#52: Small Moments Build Safety And Hope, with Mary-anne Hodd

A child can walk into a house with a full fridge and a clean bed and still feel terrified. That’s the gap we’re trying to close, and it’s why this conversation matters.

I’m joined by Mary-anne Hodd, founder of Journeys That Care, a CPD accredited training and consultancy that blends lived experience with psychology, teaching, and therapeutic practice. Mary-anne grew up in the care system and now supports the adults around care experienced children across fostering, residential care, local authorities and schools. Together we dig into what actually changes outcomes: not perfect plans or flawless paperwork, but relationships that hold steady over time. We talk about the adults who keep showing up, the “fresh start” that helps a young person risk trust again, and why hope often takes years to bloom after leaving care.

We also go deep on language in social care. What do labels like “challenging behaviour” and “hard to engage” really do to a child’s story, especially when those words end up in files a young person might read as an adult? Mary-anne shares her experience of requesting her records, the long wait, the emotional hit, and the one simple line that brought her identity back to life. We unpack how to write case notes with compassion and curiosity while staying professional, and how understanding rights and entitlements can lift aspiration instead of shrinking it.

If you work in trauma-informed care, child protection, out-of-home care, education, or youth mental health, you’ll take away practical ways to centre the child’s voice and create everyday moments of safety. Subscribe, share this episode with someone in the sector, and leave a review so more carers and professionals can find it.

Mary-anne's Bio

Mary-anne Hodd is the founder of Journeys That Care, a CPD-accredited training, consultancy, and speaking organisation that combines lived experience with professional insight. Care-experienced herself, she draws on a background in psychology, teaching, and therapeutic practice to support the adults who work with and around children and young people in care, right across the UK.

Her work is about bridging the gap between policy, practice, and lived experience, supporting the adults around children and young people to build and sustain relationships in which both they and the children they care for feel safe, hopeful, and able to thrive. She is passionate about amplifying lived experience, challenging assumptions, and supporting professionals to create environments where children and young people feel understood, valued, and able to thrive.

Links:

Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/TheSecureStartPodcast
Podcast Blog Site: https://thesecurestartpodcast.com/

Disclaimer: Information reported by guests of this podcast is assumed to be accurate as stated. Podcast owner Colby Pearce is not responsible for any error of facts presented by podcast guests. In addition, unless otherwise specified, opinions expressed by guests of this podcast may not reflect those of the podcast owner, Colby Pearce. Finally, all references to case examples are anonymised to the extent that the actual case could not be identified, or are fictional but based on real-life examples for illustrative purposes.

Transcript

Welcome And Why Relationships Matter

Colby 0:00

Welcome to the Secure Start podcast. Brought to you by the Secure Start Aura apps, supporting trauma-informed care and practice at home and in school.

Mary-anne 0:17

When I was growing up in the care system, I had lots of people around me whose literal chosen thing to do with their life and their job and their career was to make sure that I was okay and that I was happy and thriving, dare I say. When I look back on what made the difference in my life and in my brothers, it's it's all about relationships, it's all about the people, it's all about having somebody that that believes in you, that finds you funny or interesting or charming or whatever it is, and and and no matter what behaviours we are seeing day in, day out, shows up the next day with that fresh face. I think for the adults that support our children and young people, it's like just having that sense of like of hope and belief that we might not be there to see all of our lessons and everything that we're doing flourish and thrive, but we've just got to trust and know and hope that it will. And I think this is the beauty of especially residential, where actually you can create environments where you'll you have different young people with different interests, and you can it you can show them and and open them up to so many different experiences, different ways of life, different like the adults that support them, they have different lives and like you know, different backgrounds, and opening up to knowing more beyond what you have experienced. I'm my my care experience is is a part of me. It's not all of me. I'm so much more than that, but it's a part of my story, and it's not something I'll ever be ashamed of. Like, because I'm in care, I just thought I couldn't go travelling. And nobody had ever said to him, you can't go travelling. It was just the messages that had like, you know, instilled in him over his care experience. And how sad is that? There is still a long way to go. When I ask people about what language they think of when they think of kids in care, what I'm always met with first is assumptions of naughty, unwanted, unlovable children that are not in employment education or training that are going to end up in the criminal justice system, if you know that their parents didn't want them or couldn't handle them. And that that's still such a large narrative, like such a huge narrative that is out there, which is just inherently incorrect. But I was looking for that for those stories to almost be validated, that somebody else saw what I was going through, that they heard me, and none of that was heard. My story was told by somebody else and their perspective of what mattered. We can't cringe at ourselves at this, right? Because we have to be shame and blame free. Um, because language is ever evolving, and actually just having the intention and the commitment to wanting to keep trying to get it right is what our young they will feel that. They will feel that.

Meet Mary Ann Hodd

Colby 3:18

Welcome to the Secure Start podcast. I'm Colby Pearce, and joining me for this episode is another leading voice in the care lever and social care community. Before I introduce my guests, I'd just like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands that I come to you from, the Kaurna people at the Adelaide Plains, and acknowledge the continuing connection the living Kaurna people feel to land, waters, culture, and community. I'd also like to pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging. My guest this episode is Mary Ann Hodd. Mary Ann is the founder of Journeys That Care, a CPD accredited training, consultancy, and speaking organisation that combines lived experience with professional insight. Care Experienced herself, she draws on a background in psychology, teaching, and therapeutic practice to support the adults who work with and around children and young people in care right across the UK. Her work is about bridging the gap between policy, practice and lived experience, supporting the adults around children and young people to build and sustain relationships in which both they and the children they care for feel safe, hopeful, and able to thrive. Marianne is passionate about amplifying lived experience, challenging assumptions, and supporting professionals to create environments where children and young people feel understood, valued, and able to thrive. I hope you'll enjoy our conversation. Welcome, Mary Ann, to the Secure Start Podcast.

Mary-anne 5:16

Thank you for having me, Colby. Very happy to be here.

Colby 5:20

Well, and I'm very happy to have you here too. We're um connected on LinkedIn, and although we haven't interacted much, I have been following your um, I guess, what you've been up to over the last probably two or three years. And in fact, you wouldn't know this because I haven't said it to you in any of our pre-recording conversations. But um I have I you were on my list right from the start.

Mary-anne 5:49

Oh, look at that. I feel quite good. That's quite cool.

Colby 5:55

And uh yeah, and I feel a little bit um bad in a way that it's taken so long to get to you. It's been it's been a rather it's a it's been a long list and uh lots of yeah, I've been privileged to have so many people uh on the podcast and now I have you here. And uh um one of the reasons why I I really wanted to have you come on and talk uh about our our shared area of dev of endeavour being social care and and the provision of social care for children is that you bring a uh a very important perspective to this space. And uh, but enough of me talking about it. Uh maybe if you can tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do.

Mary-anne 6:45

Yeah, sure. Um it's it I I do I feel the pressure now, isn't it? It's get get the words out in the right order. Here we go. Um because yeah, you've had some brilliant guests on as well, by the way. It's a really great, it's great. Um okay, so who am I? Um yeah, Mary Ann, Mary is fine. Um, and I guess that experience that you're talking about is um a lived experience um of of growing up in the care system. So um I um I'll start with where I'm at now and then how I got there, really. Um so now I run my own business, which is um crazy to say that actually, because for the last, I mean the first couple of years I was kind of just you know doing it in my spare time as and when I could. And um the last year or so I've I've uh set up what is Journeys That Care, and I work with children's residential teams, fostering, um, local authorities, virtual schools, any any of the adults that work with and around care experienced children and young people. Um and I'm really passionate about connecting that voice of lived experience um with kind of the psychological theory and the practical application. So it's like what might this that feelings-focused stuff of like really connecting to what it might feel like to be that child or that young person living in in our homes, being in these spaces where we um are with them day in, day out, what that might be like to grow up in the care system. Um, the theory behind why we might show up as that child or young person in some of the ways that we do, and then the practical application of like, well, now we know about it, what can we do about it? Um, so I guess my work is centered around a few different themes. I'm really passionate about language, um and that's a good chunk of what I do is focused on language, and we'll talk more about that today, hopefully, and um also about understanding the impact of early adversity, the potential impact, but um not in a way that is uh I guess how I first understood it, which felt like I was doomed. Yes, um, but in a way, again, like you know, what what makes the difference? Um, questions of identity and transitions and and leaving care as well. So there's a good kind of few chunks of the things that I'm interested in and that my work centers on. Um and and yeah, happy to answer any questions about any of that, and happy to also tell you, I guess a bit more if it'd be useful about my journey of how I actually got to this point as well, if that's helpful.

Colby 9:37

Well, yeah, look, um, I'm always a little bit cautious around uh around the history of people who have um experienced significant adversity growing up or and and who have been in out-of-home care. So I think a number of the uh care leavers that I've spoken to uh refer to it as trauma mining. And yeah, uh and I don't ever want to be I've just I I'm I feel very uncomfortable with that.

Mary-anne 10:07

Yeah.

Colby 10:08

Um that

Lived Experience Without Trauma Mining

Colby 10:10

you know, I do my my my day job is I work as a as as a clinical psychologist providing psychotherapy for children and young people in out-of-home care, uh, and right through until they grow up to be young adult adults as well. And but it's interesting that I'm speaking to you today, and it's probably my my unconscious, you know, was preparing me in between uh young people I was seeing today, because I started to get to think about the experience of children at school, yeah. And how much what how much parents know or don't know about you know those experiences minute by minute that that children have at school, their experiences of other, their experiences of being away from the home, their experience of other young people, um, their experience of the teacher, their experience of the work there. And you know, I don't I don't know if if I I I found myself thinking, this would be a really good thing to write about that because giving such an insight, and I'll tell you the other the trigger for it was I walked out of my room into a waiting room with a I'm in a practice with doctors, medical doctors, and there was someone there who was almost a doppelganger of someone that I went to school with, and and I thought, oh, I'm not overly proud of all those interactions that I have with that person. Um yeah, anyway, it's it's interesting, and that that's I think the heart of lived experience voices, isn't it? Really, that what it accesses for us.

Mary-anne 11:54

Yeah, it is, and I think you're touching on something, right? I think I think when I think about my childhood and my experiences, what uh what I don't do is just stand up and tell my story X X followed by X, followed by X. I think that there's so much power in that. Um, but I think there's a lot of work that I've done to get to a point where um I know what I'm sharing, why I'm sharing it, and and what the impact is on the people that I'm sharing it with, and and that action behind it. It's like that feeling of well, what can we do about this, right? I think adversity is part of life for well, it's part of being human, isn't it? Um, but what I know about the children and young people that we support is that, and and it's a narrative that I have carried with me in kind of helping me almost flip the script on what my care experience meant to me. Um I think it's really common for care experienced young people to experience othering, bullying, uh sense of shame, a sense of um, you know, uh that those compounding experiences of early adversity, that complex trauma that so many of our young people are carrying. Um and that label of what it means to be a kid in care carries it's it carries so much with it, the stereotypes, the statistics that surround us. And so my one of my like one of the things that I'm really proud of with my lived experience is being able to flip the lid on how I thought how it used to be for me. So I think when I left care, I wanted nothing to do with it. Um I wanted to kind of get as far away as possible. Uh happy not to really talk about it or think about it. And I very much had that classic teenage narrative of, you know, I am the way that I am, and there's nothing you can do about it. Um and actually, as I've gotten older and and and started to understand, I did my psychology degree and my teaching degree, and in that the uh process of studying psychology, started to understand the impact of my early experiences and how they shaped me into being the way that I am. And maybe I'm not to blame for this, maybe it's not my fault, and maybe I can do something about it. And with that, that that kind of label of what it meant to be a kid in care, going from actually, well, care is supposed to be the safe place that picks you up when things go wrong at home, right? When home can't look after you in the way that it's supposed to, that's what care is supposed to do. And yet we know that that so many of our young people are ending up far from where they could or should be. So a lot of what I do comes back to that kind of like what makes a difference, and I sense my brother in this as well. So the the power of lived experience is the you know, that that ability to really know what it feels like to go through it. Um and uh when I look at mine and my brother's story on paper, we had the same upbringing and very different outcomes, and um I said I went off to university, I did some campaigning, which I can tell you more about the guarantor scheme actually today as well. Um my little brother he went to live in a supported accommodation, um, a really rubbish one. I won't swear on your podcast, Colby, I'll keep it PC. Um really rubbish one. Um and fell into the wrong crowd, as we say, and was like seeking connection in all the wrong places, um, and started using and and and dealing, and things snowballed for him, and he lost his job, lost his home, and became one of those statistics that surround us. So a lot of what I do now is being able to utilize that to kind of say why was I maybe okay and he wasn't? And what what makes the difference right now? That's such a massive question. There are so many pieces of the pie that go into that. Um, but I feel really proud and grateful to be able to utilize that. And in that journey, with that narrative that we were talking about of co-experience as well, being able to say actually my coexperience now means to me when I was growing up in the care system, I had lots of people around me whose literal chosen thing to do with their life and their job and their career was to make sure that I was okay and that I was happy and and thriving, dare I say. That's what it the job's supposed to be, right? And knowing what I was entitled to, and I got more support because I was in the care system and I am where I am today because of that journey. And that journey is not without its challenges. It's the challenges don't change when you come, they don't stop when you come into care, they just change. Um, but that's not something I'll ever be ashamed of, it's not something I will ever be um embarrassed or hide from, you know, it's actually I think it's pretty cool that for a lot of our young people, they've been through in their early years more than some people will in their entire lifetime. And the fact that we are still here today is an achievement in itself. So, how do we have that lens with looking at these children and young people in our homes and in wherever we're supporting them?

Colby 17:18

Yeah. It

Reframing Survival Into Strength

Colby 17:20

it it sounds a bit trite to say it, but it but I'm really pleased to hear you talk about your experience of adversity as being rather than it being something that take takes away from you and who you are as a person, it's actually something that ha it's given you something. It it is it's kind of been your um the trite bit would to say it's a it's a bit like a superpower, but you know, it's it's it's rather than diminish you, it's it's actually grown you. Yeah. Yeah, you because you have such knowledge.

Mary-anne 17:59

Yeah, and I wouldn't be doing what I do today without it. Some days I uh you know, I joke with my husband, like, why can't I just be interested in something else? Because it's a lot at times, right? And I think that's again why I'm so passionate about supporting the adults that support these young people, because we have to be, we have to, you know, the classic saying, what is it? You can't pour from an empty cup, we've got to fill our own cups first, because it takes a lot to do this. Um, but being able to I think it's that like it's not one or the other, it's the and in the adversity for me. It's like I look at some of the some of my biggest strengths now, which took me a really long time to be even able to say or talk about. Um I am resilient, right? I'm really resilient, and I'm really proud of my resilience because it enables me to do what I do. I'm brave enough to sit on this podcast with you today, and if it all goes bit tits up, I'll be okay, right? Like worst things have happened. Um but that resilience is something I'm so proud of now as an adult, but I should never have had to have been resilient when I when that strength was was born. It was born out of an environment of neglect and abuse and complete dysfunction. I was resilient because I had to be, right? And and like my perceptiveness, like I think this is so interesting when you think about this. If you if we can think about how we support our young people to be able to reframe it in that sense, like my my I'm quite good at reading a room because I didn't even have to see my dad to know what kind of day we were gonna have, what time he woke up, how heavy his footsteps were, how loud that door closed behind him. I knew. Do I want to leg it and get the hell out of the house and come back when it's dark? Or are we gonna have an okay day today? But that so that perceptiveness, that hypervigilance as a child is now a strength that I use day to day. And it doesn't say it never says that the that makes the adversity okay. It's not it's not saying that it's okay that that stuff happened because now I've got good stuff, it's saying that stuff is not okay, and now I can use it to stuck strength in my my life now, and it's that that is something I'm really interested in. Is and I didn't get that from myself, I didn't get that language of my own strengths. I didn't pick that up, you know. That was from the adults around me that and it wasn't many of them, and it wasn't even always people that were in my life for a long time, but it's in that real those relationships that somebody else pointed out what my strengths were, gave me the language for it, helped me understand what I was feeling, helped me start to like give me the the plant the seeds, you know, of that possibility of positive change. So it's all of that that I'm really interested in as well, isn't it?

Colby 21:03

Yeah, well, you mentioned a little bit earlier about uh, you know, what what is really important to get to have gotten you to this point that um that you've gotten to within your life. Um you've just now mentioned that there are there were certain key adults um that were really important. I wonder if you might want to expand upon that a little bit and maybe also um talk at talk to what else you think is really important or was really important um to uh facilitate your growth uh to this point that you are in your life now.

The Adults Who Kept Showing Up

Mary-anne 21:41

Yeah. Um I think I'm just making a note of rights and entitlements I'll come back to that. Um actually it's It's pretty simple. And I think that's what I keep coming back to in all of what we do and how we do it. I think we can get caught up in regulations and to-do lists and keeping our young people like physically safe from harm. And you know, but actually when I look back on what made the difference in my life and in my brothers, it's it's all about relationships, it's all about the people, it's all about having somebody that that believes in you, that finds you funny or interesting or charming or whatever it is. And and and no matter what behaviors we are seeing day in, day out, shows up the next day with that fresh face. And I think I often think about who is that significant adult for our young people. Um, and I think that can feel like a bit of pressure sometimes if that is you or you're that one person for somebody. But I think in my life, it was never just one person, it was like lots of people in little snippets over the years. So at times it was my foster mum that you know made me study really hard and gave me um the resources and the routine and the structure and everything. And other times it was um a social worker that took me to the movies. I was watching um but Final Destination came up on the TV the other day, actually. And I just got this flashback to my social worker taking me to watch the first Final Destination in the cinema. And um and and I remember, yeah, her saying to me for months afterwards um how she it was she was still just absolutely shaken by it. She does not like scary movies, but she did it for me. Um and I loved it. And I remember her like the fear in her face, and it's in those like little moments that like that's what sticks with you. Um, the teacher, the um, you know, when I was in primary school and just before we were taken into full-time care, I hadn't been sleeping. My dad's schizophrenia was really bad. I was up in the night with my dad a lot. Um, and my teacher could just see this, and she just put out a beanbag and she let me sleep, and she got me some clean clothes and she fed me, um, and she phoned social services as well, as she should have done. Um but those like little things in the moment, the lesson wasn't as important as me being safe and held. My RE teacher that became head of six form when I was in secondary school, that um when I was going through my exams and really struggling to stay in school, that said I could go to his cup, his office, and have a cup of tea when I felt like I, if I felt like I was gonna leave school, just go to his office instead and we'll make a cup of tea. Kept me in school, kept me in my exams. The psychology teacher that gave me the language to help me understand my interest in psychology. It's all of those like little moments that have like built up to what I now look back on as like the things that made the difference when in all of those moments there is so much stuff that's going on at home. The the adversities that are still there, the challenges are still there, but you've got these like people that just create moments for you to see you as a child, no matter how horrible I'd been to them the net the day before. Met me at the you know, the school gates. Let's go, Mary, fresh day, you know, like fresh start. It's I think the little things really become the big things in that.

Colby 25:35

Umise Louise Allen, who was on the podcast um a little while back, she said, All I all I re really wanted was an adult who would smile when they saw me.

Mary-anne 25:50

Yeah, wow.

Colby 25:51

Which I thought I I know I'm very, very um mindful of smiling whenever I greet it uh any of our young people now. Um James Anglin, the the most recent past podcast that has been published was the podcast episode I did with James Anglin, and um he talked about Rubik's Cubes, and it it's a very and I may not I may not be exactly remembering it how he described it, but this is what I it again it came up today in my practice, but um this was how I what I took from that conversation is that you know the number of different permutations of a Rubik's Cube is some quintillion number. It is so such a huge number, but the number of reliable steps to complete it is actually quite a small number. So people who can complete a Rubik's Cube really quickly, um, and the world record at the moment I think is is three seconds, and they can do it from any of those quintillion ways of of setting it up because they they know how to get from there to there, so to speak, with whatever they're and uh but what that the story what I take from that is that it's not it that it's not it doesn't have to be as complex as the Contilian moves, you know. There it and in fact my preference is always for those those simple gestures, those simple relational connections, uh relational behaviors that support connections that heal. And it's an incremental process. As you I hear you talk about it, it's not one big thing, it's not the therapy you went to. It you know, it's not that you went from one you went to the perfect foster placement, or it's just a collection of moments that add up.

Mary-anne 27:50

And time on that as well, right? I think like when I was in, I think a lot of this perspective that I'm able to give now is because I'm 32 and I've been out of the care system for 15 years plus, gosh. Um, and when I was in it, I I I would have had a different story, right? And I was just focused on living, on getting by, on the next thing, on

Hope Takes Time After Care

Mary-anne 28:20

trying to be a kid whilst also functioning with an assistant that doesn't always make it the easiest to do that, and the challenges that's going on around it of just getting by. And it wasn't until I actually had long left care and I was 23 when I met my husband, and we got our own place together, and I felt like a sense of calm that I've never experienced before. And it's when that that the lessons like started to like come back. I think I think for the adults that support our children and young people, it's like just having that sense of like of hope and belief that we might not be there to see all of our lessons and everything that we're doing flourish and thrive, but we've just got to trust and know and hope that it will. And and I think about that all of the time and what our priorities are because it I think when you're a kid in the care system, it can life can feel so serious, and it can be it, it's like, yeah, you've grown up in this environment of of uh for for lots of our young people, like dysfunction and adversity, and and we learn to survive in those environments. We do whatever we have to do to make that survival work, and then all of that is taken away, and and we're moved then to a new environment that is maybe physically safe, but emotionally, physiologically, my nervous system is screaming danger, danger, danger. I tell you what, at the end of at the end of today, if we've got time, I'll read you a poem um that that that capsulates that that feeling actually.

Colby 29:57

Oh my god.

Mary-anne 29:59

It's it's a really powerful one. It's not uh it's written by a supervising social worker, I'll share it. Um the feel that feeling of like, I remember like the fridge being full, which I'd never experienced before. It's just a lot, isn't it? There's a lot of a lack of autonomy, a lot of lack of control. It can feel heavy at times, and I think when you pick like match that with the statistics that surround our care experience, young adults growing up in that, you can kind of feel like your future is like determined before you have a chance to figure that out for yourself, and I think that's why it's so important for the adults to like understand what the impact of that might be, and then for us to have high aspirations, to dare to dream for them, to show them a different way, to to challenge the narratives, to challenge the labels, and for all of that to be drip fed throughout everything that we do, to create spaces for joy, for play, to just be a kid, all of it.

Colby 31:08

There's so much going through my mind listening to you speak, and but one of the one of the things that um that really is is very much in the forefront of my mind is that um it's interesting how a lot of the focus of endeavour in this space continues to be trying to get adults to look behind the behaviour and understand the child behind it. I think I think that's really telling. And um and also this ties back in with with earlier comments about the the the value of voices that can say what it's like to be a child in this space. And it's such it's such a vexed space to work, it's high stress, everyone's all the adults are elevated a lot of the time, and they all want to do uh you know, they all want to do what's best by the children, and of and often enough they've all got their own version of what the best thing is to do by the children, and that and it's their version, and so you get this scenario where you get all these adults in a room to talk about the child, and the first person whose voice is lost is the child's voice, as the adults, yeah.

Mary-anne 32:38

So yeah, I i I I think about that all the time, like whose whose agenda are we on? Um because you know, when you ask people their why of why we get into this, you know, it's not it's to support kids to have have a better life, right? Like it's not it's not about the the to-do lists or you know, the bureaucracy, which we can all get so stuck in. And I see it no matter whether it is with fostering children's residential, whether it's with schools, we can all get stuck in what the wider system challenges are, which is why we have to always come back and focus on what we can do. What where you know those the classic circles of control activity, what where's our influence and what can we focus on that makes a difference? Because like all of those people, the stories that I shared, it's not it's not the it's not in you know the paperwork that that that is what's remembered, it's it's in the moments, it's so it's it's the relational togetherness, and so you know, I think all the time about you know that meeting with my social worker. And if I see her at the door, but before I actually see her, I see the clipboard, and the first thing you're doing is coming into my foster mum's room, where as far as I'm concerned, she sat outside that door listening to every word that I'm saying. So I'm not really going to tell you what I think here. And then we've got a questionnaire that's circle this sad smiley or middle face that tells me how you feel, which means, you know, F all to a child too much for me. Like, and I think that's what's hard. It's one of the reasons that my social worker left that was so good because she was running out of resources and time to be able to where she did use to pick me up and take me to the cinema, and that's where the gold, that's where I would tell her in that car journey what really mattered. Um it's in the how of of it all that that really makes a difference, doesn't it? It's um yeah. I think also the other thing I missed when you were asking me about what made the people that made the difference, and I think this is something that's really important when we think about our young people in care, is is um it's the some of the things that I think about practically in my life now, is also knowing what I was entitled to as a care experienced young person because I was entitled to extra support, extra resources. I leaned into my local authority being my corporate parent. I founded the first official guarantor scheme in the UK for care experienced young people, where I leaned into them acting as a good parent would, and I said, you have to be my corporate parent. And we designed a scheme and they did act as my corporate parent. So I got to rent in the private rental sector. They've given, you know, when I wanted to do a course and I've needed money for it, if I wanted to go to uni, they've helped me understand what I was entitled to and what my roots were. And I think that's really important when we are the adults supporting young people is to, you know, know, for example, what the Leaving Care Act says that your young people are entitled to. Just know it and talk to them about it, because it will help with that aspiration of where they might want to go and what they might want to do, because there are so many practical barriers and like financial the finances side is such a big one. So knowing one of the reasons I went to uni at the time was because I would I got the grant. I got a the maintenance grant doesn't exist anymore, but but my social worker said if you go to uni, you're gonna get a maintenance grant, which means each month you'll get X, Y, and Z and you won't have to pay for accommodation. And so in my mind, I went, Oh, Cha-Ching, you're paying me to go to uni. I'm gonna make that work.

Rights Entitlements And Corporate Parenting

Mary-anne 36:20

Um, you know, like knowing my rights and entitlements is a really important part of that, and again, come from the adults supporting me. Sorry, that was a little side quest on what we were talking then.

Colby 36:32

No, no, I mean it's all part of the richness of the conversation. And um I was reacting particularly to the idea of how we support children in care to to um realize their their dreams and aspirations. And yeah, but but in the back of my mind, Mary Ann, and is was thinking about all the children that I've known over this past 30 plus years, and I'm wondering just wondering about those conversations I have with them where they say they're they're they're not sure what the future looks like for the what they don't they they haven't I mean I I have plenty of children, young people who want to be psychologists based on the the interactions they have with me, they think I've got the best job in the world. But um, but a lot of the times our children I I would say either struggle to or won't dare to dream.

Mary-anne 37:40

Yeah, but but is that any wonder where if you think about their background and then the the language or the perceptions of of being that kid in care as well and the messages that are kind of streamed in, and just being a teenager, when all of this question comes up, is like what an insane time as it is anyway. Like everything's changing, your brain is remodeling, your hormones are raging, like you figuring out your social norms and expectations, who you are as an individual, but also where you sit in in your peers, you're testing boundaries. Are the boundaries really there, or are they there just because that adult said that they're there? All of that stuff is like normal and expected, and then on top of that, you add that impact of early adversity, and it's so much pressure. Like I remember I remember it so clearly. I remember that you get suddenly into your exams and people are asking you what you're gonna do next, where are you gonna go? And for I think for people that that grow up in you know, a traditional family environment, and it might be easier to have had stories as you're growing up about what your dad does, what your mum does, what your auntie does. And I think in the care system, some of that stuff gets lost along the way. And I remember my brother saying he felt such enormous pressure, and he he said to me, I will never forget it. He said, I don't know what I want to do, Mary, so I'm gonna do nothing. Um, and by God, did he stand by that for a little while, right? Like, because he just felt like what he what he was deciding to do was gonna be what he was gonna do for the rest of his life. And I think being able to storytell and create opportunities for our young people to experience lots of different things whilst they're with us. I think this is the beauty of especially residential, where actually you can create environments where you'll you have different young people with different interests, and you can it you can show them and and uh open them up to so many different experiences, different ways of life, different like the adults that support them, they have different lives and like you know, different backgrounds and opening up to knowing more beyond what what you have experienced is really important. I'm I like it's so important. I think I always think about this lad. Um I was doing a workshop with a group of of 10 to 15 year olds uh that had experienced bullying because they were in care, or they wanted to hide their care experience. They didn't want other people to know about it, they were ashamed. And we we had two hours together to kind of talk about that narrative that I said at the beginning of today, which is you know, I'm I'm my my care experience is is a part of me. It's not all of me, I'm so much more than that, but it's a part of my story, and it's not something I'll ever be ashamed of. And I was talking to them about having gone traveling, which is something I'm so proud of. Me and my husband spent two years traveling Canada, and my parents have never even had a passport, right? And never, it's that's something that would never have been possible for me. And we worked so hard to get there, it's so hard to stay out there. And this 15-year-old lad who was so articulate, his eyes lit up, and I said, Is that something you'd like to do? And he said, I would love to go traveling. And I said, Well, that's amazing. Like, where would you want to go? And he just went, but like, but I just thought I never could. And I said, What do you mean? And he said, Well, because like because I'm in care, I just thought I couldn't go traveling. And nobody had ever said to him, you can't go traveling. It was just the messages that had like you know, instilled in him over his care experience. And how sad is that, right? Like, why can't it should be the other way?

Colby 41:34

Like, yeah. Robbie Gilligan, but just by just shout out to Robbie, he talked very much about important adults in their life in the lives of children and and and doing he talked about Sinead O'Connor and the nun who used to take her out to the nightclubs, and which which I think it ties in beautifully with what you're saying. I I want to there's a reflection that I have on what you're saying, which I'm

Dreaming Beyond Trauma And Targets

Colby 42:00

interested in your um response to. And just just as a separate separate thing, comment, I I I do love to try and explore with children what they're interested in, what their likes and dislikes are, but particularly what they're what their deeply held dreams and aspirations and and interests are, and and talk to them about it and acknowledge it and validate it because and this is the reflection. I wonder whether in this space we get we get too much too involved in or too focused on what we see as a um a primary task or uh an endeavor to support recovery. So we're trauma focused, we're trauma, you know, trauma, we're trauma-informed, we're trauma-focused, we're trauma setting. But but but I wonder whether sometimes there's too much focus on the trauma, uh on trauma and trauma recovery, and we miss these things that you're talking about, these conversations about life and all the richness that exists in life outside of trauma. You know, the the the the ability to I mean, one of my particular interests is living off-grid and building my own buildings and and doing all that sort of thing. And and a number of the young lads that that come to see me, they're interested in that too. We have a great old conversation about it.

Mary-anne 43:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Colby 43:31

Um, but you know, computers the same. I'm interested in pulling them apart, putting them, putting them back together again. We've run almost like workshops on that in in in therapy. Uh, although the serious adults would say, remember, you're not here to talk about or fix computers.

Mary-anne 43:51

No, but uh but like but why not, right? Because for so much of that child's life, it has been so serious. And so focused on what is next. And yeah, that let's set the SMART goals for him. And are they achievable? And every pep meeting and lack review and all of everything that we're surrounded in is like, well, what's the next goal? And how are you achieving this? Or how are you getting there? And it's like, well, actually, like what I might do in my life might be fix surrounded in the fixing computers. And when I'm having that moment where you're in relation, that that intersubjectivity of just being in it together, that's when the good stuff happens. And like, I think that's that strengths lens as well, isn't it? I think about um a psychologist that um was working with a friend of mine, um, was pulled in because there was this uh young girl, 16, 17. Her foster family were really worried about her because she was just spending all of her time on the computer and she wasn't socializing. They couldn't, they were just really worried. And eventually they figured out that on the computer, she's like building something, building houses, like like I don't know what it was, but she had some sort of like game programming thing. So they eventually used that, they got her enrolled in this graphic design course, and and she went on to do really well and like have a because they flipped that lens and like what what are they spending their time in? Where is that interest and how can we flip that? And if they don't have any interests or they don't know, then it's about us maybe giving a bit of ourselves and saying, Well, actually, I of course isn't it really fun when we do this, or do you want to come and kick that ball around with me, or shall we go out and see this thing and creating opportunities for those for those moments for us to experience what might become an interest, or that thing that makes us laugh, or that thing that makes us light up and those memories, like yeah, it's in all of that, isn't it?

Colby 45:53

I have a particular lad that I I reflect on who I do sometimes wonder, he he gets in so much trouble. He but he he's he's such a mischievous lad, and he thinks it's all the biggest laugh. And the adults in his life would probably be horrified to know that um I really find some of his antics to be quite fucking just as and and and and I I do will sometimes wonder whether I'm the only adult in his life that enjoys the scallywag in him, that that really enjoys that. Um and he get yeah, he does seem to get so much out of yeah, the that that interaction that is um um appreciating rather than seeing it as an inadequacy, just appreciating you know, that what a performer he is.

Mary-anne 46:58

It's not saying like but yeah, but it's saying like, yeah, I can I can appreciate that, and it's not okay that you also do this at the same time. It's like the connection correction stuff, isn't it? It's a two hands of um like the DDP approach where you know thinking about, you know, for so many of our young people, it's straight into fix this, change this, try this, but actually, you know, I think that's the challenge sometimes is that it might take weeks, months just to build that relationship with that young person who has been let down so many times, who is described as hard to engage in his files. Well, is it a wonder, right? Like when it this is what he's been through. Um, it might take a really long time. And I think that's really hard when you've then got, you know, well, what's the outcome of this session? And what what you know, what are we meeting this target? And actually, sometimes we just need to step back and and create moments for the relationship again. Yeah.

Colby 47:54

I do, I think, I think a couple of things. I think those of us who work in this space as therapists need to get better at explaining what we do that is therapeutic, and uh yeah, and and I think and I I think that the the people who engage us need to get better at understanding what is therapeutic as well. Um but you language it it's not just what we do, it's how we say language is really important to you. You've mentioned it um more than once already. Tell us a little bit about of your thoughts around the language we use in this space.

Mary-anne 48:29

Yeah,

Language That Shapes Care And Records

Mary-anne 48:30

I think it's um I think it's quite have uh heavy for a little bit, and I think this is what is so challenging. I wish that it could be a picture of positivity. I will say I do hope we are at a point of critical change and we might start to see some of that change in the years to come. But I think it takes a long, it does take a long time for change to be embedded. You know, we've we've talked about language for years now, um, and the perceptions of what it means to be a kid in care and the stereotypes. Um, and you know, I mean, I don't know if you saw the news, but here in the UK, uh, I think it was around Christmas time. There was like, for example, an MP, uh a counsellor in Cambridgeshire sat at a meeting talking about kids in care. You're nodding, yeah.

Colby 49:22

I think I know the story that you get. Though I'm way, way, way, way on the other side of the world. I'm pretty sure I know the story.

Mary-anne 49:29

Yeah, you know, they're not just um these aren't just naughty kids, these are downright evil children talking about children and young people in care. And um, I think maybe a few years ago he might have kind of gotten away with that, maybe, and it might have almost been brushed past, but every single other person at that table challenged him and said, You can't say that. These are children and young people that have lived through extreme adversity, um, that are managing, you know, with the impact of complex trauma, and then he was removed from his post damn straight, right? Um, so that we had accountability. So I that I hold on to that as a point of like, I hope we're at a point of change, but there is still a long way to go. When I ask people about what language they think of when they think of kids in care, what I'm always met with first is assumptions of naughty, unwanted, unlovable children that are not in employment education or training that are going to end up in the criminal justice system, if you know that that their parents didn't want them or couldn't handle them. And that that's still such a large narrative, like such a huge narrative that is out there, which is just inherently incorrect, you know. I'm not in the care system because I'm a naughty, unwanted, and lovable child, I'm in because of what I've been through and what my parents have been through, and that intergenerational element to this, right? Um so I'm really passionate about language in the sense that I think it changes our perception. And then if we change our perception, we can change how we respond. And then in turn, maybe that will start to change, you know, how young people see and understand themselves. Because again, my brother's voice is ringing in my head, where he said, you know, they expect me to fail, Mary, so that's what I'm gonna do. It's like that lack of aspiration that that it instilled on him from all of these people around him that he then took on as that self-fulfilling prophecy. Um, so I think there's a lot of kind of catchual terminology that also surrounds us if we think about young people's files. So, like, you know, challenging behavior is a really common one. So I really um um think it's important that we really think about what does that mean? Um, any of these hard to engage. What does it really mean? Who is the behavior challenging? Is it challenging the young person? Is it challenging me as the adult because I don't know how the hell to deal with it? Um, what's actually happening? What am I actually seeing? Um, describe the behavior rather than labeling it, giving maybe context to that as well. Like, you know, what was happening before, what's the after, what's the so what of it? Um, and I think that's the tricky stuff with how we record because uh for a long time we've been told to, you know, the priorities in our recording. It's funny, when I ask people what the prior why do you record, what's your priority in recording? And and and there's often a few different responses, and it's it's set in well to protect ourselves and to protect the young people so we can evidence our decision making for Ofsted. And um on the other side of that is like well, we're we're storytelling, we're actually authoring a young person's story, a young person's childhood, and like what an absolute privilege it is to be able to do that, and you can do that and write completely child-centered and have curiosity and compassion and intention in your recordings whilst evidencing and and meeting all of the regulations and and everything else that comes on that side of stuff and being professional with this professional hat on that people come back to. Um, it's not one or the other. It's it's but but when you think about the legacy of what we leave behind, that's my priority in recording, right? Because when you read some young people's files that, yeah, you know, describe hard manipulative, attention seeking, or hard to engage in challenging behavior, and it paints this picture of this, like, you know, evil child, little demon child, yeah. And actually, there's so much going on with that. And I think people sometimes struggle because they go, well, we're told not to use our opinion when we're recording. And and and yeah, right, you're not you shouldn't be conclusive and saying you did this, but you threw the chair at me because you were really angry because at your mum because of X, but you can be curious and you can use your professional insight and your relationship with that child to not just say, you know, you should you you show challenging behavior today and and threw the chair or X, Y, and Z, but actually maybe it's because of what of what happened this morning on the phone call with your mum, or maybe it's not about the fact we asked you to put your plate in the sink, but the fact that your dad hasn't shown up for the third week in a row, you know, it's the like the ifs, the muts, the buts, and the maybes. And then that repair at the end of like that restorative, like, well, what can we do about what are we gonna do about it, right? Like what happens next, you know, it's not it doesn't just paint them as this like bad child. Um I think about I'm trying to get get it all out because there's so much, there's so much that comes into it. Um, but I think ultimately I think about my files um and my journey of getting my file, my own files, which is quite an unhuman process in itself, right? It's kind of like you fill in that subject to access request and you say you want everything and then you wait, and they're meant to get it back to you within 30 days, which we just know does not happen. Um I was actually with a local authority the other day whose average wait time is three years at the moment to get their files, which is just a disgrace, really. Like why that 30-day timeline exists, I don't know. So you're kind of expecting them in that 30-day window. Close to the end of that, you get another letter or an email to say, you know, it went, we don't have it yet. Well, let me know, let you know when we do. Um and I mine came just over a year later in a secure email in my inbox with no words, no, like, you know, maybe don't read this alone. Maybe, you know, this is what you're about to open, maybe do it with some support, take your time with it. I opened it up on my lunch break, which was a really bad idea. Um, and when I eventually got around to reading it six months later, because it sat in my inbox with like a wobbly chest, it was about eight hours worth of reading. And I was left with more questions than answers because and what I learned in that is the story that I was looking for, the things that I really remember from my childhood. I've got big gaps that that I'm that are missing, and a lot of the stuff that I do remember is surrounded in in the trauma. Um but I was looking for that for those stories to almost be validated, that somebody else saw what I was going through, that they heard me, and none of that was heard. My story was told by somebody else and their perspective of what mattered. And actually, in eight hours of reading, there was one line that I was left with, and it and it just read it read, Mary Ann wants to be a vet when she's older. How simple is that line? Right? How simple is that? Because in eight hours of reading about all of the challenges that were going on at home and at school and everywhere, that one line reminded me of who I was beyond all of that. This little girl at seven-year-old, seven years old that was obsessed with animals, that would didn't have friends but would sit in the playground playing with wood lice. Um, when I was like knit girl in school at that time, would talk to all the cats on my walk home from from school to meet my dad at the pub. Um, it brought that little girl to life of beyond all of the badness in that one sentence. And I think that's what we get to do as the adults, supporting our kids, is like create this tapestry of who they are beyond all of that. And it doesn't mean we deny the challenges, it doesn't mean we hide away from them because that's my story too, and they deserve to be honored, but it deserves to be honored in a way that that people understand and try and show compassion and also see me beyond that, right? Like I wish I had more of those lines. I wish I had more of yeah, yeah.

Colby 58:27

The um the trouble is who who they who who are they written for? That that's what gets in the way.

Mary-anne 58:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Colby 58:36

I was cringing a little bit in there, although I probably masked it quite well. But when you were talking about behavior behaviour, problem behaviors, complex behaviors, and that sort of thing. I was thinking, yeah, yeah.

Mary-anne 58:47

Yeah.

Colby 58:48

I've I've tried to soften it over the years. At the moment, I I'm I probably use behaviors of concern. Um, but while you've been speaking, I've been thinking what I should call them is behaviors that are not understood yet.

Mary-anne 59:04

Yeah. Yeah, but what that they're not. I like that. That's great. Really simple. Because like because also, yeah, because behaviors of concern, what is who is it concerning? What is it, what does it actually mean? And I think that's like if I was that child looking back on it uh no, because we have to be, we can't cringe at ourselves at this, right? Because we have to be shame and blame free. Um, because language is ever evolving, and actually just having the intention and the commitment to wanting to keep trying to get it right, is what our young they will feel that, they will feel that, right? And it's not about us, it's not like a tick box, just as healing isn't, which I used to think it was. I used to think I could fix myself, um, and I could, you know, exercise, eat well, do all of this stuff, and I would be fixed. There's no end point to it, just as there isn't with language. We're on the journey, and so that's like we can't cringe at it, but um, but I really like that. Say it again.

Colby 1:00:05

Behaviors that are not understood yet.

Mary-anne 1:00:07

Yeah, yeah, right.

Colby 1:00:09

And I mean to a LinkedIn post.

Mary-anne 1:00:16

And then you can describe some of those behaviors, right? Like you can like we can be descriptive of what we are seeing, um which then might give more curiosity as to where it comes from. And like, you know, I think I had this conversation with the children's um residential team the other day of like thinking about what she always does this behavior, and we were kind of saying, well, when then if we describe it and we can start to paint the picture around it, we can start to understand, well, this actually always happens on a Wednesday when she knows that she's seeing mum the next day, for example, you know. So you can start to paint a better picture around what else might be going on, which in turn will then help you understand what to do next, what what they might need. Yeah.

Self Care Boundaries And Being A Mum

Colby 1:01:00

Marian, I could talk to you um for much longer than the time we have available to us. Um, unfortunately, I don't I'd I'd love to talk to you perhaps another time about the care leaving care experience. Yeah, but I do also want to just come back to before we finish up, I wanted to come back to something that you said earlier on, which was about it being hard to work in this space as well, being a person who has lived lived it. Yeah, and I just I wonder I wonder what you do to look after yourself in in this space.

Mary-anne 1:01:38

Yeah, I do um I do a lot actually, but also not a lot at the same time. Um I live what is a really simple life, um, actually, that that teenage me would look at me now and go, oh my gosh, how boring. Um, but but I keep it quite simple, um, and I'm really mindful about what what I'm carrying, and I and I do try and create space away from it. But at the same time, I do feel really blessed that I that I have such a um like a passion for what I do. I think that I'm I feel really lucky to be able to do to feel so driven to do this. Um, but yeah, it's quite simple. I've got my little boy who is um two years old, so he takes up all of my spare time and he's amazing. And um, I mean, that's been a learning journey in itself, and actually something we could also talk about. I'm gonna be talking about it with my friend Becca Pierre at some point because we both became mums around the same time. And um, that journey in itself, being care experienced, is is really layered, um, especially because I I know we both look at our little boys and we love them so much. Like, cannot imagine letting um the stuff happen to him that happened to us. So that's a layer, that's another layer in it, right? Um but creating space for for us to play and and and have fun, and um we get in the water a lot, we've been at the beach this weekend, we walk a lot, um, we eat, we cook, we eat good food. It's just it's really it's the simple stuff, I think. It's coming back to the basics. I try and move my body. I'm not always good at it though. And I think it's having that compassion with yourself. I think some days are um are great and some months are great, and then one day you can have a day and it and everything will go out the window. And I used to really beat myself up about that, but it's actually just knowing that that's also okay because that little version of me that you know lived with the abuse is still in there, still trying to protect me, and I can have compassion with that. So there's a lot, there's also a lot of work around boundaries at some of the work I do now around um you you said earlier on about hearing how important it is that we hear from people that have grown up in the system and to not trauma mine. Um and how, you know, I've been invited to multiple spaces to come up and share your story and be the only person in the room that's not paid to be there, and we'll ask all of these questions about the in and outs of your life. And actually, I was so grateful for the opportunity to begin with that I just wanted to say yes to everything. So actually, we need to really support our care experienced young people to know what's safe to share and what's not, and how to look after themselves and and how to yeah, have that kind of equal play in in the room because um because that's a lot in itself, isn't it? So that I mean that's that goes into a whole nother conversation.

Colby 1:04:44

Yeah, yeah. Again, um we're not whenever I have the and the more podcast conversations I have, I guess, the the bigger my lot my back library that I have the to um um reflect on as I'm speaking to the guests before me. Um one of my earlier guests um is Adela Holmes. She's she's here in Australia, she works in this space here in Australia, she's had an extraordinarily long career in this space, and she said has said, and I've used this quote uh in in little snippets, but she says the great aspiration of children who grow up in care is an ordinary life. Which which is the first when when you said teenage me would would find my current life to be boring, but but it's interesting, is it? The great aspiration of well, the great aspiration of children who grow up in care is an ordinary life.

Mary-anne 1:05:48

Yeah, yeah. And I think that's the other thing when we talk about those strengths and the gratitude. I I pr I practice gratitude a lot. And actually I like like I think about In comp in in in when I think about some of my other friends, it's actually like I really i I I'm just so grateful every single day to to have this life that I do and and I think that's such a blessing, it's such a perspective to be able to really just really appreciate it. Like all of those little moments, it gives you good really good perspective on what matters, doesn't it? Yeah.

Colby 1:06:21

Yeah.

Mary-anne 1:06:22

It does.

Colby 1:06:23

Well I've very much I've really enjoyed our conversation, Mary Al.

Mary-anne 1:06:27

I want to read this poem to you.

Colby 1:06:29

Yes, you've got to do the

Poem The First Day Of Placement

Colby 1:06:30

poem. Yes.

Mary-anne 1:06:30

I've got to do it because um when we were talking earlier about that experience of I think um I think sometimes we can get caught up in, you know, get them in, uh, and and they've got the clean bed and and the food, and then we'll move on. And just reminding ourselves of what that might feel like is is um quite a powerful thing to do. So this poem was actually written by a supervising social worker called Tim McArdle. I've messaged him before to get permission to read his poems. Um so um it and it's called The First Day of Placement. Um again, that language of placement, we could talk about that. Um and um it's actually written about a young, a young person going into their first foster home, but the feelings, the feelings transcend, right? So um I the first time I read this, I felt like he kind of articulated some of what I couldn't articulate for myself at the time. Okay, the first day of placement. As I walked in the house, all the faces were new. They smiled at me and the dog came into view. They sat themselves down in what they called the lounge with pictures of children and family around. They speak of my mum, of my dad and my man, they speak like they think like they know who I am. It's private, my life, but they talk on and on, and she tells them of all the things that I've done wrong. I didn't ask to be here, but they tell me the rules, they tell me they're firm and won't be taken for fools, and so I look at my lap and turn off from their voices, and they mention some more about me having choices. The dog still looks happy, and so I stroke his head. The life of a dog would be better, I said. They looked at me and they squinted their eyes. The fact that I spoke must have been a surprise. I won't say any more. I don't know what they're thinking. And I hide the tears in my eyes by repeatedly blinking. I'm sorry for mum. And I hope she's alright. I hope that my parents won't start to fight. The worker stands up and says she must head. But before she leaves, we must go see my bed. So we're going upstairs and walk into my space, made up for a boy, but that's not the case. It isn't my room, and I'm feeling so numb. This house looks quite nice, but it's not got my mum. The worker then goes and I'm there by myself, and I stay in my room and put things on my shelf. I think of my school and my friends and my nan. I think who would care if I turned around and ran? I think that I got it wrong and I made a mistake. I should have stayed quiet for mum and dad's sake. And now they are sad. And so I breathe with a sigh, and I can't hold it back, and I'm starting to cry. But Liz hears the sound, and she comes up to see me. She doesn't say much, but she holds on to me. She ushers me down and offers me food. I'm not really hungry, but I don't want to be rude. The fridge is so full, and there is so much to choose, and clean plates and bowls and glasses to use. I end up with some toast, which I slowly pick. My chest is still feeling tight, and I'm still feeling sick. But Dave makes me hot chocolate, faces it down with a grin. He tells me that I'm safe and that I'll want for nothing. I don't really believe him. Because I've never felt safe. But for the moment at least, I might like this place. Loads of that, isn't it?

Colby 1:11:03

Okay, yeah.

Key Takeaways And Goodbye

Colby 1:11:05

It's powerful. What was the author's name again?

Mary-anne 1:11:09

Tim McCardle.

Colby 1:11:11

Tim McCardle.

Mary-anne 1:11:12

Yeah, yeah. Um, and I think then we talk about that connection to the child's voice, like him writing that as a supervising social worker, it's a bit of an insight, isn't it? And so you can get it. You can think, yeah, like reduce being able to articulate it, it's really powerful. Yeah. Um I think one of the things that really sticks me, sticks to me though, is like towards the end, is that like it's those small gestures again that just start to like maybe this will be alright. Yeah.

Colby 1:11:43

Those those few moves that that solve the continuum of possibilities. The Ruby's cube, yeah.

Mary-anne 1:11:52

Yes, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Colby 1:12:30

I feel better. Thank you. Thank you, Mary Ann, and it it has been a very good conversation, very enjoyable, and uh I hope to speak to you um again another time.

Mary-anne 1:12:44

Yeah, I would love that. We'll keep in touch for sure, and um yeah, thanks again for having me.