From Grief to Growth. Chris Gaskell on life after loss.

⚠️ Trigger warning: This episode contains discussions about suicide and suicide grief, which may be distressing for some listeners. Please take care of yourself, and if you need support, contact Lifeline on 13 11 14 in Australia, Samaritans on 116 123 in the UK, or visit findahelpline.com to locate support in your area.

Please note: There are moments in this episode where my mic dips in and out — I’m still learning and improving my podcast setup, but these stories are too important to hold back.

In this episode, I’m joined by Chris Gaskell — founder of MopTops Haircare and Nex Gen Organics by MTs. After losing her husband to suicide, Chris channelled her grief into building a brand that supports both kids and women through every stage of life — from tangles to thinning — while helping them feel confident, cared for, and seen.

Chris shares her journey from childhood invisibility to hairdressing, life in Australia, and the shock menopause, injuries, and business setbacks that came after her loss. We talk about why suicide grief is different, the language we use when talking about it, and how she’s finding lightness and strength in creating something new for herself in midlife.

This is a conversation about resilience, self-kindness, and giving yourself permission to live fully — even when life hasn’t gone to plan.

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Unravelling: The Diary of a Midlife Mess.

If something resonated with you today, I’d love to hear your thoughts, come join the conversation on Facebook and Instagram @themessymiddlelife or visit sharonwilkesburt.com
for more resources and support.

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Let’s Begin | You’re not too late, too much, or too lost. This is just the middle ... and there’s gold in here.

Transcript

 Before we dive into today's episode, I just want to give you a quick heads up. We'll be talking about suicide and suicide grief, which I know can be distressing for some listeners. If you need to please take care of yourself, skip this one or come back to it when you're in the right space. Also, you might notice my mic drops in and out a little during the conversation.

I'm still learning the ropes with podcasting, and right now my motto is Done is better than perfect. I'll get better gear and title at the Tech, but these conversations are too important to wait for perfection. Today's guest is Chris Gaskell, the founder of Mop Tops Haircare and Next Gen Organics by mts two brands created to support kids and women from tangles to thinning.

Chris's story is one of love loss and turning unimaginable grief into something that helps others to feel confident, cared for and seen. We talk about navigating suicide, grief, and the determination it takes to rebuild your life from the ground up. There's so much heart humor and honesty in this conversation.

So let's get into it.

I'm just gonna dive straight in there actually, because we, we talk about this, um, the, obviously the podcast is unraveling and we talk about unraveling in the sense that, you know, there had to be something that you had to unravel from and you didn't just arrive today as the woman that you are today. You know, there were certain, there were many Chrises that came before the Chris Gas that we have Satia today.

So I'm just going to take you back in my little time machine to teenage Chris. Oh. I was a middle child, so I always felt like I was invisible, you know, always going, Hmm. I'm like, 'cause, because I got an older si well she's passed now, but an older sister. Then there's me, there's the middle child, and then there's my brother, and then that, then there's the youngest, the twins.

Wow. So, so it felt like it didn't fit anywhere, you know? So it was constant battle. But I'm very different to my, to my family as well, you know? Um, and I just, yeah, I, I like, I, I wasn't a popular kid either. I was, I didn't really, um, you know, do a, you know, like, no. Like my sister, she used to work, you know, she was a wel trampoline champion and her brother was into rugby and.

The twins were the twins 'cause they were twins, you know? Yeah. And then they was me. And so, so obviously they all had their thing as it were. Yeah. Yeah. What was it, what were you doing? I mean, obviously there had to be something, you know, even if it wasn't kind of on a grand scale and people weren't noticing what were, what were you like in your own world?

Oh, you know, I mean, I was in, involved in, in my sister's shadow, following her, what she did. So I was doing some things, you know, like netball and baseball and that kind of stuff. And fairly, you know, like, you know, a big group of friends. I started, uh, my Saturday job when I was 14, you know, or when I started, started working in the little grocery store down the road.

But she couldn't pay me 'cause I was too young. So, because it was a grocery store, I was in the laundry. So, 'cause she couldn't pay me 'cause I was young. She'd gimme me a big basket of fruit to think, oh, I'm like, yeah. You know, so that was so good. And then, um, I mean, fruit's very healthy. I rather than bar of chocolates, but that's fine.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, but yeah, so, and then, um, I, I guess I, I started my apprenticeship when I was about 16, you know? Um, so I'm like the only one in my family with a trade. Right. You know, this, um, you know, and, and I was the first one to pass my, my driving test and things like that. Right, okay. Um, yeah, during little moments of, of stand by.

Yeah. Yeah. Things that you did, um, who did, I mean, because I know obviously you've got this long career in hairdressing, but when you were, you know, as that teen, as that kind of middle child, teen, who did you want to be when you grew up? I wanted to be a, I wanted to, to be, um, a makeup artist. That was my thing.

And I wanted to work for the BBC. Yes. And I went to the BBC, or I, I, I, I used to do this lady's hair that was, um, in the BBC. Um, and, um, she said to me, I'll give him a call or, you know, and to see where you've gotta go. And then they, they got back to me and they said, oh, you, you, um, you've gotta go, uh, get a career in hairdressing or beauty.

Uh, we don't train here. And I was like, oh, good. It. And then so, so then I, back then, see beauty wasn't really a thing like it is now. You know? It was like, oh, if you get a facial, you know, but now it's like, it's full on mask what you do. And, and, but I, all I thought of was hairdressing and I always thought, I thought to myself, wow.

If people will always need their hair cut, you know, and even if I have children, I'll be still be able to cut hair, you know? Yeah. Um, and so I started my apprenticeship in a really big salon, um, in, in, um, Wales and, um, did my apprenticeship and, you know, so that was early on you, so I was qualified when I was 18.

If you, if we look at, um, Chris in her twenties, so what if, you know, you've got this Harrison crew, you've got this apprenticeship behind you. What did success look like to you at that point in life? Just that I probably wanted a salon, you know? Um, so yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll sort of do that. That'll be good. Um, and then, I mean, then it took a two, I was working in this really good, this really amazing salon, and the beautician was not, you know, it didn't live far from me and we were having this big do.

And then she, she invites a couple of, um, uh, air hostesses to the, to the par, you know, to her party. She goes, you know, you should, you should meet them, you know? And I said, Jenny, yeah. She goes, you should, you should do that. You should do that as a job. And I said, oh, yeah, as if, and, um, anyway, these girls, I was chatting to 'em and they said, you should apply.

I think you'd, you'd be really good at it. So I thought, oh, why not? I was just out for anything at that time, and I thought that would be good. That'd be a great way to see the world as well. Yes. Yeah. This wasn't what, this wasn't the world. This was a stepping stone. So it was just Europe, right? Yeah. So, um, I, and because I was quite alone, even there was in this family of seven, including my parents, right?

Um, I, I got the, I got the interview to go for this, the, the, um, the job. And I was like, whoa, this is, there was 3000 went for the job and only a hundred jobs. Right. Okay. And I, and I went in through this interview and, um, because I bought this beautiful dress and I thought I was the, the bee's knees. I dunno if you've ever hit Wallace.

Oh, I remember Wallace, yes. Yeah, yeah. Wallace. I had this be, and I was a bit of a Wallace queen. I left Wallace and I and I, this Wallace dress. As I was walking out one of the, because there was three people interviewing and one of them had come down to the, to the door, to open the door to let us all out.

There was good long, you know, long interview. And she said to me, I love you dress. She goes, oh, where'd you get that from? Well, I walked out there like a peacock. I thought I was, if nothing else, if I didn't get the job, I felt like 10 for 12. She's commented on your dress. That's you commented on my dress, the made, so I got through to the second interview and I got the job.

Yeah, so I worked on the airlines then for a while. Um, loved that. And that was, that was, it was a hard work, but it was good. I enjoyed it. And then of course, when I finished, um, I went back into working in, in a salon, and then I found out I was pregnant. So, yeah, so then I had my, my, um, my oldest is 25, so then I, I guess then as we move through the decades, like 25 into 30, because of course, I'm guess, I'm guessing there's like some mothering going on at this time.

Yeah. What was, then, who were you in that period and who, what was driving you from your twenties and your thirties? Um, uh, I think just dry, like, like. I don't think I, I, I ever, ever gave her, I was really like, determined to, to continue my career as well. But I wanted the best for my daughter. 'cause, 'cause my me and, um, her, her father and I didn't stay together.

Right. You know, so then we, you know, we, we sort of split and so I was a single mum. Right. Okay. So, so that was quite, um, full on. And even when I had her 25, I was a geriatric mum. They told me, oh God. And I'm like, what? I felt like the language is shocking, isn't it? Be told 25 that you're a geriatric mother.

Why? Okay. I know. I was thinking and then, you know, you look back now, you think geriatric mother, I was too young. You know, I just continued on being me and being, um, you know, just, you know, work from home. I, I, I did then open a salon with a friend. Um, then I felt like I was, I, I carried the blood, the, the, the brunt of it all.

So it didn't, that didn't, I think that that's how long, must have lasted about 12 months, 18 months. So then obviously this is this real drive because you're a single mum as well at this point. So that again, is like, you know, were you, were you getting support along that way through that time? Not really.

Not really. You know, my mother and I felt that, that, um, that sort of way that, you know, like you made your bed basically. Wow. Okay. So very rare, you know, very, like I, I, I was lucky enough to meet, meet someone through hairdressing and who became a really great friend of mine. Um, and they would, they gave me all the help under the sun.

There was no support family wise. Yeah. Even though they were all around me, you know? Then who were you in this time? Because obviously, you know, it's very, I mean, I often like will say that I don't remember who I was through my thirties because it's such a busy decade. I mean, you've just kind of, you spent your twenties kind of establishing who you think you are.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and then of course you have children and they, that you hand over a, you know, most of your identities to just being a mother. Yeah. Um, so I don't actually, I don't recall having much understanding of who I was during my thirties. Would Is would you say the same to you? Same. Same.

Yeah. It was this, it was a bit of a blur to be honest. Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, like, then I, um, I met my, um. Partner that I came to Australia with, and I came to Australia when I was 35. Yeah. So then as you then move into that period from your thirties into your forties, and see this is presenting now this new life, you know, this new partner, this new world, this new country, all of these new things.

So, um, what was, what, tell me about that decade for you. What was that like for you? It was really, really, really tough because then I then, um, we decided to have a child. There was a, there's an 11 year gap between my girls. Oh, okay. You know, and I was never gonna have any more children, you know, like he wasn't gonna have, you know, and, uh, but anyway.

He taught me round and, 'cause I'd been with him nine years before I came to Australia with, with him 'cause he was already here, you know? Oh, come over and have a look. Come and have a look, see if you like you, you know, and I, and, and you know, of course the rose color glasses were on and I was like, yeah.

You know, brought, you know, sort just sold everything up and, you know, on the plane. And I, and I funded it all myself. Okay. You know, and you've got a child on board as well. So How old is your daughter at this point? She was about 10, 9, 10? Yeah. Yeah, she was nine. Yeah. Yeah, she just two nine. So, so yeah. And then sort of, you know, moved, moved into her Perth and trying to, you know, get her settled 'cause she thought we were going home, you know, we're just on our holidays again.

Okay. That's is quite shock for a 9-year-old. And yeah, she thought, you know. This is a big trip, like twice in, within six months, and we're back to leave. So she's, she's a world traveler at this point, and she just thinks this is it. We go to these lovely places, then we go home again, and then mum land in Australia and stay unpack the case.

Okay. There's quite a lot for a 9-year-old to get around. Hundred percent. Yeah, definitely. Without a doubt in my mind. You know, I mean, she was a little Trojan. She really was, you know? Yes. Yeah. Bless her. Um, you know, and, um, you know, we, we moved a couple of times, um, in Perth before we got to our, moved before we built her house.

The, the stresses and strains of having people come into stay IE soon to be mother-in-law was not good. Right. It wasn't good. And she'd come for three months at a time. And then, then she came the second time for the three months. Oh, I was, the first time she came, I was pregnant. So hormones were all over the place and she, I was just, you know.

Mess. Yeah. And then, um, she came again. Then, uh, when, uh, my youngest was born for another three months, and so, and she calls me to have, um, postnatal depression. It was awful. Absolutely dreadful. So that was the end of our relationship, basically. Yeah. Wow. Okay. So now you find yourself, so you are back and you are in Australia, and now you've got two children.

Are you still hairdressing through this time or is this Um, yes or, yeah, hairdressing, just in and out of hairdressing. Um, just, you know, keeping us above water basically. Yes. But I, I was determined to give my girls a good life. Yeah. So to make this work for you over here? Yeah. Okay. Determined. Absolutely.

And I remember my, my auntie wanted to go and come and live in Australia, but the night they had all their bags packed and the night before they would. She, she pulled the pin. She said, I'm not, we're not going. And she said it was the biggest regret of your life. Yeah. And she said to me, Chris, even if you go and you go for five years and you come back, you've done it.

Yeah. And she said, just give it a real red hard shot. Give it a go. Because I regret it every day. Yeah. I think, I mean, like, I think a lot of people would, um, would be able to sort of relate to that. I think that was certainly one of my drivers for coming here in the first place was to not have the regret of having not at least tried it.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You've gotta give it once it's in your mind and once, once you've got that opportunity as well. Yes. You know, like, like, and so I was determined, I was here and I was determined. I was an older mom. I had Morgan when I was 37. Yeah. So you really were a geriatric mother at that time.

I was geriatric mother. Were geriatric 25. Yeah, exactly. And so, um, yeah, so I said we sold that house and I go into a rental and, you know, I just thought like, I really have to give this a red hot shop for these, for my girls. Yeah. I really do. You know? Yeah. And, um, it was hard. It was not the easiest thing I've ever done in my life.

It was the hardest thing ever. Yeah. Um, and I think two years, then I was kind of by myself and then I met my husband. I mean, um, to this point, I mean there's, there's like so much determination. Which I think is almost like a thread this far in your life, you know, that's kind of got you to all of these places and so much of this have done by yourself as well, really up to this point.

Yeah. Yeah. So, so tell me, um, how did this change for you? So obviously you met your husband and then how did, so let's talk about that. Yeah. Um, so I met him and um, that was really difficult because having two end of the spectrum children, which was as in, as in age group. So I have this terrible two child.

And then I have this teenager always so impressed that people are able to do that. My, there's two years between my kids and so when they were teenagers, they're both teenagers and of course you talk to your teenagers very differently to how you would talk to your 3-year-old. Um, and of course, you know, your language, your tone, all of those things are very different.

So I'm always different. So impressed. It's so difficult to be able to talk at one level to one child and then turn to your three major, because obviously 3-year-old have got their own. That's right. You know, things going on. Yeah. And um, and then it'd be, it'd be completely different as you say that kind of like, don't you worry, it's okay.

She's just gonna go and do blah la la but you are all good. We're not allowed to use those words. Then, you know, it was, it was hard then to introduce my then partner. Yeah. It took me a while. It wasn't something that I did quickly. No. But then I thought, I don't wanna keep on being this cloak and dagger relationship.

Yes. From my children, but unless it's, it's real. You are not coming into my family. No, for sure. You know, but also, you know, this time, you know, you're still a young woman, you know, you've, you've got these, you know, you've got two children, you've immigrated to another country. You've kind of done all of this stuff on your own, essentially.

Mm-hmm. For the most part, you know, and these are so many, so many challenges here for anybody, you know? Yeah. And now you're trying to navigate a teenager and a, a toddler and this new relationship. Are you building your business at this point? I mean, what's, what's moving through at this point? I've just got a job at the airport working, I was working on the ground at the airport in, um, cosmetics.

And, um, so I, I met, uh, my husband and I introduced him to my oldest, and she just wasn't a. I wasn't happy because it was us three for a long, you know, couple of years. Yeah. Yeah. And then this man comes in and, you know, but he was so good to her, to them, to the both of them. He was so good to him. Then my mother got diagnosed with ovarian cancer and then I kind of, we, we are just in this new relationship as well.

Um, and he didn't know whether he wanted to be in the relationship because he's taken on this little child, this child, his, these kids have grown up, right? So he wasn't sure whether he wanted to take on a, a baby if you like. And so I had to fly back to the UK to see my mother, um, for a couple of weeks to say goodbye and you know, all the rest of it.

Um, and that was tough. And then when I came back, that actually concreted mine and his relationship 'cause he'd missed me so much and he said, oh, I think why don't you move in? And then I moved in with him and we bought a house the following July. We got married the following year. So we, we were together for two years, or just over two years.

Yeah. And then we got married in our garden, and I only really had my Chris about 12 months after we got married. Okay. Then the rest of the time he was just sick. Um, 'cause he was, he's in the, he was in the print industry, so he was quite sort of, he was headhunted by this, this one of the biggest print companies in Perth.

So he was the production manager and there was like, there was about, I don't know, 50, 50 people working in this business. And um, but then the guy above him, um, got sacked and so he, he, they gave him that job, but they know. Failed his job. So he was doing the two jobs, and so he was getting more and more stressful.

Lots of things were going on, you know, things that, uh, that he hadn't dealt with when he was before we met, that were coming out and stuff like that. Mm-hmm. And, um, with the work, printing is very stressful. Long story short, he had a breakdown with the, the stress, like really big. Like he was trying to hide it, throw time, and then all of a sudden this day was just too much.

Okay. You know, we had to take him to the, the doctors. They, as soon as they put him on medication, that was the end of him. He was, he was, that was the, that was the beginning of the end. I, I guess you had this kind of period of stability almost for a few years. You know, you've kind of, yeah. You know, you've gone through all the upheaval, the girls are over here.

You've, you've got, through your teenager, you've got this new relationship and I guess there's this kind of like the honeymoon period, but just a kind of period of stability, I guess. Yes. Through that time. Yeah. I mean, did you, did you sense that stability? Were you feeling that this is kind of going well?

Yeah, I, I felt, I felt stability for the first time. I felt loved for the first time. Um, I felt supported. Um, everything, everything I felt, I felt all good things. He was a good husband, you know. Yeah. He was, he was a good man. Um, and until he got sick and I, that was just taken away by medication. He just wasn't the person that I married.

Right. You know, and they put him on his medication and. Then, um, it was, it was awful. It was, it was, it was like a living nightmare, if I'm honest. Um, trying to literally keep him alive because he'd be on, I'd only have, but when he'd get up in the morning, I'd have literally a small window before the, he had to take his meds, but he wasn't even, he was like an old man.

He was only 48 Yeah. At this time. But he was like an old man 'cause he'd be so drugged from the sleeping tablets. Okay. And whatever else. He'd get up and he'd kind of get himself to a place where he'd have a cup of tea, make me a cup of tea, and then, um, he'd have to take his tablets. So how, and this is obviously just as a cause, this is kind of breakdown of stress from his work and like how did this manifest in terms of his behavior?

I mean, obviously this is very hard for you 'cause you are now obviously still bringing up. Children, you know? Yeah. You've got your girl who's still a little girl, and then you've got this husband. I mean, was this, are we talking around the clock care? Are we talking kind of, you know, how did this, um, well, I didn't, I wasn't awake.

I wasn't, I wasn't really like, 'cause he kept saying to me, you're not, you're not my mother. You know? Yeah. And then he had to fight, then he had to fight his case. Then, you see, then he was on, he had to go on sick leave, then he had to go on, um, workers' comp because of the pressure and stress. Um, I mean, he, he functioned quite well, but he was not well and he was so drugged with these medication, this medication from the doctor.

Um, and then he had to go to a, a board to fight his case. And he was an intelligent guy. And I don't know how that man sat in front of that board in this brain fog. Yeah. To try and. Fight his case. But he came out today and he was, you know, like we had to, he didn't have a job. Wow. But he was paid out and we had to kind of, let's then reassess the situation.

'cause I was working at the airport. Yes. Yeah. As well. So, and so then I couldn't leave him. So I had to stop the airport. Okay. Because I couldn't leave him and I didn't want him to be looking after my girls. I didn't want him to have that responsibility. Right. You know, you know, nothing, nothing, nothing.

Because he did start to drink a bit more then. Okay. But I didn't want him to have that because they, as much as he, he took us all as a package. I didn't want him. 'cause I'm such a, I've done it on my own for so long. Yeah. I didn't want him to have that responsibility. I felt that I needed to be there. So we were able to, in this, in my house, we had a great room that we could set up a, a, a salon from home.

Okay. So I was able to do, set up a salon from home. Right. Okay. And so I was able to work from home for a while then. Okay. Um, which was good. And then we said like, we did a few bits to the house because we and mom really moved into this house. And then, um, we, I was looking for something where I could pick up, pick the ball up as in finances and, 'cause I didn't want him to go back to where he was nearly died Really?

'cause the stress was too much. And so then we, I, I was doing all this research and development and then he started looking, you know, and I said to him, do you know I've always wanted to open the kids' salon? I don't know why. Don't ask me why. It was just one of those things I had in my mind, you know? And I did some more research.

The research came out at that time was um, out to a 40 billion market. The kids salons were taking, um, 11 billion. And it was growing, you know, and I said, there's, there's, I think there's one down south of the river. I said, how cool would that be if we didn't wanna pin June up somewhere? You know, we can have a look around and see if there's any, any, you know, spaces to, you know.

And then he started looking and getting more, you know, I thought, so I had to like a step up with my, with my trade basically. Yeah. Is he recovering at this point? Is he kind of like, is there a spark of life? No. No, because he was so, he was so, um, he was, but he was still foggy. Yeah. Through, because he was on medication.

I, I thought if we open this salon, he'll give him something to focus on. Yeah. The purpose. And yeah, he's behind the scenes doing, doing all, all the businessy stuff. 'cause that was his forte. His strengths, my weaknesses. My weaknesses were his strengths. Yeah. We worked together. Yeah. It was really, really cool.

And we were looking at franchise in mock tops. We, we got, we even had meetings with a franchise company and all that, and he was the one that orchestrated all that. Right. Um, which was amazing. So we paid some money towards it just to start the ball rolling. And, um, yeah, we, you know, he, he'd done so well. So like, even, even to the point where when we were, when we were thinking of a name, um, the name, um, that came up was, um, I dunno, I can't even remember what it was, but he'd gone to print and then one night he's, um, and I always say this and it makes me laugh every time he's booking dinner.

And, and he goes, Hey. He said, when are you gonna do my laptop? Said That's it. And he said, what? There it is. And he said, I said, that's the name, that's mock chops haircuts for kids. And he went, Ooh. And, and I said, no, that that is it. And he was over the moon. He was chef a bit that he, you know, thought of the name I guess.

And then that was it. He, he started his, his creative flaky of the font of mock tops is he created that. Yeah. So you'll never see that font anyway, because he created that, um, the, the lettering. Um, so he and, and him and his, a guy that he knows, um, that used to work for Water Brothers. Yeah. Um, he created the kids.

Okay. On the, on the, so that's why I can't change it. Yes. No, no, no. And it's so much part of the, of the brand that you've developed anyway through this. Yes. But so obviously through this time, I mean, this is like, there's a lot going on through this time in, in terms of like, not just building a business, but you know, I mean, you would retrain yourself.

You've come together, you are, you know, you've put your strengths, you put your, you know, you, things that you both good at together. And this is a real. There's a real purpose for this. You know, there's something that's really kind of great behind this, this great collaboration coming together of minds really, where obviously, you know, you've got this, you've got the skill and the background, and he's got all these sort of design ideas.

So was at this point, obviously you say he was medicated, but is there still, is there this spark? Is that this kind of like, you know, we're, we're onto something here? Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. He was, he was very, because he is very business minded, so, so, you know, so he, he had that entrepreneurial, um, mindset anyway.

Yeah. And so he, like, I, I just wanted him to buzz again. You know, I wanted him to, to, to have something to live for. It was tough running the salon, watching how he was bringing up my girls and trying to keep the balls, all the balls in the air. And of course, your front face, your front face of the business as well.

So obviously whatever's going on in the background, nobody knows about because those clients that come into that salon are just seeing this lovely, friendly, you know, front of face person who's doing the job. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. But there's a lot going on behind, behind the scenes Yeah. For that. Yeah.

Yeah. He was so good. He was so good at what he did, but he just, the, I I, you know, I reckon the, the medication that he was taking, it just, it went, it was getting the, the, the, the grams were going up, not coming down. So he was getting out of it. Yeah. And, um, yeah, it, it just, it just went on and on, you know, and, and I mean, I was e.

So stayed. There was one time he did try and take his life. Um, and then he was, he was on, um, suicide watch in June, but was, so then I would go in the morning, take the kids to school, then go to McDonald's. 'cause he, like, he, he didn't like the hospital for, so I'd have to go there, give him his food, go and open the salon, then close the salon, sort the kids out, go back to there the day and, and so it went on.

I don't even know, I don't even know how I'm sitting here today. I don't, you know, we talk about unraveling at this point, you actually haven't even unraveled because you are just raveled You are probably wound up tight like a, you know, tight spring at this point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, how are you getting through this?

I didn't think about me. Not a, not a second did I think about me. It was just about how everyone else was feeling and how I could keep him alive. You know, um, and didn't want my girls to go through a loss, I guess. Yeah. You know, I, I mean, I know where this story goes. I mean, if you are comfortable to, to continue and you, you've, you know, be sensitive for you, then, you know, feel free to kind of continue down this line.

But obviously this is, has to be on your terms. No, I look, I, if, if it can help someone else, you know, I've done a lot of work on myself, which is, which has brought me to the point where I can talk about it because if, if it helps another person, then, then I've done my job kind of thing. And the more we talk about it, the better it gets.

Yeah. Or the, the less stigma there is to it. 'cause there's, there's been a, you know, there's a stigma to it. Um, or it is not as bad, but it is, you know, it's, it, we need to keep talking about it for sure. And that's where that it needs to go kind of thing. Yeah. Because Sure. You know, as much as it's, it's, it's uncomfortable.

It is uncomfortable to talk about suicide and especially when you, when you lose a, a loved one to suicide. Um, it's really tough. It's really tough. But if you don't talk, we, we, we, we we're stuck. We're stuck in, in, in, you know, and, um, so yeah, I mean he, like, he, he, he took his life in the July, but he tried three times previously.

I don't even know how, how to even, but how, like, I didn't even think about it. 'cause he tried before I met him. Suicide wasn't on my radar back then. No. So when he said that, that, you know, he told me what had happened and this, this is what he did. And I said, oh wow. But I ne but because this is a few years on from that, or, you know, two or three years on from that, I thought.

I thought stupidly that that was it. But when he got sick, like he was great, you know, but when he, he was obviously low, um, and hid it well. And then of course when he had the breakdown from the, the stress and the bullying from work, that was the catalyst. That was the absolute catalyst. Um, and um, 'cause he's a people person.

He loves to, you know, he was a, just would help you, give you his last, you know, he, you know, my girls, if they said to him, jump up, he'd say, how high would you want go? You know, he was just so, such a good bonus dad. 'cause you know, Morgan called him dad, um, and she was 10 when he passed. And um, she was absolutely, I didn't know how to tell it.

That's gotta be one of the hardest things. When someone does this kind of death. Yeah, because don't, I've, I've experienced my mom passing at 69. Yeah. Right. She, and that's only four years more than me. Yeah. She had ovarian cancer. I experienced that. But I know why she does. How she dealt with what, why. But my father went, lived to a, a ripe old age of 80 something.

I dunno. And he had, he was Alzheimer's. I, I know that. Um, so I know that grief, but this grief is nothing like it. And to actually, to actually, um, try and tell, and that a 10-year-old child who idolized him, idolized him, how that he's gone is gotta be the most, how. Heart wrenching. Yeah.

Thing

because she said, mom, I could've saved, I could've saved him. People identify to do, you know, all these things. Oh. You know, and she couldn't get, you know, she couldn't get it, you know? And, um, just, just, it just, it just blows my mind, you know? But I couldn't tell her straight away and I couldn't. And it, you kind of 'cause you as a mum, you're trying to protect Yeah.

Protect them. You don't want to be hurt. You don't want 'em to hurt, you know, and eventually we had to tell her, um, 'cause she was staying over her father's place and, and we had to kind of bring her home and, and then we had to tell her why he wasn't there. And it was just, I didn't actually say that he took his life straight away because it was, it was too much.

Yeah. Too much to, to, to bear. I couldn't tell her the truth, but it took me, I'd say another two or three years before I could actually tell her what he did, because I just could not give her that weight, you know, of emotion and grief. Yeah. You know, and people don't realize the, uh, the weight that you carry every day, even now.

Yeah. You know, it doesn't go away, you know, and, and with, with suicide grief, it's, it's about, um, sinking or swimming. And I chose to swim 'cause I'm a swimmer. Yeah. I don't swim, Don, do you know what I mean? But I'm a swimmer. But I think this, as we've talked before, this thread of determination through your life.

You, you're a swimmer. Yeah. You know, this is what you've always done. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and the reason how I know this, even more so now is kind of given, brought, brought it to, to me, is I lost my sister last year because three years previously, my nephew, whose son took his life and she never got over it.

She never ever got over it. And she literally tin to the bottle. And then, so, so it's just such a ripple effect, isn't it, from these things? Oh, it's, it's a terrible, it's terrible. You people and the people that are left behind, they don't get the support that they should. You know, they, it is all about the suicide prevention.

To stop the people doing it. Okay, I get that. That's good. And, and that's a great thing. And it's getting more, more and more. I'm hoping to do a walk next month, um, for suicide prevention. You know, you just never, ever get past it. And it's really, and I, and I hear, I know her pain, you know? Yeah. But, but even, even the pain of, like, I kind of got an idea of what it's like to lose a child, but I've also, I can't explain, you know, like when you, so the, the different grief griefs for different people.

So when you lose your, your life partner, the person you love, your everyday person, you say goodnight to wake up in the morning, to, you have your cup of tea with, or when that's gone, all of a sudden when it's ripped away in a, in, in five minutes. And you sat there going, I dunno what happened then? I don't know.

I can't, my, my heads can't go. Can't, can't, can't understand. No. You know, um, when you look back, when you look back at that, what do you, what do you wish that more people understood about where you were at?

I just wish people,

I wish people would just be a bit more

understanding the suicide grief is really different. Really different.

And just be kind and just listen. We don't want you to fix it. Because you can't. But

I just wish people would just be kind and just be, watch their words, you know? And people say, commit. I don't want people to say commit. It's to lost to, or by suicide. Because when you say commit, commits a crime. Yeah. And that just makes it worse for the people left behind and then they don't talk and they start to get small and they don't wanna be seen.

And they don't wanna be heard. 'cause they feel the stigma and the, and the, and the embarrassment, the, all those feelings that make you feel small, you've already gotta deal with this shit of a, sorry, um, death. Whoa. Come to terms with it without people looking at you and feeling, you know, like, oh, you know, oh, he husband took his life, or, you know, committed suicide and this is it.

You know, we use, we just, we throw these words around, and I guess it's just, you know, it's just words that we hear, but we don't actually fully understand the impact of those words on the people that are going through that. And, you know, I know that we've had this conversation before and, you know, you, you, you kind of think, wow, it's, it's almost like those two words would automatically go together as a, as an, as an understanding, you know, as, as just how this, um, type of death is spoken about.

Yeah. But you're absolutely right because there's this level of criminality to that, you know? Yeah. And then of course there's the, there's the shame that are left for those behind on top of every other bloody emotion that you are going through. So I think. There's so much in this and so much in what you are doing by talking about this, because it helps to kind of get that message out there that, you know, just be careful of your language.

Just be mindful of it, you know, it's lost to, it's lost, it's a lost to, you know, don't, don't double the, or, you know, quadruple the agony of it by, yeah. Oh, it, it's terrible. It's like, it feels, it's like a stab to the heart, you know? You go, I wish, I just wish people wouldn't say it. And I, I, I belong to a group and then in the uk and it's called Suicide and Cope.

And they did a, they did a, um, uh, um, you know, like a pole and that came out top the people to say, please don't say commit. Yeah. Because if we don't, we don't commit cancer. We don't commit, uh, any illnesses. It's an illness of the mind. Yes, for sure. And people need to understand that and, and, and reach out for help and reach, you know, if they need it.

You know, don't be ashamed, you know, because it can grab hold and it, and it, it, there's no, you know, it can grab hold of anyone. It doesn't matter who you are, you know, it can happen to anyone at any time and you can just snap and nothing's the same, you know? Then when that, when that happens, then it's, and you know, you know, even when someone passes of, um, say cancer in the hospital or like my parents, you know, dying and like my sister and stuff, it's not like you can say goodbye.

No, it's not like you can, it's not like everyone understands, no, it's then all of a sudden there's a crime scene, there's police involved interviews, you gotta do. You, you are like going, I never did it. You know, like that kind of thing. Yeah. Um, like it is a crime scene, literally. Police have to be called, you know, coroner's reports and autopsies and all that, all that stuff.

So even the very, um, practical sense of what you go through following is very different. Yes. In terms of, you know, just in, in there isn't that opportunity to say your goodbyes. There isn't that opportunity to kind of, um, get some peace around it or any of those things because it's treated with such, um, you know, all this sort of bureaucracy.

I, I guess, but also, you know, the fact that obviously, you know, it's, it's, it's considered criminal. There's police there, there's coroners. Mm-hmm. There's, you know mm-hmm. All this Yeah. Other stuff going on. And this is all while you are dealing with the actual loss. Loss and. Your kids and, you know, business and everything else that's going on.

Mm-hmm. Um, I mean, all of this must have changed you in ways that I guess you are still discovering a hundred percent. A hundred percent. And, you know, on, on a positive. Um, yes. It's, it's really given me, um, this, I'm not strong, you know, I'm not, I, I got this thing fragile and strong. This, I am not strong, I'm fragile.

I just choose to be. Some days I'm a, you know, I need to fight to, to get through.

In the months and years that followed, life didn't exactly go easy on her. On top of the grief, Chris was thrown into a sudden shock menopause, which in itself is enough to stop any woman in her tracks, and her body seemed determined to test her. At every turn, there were accidents, serious injuries and business setbacks.

That would've been enough to break even the most resilient person. But somewhere in the middle of all of that, she decided to keep showing up, and it was a network and event, almost by chance that she met someone who would introduce her to the product range. That became the next chapter of her story.

And then. I was networking, and this is the, this is the joys of networking. And I was chatting to this, this lady, I've never seen her since. So she's obviously come into my life for a reason and went no, haven't seen again. Yeah. As people did, she said, oh, I was saying that one of the dreams that we had, Chris and I had, that we wanted to make our own product, let line for kids, but there was nobody here in Australia, in Australia that would make like startups.

You know? I found this amazing guy and she, she gave me his number, uh, in Blue Mountains. He was in, he was in wa he used to work for Sebastian. Hey, K. Oh, okay. Yes. Yeah. And a really great guy. He said, oh, kid Range. He said, yeah. I said, I think, you know, I said, it's great to start 'em off with, you know, the kids that I've always done, they've always used Kids Range, but I said, it'd be awesome if I could have an Australian brand, you know?

Yeah. Um, made for the Australian climate as well, you know, and he said, oh, anyway, he sent me all the details and before we knew it, um. The dream that Chris and I had, I was able to, to make that his legacy. Yeah. So, you know, so I'm able to, so the mop Tops kids brand Yeah. Is is is his legacy. Yeah. Which is lovely.

And I feel him every day. You know, it's, it's great. And it's a lovely positive, you know, it's, um, and I know he'll be proud and I can see him smiling and going, well done. Awesome. You know? Yeah. And then, um, so that's my, my aim with that. That's, that, that's kept me alive. Yeah. It's kept me alive. It is. I, it is kept me, and I think because I was doing it on my own before we got together, I think that was a good thing because it made me stronger to continue now.

Yeah. Do you know what I mean? I, 'cause I'm like, you've done it before, you can do it again. Yeah. And then with the next gen or the, the next gen My ts is me being a butterfly and, and growing my wings away from the kids range. Yeah. So that's me. That's him. The kids. Yeah. Because that's his logo. So this next gen by MTSS is me.

And I know that for you in this time, there has been, you know, God, I mean, obviously apart from the fact that, you know, the universe made you slow down by breaking all the bits of your body parts off. Yeah. Um, were there, and I know that you've done so much work on yourself and there's been so much healing, but were there any particular moments that stand out as like, turning points in your healing?

Um, there's a lot. There's, there's, you know, like, it, it's just about like. Being kind to yourself and just like I now do, I self-care myself a lot and I, you know, I, you know, and, and I don't think it's like, it took me a, a while to, to think about me. And the turning point was for, for me to start looking at me and who I am and what I need in my life is me.

And stop thinking about everyone else and their dog and just be present with me and, and not, and not feel guilty about it. And not feel guilty about living your life and not feel, you know, guilty about what happened. You know? Um, because that's heavy. Yeah. I mean, grief is heavy enough without guilt, without shame, without all of those sort of extra layers.

I mean, did, did, did building that business, did that help you to heal or did it bring up new layers of grief? Um, building a product range, it's giving me strength. It, I'm channeling my grief into positive, into a positive energy, into that, into the products. And it's from my heart that I make these products.

The, the legacy keeps me grounded, keeps me, and, and the, the grief is channeled into a positive that keeps his memory alive. So what feels different now about creating something for you rather in the memory of somebody else? Yeah. Because there must be, I mean, is there any kind of, um. Lightness in not having that, the weight of that legacy in a sense that this is now Yes.

You, for you. Yes. Yeah. I feel like, like a weight has lifted. Do you know what I mean? I feel me.

I haven't left him, but I've grown. Yeah. You know, and I, I feel very privileged to be able to channel me into something else and, and not feel heavy. I feel lighter. I feel, um, I feel like me. I feel like it feels like I, it's funny how it feels. It feels like that's Chris's legacy. Yes. It's my, they're my products and I've created them, but this is.

A separate thing, and it's me and it's who I am, and it's keeping me going, and it's keeping me. So it doesn't, that's not, that's about channeling my grief in, into mock tops and today like this. But this is about channeling everything positive that I've, that I've done. And this is, this is, it's lighter. It feels lighter.

Next gen feels lighter for me.

I didn't think I'd get there.

I didn't think I'd get there. But I'm on the way. I'm still on the way, God, sorry. No, not at all. I mean, you know, this is, it's such a story. It's such a story of. And I've said this a few times through this, obviously, you know, we talk about the threads that follow us through their lives, through our lives, and this is such a story of just determination.

And I know that you said that you are not strong, but my God, you know, there's some stuff that you've gone through and when people ever meet you for the first time, they would not have a clue that, that you have any of this, you know, you are this bright, bubbly, positive joy of a human, you know, to, to meet and to chat.

And you are so full of laughter and positivity that, you know, people meeting you for the first time would have absolutely no clue that there's this kind of depth of life experience because you don't, you know, that that's not the first thing. People, you know, you, you don't greet them with that. No. You know, you don't greet them with your pain.

Yet there is so much, I think within your pain, you have this. Gift, first of all, that you are able to give to people in terms of like education, because of course there is, there needs to be an understanding around the language that we use around this for starters, you know? Yeah. And this, um, this sense of kindness that you've been able to offer to yourself that has now enabled you to create, you know, your next gen.

And because you know, to be, you know, to be free of all that and that this is for you. Yes. Yes. Definitely. So, what, what would you, what's your season now if you were to say you're in this season now, where are you, where are you today? I'd say I can quite categorically say that I'm in a good place. I'm, and I, and I don't feel guilty about saying that.

No. It's been a work in progress. I, I've, don't get me wrong, I have my little down, you know, my little, I might fall off the ladder a little bit here and there, but I, I'm holding on. Um, and I, I, I, I, I don't want it, I don't want the, it doesn't define who I am, what happened. No. You know, I'm, I'm moving forward and I am, my season now is, is to live my life, be positive and, um, help people through their, you know, if I can help someone that has been through specifically, um, suicide death.

Yeah. Um, I think I, I, sometimes I think I can do it and sometimes I think of God because it, it takes me back. It can pull me back and I don't, that's why I didn't do a lot of counseling in the beginning. 'cause I didn't wanna keep revisiting. You can only, you can only offer help from a, a healed place. Yeah.

You are still raw in the pain. You can't, you're unable to kind of offer anything to anybody else at that point. So yeah, I did a couple of, oh, a couple of years ago we did a, we did a, a suicide, um, men's well, um, help, help and then talked about it then on a forum, you know, and I thought, this is big, this is, you know, but I thought, I need to do this, not just for me, but if it helps one person, I will do it.

You know? And there was another lady that lost her son, but she, she's obviously not there yet. And she's been, he's, he's been gone, I think it was 10 years. Then you can't ignore it. You, you, you've gotta lean into it and, and feel all the feelings and feel that anger feel. 'cause I've been going through anger the last week.

Yeah. Maybe too, you know, with that ha, with, you know, but I, I don't stay there. But it's learning how to go there and, and move. Yeah. Go there and move. 'cause you are allowed to feel angry, then you are allowed to feel sad, then you are allowed to feel happy. You are allowed to recall those memories. You are allowed those things.

But don't stay there. Take it, move forward, take it, move forward. But you're still moving forward with the person, but in a more positive mindset. Yeah. You know, and, and it's, you know, when you are able to talk to women in this way, you are talking to it from the point of view of somebody who's very much experienced all of this, you know, this isn't some flippant, you know, kind of feel good advice.

This is, I have been in the depths of that grief. I completely, I've walked that path. Um, yeah. So yeah, I think this is kind of almost where your gift is in the sense that you are able to kind of give that to others and, and help guide them through, you know, what is just unthinkable for, for many of us.

Hundred percent. Look, I would to give it my left arm or my right arm, we should say. For someone to come out to the woodwork and say to me, you are going to be okay. Yeah. You are going be, you're gonna survive. You're going to be okay. Yeah, because you're, I I, I liken it to being on the dark side of the river, so it's all dark and this black clouds and this absolutely chucking down with rain.

And you're in this black hole and it's muddy as hell, and you just keep slipping and slipping and slipping. But there's this rapid river, which is grief, and you, you gotta, you gotta get into that river and, and go through this grief. And the grief kind of then starts to, to go a little bit. It's sort of a bit more this.

Then you get out onto the other side and you're kind of managing, you know, and it, it, the sun's shining in this pad. You can sit on a chair with a cup of tea or a glass of wine or whatever you want, but you've gone through that. You are not going there again. You know? Um, and, and it the same with, with, um.

When you, when people, when people sympathize, that's the worst thing you can do is sympathize. I always, whenever I have to say, or it can be, you know, like, 'cause it's when someone says, you know, oh, I lost my husband, you know, something like that, you know, and they'll say, oh, oh, some people will be nosy and go, oh, how did, how did he that, you know?

And then I go, yeah, it took his life. And it's like, you know, oh, I'm so sorry. But like that, I'm like, oh, I try and change the subject. Yeah. Because I've been there, I've done that and I've bought the t-shirts and I don't wanna go there again. So let's move on from that. Let's talk about something a bit more positive.

Sure, yeah, yeah. You know, a bit more. So you've crossed that river, you are over that on the other side, that's, you know, a. But you didn't get to the side without crossing the river. Yeah, exactly. You know, you have to get Exactly. And that takes a long time, takes years to get through the river, takes years to stop slipping and sliding mud.

Yeah. You know, but also in the boat, right. There's a boat that you can, in this analogy for me is great. So you in the, if you've got, if you wanna give, if to, to empathize with someone. Right. If what I do when I empathize is I will bring you outta the boat, onto the bank on the semi side. Right. And I'll just, and I'll go, you know, you are, you know, you are all good.

You're all right. Like, you will survive it. Or what are all those things? Right. You, so you wanna lift, you don't wanna jump in the boat and sympathize and sink the boat. Yeah. Because you're sinking the boat with a sympathy. You are not helping by pulling them out, lift them through it. Yeah. You know, and it's, and it people, people have been taught to go, oh, that's so, so I guess because people don't, I mean, like, I think, I mean, grief in general, isn't it?

Um, we, you know, particularly in Western society, we don't embrace it. We don't talk about it very much. It's still quite taboo boost subject. So I think people don't, we need to talk how to, you know, how to kind of manage it, how to handle it, how to respond, what's the right thing, what's the wrong thing. So I think this is so important in having these conversations, that people are helped to kind of understand it a little better from the point of view viewers being in that, in that place.

Mm-hmm. Um, if you could go back to the woman that you were before all of this began. Yeah. What would you whisper in her ear? Ooh, you got this. You can do anything you want no matter what, because you always have. And you always will. Yeah. I guess I'm a bit different now, but I would, you know, I even look at myself and go into a meditation and I've lean how to go back to my little girl, you know, little kid inside me, the little Chris, you know, and that just, oh, to give her the biggest hugs.

Yeah. She's got a lot to come. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And that's, that's grounding and very, and yeah. Yeah, just, just keeping her, she needs to be happy as well in sound. Oh, Chris, this has been such a journey and such a joy and, um, I know this is a really, it's a very raw. Very, um, sensitive for many subject, and I'm so grateful that you, you know, you've come on and you spoke about it because it's not, you know, it's gonna be so helpful to so many, it's very difficult conversation to, to have and to hold, but like, there's so, it's such a gift as well, you know, that you're able to do this.

Yeah. So thank you so much for your time today. Thank you for having me. Thanks. Ooh. I wanna thank Chris for sharing such a deeply personal and powerful story. It's really not easy to talk about suicide grief, but it's conversations like this that change how we see and support each other. What really strikes me is how much heart and courage has gone into developing her next gen range.

Something that's entirely hers. It's free from the weight of the mock tops legacy, yet it's still shaped by all the lessons, the love and the resilience that carried through, that she's carried through. Um, when Chris talks about feeling like a butterfly, that that's emerged from the mess, that is the chrysalis.

It's also important to understand that this has been a journey of almost 18 years. This isn't a chapter of personal growth, creativity, and trust. It's a whole damn book. If anything in this episode has brought up feelings for you, please reach out to a trusted friend, a family member, or a support service in your area in Australia.

You can contact Lifeline on 13 11 14 or beyond blue.org au. And if you're elsewhere, please look up your local crisis support line. You are not alone. Thank you for listening and for showing up for the stories that matter. Until next time.