Breaking Rules And Leading The Band In Alexandria feat. Thea James

Part 2 of the Virginia Humanities series about Alexandria, Virginia.  

LT and Sam talk with Dr. Thea James about growing up in Alexandria and learning to lead by questioning rules, from winning a drum major audition to building a career in emergency medicine. Her stories connect school integration, identity, and ambition to a simple belief that access and listening can change a person’s whole trajectory.

Dr. James was the first Black and the first female drum major at George Washington High School, one of the rivals of TC Williams HS in the late 1960s/early 70s.   A first-generation college graduate and transfer student, she would go on to study medicine at Georgetown Medical School.  Currently, she is VP of Mission and Associate Chief Medical Officer at Boston Medical Center. 

• Sports media recommendation: the Jackie Robinson story

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Welcome And Season Theme

Sam 0:03

Hello, welcome to the Smart Girl Podcast. This is your co-host, Sam Pinto. Professor. I don't know what else, extraordinaire. I want to say like culture, vulture extraordinaire. I know, it's so cheesy. It's terrible. We are on season two. We are talking about not just but also including LT's memoir, part of which is about growing up in Alexandria and in the DC Northern Virginia area. Uh and that this season is about sports and partially the experience LT had at TC Williams, no longer known as, as a cheerleader. And we're trying to really fill out the story of what it's like to be a smart girl in high school, doing not just as we might call it smart girl shit, right? But doing all the things, including cheerleading, including as we're gonna talk to the amazing Dr. James today, being a drum major. Wanna talk about that experience? Wanna talk about Alexandria. Uh And as always, we're always talking about first gen, career path stuff, all of the good things. LT, tell us more about our amazing guest today.

LT 1:38

Thanks, Sam. I am La'Tonya Rease Miles or LT to some. And not only do we want to talk about smart girls, we want to talk about smart black girls in particular and what that experience is like and what's unique. And super honored today to welcome Dr. Thea James, my fellow Alexandrian.

Meet Dr. Thea James

LT 2:00

Thank you so much, Dr. James, for being here today. Can you tell us just before we jump in, can you tell us a little bit about your current work? Ma'am, what are you doing when you're not hanging out with us?

Thea James 2:12

Well, when um I'm not hanging out with you, I am uh I'm an emergency medicine doctor by training. And I am vice president of mission, associate chief medical officer here at um Boston Medical Center. And um I am also co-founder of our Health Equity Accelerator, but that's what I'm uh mostly doing. Um, and um it's a very unique hospital, incredibly unique because of its focus and you know, it does some very different kinds of -- has different approaches and things like that to foster the most innovative and creative components to just be able to enable our patients to thrive. And if I were to get into it, I'm not gonna I don't I don't want to get into it at this point just because you know, unless you ask me, but I don't know-- Do you remember DC General Hospital?

LT 3:12

Vaguely.

Thea James 3:14

What is your memory of it?

LT 3:14

I just know that it existed. I never went to DC General.

Thea James 3:22

Okay, so we can get into that at another time, but keep going.

LT 3:26

Okay, okay. Well, I just wanted to say Boston is one of my favorite cities, so next time I'm in the area, I'm gonna look you up. We're gonna have to have lunch or breakfast or something, okay?

Thea James 3:37

Okay, sure. Absolutely. Feel free. Just ping me.

LT 3:40

Okay.

Sam 3:41

And you know I have a question about Boston, so . . .

LT 3:44

Alright. Um, so Dr. James, we know you lived in Alexandria and you went to George Washington High School. It was . . . by the

Winning Drum Major Against Bias

LT 3:55

time I came along, it was already a junior high. And we know that you were a drum major. So tell us more about what was it like being a smart girl in Alexandria and what was GW in particular like for you?

Thea James 4:08

Yeah, so I don't want to dispel any notions, but like I don't -- I never considered myself a smart girl, you know. I mean, I just was a regular person. There may have been some descriptives or descriptors, you know, that would accompany you know, who I grew what I was like growing up. And uh not a lot different now either, but I never considered myself a smart girl, but I did question a lot of things. And you know, and I um pushed a lot of envelopes, you know, and so I was very like an independent thinker and just you know, didn't -- I just felt like there were lots of rules and things that didn't make sense. And so, but at the exact same time, you know, I was raised to realize that you can, or I was raised that I can do anything I want to do. I was raised that I can be anything I want to be. I was even raised with the explicit language that said, there are no gender roles. You can do --

LT 5:15

Whaaat?

Thea James 5:16

Oh, yeah. There are no gender roles is what my mother told me. And so you do you do whatever you want to do. Nobody tells you what you can't do. And that had a lot to do with me becoming drum major.

LT 5:31

Keep going. Tell us about that.

Thea James 5:33

Well, you know, I was in the band and I wanted to -- I played flute in the band. We had concert band and marching band. I played the flute in marching band, and I played bass clarinet in the uh concert band. And from the very, very beginning, I had aspirations of being the drum major because the drum majors . . . I just I just loved them, you know. I don't care whose band they were in, anywhere in the country, I loved them. But our drum majors were always honestly, you know, like a tall, skinny Caucasian boy, you know. And so I had expressed this want to our band director at the time. And he told me -- and believe me, I played sports and stuff, too-- he told me that our style of marching was too rigorous for a girl. Now, I think that was just-- he's just covering up or whatever. But I thought that was -- you know -- that was absurd to me. And there's no way I'm gonna accept something like that. And so every year, the three high schools, Hammond, TC, and GW, we went to band camp together. And at band camp-- and it was always either in Orkney Springs, Virginia, which was an old Civil War camp, and one year it was even at Shenandoah Conservatory of Music. But there were three elements to that curriculum when you were there. We were there for a week or so, and in the morning, we would have like sectionals, you know? Like, whatever your instrument was at noon, and I don't know why they chose it at noon, like high noon, summertime, heatm, Virginia, and a marching band.

LT 7:22

Wow.

Thea James 7:23

And you know, so the bands would be on the field. You couldn't move if a fly got on you, or you can't touch it. And then the evenings . . . It would be concert band under the stars. But it was also the place where we auditioned for drum major. And so you generally were drum major like in your senior-- junior /senior year. And so band camp was where everybody--the three high schools --auditioned for it. So what I decided, despite what this guy told me, I learned the routine and I-- you know, the auditioning routine? I practiced it in a very clandestine way. I was just like - - And I on that day . . . And they had judges, you know? The high school band directors that judges at this table, and I showed up. I just showed up.

LT 8:14

I love this!

Thea James 8:15

And I was like, what is he gonna do? Is he gonna say what he said to me in front of his colleagues in front of these judges, you know? And so long story short, I won the job, you know. And so that was the beginning of the end of that story. I mean, I was - - they had to give me a uniform and stuff like that because they got me shorter pants for whatever reason. I guess because the other ones were long, which could hem them. But long story short, that was that was it. That's how it happened. That's just exactly how it happened.

LT 8:49

To the best of your knowledge, were you actually the first female drum major at the high school?

Thea James 8:56

There's no question. Because that same year, another one was the same, was the first at Hammond. But she wasn't black, you know? She was a white kid. But I even still remember her name and everything. Susan Roberts was her name. She also was a flute player. But at any rate, I'm pretty sure that was her name. The long story short was, yeah, I was the first female and the first black drum major at GW.

LT 9:27

Incredible.

Sam 9:27

This is so amazing.

Thea James 9:33

Oh my gosh. But it felt like - -

Sam 9:34

It's where the three - - sorry, go on.

Thea James 9:38

The white - - yeah! The tall hat and the baton and all that. Absolutely, for sure.

Sam 9:45

I was gonna comment on the fact that the way you describe Band camp -- and that's where the three high schools meet. Obviously, a big deal in the movie and this season is all about sports and partially stems from LT's experience at TC, which is GW's rival, as you were pointing out, but you also are pointing out how they worked together or there were moments of juncture.

Thea James 10:16

Yeah, absolutely.

Sam 10:16

So there's such - - that was a story that Linda, who we'll hear from on a different podcast, told us as well, which is that actually the rivalry community-wise in Alexandria was kind of incredible, as well. And that it brought energy rather than just tension. So there's such a deep mythology around this period, around Remember the Titans, around integration. Do you have any thoughts or reflections, if not on that film, as you said, we don't really remember it, it's fine, or just on the rivalry between the three high schools before they merged, especially from your experience as a drum major? You just told a story of acknowledging places where you came together, which is pretty incredible. Yeah.

Integration And Becoming The Minority

Thea James 11:09

Right. Well, well, you know, there was a time when there was no TC Williams. You know, I remember a time when there was no T C Williams, and so, I remember . . . so I would say I can take it back to middle school. And actually, all of our parents who were Black in Alexandria who did not go to school in D.C. went to Parker Gray. They went to Parker Gray High School, and they all graduated from there. And I actually went to middle school at Parker Gray Middle School. I did seventh and eighth grade there, and I remember it was pretty much all -Black with my seventh grade. And I remember coming back to school first day of school in the eighth grade, and I remember turning the corner on - - I think it was Wythe Street, I think, is the name of the street that the school is on, and all on the lawn, were mostly white kids. And I -- me and my colleagues were all minorities, and those kids had been brought in from other schools. I've forgotten the name of some of the schools now, but one of them was out in Del Rey. I forget the name of it. But anyway, from that point - - from eighth grade until I graduated in 12th grade, myself and I think it was three other Black girls were . . . We were all tracked, right? And so in our classes, I took all my classes with them until we graduated after that, to my recollection. And we were minorities all of a sudden, but it was pretty fascinating, quite frankly. And by the way, in seventh ndrde,nc enoo there actually was o

LT 13:11

In the school??

Thea James 13:12

In the seventh grade, yeah. I remember that. I remember that. And then in the eighth grade, this whole busing changing thing happened, integration happened, and we went went from being a majority to minority. And high school was fine, you know. I mean, we were who we were and that type thing. Um But it w as kind of fascinating. It was quite an experience, for sure.

Joy In Music And Learning Accountability

LT 13:50

Is there any moment from you being a drum major that stands out to you?

Thea James 14:00

Yeah, that one time was a little bit unfortunate, but one time I fell.

LT 14:05

Okay, well now you gotta keep going.

Thea James 14:08

So, you know, usually we enter the field from the the goal line - - either end. But then there became this style of, I think, - - University of Michigan or somebody started it - - but this style of coming out on the 50-yard line. And I think we were playing at TC that day, and it was muddy. It had rained or whatever. And I took like the first three or four steps - - how you prance out? And I fell. And I remember hearing laughter, and I was like, oh God, I gotta get up. And I did get up, but there was nothing but joy the entire time of being drum major. Just fun and joy. I loved music. I mean, I had been - - I used to go to band camp before we did marching band camp, when I was in elementary school. Middle school, we had band camp, but it was a different kind. You didn't go away. It was just local and that type thing, where you could learn new instruments if you wanted to and things like that. In fact, that's how I started to play bass clarinet because I started out playing flute. And then I wanted to learn alto clarinet, and they only had a bass, and I fell in love with that instrument. And so yeah, I loved the whole thing about it. I loved marching; I loved the routines; I loved conducting the band; and I just loved it. I just loved the whole thing, and it was just sort of like a dream come true for me. It was amazing. I have one picture that I have to find. I don't think it's hard to find though, but there's a picture of myself - - Because we were a little bit of a crew, myself and Linda's sister, Cheryl, who was in the band, also. Her brother played in the band. He wasn't in our crew, but he played saxophone, Cheryl played clarinet, and then there was Celeste - - Celeste Chapman - - who was a cheerleader at G.W. And so we were - - oh, and Alice Wigglesworth. She, too, was a cheerleader. Oh my god. Oh no, no, no, no, no. Hold on a second. She wasn't a cheerleader. She was like the pom-pom people. Pom-pom girls.

LT 16:30

Yeah.

Thea James 16:31

Had on these nice black skirts and these sweaters and things. And they had pom-poms. But we were a crew and all of us were involved in the in the band in some way. And it was great. But I learned to be - - I learned what it meant to be somewhat like a citizen from being in the band. Because the director, he always told us that how we behaved - - w herever we were - - however we behaved, we were representing the band. And so, we kind of - - you'd be on the bus, and he just reminded you that wherever you are, you represent an organization. It's not just you on your own. You are accountable for your behavior, how you act, and how you carry yourself because you are representing this band and this school. So that was, I would say, somewhat of my earliest recollection of acountability in that way.

Thea James 17:45

My dad always held me accountable for many things since I was probably four years old. I remember when we used to go into Burger King, and if at the counter, the person who was waiting on us - - They weren't rude or anything, but if they were just deadpan- faced and doing the basics and nothing more, if I mentioned that when we walked away from the counter, he would stop me in my tracks and say something like, "You have no right. You don't know that person. You don't know anything about that person. You don't know what that person's life is like. They may have some trouble. They may be suffering in some way, and they may - -" He just said, "You have no right." And I and then as I got older, I remember getting parking tickets, and even as a teenager and stuff, and he'd say, "Listen, I don't care how far back you take this excuse of this ticket, the fault lies with you." So he was that guy. He was that guy.

College Choices Hampton And Pledging Delta

LT 18:53

Can you tell us then about your journey after G.W. High School onto Hampton? But by the way, I didn't go immediately to Howard University, but I, too, went to a HBCU - - Howard - - for a couple of years, which was incredibly impactful for me. But how did you get to Hampton and what what was that experience like?

Thea James 19:17

So, you know, it's a very it's a very interesting thing. So, like I said, I was always pushing the envelope. You know, I was a little bit rebellious, and I told my parents for no reason other than being rebellious that I wasn't gonna go to college and I just wasn't gonna do it.

LT 19:40

Was it their expectation? Did they want you to go to college?

Thea James 19:43

Oh yeah, oh yeah, and I wasn't gonna do it just because they wanted me to do it, right?

LT 19:47

Had they been? Did they go to college?

Thea James 19:49

No, no. Yes, high school.

LT 19:51

You were bucking the trend.

Thea James 19:53

Oh yeah, both of them, right? So and I didn't do that well on the SAT, but I got - - Oh! I've left something out. One night we were at a party, and I remember being at the party, and I kind of remember just like thinking. . . I don't know how this happened, but I had this thing going on in my mind. And just just looking around the party and started just thinking about stuff and now it's like what am I gonna do? If I don't go to college, this is what I'm gonna be doing. If I don't go to college, this is what I'm gonna be doing, and this is all I'm gonna be doing. This is it. And I remember thinking, I wanna see a little more. I want to do a little more, and I'm curious about some things and some places. Even if I can just go someplace, I'm a little bit curious. So that's when I made up my mind for sure. I was like, yeah, I'm gonna go to college. I'm gonna do that.

Thea James 21:02

And so then I took the SAT, and I got maybe - - I think my first acceptance was FAMU. Okay, I remember that. And honestly, Hampton had put me on a waiting list. And then I forget the rest, who was in the lineup, but I just wanted to leave home. And so that's - - Oh! North Carolina A&T because that's where I ended up going the first year and - -

LT 21:33

Oh, you transferred?

Thea James 21:35

I transferred, and I transferred because I felt like I was hanging out a little bit too much down there. And my grades were fine, you know, grades were fine, but I felt like - I mean, I was mature enough to know that I probably needed to transfer, and also all my friends were seniors. That's the thing. When I got there - - And we we were in the same dorm. And so when I got there, at least back then, I met two seniors who were roommates, and I was just hanging out with them most of the time because I was just curious. And so I had decided midway through that I was gonna transfer. They were gonna be gone anyway, and the only other people I knew at that time were was my roommate who was also a freshman from North Carolina. And so after that, I went to Hampton, and Hampton was fine, although again, like I've said, I've always been somebody who was pushing envelopes and doing various different things, and so I pledged when I was at Hampton.

LT 22:51

What? You joined a sorority?

Thea James 22:53

I did. And you know how it happened? I was - -

LT 22:55

Tell us!

Thea James 22:57

I was - - During rush time, you know how those sororities go around to the different dorms and stuff and they serenade and all that? And I was in a dorm with a person who was a year ahead of me, who was in a sorority, a nd I was heckling. And I was like, oh, you know, why are they doing . . . And she was like, "Look, people who do that do that because they wish they could do it, and they know they you can't do it." And I was like, anybody can do it, anybody can do it. You just have to have discipline, anybody can do it, and dah dah dah dah. And that's how I went. So I'm a Delta, and that's how I wound up pledging.

LT 23:42

This this is hilarious. First of all, Hampton is not known for encouraging rebellion in any kind of way.

Thea James 23:50

But I came there that way! That's what I'm saying. That's why I started off saying I never considered myself a smart girl. I mean, I don't think of my . . . I don't have those kind of notions in my mind about that I'm anything other than who I am. A regular human being. I just do what I do, but I'm a free thinker, and I'm always questioning things. And honestly, it it has helped me tremendously in my in my career, to be honest with you, in terms of being able to question things, because it leads to changing the life course trajectory of people when you don't accept the status quo.

LT 24:30

100%.

Thea James 24:32

When you don't accept right what's in front of you, you know what I mean? And so that has been the way I have lived my my whole career as a resident, young doctor, and even now. It's just the way it's been.

Health Equity And Social Determinants

Thea James 24:48

Because I feel many people are not able to achieve what they want or even thrive in life based upon not having access to something. And many times the access is due to people who already have a mindset about why these people are not thriving. And everything is everything except the real thing. And it's so easy to know why they're not thriving. All you have to do is ask them. You just have to ask them, and they will readily tell you. And then some people are afraid to ask because they feel like they can't do anything about it. I mean, these seemingly unsolvable problems are also created. I mean, the setting for those problems to actually fester and become worse and worse are due to mindset about people. And so you limit them from having access to thriving. And at my hospital, we don't do that. We're very different. And that's why I ask you if you remember DC General, because it was what we call today essential hospitals. It was a safety net hospital. Oh, you're in California, you know LA County, right?

LT 26:16

Yeah. I mean I grew up in the area, but I'm more familiar with Alexandria Hospital than DC General. I just heard heard stories about DC General.

Thea James 26:26

About DC General. Yeah, so it's different. It's different. The two are different. Alexandria and and DC General are very different. But if you come in in these doors, you're gonna fill out a determinants of health screener that's gonna ask a few questions questions, just so doctors are aware of the life the patient is having. Simple example: you might be somebody who has diabetes, and you might come in with your diabetes out of control, you know, your blood sugar is really high. But if all you do is give them insulin and discharge them, they're gonna come back in even sicker. See if they're somebody who requires insulin. Because if they're homeless, they have no place to store it. Stuff like that. But if you don't understand that, you don't know that. And what generally will happen historically, like when patients come in over and over again with the same problem, you treat them and you discharge them, and in a few weeks they'll be back like clockwork. If you don't understand what that's about and you don't interrogate that cycle or that cyclical occurrence, you just won't know. And meanwhile, they're getting sicker, it's costing a lot of money, and their health is worse. And so, long story short, our goal here is to change your life force through things like housing, jobs, education, all these other things that are required for people to thrive for generations. I mean, their kids and their kids' kids. So, you do a lot of things different here.

LT 28:23

It sounds very holistic.

Thea James 28:25

It is.

LT 28:27

I appreciate that.

Thea James 28:28

Yeah, yeah, it's quite holistic. So I don't know if you had planned for me to go down that route, but . . .

LT 28:33

Oh, we just - -

Sam 28:35

We have no plans. There is not an idea of plans. We are free-flowing and wanted that, and in fact, we're having a little side combo you've answered so much already with that, and I think with your question about the drum major, too, to think about mission,

Georgetown Med And Staying Invisible

Sam 28:53

right? And how significant it is for you. And I was gonna ask you about the move to Georgetown Med.

Thea James 28:59

Oh yeah, that was different! That was a big deal.

Sam 29:01

Tell me about that. So I was at Georgetown - - but not Georgetown Med - - for 12 years, the beginning of my career. It's a different place in every way, and I want to hear about this from you.

Thea James 29:14

Yeah, it's a different place. It's incredibly . . . it was a great education, for sure. I mean, I used to call it a necessary figure in in some ways. Great education, but there was . . . I felt a bit of insecurity having my life be in the hands of people who - - First of all I'm gay, so I was worried about that, right, and how you know that might be . . .

Sam 29:56

The Catholics were . . .

Thea James 29:57

Yeah, yeah, and Jesuits. And even though they actually had a person who's gay come and talk with our class one time . . . But there were some strict, there were some regimented things there. Like on Saturdays, we had this really rigorous but excellent surgery sort of rounds we had to go to. And we had to wear all white, you know. Everybody had to wear white. The guys look like the Good Humor man. And I, the girls had to have white blouse, white skirt, so there was that. You couldn't like have, if you were a guy, these . . . earrings and all these things, and nobody was having tattoos back then. So there some strict kind of boundaries around things. So I didn't feel completely safe. And so I felt like . . . I mean, it was great education, no question about When you got out of there, they can put you anywhere and you'll be fine. The first two years and the clinical years, we had - - Most medical schools in your fourth year, you have a lot of time to do electives. We did medicine twice, third year and fourth year. We did surgery twice, and you do it in different hospitals. We rotated through nine different hospitals. That was the other beauty of the curriculum and stuff. But when you got out of there . . . And I definitely always chose the hardest rotations because I knew I wanted to be an ER doctor from the beginning - - always knew that. I didn't ever want to be afraid, and so I would always dive in like head first. But I felt like I went underwater when I got there, and I stayed underwater until it was time to graduate, and then I would resurface. I didn't want . . . I wanted to be as invisible as possible. But it was it was an unquestionably incredible curriculum and stuff, but it was different, so I was very conscious of who I was and how I was perceived and things like that.

LT 32:06

It's so funny - -

Sam 32:08

So different than even your drum major.

Thea James 32:10

Oh, yeah. Oh, my God, yes. Yeah, right. There was no pushing the envelopes there.

LT 32:18

Good point. Although I was thinking it's so funny to hear you say you that you didn't think of yourself as a smart girl, and yet all these qualities that you demonstrate, just taking initiative, being inquisitive, all those things just indicated just what kind of what kind of an intellect and smart person you were. You've been in Boston for a while, right?

Thea James 32:41

Yeah, over 30 years.

LT 32:43

Over 30 years!

Sports Fandom Access And Listening In The ER

Thea James 32:44

Got here in ' 91.

LT 32:46

Do you consider yourself a Boston sports fan?

Thea James 32:50

You're trying to get me killed over here.

LT 32:52

It's just a question! We can't help but ask that question, especially . . . First of all, one of the things I talk about in my book is how I became a Boston Celtics fan. And so the origin of that. So there's a lot of layers to this, but however way you want to respond, that doesn't get you killed, we appreciate.

Thea James 33:23

No, you know, all the teams here are fine with me, but I like other teams, as well.

LT 33:28

Okay.

Thea James 33:29

My spouse is from Brooklyn and an all day long Yankee fan. And it's interesting in Alexandria growing up, all my family, they were all Yankee fans.

LT 33:42

Really?

Thea James 33:43

Yeah, they were Yankee fans. My mother was a Yankee fan. My father liked the Senators, you know, back then is what they were called. And we all were Redskin fans, for sure. But I liked the Patriots too, you know. Those guys are incredible.

LT 34:00

I love how you just do your own path. I love that. I never - -

Sam 34:06

You also were both like a diplomat and iconoclast at the same time. You're amazing.

Thea James 34:16

Oh my gosh. I mean, I don't know. Listen, I feel like everybody is is who they are, and with access . . . The only thing that prevents people from being everything they want to be is access, you know? I'm always . . . In my mind, everybody's a smart girl. Everybody's a smart girl, everybody's a smart person, you know what I mean? And however you define that yourself because . . . I don't know. I am just like that. I like all kinds of people. And sometimes people say that about me as as like a - - "Don't ask her because she likes everybody." I don't know. I just - - I don't know. I'm a human. And when I was a resident, some patients would come in the ER, and people would say, "That's a Thea patient. Have her see that person. Have her see that patient." But everybody's got a reason for stuff. Person's unhappy? They come in with all kinds of emotions, and my goal is always just to listen and watch them decompress right in front of my eyes just because I'm listening. And not I'm not walking up on them with an agenda, you know. I'm just listening and agreeing with them. I walk in the room, I can feel that they're upset, and mainly because they've been waiting a long time. And the first thing I do is acknowledge that and you know, thank them for waiting. I'm so glad they waited.

LT 36:24

Appreciate you.

Jackie Robinson Pick And Closing Thoughts

Thea James 36:26

No, appreciate you!

Sam 36:26

It doesn't have to be your favorite because again, you're someone who likes a lot of things, finds value in a lot of things, and you are remarkable and everything I want to be when I grow up. . . Favorite, or you know, a shout out to a sports movie, TV show, book, podcast, etc., that that you want us to watch or listen to that you feel. If there's a Thea patient, is there a Thea sports media?

Thea James 36:58

Yeah, if I could say one. Ppeople might call me old school for it, and I like the Jackie Robinson Story. Actually, I just saw it again on a plane this last week. Just because of what it meant and what he what he went through and what he endured and stuff like that. I thought that was a big deal for somebody to be willing to endure stuff like that. A nd probably something else will come to me after this is over. I'm sure it will.

LT 37:35

It's beautiful. It's a beautiful answer.

Sam 37:37

Yeah, it is beautiful, and also we always take more recommendations.

Thea James 37:43

Okay, okay.

Sam 37:46

W ell, we can't thank you enough for hanging out with us today when we know you're incredibly busy with your job as VP of Mission, with your multiple nonprofits, with your holding multiple sports fans in your household and in your life, which is difficult work. Thank you so much for being with us today. LT, do you want to take us out?

LT 38:18

Um no. Sam, you - - I mean that really covered it. Dr. James, it exceeded all expectations. And you're just an amazing human, just an amazing human. So we appreciate you so much.

Thea James 38:32

As long as you recognize that I am human. As humans, we are flawed. So you're just moving through the world, like trying to try to - -

Sam 38:45

Do you get a lot of - - Sorry, go on.

Thea James 38:48

No, just trying to learn, explore, and help people. I just be there for people. It might sound corny, but I'm just making my way.

LT 39:11

Not at all. And thanks again for joining us today.

Thea James 39:15

Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm proud of you. Keep this thing going up, just just keep it going. You know, talking about smart girls. Thank you so much.