Episode 6 - "What is a Spiritual Narcissist?" With Atlas Taylor

We journey into the heart of human connection with a connection coach Atlas Taylor  whose work focuses on guiding people back to themselves—and to one another in ways that heal rather than harm. While some might label her a relationship coach, she intentionally uses the word connection to describe her work, because connection is something far more foundational. It’s not just about romantic partnerships it's about the invisible threads that bind us from the moment we are born. And yet, despite being wired for connection, so few of us are ever taught how to relate in conscious, healthy ways.

This episode explores the truth that while much of our trauma happens in relationship, our deepest healing also takes place through relationship. Our guest shares how her role as a coach is to help others recognize and repair those relational wounds starting with the most important connection of all: the one we have with ourselves.

But this conversation doesn’t shy away from the shadows. We dive into the difficult but necessary topic of spiritual narcissism a form of manipulation that is often cloaked in light, love, and “higher consciousness.” Our guest shares her own experience with a powerful woman who embodied both beauty and strength, but who ultimately used those traits to manipulate others into handing over their power under the guise of spiritual leadership.

We explore how people with narcissistic traits can be incredibly magnetic how they often present as wise, enlightened, or deeply inspiring. And yet, underneath that spiritual facade, there can be a subtle but devastating form of control that leaves others feeling confused, invalidated, and disempowered. Our guest offers a compassionate yet clear-eyed look at this dynamic, and how we can begin to untangle ourselves from it by learning to trust our inner knowing and reclaim our personal sovereignty.

Whether you've encountered toxic power structures masked as healing communities, or are simply seeking to understand how to build authentic relationships rooted in integrity, this episode will resonate deeply.

Atlas Taylor: 
Instagram: @atlasflow

Connect with me at:

Instagram: 

wellnesselizabethvallejo

theholisticselflovepodcast

Book a wellness retreat at:

The Anchor Retreat

Transcript

Elizabeth Vajello 0:00

Welcome to the Holistic Self-Love podcast. I'm Elizabeth Vajero, a life coach here to help you build healthy habits for real change. Join me as we explore practical ways to reduce your stress, find balance, and feel your best every day.

Elizabeth 0:17

Welcome to the Holistic Self-Love podcast, where we love to interview people that will help us transform our hearts, minds, and souls. And today we have a very, very eyeopening. interview today with Atlas Taylor. Um, Atlas is a relationship coach, a connection coach. Um, she also does a lot of movement. She's an author of a beautiful poetry book, but one of my favorite things about her and what connected me to her is I heard her say a phrase, which was Spiritual narcissism, which is of today's episode. So thank you so much for being here. Um, funny story. Somebody send me something that you posted. And I was, had you living in my brain for like a month now. Maybe a little bit longer. I have referenced your post. I've talked about it. And then I decided to reach out to you. Mm-hmm. And you answered, and we live in the same state. Yeah. And you live 40 minutes away. that's true. And You are gracious enough to come. So thank you so much for being here.

Atlas 1:21

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

Elizabeth 1:23

That's honor. You're gone. I'm really excited to meet you and I love anytime I can share my space and like. Have people in my space. So One, what is a connection coach? Because I feel like a lot of people don't even understand what that is. Yeah. And how did you become one?

Atlas 1:38

Yeah. So what is a connection coach? Um, another way you can totally say you just did is a relationship coach. Um, I like the word connection because I think it facilitates a different emotional response, which I appreciate. Um, I think that connection is something that we all crave. Yeah. And that we're all, you know, born into. And it's a really innate part of being human. And I feel like we have no education around how to be in connection in a healthy way. And so,

Elizabeth 2:07

Fully agree.

Atlas 2:08

yeah.

Elizabeth 2:09

This was heartbreaking.

Atlas 2:10

Yeah. I mean, connection is something that we're all in from the moment that we're born and. I think that most of the trauma that we face happens in relationship and most of the healing that we experience also happens in relationship. Um, and so yeah, as a connection coach, my job is really to support people in connecting to themselves and others in ways that heal instead of harm.

Elizabeth 2:38

Oh, that's so beautiful. And when you. say like relationships. It could this be for any relationship?

Atlas 2:44

It really can. Yeah, Like I think a lot of the time when we show up in relationship in one area of our life, one way, we show up that way in a lot of other relationships too, whether it be our relationship to food or substances or sleep, or our kids or our partners, or our parents. Um, when we work on one relationship, it often ripples into all of the other relationships that we have.

Elizabeth 3:04

Oh my God, I've never heard it be described like that. and it's funny because I. As a life coach and a retreat host, I'm very big on like, well, what is our love language? Mm-hmm. Like, Can we learn our love language? Because we're probably speaking different languages. But even with my child, I. I know her love language and she knows mine, and we're very respectful of that. And I didn't even realize that. I like what you just said. It's like, oh yeah, I just think she's like one of the loves of my life. So I treat it very much like one of the most sacred relationships that I have. I I'm very careful. We just recorded a podcast where we were talking about, um, once I realized what she was diagnosed with and that her brain worked a little different than mine, it was like, well, how do I dive into learning about her brain because I need to learn how to communicate with her. So I love that you said that because when people come to me, and I don't know if you get this as a coach, sometimes it's issues with their boss, always with their mother and their father. Mm-hmm. Always who are always self parenting. After, you know, God bless them, they, they did what they could. tell me a little bit about why did you become a connection coach? Like what led you down this path?

Atlas 4:14

it's something I could talk about for so long, but to simplify it, I feel like I've always been a relationally oriented person. Mm. And as cliche as it sounds, I do think it was a case of turning my pain into my passion. Mm-hmm. I think. Like I mentioned earlier, a lot of the trauma or pain that I experienced happened in a relationship, and it sent me on this journey hunting for answers of like, why, why do we end up in relationships that hurt us? And specifically like patterns. Why patterns? Because for me, like from my first relationship, I, I had my first boyfriend when I was

Elizabeth 4:48

was 12. I mean, he was three. Okay.

Atlas 4:49

older than me. Yeah. Um, and. It was a really turbulent relationship and that kinda like set the stage for this pattern, um, that I ended up playing out for much of my young adulthood and even into my adulthood. Um, and it was like even when I went to therapy and started understanding the roots of the patterns, I was still playing them out. And so, um, I started to get like really passionate about this question of like, why do we play out these patterns even when we're aware of where they come from and how do we take our power back? And change the pattern. And that's where I feel like therapy is really good at getting to like the history and the root of where it started. But coaching, you know this as a coach, it's a little bit more like goal oriented.

Elizabeth 5:32

Yeah, like now what? Like we can, you guys, if you want, you can pitch a tent and live in your trauma, but like we're here to like move

Atlas 5:39

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And I discovered, um, a man called Mark Groves. He has a podcast as well. He's a connection specialist, he calls himself. And so he was the one that gave me a window into like what that even was. Um, 'cause at first I was considering going back to school and becoming a therapist, but I really don't thrive in the school environment here. And so becoming a certified coach was another way to step into the psychology world and work with people on relationships without going back to school.

Elizabeth 6:07

I've met therapists that are like, I wish I would've Know what a coach was. Mm-hmm. Because they're. So limited, you know? Right, Yeah, yeah. Legally, they're so limited, And like for me, like I get to go on retreat with my clients and I get to see it on a much deeper level, and we get to have all of these exp experience. Like you can't go on a retreat with your therapist. No.

Atlas 6:24

No, there's a lot more boundaries you have to have with a licensed therapist, and that is something I love about being a certified coach instead, is you can build a little bit more of a personal relationship with them. Um, and kind of like personalize your practice a little bit more. A million percent, which is really nice.

Elizabeth 6:37

Yeah. I, I learned very early on, like you know, I think when I first started like six years ago, I was like, I would have these outlines and I'm like, this is what we're gonna work on. Mm-hmm. And then that would go out the door and I completely learned, oh no, I have to meet people where they are.

Atlas 6:51

can't prepare for a session. No.

Elizabeth 6:53

Oh God No, Yeah, you can meditate and ask the universe, put the in you. But there is no like, 'cause they'll, they'll, there's always something else going on. Then I learned to maybe, um. I go through a lot of like self discovery questions. Mm-hmm. That helps. But I always allow them, I always say it's 15 minutes. It usually goes more, but it's like what you said, as humans, we need connection. And a lot of my clients just need to feel that somebody is listening to them and holding space for them. Yep. And I love to be that person. Yeah. And then obviously I will hold him accountable. and and stuff like that. But I'm really glad I didn't pick to be a therapist either. Me too. Like I really enjoy coaching. Me too. I really feel satisfied in what I'm doing and I could be like, you know, a complete hippie and be like, okay, we're gonna stop and do some sound bowls and I think you're chakra and you know, and they get it and it's so fun. Yeah. I mean, I have an experience, I have a set like this on the retreat property and there's always one That gets a little weird in every retreat and it's never the same one. Yeah. And you know, I, my business is with my brother, it's a family run business, and he didn't really, he's, he was raised, born again Christian. We have different moms. He didn't really get it. And then I started doing work on him, and then I started telling him like, no, no, no. This one is clogged. Yeah. And it would be, 'cause collectively my group was going through something. Yeah. And it's always like that. Yeah. And that's why I love Being a coach and I love doing retreats. Mm-hmm. Um, so I love talking to other coaches because people don't get It Yeah. People also don't get like how heavy our work is.

Atlas 8:28

It can be very intense. It can be very intense. I try to have practices around holding myself after my sessions and like letting things go and not taking too much on and all of that.

Elizabeth 8:40

Yeah. So when you walked in you were like, oh, I love your space. and like this is a workspace. But it's also a place where like when I get to those stairs over there, I Do a closing ceremony because this, none of this this is here. Yeah. It does not belong to my family. It doesn't belong to my partner. I also, another thing that I learned, I wanna say about three or four years ago, is not taking calls when I'm not at cap. Like when I'm at capacity and I can't, because I would then become resentful. Or the phone call would then make me cry. 'cause like you said, you've been really into this your whole life. You just didn't really know. Yeah. I've been a life coach my entire

Atlas 9:20

Totally.

Elizabeth 9:21

And people come to us for that. Yeah. My daughter, um, constantly jokes that like I can be in any country. We were in Brazil and I don't speak Portuguese, and someone started crying to me. Yeah. And it's a very regular thing. Yeah. I have to be very careful of who I open up to.

Atlas 9:34

Yeah.

Elizabeth 9:35

Yeah. So I can imagine that's what you go through relations at.

Atlas 9:38

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when I became certified, all my friends were like, wow, you've been doing this for all of us for free for years, and it's really cool and rewarding to turn something that's like so innate and so passionate, um, into work. Yeah, it's really cool. I.

Elizabeth 9:52

Okay. So talk to me about, I wanna talk about spiritual narcissism. Yes. I mentioned it in another podcast that I have never even really said the word narcissist in my socials. If you go on my social media, it's very light and fluffy. I don't talk about it. Um, I went through, uh, a whole process when I wanted to make this podcast with a really great friend of mine. And she said, you help women with narcissistic abuse. Mm-hmm. And I was like, I know, but I never talk about it. And she's like, well, maybe you should. And she was the one who sent me your post. Oh, she's the reason you're here. Go. Yeah. So explain to me a little bit what you think it means. Yeah. And then I'll tell you how it touched me.

Atlas 10:32

totally. I mean, so spiritual narcissism, you first just have to understand what narcissism is, um, which I feel like. Something that isn't talked about enough is that narcissism is often this maladaptive coping strategy that someone learned in order to protect themselves. Yeah. They're often really sensitive people with actually really low self-esteem. Mm-hmm. And so in order to cope, they have this grandiose, self inflated, um, ego. Yeah. And it's.

Elizabeth 11:03

I'm very self-serving.

Atlas 11:04

Yes. And, And, it's, it's very manipulative. It can be very confusing to be in a relationship with them. It can be very hot and cold, and there's this oscillation of having to like comfort them through their smallness and victim hood. And then also having to be this constant source of like, validation for them in their like grandiose nature too. Um,

Elizabeth 11:21

and being their victim. Because

Atlas 11:23

totally

Elizabeth 11:23

a narcissist is a bully and a victim.

Atlas 11:25

they can't be one, they'll switch to the other And it's a very disorienting feeling

Elizabeth 11:30

So as, as the person who's receiving this abuse, you're literally, it's like, I, I kind of tell my clients this. It's like the narcissist will throw you off the building and then be waiting to

Atlas 11:39

catch you at the bottom to, to to save you. Mm-hmm. Yeah. and to make you think that you need them. To be saved and yeah, it's this very discombobulating experience and something that narcissists are really, really good at. Is using whatever context they're in to their advantage. So you take a spiritual narcissist and what they will do is they will take the lingo in the spiritual community and the archetypes in the spiritual community, and they will use that to assist their manipulation. So if a narcissist is gonna sexually assault someone in the spiritual community, they might use like tantric language or shamanic language, like using the spiritual context in order to assist them in their manipulation. Well, because they're very good at, um, behaving like they're victim so that they seem like chameleon. Yeah. Yeah. They're a chameleon. Like, you know, I'm very careful with my clients when they're like, I think he's my soulmate. And it's like week two. And, you know, uh, I'd love to hear your experience if you've ever had a narcissist in your life, because I think I told you this yesterday, once I actually realized what a narcissist was, I was like, holy, I have been living amongst them my whole entire life. yeah, With spiritual narcissism in particular. Uh, it's so interesting and it, it go, I've been around it since early childhood as well. Um, but in more recent years, the spiritual narcissism that I see is usually someone in the community that is incredibly charismatic, attractive, successful. um, I. Often in a leadership role. Mm-hmm. And really kind of abusing the power that they have, whether it be their looks, their money, their social status, um, to assert power over other people. Yeah. Um, And sometimes that's through cosing them into like weird spiritual experiences. Sometimes it's coercing them into relationship. Sometimes it's, you know, whatever it is they're asking other people to give their power away. Um, I could go into like a couple stories if you want.

Elizabeth 13:46

Stir, we would love to hear it.

Atlas 13:47

Yeah. Um hmm. So. I live in Colorado. Yeah. Like we know that there's a, a, a spiritual community here. One story I have is, is moving into a home where everyone was equal renters. But for some reason there was one person in the home that was looked at as like the leader in the house. And at first that seemed like healthy and normal and fine. Um, but the thing that was really strange was she had these spiritual practices and She started asserting that people needed to participate in those practices where she was a leader or she was gonna kick them out of the house.

Elizabeth 14:25

Oh, that sounds like a cult.

Atlas 14:26

Yes, very cultish.

Elizabeth 14:28

And you're just like looking for somewhere to rent.

Atlas 14:29

So I was living out of my van at the time and moved in because it was COVID, so it was like shelter in place. And I had a couple friends that lived.

Elizabeth 14:35

Again. So now she has even more power because you guys have nowhere to go. Yes. 'cause we're in the middle of a pandemic.

Atlas 14:41

she, you know, another thing that I think people don't talk about enough is there's often beautiful parts of people that have narcissistic traits as well. Yeah. And so you can be really pulled in by the beautiful parts of them. Um, she was a beautiful, powerful woman. Um, and I think that she used that power to manipulate people into handing their power over to her. Yeah. And going through these really strange, um. Spiritual, sexual, um, drug induced sometimes experiences. Wow. Um, and I also saw people be willing to do this, to be her partner. Um, okay. Or to be her friend, you know, and so it, it, was this really weird, one of the things she said to me at one point was, I am the gatekeeper to the unclean world.

Elizabeth 15:26

Oh my God. Okay, Atlas. This is full-blown like cult stuff.

Atlas 15:30

Yeah. I I agree. Yeah. And this is like very normalized in like the spiritual community

Elizabeth 15:35

Very normal.

Atlas 15:36

Denver and Boulder. there are, there are lots of groups of people with facilitators that are not equipped to actually hold a safe space mm-hmm. That are involving drugs that are, um, using manipulation. And the the sad thing is, is it takes advantage too of like people that are in Vulnerable places

Elizabeth 15:56

and desperate Connection. Yes. And desperate native, believing in

Atlas 15:59

Exactly.

Elizabeth 16:00

I feel like, I do love Colorado for so many reasons, and I did become very spiritual and into wellness. I've always, you know, known what my higher power was and, but it's almost like I'm on guard here. Me too, in Miami, it's a little different In Miami, it's very tantra orientated. You, you know, growing up in Miami, I know what a pervert looks like. Sure. Like, oh yeah. but I, I was just telling, oh, I was telling the facilitator who I'm doing her retreat in a couple weeks. I love her so much because I. One day I said, you know, the only guru I have is Jesus Christ. And she said, oh my God, yes. And I go, and I'm not knocking on people's door trying to sell 'em Jesus. Mm-hmm. Like, you either believe or you don't. But I'm always very thrown off by that in this community of like, you know, my experience was not as intense. Um, it was just this past year in 2024 when I went to get certified, uh, as a yoga teacher. And I've actually never spoken about this. Um, and. The yoga teacher that was doing it was, it wasn't, I, I don't, I almost, oh, And then this is where I think like, these people are gonna listen to it and I go into, like,

Atlas 17:09

have that feeling too.

Elizabeth 17:09

I go into like the victim mode of like, I don't wanna piss off my abuser. Yeah. But, um, I don't think he was smart enough to start a cult. To be honest. Um, he kind of looked like a, he, he kind of started to resemble a yoga teacher that's like strung out at the end of their career. He lived here. he was from Miami. Yeah. Um. Right away it was like, there is no cannabis, there is no coffee, there is no this. Meanwhile the whole property smelled like cannabis. I'm sober, but I do not like injustice. So one of my first questions was like, so quick question. So the whole property smells like, cannabis like, but we're not allowed to smoke. And he is like, yeah, because I'm not doing my yoga teacher training. So I immediately, as somebody who's been part of narcissistic abuse, I went into how do I make him happy? How do I like. Keep him happy during class because I need to pass. Because I just spend a lot of money. I'm 20 days away from my child, my partner, my business, um, my practice, how and how can I make this person happy to get Certified, and I felt like he was waving it Like over our heads. At one point he stopped an entire class and he made us take out our cell phones and he said, now I need you all to write a review and you can't write anything bad because this is Karma Yoga and somebody wasn't writing a review. and he goes. You what happened to your phone? And then I think he was kind of afraid of me too. He didn't really approach me too much because I'm very outspoken. Um, he went and knocked on my brother's door 'cause me and my brother did this together. And he said, why didn't you write a review before that? He was trying to give him cannabis and kind of trying to, and it, it was, it was very much like I would see him yelling at his staff, which is somebody who employs people. I think that's disgusting. And then I would see him go. this is embarrassing. They don't know what they're doing. They're making me look bad. Yeah. And I was just recognizing my body, how my body felt and my body felt like when I was in those toxic relationships. And it was so, that's why I feel like I was so touched by when I, what I read, because you're absolutely right. It's happening. I'm also like so obsessed with cults. Yeah. Like I will watch all of it. Did you see Mother God

Atlas 19:25

Yeah. Oh my

Elizabeth 19:26

Yeah. And it like happened here? First of all, why did I watch it before I was not sleeping. Yeah. It's just weird. But I, I always think like, how did somebody get sucked into this? And honestly, I want you to explain a little bit how narcissists suck us in because I always thought I was really powerful and I wasn't able to get sucked in. And I have been over and over.

Atlas 19:48

This is like such an important question and I love that you bring it up because I do think that we all think that we are not susceptible. Yeah. And that's one of the things that make. us more susceptible. So like really part of it is just like being willing to, to acknowledge that we're all susceptible to manipulation. We all have an Achilles heel. Yeah. And narcissists are brilliant at finding it and using it against us. Um, I also love that you talked about the way that your body felt. This is like a huge, huge, huge focus of my coaching practice too. And it sounds so simple, but it's like literally life changing for you to build relationship with your nervous system. Mm-hmm. And the cues that your body sends you, because your body will know what's up far before your brain does. And so like, yeah, really, really just learning the body cues as far as how narcissists rope you in. I really think that they are. trained to recognize the kind of person that will want to take care of them. Yes. And I'm that kind of person you might be as well.

Elizabeth 20:50

Oh yeah. 'cause we're healers, we wanna take care of

Atlas 20:52

Totally. And we're also female bodied, so we were conditioned from birth to be nurturers. Yep. Um, the example I got from my mother was, forgive at all costs. You prove you're a good person through Wow. Through taking it and continuing to show up, you know, and so.

Elizabeth 21:08

So you're the perfect victim.

Atlas 21:08

I'm the perfect victim. I am the perfect trauma bond for a narcissist because both the narcissist and me want the relationship to be all about him.

Elizabeth 21:17

Yeah. You know, and the and most female energy is like

Atlas 21:20

A lot of it is 'cause we're socialized to be that way and, and you know, I think that men are statistically more likely to become narcissists because they're not socialized to be in touch with empathy like we are.

Elizabeth 21:32

Just to be clear, there are a lot of female narcissists. There There are who have met them and they have different traits, but they're also very scary. I mean, you literally Atlas, you almost got sucked in. Oh my God. I need to know how you got out of this.

Atlas 21:45

You know, I, things had escalated to the point where she was telling people that they needed to go through her rebirth process in order to stay at the house. And that's when I said, I'm out. This is cultish. And what really scared me at that point was I was looking at my other friends in the house going, this is crazy, right? I.

Elizabeth 21:59

Like, you guys, are we all

Atlas 22:01

Same. thing. We're all saying the same thing, right? And one person saw what I was seeing and we both left the house.

Elizabeth 22:05

So wait, the other ones

Atlas 22:06

A lot of people were okay with it. And this was ki kind of one of those like really sobering moments for me of how we do all fall for it and how we're all willing to make sacrifices for connection.

Elizabeth 22:19

For connection. And you know what it goes back to is all those women that get catfished, all those men that go to all these countries to find love because love is so, it's a human need, and that's all we're looking

Atlas 22:32

Totally. And we're in an unprecedented time of disconnection. Yeah. Where we're all like so isolated and especially in the us so individualistic and so yeah, if you're living in a house with a really good friend who tells you that you have to do this thing in order to continue living with her, I.

Elizabeth 22:47

order to continue living. Yeah, that is such a whole there at the house. Totally in the middle of a pandemic.

Atlas 22:53

And it was so weird because she was just a renter like them. It wasn't like she owned the house. So I was, I was, oh my God. It really tripped me out on how these power dynamics happen. Um, and I was just much less emotionally involved with her. So I think it was easier for me to kind of, um, see through it and step out. And I had the van that I could move back into.

Elizabeth 23:11

But wait, let's talk about that real quick. The emotional. Apart, like you talked about how we are all susceptible. So what the narcissist does is it mirror, he mirrors your behavior or they mirror your behavior, right? Then they want you to be as vulnerable as possible because they're collecting all of this. So you're like, oh my God, they're holding space for me. They wanna know all about me. Now you're in there, and correct me if I'm wrong, but like you fall in love with the performer, the person that was love bombing you in the beginning. So then when they start to change, what happens? Your brain goes, wait, no, he's still a good person. A lot of things I deal with as a coach, um, with the after, because I deal with a lot of the after is it's amazing how you can just forget all of the bad stuff. Mm-hmm. And only remember the good. And it's like you said, we just want this connection and we want it so bad that we hold on to like, I don't know if the audience knows what, um. Bread crumbing is, but that's like in the beginning, they give you everything, right? So you're the most important. Um, The perfect example was before this partner who is an angel sent from heaven. God bless him. I don't know how I, what I did to deserve him. I was in a narcissistic relationship. Um. very short lived. I don't think he was good at it. And um, in the beginning it was like, you're so incredible and I love what you do, and oh my God, look how you work out. And then at the end he would walk by and make fun of me working out. Yeah. And it was because you're right, they're so insecure. they don't have the discipline. They don't take care of themselves. And, um, at the, at the very end of the relationship, I was okay with like, if he even said, oh, that's a nice outfit. He wasn't complimenting me. He wasn't throwing flowers on me, telling me how beautiful he was. But it took so much to get there. Yeah, And I think me and you talked a little bit about that yesterday, the cycle of like I are, I was in a situation where I needed to get in a fight with him. So that then there would be a little bit of fawning over me so he would stay and I was getting high from it. And as an addict, I was like, I am a, I remember thinking, I am addicted to this person. Yep. Because again, going back to my body, it felt, I felt that high. like I just had to go through a really crazy fight. But after that, he's gonna show me some sort of affection.

Atlas 25:26

Totally. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, getting out of my last narcissistic relationship, I remember approaching it like an addict with my therapist of like, I'm addicted to this person and I'm addicted to this cycle because what happens? What happens? is There's that rupture and then you go through this like hot and heavy repair that's like yeah, so emotionally charged and intense and it hurts. And then you have that high of reconnection. You usually have hot sex like, and it's the cortisol and the dopamine and you know, all of the brain chemicals that make you feel like accomplished. And we worked through it and now we're more connected than ever. We're stronger, and it is so addicting.

Elizabeth 26:01

And then they tell you that like it's because of you that they're who they are. They go

Atlas 26:05

No, exactly what to say. Yeah, and that's where you touched on it. Like they learn so much about you and they collect all this information that they can then use against you.

Elizabeth 26:13

yeah. Um, I did a lot of intense EDMR and it was, uh, 'cause I had like a very crazy accident. Um, But I was working through this and I, that's when I realized, oh my God, I was in a narcissistic relationship and I remember I had two therapists at the time. I was working with two different therapists because I was so scared I was gonna relapse. So I put myself in addiction therapy and then my regular trauma therapist and I. Like you just said, I took it like an addiction. So what is the first thing I need to do? I need to be clean for 30 days. Yep. So I literally in my phone had how many days I had been no contact. Yeah. And, um, I would do this thing to rewire my brain where when I would have a good memory, I would immediately remind myself of the last horrible thing he said to me. Yeah. Or you know, um, I remember one of the last communications that we had. He said, well, I'm gonna go to Colorado this weekend and pick up my stuff. And the old me in that toxic relationship would've been like, oh God. Yeah, because, and I just immediately remember going, I already mailed it to you, and I had it, And I got in the car and mailed it all to him because I was like, I need to cut all ties, like no more Netflix, Spotify, nothing with this person. Yeah. Ever. Again, because this is like, this isn't me. I didn't feel like

Atlas 27:27

Totally.

Elizabeth 27:28

I remember when I, so my partner. and, and I'm, maybe one day I'll do a whole podcast about this because he really is just, I don't know how he came into my life. He was my first boyfriend ever when we were 13 years old. My first kiss, my first handhold. And um, I remember telling him in the beginning of our relationship, like, I am a mess. Like I am such, I'm in fucking pieces. So here's the good news. You get to have me when I'm gonna rebuild myself. it's gonna be such a long road. So I just want you to know that I'm like broken, but I'm promised I'm gonna be better than ever. And like how am I getting goosebumps? And he reminds me of that sometimes where he's just like, do you remember who you were four years ago? Like you were a complete fucking mess. Also, I would like to say four years ago, I was already almost almost five years into my spiritual wellness journey, and the universe just like planted me and made me start from the beginning. Yeah. And it was that narcissist that really just broke me, you know? But yeah, it's an addiction. Um, I reference Mel Robbins a lot because it's just my favorite podcast ever. She did the cutest podcast with her daughter going through a breakup. And that's how the therapist said it. It's 30 days, no contact. Yeah. It's like an addiction. There's something that our body has when we hear their voice, when we see them. You know, I have a a 15 going on, 16-year-old, and it's funny to hear them talk or I just need closure.

Atlas 29:00

Oh my gosh. Yeah, totally.

Elizabeth 29:01

You don't need closure.

Atlas 29:02

mean, they talk about in addiction how there's no moderation in addiction. It's like you can't have a little bit and stay clean.

Elizabeth 29:07

Oh no, I can't.

Atlas 29:08

And I experienced that in my, um, last narcissistic relationship where it was like I kept telling myself, well, maybe I can be his friend. Maybe I can see him just once.

Elizabeth 29:16

Wow, You tried to be his friend.

Atlas 29:18

Yeah. At first. Which I think was a delusional, it was like I was still in this. Thought pattern that like he could heal and change and grow and that if I just could like stick around through a chapter being his friend, maybe it would still work out in the end or whatever. It's some form of delusion.

Elizabeth 29:35

Of course, 'cause we're fixers, we think we can fix them. It's something like 94% of narcissists never get help because you have to. Recognize that you have a problem to get help, and they're not capable of

Atlas 29:49

That's why like most psychologists will say that narcissism is one of the only things that like there really isn't a recovery plan for because it's like entrenched in the definition of narcissism that they're gonna be resistant to help or to acknowledging that they have a problem at all.

Elizabeth 30:04

I wanna be so open when I see people on TikTok, like I'm a recovering narcissist.

Atlas 30:09

I'm like, no, you're not.

Elizabeth 30:09

But sir, you're on TikTok talking about it. Glorifying Yep. Your horrible behavior.

Atlas 30:15

Yeah, Yeah,

Elizabeth 30:17

so, and, and I did, I did witness that once in my life with a client where the narcissist, um, went and got diagnosed, but it was for self-serving purposes. Mm. It was for, feel sorry for

Atlas 30:29

yeah, And that's a whole nother. Thing happening in society right now is like everyone wants a diagnosis.

Elizabeth 30:34

Yep. Yeah. It's really interesting. And I think, um, that's important to talk about too, is that not everybody is a narcissist. We can have narcissistic tendencies.

Atlas 30:43

Yes. I think that unfortunately, it's actually a very trendy word. Mm-hmm. And I see like way too often that like. you know, After a breakup, uh. a lover becomes a narcissist Yeah. because you're just like mad at them and it's like someone is not a narcissist because they broke up with you, or because they hurt your feelings or because you don't like how they handle conflict. Narcissism is like a real mental health disorder that needs to be diagnosed by a doctor. Yeah. You know? Um, and yeah, look into the, the list of what narcissism looks like and you can acknowledge if someone is embodying those tendencies.

Elizabeth 31:14

So what would be like, I know there's sometimes like seven, but could you give us like five maybe things to look out for? Yeah. When you think somebody is a narcissist. And remember, we are not here to diagnose anybody. Yeah. We are not therapist. Yes. We are just having a friendly conversation. Yeah. Between two coaches,

Atlas 31:31

Absolutely. Um, Yeah. I think one of the biggest ones is that oscillation between, um, inflated ego and victimhood.

Elizabeth 31:40

The bully and of the victim. Yes. The bully and the

Atlas 31:42

Exactly. Um, yeah, I think that is a really, really big and important one. and with that, like if you feel confused a lot, like you can't really tell what's real. Like there's a, a sense of gaslighting going on where you think something is one way and they're trying to convince you that it's not, but it doesn't really make sense. like's, so you start questioning your own reality.

Elizabeth 32:02

So let's talk about that real quick. I, I do wanna get back to the five. So what gaslighting does is that it actually causes brain damage. And a lot of people don't realize that. It's not like, oh, I can't. drink out of this straw anymore and I can't drive a car. No. It's the level of brain damage to, um, I'm gonna order this sandwich. And then you're like, wait, I don't like this. Wait, but I used to like this. Yeah. And then you're kind of confused as to why you're questioning yourselves. I would like to remind everybody listening that we have what is. The most beautiful tool inside of us, which is intuition. And it has been with us since the beginning of the first human. And it's there for a reason. And if you start to question that and you have to then ask your partner for everything, and it's almost like asking for permission. You are being gaslit. You are being gaslit.

Atlas 32:51

Yeah, yeah. And if there's just like a deep sense of confusion in what is real. Yeah, yeah.

Elizabeth 32:56

I mean, a good example of that is I like, I find something in my partner's phone and instead of them taking responsibility, it's like, why are you looking at my phone? You don't trust me. Oh, now I'm the bad guy because you looked in my phone and it and it's, it's like,

Atlas 33:10

Or like you just have trust issues because of the way that your mom treated you when you were a kid, and they put it all on.

Elizabeth 33:16

Remember when your mom did that thing too? And that's why you're in therapy? Therapy? I think you're projecting that on me.

Atlas 33:20

And it's like it totally.

Elizabeth 33:21

You saw the text. Yeah. You saw the naked picture, saw the real thing You saw the cheating, and then you start to question yourself and then you're like, maybe he wasn't cheating on me. And now I remember one fight with my narcissist ended in, um, he didn't think that I was financially responsible. Mm, mm-hmm. But the fight started because he, I, I believe him to have had like a drinking problem and he just stayed out all night drinking. But then it ended. This is how gas, this is how crazy gaslighting is that it ended with me thinking that I was being financially irresponsible.

Atlas 33:55

Yeah. Yeah. This is another really common thing in our relationship with narcissism, where you bring feedback to the table and by the end of the conversation you're apologizing

Elizabeth 34:04

You're apologizing to them. Okay, so we're looking out for victim or, but, or, um, Bully, bully, victim or bully. Gaslighting. Yeah. Confusion. Uhhuh, what else you got?

Atlas 34:17

Basically like refusal to take responsibility for your actions, turning it around on you, being really sensitive to anything perceived, like criticism. Um, yeah, like really extreme hypersensitivity, I would say as well.

Elizabeth 34:30

Yeah, that's a good one. Hypersensitivity. Yeah. There's no, I mean, if you really think about it this way. If you're a severely insecure person, you can't take

Atlas 34:40

Exactly. Exactly.

Elizabeth 34:42

It's confusing again because they have,

Atlas 34:45

sense of grand grandiose. Yeah.

Elizabeth 34:48

yeah, my nurses what used to say, I'm like the smartest person in the world. I'm like the smartest guy

Atlas 34:54

But then if you say anything to make them feel dumb, it's like they cannot take it. No.

Elizabeth 34:58

And then you as the victim start to play dumb because what happens if you're smarter than them, it starts a fight. What happens if you're this, it starts, and also another good thing to look at is, um. everything that they find in the beginning to be so awesome about you and all that is now an issue in your relationship.

Atlas 35:17

Yeah. And you know, the, so many of the things that I pay attention to now is like what you said, what I feel inside my body. Yes. If I feel like I'm constantly walking on eggshells. Another one that is elusive is like, if I feel super eager to please somebody.

Elizabeth 35:30

Yes. Oh my God.

Atlas 35:31

I'm immediately skeptical and that goes hand in hand with being really, um, feeling very hypervigilant about displeasing them. Yeah. 'cause you can tell that there, there's this, that little kid in me comes back of like, Ooh, I can't step in the wrong direction. Or I might be dealing with an explosion.

Elizabeth 35:49

That is a trauma response from our

Atlas 35:51

Totally.

Elizabeth 35:52

I just happen to find the perfect job as a life coach and a retreat host, because I have a plan A, B, C, and D. And if anything happens, I know if, if, it rains on the property, I know where to take the guests. And they never know. They think I have everything planned. I see it as my superpower now. I use all of these traumas and thank God I have a career out of it. Like you said, listening to my body when I was at the yoga retreat, I would find myself almost manipulating the, the, the conversation back to praising him so he wouldn't get mad at the whole group. So, I mean, this was a man that would slam doors. And he was hosting the retreat. Yeah. And, and I think one of the things that I found, like I'm playing a part 'cause that's how I felt. Now I'm playing a part is I remember, you know, going, you know, there's a lot of things I don't agree with. Like, I don't know if I wanna have an altar. And I remember looking right at him and going, I would never put you on my altar. You're not my guru. And his answer was, but a lot of people would. he also was, dating one of the students who was 23 years old and he was 50 and he was telling us the dangers of dating your students and the dangers of a single male. So you are telling us hypocrisy. The hypocrisy is crazy. And then he tells us that that's how he met his first wife. Another sign that I saw is that he proposed to her within three months.

Atlas 37:18

Yeah.

Elizabeth 37:18

So what does the narcissist do? They propose they buy a house with you or they get you pregnant because they want you to feel trapped. Financially reliant too. Yeah. So my narcissist, like I say, he's not the smartest. He got into a lease with me. Do you know how easy it is to break a

Atlas 37:32

Yes, sir. Nice

Elizabeth 37:35

Nice try. Also, I've never been one to financially need anything from anybody. And what I started learning about him is that in his past relationships, he did that to women where he would have them financially dependent on him. So that, and he was also very quick, um, to talk about as buying a property, to having a child, to, um, getting married. It was, it was too quick. Yeah. And then, you know, now I, I think back like. Am I a narcissist? Do I'm not though. Do I just think I'm amazing and everybody falls in love with me? No. I've just been attracting narcissists most of my life. One of the things I love about my partner now is he was very. Like take things slow, and that to me was weird.

Atlas 38:20

Yeah, because it's, it's something you're not used to. And this was something that my coaching certification really took me through was like We associate love with the love that we saw growing up, which is a love bomb. Yeah. Depending on what love we saw growing up, right? Mm-hmm. It's like, but whatever love you were around while your brain was forming. Like that's what you think love is. And so you keep reenacting that dynamic and it actually takes intentional work to step back and go, maybe love is taking things slow. Yeah. Instead of being love bombed, but then it's this really weird like rewiring your brain. And some people, it's like, I have clients come to me and they're like, well, I'm not getting love bombed. Does he even care?

Elizabeth 38:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's a real

Atlas 38:56

And I'm like, no. It's so precious that he's willing to move slowly with you.

Elizabeth 39:00

So precious because we want that honeymoon phase always. And then we like to move into the trauma and the drama and the cra like that seems

Atlas 39:07

Yeah,

Elizabeth 39:08

You know? I even had these thoughts and it's funny because I feel like, I don't know if you feel this, a lot of the time my clients are teaching me. It's something I'm going through Oh, for sure. That I need to see. Yeah. And I remember thinking. Is this boring? Is my boyfriend boring? And then I, you know, I was in such a process of rewiring where I knew, I, I knew for a fact I was loving wrong. I was in relationships wrong. And I remember one of my affirmations was, he is everything you have prayed for but didn't work for. He's everything you've prayed for, but you haven't worked for. Because I, I had it

Atlas 39:45

Yeah.

Elizabeth 39:46

when we were dating. In the very early stages, like the talking, I remember it was a full moon and I went outside and I just started like asking the universe. There was two people I was dating and one of 'em just looked like every guy I've ever dated, I.

Atlas 40:00

Yeah.

Elizabeth 40:01

it was him. And I just asked the universe like, you're gonna have to help me. Like I, I don't know what to do. We have to remove one. And the, the one that needed to be removed didn't call me for three days. There you go. And when he came back into town, I say. I had a conversation with the moon, and I just need you to know that I picked somebody else and the moon helped. And he was like, I totally, I respect that. It was so good. Good. But um, yeah, I had to rewire my whole brain. Mm-hmm. And now my favorite thing to do is to be as boring as possible. Yeah. And you know, even sometimes when we have our moments, me and my partner, I'm just like, look at us all cute. Yeah. Because it's so

Atlas 40:39

Yeah. And peaceful. Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

Elizabeth 40:42

And it's secure. And you know what the worst part about, um, kids that dealt with trauma is that at our court, it's what we want. It's just not familiar to us. Mm-hmm. And the familiar feels familiar.

Atlas 40:53

Yeah, absolutely. And the familiar sometimes feels less scary mm-hmm. Than the unknown. Yeah. Even if the unknown is potentially gonna be way better, it's like we'll stay in the pain that we're familiar with, with rather than risk something new.

Elizabeth 41:08

That's why so many women, um, it's so hard for them to leave and

Atlas 41:12

Go back after they do again.

Elizabeth 41:14

and then I get very upset because, um. When people don't understand that, you know, because I work with these women all the time, and when people don't understand well, she looks so successful and so yeah, there's way more going on. Nobody likes to be abused. No. Especially when it's physical. Nobody likes that. So what would you say are some of the things women can do if they recognize that they're in a toxic situation and they need to get out?

Atlas 41:40

Um, honestly, like first thing is get support. you can like, preferably professional support if you can get a therapist or even like call hotline, like talk to somebody that's trained in supporting you for going through abuse. Um, and then the other thing that I would just really encourage anyone to do is like, stay attuned to your experience. Stay with your nervous system. Stay with the emotions that are coming up because those are what are, will eventually hold you and guide you out if you try to shut down your experience and pretend it's not happening.

Elizabeth 42:11

Oh, that's what you mean by that? Yeah. So basically gaslighting

Atlas 42:13

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. If, if on top of it all, you're also telling yourself that everything's fine, you're also abandoning. your this.

Elizabeth 42:20

This is normal. This is normal behavior. Exactly. I'm the one who made him upset.

Atlas 42:25

So the first step is admitting to yourself that you're even in one. Yeah. You know? And being real with yourself about your partner's behavior and how you actually feel and not pretending that everything's fine.

Elizabeth 42:35

That's great advice. It actually, I mean, the more we talk about it, it's like a drug. I had somebody call me today and say, how can we get this person into treatment? I go, you don't get people into treatment. They have to recognize

Atlas 42:47

yeah, yeah,

Elizabeth 42:48

like no one's, no one locked me in a van and took me to treatment. I had to realize it for myself.

Atlas 42:53

totally. Um.

Elizabeth 42:54

that's incredible. I do wanna get to your poetry book. Yeah. Um, because you're not just a connection coach, you also do movement. And, and just like most of us creatives right? We don't just do one thing. Yeah. Um, when people ask like, what kind of coach I am, I'm like, so like I do reiki and talent. Yeah. like there's so many things that I do. But again, not everything is for everybody. So I love that you were able to put one of your passions on print. So tell us about it. It's called, there is a page in here about you, which by the way, it's so cute. I love this.

Atlas 43:27

yeah, yeah. This is a really precious project. Project to me. I started it years ago and just now finished it last December. Um, and Basically the inspiration behind it. I talked to individual people about things that they were going through, and I wrote each poem based on that. So each poem you're gonna love. This is named after Somebody Real that I talked to about the thing that,

Elizabeth 43:51

Do you ask permission? Yes. You're just naming poetry. if I I love that.

Atlas 43:56

And so, yeah, it's called, there's a Patient Here About You, because each poem is named and In addition to that, through writing it, it was like everyone I talked to was going through the same stuff. it was like so beautiful as a human to just see like, wow, we're all on the same journey. In a different costume, in a different place. Yes. You know? Um, and like as a writer it was so challenging 'cause I'm like, how do I write about the same thing in 20 different ways? Um, but it was just like so beautiful and it made me feel so connected to the human experience and

Elizabeth 44:29

Have you written your whole life?

Atlas 44:31

Have I written my whole life? I would say I discovered my passion for poetry through the slam poetry scene in college. Okay. Um, and I started like competing and it was just a really. I find articulation to be very therapeutic. The process of turning my internal world into something tangible that someone else can read Yeah. Is like really cathartic for me and totally plugs into my coaching work too. Like one of the things that I'm so passionate about is helping people learn how to communicate. I love that. 'cause we all All have this internal experience and we all like desire to be understood in it. Yeah. And some of us feel like we don't know how. and so poetry for me is this way of like. Constantly turning inward and giving a voice to the voiceless, you know? Ugh. And then through that process, I feel less alone and the reader feels less alone

Elizabeth 45:20

So where can people get your book?

Atlas 45:21

through my Instagram. I don't have a link or a website yet. Um, but my Instagram is just Atlas flow, and you can shoot me a DM on there. And I've got a hundred copies left to sell.

Elizabeth 45:31

That's awesome. and we'll definitely put that in our link in, you know, our everything for the podcast. I do wanna ask, um, how are you showing up to take care of yourself? Because I know. um, I'm constantly helping people figure out how to show up for themselves and take care of themselves. But as a coach, sometimes I slip. Um, so how do you do it as a coach?

Atlas 45:53

Yeah, I love that question and it's something that I'm digging into extra right now, and honestly, it's my creativity. Mm. It's, it's showing Up to my practices and having a form of like devotion in my life. I find that if I'm showing up to a practice every day, whether it be writing or movement, um, it nourishes the relationship that I have with myself. Uhhuh gives me space to check in and even know how I'm doing. Um, right now, I would say like my biggest practice is through movement.

Elizabeth 46:26

I love that.

Atlas 46:27

Yeah, it's definitely a, a pillar of my life. And that's so great. Connecting with my loved ones is,

Elizabeth 46:34

That's a great one.

Atlas 46:34

yeah. Yeah.

Elizabeth 46:35

And I don't think people realize that you can move in your kitchen. you can move in your living room 100%. You can move on the dance

Atlas 46:41

Yes.

Elizabeth 46:42

times in the grocery store. 'cause I'm 42 now and my jams are all at the grocery store apparently. Woo. It's like my whole playlist.

Atlas 46:48

Like what? It's funny. Yeah. Yeah. you can do it sitting in bed, you know?

Elizabeth 46:52

Yeah, you know what? We just, um, got over being really sick and I got back into like bed yoga. Mm-hmm. Because there wasn't a lot that I could do. I was feeling really dizzy and stuff and I was like, oh God, just in your own bed. And it's 10 minutes and it's all over YouTube and it's a great way to start and end your

Atlas 47:09

Totally.

Elizabeth 47:10

Really, it's just 10 minutes because we are such a. Go, go, go. Culture. We're always on our phones. We don't realize how much time we are not spending with ourselves, with ourselves. 100%.

Atlas 47:21

And then it's no wonder we get lost in our specific relationships because we're disconnected from ourselves entirely. We're not even noticing that we're anxious all day, every day, Unless you have a practice where you actually check in with yourself And go like wow, there's something going on within me that doesn't feel right, because we're not all there.

Elizabeth 47:36

A lot of us don't even know how to do that. No. Like society doesn't teach us how to listen to our bodies.

Atlas 47:41

not at all.

Elizabeth 47:42

You know, so, yeah, that's great. Um, I definitely wanna have you back and I would love to do like a movement thing and you can teach our listeners how to move, but I'm just so grateful that you came and thank you for everything that you taught us. Um, if you resonate with this episode, please share it. I mean, I think this is an episode that everyone should hear and everybody has like about five friends that you can send it to and be like, listen ma'am, I think you're going through this, or you um, you know. I don't think we can heal and grow unless we have grace for who we were. And you know, it took me a long time to realize that I can't keep being mad at that person because I didn't know better. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I didn't know that I was in a narcissistic relationship. You obviously knew you were being sucked into a cult, so we're very excited that. that didn't work. And you you're outta that Oh. Um, and yeah, I would love to have you back. So thank you so much for being

Atlas 48:35

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

Elizabeth Vajello 48:38

Okay. Now for the legal stuff, you know the important things that I have to say, this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. I'm just a life coach, not a licensed therapist. Not a licensed psychotherapist. This is not a substitute for advice from a doctor, therapist, or any other qualified expert. Got great. See you in the next episode.