What If The Most Hated Man Was Necessary

Judas is one of the most recognized names in history, yet most of us never stop to ask a simple question: if the crucifixion is essential to Christianity, was Judas Iscariot destined to betray Jesus, and if so, what does that mean for free will, guilt, and redemption? We wrestle with that tension alongside Ocala author Steve Marks, whose faith-based fiction novel Judas Otherwise reimagines Judas with a backstory, real motives, and a human struggle rather than a cardboard villain. 

We also talk about the courage it takes to stop hiding creative work, especially after years of doubting yourself. Steve shares how he chased different careers, learned what didn’t fit, and kept coming back to storytelling. Along the way we get into education and work ethic, why “learning how to learn” matters more than the title on your diploma, and how on-the-job reality can challenge your values fast. 

Steve’s entrepreneurial streak shows up too, from QR-code business ideas shaped by pandemic-era change to a QR medical alert band built to help first responders access critical info in seconds. That leads into a practical discussion on execution, networking, and building partnerships with people whose skills complement yours. 

If you like Christian fiction, biblical retellings, theology-adjacent “what if” questions, and honest conversations about faith journeys, this one will give you a lot to think about. Subscribe, share this with a friend who loves big questions, and leave us a review. After you listen, do you think Judas had a choice?

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Transcript

Welcome And Ocala Connection

Gary Wise 0:28

All right, everyone. How are you doing today? Welcome back once again. Words from the Wise Podcast. I am super excited today for this conversation, today's episode. There's an author from my area of Florida who recently we connected via social media, and he had sent me a message about the book that he had written recently. And I just thought it was a super interesting topic. And I thought it was I thought it'd be an interesting conversation. And so I wanted to reach out to him and see if he'd be interested in sharing. He agreed. He goes by the name of Mr. Steve Marks. So without further ado, Mr. Marks, welcome to the podcast.

Steve Marks 1:10

Good morning. Thanks for having me here. I appreciate it.

Gary Wise 1:12

Oh man, you are so welcome. And thank you for joining us here. And we were talking briefly uh before I hit record about how we're both in Ocala.

Steve Marks 1:22

Right. Yeah, small world.

Gary Wise 1:25

It is now. Have you always lived in Ocala? Are you from this area?

Steve Marks 1:29

Um, I'm originally from the Miami area, but I've been in Ocala since uh 1990, so it's it's been a long time.

Gary Wise 1:35

Oh, so you've seen Okala kind of grow into what it's becoming now, right? You've you've seen it come a long way then.

Steve Marks 1:42

Oh, yeah. When I first got here, there was um, you know, high highway 40, and that was about it. 200 wasn't built up the way it is, and uh yeah, this the city's come a long way.

Gary Wise 1:53

It yeah, it's it's a super exciting place to live. I didn't plan on living in Ocala when I was in the service. It was just kind of, you know, truthfully, one time my wife and I drove from Clearwater to Jacksonville, we drove up the 75, and I remember thinking, like, man, it must be nice to live in this area, like all this beautiful open area. You can see all the green on the sides of the road. And then, you know, 20 something years later, here we are living in uh one of the most amazing places to live in the country, I think for sure.

Steve Marks 2:24

Yeah, it's definitely a peaceful place. It's it's a little bit more laid back than like I said, I'm from Miami, but you know, people are a lot more friendly and you get to see the growth. And um, you know, we don't have a lot of the the big city problems, although we're we're becoming bigger, but uh it's it's it's a nice place to live. And uh thank you for your service and your sacrifice. Um, appreciate that.

Gary Wise 2:44

Well, thank you very much for that. I appreciate that as well. You know, I I when I when I joined the service many, many years ago, I just was a young man trying to figure out life, right? I just wasn't sure what I was gonna do with myself, and it just ended up working out for me, you know. But now I get the chance to work with teenagers every day as a high school teacher. I'm at Vanguard right here in North Ocala, and I get the chance to try to help them figure it out. And well, my listeners, well, they come from a pretty broad variety of people, but I will tell you a first part of my listeners is my students, right? And so I if you don't mind, I would like to kind of walk back a little bit to when you were in high school and kind of ask you, did you plan on being an author when

Finding The Courage To Publish

Gary Wise 3:30

you were that young?

Steve Marks 3:32

You know, it's it's funny that you asked that because I always wanted to be. I I wrote my first book when I was about eight, 10 years old. There wasn't any technical skill, it was uh about 87 pages of one long paragraph. Um I uh it's something I always wanted to do, and I just never had that self-confidence. You know, I've had written stuff, I had ideas, but it's something that until you know, I just turned 30 for the second time, and I realized that um keeping the stuff hidden wasn't doing me any favors. You know, I even if people didn't like it, I was already deciding for myself that nobody was gonna get to read it, and nobody was gonna get to like it. And whether they did or didn't, you you've got to take that shot. So especially since you're you know, you you deal with with students, you got to take your shot. It doesn't, you know, if it works out, great. And if it doesn't work out, that's okay too, because you learn something from it, and at least you don't sit there wondering, I wonder what would have happened if oh now I do sound like an old guy. But yeah, it's it's it's true that wisdom is there. I mean you've you've got to take a chance, otherwise, you know, you might not you might not succeed, but if you don't try, you're definitely not gonna succeed. So don't steal your own, you know, don't steal your own dreams from yourself.

Gary Wise 4:51

You know, it's so true. I I tell the students you miss 100% of the shots you don't take, right? There you go. Yeah, you've got to be willing to put yourself out there. And unfortunately, there's always risk, there's always fear of possibly being embarrassed or having somebody have a different opinion that's gonna cause conflict. And but you just I think I I would not want to look around at the end of my life and regret maybe not having tried to do something, if that makes if that makes sense. So when you were graduating high school then, did you did you know at that age, like, hey, I wanted to get involved, and I want to go to college, I want to go right into the workforce? Think you're back on the well, you did you graduate high school?

Steve Marks 5:35

Oh, yes. Yeah, I graduated um in from North Miami Beach Senior High. I went to uh the University of Miami on a scholarship and then didn't put out the effort I should have put out and lost that scholarship. Very expensive school. So I ended up um going to Florida Atlantic University and then um I didn't finish college right away, but then I went back to college um in my 30s and got my degree online from Florida State. So I've yeah, I've been all over the place school-wise.

Gary Wise 6:03

Very cool. No, no, I think that matters, right? Because there's no there's no one clear path. All of my, you know, I dropped out of high school as a teenager, uh, ended up joining the military, got my GED, and then throughout my time in the service, I got all of my my college education online, right? And as a matter of fact, it started as distance, like filling out papers and mailing them in before the internet really started. And then eventually I was able to go into the online space. But what I tell the the young people is there's a there's a lot of different paths to it to achieve an education goal if you have one, right? It's just how do you want to achieve that goal? When you look back on your educational journey, how important was that journey to your life? Or was it really just something you you you just wanted to finish? Like, do you look at your educational journey as playing a significant role in your life?

Steve Marks 7:01

Well, the educational journey makes a difference just because if you set goals, it's a good idea to try to complete them, um, to not give up on yourself. I I don't know that my life path would have been a whole lot different if I had chosen to go straight into the workforce um versus going to college. You know, a lot of people, I got my degree in economics and I used it for a short time as a commodities broker, but it it really was it was more you know learning to set goals and complete goals and challenge myself. But you can do that in a classroom, you can do that in the workforce. There are people who are really good with their hands, um, you know, mechanically inclined. I'm lucky if I know which is the right wrench to use. But those are important skills. And you know, if everybody wants to be an influencer now or they want to be programming AI, but you know what? When the when the power goes out and you need somebody to you know get the get the electricity flowing again, or your car brakes, or the computer breaks. I mean, you need there's there's so many things other than just well, I got a degree in uh in I'm a bachelor of arts in you know something that you're never gonna use, but it's not whether you're gonna use it or not. My uh I remember my uncle was a computer programmer when that was a new thing, and his boss had a degree in forestry. You don't know where you're gonna end up or who you're gonna meet along the way, but you know, if that's if that's your thing, then you know you at least give yourself a try, give it a try. You may find out you like it, may you find out you don't, but especially when you're young, you've got all the time in the world to be able to figure out what you want to do and where you want to go. And people look at it as like, oh, I didn't, I I made a mistake, I shouldn't have done this. It's not a mistake. You learn from everything you do, and you just never know what door is going to open along the way.

Gary Wise 8:51

Well said, and I agree, you know. I think I look back on my educational journey. I I truthfully did not care to get any higher education. I did it purely because I know I wanted to make rank, right? And my competitors and my peer group in my community were we were using higher level education as ways to kind of give us better opportunity at promotion, right? There was a time in the Navy they were saying, oh, everybody that wants to make senior chief petty officer is gonna need an associate's degree, and so I remember there was a bunch of the rank and file angry about that because how is an associate's degree gonna make me a better warfighter, right? But but the powers that be really wanted us to invest in ourselves and and do these things,

College Detours And Setting Goals

Gary Wise 9:40

and then the bachelor's degree and the master's degree, and I just kept working at things. And oh, by the way, it didn't hurt that they were offering tuition assistance, right? Like I wasn't paying for it myself, but I had I was having to carve out time. You know, I used to put my family my kids to bed at eight o'clock at night, and I'd be up till midnight doing schoolwork, and we'd be pulling into a Liberty port when I was on board the USS George Washington, and everyone else would be going out hooting and hollering, having a good time, and I'd be on the ship doing my homework, trying to get these things done. But when I look back on my life, it was that work ethic and it was that ability just to stay focused that applied to a bunch of different things in my life that helped me to consistently find success. And to your point, one of the things I've landed on that I that I tell my students about is when I when I see here that somebody finishes a college education, I it's not so much about what they got their education in for me, but it's that they finished something that they said they were gonna do. Right. And in life, it's kind of hard to qualify some of the things you complete because sometimes it's subjective, right? You're gonna tell me all these great things about yourself, but I don't really know how how that all adds up. But when you tell me you got your degree from somewhere, for me, that's a pretty good standard that you met somebody else's expectations and you finished this thing, right? And that that that and that's why they get you in the door, right? To certain conversations and certain opportunities.

Steve Marks 11:11

A lot of people don't realize that it's not necessarily what you're learning, but that you're learning how to learn because there's a difference between just knowing how to swing a hammer and knowing how to build a building or how to, you know, when you're leading in the battlefield, um there's a lot of mental that goes into it. It's not just I'm carrying a gun and I'm gonna shoot the bad guy, it's being able to plan for how you're going to assess a situation. You're writing a paper is really it's not the same thing, but the same kind of planning goes into you're learning to challenge yourself to be able to think and to plan and to execute a plan and to try to see where what's gonna what's gonna work and what isn't gonna work and learn from it. So you may write 50 term papers in a college career, and you're never I don't remember any of the term papers I wrote. I really don't. I mean, it's been a few years, but that wasn't what was important. What was important was I learned how to start with an idea and see where I want to go and then figure out how to get from point A to point B. So the critical thinking that comes with the with the college degree just is going to help you in anything you do. So it's not just I know how to write a paper, it's I know how to plan for my life, I know how to figure out what I want and how I'm going to execute that. So, yeah, that's it's a it's a valuable um set of skills that you learn that you may not learn if you don't at least challenge yourself to try.

Gary Wise 12:42

Right. Yeah, well said. Now, when you got out of college and you said your degree was in economics and you got yourself originally into the space of doing some stuff with with finance, it did you enjoy that? Because I will tell you, I've never met one person come out of a classroom and immediately walk into the job and just be instantly good. Almost everyone needs like on-the-job training, almost everyone needs some sort of understanding how their new organization is gonna work. And sometimes you'll find out like I've got all this education, I got this degree done, but I don't really enjoy this path. And then you've got to adjust. Is that kind of what you saw happen to yourself?

Steve Marks 13:25

Yeah, a lot of it did because you know, when you're young, you have this dream you go, I want to be a football player, and I want to be out there on the field and I'm gonna score the winning touchdown, or you know, you know, lay a pancake block on somebody to spring the running back, or but you don't realize how much other work goes into it. The 60 minutes that you get to play on Sunday is a hundred hours during the week of push-ups and pull-ups and sprints and eating right and toning, you know, toning your body and your mind. It's not just, hey, I'm gonna run around and catch a ball or I'm gonna push people around. And when I got into uh commodities, which in the 80s in South Florida, that's probably before your time a little bit, is but um there are movies like Boiler Room and things like that. And the reality of what being in a commodities broker was, it wasn't just you know picking a you know a market like crude oil or the Japanese yen or something like that, and figuring out if it's gonna go up or down. Most of the time was spent finding clients and dialing number after number, trying to get somebody who doesn't know you in another state to just wire you money so you can invest it for them and hopefully make them some money. And the uh you find out sometimes when you get into things, there's a work ethic or a morality or lack thereof that maybe doesn't fit your personality. And I was young and idealistic, and I I actually did very well to start with, but I wasn't willing to do what needed to be done to be good in that industry at that point in time in that location. It just it turned my stomach a lot seeing, you know, that it the whole thing was about not about making people money, but generating commissions, which there's nothing wrong with. You deserve to get paid for what you do, but you don't have to hurt people to do it. And I didn't want to do that anymore. So I spent a lot of time after that going from one job to another. I was in auto finance, I sold jewelry, I did, I did so many different things, but none of them really fit my personality. I I I could do well at what I was doing, but you have to you really have to love what you're doing. And um, yeah, I didn't. So it was a long journey getting to uh to where I am now. I've invented a couple of things, and um, but you know, where I'm at now and you know, and getting into the writing, which I've always done, but I just never had the courage to put it out there, and now I I'm really enjoying it. I haven't reached any real level of success yet, but like anything else, you you'd like you just said, you know, you even when you find what you love, you're not gonna be insta famous unless maybe you're you're on Instagram, but right it takes a while.

Gary Wise 16:10

It does, and you know what's funny about the movie The Boiler Room in that reference, anyways. I I reference that movie for sales, right? And and and I and I use it as a communication tool because I I teach anybody I work with pretty much is that you're always selling yourself in some in a little bit of a some way, shape, or form, right? You're always trying to communicate to someone, hey, maybe you should listen to my perspective, maybe you should appreciate my opinion, maybe I've got an idea. You're always doing some sort of communication tool and sales is isn't it's a great skill to have. I was a Navy recruiter once upon a time, and it changed my life because it helped me to learn how to be able to talk to people that I wouldn't typically have been open-minded to maybe speak to, right? And then it's through those conversations that you start to get mentorship and you get to different perspectives, and you get the chance to just just learn more things and oh, by the way, get inspiration, which is one of the things I look for in this world. You know, motivation for me sounds good, but it's just motivation gets exhausting. But I love being inspired, I love uh allowing the spirit to kind of come and fill me up and say, hey, there's a good idea over there. Why don't you go check that out, right? And and see what you can do with it. Um, so before I get into the book, I I would like to hit real quick. So you

Learning How To Learn

Gary Wise 17:30

are an entrepreneur, it sounds like you you invented things, you said.

Steve Marks 17:34

Yeah, um, actually just recently, I actually had a business that um was ahead of its time, um, use it using uh QR codes, whatever, to get feedback for businesses. And I actually launched that business about three days before the pandemic shut the world down. And during that time, it became necessary. What I was actually pushing um uh technology-wise, everybody sort of found during the pandemic because they were trying to not to distance themselves. So technology that really wasn't so pervasive before became pervasive. So that kind of killed that plan for me. And then I created a uh a medical alert band with a QR code on it, so that in an emergency, instead of just having one of those old bands that just maybe might say diabetic on it, which is great, but that doesn't really tell you your issue may not be diabetic. So by scanning the QR code, the person's entire medical history would come up. So, in a matter of seconds, a paramedic doctor, nurse would know who you are, what you need, what you're allergic to, instead of, you know, I don't know if you've ever been in a situation, I hope not, where you've had a loved one where you know paramedics have had to come out and you've got like three minutes to give them all the information they need because time is of the essence. And when your loved one is there and they can't speak for themselves, or you know, they may they may be taking so many medications they don't even know what they're on. And all of that information is critical. So I came up with that. I ended up selling that business, and I'm still waiting for that to that to kind of grow. But yeah, I've always been an idea kind of person, which is great, but ideas are one thing. But again, if you can't take the idea and make it into something, you know, it's where you have to you know build those relationships with people who have skills that you don't have instead of trying to do everything yourself, um, makes a whole world of difference. So I've always tried to be well, I didn't try to be, I was just you know, creative ideas where I would always think, what if? What could make this better? Why isn't this a certain way? And that's a great skill set as well, but it requires somebody to be able to people like, well, why don't you patent that? Well, I I don't even know how to make the model. I don't know. I can come up with the idea, but you know, people who do have the skill set of being able to take an idea and do something with it may not be the ones who come up with the idea. So you know, get doing that networking and making the the friendships and finding people who compliment you because they have skill sets you don't, instead of looking at them like, wow, they have something I don't. Well, you probably have something they don't too. So, you know, peanut butter doesn't come with jelly. You got to find the jelly to put it together with it to make the sandwich.

Gary Wise 20:13

So I think there's something special about people that just want to create, right? And I and I believe that uh we as humans, we're a little, I think we're a little happier when we've got something going on, like when we've got we're working on a challenge or a task or an idea or looking forward just like a trip or a travel. And and I will tell you that for me, uh I'm in the entrepreneur space a little bit. I started off with this leadership business. Now I'm really just filling my cup with not just doing the the podcast, but then also working with the kids. And it kind of feels like I'm working for myself there because I'm willing to do way more than they expect of me. And so for the most part, I pretty much get to do what I want to do because if you're willing to do way more than the boss wants you to do, they're just pretty happy with you choosing to do it, right? Right. Uh, but I would I tell people that are kind of struggling and are looking for a way to find kind of the passion for life is maybe you should try to create something, maybe you should try to come up with something that you want to work on, put your energy to. And to your point earlier, you know, some people want to work with wood, some people want to go out and build uh, you know, a sprinkler system for somebody and they want to learn how to do plumbing or whatever. For me, my thing is people, right? I like to work with people and to help them hopefully get access to ideas and see that sparkle in their eye, and and maybe even share, you know, my faith journey and hopefully help lead them to belief systems and to faith that's gonna help them want to live a life that they feel like it's according to their plan, right? Uh and for your faith journey, because your book is written in the faith-based. Space. Right. So have you always been a believer in Jesus Christ or in that path, or is that something you came to as an adult? Uh, how how has that gone for you?

Steve Marks 22:12

Um, it's actually been it's been a journey. Um, I didn't always believe in Christ. Uh, I was born Jewish, and um, that was something that I came to find through other people that uh that meant something to me. And it just fit because you know, a lot of people don't understand about Judaism is that it's not that the Judaism doesn't deny the existence of Christ. They just they didn't necessarily believe that he was the Messiah, but not that he was a fictional fictional character, but his teachings he was Jewish, and his teachings didn't really deviate from the you know from Old Testament. It it sort of clarified things. The world was a different place thousands of years after in the book of Genesis, so it was sort of a completion of of the path. And you know, he never said, I'm not anymore. He just said, Okay, now the world is changing, and here's what we need, and you know, I've come to you know to I've come to save. So it was just it was just a and you know, if you look at the historical records of it, there were you know, there were good reasons not to necessarily believe there was you know the Roman occupation, um people like Jesus caused problems for the Romans and Roman leadership. So, you know, following you know somebody who was saying, hey, I'm the way Caesar is not, was a dangerous thing. And you know, we look back, and um, everybody says, Oh, if I was back there, I would have done this, that, or the other thing. Well, that's not really the way history works, because if you were back there and then and you were raised with a different set of beliefs and a different set of fears and a different set of realities, you might not have done what you think. It's it's always easy to look back at history, you know, in the rearview mirror and go, Oh, I would have done this only because you know how things turned out afterwards. But if you were living back then, you know, would you want to be the one that you know was going to be you know crucified, you know, next to Jesus? Now it'd be like, oh, that would have been an honor to be. But yeah, but back back then that wasn't an honor. That was a very scary thing. So um, yeah, the faith journey has been um it's been an evolving thing, and it will be for most people. You know, what you believe when you're 10 and what you believe when you're 50 are two different things, maybe not completely different, but they evolve as idealism meets reality. And you know, life choices and challenges and struggles that you go through, people you love that disappear, bad things that happen, and you you're when your faith starts to get challenged, it it does, it's it sort of matures into something maybe not as idealistic, but more concrete, and something that actually becomes a thing in your life that focuses you as opposed to just oh, this is you know, everything is great, everything is wonderful, and it would be great if our lives were that way, but uh life comes with challenges, and that's where faith really makes a difference on whether or not you come through those challenges.

Gary Wise 25:14

You know, and and I I appreciate you sharing that. And I will tell you, I was uh born into the Mormon faith, right? The LDS Church, um, which is a society that, you know, they all essentially immigrated from my family, immigrated from you know, England, Scotland, Ireland. They then got to America and walked across the country to Utah and stood up essentially a community

When A Dream Job Feels Wrong

Gary Wise 25:40

of their belief system in their own area, in their own space. And culturally, they very much have their own world, right? And then as I got older, I got access to a lot more different information, I got access to a lot more different uh ideas, and a lot of it's very similar, but then there were some core things that I adjusted on as I got older, and I don't throw stones, right? But I I definitely graduated or matured into you know more of a non-denominational Christian-based belief system. But I remember there was a story when I was a kid that there were all these people trying to make it to this big tree, and they were walking along this big old like rod thing, this like like a walkway holding onto this this rod. And the idea was to not let go of this because it was essentially going to be uh the word of God. And if you stuck to that rod and not got, and on the sides, everyone's trying to pull you and tempt you and and and convince you to come away. Uh, if you if you stick to that rod, uh you're not gonna lose the way to where you're trying to get to. Now, theoretically, you're this person, you can maybe let go of that rod and plunder your way through all the chaos on the outsides of the world and make your way back, right? And keep on pushing, or even fight your way through all the hell that you got to fight through and still get closer to where you're going and maybe recognize hey, there's that rod over there, there's my family, there's whoever I'm looking for to help me. I can get back over there and keep on moving. But it's just, I think for me, it's just recognizing keep one foot going in front of the other. Don't always look behind you, way, you know, wishing, coulda, shoulda, woulda. Why did I never, you know, just don't stop. Just don't stop the progression. And for me, that's been a big part of my faith training because I'm not gonna lie, I'm not always been the most faithful person. And unfortunately for me, it's almost always when I'm going through challenging times that I'm really on that rod, right? I'm like, whoo, I'm locked in, right? I'm locked in. But when I'm feeling pretty comfortable and I'm feeling like, hey, things are going pretty good, I'm like that toddler who's like, I'm gonna let go of this rod for a little bit and show I can walk. I can walk a little bit. Um, so I I just when I think about people on their faith journey, I I I welcome people as long as they keep on pushing, and hopefully they have a North Star and they have a belief system. I think that they'll all it'll all be okay in the long run. Um and and don't be too overly critical of yourself, you know. So, okay, so your book, Judas Otherwise, that's that's the title. And I I love this idea, this concept, because you know, my perspective on Judas is that this is just my opinion, but I kind of believe he had to do what he did, right? I believe that it had to happen, right? Christ had to be betrayed, and the whole process had to get kicked off, had to get started. Uh he so he had to do it, right? It was unfortunate for him that he got to be the guy, right, for whatever the reason, but somebody had to be the betrayer that was going to initiate all of the things that was going to happen that were gonna lead up to, unfortunately, Jesus being being hung up by the on the cross, but then eventually also coming back and rising from the dead and saving us all, right? But in my mind, Judas had to do that, right? And I don't I when I was so and I was looking at your book, I was thinking, like, he wasn't a bad man per se, like he was a believer, he was a follower, he was an apostle. So, how did you land on deciding to write this book?

Steve Marks 29:30

You know, and just like you said, that's something that's always bothered me because I I've done my research, and pretty much everyone who you know says they know what they're talking about agrees, whether it's religious teaching or theology or whatever, um, that Judas had to do what he did. If Christ is not crucified, if he doesn't die for everyone's sins, there is no Christianity. That was the key moment. And you know, the we use words like betrayal, but when something is predestined, I mean that was already planned out. Jesus knew what had to happen to him. So you you kind of wonder, well, is betrayal the right word? And you know, it just sort of bothered me that Judas did something that needed to be done for everybody to be saved, but then he becomes vilified. He's you know, right after Hitler, he's like the greatest uh villain of history. And you know, he just appears. He's I mean, he's there, Jesus finds him, and you go, Well, okay, well, Jesus knows what he's doing when he's picking his apostles, and Jesus loved Judas.

Gary Wise 30:36

Right.

Steve Marks 30:36

But yeah, here he is, he now he gets to make this this horrible decision. But is it a horrible decision? It had to be done. It was there was no choice. And I'm pretty sure that Jesus knew the role for Judas when he picked him and had him walk with him. You know, there was, you know, it depends if you watch, you know, um, you know, like Jesus Christ Superstar or some things like that, where you know, even in the Bible, you know, Jesus has that moment where he's like, you know, lift this cup from me. I don't, you know, I don't really want to do this because he's the you know, he's you know, heavenly in human form. And I guess you know, if you can feel pain, you know, you're doing I don't want to feel pain. Who wants you know who wants to have that happen? But it just seemed like you know, everybody in the world and Christianity teaches everybody has free will, but except Judas. Judas didn't have free will. That doesn't seem fair. So I you know it's it's actually not a religious story. I mean, it is because but I wanted to make sure, and I I've got a preface in the book. I don't know if you got a chance to look at it yet, but um I wasn't challenging the Bible, I wasn't challenging God, I wasn't challenging challenging Jesus, I wasn't trying to make Judas out to be a good guy, but you know, who was he? How did he get to be the person that that Jesus was gonna rely on to do this? He had to have the right personality. I mean, Thomas wasn't gonna do it, Peter wasn't gonna do it, you know, none of the other apostles were equipped to be the person that was gonna handle this role. So, you know, why was he the way he was? What's his backstory? And if you no matter how much research I did, there is no backstory. There was no childhood, there was no why is Judas the person he is? Why does he have the mindset that allows him to do what he did? So I wanted to give him free will. And if he does what he's supposed to do, well, why does he do it? What does he, you know, what does he see? And anybody who actually has watched, you know, Jesus Christ Superstar, which really is a is a phenomenal broadcast, a great play. I've seen it in both forms. Um, but you actually see Judas struggling with his decision. He's not you know sitting there, oh, I'm gonna be the evil bad guy, and I gonna I'm gonna rule the world. He's struggling with what needs to be done because it's a horrible thing, but it's a necessary thing. But I I don't know that I would be any different if this was put upon me by God that this is what I need you to do, this is how I need you to serve me. I I still think I would struggle. Wait, I have to do what? Right, I don't want to do that.

Gary Wise 33:15

No, I agree. I think that's again, that's where I feel like either people don't talk about it or people don't think about it, but like I agree there had to be someone to play that role, and he was given that unfortunate job or that unfortunate inclination or that unfortunate all the reasons, all the reasons that he was given uh

Inventing Ideas Into Real Products

Gary Wise 33:40

the ideas to do the things that he did was according to the plan that had to be done, right? And again, uh the other thing I feel bad about Judas because I think the other place where he just I always question, did he not make it to heaven, right? Because he did he not make it because he did what he was supposed to do, right? And and I I guess I'm conflicted because I've seen people do things in haste or in under stress, right? Or when they're trying to force a situation, like they're trying to force an outcome, and they might initiate something that they didn't really truly think about, second, third, fourth order, or you'll get through a really tough time that unfortunately somebody else played a role in, and you'll be better for it. But there will be some conflicted emotions and feelings about things, but then you kind of like, but you know what? If that person had never done that thing, this would have never played out the way that it played out, and maybe it was supposed to go this way. And I feel like this is one of the most important. It is, it is the most important thing that ever happened to the world, right? Right, and Judas was picked just like the other apostle that denied Jesus three times in one night, right? Like he had to deny Jesus three times in one night, and that was a part Jesus said, You're gonna do it, and the guy was like, I'll never do that, but you did, and you did it three times in one night, right? And there was no getting out of that because it was part of again, it's gonna be used forever to show that Jesus was who he said he was, and he he he so he knew Judas was gonna play his role, and I don't think he I don't think he felt felt mad at him about that. I think it was you did your job, right? You did your thing. Um very interesting. I've all I've always thought about that. Uh, I do think the one place that if if I when I look at the Bible and I heard this story, I do think if Judas would have because they I the story says Judas took his own life at the end of his story, right? Um I think that if he just would have asked for forgiveness, he would have been forgiven in the way it all would have gone. But he he was just probably so embarrassed, so ashamed, so upset, so whatever that he chose to go ahead and end it. But I don't think that when he ended his life and got upstairs, God said, you know, you failed. I think it's gonna be you did what you needed to do, man. Thank you very much. You did your job, right? Right.

Steve Marks 36:17

Yeah, it's I I you know it's it's it's hard to try and rationalize and try to think like God because we can't. But if I'm gonna use anything that I'm learning from Christianity, um Jesus died for everyone's sins. So I mean, Judas is part of everyone. So I would hope that that that that you know that he um he got to rise and go to heaven. It would it would be kind of sad that Judas is instrumental in the saving of everyone else's soul, and he's gonna pay for it by because he did something that he was tasked to do, predestined to do. He really didn't have a choice. This is what was gonna happen. So, you know, I like to think that um you know we have we have a merciful God, and if you're doing you know what God's called you to do, and this is this becomes a dangerous area because there's a lot of people that do a lot of bad things and believe, well, God told me to do this. So you you kind of have to, but you can kind of look at the outcome, you know. If well, God told me to blow up a building with thousands of people in it. Well, for what reason? But this actually had a reason for it that was for everybody's benefit.

Gary Wise 37:29

So no, I agree. That's a good point, and yeah, people manipulate faith and they'll try to say, well, it's because you again, people have an agenda. Unfortunately, we've all seen this throughout our life, especially under stress. This is one of my favorite leadership conversations is to watch how people operate when they're under stress or when they're in fear, and to see will they operate in a way that's not according to their values or to their ethics, or to whatever it is. But this again, I guess this is where I give sympathy, empathy, empathy, right? I empathize with his position and having to be that person playing that role, right? But then I also empathize with lots of believers who should have struggled with their faith, who have struggled with seeing something play out the way they thought it should play out, and that will try to take things into their own hands and kind of make it a mess, right? But then, oh, by the way, this particular person and this particular set of events just had to freaking happen, man. It was okay. So then stepping off from that book, before we wrap up Judas Otherwise, and I love that title by the way, Judas Otherwise, right? I love the title. When I saw this come into my my my inbox, I was just like, oh my god, I've thought about this concept off like often, right? I'm currently watching the chosen series right now, and I'm watching how the actors portraying Judas, and I think he's doing a really good job of of portraying the conflict. I have never watched Jesus Christ Superstar, but I might need to, right? Because it sounds like that was of an inspirational uh piece of work for you, right? And that and and kind of going over the the Judas character, right?

Steve Marks 39:23

It's it's musical theater, so not everybody's into musicals, but it's it stood the test of time. And you know, it it it I don't know that it was so much inspirational, but it just more like validational. Um, you know, just seeing the struggle because you don't really see the struggle in the in the written word. Um, you don't have any backstory, you don't understand there's not a whole lot of explanation about his walk with with Jesus other than he gets to do this bad thing, but there had to be a reason why he was he was he was the way he was. So I like to you know look at themes like that, and because the Bible only gives us so much, and I'm not trying to rewrite the Bible, I wasn't there, but I'm pretty sure everybody you know looks at different stories, and you kind of wonder, well, how did they get to this point? And I actually had a follow-up book that's published now on Amazon as well called Eden Divided, and it's not it's not a sequel, it doesn't, they they're not tied together, but I also wondered, well, what would have happened? What if Eve had resisted the serpent and not eaten the apple? Because we there had to be the fall of man. So I actually have her not eat the apple, but then you know, evil is not so easily thwarted, and I took a longer journey to get to basically the same point. But you know, for for people that like to color things in, I mean, the the Bible is perfect, it does what it does, and that's you know, it's it it serves it serves its purpose, but it it's it sort of takes a shortcut through that story. It's just like, okay, here's Adam, here's Eve, they're in paradise, here's a serpent and an apple. Okay, and that's the now that you're kicked out of the garden. I just kind of wanted a picture, well, what would it have been like? Well, you know, what if what if they didn't? What would have happened then? Would it just have been, you know, these couple of people in paradise forever, and there would have been no humanity in order for all of us to be here. That fall had to happen too. So I wanted to give a little color to well, how might that have played out if the first, you know, if if Satan's first attempt at weakening man um didn't go as well as it would have. So it's it's a little bit of a a darker tale, more of a slow burn. There's you know a crack in the windshield, and then cracks do what cracks do, and all of a sudden, you know, they they spider out, and now you've got this giant mess from what was just a you know a tiny crack. So yeah, it's I just yeah, I I like to look at things and wonder, well, you know, I don't want to change it as far as the outcome, but I want to I I kind of want a more of a journey to get from point A to point B and actually feel what happened. Because to do something like that to you know to betray God and His Word, and He told you don't do this, to me, it has to be more than just you know one temptation and you're gone. Because that's not really not the way lives, or at least not the way my life works, but it takes more than just you know somebody going, Oh, what about this? Oh yeah, okay, it's it's usually a more of a slow burn getting from, you know, there has to be there has to be a reason why you have that weakness that that can be exploited. And it's but and I don't think the Bible's saying that it wasn't, but it's just sort of, you know, there wasn't there weren't any historians to record it. So it's like, okay, here's what happened, but there's no why, you know, why, you know, why all of a sudden, you know, you're living in a perfect, perfect world, why would you even, you know, why would you even want to mess with it? So yeah, it's that's that so that was the uh the the follow-up story.

Gary Wise 42:58

Well, uh but again, when I looked at that follow-on story, I again I agreed, right? I agreed with your logic, right? I agreed with I I don't want to call it common sense, but I would say the critical thinking aspect of it is she had to, somebody had to initiate that fall, right? Because unfortunately, uh for whatever that long-term plan was, we had to go through that fall and then work our way through this whole redemption arc to learn the things we need to learn to not really earn our way because we can't earn it, it's been given to us, but we've got to choose,

A Faith Journey That Evolves

Gary Wise 43:40

right, to do our very level best. And I think when God created us in his image, he knew that part of that was going to be a questioning attitude, wondering what about this thing. And again, he knew all of those things, right? He knew all those things. Uh and who knows uh the why behind it, but I agree. If it had never happened, then humanity or this whole world would not be what it is today, right? Oh, but but but then the one story I disagree that had to happen was I did not agree that Cain needed to kill Abel, right? Like that was just purely selfishness and unhappiness with what he thought he was getting in this world. And so those are two different stories for me, right? Like for me, somebody, Eve or Adam, pick your flavor. One of them was gonna have to take the bite out of that apple, right? For whatever the reasons again, Judas was gonna have to do, or somebody was gonna have to do what Judas did to initiate that whole process. It just so happened to be Judas, and it just so happened to be Eve based off of what was going on. That for me, I differentiate those two stories from a person that just does something evil and hurts somebody and that didn't really need to happen, right? For me, those are uh two different, those are different parallels, but I agree that those are those are really good examples of of stories that just the person had to to make that choice and live with the consequences, right? And live with the consequences in a very real way, and then you know, I wonder if when Eve passed on and she and she returned home, if she was essentially told, hey, good job, you did you know that was a part of your journey, and and and now it all has begun, right?

Steve Marks 45:33

Right. I mean, we can't again we can't think like God, but you're you're a teacher in whatever form. And realistically, which are you gonna remember more? Are you gonna remember the student who came into class, breezed through everything, never struggled, A plus everything, whether they tried or not, or the student who was failing, was gonna quit, got you you helped turn them around, and you got to see them get to the end with the real work and actually see something, the challenge in them, you know, which one makes you feel more like you did your job? You know, it's you you get a different film. You obviously you did your job both both ways, but uh when somebody actually needs you and you're able to give them something and help them, you know, be what they didn't think they could be, is you know, uh I I think a little bit more rewarding than, oh yeah, this is no problem. You know, I can I don't have to show up for class here. Here's my here's my A paper, here's everything came easy. Okay, great. It's an A student, and that you know makes you happy as a teacher. You have A students, but what about the F student who ends up with a C, or maybe they even get all the way to an A, but you know, hey, I made a difference, they got something from this, they got turned around, they appreciate what I gave them more than somebody who didn't even have to try to get it. Not there's anything wrong with being an A student, that's great too, right? But if everything comes easy, and that's it just that's like being in paradise for Adam and Eve. Everything was perfect, it never rained, or if it was maybe it was a light misty rain, and you know, the water was warm and abundant food, you never have to struggle. Oh, I'm hungry. Oh, there we go. I got you know, I got I got food, I don't have to work for anything. You know, who's going to more appreciate you know God than somebody who actually has to to work for it and has to struggle and has to and and keeps going and keeps moving? And even with Cain and Abel, I guess at some point in time they had to introduce you know, they had perfection and then they had to introduce the worst of sins. And you know, was there, you know, is there a way back for that person? And I think it sort of reaches out and says, you know, you you might be perfect your whole life or you might be the worst sinner possible, but you know, the prodigal son returns home and you know, there's a place for you here, you know, you did something wrong, but you know, you don't that doesn't have to be your end. Because if there is, if it's hopeless, then once you do something wrong, well, you might as well just keep doing wrong because you know you messed it up. There's no, you know, there's no salvation. So it it sort of becomes necessary to say it doesn't matter whether you're you know you're up here or you're down here at the bottom, there's a way, there's still a path to get to where you want to get to. And there's you know, it's just it's it it has to touch everybody no matter what, otherwise, you know, people are just gonna give up, and you don't want that. Or I wouldn't think God would want anybody, any of his children to give up.

Gary Wise 48:38

No, well said. Look, for me, I think that's why it speaks to me so much because of my own personal life journey. And I'm a big fan in the comeback story, right? I'm a I'm a big fan in in redemption and people being able to apologize and make restitution and being able to realize what they did was wrong or how it affected other people, and doing their best to make it as good as they possibly can, knowing you can't change some outcomes, right? And then at least finding your way to be at peace with it and find and finding that your hand to get back on that rod and to continue that moving forward thing, right? And yeah, no, I I think that's probably why the two stories resonate with me. And I'm sure it'll resonate with other with other people out there in the world as well, because we there's just no way we're the only people that have had that kind of thought process, right? Like, did this have to happen? Um, when you look at your genre of the books that you write, uh, you said they're not really religious per se, but you're writing them in the religious context or in the historical setting. But is it is it meant to be more like an adventure? Is it meant to be more like a critical thinking like thought process? How do you see it's like a mystery, the journey you're taking the people on? How how does that kind of play out for you as an author?

Steve Marks 49:58

Well, I'm I'm not trying to, like I said, I'm not trying to rewrite history, I'm not trying to change people's minds, I'm not trying to preach at them. Um, you know, I've got other stories. I've got one that just came out that's completely not um that base, it's more of a techno thriller, a medical kind of thing. But for these stories, it was I wanted to find stories that everybody knew, no matter what your religion is, everybody has heard of Adam and Eve, everybody's heard of Judas, and I just wanted to approach it from a different perspective of just looking in, maybe looking through their eyes a bit and seeing you know what they saw and why they were who they were. So it was more of a an exploration of why, you know, human nature, um, dealing with morality, dealing with consequences. But I didn't want to, you know, in in every story that I've written so far, you you don't really I'm not telling you how to see them. I don't, I try to stay away from I mean, gender is there, but I try to stay away from from race, from religion, not because those are bad things, but I I want but everybody can sort of see the same story because you know you've come from a different background than I did. We got sort of to the same place. And if you look at any religion around the world, aside from how they practice, or you know where you get into how they're gonna control or you know, tell their their believers this is what you have to do, but the two the core tenets of every religion that I know of is love one another, tell the truth, do the honorable thing. Now that gets kind of twisted when you get the people who are leading it and want to maybe control people and you know the God loves us best kind of thing. But everybody pretty much believes the same thing. How they practice it or how they go out into the world and and show themselves may be different. But if you actually boil it down to my religion believes this, it's almost the same thing universally, because that's human nature. So I don't want to color a world for people and say, okay, this person is this color, this person has this color hair. I try to um bring out the character through what they think, what they feel, and what they say. And if you want to picture, you know, if there's a female character, if you want to picture her as blonde or brunette or she's got dark skin or got light skin or whatever else, that's fine because everybody's gonna identify, but I don't want to be telling people, well, this is who they are, and then you're

Rewriting Judas Without Rewriting Scripture

Steve Marks 52:30

kind of stuck with that. And then if the person doesn't identify, oh, I, you know, I don't see her that way. Okay, well, so I want them to get the story and not, you know, what is the meaning to the story and not get tied up in all the things that could be offensive, not that I'm afraid to offend people, but there's no need. I'm trying, yeah, I'm a storyteller and I want people to see what it is that I, you know, that I had to say, why I had to say it, and not get lost in. And that's why the in the preface of the book, I make sure to tell people, right, before you read this, I'm not attacking anybody's religion, I'm not attacking the sanctity of God, the validity of Jesus, or anybody's teachings. It's not about that. Um, because I don't want, I don't want it, it's so easy in this world to offend everybody or anybody.

Gary Wise 53:17

Right.

Steve Marks 53:17

You you know, you can't you can't say anything without somebody feeling like, oh, I'm you know, I I need a safe room now. Um it's uh yeah, that I understand.

Gary Wise 53:28

And and look, I'm the I'm one of the guys in the arena, right? Like ultimately, as a person who chooses to be a leader or a person who chooses to take responsibility for other people, there's always going to be that space where somebody disagrees with you or thinks you're being selfish or doesn't understand your idea, and and it hurts when when you're not trying to offend and and and somebody they interpret it as offensive, right? And that's just life. And if you can't if you're a person who's always living a life of afraid to offend everybody, you're going to not take a lot of steps because you might unfortunately step on some toes in this life, right? And it just kind of it's like entering the dance floor. If you've ever been on a packed dance floor, you know you might bump into somebody, right? But if you're afraid to bump into people, you might never dance, right? And I'm not saying I'm looking to go dance every day now, but there was a time that my wife wanted to dance. I need to get out there on the dance floor and dance a little bit, right? I didn't want someone else to dance with her, right? I wanted to be the one dancing with her, and you gotta take that risk, you gotta get out there and go for it. You know, the other thing I was thinking about as we were talking is I was thinking about uh that book, The Da Vinci Code, right? Or that movie The Da Vinci Code when that first came out, and I remember look, I'm the guy, I'll go down the YouTube channel network of like Nephilim and ancient civilizations, I'll go into all that stuff because I I know that throughout my journey, I've learned there's almost always truth in things, right? Now, there's typically three sides to every story, you know, your side, their side, and the truth, right? But but I'm I'm pretty sure we don't know all the things about this earth, right? I'm just pretty sure, and so I'm the I like to have these critical thinking conversations because why not, right? Why not? What's what's there to fear? And I remember uh when I first got access to that Da Vinci code, the movie, and I was a young man, right? And as I was doing my the internet research or whatever it was, uh me and my dad had this deep conversation about it, right? I was like, but what if that was true? What if that I'll put up? And my dad said, Well, Gare, if uh if my faith was so easily shaken that a book or a story or something might change like be true, changes everything about my faith, and my faith maybe was not as strong as it needed to be. And I I agree, I agree having these critical things, these critical conversations, even possibly humanizing somebody or better organizing their struggle or their decision making or their their the reality that they could have been very much like us and was just trying to do their best they could, but also had to play a play a role or had to do a thing that they didn't fully understand, or was their God-given inspiration to do so, should not shake up my my personal faith. Matter of fact, it could for me, it might actually make it even more value-added because I can connect even more to that person, right? I can connect even more to that story. I know by the way, I choose to have faith, right? I don't have to have faith, it's a choice, right? It's a choice to have faith. It's a that's why I like that faith over fear concept, because sometimes I don't choose to be afraid, right? But I get to choose to have faith. And I think knowing I mean, I was a firefighter most of my career in the service, and I wake up every day knowing that I would be willing to put myself into an into an uncomfortable situation. I would do whatever I had to do to protect my students, I would do whatever I had to do to protect my family. I know that about myself. So knowing that I'm willing to go into a scary situation doesn't make me stupid, it doesn't make me any more braver than the average person. It's just that I'm choosing to have faith over that choice over that thing. But then there's always a risk you can be like that one guy and deny him three times because you thought you were gonna be able to perform. I've seen some tough guys fold under pressure because everybody thinks they can't they got what it takes until it really gets hot and the fire gets really close and it gets to be scary. So, man, hey, I really appreciate the conversation. I appreciate you taking the time to join us today on the show. Uh, I will make sure that I get the links for the books into the notes and of the podcast. And hopefully, everybody that's interested in the conversation that we had and just wants to read a cool story would check. I know your books are on Amazon, right? I saw that they were both located there. Is there anywhere else you would like to direct traffic to? Do you have like a website or something like that?

Steve Marks 58:22

Um, I've got my Facebook uh website page, but um, yeah, the Amazon page is is fine. And if um any of your listeners have Kindle Unlimited, it's actually free on Kindle Unlimited. So um, but they're not they're not real expensive. They just want to get the Kindle version, the paperbacks are out, the hardcovers out. But um yeah, I just I if if anybody reads it, if they have questions, um they can email me at uh what if novels at gmail.com. I'd love to engage with people that read and hear you know, hear their feedback. And I I'm really encouraged by the feedback that I've gotten so far. Um just yeah, from people like yourself that have you told me the same thing. Hey, I always thought about that. I so yeah, that's the thing, is if and I know it's not the noble thing to say. I actually got in a discussion on Facebook about this the other day because somebody was asking, you know, they they were saying that even if nobody read their work, would they continue to write because it's about the art? And you know, I to me that doesn't sound honest because I have the story in my head. I don't need to write it for myself. I you know, I I don't I I don't think I'm ever gonna reach you know Stephen King's status when I write a book. I wouldn't mind, but for me, it's uh I I tell the story because I want somebody to see it.

Books Links And Listener Feedback

Steve Marks 59:40

It's it would matter to me if nobody ever got to read it because what's the point of doing it? I don't need the book. I've already got it up here, but you know, I just want to engage people and give them something to you know where they can they can agree, they can disagree. I you know, hopefully I'm trying to write in a way that it's not about agreeing or disagreeing. You might like it, you might not, but I I don't want to, I don't, I don't feel the need to attack people's faith. I don't think the world needs to be rewritten. I just like to ask those questions and wonder what if.

Gary Wise 1:00:13

No, no, I loved it. I and I appreciated it because it let me know I wasn't the only one that thought those things. So thank you so much, Mr. Steve, for joining us today on the show. Oh, yeah, I appreciate you, man. If there's if any I I will put all the information in the show and in the notes so hopefully people can get access to your books, and I'm looking forward to making sure that I finish them both. Thank you very much, brother, for your time. I appreciate you.

Steve Marks 1:00:37

Thank you, thank you for having me.

Gary Wise 1:00:39

Yes, sir. Bye, everybody. Thank you for listening to the sounds of our voices. Hope you enjoyed the conversation. We'll talk to y'all later. Bye bye.