Don't Call it a Comeback: Food Insecurity and the Hidden Costs of College feat. Lenita Seals

What happens when you can't afford to eat in college?

Sam and La'Tonya speak with Lenita Seals, LT’s cousin and the unforgettable voice behind the “Basic Needs” chapter of Smart Girl. Lenita takes us back to Williamston, North Carolina, where class shaped everything and Black women were expected to stay small. 

Then the story turns to what too many first-generation college students still face: food insecurity, financial aid confusion, and the pressure to pretend you’re fine. Lenita explains how $20 was expected to last months, how hunger made studying impossible, and why pride kept her from telling family how bad it was. We connect that to today’s campus basic needs conversations, including how systems can fail students even when dining halls exist, and why student affairs leaders still underestimate hunger.

We also zoom out to culture and mythology, talking Remember the Titans, Coach Herman Boone, and what it means to hear from someone who knew him before the movie version took over. 

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Transcript

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Welcome Back And Season Focus

Sam 0:02

Hi friends, welcome to Smart Girls Season Two.

LT 0:09

Back like we never left.

Sam 0:11

Back like we never left is so true. And if we could remember Smart Girl about La'Tonya Rease Miles's amazing memoir, Smart Girl, her origin story about being first gen, college, uh and so much more. Um, and part of that story and part of our podcast for the whole first season is always was always about the cultural criticism because we are two English nerds, aren't we? We could have just named this two English nerds, but two English nerds is like now the side character of the show, which it was. Which the podcast, the book, it always has been. Um, and we're really digging into that this season, um, as well as still reflecting on the memoir, on first generation college experiences, um, and on all the kinds of cultural texts that surround that uh for individuals, for communities, etc. Um, so today we are going to hear Lenita's story, which is amazing. Readers across the country, possibly internationally. Possibly so. Possibly internationally, um, really responded to Lanita's story in the smart girl chapter Basic Needs. Um, Lenita readers might remember is your cousin, LT. And she started college 12 years before you began your higher ed career.

LT 1:58

Look at you putting math on it.

Sam 2:00

That's right. I'm trying. I think that's the math. I don't think so.

LT 2:05

I think it's I think it's a bigger gap.

Sam 2:07

I don't know. It's a bigger gap.

LT 2:09

It might be. You might be right. It might be.

Sam 2:11

Okay. We'll keep it going.

LT 2:12

You're probably right.

Sam 2:13

Um, LT, you start the chapter with an image of you in a t-shirt from Elizabeth City State University, which is our jumping off point for meeting Lenita and hearing her story of being the first to go, but not to finish college one generation before you and your family. Um, Lenita also has a connection that we'll explore to Coach Boone, the Denzel Washington character in Remember the Titans, which we're talking a lot about on the podcast this season, as well as sports, culture, and college in general. Um, as his family is from her small town in North Carolina before he moved up to Alexandria, Virginia, Williamston. Um today we're lucky enough to get to talk to Lamita uh and speak to her about her time in Elizabeth City State, uh, about her decision to leave, uh, and about the real life context that surrounds um Williamston and the Boone family before the move to Alexandria and to get into and contextualize that remember the Titans mythology that really exists uh because of and around the movie. But most importantly, we're gonna get to hear more about Linita's story that everyone was so uh captivated by and

Meeting Lenita And The Family Link

Sam 3:40

interested in. Um LT, introduce us to Lenita.

LT 3:43

Yeah, this is really critical. Um, so as you all may remember, when I set out to write the book Smart Girl, I set out to tell the story of how my family uh of how I got to college as a first generation student. So I had to think of what were these important moments in my life that helped me get there? Like what were people saying about college? Well, ironically, people weren't saying a lot about college because people hadn't been to college, but I did know that my big cousin Lanita had been to college. Um that um that Lanita, in fact, so I gotta say it a little bit more because I'm just really gonna embarrass her. Um so you know, being a bit older than me, Lanita was like, you know, who the person I aspired to be. So um I I was in Alexandria and there were times we would go down to the family reunion in Williamston, and Lanita would come down and stay in the holiday inn, Sam. She didn't stay at the house, she stayed at the holiday inn. And it was like big time, big time. I was like, oh shoot, I'm gonna go stay with Neat at the Holiday Inn. She knows what I'm gonna say. Right across from where the Wonder Bread Factory used to be. Anyhow, um, so yes, in that chapter, Basic Needs, um, I I opened with this t-shirt because it was really important, even though um now I kind of know why Lenita didn't really talk to me about college, but I just knew that was like such an important symbol to me that let me know that I could go to college. But what I and then I reached out to me pretty early on in writing the book to ask her about her experience. And that's actually when I learned that Lenita had attended but did not complete school. That was my first time I learned that, and it really just opened my eyes, kind of set the tone for the book about wow, when I listened to Lenita tell me her story, um it was some things that I also experienced. It's really sad. Would you say 12, 13 years apart? We were going through something very similar. Anyhow, that was a really hell of a long introduction. Neat, welcome to the Smart Girl Podcast.

Lenita 6:01

Thank you so much, cuz. So excited to have you here today. Thank you.

Sam 6:09

Thank you so much for being here. Um, can't wait to have this conversation. Um, so as we were telling you before we jumped on uh the recorded portion, um, this season of the podcast, we're really uh digging into culture and sports, and we're really digging into the myths of TC Williams and Remember the Titans to tell our fuller and more complex story of the time period geography and culture of that story, including how school and college and community fits in. Um, your story and Williamston's story is a large part of that big picture and a big part of Smart Girl. Um, in the chapter Um Basic Needs, LT talks about how um Coach Boone's family, Denzel's character of the movie, comes from your hometown community uh before he moves up to Alexandria. Um, and she uh talks about how you classify how there are four kinds of people economically in Williton. Black people. Okay, four kinds of black people. That's right, four kinds of black people. Sorry. Umically in Williamston, uh, which I would love for you to talk more about. Um, can you tell us more about your hometown and how Williamston shaped your ideas about college, about your decision to go to Elizabeth City State? Um, and then LT, on the flip side, do you see connections or reflections from from Alexandria sort of taking us back to that moment of wearing

Williamston Class And Gender Rules

Sam 7:50

that shirt, even if you didn't quite know the story yet?

Lenita 7:55

Hmm. Well, for me in Williamston, uh, which I loved because didn't know any better at the time. Uh, like I said, uh in the book, there were four kinds of black people in Williamston: those who were bad off, those who were really bad off, those who weren't as bad off, and those who were had a little something. And we were not as bad off, but we didn't know it. We were poor and didn't know it, you know. And um, but what we did know was that the culture was different for the black people opposed to the white people, and what made our family not be as bad off is that my mom, uh Nettie, was um the mayor's maid. And so therefore, it made it a lot easier for us to deal with the issues in Williamston, which were many. Um staying in Williamston for me was definitely not a good idea. Um, most of the people there had made jobs, um they were doing some kind of menial labor uh washing dishes. Being a waitress was a good job at that time. Never was my idea fun at all. And then um many of the women um who grew up there and who are still there just bare children, um sat at home, cooked clean, and had a bunch of babies. And that was never my idea. Um that was the culture in Williamston. That was it. Um the men had a better opportunity to leave if they were athletic, and that's where Mr. Boone came in at, especially when I was in school. Um, I was like really uh there was two sets of um school at school, there was uh one to eight grades, and then there was a ninth to twelfth grade. When Mr. Boone was there, he would talk to the guys about going to school, but never the women, because we weren't interacting with him in that fashion. Women just weren't never thought of to go to school. Very few women did that. And so um I loved the idea of my next door neighbor being a teacher, which was what Mr. Boone was, and would come over to their house to visit, and that's how I got to meet um his daughter Sharon, along with one of my other friends who was living next door, Zelene. We would all play with paper dolls, and therefore you would hear the grown people talk, but you could never say anything. We were seen and not heard back then, and that was truly the way it was back then. So you would hear the the older people talk, and I love the idea of um Mrs. Bunch having her sorority colors, and I thought it was so cool, it was just amazing. I I just thought it was the greatest thing ever. Um, and I think that was one of the reasons why I wanted to go to school so that I could pledge. But the bigger thing was um my cousin, which is LT's mother, said, You don't want to stay here. And whenever she would come home, it always looked so much better on the other side. Um Williamston was very slow and we there was no progress for black women, especially. And it was just really sad. And I didn't want to be a maid or a waitress or some lady running around with a bunch of kids and a husband that I had to wait on 24-7. Not my idea. So that's pretty much why I decided that I wanted to go to college. Um, so that possibly I could pledge, possibly I could do better as far as um making my life better. And I just thought that little town outgrew me. Or I grew outgrew it. Yes, that's pretty much where that was. Oh my goodness, this is just the first question. Yeah, it's that's how it was there, and it's still to some degree now because it has not grown that much.

LT 12:25

Right. Um wow, the the thing that's coming up for me, Sam, like like Lenita, as you were talking about how these these conversations really were with the boys, but what it meant to have almost like a sisterhood within our family. Like you, I know you looked up to my mom, Gloria, Peanuts. I looked up to you, your oldest daughter, Shabrika, looked up to me. Like that, like that has continued. Like we just kept pulling each other along and kind of like showing each other another way, right? And we can keep going throughout our family. I could just keep seeing that happen over and over again. Even if we didn't, even if we didn't know like the full story, just like knowing, like I said, literally just knowing that you went was important to me. Um, and then Sam, even though I didn't even, I literally did not know where Elizabeth City was. I knew my cousin went. I'm pretty sure I knew it was a black school. I'm pretty as we called it. We didn't call it HBCU, called them black school.

Lenita 13:34

But back then they called it a black school.

LT 13:36

Black school. I knew it was a black school. Um actually to me that was more important than that. That was even um another thing that that um increased my pride was knowing that as well, too. And I I I wish I had it. If there was a a Latanya Reese Miles museum, that that shirt would be in it. I think I don't even think Lenita remembers it, but it was this gray shirt. I don't think it was sleeveless, I think it was just like a little T little short sleeve um shirt. And I was just so proud of wearing it, you know. Um, just like I said at the beginning, just knowing that my big cousin went was oh, here's the thing. It was enough to encourage

How A T-Shirt Becomes A Map

LT 14:20

me. It was not enough to get me through. And that's a whole other conversation, which I'm sure we'll get into.

Sam 14:26

Yeah. And also just like amazing to think about. First of all, I love hearing how um Glow Reese came and spread her magic everywhere and was like, we we should talk, right? We could we can make other things happen in life, which is which is so much true about LT's mom. Um, but then also just like I love this idea of the kinds of things that we see or wear it like the sorority colors and being like, oh, she's a pledge. I want to, I want to do that, and that's my connection. So that even if it's a job now that we don't necessarily think about teachers as being well off, right? Or better off. Um, that you can see that in certain contexts, and certainly for black folks in Williamston, that was the case, right? And it became a thing that you could like look at and helped you imagine like what college was, right? Lt and I have been talking about people who imagine what college is through like watching Legally Blonde, even though that's about law school, right? Um, but just all the different ways we imagine it. So I could just see LT's like Elizabeth City State shirt. I could see the block letters, it would come in, I could see the whole thing. And I want, I do, I want it to be, I want it to be on your archive, right? Um, how you do that?

LT 16:06

Find it in goodwill, somebody who got it from Goodwill, please send it to me.

Sam 16:10

Or at least try to find a picture with you wearing it, try something, but just that wouldn't have got it.

LT 16:16

It would have probably been from like the 70s, right? Yeah, it would have been from the 70s.

Lenita 16:20

I went to school at um Elizabeth City State University in um August 1975.

LT 16:27

Wow.

Lenita 16:28

All right, straight out of high school, went straight into uh Elizabeth City, and it was the best thing since ice cream and cake for me. It was great.

Sam 16:40

Oh my gosh, wait, hold on, real quick.

LT 16:43

No, go. Yeah. Especially, especially given like how how fond you were of it. Why did and I know you don't remember exactly, but why would you let your little cousin have your shirt? Because you know what?

Lenita 16:55

Um I no, because you were the you were you were the baby. You were everybody's love. You know, you gotta remember you were the first little girl that was uh really around me as far as like being in Alexandria, you know, and with Peanut being so close to me, naturally I would be close to you because you gotta remember I'm older than you. Um, I would watch you like if I came to Alexandria and Peanut had to go some do something downstairs, I'm watching you. So yeah, you were like the first. Yeah, I see. And so therefore, naturally I was closer to you because if you remember when you were in school um in DC, you would come over to my house, wash your clothes, and we would have dinner, you know, you know, with my kids. So you were that one, you know, and your mom saved me from being in Williamston, you know, so it was like naturally I would be closer to you.

LT 17:57

Wow, okay, yeah. Thank you, thank you, cuz.

Sam 18:01

This is beautiful. Uh also really like thinking, not liked, but um super appreciated your contextualizing what this sort of um race and gendered expectations were or limits seemed to be in Boone in the, or sorry, in Williamston in the 70s, right? Um, and sort of thinking about how coming up through that um made the vision of elsewhere when you could catch glimpses of it uh uh powerful.

Food Insecurity At Elizabeth City

Sam 18:34

Um so LT uh really movingly tells the story of food insecurity during your time at Elizabeth City State. And I I think that is what really gripped readers. And you know now there are there are um thanks to things like first to go and other kinds of visibility kind of programs, schools often have food and other things for folks who are facing that now. Yes, now, but only very recently, as we know. Um, how do you see that time now? Um, did you or have you talked about your experience at college or leaving college with your family besides LT or hometown, um, Williamston friends since then? Um or did you talk about it when you went back to undergrad or to get your master's uh in social work as you have, right? Like how do you think about that time?

Lenita 19:39

Well, how I think about it is that I don't want to relive it because it was terrible. Um when I was in school then, the money situation was extremely hard. Um, my mom would give me $20 and expect it to last for three months, and that is not realistic, even back then. Um, we did whatever we could as far as like if one of my girlfriends who went to school with me, uh Gwen or her sister or my girlfriend Vanessa, if one of us got money from family, we would share, but it was four of us. And how far can $20 go? And we didn't really have oodles or noodles back then. Ramen noodles, we really didn't have that. So if we got an uh opportunity to go to McDonald's, that was like filet mignon to us, and we made it last for as long as we possibly could because even getting a ride to McDonald's from campus was a hard thing. Um, can you imagine knowing that you have an exam the next day, trying to study for that exam, and your stomach is rumbling more than your brain is rumbling because you can't think well at all, at all. Um and if your class started before you could get to breakfast in the morning, you know that you were gonna go in that in there and take that exam on an empty stomach. And that was really hard for us. Um mama did as much as she possibly could to help, but she was making $35 a week at that time, and she was maintaining six people on that $35. And if my uncle was working um during the summer, he would help. And that's how probably how I got the $20. But outside of that, that was it. And as far as Pell Grant, like nowadays, people get pail grant and they get money back. We never got any money back. Now that I'm familiar with, they never called me to finance and say, uh, we need to say they never told you, they never called me, and if they They were calling me to tell me that I owed something, and I was shaking in my boots because I know my mom couldn't take care of that, you know. So we were struggling. We would take food out of the cafeteria, try to make it last. If it was uh and we weren't getting fruit like kids are getting now, we weren't getting that. We might get a boiled egg, and then you were limited because their resources were limited too. You know, it was a black college, and a small black college, too.

LT 22:32

That's what people don't realize. They think of Howard and Spelman, right?

Lenita 22:36

Highly Elizabeth City's a small school, very small, very small. And you were lucky, I was lucky to be able to get there because it was only a short period away from the house. I think it would be about an hour from Williamston. Uh luckily, I had someone who had excuse me, graduated with me, and he was also going to Elizabeth City, so I had a ride, so it just worked out for me. But as far as food and trying to maintain your grades and learning what you were supposed to learn, that whole thing, especially by the time I started in my junior year, it was just too much. And then when I attempted to pledge, the the only thing they really wanted to give you was an onion that was supposed to have been the food of pleasure at that time. Um it was just horrible. There's no way you could keep your grades up. Um, naturally, when I first went to school, I thought it was free time because mama wasn't there to say, come on in. So I just enjoyed myself that first semester. Then I realized back then they would send your grades home. So when mama saw my grades during the summer, I was like, oh my God. So I had to go to summer school. So I had to rearrange everything to uh try to keep up. I did pretty good the first and second, that freshman year I did okay. The second year, it started to get bad. But when I started my first semester in junior, it was just horrible. I could there was no way I could keep up. There's no way. Um normally at that time I was about 105 pounds. Um, I think by the time I left school, I was about 95. You know, and um and it and and and mom, you say, you are not eating. And I was saying, you know, they have the cafeteria, mom, but it it's only open at a certain amount of time. And I didn't have the money, and I didn't want to make her feel bad. So I was saying I was just studying, you know. Um it it was horrible. Um that's why when I sent my kids to school, especially my oldest Shabrika, we had her in an apartment. I would come and buy her groceries, I would make sure she had money. We had the opportunity to put money in a bank and put it shared banking. She could come and get a little debit card, and I would say, you know what, mom, I need money, I could put it in um to make sure, you know, her stepdad, I mean, he would make sure that he would, you know, we would pay the rent. Um we would drive down, her sister would come and make sure that she was straight. It it was so different, but I remember feeling like oh my god, my stomach is hurting. I, you know, I think I got sick one time and I had to go to the infirmary because I was hungry, you know. And one of the nurses there, she said, honey, I'm gonna give you some money so you can get some food. You really need to eat. So she gave me uh crackers. You remember back in the day that what we used to call nabs, she gave me that to eat. It was like the best thing because I was hungry. I really was, and you didn't you didn't reach out to everybody to ask for money because um that was not the way we were raised. Now, if I could have gotten to maybe peanut or even maybe uh, and there was very few family members that I was that close to, you know, that I would really tell what was going on. But you're in school, and the only thing you can hear when you go home is how proud your, you know, my mama is, and Neet's in school and she's doing good.

LT 26:39

Smart girl, she's a smart girl.

Lenita 26:41

Yeah, she there you go. You know, she's always been smart, and you know, she's I knew she was gonna go somewhere, and I'm starving to death, and it is really sad because not only was I starving, but my other three classmates were too, and it just got thin, especially with family members having different dynamics going. Someone passed. Um, I had a family, a friend where her her older sister was like her mom, and she died, Bert died, and then we didn't have Bert to bring stuff to us because she was gone, so we were struggling. We were just struggling. I mean, I haven't felt like that in forever, and sharing it with La'Tonya just really brought things back, you know, in perspective. But when Shabrika went away to school, we made sure she didn't want for anything that she had no reason why she couldn't study. And I think that was one of the reasons why she always was getting scholarships because she was we had her, yeah, she was in her own apartment, we were buying food, I was sending putting money in her account. She was she was completely straight, completely. Um she was fine, but at when I was in school, it was not like that. We didn't have the resources. Um, you couldn't go to a teacher and say, the reason why I'm not doing as well as I did before I'm hungry. You couldn't do that because you you were looked upon as you didn't want to look like uh those poor people. Yeah, and every and no matter where you go, and even in school back then, you had the ones that came from a better family and a better family or the poor family, and you never wanted to look like that. You know, and it it was just really hard. I mean, it was hard, and when I call myself attempting the pledge, it was worse with that because not only were you not eating, you weren't sleeping, and you was running all over the campus and in the graveyards, it it was just terrible. So I just couldn't take it anymore. It was just too much.

LT 28:58

Yeah. So this is the reason why literally after people finished that chapter, um, Sam, people would message me on Instagram or what have you in tears. Um, because we're talking about all the we didn't even talk about class, just all the external things that impact your ability to even think. Um, and Lenita, I remember there was that moment. So those of you who read it, you'll hear that I'm I pretty much just wrote what Lenita said to me because you had that moment where you said how you had you had been hungry, but not like that. Right? And that was just so powerful. I had to put it exactly the way you said it.

Lenita 29:47

I had never been hungry until I went away to school. Because you know, at home, we were fed, even though we were poor, we never missed a meal. We always had family to take care of that, never missed a meal, but in college, I had never felt like that before in my life. And I just couldn't, I couldn't study, I couldn't stay focused, I was losing weight. Um, and I honestly think that at some point my hair was coming up because you know, you had to do your own hair, you had to do everything, and I just felt like I I just can't do this anymore. I really can't, I can't do this anymore.

Sam 30:26

Yeah, and to feel all that pressure, both to not let your family know, because they have all of this pride about you getting out and moving on up and doing all this other stuff, and then also to feel like you can't show it to your fellow students because you're trying to pledge, you're trying to not be in that category, right? Of the four categories of people, you always uh you know trying to pretend to be that, and like the the stress of that, and of no one really not being able to tell anyone that this is what's happening.

Lenita 31:09

I didn't

Pride Silence And The Hidden Struggle

Lenita 31:10

know if anyone would care, you know, because that was " the norm." Because I was the only one that was hungry, you know. Um, it it it this is nowadays is a completely different scenario, completely somewhat.

Sam 31:27

Somewhat. I was gonna say, well, for your kids, yeah, because you have that experience, you knew

Lenita 31:33

Because I knew that they didn't have to go through that because it's stuck in my head. That's why Shabrika and Nikki never had to go through that because I remember what happened to me, and I was not gonna let that happen to them. That's right, that's right.

Sam 31:50

But you know, that's for so many folks. Um, if their parents don't really know what's going on at college, like you said, it's the $20 and you don't really know and you don't want to burden them. And then I think a lot of the pretending to like class passing, right? Basically code switching around class, as I mean, LT knows even better than I do. Um students do it all the time. Uh, and sometimes it's even just about working schedules. So it might be that your friends that don't have to work, they have a totally different life than you, right? Uh in terms of what they can access, scholarships, you know, um internships over the summer, all of this other stuff that I think I think there's probably still a fair amount of pretending like you're not worried about that stuff when inside you're like, I gotta get to the shift. I can't go to that. But but LT, I'm sure you've seen it.

LT 32:48

Well, it's so funny. I was dean of student affairs at a um at a private school up here in the Bay Area, a school that was also small but had a lot of student athletes. And I knew those students were hungry. And I went to the president and talked to them about having a a pantry. And he said, What? What the students can't be hungry. There's a dining hall right here. This wasn't that long, this was like three years ago. And you know, just uncovering how one one of the things that happened was the COVID test, this was during COVID, COVID testing time was the same hours as the dining hall time, and you had to get COVID tested, right? So students are having to make a choice between eating and getting COVID tested, but you have to get COVID tested, there's really no choice. Well, one and Sam, I know we're about to get into it, but I also do want to talk more about time. Like you said, you've done the math, we figured out it was like only 13 years between Lenita and I in school. And we're and even when you were talking about um the roles of women versus men in um Williamston, it's not that long ago. We're not talking about the 50s. It wasn't even up. We're talking about the 70s, y'all. Which which is one of the things we're going to focus on this this season as well, too. Mm-hmm.

Sam 34:14

And it's just so much also about geography, right? And thinking about where you're at and what's visible and what you could see as options, right, uh around you, which we also, I think, see repeatedly, which is why so many of our questions are about like what taught you right about college, right? What taught you um, you know, what did you see, what did you hear that made made you go? And and sports are obviously a huge part of that for LT, right? Around basketball teams, uh, and uh you talking about um the bunches next door and the the sorority um colors, right? It's just so um fascinating, right? To think about how it is we learn about college and and what we strive for in ways that now we would be like, you know, maybe not one of us saying, oh, I picked colleges and knew about colleges based on basketball teams, even though we know that that's how many of us know, right? Even though we know that it's because our friend's mom went to ex-college and she seemed to have nice clothes and good colors and friends, that that's why we went, right? Um, I said now it's like there's a lazy river at that college, and that's why I would like to go. But I think that's the future for my children at least. So um thank you so much for talking about that and and and reliving even part of that, because it that is intense. Um and uh I'm I'm curious as a small follow-up before we do the next question about cultural text. What did it feel like

Returning To College With Stability

Sam 35:55

when you went back? You went to, you told me uh Virginia Union, was it? Oh yeah.

LT 36:01

Yeah, yeah. So you did go on.

Sam 36:04

Like, so then you knew then you were your own first gen, right? Like you knew. What did it feel like when you went back? What did what did you know? What did you bring with you?

Lenita 36:14

Virginia Union was very easy by this time. Um, I'm much older, um, in the military. I didn't have to worry about bills because Uncle Sam was taking care of it all. Uh, all I had to do is stay in, uh, stay focused, and do the work. Uh, never had to worry about eating because that wasn't a problem because I come home and eat. Uh I drove to class, I went to class, did what I needed to do, came back home, did my work. It was over, it was done. It was just easy. It was almost like an easy breeze. And guess what? I even got uh financial aid actually called me during those times. I got calls from them. What'd they say? What they want? Yeah, come pick up your check. That's what financial aid said. Never when I really needed back in 1975 or 76, 77, none of that time. But they would call me and say, come uh, Miss Seals, come pick up your check. Come check up your check. Ah, that's making me think about sorry, yeah. And I um did extremely well. I graduated Magna Cum Laude at um Virginia Union. I did really well. Um, I had great teachers, great people that I was going to class with, uh, learned a lot, and really stayed focused on what I wanted to do in the community. I wanted to do a lot of community work um with the um church and with um people in the community. I got with a company so that I could work with kids and people who have substance abuse issues, and it was great. Totally night and day. You got to self-actualize, you got to do what you wanted to do, play into your strengths. Yep. I enjoyed being at Virginia Union, and it was uh HBCU black school, a black school, there you go. It was great, I enjoyed it.

LT 38:16

I'm sending-- Virginia Union, I'm sending this to you, I'm sending this to Elizabeth City, too, by the way. Yeah, do better.

Lenita 38:23

Virginia Union University was great for me. Great teachers, um, excluding one, but I got past her. I got past her, but I had great teachers. Um, my classmates, we helped each other. It was great, completely like night and day from Elizabeth City to Virginia Union. Absolutely, totally, totally different.

LT 38:47

That's such a great question, Sam.

Sam 38:49

Uh I'm just it's making me think about your experience at Howard with Bell's, like um speaking of similar experiences, but across different times, and then hounding you and not allowing you to continue because you couldn't.

LT 39:05

And then I go to the University of Maryland, all of a sudden I get a refund check. I was like, What?? Qu'est que c'est? What is this?? What is this refund check you speak of?

Lenita 39:18

Isn't it beautiful when finance call you? Right?

LT 39:23

Exactly. Yeah.

Sam 39:24

But but but like world-changing differences. Um, and just thank you for talking about that. And also just I don't, you're just so fucking amazing. I'm just like, and then you went back to school and you got your master's and you knew what you wanted, and you found a way, and we could do a whole thing about how um, and I I know La'Tonya talks a little bit about ROTC on campus and other things like that uh in her book, right? But thinking about how um the military becomes a pathway. Um you know that in your own life too, LT in your home, right? The military becomes a pathway. Or an imagined exactly to college and to solving some insecurity, financial insecurity issues that that one can't. So thank you. Um, so then question.

Music Memory And The Band War

Sam 40:20

And we could bring it to Virginia Union too, but I want to ask about Elizabeth City a little bit more in that first those first um, the first year and a half, two years uh when you started college. What cultural texts do you associate with your time at Elizabeth City? Is there a song or songs for you that are the soundtrack to that era or to leaving? And I asked this, right? I want to know what you were listening to. And part of this is like, we're we had this great conversation that will err with a cheerleader from Alexandria in in 71, where she says about remember the Titans, they got the soundtrack all wrong, effectively, right? Like it's it's off, and you could tell that just from the years, right? It's off. And I'm just it's such a big part, like the basketball teams, like the sorority colors, right, that you're seeing in your life. What is it that you associate with that time? It doesn't have to be a song, but I'm thinking maybe you want it to be a song.

Lenita 41:29

Well, as far as songs at Elizabeth City State University, honestly.

Sam 41:38

What went with that onion? That's what we want to know. What is the soundtrack to the onion?

Lenita 41:44

War. War. The soundtrack for war. The the group or yeah, yeah, war. Oh, was there a particular song? Um um the lowrider song. Oh, yeah. Me and my girls, we used to always go to the little dances on campus because we always knew there would be a little something there, but we danced our butts off, and I but the one that really resonates with me is war because I felt like I was in war, but I listened to war, and that's what I listened to. That was wow, that was my thing. War. I loved war at that time, yeah. That was it. And there's this um, it was Low Rider and um God, I can't think of that song, but that whole album, War was the best thing. Yeah, that was it. That was it. I felt like starving to death. Yep, War.

LT 42:56

"Why Can't We Be Friends?"

Lenita 42:58

Yeah.

LT 42:58

That was out around that time. That's wow.

Lenita 43:01

Yeah, yeah. That whole album was good. That was the one album, and it's still on my playlist. And sometimes when I'm kind of down, I'll I'll play it because it can take me back, and you know, you have to learn to be grateful for what you have. I can remember be struggling in school, and War was playing.

LT 43:24

The opening song on that album is "Don't Let Nobody Get You Down," the slow one.

Lenita 43:33

That whole album was my that that was my inspiration, and it would, you know, and I felt like I was in a war. That's the soundtrack to that. Yeah, it was hard. It really was. It was very hard. That's why I didn't want my girls to go through that. Yeah.

Speaker 44:00

Yeah.

LT 44:01

And this is why I know I know we got one more song, but this is why some people don't even want their kids to go to college because they get harmed in college. That was one of the reasons why I set up the chapter the way that I did. Like I wanted . . . You talk so much about the community and the food that you all made and canned. I wanted people to see what that was like for you before you went to school. And that's true for so many folks. The harm comes at the institution. And our families send us off telling us that's the this is what we're supposed to do. That's the way to go. And oftentimes, just like you said, we don't we don't say how we're actually doing. I didn't do that to my mom. I didn't want it was the same story all over again. Literally have five dollars.

Lenita 44:54

Well, at least you had five. I had none.

LT 44:57

Well, it was 10 years difference, so inflation. It got me the same, it got me just as far as you did, which is no where.

Sam 45:06

Well, and it's such a high cost, too, for us folks who either have trouble with or have kids who have trouble with time management, which every kid does when they show up at school and suddenly you're independent, as you were talking about, right? That that that if you don't have finances to back up those things, you either you have to make these decisions that are not decisions 18-year-olds are gonna be able or should have to make when back home, there is a whole community to help feed you, have those things that you need around you, right? You don't have to worry about if I choose to do this, I can't do this, right? Um, and there's so much more cost. That's um, yeah, that's thank you for that answer and for discussing that.

Coach Boone Beyond Movie Myth

Sam 45:57

So um, last question. Uh we mentioned Remember the Titans, and we absolutely want to know what you think about that film if you feel like giving us your thoughts. But our new closing question for this season is do you have a favorite sports movie or TV show that you want to share with us and why? No, no, not your jam.

Lenita 46:26

No, not my not really. Any thoughts. As far as the Titans is concerned, Remember the Titans. Remembering Mr. Boone, I think Denzel Washington did him very well because I actually knew Mr. Boone. He was a strong-willed individual, and he the way he went about going through life when he was in Williamston, you had to push boundaries to get anywhere. And Mr. Boone was one of those kind of people who was gonna do just that. He was opening doors, he was a pioneer, and we didn't realize it at that time. Um, I think Denzel Washington did a very good job from what I remember of Mr. Boone. Mr. Boone would not take any mess. He was gonna take care of, he was gonna be extremely fair, he was gonna make sure that if you were doing your best, he was gonna have your back. And he wanted his players to do well. Um, we had one person there at school, and I think he even went to uh he works at TC with Ali Khan Johnson. Yeah, that man that man was the bomb. That was he was the talk of the town in Williamston during the time when Mr. Boone was there. And Mr. Boone also went to Elizabeth City State University too, and also Ali Khan did too.

LT 48:05

Oh my God!

Lenita 48:06

Yes, they did because Ali Khan followed Mr. Boone, and Mr. Boone was like on him, you know. That man was truly a pioneer, and he wanted his people to do better. Now, granted, he didn't have a whole lot to do with the females from my perspective, but he felt the way I look at it, he felt like if he could get the men to be men and prosper, their women would also do the same thing because he could touch the men. Uh, the women, probably not, because we were so we were pigeonholed into just being wives and uh being maids and waitresses and mothers. That was it. The men had to be able to maintain, and maybe they could he could bust them out by being able to do well and um uh being an athlete, so that's what he was doing, and that's what he always did. I think Denzel did a really great job of playing Mr. Boone, and uh, even up until the time when he went to T C Williams and I saw him, he remembered me. He's like, You the little girl next door to the bunches, and I was like, Yes, sir, I am. Coach Boone said that, yeah. He's like, You the little girl next door, because I still I told you Zelina and I used to play, and his daughter, Sharon, used to play. And uh I saw him maybe 10 years ago, maybe, and he still remembered me. But I still watch Remember the Titans because of Mr. Boone and the way he played him. So, yeah, if you want to say, Do I have a particular uh sports movie? That would be it for me. Because I can identify with it. I really can. Because he he he wasn't gonna make it in Williamston, they weren't gonna let him, and that's why he had to leave Williamston. He wasn't. If he stayed in Williamston, he would have probably been he would have been so unhappy. He would have he was too big for Williamston, he really was so that's why he had to leave.

Gratitude Family And Closing

LT 50:15

So good.

Sam 50:17

I know what else can we say? Lenita, thank you for talking to us for being so open and honest and trenchant and hilarious, um, all at the same time. Um I can't believe all that we got from this, except that you're remarkable. And of course, this is what we got. Like, like LT transcribing your thoughts about Williamston, like it's just phenomenal. Uh LT.

LT 50:52

Thank you again, cuz, big cuz, for always, you know, leading away from me and inspiring me. Give give my best to all all the family.

Lenita 51:01

I will, and thank you both so very much. It was a pleasure. All right, thank you.

LT 51:06

It's a joy.