#49: Who Counts As A Trauma Survivor When No One Sees You, with Ruth Clare

Some children live through severe developmental trauma in plain sight, then grow up to find they are missing from the research, the services, and the stories we tell about “who trauma happens to”. I sit down with Ruth Clare, author, TEDx speaker, and intergenerational trauma educator, to talk about what it means to grow up as the child of a traumatised Vietnam veteran in a home shaped by family violence and addiction, and why children of veterans are still treated like a footnote rather than a category that deserves targeted support. 

We unpack how many child safety and mental health systems quietly depend on a functional adult to report harm, advocate, and follow through, and what happens when every adult freezes or looks away. Ruth shares why compassion is easier when trauma looks like sadness, and why it becomes much harder when trauma shows up as anger, defiance, or volatility. From there, we turn to the places where support can actually be embedded, especially schools, and why an integrated model matters when children spend most of their time either at home or in the classroom. 

Ruth also brings practical nervous system science into the conversation, including the Dan Siegel hand brain model and the moment the thinking brain goes offline. We talk through accessible regulation tools, how neurodivergence can overlap with trauma-like reactivity, and why “strictness” can escalate threat responses rather than create learning. We finish on funding and reform: how to trial new programs like Parenting After Trauma and its 4R model, and why supporting teachers and carers is one of the fastest paths to safer kids. 

If this resonates, subscribe and share the episode with someone working with children, and leave a review so more people can find these conversations. What would change in your workplace if asking direct questions about safety was everyone’s job?

Ruth's Bio

Ruth Clare is an author, TEDx speaker and intergenerational trauma educator whose work bridges research, nervous system science and lived experience.

Author of three books, Ruth's award-winning memoir Enemy (Penguin, 2016), tells the story of growing up as the daughter of a traumatised Vietnam veteran in a home marked by family violence and addiction. Her TEDx talk has over 600,000 views. Ruth's work is dedicated to preventing children growing up in families like hers from falling through the gaps.

With a background in biochemistry and communications, Ruth translates complex trauma research into practical tools and psychoeducation for individuals, practitioners and organisations. She is the developer of Parenting After Trauma (PAT), a structured group program for trauma-affected parents in veteran and first responder families, built around her original Four R model: Recognition, Regulation, Repair, and Reframing.

Links:

Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/TheSecureStartPodcast
Podcast Blog Site: https://thesecurestartpodcast.com/

Disclaimer: Information reported by guests of this podcast is assumed to be accurate as stated. Podcast owner Colby Pearce is not responsible for any error of facts presented by podcast guests. In addition, unless otherwise specified, opinions expressed by guests of this podcast may not reflect those of the podcast owner, Colby Pearce. Finally, all references to case examples are anonymised to the extent that the actual case could not be identified, or are fictional but based on real-life examples for illustrative purposes.

Transcript

Opening And Why Children Stay Hidden

Colby 0:00

Welcome to the Secure Start podcast. Brought to you by the Secure Start Aura apps supporting trauma-informed care and practice at home and in school.

Ruth 0:17

Children of veterans, people don't even think of that as a category. Well, when you look at the domestic violence rates and the specific challenges and PTSD impact to parents and the amount of trauma that we receive, we actually are a specific category, just nobody talks about it. So much of the way that all of the systems are set up requires there to be a functional adult. For me, if no adult is describing the elephant in the room or asking direct questions of children because they're scared, they're sort of like, well, that's not my job. Or I'm used to feeling expert at something and I'm uncertain, which is a really big part of it. We're humans. We don't want to make it worse, we don't want to get it wrong. But if no adult is doing that because of their own discomfort, then you're putting it all on the channel to be. Oh, excuse me, can I just describe the situation that is a complete secret that I never let anybody know about, and I'm gonna act at it. It's way too much pressure to put on kids. If you've got a really highly traumatized family in lots of different ways, everyone is creeping around each other, trying not to make it worse. Making it more embedded into the places where children are definitely gonna be, I think does address some of that. I think it is much easier when when the trauma expresses itself as pain for people to access compassion. When your trauma expresses itself as anger, that is a lot more difficult for people to see as anything but an attack and something that needs to be stopped and reprimanded. You know, you cannot change a system that is broken or where gaps exist based on everyone wants the the model and the evidence. Well, I'm sorry, if you're addressing a gap that hasn't been addressed before, there is no model because it's a gap.

Guest Intro And Acknowledgement

Colby 2:27

Welcome to the Secure Star podcast. I'm Colby Pierce, and joining me for this episode is a leading voice for the experience of children and young people who were not or are not placed by child protection authorities, notwithstanding their experience of trauma at home. Before I introduce my guests, I'd just like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands that I come to you from, the Ghana people of the Adelaide Plains, and acknowledge the continuing connection the living Ghana people feel to land, waters, culture, and community. I'd also like to pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging. My guest this episode is Ruth Clare. Ruth is an author, TEDx speaker, and intergenerational trauma educator whose work bridges research, nervous system science, and lived experience. Author of three books, Ruth's award-winning memoir, Enemy, tells the story of growing up as the daughter of a traumatized Vietnam veteran in a home marked by family violence and addiction. Her TEDx talk has over 600,000 views. Ruth's work is dedicated to preventing children growing up in families like hers from falling through the gaps. With a background in biochemistry and communications, Ruth translates complex trauma research into practical tools and psychoeducation for individuals, practitioners, and organisations. Ruth is the developer of Parenting After Trauma, a structured group program for trauma-affected parents in veteran and first responder families, built around her original 4R model: recognition, regulation, repair, and reframing. So welcome, Ruth, to the Secure Start podcast. It's it's really nice to have you here, and it's nice to have someone who's in a similar time zone as me as well.

Growing Up With A Traumatised Veteran

Ruth 4:51

Well, thank you so much for having me as a guest, Colby. I really appreciate it.

Colby 4:56

So tell us a little bit uh about you and the work that you do.

Ruth 5:04

So I guess the work that I do related to being on this podcast and in this place right now began when I published a memoir with Penguin in 2016 called Enemy, which is about my experience growing up as the child of a traumatized Vietnam veteran and the impact that my dad's trauma had on us as a family. And I didn't start out being an author. I'm a copywriter, so writing is my natural jam, but I just kept waiting for some someone else to write a book about the experience that I was having. I found, you know, I loved I love reading memoir. And, you know, Angela's Ashes, you've got, you know, the the that was my sort of one of my gateway drugs, but I I like reading books about people who've had similarly traumatic childhoods because it normalizes, it makes me feel less alone in that experience. And it began when I was pregnant with my first child. I started to really think, what happened to my dad that he could possibly have behaved the way he did as a parent. Something happened inside of him to have made that a possibility because it felt impossible for me to even wrap my head around that. And because we grew up without my dad ever talking about the Vietnam War, I didn't have that as a real context. He sort of said, I went to Vietnam. He had some army stuff around the house, but it was never spoken about. And I started to become really curious about how much of an impact did that have. Is what happened in my family. There was a lot of domestic violence, a lot of controlling behavior, my mother became an alcoholic. You know, there was a lot of ramifications of my dad's trauma spilling out into us. And um he so I I started exploring um the Vietnam War. And I started looking around for, well, surely there'll be books by other children of veterans. And what I found is that there is literally no books, no research, no study done on children of veterans, which felt kind of crazy to me. And I I was really just looking to go, am I alone? Is this a pattern? And I started to, it was when I started to do the research that I I sort of said that well, there we there really isn't very much research on this at all. And so that was the beginning entry point to sort of trying to start a conversation that hadn't been had about the generational impacts of military experience. And since that time Enemy got published, you know, I I did quite a bit of media around it at the time. I got on conversations with Richard Feidelov, but I was trying to kind of start a conversation or get in there, get amongst it, you know, how do we do something about this? How do we know more about this? And I found it really difficult to actually kind of break into systems and kind of go, why are you guys not more interested in this? Because I'm your target market. I'm I'm I'm I'm literally what happened here, and yet nobody, you know, it's like I do outreach. And then I started to just go through, I went through a lot of, I've been through a lot of lulls. I'm a speaker as well, so I do quite a lot of keynote speaking and 10x talks and whatever. But it still feels like what I'm wanting to do is actually help to change the situation, and and to do that means to talk about it, understand it, look at it from different angles, look at where gaps exist, know more about it. And children of veterans being so unknown in the veteran landscape means that we are so erased as thinking of ourselves as a category of people, yeah, that even trying to go, children of veterans, people don't even think of that that as a category. I've had people sort of go, that's not a category of people. I'm like, well, when you look at the domestic violence rates and the specific challenges and PTSD impact to parents and the amount of trauma that we receive, we actually are a specific category, just nobody talks about it. So a lot of my work has been about, I now sit on like a Monash University steering committee investigating domestic violence in veteran families. A recent finding found that 45% domestic violence rates in veteran families have transitioned veteran families. And once you're in that world, because I'm kind of a curiosity-led person and a thinker and a writer, it just leads me down an enormous number of wormholes of trying to solve a really complex problem. And a lot of my drive is about looking at the problem from lots of different angles and trying to help drive change to make it better, to sort of notice. And so from that, I've I've just created a peer-led program that has been from my experience as a I have complex PTSD from my my childhood. And I keep reading reports where they say, Oh, there's no research on children of veterans and there's no parenting support for veteran and first responder families. So I'm like, so did someone want to get making a program on that? And so I just keep it's the same as with writing enemy. I'm like, I read a quote once that said, if there's a book that you want to read and it hasn't been written yet, then you should write it.

Colby 10:59

Yes.

Ruth 11:01

And it's the same thing. I'm going, all right, well, this might not be perfect, but can we get something happening? Because I know as a PTSD-impacted parent myself, even though I came in going, how could anyone possibly think of their children that way? I was shocked by how much rage I felt toward my own son. He went through a stage of hitting me. It's one of the reasons that I ended up getting to the end of writing my first book, is I couldn't believe how much of the cortisol adrenaline-charged stuff that happens inside your body when you're getting actively triggered. Your thinking brain is offline. And so that's led me down a lot of wormholes on how the nervous system works, how, because I've done a science degree, so I'm interested in how the brain works, how the and then practical techniques that I wish I'd had at the beginning that anyone can learn. I'm interested in making it all accessible, that not everyone's going to access therapy, and you don't have to open up all your trauma, but you need to calm the hell down and walk the hell away. You do need to do those two things. So that's sort of a roundabout way of my journey into where I am now.

The Gap For Children Who Stay

Colby 12:16

Yes, yeah. And I think uh what I understand from of your your background, the life that you've had, um you are also in a group of people that I have turned my mind to um quite regularly, you know, my background being 30 plus years working in child protection, working in and interfacing with child protection, out-of-home care and related endeavors in the community. Um and we we spend a lot of time, those of us who work in this space, thinking about, thought, writing about, treating, assessing, doing all of our work with children and young people who uh are removed from home and placed in out-of-home care. And uh I've always worked uh with disadvantaged communities, and I've always been aware of, and I'm not just poverty is is in is quite closely linked to um um difficulties of childhood or challenges of childhood, adversity in childhood. But so I've always kind of had in the back of my mind there is a population of children and young people here who have had experienced quite a lot of adversity in growing up, including relational adversity as well as the poverty and other uh adversity factors who aren't talked about very much and aren't, as you described, struggle to whether whether they struggle to break in or whether we they they're not, they've forgotten, we've forgotten to ask them. It's the children who stayed at home, but but their experience was not dissimilar. Um, in fact, if it may even have been remarkably the same as the children who were removed and and entered out of home care. And I wonder what your thoughts are about that. I mean, it's you it seems like you your own lived experience of this is that there is that population of children and young people who weren't removed by child protection authorities who are going through very similar experiences. Um how does that what's your experience of um how the childhood trauma community and society perhaps more generally have responded to you?

Asking The Questions Adults Avoid

Ruth 14:48

What I think is interesting on what you're saying is that so much of the way that all of the systems are set up requires there to be a functional adult. Whether that is you know, a parent, parent is often an assumption that they would be reporting that child protection or they would that they're actively outreaching, or that there's a a system response, you know, school, a teacher, a teacher who's really highly attuned, finding something, asking, raising questions. There's a there's an extended family, you know. Oh, I've noticed this, I'm observing my sister or my brother, or my experience was my dad, Vietnam veteran, came back traumatized in the dead of night, told not to talk about anything, move on with your life. That was the end of the support he received. My mother, you know, when when dad was home, she was just frozen, she was in a total freeze state for most of her life, and I don't know how much of that came with her prior to my dad or how much was in response to him. Most of dad's violence was directed towards us children. It was it didn't fit the pattern, and so every time I see the pattern, it's like, oh, the man hits the woman. That's not wasn't my experience. My experience was my my siblings and I were extremely violently punished for every tiny thing we did, and it was out of nowhere for no reason. Mum never intervened. When my dad left, I remember, and uh, this is all stuff I sort of describe in Enemy, but when when my dad left, I remember having this moment where I in my head was looking around, you know, you're looking around, what are we meant to do? You're watching your dad leave, you're not quite sure. And then in my head a song started, ding dong, the witch is dead, which old witch, the wicked witch. That was what I was just going, oh my god, this is gonna be amazing. Because the tension will be out of the house. You know, anytime dad had gone away for fishing trips, it felt like, oh my god, we're living in a different house. And I thought, chill, it's all gonna be good now. And pretty much a week after he left, I came home and I heard this really weird sound in the house, and sort of because obviously very hyper-vigilant by this stage, I'd learnt, you know, any tiny noise, I was very, very tuned into anything danger, danger. Found my mum on a couch sobbing, really drunk, and I was like, oh, okay. I'd never seen mum drunk like that, and that just began an entirely new journey of mum was drunk or unconscious all of the time. My dad came back one night, tried to kill mum. I'd had to go and call the police, we got taken to a women's shelter. Like a lot of stuff was happening in our house that the police didn't ask us what had happened, didn't check in, didn't didn't provide services. At school, I told a teacher that we'd stayed at a women's, you know, I'd I'd eaten a box of chocolates that was meant to be charity chocolates while I was at the women's shelter, and I kind of told a lie. Um but I also did that thing that kids often do, which is uh Miss, um, sorry, my dad tried to kill my mum on the weekend and we stayed at a women's shelter, and while we were there, um someone I someone stole a box of chocolates I was meant to sell. Do I have to give you any money for them? And that feels like it's all wrapped up in this I'm trying to, and I was definitely trying to get out of paying money for the chocolates, but part of me was just going, what will the response be? And the response was absolutely nothing. She didn't ask me if I was okay, she just froze and went and and I said, So do I have to give you any money for the chocolates? And she went, No. And that was the extent of that. So there is a notion, and I and I um, you know, I grew up in Rockhampton, Rockhampton High, I think ranked lowest in the state. For we it was not a great school. Um, so you've got rural, you know, we were on the sole parents' pension, like we had all we ticked every box, like all of the adverse childhood experiences. That's you know, apart from a person going to prison. That's that was the only thing that didn't happen to me as a child. And there is an assumption, and and I I find people doing do it to me all of the time in response to my story. Oh, but there must have been a this, but there must have been literally no, there wasn't. And we'd moved away from Brisbane where the grandparents were. But also, you know, in our family, we would come down back down to to Brisbane, and they all knew Dad had changed, but they knew his story, right? That's his their son. They knew that he came back changed from the Vietnam War. And there's an as even they did see moments where dad was had lost his nana at us and had hit us in a really violent, unnecessary way in front of them that was that makes it extremely more humiliating. And the fact that nobody comes and comforts you. You know, you're used to not being comforted by your mum, but then the fact that nobody in your extended family contextualizes or comforts, you're left completely alone to make up your and it feels like endorsement. And so you just feel so alone, like nobody actually cares about you at all. And the idea that there I know that there are other people who have been through similar things to me, yeah, and I think that for me that there's uh there's an expectation of outreach as opposed to um a system where it's obvious for children how to how to advocate how you know, like people actively asking. I had to do a uh a talk at the Royal Children's Hospital for Domestic Violence Week and I was talking to the domestic violence team, and one of the things they said was they wanted because the a lot of the the people who see and ex are exposed to children, especially in a system like that, where it's a it's a health concern, right? A child per fortnight is in Australia, is killed by a parent. People who are in domestic violence relationships, even though we don't discuss the physical violence that a lot of children receive, and we call it oh, they're witnesses, and we have all of this stuff. There's there's a lot of evidence that shows actually they're usually often also victims, and they're far more likely to get a brain injury because of the vulnerability of their brains. What they were talking about was in that system, the the doctors and the frontline people or the nurses, they think it's the social worker job only to be asking the questions.

Colby 22:34

Yeah.

Ruth 22:36

And what they were trying to encourage me to do was to get the everyone to kind of know it's actually everyone's job to kind of ask the questions. Because for me, if no adult is describing the elephant in the room or asking direct questions of children because they're scared, they're sort of like, well, that's not my job, or I'm used to feeling expert at something and I'm uncertain, which is a really big part of it. We're humans. We don't want to make it worse, we don't want to get it wrong. But if no adult is doing that because of their own discomfort, then you're putting it all on the child to be, oh, excuse me, can I just describe the situation that is a complete secret that I never let anybody know about and I'm gonna activate it's way too much pressure to put on kids that they're gonna be doing it. So that for me is is part of the way that it happens, is there's I think we discount, and I know this as an adult now where you're in a situation where you want to call I've I have called people out because I have like if something's happening to children, it's really hard for me to not sort of go, hey, I'm just not sure. Because I want I want to know that I have tried, but man, people don't like those conversations. It blows up relations, you know, it blows up relationships. And if you if you've got a really highly traumatized family in lots of different ways, everyone is creeping around each other, trying not to make it worse. There's a lot of creeping around trying not to make it worse.

Colby 24:17

Yeah, which means there's a lot of creeping around not doing anything to make it better.

Ruth 24:24

Yeah. And and the, you know, specifically in my family, with I think the you know, I've done a lot of of research, I guess, in the in a veteran and first responder space, more veteran-led, but the idea of reaching out for help, admitting vulnerability, is goes against a lot of military training and your identity. And so it's a really it's it's an additional barrier, I guess, for like a especially it's usually um a male in a violence context, reaching out for help. So I think that's just as another layer to but somebody like my mum. So I now sit on a few lived experience committees and and looking at how we provide social support avenues, how you reach people who are like my family. How do you reach someone who is unconscious in a house a lot of the time, drunk, hiding themselves away, full of shame, not reaching out to community? It's it's a really complicated thing to do.

Colby 25:37

There's a lot in there, Ruth, in in what you're talking about. And there's been a number of questions that have come through my mind, and because of my age, they've gone out of my mind again. But they they may well, they they may well come back. Uh hopefully they do. Um, but I in listening to you talk about your experience, I guess. The what one of the things that I that I think is is quite noteworthy is that you you refer to yourself as having lived experience of growing up with family and relational trauma and physical trauma and emotional trauma. Um I wonder how how you what what has been your experience uh when you when you speak to people about trauma in a in I guess a field that's very much, particularly when you're talking about childhood trauma, is is saturated with saturated is probably not the kindest word, but is is very much oriented to the children who were removed.

Ruth 26:46

Yeah, it's I have to say it is one of the things that continues to drive me to speak out, is that I feel completely overlooked. Yeah. And I know that yes, that's my personal experience, but I know there are other people like me, and it is really hard to talk about this stuff, and I am one of the few people who actually talk about it, and I think that it is because I've had more therapy than you can poke a stick at, and so I have processed it and looked at it, and I've also I guess I've always been kind of I'm the one in my family, I'm I'm a middle child, but I'm certainly the one I'm the one who goes and calls the police, I'm the one who stands up to my dad, I'm the one who calls things out. And for a long time I judged myself for being too like my father because I was in a fawn response for a very long time, just trying to people please stepping into going, it's okay for me to challenge, it's okay for me to say things that make people uncomfortable when you've spent your entire life vigilantly trying to not upset people because it's dangerous. The leap between coming from there to coming from there, it's a very large one. And but I feel so many times that nobody is interested in this story, nobody wants to hear it. People would prefer that you just go away a lot of the times because it makes them uncomfortable or it it it points out something they don't want to see, and I just don't really feel like there's even a place for me in the system, and even now as an adult, where I'm like, I have things that insights that I might be able to share with you. I don't I still feel even though there has been progress in the way that we value lived experience, and I and I do sit in a couple of roles based on that, I still very much feel like the system is like, great, tell us your story. Oh, but where the experts will take it from here. And I'm like, well, you're a type of expert.

Colby 29:27

It's interesting because the when I heat listen to you talk about that, I get uh I feel a little bit outraged because um it sounds to me like your lived experience is very much pigeonholed into this is the lit this is the lived experience of a child who grew up in a home where there was domestic violence. Yeah. And as opposed to this is a child who experienced developmental trauma, uh, they weren't safe in the home that they were in, and they and they were placed into a system. Um I wonder what role I w I would there's a number of things that I wonder about, but the similar you've done a lot of research. What what are the similarities and differences from your perspective between those um young people who go into out-of-home care versus those who don't, those who stay at home as as you did?

Ruth 30:30

The most striking thing I notice is that the people who haven't been part of the system literally do not exist in the literature. So me actually trying to research others like me, it is an impossible task because I do not encounter in the literature people that like me. Because we are we have been invisible from the start, yes, and we remain invisible, yes. And and there is a very strange concept I find in in the research world, which and research informs a lot of the programs and blah blah blah, and education, the way people are taught about things, the the things that are developed is that when you're studying children, they must be under 18 years of age. Whereas when we know adverse childhood experiences have lifelong impacts, why are we not more interested in adults who grew up in that situation? Because I can tell you those experiences are fresh. I've done a lot of work, but that child is still inside of me. And the idea that I don't have insights to offer now, and I'm not worthy of research now. You look, you try and find any research on people like me, it doesn't exist. Or if you do, please tell me where it is.

Lived Experience Versus The System

Colby 32:10

Yeah, I guess so. There's a couple of things. One is yes, as as a young person who experienced the adversity that you did, that was hidden. That was that was almost, I guess, systematically hidden, maybe not be the right way, but it it was hidden. Whereas the children who come into care, it's it's you know, the system takes over responsibility for them, it's much less hidden. But and and you've kind of remained hidden right through into adulthood, and I and and so your experience is not um acknowledged. But I guess the reason why I'm harping on this point a little bit, and and part of big part of the reason why I wanted you to come um on to this podcast is is because developmental trauma in childhood is broader than, is a bigger problem than the children who come into care, into out-of-home care. Yeah. We know, for example, that um there are two, they're kind of like two populations of kinship carer. There's what we what depend it it changes the title from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but there's statutory or formal kinship carers who are the the the grandparents, the aunts and uncles, the the kin who take on the care of a child who has had the local child protection authorities, has come to the notice of the local child protection authorities. And then we have this other group, which is actually a larger group, I think, of um informal kinship carers. And they're the they're the ones who who it hasn't necessarily been the case that that child protection authorities have gotten involved and have organized the placement. That they they have taken on the care of a child who um who who couldn't safely be cared for at home with mum and or dad. So I think we that my point is, and my point is having myself been very interested in kinship carers, is that um the problem is is much is larger than than we we think it is in terms of developmental trauma. And perhaps we we don't we don't cater. Certainly informal kinship carers will say the support for them is is nothing compared to those who where there's um where there's been statutory involvement. Um we need to be turning, I think, our minds to this broader group of of young people who are hidden. And I the the the hidden is such a powerful word, I think, in the context of what you describe, which is one of not mattering. Yeah. Being hit in front of being hit, being dressed down, whatever, in a in a over-the-top manner, in front of other adults who you would reasonably, society would reasonably expect would step in, and um but but that didn't happen. And your own experience of that was one of I think um of not mattering in those moments. And and so I think there's there's a bigger problem that we need to turn our mind to. We need to be more inclusive of the children who l who stayed at home. Um I also think that there's there's there's really stark similarities in the developmental psychological um impacts and outcomes for the for though for for those who stayed at home as well as those who went in who experienced statutory intervention.

Ruth 36:09

So for me, yeah, I think I 100% agree. I I had a couple of thoughts related to what you said, and again they might leave, so I'm gonna sta try and stay on on the topic. For me, my yes, my dad, you know, the the the the direct violence was one thread, but never having a mother who even softened quietly afterwards spoke to me. None of those kind of things that might have allowed me to have I was left, you know, my first memory at three years old was of literally being chased and hit over and over again. So it's like I never had a chance for my brain to develop one second without that being, you know, part of how my neurology formed. And so I was left from a very young age to make up my own conclusions about what was happening. And it was always that there was something wrong with me, there's something wrong with me, I need to be better, I need to be better, which drove me to become, you know, quite a big perfectionist, which created a shield, which meant that everybody doesn't see me because I'm like a high performing student and I'm, you know, I look well presented, and I'm, you know, because I'm just like you've got to be perfect, you can never make mistakes, it's always a you know, that's the way that I tried to stay ahead of the situation. And so for me, one of the and I know not everybody is I loved school, and so even though I didn't have uh a a teacher or a mentor at the school who was offering me direct help the framing of a place where I did what I was told and tried hard and got an A on a report, and teachers celebrated me, and that I became school captain of my primary school, and it just gave me an alternative view of what was possible, and it that gave me a context of understanding of well, these people seem to think I'm okay, maybe I'm not the piece of rubbish, and so in my head, my dad didn't didn't value education and was like, you know, I'd bring home uh all A's on my report, and he'd be like, I'm like, okay, well, what does mate? You know, that's like so I had like a so it gave me a uh a way of of holding on to some shred of self-esteem, I guess.

Colby 39:07

Yeah.

Ruth 39:10

But what you were saying before about the informal kinship of carers, I think that is absolutely true. The way that they do education campaigns, the way that they there should be whatever support is available to carers of any sort, you know, there should be, if you are doing this, you are also entitled to all of this support. Like it should that's a no-brainer, right?

Colby 39:46

The children are the same, is the point I'm making. Yeah.

Ruth 39:51

The children are exactly the same. And in terms of I feel very lucky that you know, school came very naturally to me. I was just it was just like, oh my god, this is brilliant. What you learn stuff and it goes in, and I just loved learning. And it felt like a safe, it was like, oh, the bell goes at this time. Look at this. Oh, you have to behave, you know, relatively nicely to me. So but I know a lot of kids don't necessarily they find that they are they struggle at school in a different way to what I did. But the and I understand that that teachers are under a lot of pressure, but for me, I think we need to review throw the whole education concept out the window and look at is learning all of this stuff in this particular way what produces the best outcomes for children generally? If not, maybe we can do a bit of that education and then part of the system can be devoted to social support, social learning, understanding about this, and then then you're giving the skills that the kids can use for themselves to help, or let them know about services that and allow children because they're they're likely going to be the ones who are having to do the outreach for themselves. I've had to do it all for myself. And yes, that is bad, and obviously it would be more ideal if there were parents, but that was empowering also in a way. I knew that I could do it for myself and I would not let it screw you. I will do it for myself. And so, you know, that whole concept of the recovery model where we're trying to empower people, you know, the the the way the system is like, well, if you've got to have a parent, oh look, we don't. Can we just go from some of us won't? What can we do? Like, don't leave the kids without support because the and you know, we know that the system is under so much pressure, you know, find the kinship carers, you know, out of home. We know that there's problems with the whole system. Don't leave the kids without support. Like, just assume that some of them will be like me and not have the people. What can we do? How do how do we change? I just think we if we if we could prioritize more of that stuff, not just the unending respectful relationship badgering that my children have received because that's where the funding is. Change the whole there's there's some schools that that do it well. There's a school in in Carlton that I've been to that has their approach, they have it because they have got a a really big refugee population from highly traumatized things, a lot of kids with PTSD, you know, and and so a lot of reactive behavior in classrooms. Those kids on on site, it's like that is not treated like you're a naughty child behaving badly and disrupting the learning of others. It's like, hey, just go and just go and take a little time out. There's a timeout place that any time they can go and just calm and regulate, learn that it's okay for them, that there's a safe place, have that support. They also have on that in that in that school, they have um support services for the parents who are, you know, often speak English as a second language, and so you know, but they're they have a different model of support, and not every child is gonna need it, but some children do. And so I think it just having a more generalized approach, assume that that is, and that is a place that you at least some of the children will be helped, and it's not gonna get everyone, we're not gonna ever create a perfect society, but making it more embedded into the places where children are definitely going to be, I think does address some of that.

Colby 43:46

That is the point, isn't it? Like if it's not going to happen at school, where is it going to be? I mean, the if you if you strip it back, the idea that that child protection services are just going to pick children up that are uh at risk, uh, that are in In adverse circumstances that that, as you say, relies on an adult reporting in. Yeah. Because they're not gonna go, they don't go around um in you know looking for children to who are who are in adverse circumstances. Um if it doesn't happen at school, then yeah, then where else would it be? Now there's all there's been a um um over the course of my career, I've heard quite often about how schools are a place of learning. Yeah, the this the the children come to school to learn, it's an educational environment. These are the the it's not a place, particularly this is because schools are under so much pressure, right? Teachers are under so much pressure. We we want to cut compartmentalize off certain aspects of a child's experience during the day and say, well, that's that's a a social, that's a family, that's a mental health and well-being problem. That's not what schools exist for. But children spend so much time at school, you know, they they spend their time at home and at school primarily in ordinary circumstances. Um so I wonder, have you do you you've you have your own children who've gone through schooling, um, you you work in this space, you advocate in this space. Have you have you seen a change in the way and you've mentioned the school in Carlton, but why more widely, have you seen a change in the way schools are tackling this issue?

Ruth 45:44

Well, like I've I've done quite a lot of speaking um at schools, so have have gone into a lot of environments, but that's the way that I earn money, and so mostly the schools that pay me are private schools. Because they're the only ones who have money to pay a person like me. And really, ideally, what I would like is to be going to places like Rockhampton and and to kids who are literally living through what I live through and feel like the world does not understand what the hell they're talking about, that it doesn't feel like there is a place for us, that it doesn't feel like you because for me what I find interesting about the concept of of trigger warnings, you know, this is uh something that I you know a lot of times depending on on who you're talking to, they they they're like, Oh, well, let's let's not trigger people. I'm like, right? Am I managing their triggers? Are your cognitive dissonance and you don't want to hear the story? Is it the people in the audience who are like me who are going to be triggered, or the people who aren't like me who don't like to hear it? And for me, the bigger risk is for the kids to feel like they are the only ones going through it. The far bigger risk, and that is what it felt like to me, is that there is nobody here like me. This is shameful. I have to, that is what people are meant to be like. You see everything on TV, you know what families are meant to be like. It's not like your family, and so you feel that you're in the shadow of society that no one wants to look at.

Colby 47:25

Yeah, I wonder what needs I I've got some ideas, but I wonder, I'm interested in your thoughts about what needs to change for adults, particularly adults who come into contact with children in a professional role, for them to be able to be more sensitive to and and responsive to, open to the experience of the child. What do you think? What do you think needs to happen?

Ruth 47:53

I want to hear what you say first. I want I'm interested because I think about it from a certain way, but I'm I always like learning. So I would like to hear what you say, Colby.

Colby 48:02

I think that um the issue is one of supervision and support for adults. I think that the adults, so we're talking, you know, um teachers at the moment, um, but across our systems, including in our child protection system, and you could I could say particularly in my in our child protection systems, it has been a recurrent a recurrent theme with this podcast, which has been and uh aligned with my own perception that the adults struggle to hold on to the distress of the child. The adults struggle to op be open to and to hold on to the the distress, the the trauma of the child. Um one of the ways you so they shut it down. One of the ways they do that is to just focus on the behaviour as as challenging behavior. We're not we're not gonna I can't think past why the child is behaving the way they are because that'll upset me more so than their child even their challenging behavior is upsetting me or um or disrupting the class or or whatever it is the case may be. So I I think um we can roll out as much education as we like, and we do to these adults uh uh about how they need to look past the behaviour and ask certain questions and consider certain things, but until they feel able to hold on to the pain of the child, then we've got we've got a problem with them having the capacity to do that.

Ruth 49:51

And I think we have to remember that a lot of people are also adult adult versions of those children, yeah, and they have not processed their own stuff from their pasts, and so a lot of time, yes, you go, Well, how be be that for this child, they've never been it for themselves. So how can they possibly do that for another person? You literally cannot. If your entire approach is don't talk about it, this is uncomfortable, the emotion has got to a point where it is I spend my entire life suppressing my own feelings and responses, and but and so if you push me outside of that comfort zone, then I need to, and so it doesn't sort of the power differential makes it a larger issue with with an adult child relationship because you can be more unhinged with children because they're not gonna, you're not held to the same account in that relationship. Often the child will not sort of dob on the child will not dob on adults, they will put up with stuff because they they they're not they know that that that person has authority over them, and so they're not gonna necessarily go, that person was inappropriate in the way that they spoke to me and did. They don't have that context, and depending on the age, especially, they don't have the the concept of mind, they don't all of the stuff. So I think that the human side of it needs to be acknowledged that most people haven't done the kind of work they need to hold that, and so for me, it going back to what you said previously about school's a place for education, and you know, so so say for instance we're talking about a teacher and they're like, I'm here to teach them maths, bro. I am not here to hold the blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, and that is why I think a more integrated care model, because they might not have that, you know, you can't go, well, everyone, every teacher then needs to go and also get therapy on their own childhood wounds so that they're more able to. Oh my god, wouldn't we love if just everyone mandated went out and got some therapy and dealt with all their crap? A lot less stuff would happen in the world if that happened. But given what we've got, just having a model where okay, this child is being disruptive, and for not for it to be a non-shaming, it's not like off you go to the psycho ward, you know, that that person, you're the weirdo. That person, it just becomes like a much more oh, we need to for me the nervous system regulation model. Uh do you know much about that? Is have any of your guests sort of spoken about that, you know, the whole the so do you know the the hand brain model of of and you're flipping your lid vibes?

Nervous System Skills For Regulation

Colby 52:49

I do, and it's a Dan Siegel, yeah, Dan Siegel, yes, model, but uh no one has spoken about it yet, so I'm happy for you to speak to it.

Ruth 52:58

Okay, so so this is a foundational part of of all of the work I do because it has totally flipped my entire understanding of what is happening for me and for kids, and that these are the practical things that anyone can learn, even if they haven't dealt with anything. Quick science lesson. So the hand brain model by Dan Siegel is this is your spinal cord, in here is your limbic brain, this is your amygdala, which is the smoke detector, this is your thinking brain. In a normal situation, your brain is like that. The role of the amygdala is to be constantly scanning your environment for danger. It's a process that is happening unconsciously, it's happening all of the time, 24 hours a day. It's why you hear a crack behind you, and before you notice anything's happened, your heart might start racing. You know, if you're walking in a dark street. When you have had a lot of trauma, this guy has had to be working a lot. As soon as it detects danger, it flips off the thinking part of your brain, so your executive function where you're reasonable and rational, and you're operating operating now in a lower part of your brain, which is all instinct and emotional and you know, run away. So it's the fight, fly freeze, fawn response. That means your entire physiology changes. You are not in your thinking brain, you have moved into a body-based response. So you are ready to run away from danger or fight a person. We do this all the time, and a lot of our emotional reactivity comes from this space. Anyone who is in this mode as opposed to this mode is not making great choices. No. So instead of trying to apply cognitive processes of oh, now you this has happened, now you need to do this, you need to do that, you need to do um, I'm sorry, but uh my my thinking brain is not online. I cannot do you need to you need to do some work first. There is a there is a step before that and if we can all learn the step before, which is firstly notice that it has happened. Notice that your thinking brain has gone offline. Breathe. Feel your feet in your shoes, come back to the moment. Take some time to regulate your system. W walk away if you need to do it. Pay attention to what is in your surroundings. Just feel your you know, I like I when I do my speaking, instead of doing trigger warnings, I teach people the process of let's just feel your feet in your shoes, come back. If you feel anything that has charged you, take a breath. Come back to your body. Have a moment of pause. If that's too hard and you're finding that you just you know, because what happens is then you might start thinking and you're arguing every time you do it, it flips it. It flips, and so you've got to start again. You know, there there is some evidence and it's not not robust, but I I always track and experiment with with processes and and techniques. Um because I've did a biochemistry degree, I I like the the experimentation approach. I do not believe that I'm always curious, I will give anything a go. And there's some science that has come out that says actually an emotional response takes 90 seconds. And as somebody who has, you know, lived steeped in a lot of emotions where you're going, well, I've been crying for two days, so it doesn't feel like 90 seconds, feels like a lot longer than that. And the way that I understand it in context of more of a mindfulness and body-based approach is what happens is that yes, you have the original 90 seconds, and but then you think, and then you start ruminating, or you're arguing, or you tell another story, and you and I know that I've spoken to you briefly that that you try and focus instead of going back over old terrain again and again and again and again, you're talking more present moment and forward thinking. And for me, that is one of the things that yes, I do think that that there needs to be excavation of past, and you know, certainly some of my most profound healing has happened in relationship with a a psychotherapy. I was in, you know, intense psychotherapy for seven years. I could have bought a house with the amount of money I've spent on that. Um and but and that process that process was really for me more about forming an attachment with another person who I trusted and and and finding a safe person. Not everyone's gonna want to do that work. I found it kind of interesting. But everybody can do let's learn to come back to the present moment. That thought is not, I can, you know, that process of learning to observe your thoughts, go, oh, stop feeding it. Okay, what can I hear? What can I feel? What can I smell? What can I taste? What can I touch? And if you'll find you're thinking, this is what I this is how I supercharge it, is if my thoughts are really, really loud up there and it's really hard for me, you know, it's like I I can barely, my my thoughts are so active that I can't even feel my body, then you have to amp it up. Do do some ex do some exercise. Like, like you've got to complete the cycle of your your fight flight freeze response has been activated. Complete the cycle. I will be punching things, I will be do, you know, I will get the energy out. And then if it's still hard, then I start to go, okay, and it's really hard to connect with your senses because it's so loud up there. I will have essential oils, I will wrap myself in, I will do stuff so that the sensory you splash yourself with cold water, go into things so that you cannot fight, you intensify your sensory so that then you can fight, and then you can breathe, and then you can ground and then you can move through. That for me has been like it's a large part of the underlying thread of what I teach because it's for me, it's accessible. You don't have to do you don't have to have any money to do it. You don't have to have all you need to do is breathe and you know, whatever, come back to your body.

Colby 59:58

Yeah, yeah. There's a lot in there again. I um the you've said you've said a couple of things that I think we've it'd be really um that that I guess speaks to something in me. And I had a guest on recently talking about attachment in supervision. And um, we tend to historically we thought about attachment um as being you know, originally it's a a process that occurred uh between a child and a parent, usually the mother, and then the father came in, and then we started talking about multiple attachment relationships and um and it became broadened out. Now, my guest, Alex Rao, he we were talking about supervision, but when when you talk about um attach when you mention attachment, you mentioned teachers, it occurs to me that the relationship between a child and a teacher is an attachment relationship in the sense that um it is a relationship. It does your your own attachment history influences the way for the child and for the teacher, the way you come together and interact. Um Alex put it like this: that any attachment relationship or any relationship where there is vulnerability, where there is insecurity, where there is a third thing that I off the top of my head I can't uh quite remember at the moment, but is an attachment relationship. What he was really saying is that if we take a broader perspective on attachment relations attachment relationships as such, that's actually quite helpful. It's quite a helpful model to apply to other relationships. And if if you were to apply it to the teacher, and I don't want to be I'm gonna come round to saying something else about teachers that that to that reflects my views more generally, but if you apply it to the teacher, the child uh relationship, what you're actually, if you apply attachment theory there, you're talking about if if the if the teacher doesn't look beyond the behavior of the child and look at why it's really happening and just goes, No, I'm here to teach, I'm here to teach math. Um, this child has been disruptive. I'm just going to respond to that. If you think about that as an attachment relationship, nonetheless, then that's quite a unhelpful response to the child. Like it's a it's it's a really unhelpful response to the child. And and that that experience will become integrated into their overall attachment style, the way in which they approach life and relationships. So I don't think I I I just don't think that um it is even credible to suggest that the teacher-child relationship, like the supervisor-supervisee relationship, is just about knowledge sharing or knowledge developing. It's about so much more than that. So it doesn't pass muster really to suggest that um that um schools are only a place of learning. Yeah. Now, I think schools have come a long way. I it would be my observation. Well, they've come, they they've they've come some distance towards this integrated service model that I also heard you mention in the in that that there has been an increased focus on well-being and and well-being staff and um children having a place to go. My own experience, my own thoughts around the triggering for for teachers is that I've had a lot of experience of teachers finding what I say about the children to be really illuminating to them for themselves, that they they go, they're like, oh my god, that's that that is that's what it was like for me. It's how it is still now. So it's been a validating experience for them, but that doesn't necessarily get them across the line of not responding to, you know, not giving in to those initial instinctive self-protective responses. But insight is part of the way, you know. I yeah, it like it just doesn't if you if you think about it as a child, as an attachment relationship, it just doesn't make sense to go to just completely deny while the child is crying and just see the behavior as disruptive behavior. Like you wouldn't do that in a parenting role, but essentially you are in a parenting role. You have in like o parentis role when the child is at school. I like the idea. I like have you seen more developments around providing an uh an integrated service model, more well-being uh activities in schools in your own work?

Neurodivergence And Trauma In Classrooms

Ruth 1:05:06

Not really. Um, that was one of the exceptions. And I and I think again, private schools, my God, the amount of pastoral care and support and whatever that's offered in those environments compared to my kids went to the my my daughter's just graduated, but my son's still at high school. They do not have the resources for that. That is not like I hear my a lot of the people I know send their kids to private school, and you're like, you guys are getting a whole different experience to us. But I wanted to pick up on on something that you said about the the teacher relationship and and attachment. And for me, both of my kids are neurodivergent and that was a surprise, and that was you know, late life 88. Diagnosis, my children are both autistic, my son also has ADHD. And I had to throw out every concept I had about how to parent my child in a way to get the best out of them. And for me, neurodivergence is a really interesting thing there's so many overlap. I thought I was like, how did I directly make my son so traumatized? Because his response is that huge emotional reactivity, all of that stuff looks like trauma. It looks like trauma. And you're going, How did I do that? And I'm like, I understand about epigenetics, but it's not. It's a different thing, but it's same same because the same kind of fear circuitry is activated, your amygdala is more reactive, you're doing more vigilant scan. There's so many similar processes, and there's a lot to be learned about trauma and neurodivergence overlap. There's a lot more research that needs to be done in that. But for me, I am a big believer in the Pepsi challenge, right? Why don't we do more research on how a really positive affirming model of teaching you want more control in your classroom? I Pepsi challenge you to instead of trying to be stricter, the one thing that was my son's if the teacher is strict, oh no. That is gonna be causing the trouble because it's unfair. It's unhe doesn't care if it's for him or if it's for somebody else, or if you know, unfairness is a massive trigger for neurodivergent people. And and so it's like if that if that is over the top, they can we can see what's going on, mate. You're losing it over there, and then you're putting it on the kids like it's their fault, and what if people can see that. But I think if in go back to where in the teacher training, I understand you might not see your role. You absolutely rightly, you're not a social worker, and you might not see that role. But do you want a more in-control classroom? Do you want to have children who are more able to learn? Help them to stay regulated, make regulation breaks part of your process. Teach teachers and and let's do more research on on like let's let's do the Pepsi challenge. This is a strict teacher doing this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Track outcomes, track educational outcomes, put tie it to whatever you want to tie it to and see what happens. Have people like you, others who work with children in a in a in a more sensitive and emotional and human way, have the insights from this, influence that, so that and then let them try it out. It's like I'm not telling you that it's gonna produce results, but it's gonna produce results.

Colby 1:08:54

Yeah, yeah.

Ruth 1:08:56

Try it for yourself.

Colby 1:08:58

Strictness is an interesting while you're talking about strictness. I'm thinking about why would an adult want to be so strict? And I'll and I guess where my mind would go is why does this person fear losing control so much? What what is what has been their experience in in life that has meant that they feel like they need to be in control a lot of the time? Yeah, I think we need to teach teach like I think teachers need to be able to regulate themselves as well as children need to needing to be able to do that. Because if if teachers are that I I worry about that teacher who is strict be because of a fear of losing control, then that's they're projecting fear into the classroom. And what does fear do? You know, when the children start to feel for the teacher, feel what the teacher is feeling. These are unconscious processes. You know, we're getting into witchcraft a little bit here now, but from some people's point of view, but but yet we feel for other people. Oh, it's not witchcraft.

Ruth 1:10:10

There's a lot, there's a lot of evidence actually about neuroception and science and attunement actually producing you can measure it. It is not witchcraft.

Colby 1:10:19

So when the teacher's projecting that fear, what what what what is it? What's happening for the young, particularly young people who like you have experienced significant adversity, or or like your children, who who are neurodiverse and uh are easily heightened.

Ruth 1:10:38

And I think you know, back to something you said earlier about you know comforting crying children. I think it is much easier when when the trauma expresses itself as crying, for people to access compassion, when your trauma expresses itself as anger, that is a lot more difficult for people to see as anything but an attack and something that needs to be stopped and reprimanded, and you know, like, okay, you're gonna do that to me. And I feel it as well. Like that is a big thing I had have had to learn is because my my go-to response is not to flee or to, you know, fawning 100%. I have learned to have to overcome that. My response is a fight response. And so you try and back me into a corner, and at school it wasn't so much, but you know, any any situation where it has I do feel that somebody is completely diminishing me, cutting me down to size, trying to kind of have power over me in a way that is inappropriate. I'm very, very sensitive to that. And it will never ever make me back away from the fight. It will just make me go, oh, did you want to go now? Did did you want to have a go with me? Because I'm literally happy to stand here and go toe-to-toe. And you might be surprised at how much rage I have to access here, mate.

Colby 1:12:11

I refer to these as enduring sensitivities, you know, when I'm treating children and people, the expectation is that they'll just, you know, with the help of the therapy, they'll just get over what, you know, the adversity that happened in their life. But rather, I see them as enduring sensitivities that are always there. They can be activated. Um, but but children, what we want is an outcome where children are less under the influence of those enduring sensitivities. Ruth, I just to bring bring it kind of um full circle in terms of some of these major things that that we've talked about. I think we we started off with you you were talking about recognising the problem in the first instant, recognizing the problem that there is a there is a group of people or there are groups of people where there are these significant challenges, where they those challenges have been overlooked for too long, and that they require um some understanding and responding to. We've talked about that. We've talked about um schools, schools being a place where um children spend a lot of time. A lot of the time, children are not able to speak up for themselves. They need adults who who know who will notice, who will notice, and so we need our we need uh staff in our schools, doc and also in our health services, doctors, nurses, dentists, you know, uh psychologists, counselors. We need them all to be very aware of and and understanding of childhood um adversity, developmental trauma, um, that it is a bigger problem than just those children who are in out-of-home care. Yeah. Um we want our child, we we want our teachers to be sensitive to be educated, to be sensitive and responsive. I my input would be is we want our teachers to feel in the best place that we're they're able to do that. And I would also acknowledge one of my previous guests, Megan Corcran, who said um that you don't have to be a therapist to provide a therapeutic experience for children. Yeah. Um I think we've been heading in the way of we really need we need we've been heading in the direction of we really need the government, we need fund policymakers and funders to be really investing in what do you think they need to be investing in?

Ruth 1:15:01

I think the compartmentalizing approach that is often taken, well that this does this and this does that that inherent rigidity in the system, and there is to me a defensiveness in that a lack of curiosity. I think what we need to be investing in is get a whole lot of different people from a whole lot of different sectors coming together and being willing to actually change the way the systems work. Like actually be going, is this model right? And that is very challenging for people who have doubled down on, you know, I would say education. I mean, my dad was a he he was a fitter and turner by trade, but became a TAFE teacher. And the the teaching model, I I do experience this a bit with teachers, is that teachers know best. Like there is the I'm the teacher and you're the student, and that can translate in other circumstances. And I would say rather than just it being funded, people have to be open to change.

Colby 1:16:29

Yeah, there needs to be an open inquiry, you know, the open inquiry into it's not quite the words I was looking for. I had some really good words in my head a moment ago. Uh again, age. I know, they go out, don't they? But uh yeah, an openness to ask questions.

Ruth 1:16:50

That's right, and and to people I understand that that the there is a warranted caution in in responsiveness and things move very slowly. And so for me, that model of being more open to experimentation, you know, even if you can't fund the whole thing, you you cannot change a system that is broken or where gaps exist based on everyone wants the the model and the evidence. Well, I'm sorry, if you're addressing a gap that hasn't been addressed before, there is no model because it's a gap. And so to take an approach where we go, what is the risk? The risk for me is that it remains the same. The harm that is being caused is already being caused when there is no interest in innovation and trying new things because it's well, it might cause harm. Well, I'm sorry, it's already there's all what exists is already causing harm. So, how much more calm can adding a few breathing frickin' exercises into the day cause? That is the thing that I'm always going, what is the risk? What are we talking about?

Colby 1:18:12

I think there's an evidence base that it that it may not be in a particular group, but but that sort of stuff has merit.

Ruth 1:18:18

Don't you think? And and so for me, that that approach of fund less research, fund more programs. Like actually translate what is learned into practical ways of applying knowledge. Make it more of that experimental process and track what is working. You know, you you do the research, but you can't just keep researching what exists because then you're not actually developing new ways and making change happen. So for me, the funding needs to come from doing some trial and and reframing what what the risk is. Because the risk is already happening and and a new response to it might not be perfect, but we will not learn the new lessons and make things better.

Colby 1:19:18

There has to be some some dipping of the toe in the water, yeah. We need and and what I'm hearing you say is um academic research, yes, but but program-based research uh is yeah, we need to be getting giving things a go.

Ruth 1:19:37

Giving things a go.

Colby 1:19:39

Yeah, yeah. And look, there's a I don't think that there is um a lack of evidence around taking a more um a more open questioning, inquiring approach to the experience of others. There's not a lack of evidence in the merit on the merit of doing that. Um but yeah, uh you've mentioned risk. That way we we could do a whole different uh have a whole different podcast question uh um uh conversation around risk. Um but yeah, I think we'll we'll part that. We'll leave that for maybe another another conversation. It is a it is it is a risk averseness is a is a barrier that needs to be considered, I think, in this in any endeavour, uh new endeavour. Um I guess I'd like to see I would like to see a lot more support for families who are doing things difficult. I'd actually like to see a lot less statutory intervention and a lot more family support before it comes to the city.

Ruth 1:20:53

100%.

Colby 1:20:55

But interestingly, if we can't if we can't even acknowledge that there are groups out there who are slipping, you know, who are slipping through the cracks, then uh that that I think that becomes a little bit problematic when we say, well, hang on, we'll just we'll we'll we'll remove less children and we'll provide support to families. I mean, where how are we going to find and access these families if we we just don't even we don't even know or we pr pretend we don't know they even exist out there. But I'd like to see a lot. I I'd like to see an outcome down the plat track where we're removing less children but we're we're increasing family support. And I do think and I I think with school, schools are if if the children spend so much time in school, and we talked about there children do need adults to stand up for them and adults somewhere. They spend so much time at school. If it if it's not schools, if schools aren't part of this picture, then then I don't know what is. Um I I'd love to see well-being programs, teacher education, and particularly teacher support.

Ruth 1:22:04

Yes, I that's exactly what I was thinking. It's like you cannot put all this on teachers to do like the the the pressure is too much. We need to be investing in that the teachers need this ongoing support themselves because they're managing 25 kids, whatever. That's a lot of stuff coming at you all the time, all day. Teachers need support with that, they need admin support for all the stuff, you know. Like what the just we need to be providing, we need to double down on that school system as and and make it so that teachers don't the teachers are leaving because there's too much pressure already on them.

Colby 1:22:45

That's right. You you we talked a little bit more a little bit a moment ago about projection, you know, and in a in a one-on-one context, you're just dealing with what the other person is projecting. But imagine a classroom environment where 30 children are projecting all of their experience towards the teacher, and also the teacher's own reaction to that is being felt by by the children. It is an incredibly complex dynamic. And um, you know, I think I think there are a lot of roles in in when you're working with children. When you're working with anyone, I I think there's there are challenges associated with that. And a lot of those challenges have to do with that dynamic between you, where they're feeling and experiencing this and you're feeling and experiencing this, and there's an that interplay between. And I think yeah, everyone teaches, uh even parents, parents, grandparents, kidship carers, um, social workers, social care workers. We all we we all hold a lot for others. And uh we we would benefit from being able to to be support, access, support, and understanding around that.

Ruth 1:24:09

Support those who support others and the whole thing will benefit.

Parenting After Trauma Next Steps

Colby 1:24:13

Yeah, well there's some people on my c my podcast have have pretty much said it starts there, but it can, you know, that would that would just make such a big change. Support this those who support others. That's a really nice place to finish, I think, Ruth. So thank you very much for coming on, and uh um yeah, I wish you well in your in your own endeavours. What what's next for you?

Ruth 1:24:44

Well, I'm trying, I'm in the process of trying to get parenting after trauma program that I have innovatively developed in a proper trial with clinical oversight and try and get some testing on that. So I'm people always take so long to respond. I'm like, it's done, go tomorrow, do it, so that's not how it works. That's right. So that's that's a big part of what I'm doing is trying to get some people into that and and let's start experimenting, start getting some things, start getting some feedback on what works, what doesn't, how we can because for me, exactly what you said about that rather than have people come into out of home care, how can we support parents? Help to regulate themselves while having to do stuff. How can we teach them some processes and hopefully it will help take the charge down and that will stop some of the issues that the children are facing? And I think we need to be supporting parents.

Colby 1:25:51

I'd love for the interest to be piqued here in Australia in the parenting after trauma. I suspect one of your biggest markets potentially is the US.

Ruth 1:26:01

Yeah.

Colby 1:26:02

Maybe maybe we'll you know it will um hopefully it piques the interest of some people in the US as well because that's there's a lot of um seems to be a lot of um uh resources that are put into looking at veterans and veterans' mental health and well-being. And then it it's it's only natural that they should be looking at veterans and and their families when they return. So, yeah, thanks again.

Ruth 1:26:33

Thanks for having me, Colby.