Stuffed Bras & Salon Floors: The Hilariously Honest Journey of Jenni Spence

What happens when you grow up without a roadmap — no female role models, a mum who handed you a too-big bra and told you to figure it out — and decide to build a life anyway, entirely on self-belief?

You get Jenni Spence.

In this episode of Unravelling: The Diary of a Midlife Mess, I sit down with the hilariously brilliant hairdresser, salon owner and South African-turned-Australian Jenni Spence — who has been cutting, colouring and quietly revolutionising the hair industry for over 40 years.

We talk about a childhood full of Wham posters and makeshift bra stuffing, the strict upbringing that somehow produced a woman who never takes no for an answer, and the career she built from scratch with no blueprint and no safety net. We get into the move to Australia with her son and her parents, the loneliness of starting over in a new country, and the relationship breakdown that unravelled everything  and somehow led to everything good.

We also get into the big stuff: how the industry has changed, why education matters more than ever, managing clients armed with AI images, and what it looks like to keep growing when the world expects you to slow down.

Funny, raw, deeply wise and completely unrepeatable — Jenni is the kind of woman who makes you want to call your friends, go outside, and remind yourself that you are, in fact, bloody marvellous.

Episode themes: resilience, self-belief, reinvention, women in business, hairdressing industry, mentorship, humour, midlife, starting over

 keywords

hairdressing, industry evolution, mentorship, career journey, personal growth, industry change, self-belief, Australia, South Africa, salon success resilience, personal growth, industry evolution, education, humor, authenticity, women in business, life lessons


 key  topics

Childhood and teenage experiences of the speakers
Industry evolution and changing client expectations
The importance of mentorship and role models
Personal growth and resilience in the industry Resilience and overcoming challenges
The evolution of the beauty industry and education
The role of humour and authenticity in personal and professional life


Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Personal Backgrounds
01:58 Childhood Diaries and Teenage Revelations
04:02 Music, Influences, and Cultural Memories
07:01 Perceptions of Womanhood and Fami

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 Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Unravelling: The Diary of a Midlife Mess.

If something resonated with you today, I’d love to hear your thoughts,  come join the conversation on Facebook and Instagram @theglowupguide_au or visit sharonwilkesburt.com
for more resources and support.

Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a review if you’re enjoying the journey so far!

Transcript

Hi Sharon. well, like I said, this is actually, we're in similar fields, but this is the first time that I've actually met you, even though you did my son's beautiful wife's hair. But even on that day, I think we were running around like headless chooks, or you much more than me, so we've never actually met. Hello. Hello, gorgeous. You as well.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (00:38.614)
Yeah. Hello. Lovely to see your gorgeous face and your beautiful, amazing pink hair, but we will, will get onto all that. So welcome to Unraveling the Diary of a Midlife Mess. And this podcast is really about, this kind of is in reference to my own unraveling that I went through in midlife. And the diary part was my...

Jenni Spence (00:47.786)
This is me?

Jenni Spence (00:53.95)
Thanks for having me.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:03.096)
journal that became my absolute saviour. used to take myself down the bit where I still do take myself down the beach most days with my journal. And it was like the place where I would rant, where I would express all gratitude and love and all the rest of it. And so everything went into my diary. But I also had a diary when I was a kid and I found that diary when I was about 40 and it was absolute.

Jenni Spence (01:10.313)
Really.

Jenni Spence (01:17.096)
Yo yo yo.

Jenni Spence (01:22.954)
Mm.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:27.886)
comedy gold because there was all these things that I had created this version of myself as an adult that I thought I was as a teenager and my diary just absolutely called me out on all of it. So was all, you I'd created this kind of, you know, beautiful, innocent version of a 14 year old and I wasn't like that at all. And it was lovely to find. So my first question to you is if I were to find Jenny's teenage diary.

What would I find inside and who would I find inside?

Jenni Spence (01:58.206)
God, filth, disgustingness. was, was a, my teenage.

Do you know what, when I was at school, I loved school. I did speech and drama. I was following that later on in a career. But I loved speech and drama, English. I studied French. I loved history. I was a joker. That might surprise you, actually. I was a bit of a joker. And I even got to be prefect. How on earth? Because I was actually really naughty.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (02:10.316)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (02:27.918)
Not really.

Jenni Spence (02:34.846)
of those girls that sort of smoked or anything like that because schools were much much stricter than they are today. But yeah I just loved schools, loved performing, had an absolute ball. So yeah I was was actually pretty tame, I was a good girl. I'd come home do my homework, I was a little bit of a worrywart because I couldn't go out and play unless I'd done my homework. So I was the ideal child to have as a parent.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (02:40.599)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (02:47.009)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (02:58.855)
okay.

Jenni Spence (03:04.716)
I'm surprised. But then later on, just friggin went for it and went as wild as you possibly could. But I was a good girl. Yeah, absolutely. We thought we'd bred an innocent one. No, no, no, no, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (03:12.15)
Well, you've got to do payback at some time. There has to be a point to which your client's got to go, my God.

She was saving it up. Love that. I actually loved school as well. But school for me was like, it was just a huge social event. You know, I can't sort of say that I went there and I had this great love of learning. I just had this great love of being around my friends and chatting. There's a theme for most of the day. And most of my school reports would have said, Sharon is easily distracted. Sharon talks too much. There was always that theme that, you know.

Jenni Spence (03:46.026)
Haha, yeah, that's right. It was always, always, I mean...

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (03:49.838)
So who would I have found on your bedroom walls at that time as a teenager?

Jenni Spence (03:54.89)
that's interesting. He lied to us terribly, but wham. I loved wham.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (04:01.742)
my God, I loved Wham! I was such a Whammy.

Jenni Spence (04:04.388)
lying bastard that he was. So we all perved over him. But yeah, later on in life, was, yeah, yeah, anyway. Spandau Ballet, I loved Spandau. So it was all the all the bands. Mamma Mia. I loved ABBA. I loved ABBA. So I had three brothers. So I'd be upstairs going, you know, just Monday, Monday, Monday, you know, and all my brothers would be listening to Led Zeppelin or The Stranglers or anything heavy. yeah, you would have found posters of all of

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (04:11.768)
Sharon Wilkes-Burt (04:18.437)
yes.

Jenni Spence (04:34.252)
of the music bands at the time.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (04:36.652)
Yeah, fantastic. And to be fair, we did have some really good bands and music around in the 70s and 80s and, you know, going to the 90s. So I think we were born at a good time, I think. Yeah.

Jenni Spence (04:47.354)
I think we had the best. also it was quite, apart from a few, was really fun music. It wasn't super angry and no swearing. I'm sounding like an old bullet now. But you know, it was quite happy music. know, Michael Jackson, I loved him. Sorry for those people, but I love Michael Jackson. All of that. Yeah, yeah, Good times.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (04:57.918)
No!

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (05:03.104)
Yeah!

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (05:08.186)
Yeah, yeah, no, same, same, same, same. Yeah, I think good times. So for you, who were, or what did the women around you look like? I mean, what did they teach you? I mean, about what being a woman could be. I mean, obviously you said you had three brothers. So obviously there's kind of like a, there's a real kind of mix there in the household.

Jenni Spence (05:31.274)
Oh yeah, there was no input and my mom had a very harsh upbringing with her mom. So she didn't have a role model to guide her because her mom was really, really strict. So with me, like if you're menstruating or your first bra or anything like that, mom gave...

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (05:38.126)
Mmm.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (05:52.877)
Yeah.

Jenni Spence (05:54.93)
Mom gave me her hand-me-down lace bra, which was about 20 sizes too big, so I just stuffed it, you know, just and walked around like Dolly Parton on, you know, just in the wrong way. You know, your period, I remember coming home from school just going, this has happened. And she's sort of going, well, here's a tampax, which was about this size, the size of a friggin, you know, a bourrevose roll. And then she said, go and sort yourself out. So I remember walking down to my best friend's house

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (05:58.496)
Okay.

Love, love this.

Jenni Spence (06:24.984)
having sorted myself out, swaddling like a Western horseback rider thinking this was normal, know, because it was sticking out halfway. Sorry, it's a bit, yeah, but they're not quite little things like they are today. This thing was about frigging that way long and I had no idea. So there I was like, so I had...

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (06:30.242)
Ha ha ha!

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (06:37.442)
No, no.

Jenni Spence (06:49.77)
I had very little guidance from my mom. I think that's why I'm makeup obsessed now and just such a girly girl. It was because of that, but it's not that I'm blaming her, it's just that she didn't have a role model. So I didn't have a role model. So then I've taught myself. So I was interested, so I went that way. Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (06:56.576)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (07:01.92)
No! No!

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (07:08.416)
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's so, that's so interesting.

Jenni Spence (07:12.53)
So, consequently with hair, I mean, my brother cut my hair. He was studying mechanical engineering for God's sake. So I naturally looked like this frigging, do you remember what was, what was that band called? They all had massive hair and then like shaved on the sides. Not the stray cats, there was another one, but I looked a bit like the stray cats, you know, like massive dome and.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (07:29.55)
not like Aerosmith or... okay. And there was banana ramen. There was a few, actually, to be fair. mean, it the 80s. There was a lot of big hair. I mean, we're kind of sport for choice, really.

Jenni Spence (07:43.818)
It was. But she never took me to the hair salon either. So all of the girly things, I was never exposed to. Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (07:52.91)
Right, okay. And this is so interesting, Bean, as what you went into, because obviously, as you said before, you know, you're a hairdresser, you've been in the industry for almost 40 years, which is crazy, because obviously, both you and I are both only about 36, really. So it's amazing that we've been hairdressing for longer than we've actually been alive. So who for you was the...

Jenni Spence (08:02.314)
40 years, 41 years, yeah yeah.

Jenni Spence (08:08.692)
Hahaha!

Yeah, I know,

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (08:18.016)
Was there a person like in your industry or in your life who genuinely believed in you as an early influence?

Jenni Spence (08:28.958)
No.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (08:30.774)
No. So this is like, this is a career built on self belief and yeah.

Jenni Spence (08:31.869)
No.

Jenni Spence (08:36.916)
Completely. Completely. So I had no role models. I didn't. I've pretty much motivated and geared myself up and challenged myself and done everything basically by me. Me. So I didn't have any role models. I had nobody. So I can't say that. That sounds awful, doesn't it?

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (08:57.964)
Yeah.

love that.

No, no, not at all. mean, I think it's, yeah, I don't know. I don't know if I would answer differently, to be honest. I don't know if there were. I don't know if I did. I don't know if I did, to be honest, as in somebody that I wanted to be like, because I think I was just like, I still am figuring it out as I went along the way. was nobody that I particularly wanted to be as such, you know, just like.

Jenni Spence (09:15.902)
Who was your role model? Did you have one?

Jenni Spence (09:22.58)
Never.

Jenni Spence (09:31.388)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (09:33.624)
the next version of me, whatever that was, you know, there's always been, I think I've always been more curious than kind of like guided towards something, you know, like, well, wonder what this will be like, what it'd be like if I did that.

Jenni Spence (09:36.21)
Yeah.

Jenni Spence (09:43.731)
No.

Yeah, I mean, there people along your way. I mean, if you ask me now, it'll be a different story. But when I was growing up, you can look at somebody and admire them for what they've achieved or their work or something like that. But I think when I was much younger, there was nothing. No. No.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (09:53.166)
Mmm.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (10:08.462)
No, no. I mean, like, if I think about it, there were probably, there were definitely teachers that I had that I admired and

Jenni Spence (10:17.674)
Mm.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (10:21.452)
And later years, I would say I admire them because of their style of teaching, because it was kind of like they weren't particularly, you know, was like, it wasn't my way or the highway. was kind of like, you know, you can try it, give it a go, which then very much became my way of teaching as well. That kind of like, don't know, suck it and see. Let's see what that, let's have a go. See if it works. that didn't work. You know, so I guess there was, yeah. So I think there were 40 people in that way.

Jenni Spence (10:34.291)
Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah, absolutely. no, I look back when I was much younger and I don't think there's anybody that I can say that sort of like, whoa, it was, they've, you know, I want to be like them or I want to, yeah. Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (10:53.697)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (10:57.42)
Yeah. And interestingly as well, I mean, I know obviously you and I are both in the same, you know, we both fought the same career path in a sense, but I don't recall there being many older hairdressers that we could look up to and look and kind of go and say, there's a long career ahead of me. And certainly not long female hairdressers, know, long, certain female hairdressers that were definitely your, your Trevor Sorbis and your Vidal Sassoon's and yeah. Yeah. But I don't recall.

Jenni Spence (11:20.074)
So be your Tony and guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Vidal Sassoon's your...

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (11:25.986)
that many women in that role of having a long career as a hairdresser.

Jenni Spence (11:31.794)
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely right. I mean, I first studied because I wanted to be, I was interested in drama and I'd done a lot of radio work in South Africa. So that was also my passion. So really I wanted to do stage makeup in London, but my folks couldn't, yeah. So that was my first passion, but my folks couldn't afford it. So I did a lot of radio work. thought my, listening to your voice, you always think I've sounded dark and sultry.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (11:47.886)
Sharon Wilkes-Burt (11:53.164)
Uh-huh.

Jenni Spence (12:01.928)
and you know whatever but I always got the high rolls you know the the maiden that was abandoned by her lover or something. BASKET!

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (12:02.668)
Hahaha

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (12:07.534)
I love this! So what was this? this pre-, was this post-school? Was this after school? Or was this like when you were still at school? Right, okay.

Jenni Spence (12:16.65)
This was just after school, yes, when I was studying a diploma through London, through England.

And then, you know, some of my peers who were teaching me were doing radio work. And that's where in the old days, you listened if you were ill, you listened to your radio. They had something called the mind of Tracy Dark, know, da da da da. You know, know, Morkham and Wise and all of the old ones. what, Dad and I went to a taping of something.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (12:36.65)
Yes, of course, yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (12:41.131)
Jenni Spence (12:50.09)
one of the carry-ons or something. Anyway, it was awesome. But that was my passion. But also these things, you were so limited then, it leads you to virtually nothing. Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (13:00.59)
Oh, yeah, yes, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I remember I wanted when I was at school, I actually wanted to be a makeup artist. That was what I wanted to do. And I wanted to go and work in film and theatre. But saying to your careers teacher in like 1985 that you wanted to be a makeup artist was a little bit like saying you want to be an astronaut. I mean, there was just no such it was kind of like one of those. Oh, cool. I have no idea what that means. So there was and there was no you you had to live in London or work for the BBC. There was no natural outlets.

Jenni Spence (13:08.663)
okay. Yeah.

Jenni Spence (13:18.183)
Yeah, yeah.

Jenni Spence (13:27.582)
Well that's exactly it, yes. Yes.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (13:29.612)
you know, for it. So I actually ended up in hairdressing as a mistake because, well, I mean, like it wasn't what I wanted to do. I think I think my careers teacher had said in that kind of like looking down his list of six jobs that girls can do, you you can be you can be a beauty therapist. But to be a beauty therapist, you had a really good grades in science. And I was

Jenni Spence (13:42.442)
Okay, yeah, Yes.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (13:50.466)
talking at science, that was never going to work for me. So I actually did hairdressing as a kind of like, well, I'll do this and then I'll get into that. And then by the time I'm 37, I'll have earned enough to be able to go and be a beauty whatever it was, you know, so, so there's a long path ahead of me. But yeah, but that was that was the word jobs for makeup artists like there are today or it wasn't even a, a easy thing to get into.

Jenni Spence (14:03.879)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Jenni Spence (14:13.866)
Well, not at all. then can you, cause you were based in England at that time, weren't you? Yeah. Well, I was based in South Africa. So can you imagine wanting to, cause I wanted to do stage makeup, you know, make like for, what was the latest one now? Frankenstein with Jacob Wasabi. I always call him Wasabi cause I can never remember. Thank you. You know, I wanted to do that.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (14:18.294)
Yes, yeah yeah yeah, yeah, yes that's even further. Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (14:30.158)
Oh yes! Is that a loady? Wasabi works!

Jenni Spence (14:42.686)
Jacob was savvy. don't know how well that would go down, but never mind. Yeah, that's right. But yeah, I mean, I was dreadful at maths. I'm very good up here, but as you know, just adding figures up here. But as soon as you put algebra in, that's me, I'm absolutely stuffed. So they said, Jenny, don't do math, go and do typing. So that was your A-S-D-F-Semi-L-A-J.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (14:44.142)
Let's just keep that one going.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (15:04.024)
Bye.

So we call it an LKJ.

Jenni Spence (15:11.944)
Yeah, so I got to do that, but my real passion was doing the stage makeup. So when that fell through, I went to teaching and then I realized I friggin' couldn't bear it. I was involved with young children, so was like, friggin' no, man, I'm over this. They bring you the snob-nosed children, bring you pictures that don't even look like a tree. And I was just like, friggin', get out of here.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (15:34.83)
That's not a tree.

Jenni Spence (15:36.72)
You've got the power to completely mess their minds up, you know? What's this, Johnny? Yes, silly child. Anyway, so, then I went into hairdressing. I think because of my best friend, my best friend had Jamillion Pier, and I used to go into the salon on occasions. then mom just said, come on, you lazy fat cow.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (15:57.344)
Okay.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (16:01.966)
Pfft! Well you were still walking like a cowboy because obviously you don't.

Jenni Spence (16:02.538)
whilst I was lounging on the schizeland. Yeah. How you doing? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and then I just studied my apprenticeship. Yeah. Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (16:11.022)
You

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (16:16.428)
Right, okay, wow. that's, yeah, so it's funny actually because there's a, there are very few people I know that kind of like actually wanted to do hairdressing and got into it. That wasn't that kind of, aren't that many of us that kind of aspired to be and then went into it. It's always a kind of like a sort of almost landed here path.

Jenni Spence (16:34.14)
You're absolutely right. There's so many people that say to me, even now, I'd always wanted to do hairdressing, but they never sort of followed their accountants now or something. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but they've just gone other routes.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (16:42.157)
Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, as you know, I I used to do a lot of teaching and a lot of education and I'd have people that were kind of like, you know, had studied, as you say, they'd studied law or they'd studied marketing, but there was this kind of like passion to kind of like, oh, but I really want to play with hair inside and I used to get quite a lot of a lot of those. So for you in your 20s, what did what did success look like to you in your 20s?

Jenni Spence (17:02.418)
Yeah, yeah, Yeah.

Jenni Spence (17:15.632)
sure but what did it look like in my 20s?

You can see you haven't given me any pre-questions because I really had to think about this. So 2021. Well, was still studying hairdressing, remember, because I went into hairdressing when I think I was about 19, because I'd been studying speech and drama before that. I was still a good girl. I was still a pretty good girl, focused, whatever. I'd have the odd disco, you go out and do your disco stuff.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (17:23.438)
No.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (17:35.682)
Uh-huh.

Yeah, and telling children that pictures look rubbish.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (17:47.584)
Yeah.

Jenni Spence (17:50.1)
I was still a pretty good girl, had a couple of boyfriends. But I think kind of when I got to about 23 and had my first contiki tour, that's where everything sort of, you know, found my love of alcohol. Yeah, that's when things began to unravel a bit.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (18:02.67)
Your world opened up.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Jenni Spence (18:12.86)
Yeah, I was very focused on my career and I had a brilliant, do call them? Who guided you? Who taught you the hairdressing? A mentor? I think if anybody, probably Yvonne was somebody who I looked up to a lot. was a very strong woman, very focused, very driven, a brilliant hairdresser. God, she could wind a perm in a full head in about 20. I couldn't pass up the rods fast enough that she would wind them. She was unbelievable.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (18:22.914)
Like mentor. Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (18:40.658)
wow, okay. There's gonna be hairdressers take over. What do you mean, Rods? What do you mean, a perm? What do you mean? They don't do it, tape anymore. No, I know. When it comes back, they're all gonna be screwed.

Jenni Spence (18:42.764)
So.

Yeah, I know. But they don't do it at TAFE anymore. They don't, I know. And I would love it if they would introduce... I know, absolutely. And we're just trying to like Errol Douglas in London. We're trying to get curly hair recognised in TAFE's. So it's part of a curriculum. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (19:08.705)
Yes.

Yes, yeah. Actually, it's funny you should say that. I'm just going to go off topic here for a second. But I remember, we had, we did have a guy come in when I was teaching, when I was at Hairdressing College to teach us how to do afro hair, because obviously it was the 80s. There was still kind of like the, there was the hangover from the big 70s afros. And it was kind of getting more to that kind of slick, shiny, you know, very glistening afro hair. But it's, but it's funny, like it was almost a different skill set.

Jenni Spence (19:15.176)
Yes.

Jenni Spence (19:30.252)
yeah, yeah.

Jenni Spence (19:33.944)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (19:40.336)
And obviously I know, this is the kind of route that you went down in terms of curly hair, but we'll come to that a little later. But yeah, you're right. mean, it wasn't kind of like, wasn't something that was part of the mainstream or part of your hairdressing education really, which is nuts.

Jenni Spence (19:45.234)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jenni Spence (19:53.77)
No, definitely not. up until, I mean, even we've just come back from Africa, a lot of people, most are still wearing braids, are still wearing wigs. They still want sort of the Beyonce look, you know. So it's a very interesting field. Anyway, don't get me started, I'll rattle on.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (20:06.264)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (20:09.698)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, for sure. So we go back to this time of your twenties and we're talking about what success looked like. At that point, did you have any aspirations of having a salon or was it a certain kind of client that you were after or no, so there was just doing the work at this point.

Jenni Spence (20:25.52)
No none at all. No, no nothing.

I just wanted to have really, really good training and I just wanted to get into a really, really good salon. after Yvonne, I worked with her for a bit and then moved up to the top salon. I did a lot of traveling the world, mentoring myself, training, entering competitions. I was always driven like that.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (20:39.212)
Yes.

Jenni Spence (20:56.286)
you know, to be better, to be better. I wasn't happy just, you know, just doing the odd client. I just wanted to be better. And yeah, it grew basically from there. Yeah. And then after 10 years, was, know, loyalty, I'm a Scorpio. So loyalty means so much to me, honestly. It's the most important bloody factor.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (20:56.557)
Yes.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (21:07.233)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (21:15.97)
Yeah.

Jenni Spence (21:15.998)
but I got so sick and tired of people coming in going, know, people had come and gone, obviously, you know, I'm getting married, I'm moving here, I'm going here, whatever. And they were coming in after about nine, 10 years going, Jenny, so you're still here. And eventually I just went, fuck.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (21:24.108)
Yes.

Jenni Spence (21:33.012)
But I'm opening up my own and that's where I just went, no, I love you, Terry, but that's it. I'm out of here, Yeah, so I had my own for about two years after that, two, three years, and then sold it to emigrate over to Oz. Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (21:33.966)
You

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (21:38.996)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (21:47.306)
Okay, so what age were you when you moved to Australia or how old were you or your family? okay and did you have kids at that time? Did you have the kids at that time? Yes, right okay.

Jenni Spence (21:50.986)
I was 37. I was 37. Sorry, Hugo. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I had my 11-year-old son. So just had one son. And yeah, I sold the shop. And from the sale of my shop, I could buy a car. The exchange rate was dreadful. So all I could buy was a car.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (22:09.568)
You

Jenni Spence (22:12.502)
And yeah, over we came. I came over with my mom and dad because if it wasn't for them, I couldn't have opened up my own salon. Would have been impossible because I was working six days a week, freaking absolutely, because I worked eight months for a salon and then I opened up my own after eight months. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (22:20.875)
Right.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (22:33.002)
Okay, right. And is it the salon that you've got today? Yes. Wow. Okay.

Jenni Spence (22:38.122)
So it's been, I've been in Australia 22 years. I've had Aoki for 21 years.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (22:43.534)
my gosh, wow, wow. So tell us about Aoki. What is Aoki for people that because it's first of does the name mean?

Jenni Spence (22:46.408)
Yeah.

Jenni Spence (22:51.946)
The name. People often say, yeah, people often say, is it African? You're from Africa. Haven't you chosen an African name? But my son's name is Devin. I've always loved this model called Devin Aoki, who is Steve Aoki. He was a DJ. It's his sister.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (22:53.87)
What does it mean?

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (23:10.542)
Jenni Spence (23:14.472)
So I went, you know, I can't call it Jenny Spence. Nobody knows me, man. What must I call it Jenny Spence for? I can't call it, you know, Errol Douglas. So I just went for Aoki. And that's how it came about. Yeah. had Japanese. When I first opened, I had Japanese people coming in. It's Japanese for blue tree. You know, it could have meant friggin', you know, just chronic ballsack or something. I didn't even know that.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (23:15.103)
Ahhhh!

you

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (23:24.672)
A-OK. Does this guy know?

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (23:33.07)
okay.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (23:43.934)
I didn't know what you were going to say then. At least, I was going to say at least it wasn't something rude, but you know, that's, you're quite right. It could have been something.

Jenni Spence (23:45.192)
I didn't.

Jenni Spence (23:49.29)
Well, I didn't know what it meant in Japanese, but I even had some Japanese people coming in going, you know, we want to be cut by honor. And so I come out and they go, you're not Japanese. And I go, you think? Anyway, so they never stay. just buzz off. But it's, yeah, it's Japanese for blue tree. Aoki. Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (23:54.893)
you

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (23:59.694)
I

You

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (24:08.077)
Right, okay. that's so yeah, that's interesting. That's just my own personal I wanted to know that because obviously I've known of yourself for a long time, but I no idea what that meant. So there we go. So then what did

Jenni Spence (24:18.506)
Yeah, yeah, nor did I in the beginning actually, so...

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (24:25.614)
your or what did you think your life you know in your in your sort of younger years of you maybe it's about to 2030s again what did you think your life would look like at 40 and were you right this is obviously before you've gone before you've made the move to australia and all those things when you had you sort of had aspirations of travel moving to australia or any of those things

Jenni Spence (24:48.122)
None of them. None of them. I was just busy working, raising my son. You know, relationship was a little bit difficult at that time. So I think I was focused more on that aspect than what was actually happening in my life.

But so I wasn't really, where am I going? What am I doing? I was more focusing on the moment, things out. Yeah, just raising my son and just getting through life. Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (25:22.326)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (25:26.434)
Yeah, I often think the same thing, like certainly through my 30s, and I've said this so many times, I actually don't recall my 30s, or I don't recall who I was in my 30s, because you're so busy, you're raising kids, you know, and there's no time for kind of any sort of existential kind of, you know, who am I today? You know, where do I stand in this? What are my thoughts around this? You're literally trying, you know, you're pulling

Jenni Spence (25:38.524)
Yeah, that's true.

Yeah.

Jenni Spence (25:49.757)
Yeah.

Yes.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (25:54.604)
chewing them out your hair or whatever it is, or, you know, just trying to get through. So I don't, as I say, I don't recall my thirties, but I guess if you were, if you kind of reflect back on those, was, was it a period for you, were you building, were you surviving? Was it both?

Jenni Spence (25:56.53)
Yeah, yeah.

Jenni Spence (26:12.252)
I think for me, I was very much a single parent because I've often said this, even though you're married, you can very much be a single parent.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (26:19.47)
For sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Jenni Spence (26:22.376)
You know, and so for me, that aspect was very, very hard. I was just trying to keep a family together, keep everything going, run a business, work in a business. Yeah. So that was my focus, bringing up my beautiful boy and yeah, and just trying to keep a family together, which is quite hard when you've got one who is not taking.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (26:44.375)
Yeah.

Jenni Spence (26:49.97)
responsibility in creating a family environment.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (26:55.02)
Yeah, for sure.

Jenni Spence (26:55.37)
So that was actually quite a hard period for me personally. But I never really lost sight or sense of humour and I think that's it. Sense of humour just, my God, gets you through everything. It really does. And the support of my folks. mean, they've always, they both passed now, but they were always very, very supportive in any situation.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (27:00.716)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (27:13.608)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (27:21.998)
Yeah, yeah, that's, mean, it is so important. Well, I mean, it's, it's, if not the support of your folks, then having a circle around you that holds you up, because there are many times in life that we kind of, that we need that, you know. So if we were to, if I was to say, you know, through your 20s, 30s, actually, we'll go into your 40s, what was going on for you?

Jenni Spence (27:35.486)
Yes.

Jenni Spence (27:41.214)
definitely.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (27:50.158)
What was going on for you in your 40s? Obviously you were over in Australia then, you've got your salon!

Jenni Spence (27:52.138)
my

Yeah, my lord. Well in South Africa you're quite spoiled, you know, because you do have your maids. You can work as hard as you can, but then you come home and your linen's gorgeous, your house smells like friggin' roses, the meals are cooked, and this is every day. I said, when we came over here, had mom, it was a tight, now remember we've come from a massive home, you know, very luxurious, beautiful, and then mom was in, one was,

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (28:01.965)
Yes.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (28:11.735)
Yeah.

Jenni Spence (28:25.606)
tiny little townhouse. Mum was in one room, most of the time she was sobbing with the door closed. think Dad had sold his very successful business and was hoovering the house, I think in chronic depression. And then I had found a job and was sorting out my son. So it was a bloody nightmare. We all came here together. Yes, it was very, very hard.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (28:43.384)
so you'd all come over here together.

okay, right, okay, wow!

Yeah, and no mates!

Jenni Spence (28:52.05)
You know, it was very hard. Even the birds are different. You know, these bloody crows, gah, gah. And I was coping with mom and coping with Dev and he got bullied and they broke in and stole everything from our house. And I remember saying to mom, what the hell? What the

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (28:56.46)
Ha ha ha!

Jenni Spence (29:10.602)
So that was really, really hard time. But after about 17 years, no I'm only joking, after about probably about three years, it got a lot easier. You started making friends, there was a pattern, you didn't mind the birds so much and yeah, it started to flow. Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (29:10.903)
Yes.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (29:16.748)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (29:22.03)
You

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (29:34.238)
Yes.

Yeah, yeah, you're right. It does. I mean, like it does take a while to kind of adapt and adjust. And actually, it's funny when I go back to the UK now, the birds song is one of those things that I kind of go, that's, I remember this. I remember birds that would Twitter and not shout at you first thing in the morning. Get up, get up. I remember Twittering.

Jenni Spence (29:50.836)
Hahaha

I know.

Jenni Spence (30:00.414)
Well, we're to the hardy dars and those sort of things. So there's these mournful bloody crows we're doing our heads in. But yeah, then I bought a house and...

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (30:06.686)
Hahaha

Jenni Spence (30:13.386)
I was just working as hard as I possibly could. And that's where mom and dad would step in. So if Dev had a soccer match or anything like that, they would go unless it was on a Sunday. But you know what kids are like. He'd phone me at the salon and go, mom, I forgot my bathing costume. So I'd say to a client, all right, so we're going to do a complimentary treatment. I'd get my cat like, hee hee hee, and I'd throw it over the fence to him.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (30:18.414)
Hmm.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (30:36.238)
You

just gonna...

Right, okay.

Jenni Spence (30:43.53)
So it's hard being a single parent, but in a way when I came over here, I had the support of mom and dad, which was awesome. Yeah. So I could get through that whilst I was building up the salon. Yeah. So that was pretty much my folkies.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (30:50.698)
Yes, yeah, yeah, that's amazing.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (30:57.134)
Hmm. So in the salon, yeah, I mean, that's yeah, I mean, that's and that's still kind of like, I mean, that's still hard work, isn't it? My forties, my forties was hard work. And I think my forties, I think, were it's almost like because your kids are a bit older and they don't need you quite so much that you have a bit of a little bit more time and space than you did when you were kind of waiting for them at bottom of a slide or whatever it was, you know, you've got a bit more.

Jenni Spence (31:24.508)
Yes, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (31:25.666)
your time to do things, but also you then go and fill that with lots and lots of busy things. So my forties, I would say, were really, really, really busy. We moved over here to Australia when I was 43. and you, you dive straight in, you're trying to make it normal for your kids. You're trying to kind of put your life back together, having completely dissolved it at the other end. And you're trying to put it all back together here. And, and like in that.

Jenni Spence (31:31.945)
Yes.

Jenni Spence (31:45.0)
hmm hmm

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (31:50.574)
sense of like, oh nothing to see here, we're all completely normal, I'm not having a nervous breakdown, we're just, you know, so it's just, it's nuts, you know. But of course, you know, for you obviously, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, nothing to see here. Of course the crows sound beautiful in the mornings. What a lovely chorus. Oh dear.

Jenni Spence (31:54.312)
Yeah, yeah,

Jenni Spence (32:01.082)
so you went through that as well, okay. Nice to hear, yeah.

Yeah.

Jenni Spence (32:14.762)
So melodic. Yeah, but it is hard. Do you have brothers or sisters? Okay, is she here or in the UK?

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (32:21.142)
I've got a sister. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, she's here too. Yeah, so when we first moved here, she was already living over here. So we had that kind of, that contact as it were when we first here. But even still, you're still kind of a bit kind of lost at sea looking for...

Jenni Spence (32:33.864)
Yes.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (32:40.074)
what feels normal, feels like, you know, what you're used to. And of course, you know, apart from that, we all drive on the same side of the road and we speak the same language, there wasn't a whole lot that was the same.

Jenni Spence (32:45.6)
definitely, yeah.

Jenni Spence (32:50.878)
Well, I don't know about that. Plimpsles, what? Plimpsles? I said I'm going to get my costume. Plimpsles, yeah. I mean, some of the languages. Well, in South Africa, we say robots. We don't say traffic lights. So I stopped at the robots, yeah, and everybody was like... So it took me about three years to get over that. Three, four years. Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (33:00.91)
you

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (33:05.222)
okay. Yes.

But I there's a lot of changes. I mean to be fair you can be in the UK and we'll have like 15 different words and this will be contested all the time for the word bun, you know, it can be a bun or a roll or a cob or a bap or a cake. So, you know, so it's not even an Australian, that's just an English thing. We're infighting with ourselves all the time in our language. I've got two. I've got...

Jenni Spence (33:27.4)
or a cake. Yeah, yeah, yeah, true.



Sharon Wilkes-Burt (34:39.638)
Was there a time when you first felt the shift, whether that was in clients or in culture, from what was expected from you and from the experience of sitting in the chair for clients?

Jenni Spence (34:55.626)
Can you expand on that a little bit?

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (34:57.846)
Yeah, so obviously, you know, we have, we've been in this for a very long time. So there has been a shift in the culture, you know, I mean, it's first of all, people are now seeing what we do. And again, this is through the joys of like Instagram and social media, that as an actual craft, as an actual art, you know, it's something that deserves kind of, you know, and obviously the industry is quite splintered as well in the sense that you'll have

Jenni Spence (35:01.692)
Yes, yeah, yeah, definitely.

Jenni Spence (35:11.85)
Yes, I was just going to say...

Absolutely.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (35:24.332)
blonde specialists and curl specialists and you know so so what's your experience of that?

Jenni Spence (35:25.968)
Absolutely, okay, yes, So now I know what you're saying, sorry. It's shifted so much, I mean, from the days where you just put a cap on somebody's head and pulled through.

to now micro foiling and balayage and ombre and you've got so many different aspects of colour which is so exciting. The cutting techniques have changed. I had a young girl 10 years of age and I said do you have any inspiration photos? Now you must bear in mind I've never been to a hair salon ever at that age. She brings out pictures and she says yes she was a lovely girl but super confident and I think that's also what I'm seeing is how confident these young girls

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (35:39.17)
Yes.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (35:46.455)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (35:58.486)
Yeah, no.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (36:04.854)
Yeah.

Jenni Spence (36:08.844)
are and what they know what they exactly what that they want by anything so that's that's the shift that I've notice change a lot yes specialists in all forms like we don't do weddings like we used to because they go out to people like you or other people that are getting wedding and makeup specialists

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (36:14.156)
Mmm.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (36:30.22)
Yes, yes. Yeah. Yes, for sure.

Jenni Spence (36:36.648)
So I'm constantly asked, will you come out? And I'm going, no, it's not what we do anymore. So from that sphere, it's all very specific. So that's changed a lot. Education, it's just so nice to see the amount of education out there. But you can only be as hungry as you want to be. Some people you can't teach.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (36:44.364)
Yes, yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (36:50.573)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (37:02.638)
Mmm, yeah.

Jenni Spence (37:05.17)
basically, but it's really, really shifted. And in some ways it's wonderful to see, but in some ways it's very, very scary because you know what that's like. Some people will show me a picture, I want my hair curls like this, and I'll say, do you know that's either AI or HD curled to look like that.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (37:10.679)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (37:23.182)
Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%. I mean, like, it's most I mean, to be fair, let's just let's just go with it's going to be 90 % is going to be AI right now, because that's most what most of it is, which is obviously unrealistic. So of course, then you're having to manage expectations with clients and

Jenni Spence (37:30.484)
Yeah.

Jenni Spence (37:36.978)
I know.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (37:38.21)
But you're right, when you say about kind of the good and the scary, I think the great thing about it is that the industry has opened up to education because of course it was almost like it was a secret thing. know, one salon wouldn't tell the other salon where they've got their training or, you know, it was very, this kind of secret society world. you know, and it was like, you know, you couldn't say, you couldn't say that you, you know, so that was, and it was interesting for me as an, as an educator, because when I was doing my, my hair academy, I was doing, you

Jenni Spence (37:45.47)
Yes.

Jenni Spence (37:50.222)
yeah that's right yes yes yes yeah yeah that's right yeah yeah yeah no no no no that's right

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (38:08.184)
master classes and workshops, would get predominantly makeup artists come for training because hairdressers didn't like to admit that they didn't know how to do it. So it's this real kind of like, you know, there's almost this shame to be admitting that you don't know how to do something. And it's such a, you know, no, no, not at all.

Jenni Spence (38:09.81)
Yes.

Jenni Spence (38:18.226)
Okay. That's important. Yes.

Jenni Spence (38:26.886)
Yeah, but it's not at all. My biggest fear would be, because I'm turning 62 this year, so my biggest fear would be a young, gorgeous girl comes in, a young girl comes in and says to me, Jenny, can you do, know, mentions a name? And I don't know how to do that. I don't want to go, yeah, it won't be a sec, yeah, and then go out the back and go, shit, what, you know, how do I do that? So that's why education is so important.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (38:47.219)
Yes, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yep.

Jenni Spence (38:53.746)
It doesn't matter if you don't have the money, make a plan. If you want to get ahead, who wants to be just an ordinary, you know, back in a backstreet salon, just doing a blow wave after blow wave. Growth. Yeah, absolutely. Not everyone's like that. Sorry.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (39:03.018)
Yeah, with no gross. Yeah, yeah. But I think that's where no, I guess. But interestingly, like we were saying at the beginning about this not having this kind of person that we were aspiring to be in a sense, because there's that inner drive isn't there. And I know, you know, I feel that we're probably the same in that, you know, we're kind of like always driven to kind of explore more that curiosity, what would it be like, and as you say, not wanting to

Jenni Spence (39:20.158)
There's a drive, yeah. Exactly.

Jenni Spence (39:27.057)
apps that yes.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (39:31.842)
be written out the game for your age, but still kind of keeping on top of it, know, still keeping ahead of it.

Jenni Spence (39:34.694)
Exactly. Exactly. That's it. mean, that's perfectly said. That's perfectly said. mean, and that's why you want to surround yourself with people better than you.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (39:41.25)
Yeah.

Jenni Spence (39:47.742)
because you can only get that knowledge from people that are better than you. I've just come back from New York where I went to head of the game. She's brilliant. And there's a lot of incredible people out there. I met them on this course and they were like a third of my age. I was definitely the oldest one there, flown halfway around the world. these girls, these young girls were teaching me things. You can never say you know it all, never ever. You know that in any,

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (39:48.012)
Yes.

absolutely.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (40:01.891)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (40:07.66)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (40:12.15)
Yeah, yeah, love that. No.

Jenni Spence (40:17.676)
career. You're toast.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (40:19.382)
Yeah, absolutely. I was teaching at college for a good few years and I remember, I had so many incredible students and I've gone back to some of those students.

to for training for kind of like for one-to-one masterclasses because they're so good at what they do now they've kind of really perfected something whether that be skin or eyes or whatever it is and I've gone back to them and kind of gone show me how to do that thing you do so I think you have to let go of your ego all this kind of sense of you know I've been doing this for ages cool but if you're doing what you were doing 30 years ago and you're still doing that on repeat then you're not actually growing or learning anything so yeah

Jenni Spence (40:36.903)
Absolutely.

Jenni Spence (40:43.081)
Yeah.

Jenni Spence (40:47.272)
your ego completely.

Jenni Spence (40:55.09)
you exactly then you're not growing at all, not growing at all. And I said, coming over from having had my own successful salon in South Africa to emigrating over here, working in the salon and shampooing for the apprentices, you have got, I don't know a hairdresser in South Africa that would have gone through what I went through. You know, and that, and going back to what you said though, Sharon, about ego is you cannot have an ego, you know.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (41:09.643)
Mmm.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (41:15.776)
No, no.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (41:22.376)
No, no. Well, if you do, you're closing off your capacity for learning. And that's, and that's where we grow, isn't it? If you kind of go, I'm too good for this, then you know, then you've, it's stopped there, hasn't it really? So you just have to, yeah, yeah, you have to keep carrying on. But then I think going back to the, what was the scary thing is like when you have that

Jenni Spence (41:28.21)
Yes, I'll completely.

Jenni Spence (41:32.562)
Yes.

Then you've lost the plot completely. Yeah, think, yeah, absolutely.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (41:47.726)
10 year old that's bringing in those photos or that bringing in the kind of like she definitely wants this. Those are 10 year olds that aren't the 10 year olds that we were, you know, we didn't, I don't recall actually, you saying that I wanted to look like Olivia Newton John. That's a look I was about to come tell a complete lie then. We didn't want to look like anybody. I did. I wanted to be Olivia Newton John.

Jenni Spence (42:01.746)
Hahaha!

Jenni Spence (42:06.858)
Fair enough. Yeah, I think we all wanted to emulate somebody. I probably was more Kate Bush, but yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (42:11.406)
But today there's that very much that kind of like, you know, this idea of beauty that's kind of, our kids are kind of bombarded with a whole lot more than I think we ever were, you know.

Jenni Spence (42:24.65)
completely.

And I actually said, you talked to you, chat to clients and you, you know, you banter and it's a scary world out there right now. I'll tell you, I would not like to be growing up young at this age when you're surrounded by all these.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (42:42.026)
Yeah.

Jenni Spence (42:45.066)
false, falseness of faces, of hair, of attitudes, of the Kardashians, of... And it's very much an ego-based society at the moment. Everything has to be quick. It's look at me. They want instant gratification. I'll get DMs, you know, and if I don't respond straight away, then I get question marks sent to me. And I'm like, and that's a Sunday. Excuse me. I'm having...

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (42:47.662)
Mmm.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (42:53.367)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (42:56.925)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (43:08.462)
Yes, it's a Sunday. Go away! I was being polite there with the go away. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jenni Spence (43:13.918)
No, exactly, fish and chips bugger off. So I find, yeah, I find that quite difficult to deal with the arrogance of some people these days, yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (43:26.734)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think the just the expectation that we're always available, you know, mean, at one time, you were available when your salon was open, and that was the end of it, you know, but now it's the kind of like, you know, as you say, it's the question marks that come on a Sunday night, you're kind of like, cool, I'll answer you. Yeah, yeah.

Jenni Spence (43:32.489)
Yes.

Jenni Spence (43:35.902)
And that was it, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so, but that's what I mean. In some aspects, it's actually, you know, it's wonderful, but in other aspects, it's quite scary. But then I also think that's the parents setting the role model for the child, you know, manners. Hello, thank you. All of those sorts of things. Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (43:59.31)
Mmm.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (44:04.182)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah.

Jenni Spence (44:08.126)
So you can have one young girl who comes in 10 years of age. No, 15, I had two 15 year olds. And the one was an absolute nightmare. She was so rude. Her mom was really heavy work. And I'm not gonna give my energy because if anybody knows me, they know I'm the most nurturing, kind, wonderful, you I think I'm pretty awesome. Yeah, there's a little bit there, like, but most of it's that way. And she was just a nice,

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (44:28.174)
Mmm.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (44:31.872)
Yeah, me too. Yeah.

Jenni Spence (44:38.11)
me and I thought you know what I finished your hair looks magnificent it's magnificent and then it kind of kind of makes you a bit sad and then you have this other 15 year old that just love it just couldn't stop smiling and just thank you and then her mom was you know they're from the country and she couldn't have been more lovely so I think it's also that whole thing about I don't know how you feel about this but like attracts like big time

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (44:51.521)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (44:57.227)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (45:02.222)
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. You know, I mean, I say this all the time, like, because I one of the questions I would get asked most from brides was like, you know, about other brides, they would say, would you get many brides zillas? And I actually don't. I really don't get them. I don't attract them. I'm not high maintenance. I don't get those kind of brides. I would say I'm actually I'm I'd probably go as far to say 99.9 % of my brides are absolutely, even 100 % of my brides are absolutely delightful.

Jenni Spence (45:13.487)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Jenni Spence (45:30.28)
Yeah. Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (45:30.892)
because obviously I'm absolutely delightful.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (45:36.92)
You

Jenni Spence (45:37.788)
Of course Sharon, of course. So you're attracting it in darling. No.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (45:39.758)
I am, but I don't attract them. I don't attract the high drama, they're kind of like, you know, so it is that like attracts like thing, you know, and of course, yeah, those.

Jenni Spence (45:47.786)
But that's so true. And as you do get older, you don't want the bullshit anymore. You don't want the drama. You just want to do wonderful work, go home to your family, and that's it. You know, I don't want drama.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (46:02.446)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So talking about bullshit and drama, was there ever a point for you, and I'm imagining that this might have been through that sort of time in your 30s, 40s, was there an unraveling point for you where it kind of began to fall apart? And what did that ultimately teach you?

Jenni Spence (46:25.61)
I don't know if I want to go that route because the unraveling was due to somebody. And I don't really want to go that route. But that's when I moved over here.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (46:31.862)
Yes.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (46:36.598)
No, that's absolutely fine.

Jenni Spence (46:43.502)
and yeah, began a new life. And that's where, know, mom used to say out of bad comes good. And you may not see it at the time, but it's so, so true. And I say this to so many of my clients that are going through a hard time or anything. They just go, I can't deal with anymore. said, I promise you my sweetheart, just ride this out because I can feel myself getting all emotional.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (46:46.849)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (46:52.322)
Mmm.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (46:56.237)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (47:05.452)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (47:10.038)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jenni Spence (47:11.134)
Just ride it out because it will be better, I promise. And it does get better.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (47:15.35)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah. Do know, I think one of the things that I hear most in conversations with friends and also on this podcast is that that statement, this too shall pass. And I think that's, you know, that's, it's so true. You know, when you're going through these things, these unravelings, when your life starts to kind of

Jenni Spence (47:29.927)
Yes, exactly.

Jenni Spence (47:35.176)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (47:42.092)
not fall apart, but you know, you're kind of trying to struggle to hold it all together. When you're going through that, you don't imagine it's ever going to come to an end, you know? But I think that's, it's always that, isn't it? And, and, and again, another thing I'd literally say almost every single time is like, never when we're going through this stuff, are we sitting there enjoying it and kind of going, what a brilliant learning opportunity this is for me right now.

Jenni Spence (47:51.347)
yeah, absolutely.

Jenni Spence (48:06.067)
Hahaha

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (48:09.038)
I'm so grateful for this pile of shit that yes, yes, it's always always in reflection. Yeah.

Jenni Spence (48:10.9)
Yes, what am I learning from this? No, it's always in reflection. But yeah, but that's what I say to my clients because everybody's going through something. That's what I say to my staff. Try and nurture as much as you can because either you're a nurturer or not, but you can sort of teach it a bit. You'll be all right. Don't worry. Just give them a bit of love.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (48:28.494)
Mmm.

Yes.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (48:34.934)
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jenni Spence (48:40.232)
But yeah, does, it does, it definitely, definitely passes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (48:46.476)
Yes, yeah, yeah, wonderful. So for you, when you look back on all of this, all of these versions of you that has been up to this point, would you say what are the threads that have run through all of your life and all of you are?

Jenni Spence (48:56.339)
Yeah.

Jenni Spence (49:03.85)
How do you mean? I don't understand.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (49:05.314)
Well, like, is there anything that has, when, you know, sometimes like we can't connect the dots. I think it was Steve Jobs said, we can't connect the dots going forward. We can only do it looking back. So when you look back at your life, is there a thread or a theme or is there a struggle or something that has kind of held you up that is, that has continued throughout your life?

Jenni Spence (49:27.934)
I'm not sure how to answer that. Are you saying with me personally that I strengthen myself or a situation that I've come through or... I am... Yeah, I'm just such a fighter. I don't know where this came from because both mom and dad were not fighters. I don't know why I am so... I'll never give up.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (49:35.094)
Yes, yeah, well it can, it may have shown up through all of it.

Jenni Spence (49:53.456)
I've been hit down and then you get up and then down and then up. And I think that's probably it. I'm one of the most resilient. Just when you think you can't take anymore, you know, you can't take any more crap.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (50:04.002)
Yeah.

Jenni Spence (50:08.238)
get up again. may have a day of, you know, people don't see that, do they? They see the smiling face. But we've all got two faces, one for work, and you know that especially, one for work and one for private. And I'm just married to the most wonderful, wonderful human being now, but he's the most wonderful man. But I'd probably say it's just my sheer tenacity and bullheadedness and never taking no for an answer.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (50:09.837)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (50:18.126)
Mm. Yes, yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (50:36.46)
Yeah, yeah.

Jenni Spence (50:37.096)
and just working bloody bloody hard. mean, it's, yeah, that's it. I never give up. Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (50:41.902)
Yeah, I think it kind of goes hand in hand, doesn't it? The tenacity, the resilience, the working hard. I think it's just one of those things that, you know, as you say, it's kind of within you, but then, you know, when you are...

Jenni Spence (50:49.993)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (51:00.822)
You know, it's only when, again, it's when you come out the other side that you don't, you know, kind of go, God, I'm pretty bloody resilient. You know, it's not when you're going through that, again, it's not like you're kind of going, rah, go me, I'm such a warrior woman, you know, you're just thinking, you're mostly thinking, how dare you? How dare you? I'm going to get through this, you know.

Jenni Spence (51:07.347)
Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

Jenni Spence (51:12.97)
Yeah, no. completely. Yeah, no, completely. I will get this, And I mean, when I opened my salon and the sheer, maybe ignorance is bliss because I opened the salon and I had no clients. I didn't know anybody. I had three. That was my mom, my dad, and my son.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (51:31.34)
Yes. No. Yeah.

Jenni Spence (51:36.394)
And sometimes, if that's not ballsy, come on, what is it? But I just love what I do. I absolutely love what I do. But you love what you do as well.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (51:41.048)
Hmm.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (51:48.033)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (51:52.494)
I do love what I do. I've, mean, I've, well, it's interesting because my, my unraveling came probably during COVID when it's obviously the first time we weren't able to actually work. And the, the, the moment it kind of, it kind of hit me that

Jenni Spence (52:05.002)
okay, yes.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (52:14.324)
If I'm not doing this, what else do I do? What else am I good at? And then I realized how much of my self-worth was attached to what I did. And that was a real moment for me. That was a real unraveling moment that, you know, kind of like, what am I without this job? Well, yeah, it was anxiety. there was like, and then this sort of this loss of confidence. And I've never, I've always been fairly kind of like, you know, I'll have a go.

Jenni Spence (52:24.424)
course.

Jenni Spence (52:28.124)
Okay.

Did you have anxiety?

Jenni Spence (52:39.338)
you

Jenni Spence (52:42.994)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (52:43.17)
I'll have a go at something. But yeah, so it all kind of hit me together. I I'm thinking, as I reflect back now, that it was probably a good dollop of perimenopause messing around with my stick and a blender in my brain. But there was also this light switch went off where I didn't love what I did anymore. And I've always loved what I did. So it was literally like, can't wait to do Brides, can't wait Wedding, can't wait, excited all for all of it. And then it went off and I didn't know what to do with that.

Jenni Spence (53:09.2)
wow.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (53:09.922)
because when that all disappears, it's like, man, what do I do now? So that was kind of, I was a bit lost at sea there, but I do think that it has been, I'm probably gonna be a, a six year journey, like coming full circle and exploring other things and you know, going, doing like coaching and workshops and going back to do makeup again and then coming back to doing brides and weddings where you just kind of go, what are the bits that I love? What are the bits that I've always enjoyed?

Jenni Spence (53:18.491)
Hey.

Jenni Spence (53:30.65)
well done, yeah.

Jenni Spence (53:35.794)
Yeah. Yes.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (53:37.954)
you know, these, so it's kind of like going, well, I like that. I'm not so keen on that. I don't want to be booking my life out 18 months in advance anymore. So I don't take on long-term weddings anymore, but I do still love doing hair. So I'll take on a few here and there, you know, absolutely love coaching. I love being able to kind of allow people to see themselves as I see them, you know, when they have that moment where they look at themselves through a different set of eyes and go, my God, I'm amazing. And I love that coaching is able to do that for people.

Jenni Spence (53:43.485)
Okay.

Jenni Spence (53:49.778)
Yes. Yes.

Jenni Spence (54:02.174)
Yes. that's incredible. Yes.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (54:08.115)
So yeah, so it's been so my unraveling, although it was really quite scary and it felt like the ground beneath my feet was moving at the time. It has been the best thing that ever happened because it's allowed me to kind of go and explore the parts of me that I enjoy the most. Yeah. Yeah.

Jenni Spence (54:23.51)
to veer off in another direction, yeah. That's interesting because when COVID happened, they made up all sorts of rules, but I think I was the only salon that never closed because when they brought out, you can only cut, you could only have half an hour, I'm like, yeah, that's because I'm a quick cutter. Just come.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (54:35.272)
yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (54:40.962)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Jenni Spence (54:44.97)
your hair wet and I'll friggin cut you and then you can go next you know so so I never closed I would I would they would come in they would collect their colors that they already had or was all put together for them remember my one of my clients from Canada just cycled in and she stopped at the door and I went there you go you know

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (54:50.766)
See them.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (54:56.896)
yes.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (55:04.558)
Through his eyes, sir.

Jenni Spence (55:09.278)
They made a plan that way, but yes, I mean, if it had closed completely, I don't know what I would have done if we weren't allowed to.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (55:15.168)
Yeah, yeah, it was just completely, I it's the same for many people, you know, it's the first opportunity that we'd ever had to stop and not do what we do. And then if we're not doing that.

Jenni Spence (55:21.704)
Yes. Yes.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (55:24.866)
What else are we outside of that? And I think that was the question that came up for me. Who am I outside of this? Because this was my whole identity, you know, outside. And of course, it comes the same time as, you know, I mean, my kids, I still don't have empty nests. So, you know, there's one of them still hanging around. So, but at that time, they need you less. Your roles are starting to change as a mom, know, your job, you're not doing your job anymore. So it's that kind of moment where you're left there going,

Jenni Spence (55:27.464)
Yes.

Absolutely.

Jenni Spence (55:40.362)
They're still at home.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (55:54.382)
Well, who am I? What's next? What do I do now with this new version of me that's coming in?

Jenni Spence (56:01.322)
I mean, that's so interesting because I never had that opportunity because I just worked. And when you have your own business, like for the last, because I'm doing a new fit out and a new change and everything. So you're there every single day except Sunday, maybe even some Sundays. So it never really stops. And I don't like baking, so I couldn't go into starting up a frigging muffin some, I don't know what to do. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (56:05.738)
Yeah, no. Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (56:15.927)
Yes.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (56:23.63)
Banana braids and all those things that people were doing.

Jenni Spence (56:31.272)
I could open up a South African bakery. I could sell bourrevores rolls or something, I wouldn't know what, because I don't really have any hobbies. I've got interests like I love interior design. love this, this, this, this, but I don't have anything perhaps that I could channel into a work situation, but who knows? Who knows? Time will tell. Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (56:36.513)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (56:52.438)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, and I would say as well for you, I apart from your resilience, I think your humour is something that has probably just threaded through your life. mean, you are, you know, you are obviously hilarious, which is what I get on so well.

Jenni Spence (57:03.85)
I'm being polite here today, right? I grew up with three brothers. I'm one hell of a dirty woman.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (57:12.558)
Yeah. Perfect. Can relate. Although I didn't have three brothers, but you know. But there's that dirty laugh that kind of goes, that's so funny.

Jenni Spence (57:20.2)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but you can relate.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (57:30.638)
So, I, but has that, mean, like, how is that, how has that developed for you as a few, through your humor? Because obviously there is, I mean, I mean, I will find the funny in most things, but I know that sometimes we have to kind of contain some of our things that we laugh at, obviously these days, because we have to be, you know, grownups.

Jenni Spence (57:32.198)
you

Jenni Spence (57:46.281)
Yes, me too.

Yes.

Jenni Spence (57:55.976)
Correct. Correct. Yes.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (57:58.926)
So how do you find that in your work?

Jenni Spence (58:04.154)
sherbert. I think, like one lady said to me, God, I've just realised how much I use my hands when I talk. I'm like this. I'm like a gorilla. She said, I've been watching you. She said, you're like a chameleon. You change according to your client. And I think that's very much it.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (58:11.032)
you

Jenni Spence (58:24.784)
Like I get a vibe from a client and then I'll sort of gauge myself according to that. So I know some clients I can talk to and I can be as dirty as anything and they just love it. We feed off each other, you know, it's so funny. But you can't do that with everybody. mean, especially if it's the first client, they don't know me and my sense of humor. They'll probably get up and friggin run out of there. So I... Where's Morris Mead?

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (58:27.63)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (58:31.181)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (58:39.468)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (58:46.039)
that

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (58:51.726)
You

Jenni Spence (58:54.15)
Smooth.

So yeah, I tend to gauge it according to the client. But most of time, it's frigging, all you hear is laughter. But you've also got to keep the balance because there's some people that think, I don't want them to think we're not taking our job seriously because it is very serious. And so there are moments where I am very, especially if you're doing a big color change or something like that, or if the client's really nervous or, you know, a lot of people are just, they suffer from a bit of anxiety or something.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (58:58.542)
That's so funny. Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (59:05.932)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (59:11.912)
No. Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (59:21.493)
Yeah.

Jenni Spence (59:26.444)
So yeah, I gauge myself according to the client.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (59:29.078)
Yeah, yeah, that's such a good answer. And you know, I think it's such and I would say exactly the same thing. And I think this comes from it's very much a hairdresser thing because we see different people for all different at all different stages, bringing in all different kinds of energy. And we have to adapt. It's probably one of the first things that we learned to do without realizing it at the time that how much we're we have to adapt to people's moods and or experiences, because I always think, you know, you could have a client come in and she's

Jenni Spence (59:44.382)
Yeah.

Jenni Spence (59:48.382)
Yes, yes.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (59:59.246)
And obviously we did have these experiences of a client where she's coming in and she's expecting her first baby and that's very, very exciting. And so you're all happy and excited for her. And then of course the next client comes in and she may have very sadly experienced a miscarriage or something. And so you kind of have to adapt that mood. You have to change that vibe, you know? And I think because in the course of a day, we can do that numerous times, know, energy up, energy down, quieten it down, make it go loud, you know.

Jenni Spence (01:00:06.665)
Yeah.

Jenni Spence (01:00:14.29)
Yes, yes.

Jenni Spence (01:00:18.871)
Of course.

Jenni Spence (01:00:23.666)
Yes. Yes.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:00:27.65)
And I think it's one of those kind of gifts that hairdressers have that we don't necessarily give ourselves credit for. Yeah. Yeah.

Jenni Spence (01:00:33.618)
Acknowledge. Absolutely. But I've got a staff member and she is like, is it the right word, antithesis?

We're just so opposite, but that's why we work so well together because she's incredibly calm. There's, you know, if you want to nurture, it's generally just a pat on the back and that you'll be all right. So she's not really a nurturer. She doesn't really get involved, but she's absolutely brilliant at what she does. So everybody is so different. I mean, I worked with a hairdresser that would go, she had no capabilities of empathy or anything like that. And she'd just go up to the same,

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:00:45.142)
Yes.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:00:55.51)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:01:01.984)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jenni Spence (01:01:12.256)
different client would say the same thing she said so do you want Shampineji today and

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:01:17.004)
Hahaha!

Jenni Spence (01:01:24.838)
So that's all I would hear, day in and day out, you want Shumfin' Edgy. that, you know, so, yeah, I just, nah, that's not for him.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:01:29.623)
Hahaha!

That's so funny.

they? Did they want something edgy? Yeah, yeah, that's brilliant. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So if you could give some advice to other women that are kind of, you know, whether they have been in a situation of having to navigate

Jenni Spence (01:01:41.81)
No, she didn't very really be the same haircut, but she was a sweetheart. was a sweetheart. So, yeah, humour plays a place that's essential. You've got to laugh. You've to laugh.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:02:07.758)
unravelings or navigate like moving countries or any of those things from your own experience what would be your what would be your mantra what would your advice to other women going through stuff?

Jenni Spence (01:02:25.802)
You know, it's ridiculous. It's such a simple question, but it's so hard to answer. I think a big thing is to have girlfriends.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:02:37.431)
Hmm.

Jenni Spence (01:02:37.598)
you know, a good, even if it's just two or three, I haven't got a big circle of girlfriends. My social life is at work. So outside of work, I don't want to go to coffee or I don't want to do that sort of thing. But I think your girlfriend group, one or two or three or how many is so important. You know, a supportive husband, stay away from alcohol. It sells no purpose whatsoever.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:02:45.024)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:02:55.809)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:03:00.206)
you

Jenni Spence (01:03:04.572)
And just laugh as much, you've got to, and be cut.

I know it's so corny, but we put ourselves under so much pressure. Just be kind to yourself. If you want to sit in bed and cry the whole day, do it. Look after yourself, because if you don't look after yourself, you ain't no good to anybody else. And I used to do that because I would just motor on and motor on and motor on until I'd break out in welts and all this stuff. Look after you. Get someone to take the kids away. Go do something for you.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:03:16.206)
Yeah, absolutely.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:03:20.994)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:03:25.59)
No, no.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:03:35.8)
Yeah.

Jenni Spence (01:03:38.892)
That would be the biggest thing. Just take the pressure off yourself.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:03:42.06)
Yeah, I think it's absolute gold. And it's that thing, you know, where people say, put your oxygen mask on first, and you kind of go, yeah, cool, but actually, no, do that. Because, and if we can't do those simple things, like just take a moment just to be kind to yourself, just to be kind in what you think about yourself, what you say about yourself, that's where you that's where it has to start, you know, and as you say, just go well, if it's that kind of thing, where you just got to need to go and lie down, go lie down.

Jenni Spence (01:03:49.375)
Yeah.

Jenni Spence (01:03:56.937)
Yeah.

Jenni Spence (01:04:00.862)
Yeah.

because the world is... Sorry, sorry, you go.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:04:10.572)
Go and just go lie down, you know.

Jenni Spence (01:04:10.78)
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And the world is so much faster now. You you've got all your phones, you've got all of this. you know, just be. Go fricking take a walk along the beach or wade in the, you know, just do something in nature as well. That's so important. I mean, coming from Africa, we love, you know, that's probably one of the only things I really miss is the bush. You know.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:04:16.558)
Mmm.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:04:23.98)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:04:31.116)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:04:37.846)
Yes, yes.

Jenni Spence (01:04:38.83)
our African bush and I love ornithology so you know birding and all of that I just I miss that so much but yeah you always feel that much more grounded if you just got grass beneath your feet you know something swimming in the sea something like that but yeah just if you're feeling overwhelmed just talk to somebody about it or either lock yourself away and cry in the bedroom for as long as you want because the kids will survive.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:04:50.262)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:05:01.165)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:05:04.8)
Yes, yes, they absolutely will. Yeah, and have good friends. your circle. Yeah, yeah, it's such great advice.

Jenni Spence (01:05:07.56)
They will survive. They will. And have good friends. Absolutely. Make a circle and chat with your girlfriends. absolutely.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:05:18.194)
So if you could, my final question is if I put you in a time machine and I was to take you back to teenage Jenny, what would you go back and tell her?

Jenni Spence (01:05:28.33)
god. no.

Jenni Spence (01:05:42.954)
What have you done to me? You silly cow! my goodness!

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:05:45.76)
Jenni Spence (01:05:53.936)
I'd say so much.

I'd say don't be so hard on yourself. Love yourself more. Take time for yourself. You are good enough. There's so many things that I would say just from a self-esteem point of view. Yeah, that's what I would say. Just your...

You're bloody marvellous. That's what I would say. God, I was doing well until you asked that friggin' question. my goodness me. Ay, ay, ay.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:06:28.206)
you are bloody marvelous. You are bloody marvelous.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:06:39.99)
time to reflect on who we've become, do we? And kind of how we got there and, you know, and what the teenage version of us didn't know was coming for her, you know.

Jenni Spence (01:06:45.798)
No.

Jenni Spence (01:06:50.258)
Yeah, yeah, but I think in retrospect that I love who I am now because I've got the balance right. And I think you get to this age and you realise that you have given all you possibly can.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:07:00.247)
Yeah.

Jenni Spence (01:07:07.492)
and what will be will be, but I'm working on me. It's all about me at the moment. It may be a bit selfish, but health-wise and all those sorts of things. And I'm really liking myself and enjoying where I am at the moment. It's a wonderful stage. So whoever says getting into your 60s is rubbish, I watch this space.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:07:24.472)
Yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:07:32.718)
Yeah, I do know I think this is I think this is one of the wonderful things about this time and about who we who we are becoming because there was all this there was this idea of kind of like, you know, you're an old lady, you know, you'd have like, village like retirement villages for the over 55. And you're like, that's like, that's not where I'm going. But it's

Jenni Spence (01:07:39.795)
Yes.

Jenni Spence (01:07:47.313)
god no! No please! Not where I'm going.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:07:53.59)
Yeah, no, but you're absolutely right. think there's this kind of like, there's a real beauty and a freedom in kind of worry, given a whole lot less of a shit about all the other stuff that doesn't matter. Yeah. And just kind of like enjoying who we are now and who we're becoming and just remaining curious and open and kind, you know.

Jenni Spence (01:08:04.675)
a toss about things, absolutely. No.

Jenni Spence (01:08:13.586)
Yes, no, absolutely. Yeah, and kind, absolutely. And that all comes with, like...

I don't regret any of the bad experiences I've had. And a lot of people will say that you can't regret them because you've learned so much from them and it makes you into who you are. It's a bit corny, but yeah, without those experiences, you wouldn't have grown at all. So thank God for them. Ta-da. my God.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:08:33.506)
Yes, yeah.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:08:39.714)
Absolutely.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:08:43.976)
No, yeah, amen. Jenny, it's been an absolute dream chatting to you today. Thank you so much for joining me. I got your good fair. I'm going to get you to stay on. I'm going to press stop in a second, but I'm going to get you to stay on just so that we can have a post chat. But thank you so much for joining me. It's been an absolute pleasure.

Jenni Spence (01:08:53.382)
far out. That last question friggin' killed me.

You got me good. Bloody hell.

Okay, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you for asking me. It's been wonderful. Thank you.

Sharon Wilkes-Burt (01:09:14.84)
Brilliant. Let's just go. Stop recall.

Jenni Spence (01:09:16.778)
you.