The Art of being Unf**kwithable with Donna Williams

In this engaging conversation, Sharon Wilkes-Burt and Donnaprana explore the journey of self-discovery and resilience through various life stages. From teenage years filled with angst to the pressures of adulthood, they discuss how societal expectations shape our understanding of success. The conversation delves into the impact of trauma, the importance of self-compassion, and the liberating experience of embracing one's true self in midlife. Donnaprana shares her insights on the significance of meditation, healthy living, and the power of community support in navigating life's challenges. Ultimately, the discussion highlights the beauty of personal growth and the freedom that comes with self-acceptance.

Discover more about Donna, and her beautiful Swiss mountain life, her retreats and practices at https://emergencyoga.org/

Or over at https://www.instagram.com/emergencyoga/

Takeaways

Meditation is a crucial practice for self-awareness.
Self-compassion can transform your internal narrative.
Your identity can evolve; you can redefine yourself.
Healthy eating significantly impacts mental health.
Surround yourself with supportive people.
Embrace the freedom that comes with aging.
Trauma can lead to profound personal growth.
It's okay to let go of relationships that no longer serve you.
Life experiences shape our resilience and character.
You can have anything you want in life if you believe it. 


Titles

Unraveling the Journey of Midlife
From Teen Angst to Midlife Wisdom


Sound bites

"I think this is the making of us."
"I rarely felt I wasn't going to survive."
"This is a total life hack."


Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Background
02:53 Teenage Years and Early Influences
06:01 Defining Success in the 20s
08:46 Career Focus in the 30s
11:47 Turning 40: Reflections and Changes
14:34 Trauma and Growth in the 40s
17:38 Embracing Freedom in the 50s
20:37 The Thread of Nature and Independence
23:23 Unraveling and Identity
26:26 Lessons from Unraveling
29:22 Advice for Women in Transition

The Glow Deeper Retreat — Swan Valley, Perth

One day. 15 women... And your make up bag!

The Glow Deeper Retreat is a one-day women's retreat at Raw Space in the Swan Valley, built around a Confidence Reset Makeup Masterclass — because when you finally unlock the mystery of what's already in your drawer, something shifts. You stop being so mean to the woman in the mirror. You remember what it feels like to take up space.

Whether you're 30 and your makeup bag is a complete mystery, or you're in midlife and barely recognise the face looking back — this day is for you. We'll work through what you already own, make it actually make sense, and send you home with more than a better routine. You'll leave with that feeling — you know the one — where you look good, you feel good, and that energy ripples into everything.

15 spots. One day. Early bird tickets available now.

👉 https://events.humanitix.com/the-glow-deeper-retreat

 Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Unravelling: The Diary of a Midlife Mess.

If something resonated with you today, I’d love to hear your thoughts,  come join the conversation on Facebook and Instagram @theglowupguide_au or visit sharonwilkesburt.com
for more resources and support.

Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a review if you’re enjoying the journey so far!

Transcript

So, hi Donna. I am beyond excited to be able to chat to you today. It's always an absolute joy to catch up with you. And you're my first European guest. I mean, I know you're not European, but you're currently.

Donnaprana (00:12.951)
Okay, like that.

All cool, honey, all cool.

Donnaprana (00:38.04)
Well, I am in Switzerland, although I am Australian and Switzerland is not technically part of the EU, but I do feel I'm very much Euro side, very Euro side. Yeah, I know, I know. Yeah, I mean, we're still in Europe, the continent, most definitely.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (00:41.97)
You are.

did not know that, yeah, okay I feel it's European, yeah.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, okay. That counts, okay. So I'm just really delighted to be able to have this conversation with you. So of course this is Unraveling, the Diary of a Midlife Mess. And...

Donnaprana (01:09.952)
Perfect.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:10.527)
Which, obviously, you know, for a very good reason. So I really would like to take you back to your teenage you. If I were to look in your teenage diary, what am I going to find?

Donnaprana (01:28.746)
gosh. You know, I only kept a diary when I was much younger. I actually didn't keep a teenage diary. And I do think in my early twenties, when I went on, you know, like the grand travel, so to speak, somebody gave me a travel journal, which I promptly left in a phone box, which of course still existed in those days somewhere and forgot all about it. I think my teenage diary was...

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:48.144)
Excellent.

Donnaprana (01:55.442)
probably full of a great deal of angst and victimhood and a lot of tears and roller coaster emotions somehow and probably a lot of hard training sessions in sporting events as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (02:13.456)
Right, okay, so you're an active girl.

Donnaprana (02:17.774)
I was the sort of iconic surf life saver, know, like the surf club was like a huge, huge part of my teenage years and probably saved me from myself on many, many occasions. But despite the of, how do you say, the regulation of doing sports and all the goodness that that brings, I do feel like being a teenager was kind of an emotional roller coaster, as I guess it is for most people.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (02:22.683)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (02:41.706)
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's the job, isn't it? It's the hormones. You're supposed to be emotional. It's part of the deal. It's like us now, but younger. It's like, you know, it's the same amount of hormones, but they're just, you know, new ones, fresh ones.

Donnaprana (02:47.459)
Exactly, it's the hormones, it's the hormones. Exactly.

Donnaprana (02:57.322)
Yeah, no, exactly, just a different version of the story. Exactly.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (02:59.006)
Just a different version of the mad crazy story, exactly. if I was to just to kind of get a picture of who you were, who would have been on your wall or in your record collection in your teens?

Donnaprana (03:12.442)
my gosh Erin, that's such a great question. I mean, if you'd asked me kind of pre-teenage years, I had, I can tell you, I had Kiss up there, I mean Paul Stanley with his tongue out for sure. I had The Police and Sting of course. My first concert probably just, I was probably about 13, was Bruce Springsteen.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (03:29.831)
course.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (03:37.086)
That's a cool one! That's pretty cool. You don't. There is no beating that.

Donnaprana (03:39.354)
Can you believe it? I mean, how do you ever beat that? You know, I had traded off, I know I had traded off, so that year I didn't get Easter eggs because I went to the Bruce Springsteen concert as a alternative. Total worth it. Total worth it. Yeah. And only the Australians will get this, but high in my record collection, which I still have today, was the Uncanny X-Men.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (03:50.594)
yeah, that was good, that was a good, that was a yeah, a good swap out for sure.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (04:06.725)
Right, that has to an Australian thing. I've never heard of that. We heard of men at work and that was it. Very niche, okay. Wow, cool. I love that. It just kind of gives you a picture of kind of who the teen was, you know, before she kind of, you know, went into her twenties and beyond. So if we go into your twenties, what did success look like to you back then?

Donnaprana (04:09.683)
No, I mean that was like very niche, very niche, very niche.

Donnaprana (04:27.704)
Totally.

Donnaprana (04:36.91)
That is so interesting. So I guess in my 20s, I spent my 21st birthday on the Gold Coast in Australia. And after that, I went traveling. You know, I came to Europe and I think that I...

Well, I mean, in some ways I defined success at that age by getting paid to travel. So in fact, I chose jobs that had travel included in them so that I didn't have to pay my way to travel around Europe.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (05:04.315)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (05:10.501)
Good plan, wise girl.

Donnaprana (05:13.548)
But it's interesting because if I really think about it, somehow in my mind I have been probably trained to think that, you know, success in my 20s was finding the right guy, you know, getting married, you know, having a stable relationship and kind of, you know, everything around that sort of, you know, marriage and 2.2 kids and a white picket fence, if you like. And I had a few, I call them my close calls, where I

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (05:36.473)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (05:41.709)
Okay.

Donnaprana (05:43.472)
probably could have been married to a number of the wrong guys and I just never did and instead I kept sort of being me and following the things that I wanted to do but I feel like my 20s was fought with almost like toying with these like long-term relationships but never quite committing and here I am today at 53 still single.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (05:46.852)
Yeah.

Donnaprana (06:12.65)
But very happily so, very happily so. And thanking my intuition that I really didn't marry any of them.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (06:22.286)
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's...

But that's great though, isn't it? Because of course, I mean, and you're absolutely right, we do have this kind of like, you know, this is what success is supposed to look like. know, I like we were, I was a child of Thatcher's Britain. So of course, success, I think it was the first time that there was a possibility that you could be a self-employed person, you know, and you didn't have to necessarily work for others. So, but that was really, mean, like without me realizing it at the time, that was quite impactful on kind of on my future and how I went out into the world.

Donnaprana (06:44.493)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (06:55.18)
And I suppose success began to kind of redefine how it looked for young people at that point, you know, that you could be your own boss or you could, you know, but essentially it's still always under that kind of, yeah, but you're going to get married and have 2.2 kids and get the house, the white picket fence. That was always the underlying version of success. So, yeah, no, that's quite interesting.

So if we go into your 30s then, what was the drive in the 30s? What was driving you?

Donnaprana (07:28.882)
the 30s was all about the career for sure, you know. I mean, I was already working for the Red Cross at that point. And it was about which missions I took, which countries I wanted to see, how can I make a difference, the excitement of kind of, you know, responding to emergencies.

I did find yoga or if you like rediscover yoga in my 30s, definitely quite early in my 30s and you know those two things kind of started to weave themselves together. But it was very much you know this phase of kind of like proving yourself in the work world. And it's interesting also because if you look at

you better, you know, this ancient Indian science, which is something that I study and teach, you know, you have your childhood, you have your adulthood, and you have your elderhood. I hate to tell you, but I'm in my elderhood now, but I like it. It's not old age, it's it's elderhood. You know, they see, they link adulthood, which is kind of, you know, like your thirties, et cetera, with this idea of, you know, determination and sort of like making your mark on the world.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (08:36.186)
Yes, yeah

Donnaprana (08:51.208)
in a very sort of economic way. And so yeah, was all about the work. mean, I was probably...

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (08:53.25)
Yeah.

Donnaprana (09:00.268)
working too much, you know, yeah, I was all about that. And I think, I think the yoga, I mean, of course that was the thing to kind of counterbalance, you know, all the work, which did a very nice job. Thank you very much. But it was, I would say it was about doing, doing, doing, doing, doing, not so much being, if you like.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (09:12.931)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (09:21.697)
Yeah.

I yes, I I, you know, I would say for myself, and it's interesting kind of that, like, I've made a view of it in terms of like that being adulthood, because actually that's very, it kind of falls in with our seasons that we know them really, isn't it? In the sense that, you know, I think very much in your probably 20, 30s, you're kind of finding your place in the world and, you know, and working towards a career and all of those things. And I think by the time you get to 40, you're pretty secure in who you are and your identity. And then you get to 50 and

Donnaprana (09:36.152)
Yeah.

Donnaprana (09:45.24)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (09:53.676)
that just collapses but anyway we'll get to that bit. So was there a moment in that decade or a decision that changed the course of things for you in your 30s?

Donnaprana (09:56.236)
Hehehehehe

Donnaprana (10:11.502)
In my 30s, I think one thing that happened is that I took a Red Cross job at the headquarters, which is in Switzerland, it's in Geneva. so this, I sort of...

I I fell in love with the place for sure. I never imagined that I would live out the rest of my life here. And who knows, maybe I won't, but it's very good for the moment and it's been many, many years. But I think...

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (10:39.949)
Yeah.

Donnaprana (10:45.708)
I think that changed a lot, know, and maybe just, it's funny, had, do remember the days of vision boards? I mean, now everybody has Pinterest, but you know, you used to actually cut pictures out of magazines and stick them on your board and everything. And I was somewhere, I don't know if I was in Palestine. Yeah, I was in Palestine. I was living in the West Bank in Ramallah and I had a vision board and it had on this picture of the mountains. you know, these are the mountains where I

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (10:53.489)
I have a vision port. Yes, I still like those.

Donnaprana (11:15.652)
live now. So there was something very fundamental, I think, about moving to Switzerland. And while I've always considered myself to be a beach girl at heart, I think I very sort of intentionally trade it like, well, if there's no beach, I'm gonna have to do something else in nature, and it's going to be the mountains. And so this was kind of the start of a whole other exploration of

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (11:16.49)
wow.

Donnaprana (11:43.496)
I mean I'd never been in the mountains growing up in Australia. I the highest mountain in Australia is probably a tiny hill, you know, if you were to put it in Switzerland. And so this was kind of the opening of a door to a whole, I learned to ski with my friends, you know, I did all kinds of crazy things that I would never have done otherwise.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (11:48.619)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (12:01.911)
Yeah, wow, I mean that's something quite incredible, yeah, how wonderful. So then if we go into your next decade, into your 40s, what was the, how was that for you? I mean what was going on in your 40s?

Donnaprana (12:05.154)
Yeah.

Donnaprana (12:20.558)
Well, I remember very clearly turning 40 and I had a fantastic party by the lake in Geneva with everybody. I remember having turning 40, I had this incredible sense of relief that I don't have to have children. This kind of, I completely let this go. And I also thought,

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (12:23.382)
Mmm.

Donnaprana (12:47.13)
my goodness, I've done all of these things in 40 years. I'm going to have to think of some new things to do, you know? And what am I going to do for the next 40 years? And I actually wrote a suggestion, I created a suggestion box for people to put like suggestions in. It was anything from...

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (12:53.196)
Yeah.

Donnaprana (13:07.48)
having twins, great, I'm not sure where that's, I still don't know who's proposed that, to, to spending the night on the open ocean or sea where you, the only thing you can see is the horizon, you know, so some great suggestions, some less great suggestions, but I think my forties.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (13:08.254)
Sharon Wilkes-Burt (13:16.151)
you

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (13:24.214)
Yeah.

Donnaprana (13:29.71)
they were a bit half-half, you know, like in one way I think when I entered in for my 40s there is this kind of sense of like knowing who you are and giving less of a fuck about what everybody else thinks and being your own person and I think there was another part which was also like oh my god I'm 40, I'm not married, I don't have kids and almost kind of like you know feeling like this pressure to hurry up and do all these things that I...

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (13:36.471)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (13:47.831)
Mmm.

Donnaprana (13:54.13)
have never thought were particularly for me anyway. I also, mean two things also happen in my 40s and I'll just give people the trigger warning here.

I was the victim and survivor of a quite a serious physical attack when I was in Laos of all places. And a few... So I was sort of very, very grateful to be alive after that. And a few years after that, have a friend, Hannah, was the husband of one of my closest friends, was killed in Yemen. So it was also...

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (14:24.694)
Right.

Donnaprana (14:37.48)
a decade of some quite traumatic things happening, not just to me, but also to people that I know and I think...

Well, those things are totally always the making of us. You know, it was a decade of like, my gosh, we're getting older. And therefore, you know, all of us, we start to have these experiences, you know, people die, people's parents die. You know, you get sick, you it's kind of, you let go of this like, I'm 30, I'm gonna live forever, kind of vibe. So.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (14:54.667)
Yeah.

Donnaprana (15:13.706)
It was also a decade of reckoning, if you like, you know, like, and I think just a decade that I received so many teachings, would you say, you know, like all those things that like, if it doesn't kill you, it's going to make you stronger. Character building. was a decade of character building. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. A decade of character building. Yeah. But, you know, like, I mean, I, I

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (15:31.483)
Well, quite literally. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Donnaprana (15:43.114)
I think about the person I was before my friend Hannah was killed and I was somebody, if you told me that your best friend died I was like, I'm so sorry, moving on. You know, like I didn't know what to do with other people's grief, let alone my own grief, you know, and I had no capacity as a human to, despite all the yoga and everything, I had no capacity as a human to like stand in other people's

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (15:55.294)
Yes.

Donnaprana (16:13.254)
hardest moments. And I mean, now I have that, now I have that. you know, I mean, and now I'm grateful to be alive every single day.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (16:14.325)
No.

Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (16:22.495)
Yeah, I mean, God, mean, that's a fairly brutal...

lesson in that sense, you know as lessons often are, you know, when they're powerful. And of course, you know, I think we're all quite shallow and quite selfish until we need to bring out parts or until we get those kind of lessons that, you know, make us dig deeper and begin to kind of empathise or see something from somebody else's point of view. But I mean, that's quite, you know, they were quite biggies.

Donnaprana (16:29.494)
some brutal lessons exactly yeah

Donnaprana (16:45.069)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Donnaprana (16:51.639)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Donnaprana (16:57.304)
Well, you know what's crazy though is that they sound very big and yet when you start to talk to other people everybody's had something. It's just a different version of the same story, you know? You know, whether it's parents passing or loved ones passing away suddenly, whether it's being jilted at the altar, whether it's some terrible injury, like everybody has some version of that story.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (17:09.055)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (17:24.116)
Yeah. Yeah.

Donnaprana (17:27.136)
And I think that's also like...

the incredible connecting human factor. It's just that not everybody... Of course, when we're experiencing things ourselves, we think we're the only person that's happening to. And just not everybody talks about it. But then when you do talk about it, you realize, I would say 99 % of people have had some really, really horrific thing happen in some way, or form. And then we get to choose whether it's the making of us or not. I mean, especially in our 40s and

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (17:39.389)
Yeah, yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (17:52.305)
Yeah.

Donnaprana (17:59.472)
50s. We're old enough that those things have happened, yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (17:59.71)
Yes, yeah. Yeah, for sure. mean, like those years by just the very nature of them, know, just the amount of them is going to bring, you know, life. Life is going to happen in all the ways. Yeah, absolutely. Exactly that. We've lived long enough to kind of have experienced these things. So if you are obviously now in your 50s, what has shifted for you in how you see yourself?

Donnaprana (18:10.828)
Yeah, we've just lived long enough. Yeah.

Donnaprana (18:18.669)
Yeah, yeah.

Donnaprana (18:31.694)
I just feel like life is total freedom. And to be fair, I mean, I did also leave my, you know, regular pay Red Cross life when I was 50. So, I mean, a lot has shifted in terms of like also how I spend my time and what I do, but.

I just really don't care what anybody else thinks. you know, this idea of living life unapologetically as yourself and believing that's what meant for me is what's meant for me. And, you know.

trying every day to be, I don't know if I'm allowed to swear in your podcast, but you know that I love this word, you know, just unfuck with a ball, you know, like do as you please, but me, I'm unfuck with a ball. Yeah, so I mean, so I changed a lot about, you know, how I live my life.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (19:20.485)
absolutely, yes.

Donnaprana (19:34.062)
And I think that that has also just given me like an incredible sense of freedom, you know, in being alive. Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (19:40.661)
Yeah. I think there's something, it is something about sort of, I mean in your 40s, in your 40s you tend to kind of go, I don't care, but you do still care. There's still lots going on in your life and you do still care.

Donnaprana (19:52.566)
Yeah, great description, yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (19:54.325)
but there is something about getting into your 50s where all of sudden actually you just genuinely don't care. And it's not that you don't care about things or people, but it's just that sense of fuck, don't care enough, do you know what mean? Or you don't care enough about kind of what people think of you quite so much. It's more, you become more selfish in that thing where you kind of go, actually I'm just, going, it's all about me right now, what do I want? And I think it's actually quite liberating to be able to feel that

Donnaprana (20:01.39)
It's such a great feeling, isn't it?

Donnaprana (20:11.393)
Yeah

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (20:24.318)
way but I mean you are often going through that whilst also navigating perimenopause and all the kind of highs and lows and things of that so but it's like it's one of these kind of sort of I don't know like you know there's all these kind of ingredients always mad hormones and ingredients are thrown into the pot but one of the things that comes out is I don't quite care so much that's great I'll keep that my god where's my self-confidence gone

Donnaprana (20:32.567)
Hmm.

Donnaprana (20:48.673)
You

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (20:51.156)
You know, it's all kind of melting pot of madness, but I think there is something quite wonderful about being in your 50s where actually the not giving quite so much of a shit is you know, quite a lovely place to find yourself. for you then, during this period, and of course, you know, we have spoken a little bit about some of the things that you went through in that people go through these things just through age, essentially.

Donnaprana (21:02.668)
Yeah, totally.

Donnaprana (21:18.508)
Mm-hmm.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (21:19.495)
Well actually before we get to that, is, is there, for all of those things, going through from this, you know, this sporty kid in your teens to, you know, obviously having a very cool first concert, I mean that is very cool. But to the woman that you are today, is there a thread that's run through all of that?

Donnaprana (21:32.044)
Hahaha!

Donnaprana (21:40.357)
that's such a great question.

Donnaprana (21:47.18)
Yeah, it's interesting. I think that the things that have never really stopped is my craving to be out and about in the planet, know, like somehow in nature. And this need to like move my body.

So, you when I was younger, it was like, I mean, I swam competitively, I lifeguarded competitively, I ran competitively. I mean, I still run today. Competitively is kind of a bit of a loaded word. You know, I do my yoga. Yeah, I think these are the two threads that somehow, like, I cannot imagine, I've never been able to imagine, like,

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (22:28.808)
Ha ha ha!

Donnaprana (22:43.41)
living in a very big city. I mean, I lived in Bangkok at one point. I mean, this is not a, it's a great city, but it's not a city for me. Like I can't live in a place where I am not able to connect to nature and to be outside and moving and things. And I think this has given me a lot of sanity over the years. Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (23:03.473)
Yeah, yeah.

I see this, just from knowing you as I do and even on your Instagram, you have this amazing outdoor life and there's that real connection. But I think there's such a fierce independent spirit there as well, which I think is probably, just sort of listening to this is kind of threaded through all of that as well. And actually just a really, I mean, obviously this will probably come through your sort of humanitarian work, obviously with the Red Cross as well, but a real,

Donnaprana (23:17.902)
.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (23:35.288)
somebody who really cares for people, you know? I think this has been something that I think has threaded through for you.

Donnaprana (23:40.289)
Yeah.

Donnaprana (23:44.642)
I mean that's so interesting because people often ask like how did you get into the Red Cross and and I mean it's such a strange thing to say but I actually truly think that I was born with this gene you know like I mean if you remember the terrible famine of Ethiopia like back in the 80s you know I mean I remember refusing to eat lunch that day because Bob Geldof and crew were like you know singing for the famine kind of thing and I I

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (23:58.448)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (24:07.889)
Yeah.

Donnaprana (24:12.566)
I mean, I think I also come from a family that is like about, very much about equality. And I think one thing that I was taught very, very young is that, know, all humans are equal, like whether it's your gender, whether it's where you're from, like this deep, deep, deep belief in kind of human equality. And I feel very lucky to have also received that from my parents. I mean, I should also mention that before I was even in school, my parents,

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (24:32.23)
Hmm.

Donnaprana (24:41.408)
put the three of us children, my sister had literally been born like probably just weeks before, in a Ford Falcon and decided to drive around Australia for a few years until I actually did need to go to school. So this kind of adventurous spirit, I think was gifted to me at a very young age. But it's true that also like walking the planet.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (24:53.67)
love yes for sure

Donnaprana (25:06.068)
And being out in nature kind of gives you this sense of like if you have to find your way on a mountain path or you have to figure out how to not drown on a big wave. I mean, these things also give you an incredible sense of confidence and independence and connection as well. So I guess that's also why I keep doing them.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (25:19.9)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (25:26.49)
Yeah, in the most incredible and inspiring way because as I say, I look at your Instagram and I just, I want your life. I want to be in the mountains. I don't want to run at the mountain. I don't want to run at the mountain though, Donna.

Donnaprana (25:37.002)
You can, so that's the thing, you can totally have my life, no problem. that, but that is the thing. That's fine. But I, so that is an interesting point, because one thing I truly believe is that you can absolutely have anything and any kind of life you want to, which I know you also know.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (25:54.417)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (25:58.618)
Yes, yes, so true. No, yes, well that in itself. As you know, this is an issue for me, so yes, we've discussed this many times.

Donnaprana (26:01.42)
Yeah, no snakes in Switzerland, just so you know. Well, there are, but like not deadly ones.

Well, and I do just want to recognize that it is a very, very different experience to hike in the mountains of Switzerland, where you know that you don't have any deadly animals to kill you and that you're not going to die of heat exhaustion versus deciding to go for a remote hike in the bush of Australia in the middle of summer.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (26:24.463)
Yes.

Exactly. Honestly, I always have a little panic attack. I'm out for a walk this morning and of course it's spring so of course I'm passing this nature reserve and part of me is kind of going, my god aren't the flowers all beautiful? And the other part of me is on just snake watch because now obviously all the babies come out and it's just, that's it. So I can feel my heart, my heart rate increases already as I'm going through this but anyway.

Donnaprana (26:45.026)
course they're coming out. They're waking from hibernation, ready to be out in the sun, visiting you.

Donnaprana (26:55.982)
Totally get you. Totally get you.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (26:57.009)
I've got to do a whole podcast on my fear around snakes, but there we go.

Donnaprana (27:01.558)
No, but I mean, it's so wild. Like when I'm out in the garden or like yesterday I was collecting wood from the forest and like the fact that I don't have to wear gloves and worry about putting my hand in a redback nest. I mean, this is so freeing.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (27:12.4)
Yes. Yes. For sure. dear. Okay. So obviously we are in the Unraveling podcast. Was there a, was there an unraveling point for you? And was it a specific moment or was it a slow burn unraveling?

Donnaprana (27:39.086)
you to tell me a little bit about what unraveling means for you first?

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (27:42.701)
Yeah sure I could do that because Unraveling, I mean for me Unraveling came in my early 50s in so much as that I will say that I had this I was very

Donnaprana (27:50.22)
Sharon Wilkes-Burt (27:54.895)
I knew very much who I was at that point. As we spoke before about this venture through adulthood and you're building your career and you're building your identity and you're building your family and you're building, building, building, building. And then it gets to this point where you're in your forties and you go, I have got it all together. I know where I'm going. I know who I am.

Donnaprana (27:59.019)
huh.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (28:17.038)
then all of a sudden this little thing called perimenopause hits your life. I mean it might be perimenopause or it might just be again these kind of life seasons and all of a sudden the grind beneath your feet starts to feel very wobbly and things begin to unravel in the sense that you you actually no longer know who you are and what if you're not the thing that you thought you were. mean so much of my personal identity was wrapped up in my job and if I didn't have my job then who would I be? So this was

Donnaprana (28:33.296)
huh.

Donnaprana (28:45.122)
Hmm.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (28:47.022)
real kind of moment of unraveling for me personally. However, obviously I've had so many of these conversations and they're so wonderful but for some people their unraveling came in their 20s, some of their unraveling came in their 30s and it can be identity, it can be confidence, it can be kind of just that moment where things start to feel like they're coming undone and then not the ground isn't quite so secure under your feet.

Donnaprana (28:58.83)
Mmm.

Donnaprana (29:14.229)
Yeah, that's a great way to say it, like the ground under your feet. I mean, I think in a way there's two phases. mean, one was in my 40s after I was kind of the target of this terrible attack.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (29:18.192)
Hmm.

Donnaprana (29:31.34)
where, you know, I mean, my life truly was threatened. so after that, mean, totally destabilizing. I mean, it's a traumatic experience. You have all these trauma responses, et cetera, and you sort of almost literally have to kind of piece yourself back together again, which, I'm honest, you know, did take a long time. But what it also made me do is just made me absolutely ruthless about

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (29:43.727)
Yeah.

Donnaprana (30:00.304)
how I spent my time and who I spent my time with, you know, I mean, but that was sort of a very specific event. And, you know, anybody in that situation would obviously feel like the ground is sort of taken out from under underneath them. But I think it was interesting just because

You know, you're kind of forced to like take all your support systems and and prioritize yourself. Otherwise, you're not going to recover. You're not going to become well. You're not going to, you know, you're going to spend the rest of your life impacted by your trauma, etc, etc. So. I think it was also a wake up call, you know, because I would not have called myself a workaholic before then.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (30:28.548)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (30:48.783)
All right.

Donnaprana (30:49.162)
But looking back, I was absolutely a workaholic. And I absolutely always prioritized work and over everything else. I, but I also didn't necessarily choose for myself. Like I let the bread cross be like, do you fancy going here? Do you fancy going there? Like I wasn't really like saying, this is for me. And I, and I want this.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (30:51.873)
Okay.

Donnaprana (31:13.822)
So in some ways that was like a forced unraveling and I think what is interesting is that when I then very intentionally left the Red Cross life behind when I was 50, everything unraveled. I

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (31:16.207)
Mmm.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (31:28.269)
Yeah.

Donnaprana (31:31.37)
The three things that happened kind of in quite a quick succession were my job got made redundant, so I could have had another job, I was offered another job, but like it was kind of like there in your face, you get to take the package or you get to stay. My partner totally ghosted me on my 50th birthday, never to be seen again, which is such a wild moment for a woman to like, I know, wow, right?

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (31:57.804)
Wow. Okay.

Donnaprana (32:01.294)
and I got my dog and she broke her leg after the first month and almost had it amputated. Like all this in like quick succession. And it was almost like this moment in my 40s of Unravelling where I had to literally...

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (32:08.215)
my god.

Donnaprana (32:18.06)
force myself to be healthy and to have all these practices and to make sure I'm still alive and still going had prepared me for the unraveling of 50. And it just kept going. I didn't get my permit to stay in Switzerland. I got all kinds of ridiculous bills that I wasn't allowed to work for 18 months. I got all kinds of ridiculous bills that I'd never even had bills before, you know.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (32:23.03)
Mmm.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (32:27.502)
you

Donnaprana (32:46.046)
And it was almost like I was an observer of myself just watching, watching everything unravel to the point where I would like literally, I did a lot of sitting in my living room crying, but I would literally sit there and be like, just bring it on. What else have you got? Like just tear me down because I can tell you now I'm only gonna come back up from this. And I think this moment, this terrible moment in my forties prepared me for

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (32:57.474)
Yeah.

Donnaprana (33:14.38)
Just bring it on. Whatever you've got. Not a problem. Not a problem. I can do this. But this becoming 50 was literally like watching it all just crumble down. Except that this time round, I never once felt I wasn't going, well maybe once or twice, but I rarely felt I wasn't going to survive. Like I knew I had made the right decision. Shall I say it like that? Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (33:15.083)
Yeah. Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (33:27.381)
Yeah. Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (33:40.821)
Yes, yeah. It is interesting when you, you know, when you kind of look, I mean we talk about confidence. Confidence comes from knowing, having the sense or the faith or trust, I suppose, that you've overcome this before and you can do it again. And I guess having survived what you did at that time, when all these things start to fall away, there's that kind of like, okay, we've got this, we've been through this before. But I mean, that's still, you know, quite, you know, a lot.

Donnaprana (33:55.755)
Yeah.

Donnaprana (34:05.886)
Yeah.

Donnaprana (34:09.716)
Yeah, what I would also say though is...

things do prepare us and I do believe that when we're in the greatest challenges of our life they're almost like a sign of kind of like we're gonna up level you because you've got other shit to do in the world you know. At the same time I think this experience in my 40s taught me to prioritize my health to you know that like like good health and freedom and choices and and feeling good in life doesn't come from nothing like you have to also invest it in and you have to

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (34:24.213)
Yes.

Donnaprana (34:45.322)
also say no to everybody that you mean no to and only yes to those that you mean yes to. So I feel like the unraveling of my 50s was survivable because I'd spent probably almost a decade practicing what it is to be resilient and to practice choosing for myself if you like.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (35:07.851)
Yeah, yeah. But yeah, but as you say, that's quite a lot to come all at once, the three things, kind of. Yes, yes. And was there anything, obviously, know, being ghosted by the partner, that is not, you know, fun? Or any of the things weren't fun? Yeah, absolutely, for sure.

Donnaprana (35:15.852)
Yes, it did feel like it at the time, I have to say. Yes, yes, indeed.

Donnaprana (35:29.268)
Wild shit. Wild shit.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (35:33.365)
Was there anything sort of coming out of that that you just didn't feel fit anymore? That didn't feel fit? Was there something that just didn't fit into your life anymore? With these, through this, these kind of like, as you say, this constant unraveling, when you kind of came through that, what just felt this doesn't fit? This doesn't, I don't want to be this.

Donnaprana (35:40.064)
that I didn't feel.

Donnaprana (35:46.515)
Donnaprana (35:54.661)
That's such a great... you just ask all the best questions Sharon.

I am not, I am, I am no longer fit for a nine to five job where I have to go in the office and somebody else is my boss full time. I am most definitely not fit for that anymore. Like there is no way I would give up the freedom of my schedule and my life that I have now for that ever again. Just forget it. Just forget it. And I have to stop myself. Like, you know, LinkedIn proposes you jobs like quite regularly.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (36:26.069)
Yeah.

Donnaprana (36:31.832)
just have to like delete this from my account altogether. So this is definitely something that does not fit into my life and you know I am just absolutely over people with that don't have lack of, that don't have integrity and I just mean that in a very very simple way if your actions and words don't match

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (36:34.485)
Yeah.

Donnaprana (37:00.542)
I'm not for you. I'm not for you. And I'm really just not going to spend any time in or around people whose actions and words don't match. And you know, like, I think one of the things that happens when you unravel and when you very intentionally choose a different kind of life than perhaps you've had before is...

that a lot of people that you know and lot of friendships kind of also don't match in this new version of you. And I think it's been interesting to see who is still around, who I've intentionally, shall we say, let go of.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (37:27.517)
Yes, yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (37:37.163)
you

Donnaprana (37:39.658)
Because I think when, and I think this is kind of the also life of a solopreneur, which I'm sure you know very well, is like, not only do you need to be your own cheerleader, but you need to be surrounded by everybody else who's a cheerleader. Like there's no space for, I don't know if you really, you know, like this is not a moment of life in your 50s when you're doing your own thing to be like, I don't know, Donna, maybe you should go back and get a job. Like, wouldn't that be easier? Like if somebody says that to me, I'm like, delete.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (37:52.309)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (38:09.387)
Friend.

Donnaprana (38:10.252)
It's just like, if you don't believe in me, like, you need to go. So I think it's interesting what relationships I choose to have and which ones have fallen by the wayside rather intentionally during this unraveling, shall we say.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (38:16.179)
Yes, yes.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (38:24.161)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (38:29.257)
I think friendships is such an interesting, or relationships in general is just an interesting one because, I mean, we talk about this kind of not giving a shit thing earlier. I think it's more that we just don't have the tolerance for, as you say, people that are out of integrity or kind of saying one thing or doing another. And of course, and I think, yeah, your friendships change through this time, you know? 100%.

Donnaprana (38:35.147)
Yeah.

Donnaprana (38:47.626)
Yeah.

Donnaprana (38:53.034)
Yeah. Which is also totally okay. I mean, I think this almost is like a society rule that we have to maintain friendships. But I have, and I have many friends for a very, very long time, but I've also very distinctly, like, let go of friendships over the time and also, I mean, over decades and also welcomed you ones in. Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (38:59.357)
Yes!

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (39:13.811)
Yes, yeah, absolutely. There's a real kind of like, it shifts and changes and there's less kind of need to be holding on to something just for the sake of holding on to it, you know? And I think it's actually quite lovely because, you know, as I say, my friendships have changed over the years, but...

Donnaprana (39:27.744)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (39:35.325)
It's still a rich pool of fabulousness and wisdom and people that I just love hanging out with. I think that kind of, there's nobody that contacts me that I go, God, do I have to? I'm excited to see all of them.

Donnaprana (39:53.268)
That's it though, right? Like the sinking feeling.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (39:54.379)
Yeah, man, I just don't have that, you know, I just don't have that, which is a lovely place to be. But I think, as you say, there's that kind of intentional letting go of, or just, you know, the shifts that come through that.

Donnaprana (40:08.736)
Yeah. Yeah, it's like, it's what you said, like what fits now that didn't fit before and vice versa. Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (40:16.097)
Mmm, yeah.

And like when we talk about like your roles and identity and of course, obviously, you know, working for the Red Cross as you did for many years, there's a real kind of, that's a very specific identity for you, I would say. And of course it kind of comes from, obviously you talk about your background and your childhood, so it kind of ties in with that. But as you went through this unraveling, was there any part of that identity that felt the hard, most difficult to let go of?

Donnaprana (40:24.171)
Thank

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (40:47.98)
off.

Donnaprana (40:50.316)
This is such a great question because like everybody also asked me this like, have you managed to let go of the Red Cross yet? my God, instantaneously. and what, but okay, but I think the realization that I had was that I am intrinsically humanitarian. And in fact, it's not at all related to the organization that I work for. Like this is something intrinsic to my identity. And that was just one way that I...

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (41:11.838)
Yeah.

for sure.

Donnaprana (41:18.45)
express that if you like in life by working for the Red Cross. But the other thing I also really believe about identity is you can just change your identity. you know, there's a whole sort of realm of belief out there that like, you know, you have certain beliefs about yourself and they're so difficult to change. And, you know, like you can only change yourself if you change your beliefs.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (41:21.79)
Yes.

Donnaprana (41:39.584)
But honestly, if you want to change who you are tomorrow, you can change who you are tomorrow. You just need to make sure that your actions aligned whatever identity. And at the moment, the one I'm struggling with is, you know, I have a few running races coming up.

And I, you know, I rarely call myself a runner, you know, like this is an identity that I particularly embrace, but I'm like, well, Donna, if you're going to be a runner and run these races, you might actually have to run, you know, so, so you can change your identity wherever you want, whenever you want, you just need to make sure that your actions are the actions of that identity. So currently working on the runner identity and my actions working.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (42:02.113)
Ha

Yeah.

For sure.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (42:16.337)
Yeah, yeah. I think it's interesting as well. Yeah.

Donnaprana (42:19.082)
But no, but just to say no, like, I mean, I thought that would be a really big thing and actually it was so uneventful. I almost feel bad about it.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (42:25.405)
Hmm. Well, think, no, but then I think as you say, because the you being a humanitarian is just part of who you are anyway, it wasn't actually linked to the role as such, you know, that's just who you are and how you walk through this world. So that's, you know, that's very much.

Donnaprana (42:37.684)
Yeah.

Donnaprana (42:41.236)
Yeah, I mean the other interesting thing was I updated my LinkedIn profile literally the day after I left and I'm like I have to call myself something right? So what am I going to call myself? So I called myself a well-being entrepreneur and I think using this word entrepreneur also gave me a lot of confidence of kind of who I was the next day after I left the office, you know, like

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (43:04.444)
Yes.

Donnaprana (43:06.482)
And you know, the entrepreneur is a very sort of broad word. You can fit a lot of things under there. So I think also sort of choosing a name for the new identity in some ways kind of encouraged my, encouraged me internally to be like, OK, well, now I'm an entrepreneur, so I'm going to do entrepreneur things, including all the stress that comes with that.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (43:09.904)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (43:24.016)
Yeah. Yes, indeed.

But you're right, it's this kind of huge umbrella really, isn't it, that in which you can kind of place all the things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that, I mean, because I guess, you know, when you, I mean, obviously, you know, obviously I did the same thing. I I moved from kind of one role into another role and it was kind of like, oh my God, what do call myself? Like all of a sudden, and I think there's something in that kind of almost conditioning that you have to, well, you have to label that. You have to give that a name. You have to, you know, you have to say what that is. And like we were talking about earlier, just this thing where we hate it when people say, what do

Donnaprana (43:33.172)
Yeah, you can be whoever you want to be if you're an entrepreneur. Absolutely.

Donnaprana (43:52.906)
Yes.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (43:59.366)
do my god I don't know what day of the week are we talking you know it's like we do so many things so you know and so I really struggle with the whole labels you know what do you what do want to label yourself as so yeah I you know entrepreneur love that

Donnaprana (44:12.66)
Yeah.

Just pick a really broad one.

Donnaprana (44:21.268)
You are totally an entrepreneur Sharon. That you are, completely.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (44:25.608)
well, yes, something like that. Creative, we're just gonna go with she's a creative. I'm a creative, yeah, yeah. My husband doesn't live with quite so much, you know. Been married to a creative is quite challenging, bless him. He's learning too, it's been a few years.

Donnaprana (44:34.403)
my God, I love it. What are you? I'm a creative. I love that. I love that.

Donnaprana (44:47.626)
He'll have to get over it. All right, we have a needy pupster here.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (44:52.907)
So, hey booty, so just give myself a moment here, I don't know where I am, I'm all over the place. So if you look back like over these, over this lifetime of all these incredible things that you've done, all the travel that you've done, if there was anything that you could go back and tell your younger self,

Donnaprana (45:02.154)
No, no, that's okay. I'm going to...

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (45:20.999)
you could have 20 minutes with her, you get to go pop in a time machine, you get to spend 20 minutes with your younger self, what are you going to tell her? What are you going to say to her? And it can be any version of your younger self, it doesn't need to be the 10 year old or the 20 year old or whatever.

Donnaprana (45:35.21)
No, that's fine. It's only gonna take me, oops, it's only gonna take me 30 seconds. I'm gonna tell it to start a meditation practice like ASAP. Like if you have one life hack, it is to meditate daily.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (45:43.494)
Yeah.

Donnaprana (45:49.674)
because this is going to give you, and to be fair, like I don't always meditate daily, but I meditate very regularly. That is just going to give whatever age you are. And that is what I would have given my younger self. It would have made me less dramatic, less reactive. My nervous system would have been more regulated. Meditation, just gives you an ability to see your life as an observer and not to be in the reaction and drama of it all.

and I would just tell her that start here, however old she was, just start meditating now and this is just gonna help you be a bit smoother sailing in life, a bit smoother sailing in life. I mean, that's it. Yeah, I know, simple as.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (46:35.471)
Yeah, I love that. And I think it's also something that we don't really start practicing until we're maybe at the probably earliest in our 20s, you know, and I don't think I started practicing meditation until probably into my 40s, probably for the very first time.

Donnaprana (46:49.056)
Yeah, I mean, now it's now in schools, at least, you know, a lot of schools are doing this and, you know, kids clubs and stuff like this. So I think it is much more accessible to younger people today. And I know that the app Headspace does a lot of work with young people, especially like, you know, with all the horrific effects of like phones and devices and things like that. But but yeah, I mean, I mean, this wasn't something anybody even talked about when when we were in school or younger. I mean, forget it.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (46:52.485)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (46:57.604)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (47:10.364)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (47:15.739)
No. No, no, for sure.

Donnaprana (47:19.01)
You know, you would have had to be in a super hippie woo-woo family to have access to that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. The mainstream. No. No, definitely not.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (47:21.732)
Yes.

Yeah, yeah, I mean that's the thing, it would have been considered hippie and woo woo and it definitely wasn't part of you know, sort of the mainstream kids in the 80s were not being taught to do meditation. But I think that's actually a really beautiful thing and I was the same. think if you can, it kind of gives you some hope for kids in the future if they've kind of, if they've been taught that from a really young age that that's something, a practice they can kind of tap into. Yeah, yeah. So if you would give some advice to women going through

Donnaprana (47:47.242)
Yeah, totally, totally.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (47:54.217)
who are currently in their messy middle or at the point of their unraveling, what would you say?

Donnaprana (48:02.988)
okay. So meditate. Well, you know, I'm going to do a combo deal. Meditate. And while you're meditating, I want women who are unraveling to tell themselves words of love and compassion. Because quite honestly, this is the thing that I think is the biggest up level. Like when you can learn to like say your own name and say, love you to yourself.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (48:05.883)
Yep.

Donnaprana (48:32.844)
and you can be kind to yourself and that this internal narrative is one of love and self-compassion. This is a total, total life hack. Total life hack. And then the other thing I would say, and this is a bit of a science geek in me.

is honestly sort out what you're eating because this has such an incredible effect on your mental health, particularly if you're in perimenopause or you've already reached menopause and you know whether you want to eat for your brain or eat Ayurveda or whatever your thing is, but what you eat has such an incredible impact on your mind in terms of being able to navigate that unraveling.

And I just find that wild. And one thing I've learned recently is, you know, I mean, we almost have an entire nervous system in our gut. And so literally what we are putting into our bodies, I mean, we know this intellectually, but I think it becomes more and more.

important, you know, in this older, unravelling, you know, well, I think, I think at any age, I mean, you also look at all the kids that are diagnosed with ADHD and, and things and we know, you know, we know the science says that, you know, what what you eat has an impact on things like ADHD, you know, is so I think at any age, but, but that's something that I certainly didn't know when I was was younger is like how

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (49:45.796)
Yes, yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (49:54.765)
Yeah, of course.

Donnaprana (50:03.424)
much my mind can be affected by what I put into my body food wise. Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (50:07.886)
Yeah.

It's so true. I mean, the kindness thing is huge as well because obviously, you know, as a hair and makeup artist and working very intimately with women over so many years, I hear the things that women say about themselves. And of course, this was why when I do these makeup shaker workshops that, you know, we do this mirror work and it's around kind of just looking at that woman in the mirror with kindness, just taking a few moments to look at her and say, you know, it is, it really is.

Donnaprana (50:36.096)
Total game changer.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (50:39.783)
It kind of gets me every time at how many women actually find that quite difficult to look at her with kindness. Yeah.

Donnaprana (50:44.86)
for me too, I mean my private clients, I mean I do a lot of that work and this inability to say nice things to yourself and just to make you laugh. The crystallization for me a couple of years ago was I was taking little Budi here for a walk in the rain in the middle of winter. It was very, very grim. And you know, every time she does something like she puts her paws up on the bench or she jumps, I'm like, Budi, you're amazing. And I had this moment where it was, I mean, just grim, grim weather. And I was like,

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (51:09.41)
Yeah.

Donnaprana (51:14.744)
buddy you're amazing and I literally said to myself out loud on the street Donna why doesn't anybody tell you you're amazing and then all of a sudden I had this light bulb moment I'm like why am I waiting for somebody else to tell me I'm amazing I'm gonna tell myself I'm amazing every single day and so I literally wake up every day I say Donna I love you you're doing an amazing job every time I give my dog a compliment I give the same compliment to myself

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (51:27.66)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (51:31.16)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (51:41.229)
Love it. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Donnaprana (51:43.154)
And it is just, it is just game changing. Like, game changing to change this internal narrative. And yeah, it is also pretty terrifying, like, how many women, even our age, like, struggle to say loving things to themselves.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (51:55.33)
Yeah, yeah, almost especially because they've kind of, you know, gone through years of just this negative commentary anyway. But then of course, you know, you don't look the way that you did in your 20s, 30s, you know, going into your 40s. So, you know, so physically your appearance changes and of course that then, you know, just, like, yes. Yeah, absolutely.

Donnaprana (52:03.275)
Yeah.

Donnaprana (52:06.582)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Donnaprana (52:12.203)
Yeah.

Donnaprana (52:16.128)
Well, and society is telling you, stay young forever, stay young forever. You should look like you're in your 20s when you're in your 50s. I mean, that's why there's Botox and plastic surgery.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (52:22.806)
Yeah, absolutely, it's, you know, so we're kind of, you know, we're not being, society isn't telling you that it's okay to age, you know, you're kind of, there's anti-ageing messages everywhere. So, you know, it's, so it's very difficult to be kind to yourself.

Donnaprana (52:36.427)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (52:39.872)
probably more so at this age in that sense. But yeah, no, I love that. think that's just a wonderful bit of advice that women, I mean, I don't like to use the word should, but please take this on board. It will change your life. Yeah, love that.

Donnaprana (52:40.075)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Donnaprana (52:49.098)
Yeah.

Donnaprana (52:56.788)
It'll change your life. Loving on yourself will change your life.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (53:01.476)
darling, I always love chatting to you. You're just such a joyful spirit. I know this is nothing. You know that we can go forward.

Donnaprana (53:07.04)
know who knows we'd go so deep Sharon you have all the best questions all the best questions

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (53:16.498)
It's been an absolute joy talking to you as ever. You're just this wonderful, I mean like you you say that you're a humanitarian and that just comes out of every pore from you. But also this real kind of warrior woman, know, you're so bloody inspiring, you know. Although I am not going to be calling myself a runner and runner at mountains anytime soon, so you don't inspire me in that way. But you inspire me in many other ways.

Donnaprana (53:34.284)
Hopeless.

Donnaprana (53:42.894)
No need, no need.

Well, you know, I have a rule is to walk up and only ever run flat and down. So, you know, like save your energy is my my is my real tool. I mean, honestly, thank you so much. My my first podcast. So what an honor to do it with you, my dear. I'm really, really, really grateful. And I love how organized and thoughtful you are around this. Like just great questions. And I love this new this new I love this new.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (53:50.465)
Yeah, that sounds like a good, yeah, for sure. Good rule, good rule.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (53:58.147)
Aww.

the honor is mine.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (54:10.499)
Love it!

Donnaprana (54:15.084)
podcast app, I'm going to download this.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (54:16.459)
Yeah, we'll see how this goes, see what the sound quality comes out like and all of those things. anyway, stay on. But thank you so much for chatting today. Been lovely. Absolute joy.

Donnaprana (54:19.808)
Yeah.

Cool.

Donnaprana (54:31.552)
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, Sharon. It is always like a total joy to connect with you.