I am not gonna spend any time, you know. I'm no causes, no dating, no, no, nothing, none of that. I'm gonna just focus on what God wants to restore in my soul and heal in my soul, and it was it was amazing. I would not have that three months was it was exactly what I needed.

Gary Wise 48:45

Good. What around what time frame was that? What year was that around?

Athena Dean Holtz 48:50

That was 2000 and um I left in November on November 11th, 2011, Veterans Day, right? 2011. And so it was, you know, I got through Thanksgiving and um Christmas with my kids locally, and then uh worked with his counselor for three or four months, and then I ended up going to San Antonio mid 2012 to help my brother with my mom who was on hospice. And that was just an amazing experience. We had a rocky road, her and me, and it was it was a real uh time where I was able to just sacrifice for her and minister to her, even though half the time she didn't remember who I was, and you know, even if when she did remember who I was, it was painful because I mean she wrote me out of the will, she wrote, you know, it was yeah, I I was not not a daughter to be praised at all.

Gary Wise 50:00

Well, again, you're you were on your journey and you're on your life, and she had her thoughts, right? And you know, I think that when it comes to age, um it's almost when especially when it comes to trauma, stress, anxiety, panic, all these things. Unfortunately, this is something that I am having to work with as I'm getting older, is realizing that it's not as easy for me to keep that stuff figured out because some of the stuff I'm never gonna lose, right? I had to come to terms with, and to your point about the whole idolatry conversation you had earlier, I agree that anything you obsess about is an idol, right? If you're not obsessing about God, right, then it's probably an idol, but unfortunately, some of us have such challenges that we can't help it because there's always physical things that are always distracting you that are connected to these mental health challenges, and it's just real, right? And trying to find the place to like what can I do to get the balance restored in my life so I'm not idolizing my my ang my mental health challenges is is key. And I and I say this not just for my own challenges at 48 years old, but for even for the kids that I teach at school, 16, 17 years old, that will go out of their way to tell me their challenges and their diagnoses, and then I'll tell them, Oh, I appreciate you telling me that. Thank you, but the world does not care. Like at some point, you have got to figure out the way to find success because you're a baby. I do not want you to limit yourself and your journey because unfortunately you've been told it, or you do have at this young age these challenges, but then as I've gotten older and my body is changing on me, and like my as my wife is going through her light, her role, her her roller coaster and her body is changing. Those are just real things, right? That your chemistry is getting thrown off, and your hormones are getting thrown off. And oh, by the way, you got all this freaking trauma you still gotta deal with, and you're not able to manage it as easily as maybe as you were before when you were just gritting your teeth and locking it in. Um, and so I just I think it's an interesting thing as we get older, and when you tell me tell me about your mom and her maybe not remembering you, and then when she does remember you, the challenges I was able to spend my dad's last week with him on this earth. Um, I he went to hospice. I flew in from Guam at the time, and I just I was fortunate to be there, and it didn't require longer than that, right? But I was able to see him go over just a five-day period just quickly downhill, and it's just it's it's just one of those things that's a little eye-opening as you get to the end of our lives or as we all age a little bit, that the way we handle this stuff is a little is gonna be different, right? So if you don't get it taken care of when you're younger, it's it could I mean it could really be hard to manage, especially if you're an elderly person that has things beyond your control, like dementia or Alzheimer's or whatever it is, plus baggage, right? Right, right, which is another reason to try to get yourself as healthy as possible as you work through your life, right? So you cannot be idolizing your challenges, but instead be balanced and hopefully following to the best of your ability God and and the things He would like to lay out for you, and helping people out and letting them know your your story so they can best learn from your journey and not have to have their own craziness happen because they can they can be like, Oh man, Athena talked about this, and I'm not gonna do that. This guy sounds like a freaking wolf, man. Like, I'm gonna be careful with this guy. Um, so coming through all that after your mom passes, uh last 10-15 years, did you just did you find yourself eventually get called back into this space where you're gonna work on fixing things to make things better? Did you just focus on Athena? Did you pull yourself? Did you get pulled back into? I mean, you said are you in the ministry now or something along those lines? Is that correct?

Athena Dean Holtz 54:20

Well, Redemption Press is a publishing company, it is a for-profit company, but we treat it like a ministry. It's okay, so it's it's a ministry slash business. Um, but that was an amazing story because you know, everything that they made me sign when I signed the business away uh was like a you know non-disclosure, uh non-compete. Like I couldn't stand next to a book in a store and you know, without being in violation of the non-compete. I mean, it was crazy what they forced me to do for that ten dollars that I got. Um and so it took about four years for them to basically suck every dollar out of that company that they could, and that's what they did. They completely ruined the reputation. They just, you know, it was it was sad. And um, I I was kind of on the outside for most of that, so a lot of one of me getting out and 2012 reconnecting with some of those authors who had experienced that loss of me in leadership and what happened with the new leaders, and um, so it was a lot of time of me just um doing whatever I could do to encourage these authors who had really they that now they had their own trauma from wine press being hijacked, and um so it was about four years in. It was Jan, I was like at this time, I was had gotten a radio show. I'd been offered a radio show in San Antonio. I thought this was my new life, I was gonna live in Texas and I was gonna have my radio show that was every Saturday, and it was amazing. And um then all of a sudden, right after January 1st, 2014, um, I get a text from my former landlord saying, Hey, uh these guys are out of business. I just had to put a lock on the door. And would you be willing to come back and help these authors get back? You know, they don't have a publisher anymore. Would you be willing to do that? And I'm just like, of course I would be willing to do that. It's the least I can do for my bad decision and my bad uh, you know, judgment of these people. And so uh that that was what uh ended up happening like within three weeks, like from the first of January to January 27th was our launch date for Redemption Press. And the crazy thing is because

Hitting Bottom And Choosing Intensive Healing

Athena Dean Holtz 57:30

they didn't declare bankruptcy, because if they had declared bankruptcy, everything would have pointed back to the wolf, right, and he would he would be exposed. So they didn't go that direction, and because of that, the landlord could say, Here you go, here's your office, here's the servers, here's all the files, here's all the customer lists, here's everything computers and desks and all the things that were mine, right? Before, and now he was saying, just move in, do whatever you need to do. I support you.

Gary Wise 58:12

Very good.

Athena Dean Holtz 58:12

And see, if they had done the uh bankruptcy, I never would have had any of that stuff because it all would have gone and been sold off, you know, those customer lists and the all the files and all the things. I mean, that was worth money, yeah. And so just for it to happen that way so that God could just redeem, like, and that's why redemption press, it was a very fitting name, and God just gave me a second chance.

Gary Wise 58:48

You know what's funny about that is so the word redemption is one of my favorite words. I actually have a tattoo that goes across the my shoulder. My back is tattooed, right? But across my back, the word redemption is tattooed across my back, and it's an anagram, so you can go both ways because unfortunately, redemption. It's I I tend to go backwards and forwards, but ultimately there's always redemption available, right? And so I'm very I I and I think it's a very powerful word, so it's a very good name for your press and for for your company. And I'm I'm super happy that it all worked out for you. And and so now you're here, you wrote this book recently, you recently published this book. What was it that caused you to want to write this book no longer hidden? Like now, what was that? That how long did this book take you to write? What made you decide you wanted to release it to the world now? What was it about this message, these messages, that you felt like now was the time?

Athena Dean Holtz 59:47

Well, uh, that's a loaded question, but it's a great question because a year and a half ago, after struggling for two years, forget trying to forgive. Some people that treated my husband very badly. I'm now married to a man who was uh pastoring for 50 years. He had uh founded uh this local church in our area um about 38 years before. And so he was the founding pastor. He initiated a merger with a younger pastor and his wife and the elder board, many of whom were friends of his for many years. And what was supposed to be a five-year kind of fade for him to just kind of step back a little bit and a little bit, uh, they basically pushed him out. It was a very painful ousting that I was so indignant. I was so, I mean, it was some righteous anger, but I know what the scripture says, and you're supposed to forgive, regardless of anything. They don't have to repent, they don't have to admit they were wrong, none of those things. And I for two years I was like, okay, Lord, I forgive them. I was standing on that scripture that talks about in your anger, do not sin, don't go to bed angry, or you give the devil a foothold. So every night I would say, Lord, I forgive them. I don't feel like it, I don't want to, but I do it anyway. I choose to forgive.

Gary Wise 1:01:33

Right.

Athena Dean Holtz 1:01:34

Well, that didn't really work very well. I mean, two years later, I'm still it's like spiritual whack-a-mole every day.

Gary Wise 1:01:42

Because you say that at night, then you wake up in the morning, you're like, I'm still angry with them.

Athena Dean Holtz 1:01:46

Exactly. Exactly. So I'm I relax relate. Yep, I'm like, Lord, I need to be able because there's another scripture, and I don't know where it is, but it says you need to forgive from the heart. Okay, so I'm like, Lord, how do I do that? Because I'm failing miserably. And the first thing he did was just whisper to my heart, your battle is not with flesh and blood. So I'm like, okay, Lord, could you expand on that for me? And he brought back to my mind that the house that this pastor and his wife purchased about 12 years ago used to be occupied by some of the guys that were part of the cult that took my publishing company away. And I'm like, okay, all right, this is fishy. This is okay. So I started like Lord, help me review kind of what happened to me that shoved me out, and then what happened to Ross. I need to see this clearly because this is a little freaky. And well, the minute they got Wine Press out of my name and into theirs April 1st, April, 2010, they immediately with no notice cut my pay in half. The pastor and his wife and Elderboard, right after everybody voted on the merger, they cut his pay in half without any notice. And I'm like, okay, this is just a little too uncanny here. Then I looked and I said, What's the next one? And he sh and he the Lord showed me and reminded me that after they got the business out of my hands, they started reducing me to like minimum jobs, and that's how I ended up cleaning bathrooms for minimum wage after being the founder, right? And then I looked at what they did. They said, Well, you can't, oh, you can only preach maybe once or twice a year, and you know, you can take care of the seniors couple every other week, so same vibe of taking away what each one of us knew was what we did and what we thrived at. And then the third thing was I remembered that, and this was kind of the defining moment that opened my eyes was I got a signed certified, you know, request to have it signed letter from the wolf's attorney saying, We think you owe this money, and how dare you not pay this bill? It was like use tax when you move a company

Restoration, Family Reconnection, And Grief

Athena Dean Holtz 1:05:10

from one uh person to another person, they have to pay like sales tax, only it's called use tax. And they were trying to pin that on me. Like, no, that was for them. But I was like, I was trying to figure out how to do it because I was sure they shamed me into thinking I owed that, and so I got that letter from the attorney saying, if you don't do this within whatever period of time, we're gonna have to take legal action. And I'm like, wait a second, isn't there something in the Bible that says you don't sue a brother? Right? I'm like, okay, so that was like the beginning of the end for me, right?

Gary Wise 1:05:56

But then when did you think that with by them living in that house there was like a correlation to like a like a demonic influence?

Athena Dean Holtz 1:06:02

Like a spirit, absolutely, okay.

Gary Wise 1:06:05

That's what I was wondering too. That's a if there was a uh a spirit influence because you still live around that same neighborhood, that same area, that same community, and that you had all that other stuff happen in, and then of course, your your now husband was in that church, those people lived in that house. What did your husband think about that uh thought process?

Athena Dean Holtz 1:06:27

Well, I mean, he he it made it was the only thing that made sense on how people could turn and be that mean, and you know, it just didn't even make sense, and so to see the parallel, I mean that happened to me 20 years earlier. This was happening to him now, right? But it's the same spirit because that wolf and his wife they were demonically inspired to to do what they did and what they have done to hundreds of other people over the last 40 years, 50 years, whatever. Right, that's that's an unholy spirit that I think you know still has some kind of footprint in this town. Because I have seen I have seen the new age move into this town in a huge way, that uh, you know, along with uh witches night out and with a you know, just so many events.

Gary Wise 1:07:34

The Pacific Northwest is an eclectic group. Yes, uh, I've been up there to go to the Bremerton Naval Base and to go to I I've been to those areas. I've been to downtown Seattle and and and you know had some good times. And so yeah, it it's definitely got some eclectic crowds, and I and I yeah, as long as you've been there, you've seen you've seen the transition and the journey, I'm sure. And I'm sorry to hear that your husband's ministry and and the church that he gave so much of his life to ended a way that was less than what he'd hoped for. Because I again I can relate, right? I mean, uh I don't know that unfortunately, I wish that organizations would not treat people when they're leaving in a bad way because people are almost always and the military was the same way. It's like as soon as you say you're leaving, we're just you're dead to us then because we've got other things to go take care of, and you're no longer a part of the team, you're a quitter, right? And and I would try my, I mean, I was unfortunately part of that crew too when I was rowing, and then I got the chance to go through that transition, and I got the I got the chance to see how that was and to learn the from the era of my ways, and I hope that and if I ever get opportunities in the future to help people as they especially retire, transition, choose to leave one career and start another career, that there's not a lot of you know agony put on them because it is a lot to go through as you're making those choices, right? And yeah, how's how is your husband doing now? A couple of years after it all happened, is he doing okay now?

Athena Dean Holtz 1:09:07

He's he's continuing to process, and I mean, really seeing this in living color like this is a spiritual battle. It's it's he operated the same exact this this that unholy spirit acted the same way in both situations, it was just too familiar to deny, and so I mean that helped him and a lot of the family come to grips with what happened because then it was and me to be able to forgive from my heart because I realized okay, it's not just them behaving badly, it is a spiritual war, and it is a spirit that was stirring up the anger and stirring up the discontent and all the things that came together that just were totally overdone. I mean, like, what is happening here? It was real, it was very chaotic, but to then see it from that lens, our battle is not with flesh and blood. And the other thing the Lord kind of just whispered to me was you cannot resist what you do not recognize. I didn't recognize that it was a whole demonic uh influence going on with them, and you know, I got duped by that same unholy spirit as part of that cult, so there, but by the grace of God, go I could forgive them now because I got duped by the same thing.

Gary Wise 1:10:47

Well, and I can relate to that, you cannot resist what you cannot recognize because I will tell you from the military perspective, uh, you don't get to choose whether or not somebody's gonna attack you or be at war with you, but if you're not paying attention to them, you're going to get smacked hard, bad, and and it's gonna hurt you, right? So you have got to pay attention. And we've been told, I mean, you're a kid on the playground. If you get told another kid on the playground what has ill will towards you and wants to do you harm, if you don't pay attention to that, it might cause you harm, right? Um, and so you have got to at least be you may not want the problem, you may not want to have the conflict, you may not want to have the the argument or the difficult conversation or the battle, if you will. But if you just deny it, you're going to unfortunately lose every time because it's not going to stop the

Redemption Press: A Second Chance Story

Gary Wise 1:11:40

enemy from attacking, right? It's just that doesn't work like that. And so you must if you recognize things are not going the way you would like them to go, you need to figure you need to pray for recognition, right? Pray for God, what is going on? And is it my is this a result of my choices, or is this a result of somebody else's choices that are affecting me? Because I I tell my my children in a car accident, it's not always God's will that somebody gets crashed in a car, right? Unfortunately, it's somebody possibly out there taking risk into their hands and they may affect somebody else, and that's not always just going to be explainable as being God's will, it's just the reality of we can in a in the world of bumper cars of life, people may unfortunately cause other people trauma and harm because they're not paying attention to what they're going through and how it can affect other people. But if you're a defensive driver and for the most part, you can avoid 99% of the accidents out there as long as you're paying attention to the signs and you're not putting yourself in a position that you're gonna get hit. I mean, if you're parked at a stoplight, then you're just in it, you're sitting duck, whatever you can't control that one. Um, and so when I when I first read that in your book and I saw that piece about you cannot you cannot uh you have to recognize well, you can't resist something until you recognize it. I thought that was powerful because I concur a thousand percent, right? And and I am happy to recognize the danger because I'm a sheepdog, right? That that's there's wolves out there and there's sheep, but I think my job is to be a sheep dog, my job is to help defend the sheep and to help fight off the wolves and to to not be afraid of that conflict, but also to follow the shepherd and let him give me the go-ahead rule. And it's not my job to pick and choose when and where to go, but we have got to pay attention to the signs, or you're going to lose a sheep, right? A wolf's gonna get one, and we missed we missed the signs because we weren't paying attention. Yeah, I think the next one. Yep.

Athena Dean Holtz 1:13:55

Well, I was just gonna say that what came out of that whole thing with us with me recognizing that that was the same spirit at work. Um, God had wanted me uh in 1997, we first published as that Point Man Ministries, we published a book called Behind Enemy Lines, and it detailed how the Viet Cong used guerrilla warfare, and how that is exactly the same as the way Satan operates and the kinds of strategies he uses against us are just like the Viet Cong and that guerrilla warfare was in Vietnam. And that was the most powerful book we ever put out, and it was very short-lived because we got hijacked and went off into doing wine press and then got uh, you know, that all imploded. But that was one of the things that God reminded me of was this message is important for the body of Christ to understand. You got to understand how the enemy operates, or you can't resist him, you're gonna be blindsided, and so that's it. Was like, okay, this is my moment. I knew he wanted me to do it years ago, but I got distracted with other things, and I knew it was time to take the basics that I learned from Point Man during that time on guerrilla warfare and bring it up to modern day, telling current stories, and so that's what that ended up being, and it's just it came out at the end of October.

Gary Wise 1:15:48

Nice. You know what I like about the the guerrilla warfare analogy, or the Viet Cong is something that is I mean, it's very, very painful for those of us that that had a connection to the Vietnam War or that paid attention to what happened over there. But I will tell you that that's just war, right? Whether we're fighting the people in Afghanistan, Iraq, uh hell, us trying to get away from the British and us using guerrilla warfare tactics in the swamps of Florida, war is just hell. Yeah, and the day are there's no rules, right? There is no, you know, remember the there was that theory back in the old days, even before our independence, where they would all march out there and face each other on the on the battlefield, and they were just gonna the officers would not get shot at because that was unbecoming of a man, and Americans were like, We don't give a damn, like we're gonna kill all y'all, like that. That movie The Patriot with Mel Gibson, where he was leveraging their naive perspectives as to what war could be, because he he learned from the Native Americans that war was hell, and however you were gonna win, you're gonna win. And unfortunately, the devil has that level of energy, right? Like he does, he is willing to pull you right into the mud, he wants to drown you in that puddle of blood, and no problem, right? And for people that think that that's unfair, they don't understand that the enemy always gets a vote, right? The enemy, you don't get to choose whether or not the enemy gets a vote. And I love where you talked about not only does the the not only will they use subtle tactics, right? That it looks like it's right, right? It sounds like it's right, it's it's it's almost exactly what it needs to be. And if you're not paying attention to more than just what they're saying, you might get tricked, right? Because it's got to be more than just you've got to be aligned with the spirit, you've got to be understanding as to what their position is, and what do they want out of this, whatever's going on? You have to understand what do you take, what do you stand to lose in this moment that and that's any conflict, right? I thought that was a powerful piece of the book that you put down, how they leverage truth against us, or or with the perception as to what could be truth when it's really it's veiled, right? It's not true, right?

Athena Dean Holtz 1:18:14

And the a and the devil comes as an angel of light, he masquerades as an angel of light.

Gary Wise 1:18:20

Do you know what you know? I learned something not too long ago that kind of blew my mind, and it that we live in the i mean, everyone always said we live in the devil's playground, right? But ultimately, this is the devil's world, this ain't God's world, God's world's heavy, right? This is his world, and we are all put down here to have our experiences, to have our journeys, and we've got all we need to survive and to be successful and to thrive here, right? But do not think that we have the upper hand the minute you start to think you've got the upper hand. Besides, we have we've been saved, right? We have that, but a lot of people unfortunately lose, which is everything, right? But people lose sight of the goal when they start to think that they've got it all figured out, and then it goes back to you were talking about earlier the whole idolatry thing, because we don't have anything figured out without God, right? My mom says, You want to hear God laugh, tell them you got a plan, right? Yeah, you want to hear God laugh, you tell them you got a plan, right? And and and and that's huge, right? And I and I think when it comes to the message of your book, it's just for people that are trying to wreck recognize that they've got to reinvent themselves or they've got to possibly get back onto a road that's going the right direction, or they've got to change something about their life. It's recognizing that some of the truths they've unfortunately possibly been following are maybe not as accurate as they believe them to be, you know. Um, you have one of the things about forgiveness being one of the most powerful weapons on our arsenal, and look, it's everything.

No Longer Hidden: Why Write It Now

Gary Wise 1:20:00

Right, forgiveness is everything. I read a book one time where it said that if you let hate in your heart, it's like venom from a spot from a like snake. And if you don't get the venom out, you're gonna you're gonna, of course, you're gonna die. So, how did you how have you learned since this whole thing with the two years past? And how have you learned to better leverage forgiveness to make it a better more or what's your advice to somebody who's struggling and forgiving someone um to make it be a better weapon than their arsenal?

Athena Dean Holtz 1:20:31

Well, I think recognizing, um, and I always say, look, God forgave me when I didn't deserve it. So why shouldn't I forgive you, even though maybe you don't deserve it? And to come to that place, first of all, not only realizing that we didn't deserve it, but that God is sovereign and he allows all sorts of struggles and temptations and trials. And I mean, he doesn't say get saved and it's gonna be easy peasy. No, he says that in this life you will have trials, but I am with you always, right? And so to understand that, that I mean, most people in as Christians are kind of to one extreme or the other. They're either, oh, I'm saved. I don't need I don't need to worry about the devil, I'm saved, you know, like the devil made me do it. No, or you know, there's a devil under every door, yeah, and it's total obsession with you know all sorts of craziness, right? God wants us in the middle. We need to recognize our enemy and know how he trips us up and know the things that he uses on us all the time because they work, because we can't resist him, like scripture says, surrender yourself to God, submit to God, resist the devil, and he has to flee. Well, we can't resist him if we don't recognize him, and that's I mean, it's just no, it's a fact, yeah.

Gary Wise 1:22:17

And I like you were talking about earlier, how you would go to bed praying to God, asking for the ability to forgive, and then unfortunately, you would struggle with that. And and I made the joke about well, because you woke up in the morning and you remember that you're still upset about it, you know. And but that's unfortunately, it's that that cycle is just too true, you know. And what I've found because I I still struggle with forgiving people that I feel like have wronged me, and I I may have to deal with that for a long time, and I'm constantly when I pray to God, it it's not just forgiveness that I'm trying to give to them, but I also need to be able to have healthy boundaries where I don't always think about it, right? Like I would like to learn how to not work think about those things, worry about those things, remember those things because the life that I'm living now is no longer affected by them any longer, if that makes sense. And moving forward is always the right thing to do because and this too shall pass, right? It's gonna come to pass, like nothing stays the same, nothing stays permanent, and typically the wrongs are in our back are behind us, but it's super hard when it really just hurts, or it's you for me, it's when it's unfair. When it's unfair, I really struggle with that, which is why when we did we did that thing with the widow and the and the unfair judge, it was therapeutic because I'm trying to explain to a bunch of 12-year-olds about why the the widow she needs to take her her her concerns to God because she's not going to get to be the one that changes the judge's mind to get what she wants, right? And it's not always that's just not how it always works, right? Right. Um, well, but but I go ahead. Oh well, and I just when it comes to the devil using his tools and using his influence to attack us or to attack you to attack anyone. That part of it, I I think it would be in that unfairness, right? Because he's gonna he he knows for whatever the reason that really hurts us, right? I wonder what it is about unfairness that really just just gets us. Well, think about Job.

Athena Dean Holtz 1:24:28

I mean, talk about unfair. The guy was righteous, yeah, yeah. No, no, Job said, go ahead.

Gary Wise 1:24:35

Yeah, no, I did a whole we did a whole men's group Bible study on Job about two years ago, and I learned so much about that, not just that book, but the different, like you said earlier, context, how much context matters, right? And not just get hearing a not just hearing like a verse here or there, but like understanding like what does the Satan mean? And that this is the Satan is really just an the adversary, right? He was the opposition, and the whole storyline behind this example as to why this person was put through all of these challenges, but kept coming back to God and never never wavered, even though we had all these different challenges, and yeah, you know, and then when I look to Jesus as an example, I mean so many different things that I can look to as examples. Um, but like you say in the book, don't think the fight's not happening today, right? Because people will talk like, oh, it's it's not happening anymore, the devil's not out there anymore. People will act like in 2020 2026 is not the same as the New Testament, or it's not the same as Job. On the reverse, unfortunately, we're still seeing on the news today that people of faith are under attack, yeah. Right, and yeah, and that you you talk about in the book where you know the church, first of all, you can't be it's not paranoid to think that there's evil spirits in the world that are trying to compromise people, it's just that's a fact, right? So you have to be prepared to spiritually fight back, and it's not gonna be with like I mean, what do you what do you think is the best way to fight spiritual warfare? Is just is it prayer? Is prayer the best way to go? The word of God and prayer. Yep, the word of God and prayer. Okay, so the word of God and prayer, stay close to the word of God and pray, but then also recognize that I love where you said the church must go from silence to being bold, and I I believe that in my heart. People have I'm blessed to live in the state of Florida, I call it the free state of Florida because you know, when I was in Guam during COVID, living on a federally subsidized island under all of the restrictions that we were put under. I remember watching Florida on the news and just being like, Man, look at them, they're out there living their best life, you know, they're putting it in God's hands, you know, they got these stickers all over the place that says faith, not fear, right? And and it's just part of why I chose to retire here, is because I wanted to choose to live in a community that has similar ideas, and we now put up in our in our classrooms that is we put uh posters up and say one nation under God, right? And I and I think it's important that Christians and leaders of the of the Christian faith, especially in the American Christian faith, which is ours, would even though there's not really nationality attached to it, but I think the American Christians have the lead right now for the world when it comes to following Jesus Christ. We've got to be unapologetic, right? Unapologetic. And I'm not I'm not saying we gotta be abrasive, but the word of God is the way in. And unfortunately, there is a only a small doorway into the heaven, and it's through Jesus, right? You gotta get through, you gotta go through Jesus to get there. But the goal is to get the word out to as many people as possible, which your book, your book is an amazing opportunity for people to not just uh hopefully course correct, because is that who you're hoping to read your book as people that are looking for a way to get back on track?

Athena Dean Holtz 1:28:13

Well, I think many of us we think we're on track, and we are not seeing

Spiritual Warfare Parallels And Forgiveness

Athena Dean Holtz 1:28:20

the areas where the enemy is fighting to wear us out, to make us ineffective, to make us doubt ourselves when God has given us something to do. So I don't think it's just for those who are trying to find their way back, but anyone who wants to uh grow and have the weapon understand the weapons that they already have. God has given us everything we need for life and godliness. We don't need to go find it from some prophet or some prosperity preacher or some new age kind of thing that sounds cool.

Gary Wise 1:29:01

No, that part, yeah. That there are no gatekeepers, right? There are no, which is a big word right now in our culture, but it's just a reminder that with technology today, everybody has access to the information to be not only saved, but to be able to inspire other people to come to come to come find that there's plenty of room at the table, right? So, Athena, if somebody was looking to buy the book or to buy your book, I mean, of course, I'm gonna put the information in the video and all the podcast stuff, but where would you like for them to go to to purchase your book? Do you have a website you want them to go to?

Athena Dean Holtz 1:29:36

Oh, well, they can certainly go to Athena Holtzspeaks.com. Okay, but it's also on Amazon, so I know most people.

Gary Wise 1:29:47

So okay, amazing. I'll I will make sure that I get that information out there when I put the video out and the podcast hits the streets. Um man, I you know, I I want to thank you so much for sharing your story, for sharing your journey. Uh Athena, is there anything that you would like to talk about that we have not yet covered during our time together today?

Athena Dean Holtz 1:30:10

I would just say that it is true that forgiveness is probably the biggest weapon that we have, and unforgiveness is the way the enemy wants to keep you from obeying God. So the lie that we don't really realize that we're assuming, and he wants us to assume, is that forgiving someone means what they did is okay. Nope, not true. Forgiving someone means you you trust them again. Not true. Trust is earned, forgiveness is commanded, right? And really just understanding that you're doing it because you're trying to honor God and you are not required to be in fellowship to invite that person back into your family so he can do whatever you know you're still trying to get over him doing. Those are all things the enemy would like you to think because that is not the truth, and that is not what forgiveness is.

Gary Wise 1:31:20

Right, you need to put that on a t-shirt. Trust is earned, forgiveness is commanded. Yep, yep, that was amazing. All right, Athena, thank you so much for the time. Everybody, we're gonna wrap it up here. Uh, I really do appreciate every all everything, the conversation, and just everything about the book. And hopefully, everybody wants to go out there and get a copy of the book. And at a minimum, check out Athena's website and and look into what she's talking about. And thank you all for listening to the two of us talk about life, and we really appreciate everyone and the words from the wise podcast. They're gonna keep rolling on. Thank you very much, Athena. I'm gonna go ahead and close off here, okay? All right, all right, thank you, man. We'll talk to you a minute. Bye.