MERGER SHE WROTE
Merger She Wrote is a podcast for business owners looking to scale, sell, or transition their companies. Each episode unpacks the strategies behind successful exits, the pitfalls to avoid, and the steps to maximize value. Featuring expert insights and real-world case studies, this podcast helps you navigate the complexities of M&A with confidence. Whether you're planning your next move or just starting to think about the future, Merger She Wrote gives you the knowledge you need to make informed decisions and build a business buyers want.
MERGER SHE WROTE
EP 11 | Business Exit Strategy: What to Expect After the Sale
Why do so many business sales collapse at the last minute? It’s not the money, it’s the emotions.
In this episode, “Seller Whisperer” Denise Logan, both a therapist and attorney, shares the hidden psychological traps that quietly kill deals. From fear-driven reactions like fight, flight, or freeze to the identity crisis that follows a sale, she reveals why selling a business is one of the most emotionally charged transitions an entrepreneur will ever face.
Packed with powerful stories, practical insights, and her unforgettable “marbles in a jar” metaphor, Denise shows how addressing the human side of the deal can save it from falling apart.
Press play to uncover the emotional blind spots that could make or break your business exit.
In the world of business, not all deals are what they seem. Fortunes rise, empires crumble, all with the stroke of a pen Mergers, acquisitions, hostile takeovers. Welcome to Mergers, she Wrote, where we examine strategies and stories behind the biggest deals in business, because in M&A, the real risks are the ones you don't take. Welcome back to Merger, she Wrote. On today's episode, we are going to talk about probably the most difficult aspect of selling a business, which is emotionally getting on board with letting go of something that you've worked all your life to build. I'm Paloma Goggins, your host and owner of Nocturne Illegal, and I am pleased to tell you that I have Denise Logan today as my guest. Denise, thank you so much for being on today. I'm so glad to be with you, paloma, so I want to just jump right in in that you are the self-proclaimed seller whisperer. Tell us more about what that means.
Speaker 2:I might give you a little background about how it came to be. Does that make sense? Yes, that's totally fine. So in my early life I was a therapist and then I was a lawyer, and right now you're wondering why I didn't use those good therapy skills to keep myself from becoming a lawyer. One of the things that I saw was that business transactions were unraveling for all the reasons that were not what was being said. Business owners would ask for more money or focus on a transactional element, and I realized that's not what's going on Under the surface. They're afraid to leave. So I built my law practice. When we reached 50 lawyers and 300 support staff, I exited my own practice, and so I was them in many ways. I took off, got rid of my, my house and bought a motor home that could be a whole conversation of another episode.
Speaker 2:I thought I was going to travel for six months and it turned into almost five years. It's incredible. And so for the last 16 years, I've worked one-on-one with business owners and their advisors to navigate the emotional arc of letting go of their business.
Speaker 1:Do you pull from your personal experience about letting go, or was it for you when you sold your law practice? Was it time for you when you got to that sale? Because I know that for some sellers, especially coming from the legal side, right they're just ready. And so when you advise your clients about letting go, do you pull from some of your own experiences as well?
Speaker 2:For sure my own and the experiences that I've had with clients. So it's interesting because you kind of had a question tied in there was I ready? The truth is that I was ready long before I actually let go, so I knew I was done practicing long and had actually engaged some consultants to help me figure out how to exit, and they were completely focused on the transaction. So several of them said things like you're just burned out, like why don't you buy a sailboat or go on a vacation? And if you really double down and you just do the next five years, you could have something so much bigger. And that felt like a horror to me.
Speaker 2:I think one of the things that I see in transactions a lot is that the professionals are giving great professional advice, but it's almost as if they've forgotten there's a person involved in the process.
Speaker 2:So when the time came for me to exit my business, I was ready, but I probably wasn't ready. So an example is after I left, I remember being on my patio having tea, reading a magazine and thinking, ah, this is what I've been after. And then I started thinking about a client and part of me was like, oh, I should call. Oh wait, that's not mine anymore, and the emotional part that came up for me was oh, I got what I wanted. Oh, no, I got what I wanted. Was that what I wanted? I think I got what I wanted. What I see for business owners is that's often what they are facing, but the people around them, like the people who are around me at that time, would say things like but I thought you wanted to sell and the answer is yes and I think this idea of wanting to sell but not necessarily knowing what it looks like beyond the sale, or this ideology of what it looks like beyond the sale, or this ideology of what it's going to look like.
Speaker 1:And then you get there and it's boring. Or maybe it's not boring, maybe it's the relaxation you've wanted, but you're still, like you said, attached to the ownership of that business. For sure, when working with and I want to wrap this conversation into your book, because I read the book and I thoroughly enjoyed it oh, you're so sweet thanks. When you're working with clients who are in the process of of exiting or even succession planning, you know, are there themes that you see that recur among those clients that you have to work through? Or is every person's journey so unique that it's almost like solving a unique puzzle every time?
Speaker 2:Let's start with the basics. We will all leave our businesses one day, voluntarily or involuntarily, so true. Businesses one day, voluntarily or involuntarily, so true. And often, when I first meet an owner, they will say, well, if I leave my business? And I would say, oh honey, that word is when, not if, because we will all leave our businesses. I think one of the things that I often see is that owners think they will know when that it will just occur to them.
Speaker 2:While we have a transaction that's going on in the sale of a business, there is also a transition that is happening for our owners. In no other part of our life do we go through transition alone. If you think about it, when the last child leaves home, what do we call it? Empty nesting. Empty nesting and we have a phrase for it and we all know what it is, so that when you drop that child off at college and you come home and you're setting the dinner table and you have four plates when you should actually only have three plates, and it feels emotional four plates when you should actually only have three plates and it feels emotional. No one is shaming you, no one is saying but I thought that's what you wanted. Yes, of course you wanted that kid out of your house by then. And that's a transition. Even if we look at something basic like that, we are going through it with other people. So typically, when our children leave home, we go through it with the other parents of our children's friends or our family knows what that is and we recognize it.
Speaker 2:For our business owner, this transition is the single greatest emotional transition that they are going through in their adult professional life, and they're often going through it alone, and some of that is because the professionals around them rightfully so are focused on the transaction. So the attorney is focused on her part, and the CPA is focused on her part, and the investment banker is focused on his part, and everyone is focused on what makes sense. Can I give you the story of an owner that might put that into context? Of course, so we often think about it in terms of older owners, but younger owners face a lot of this too. So we had a younger owner who was exiting his business. He was 36 years old. He was set to earn $16 million on the other side of the sale.
Speaker 2:That's a pretty good chunk for that point in his life and he suddenly realized who am I going to hang out with? All my buddies have jobs. Unfortunately, we had a low EQ investment banker in that transaction who said dude, you can buy friends. I was like, oh no, that was in your outside voice where we could hear it. Our owner was struggling with a loss of something. So often the professionals are focused on the economics of what the owner is getting. So one of the questions I like to ask owners early on in the process is what does work provide for you other than money and financial security? Because guess what? You're not exiting your business unless you're getting money and financial security so we can check that's for sure happening. And financial security, so we can check that's for sure happening. And I'll ask them to list 15 unique things that they are getting from work other than money and financial security. Typically, when I ask that question, they will say well, like what, what else is there? And so want to play a game. Paloma Sure.
Speaker 2:This will be fun and for you, for your listeners, think about this as we go through it. Okay, what else do you get from your work other than money and financial security? What one thing pops in your head?
Speaker 1:Well, I think we have a lot in common um from a background standpoint in that, and I don't know if I've shared this yet on the podcast, but I originally wanted to be a psychologist. More specifically, I wanted to be a professor of psychology with a private practice on the side.
Speaker 2:Wow, that was like the vision.
Speaker 1:Um, I went in college. I went to a lab to fulfill sort of the requirements prior to applying for the PhD program and determined that I despised the laboratory aspects of psychology. I really liked the therapy version of it and I didn't have anyone in my family that was in that realm.
Speaker 1:So no one said well, paloma, you should just go get a PsyD, or you know, an MS, you know, just go and get something that you can do therapy and not the research side of psychology and so I pivoted to law school. One of the things that I love about working with business owners, and specifically in the merger and acquisition space, is that I help people work through their problems when it comes to negotiating and getting them comfortable with the terms of the deal, and so it's very it's not quite the uh, sit down on the couch and have a conversation about your relationships and work through it, but it's still a version of that, and so for me, besides money and stability in terms of what work provides me, I think, is a lot of a sense of fulfillment when I help people kind of demystify the legal world.
Speaker 2:For sure, and some of the things that I often hear from owners are structure. Right Work provides structure to our day to our week to our year. It also provides a place to go Right. During COVID, weren't we all desperate to get out of our houses and PS?
Speaker 1:our spouses were desperate for us to get out of the house too.
Speaker 2:So it's a place to go. It's also things like intellectual stimulation. It's friendship for lots of our owners, their business, their employees, their customers, sometimes even their competitors, are their friends. Then we start getting into some of the deeper things that are harder for us to acknowledge. That work provides for us, like power At work, I say I want something done.
Speaker 2:It generally happens Not so much in my house. The people who live in my house don't always think that they should do what I want. Or often, as business owners, we are the wisdom keepers. We are the ones that people turn to to ask the questions. It's also things like we can be the thrill of the kill, the thrill of the chase.
Speaker 2:I get to close that deal, I close that new acquisition, whatever those things are that our owners are getting, and they're unique to people. But there is some structure to it. Those things don't go away just because we get a big sack of cash, and so often the people around us are focused on the sack of cash, rightfully so. We need to make the transaction happen For our owners. Often, as they are getting close to the end, is when they realize oh, who are my friends? I don't have any Saturday friends, or who's going to pay attention to me, who's going to follow my direction? I'll give you an example of a client that I worked with. We were very close to the end of the transaction and some crazy started stirring up and I said to the deal team oh, that's not from him, that's from home At work. He was a bully, and no judgment about that. It's not how I like to work in my business, but he was often engaged in litigation with former employees or vendors and I think his wife suddenly realized the bully is going to be at home, and so the chaos that started showing up in the transaction was actually because of things right, our partners are involved in this transaction. It's affecting them as well. So once I sorted out what was happening, I got him involved in a boxing program, which, for him, was for his physical fitness and his social needs, because that was going to be a big change. But it also gave him a place to get a need met. It isn't a need that we all need, but it was something he definitely needed. He needed to have a place where he was going to get to pound on people and while at work he wasn't physically pounding on them. He needed to have that release. Once we got that taken care of, all the chaos at home settled down because mama realized oh, the bully's got a place to go.
Speaker 2:So often what I see is that because the professionals in the transaction are only talking about transaction, when something comes up for an owner that is actually an emotional need, they will frame it as a financial need. So another example $85 million transaction. Eight weeks before closing the seller suddenly announced he would not take a penny less than nine times EBITDA, which is great, except his deal was at 6.2. So we had a pretty big delta and he stopped talking to everyone. The investment banker called me and said I think my seller went crazy. I'm like, yeah, sounds like it. Let's see if we can figure out what scared him and what hidey hole he went into.
Speaker 2:So his original plan was to sell the business, buy a sailboat, sail around the globe.
Speaker 2:You can get a pretty good boat for $85 million. So it probably was not really about the money, right? And then I learned that two weeks before he asked for this financial unicorn, his wife had said I'm not doing that. I do not want to be stuck on a boat with you far away from my grandkids Hell, no, this ain't happening. Can we agree? He's not coming back to tell the deal team the deal is off because his wife won't let him do what he wants to do.
Speaker 2:Instead, he asked for something that he knew he couldn't get, so that the deal would fall apart and it would not reflect on him. So once I figured out what was happening there, we created a solution where he would buy the sailboat and sail and every six weeks his wife would take one grandchild fly to where he was. They would do two weeks on land building memories with the grandchild. Then she would fly home and he would sail on Boom. Our deal was back on track, closed on time at its original asking price, because it was never about what it looked like, it was about Interesting. I'm sure you see that in your own practice.
Speaker 1:Definitely. But to your point, I think there are times when none of the team is equipped to handle, when someone has panicked and hit the I quit button. And you know, to your point, I don't think every seller is sophisticated enough about their own emotional intelligence to recognize when they're self-sabotaging or when it is really about something that matters to them. And I try, you know, and I think that your book and the conversations we've had has opened my eyes to ways that I could maybe rely a little bit more on some of the base knowledge I have from going through my undergrad degree and just living life, yeah, Even just in living life, when we pull away from the transaction and we just come back to what might be happening for this person.
Speaker 2:I talk about something that is about dealing with the context rather than the content. Can I get a little of that? You know the argument that you have with your spouse about why you didn't put the mustard on the right shelf in the refrigerator, or whatever your variation is. Right now. Your listeners are probably like oh yeah, I know what that argument is. Can we all agree? It's not about the mustard, ever, ever. But we continue to argue about the mustard and then the underlying issue doesn't get solved.
Speaker 2:So in many ways, that's exactly what's going on for our owners. Something comes up and we start dealing with what they've, almost like the red herring that they have drawn across the trail. And it's not about that. It's about pausing the content. So instead of continuing to talk about, let's say, the negotiation that's happening, to be able to be self-aware on our own part and on behalf of our client, to recognize, oh, she just got scared, let's pause for a minute, deal with what happened, what frightened our client.
Speaker 2:Then, once we address what that is, we can come back to what we're trying to negotiate, but often, I think what happens is sometimes the professionals either aren't equipped with it what to do in that instance or they're just intent on plowing forward anyway. That's what we see, we will hear in this industry that time kills all deals, which is so wrong. What kills deals is unprocessed emotion so often. Do you know the children's game Chutes and Ladders? Yes, so I grew up in Canada where it's called Snakes and Ladders. I don't know who thought that was a better way to call that game.
Speaker 1:It seems scarier to hit a snake than a slide.
Speaker 2:So we might stay with the American version of it. So, if you think about it, you spin the dial or roll the dice and you move your little marker, and you might move it three or four marks and then you hit a ladder and you're thinking, woo-hoo, I'm going to win this game. And then two rolls later you hit a shoot and zoom, you're back down on the board. If you think about, emotionally, what's happening for a child when they're playing that game, they are discouraged, they're disappointed and if we don't address that disappointment and discouragement, they will flip the board. For our owner, the exact same thing is happening. So we know, as deal professionals, that, like they're saying, every deal dies, seven deaths. Right, there is this. We know it's up and down For our owner this is the one and only time that they are going through this. So it is incumbent upon us as professionals just like we would with a child playing this game to help them to realize what's happening, to emotionally resettle so that they can take the next step Instead.
Speaker 2:I think often and I'm just going to point the finger at investment bankers for the moment because of how they are compensated, often they only get paid if the deal closes. So imagine what's happening emotionally for the investment banker when it looks like the deal is about to fall apart. Their fear is up and driving what happens so often. When I'm involved in a transaction I'll say to the banker don't shove your client, shove me, you can shove me. Let's get all that anger out, the fear that you're worried. Your commission is just about to evaporate. Let's deal with that, Because if we don't, what happens is the investment banker then starts shoving the owner. And we all know when someone's shoving me, I don't like it, I'm going to shove back or I'm going to leave the game. That's why when I hear someone say time kills all deals, I'm like, oh, that's the most scared person in the room right now, because they're the person who's afraid if I don't make this happen, it's all going to fall apart.
Speaker 1:I want to go back to something you had said earlier about you know being both having worked in deals like seeing kind of different sides of the coin right and, and being um on the law side, um, you know being kind of the I always call it like the uh, the technician of the the documents right, and so, to your point, when fear becomes all-encompassing, um and it doesn't necessarily break the deal down, but it becomes this wall through which clients cannot they become frozen right.
Speaker 1:One of the things that I see frequently in my practice and perhaps it's the way that I communicate with my clients is they will try and abdicate decision-making to me, and I'm sure you've had that situation even in your position.
Speaker 1:But it's so hard because I understand wholeheartedly where they're coming from in that you know you're the expert, paloma. Go ahead, you tell us what's the right move, what gives us the least amount of liability, how do you think it's best to protect us? And I always have to bring them back down and say I'm going to tell you the pros and cons, but at the end of the day, you have to be the one that makes the decision no different than probably the decisions that you're bringing your clients to ultimately make on their own fruition. But it's a very challenging conversation to have because a lot of times when those clients decide they want to abdicate the decision-making to me and I refuse, they feel that they are not getting the advice or counsel that they signed up for. And it's interesting because I always have to remind them a good lawyer isn't going to make decisions for you and they're not going to tell you right from wrong. They're going to just give you an educational overview, right?
Speaker 1:of everything and allow you to make a very thoughtful decision about what's best for you personally.
Speaker 2:We can't know what someone else's risk.
Speaker 1:Tolerance is no no.
Speaker 2:But I also watch something that happens in a lot of transactions, since we're both trained as lawyers. I call it the parade of horribles that we're going to lay out and this could happen, and this could happen, and this could happen and this could happen, and our client is terrified from that. Often that parade of horribles that I watch lawyers do in a transaction is because the lawyer is so afraid. If I don't point out every single thing and protect you on all of these fronts when something goes wrong, you'll blame me. So in those instances and, as you might imagine, I'm sure you've been in transactions like this where the lawyers are fighting about stuff that isn't actually what our clients are fighting about, we're busy protecting our client and taking on a role that isn't actually what it's meant to be, and so in some of those instances I might work with an attorney to help them figure out what are you afraid of right now and how do we address that. Sometimes it's as simple as having. I had this happen in a situation and where I had the attorneys recognize I'm afraid you're going to blame me if I didn't capture everything. And what if we just have that conversation with our client? Typically our clients are like well, I know you can't know everything that could go right or wrong. What I often see is that an attorney might not want to have that conversation with their client because they want to look invincible. They want to be in the place of I can see all the things and I can protect you. What I see in a lot of situations is that it's just about coming back to the humanity of what is going on in the room, and being vulnerable is a misused word. I think a lot in our society that it's not about emotionally dumping, it's about really being present with what's going on. Can I talk a little bit about fear and how it shows up, kind of the neuropsychobiology of what is going on in our bodies. So I use my hand as a descriptor for it. So fear shows up. You know, let's talk about what goes on in our body. Inside our brain is a part called the amygdala and the amygdala is the fear sensor. It's the oldest part of our brain, also called the lizard brain, and so the lizard is always scanning the environment looking for danger, which is what we were just talking about. But it's a helpful part, but it's also kind of a stupid part because it can't always tell real danger from perceived danger, which is what we're talking about. And so the amygdala, do this with me. Take your hand, wrap your thumb across your palm and bring your fingers over the front. We've made kind of a visual representation of our brain, so the amygdala is safely tucked in. This part over the front of your fingers is called the prefrontal cortex. It's the thinking part of our brain. So play along at home. If you're watching Now, paloma, when you move your thumb inside the fist, what do you notice?
Speaker 2:It's restricted, right, it doesn't really move. Now, if you move your thumb more aggressively, which is what's happening when the amygdala is getting triggered if it moves aggressively enough, you will flip your lid, which we see happening in our transactions. We see it just happening in our life that you're talking to someone and all of a sudden you're like what just happened Literally, the amygdala has flipped our lid. And so all day long in our daily lives, all of us are walking around in variations of fully tucked in to fully wigged out. You know, driving over here, I certainly had an opportunity to flip my lid if I chose to. It's not?
Speaker 1:hard in Phoenix.
Speaker 2:And we just see that in transactions over and over. And you know you can't make any progress if you're talking to someone who I call it all lizard all the time. Right, if the lizard has taken over, we have no prefrontal cortex online, we have no brain power. The only way to bring the prefrontal cortex back online is to calm our bodies. So this is why I'm talking about pausing the content so that we can deal with what happened under the surface and a lot of that. You'll notice this. Your listeners will crack up on this.
Speaker 2:Ever been in a grocery store and there's a parent having an argument with a toddler who's just lost their mind? Right? We've all been there. Who's gonna win that argument? The toddler for sure, wholeheartedly, right. But if mom or dad is able to calm down enough and bring that child close to them, the child will attune to the calm parent and then this will get resolved. But typically what happens is in that moment in the grocery store, the parent is like everyone's looking at me, I'm a bad mom, whatever is spinning in their head, and therefore they're not actually present with their child. One of the things that I try to do in transactions is teach people you have to be emotionally present and attuned for yourself, so that you know how to stop what's happening for you and pay attention to what's happening with someone else Instead. The fear cycle comes up. It takes everything over, and then that's why we get into arguments over stuff that isn't about what it's about.
Speaker 1:What would you recommend for the advisors who are listening, oh, yay To, if maybe not even themselves, right, maybe, part it's. Maybe it's two questions really. Part one is like how does, when you sense this lizard brain taking over and ruining things that you're working on, how do you recognize it and put a stop to it? But also, what is the best way to deal with a client when you start to see the first signs of that is the best way to deal with a client when you start to see the first signs of that.
Speaker 2:So number one you have to know your own signs, because often when we notice someone else getting out of control or getting dysregulated, that triggers our own stuff. So can I give you another piece of this metaphor?
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:So I'm going to use my handy, dandy brain hand again. Fear shows up in one of five ways Fight, flight, freeze, fawn, f-a-w-n and submit. So fight, flight, freeze, fawn, submit. We will all use all five of these, but we typically have a pattern. So you know fight, right, that's the client who's arguing Everything is a big deal, we know. So we've got fight, flight, flight. That's the one who stops returning your calls. They've ghosted you Freeze, freeze in a business setting. So we know it.
Speaker 2:Just generally, is that deer in the headlights look? Or in a transactional setting, it can look like over-processing. You've got to think it through a gazillion times. Over-talk it Fawn, is people pleasing. It's yep, yep, I'll totally get you those documents. Yep, I will. And no, they don't. And then submit. If you have ever had a teenager in your house or you've been a teenager, you know submit, fine, have it your way, fine, whatever. So we have a pattern that we use In answering the question that you asked me, which is what do we want advisors to do? Know your own pattern, so I'll tell you mine and then I'll see if we can figure out yours. Know your own pattern, so I'll tell you mine and then I'll see if we can figure out yours. So mine is breeze fawn flight, and if I can't get away, then I will submit fight as my very last one, although if you were to ask, often when I ask couples this, the husband will say that their wife is fight.
Speaker 2:And I'm like if fight doesn't work, what do they do?
Speaker 1:Fight.
Speaker 2:I'm like that's probably not accurate, but that's what you're perceiving. So mine is freeze fawn flight. If I know that about myself, I can watch when I start to people, please, if I don't calm myself there, I'm about to escape. Knowing that about myself allows me to watch for my own pattern, because, guess what? My pattern triggers someone else's pattern. It's very easy for an advisor to be like well, I'm going to control my client. Most important part, control yourself and know how you are contributing into the dynamic, Just like when we go back to an investment banker. Investment banker is scared. The deal is falling apart. You can bet they're using one of these that is also triggering their client. So what do you think your pattern is?
Speaker 1:You know, Boy, I would say I would say definitely, freeze is probably probably up there for me. I would say fight is also probably in last position for me. But that it's funny. I hate litigation. So it makes sense that I'm just not. I'm kind of conflict avoidant in that perspective. I'm not afraid of conflict per se, but like I definitely think it is not my default mode of operation. Um and so I think the freeze you said Fawn was kind of like let me make this a okay.
Speaker 1:I think that's's probably something I think I'm probably very similar to. You might be, um, I, I think, inherently being in a, in a lawyer position where I want to help my clients and help them feel better, I think that my nature lends to how do I, how do I make this work or how do I fix it for you, right, right and knowing what our pattern is, then I'm going to be able to A calm myself.
Speaker 2:But this is work I do with any transaction I'm in. I want my clients to know this. I want all of the advisors for my client, I want opposing counsel to know this because then we can pause, get myself regulated. So I'm not the parent in the grocery store having a shouting down match with my toddler because I'm the person who's out of control. I think it's often hard for advisors to recognize that they are contributing to the dynamic. Oh, 100%. But it happens a ton. I see it happen in opposing counsel on a transaction. Often I see it happening with the investment banker or even the buyer-seller situation, so true. So in that instance if I recognize oh, either I'm feeling emotionally revved up or I watch it happen to my client.
Speaker 2:The tendency we all have is to like well, let's just get it over with. Like, let's just go keep talking about what we're talking about. No, sometimes we need to just pause and figure out what happened, because when we come back to a place of emotional safety in the conversation then we can actually progress. Otherwise we're just like jamming forward. I don't know if you've ever had a client. I don't know if you do any estate planning work, but we think about estate planning attorneys who they draft beautiful wills and trusts and then the client never signs them, and I hear that a ton from them. And the reason is because, guess what, we haven't dealt with the emotional upset under there. It's one thing to make a beautiful estate plan, it's another to deal with the fact that. Are we acknowledging the death fear that's happening?
Speaker 1:Well, and to your point earlier, the uh dynamic between council or even just fellow advisors working on opposing teams. Um, I used to work in a law firm setting before I had my own practice where I would get. I worked with a partner that had clients that, similarly, they had a penchant for being sort of mean.
Speaker 1:I don't know if it was just like, attracted like, but I just I would despise getting handed these clients because they just weren't my people and and so I still had to work with them, inherently because the partner was handing me work, and so I started this game and it ended up and actually I, inherently, I was doing a lot of what you were saying, which is, instead of allowing them to be mean and it trigger me in this process, um, I would kill them with kindness, so we'd get on our first call together and I would really just try and reestablish a new form of relationship with them, and in most cases, I was able to get them to drop their guard and to come back to the table to work together in a manner that met me kind of where I wanted to be in terms of mutual respect, where I wanted to be in terms of mutual respect, and so, taking kind of that and realizing, you know, pulling from you what you had said about this idea of like, okay, regulate yourself and then work to essentially meet other people that you're working with, kind of where they're at, to calm them as well, I mean, it takes a lot of patience and also knowledge about yourself and the ability to say, okay, this isn't personal.
Speaker 2:And also recognizing so someone who's being a jerk. They're probably in fight mode and instead of thinking, why are you being a jerk, why are you fighting me? If we're able to flip that switch internally and say, oh, why are you so scared? We would not say to a child stop being. Well, sometimes we do. We're all parents, we all do get through that place, but the answer is, oh, what scared you? Then we can address what that is.
Speaker 2:But in order to do that, I have to be able to regulate myself and I have to recognize what is happening on the part of the other person is a reaction to something that has happened, and it may be something that we can identify happened or it may be something. So remember our friend, the amygdala. It's kind of a little dummy, but we might be in a meeting room and someone makes a face that the amygdala spots as the same look that our father would make right before all hell broke loose. Guess what that's going to trigger some stuff. We've all had that situation. You're having a conversation and then you're just like what just happened? The person may not even actually know what happened, but if we just plow over it like, oh, I don't want to address what that is. I don't want to know what that is. Just keep going, we don't make progress. I want one more crazy part of this, of what's going on in our brains, sure. So I'm going to talk about attachment theory and how this fits in and why it's such a scary part for our owners.
Speaker 2:As babies, we are wired to attach. We attach or we die. So there are three ways that attachment shows up. There's no right or wrong, better or worse. There are just three different ways. So if you think about three dots in a row on the paper the center dot we're going to call the anchor, like a boat anchor can kind of ride the waves. On the left side we're going to call that the island attachment, like a desert island. And on the right side we're going to call that dot the wave like a wave at the beach. Right side we're going to call that dot the wave like a wave at the beach. So if you think and these develop in childhood, but there's a relevant point here so an anchor attachment is someone who can tolerate a little more upset than anyone else without getting too shook An island attachment for an island. Whenever there is upset or uncertainty, they retreat. They go to their desert island, they pull up the drawbridge, they dig a big moat, put some crocodiles in it and they are gone For a wave attachment. When things are uncertain or there is upset, they rush in. So they will do things like are we good, are we good, are we okay, are we good?
Speaker 2:When you think about this attachment spectrum, if attachment develops so early, if we are detached, it is a primal fear. We are asking people to leave their businesses. We are asking people to leave their businesses something to which they have been long attached. It is going to trip this up. So for me, on this attachment spectrum, like I said, no better or worse, but I am a tsunami. I'm an extreme wave highly attuned to upset or chaos, and so I have to know that about myself, because otherwise I am inclined to rush in and try to make things right. If I'm engaged in a process with someone who is an island, guess what they do? They move their island further out into the ocean. So for many professionals in a transaction, they tend to be on the wave side, they tend to rush in. That's what we see with the investment banker. Oh no, my deal is going and they are chasing, depending on where our client is. We have to know who we are and how to create safety for ourselves so we don't trigger it in other people.
Speaker 2:Because our owner is naturally feeling some of this attachment issue because they are about to separate from something and this business has served lots of purposes for them. I was in a process with father was transitioning the business to two of his sons and it was not going very smoothly. And the son said dad, when are you going to retire and start traveling with mom? And he stormed out of the room and I said does your dad like to travel? And they said no, he's a crazy homebody. I was like do you see what you just did? The business has been providing for him a justifiable excuse to not have to do something that he doesn't actually want to do. What is he going to do? Turn the business over to you guys and then say to your mom I hate traveling with you, I can't stand longer than three consecutive hours with you. No, our owners are acting out these emotional dynamics and sometimes we can get at what they are and sometimes not.
Speaker 1:From your experience, when people are having this identity crisis right Because we've talked about people selling their business what was the status quo? What gave them more than just stability and financial gain is now gone, the routine is gone. Maybe the friendships are missing. How do you see or even potentially work with people post-closing to help them reestablish a new identity when it is so much tied to their own business? For sure.
Speaker 2:So that first question that I started with what does work provide for you? We want to really get granular with them about what that is so that they can start to get those needs met, hopefully before they exit the business, if not afterwards. So you know this in your own practice, paloma, there's where we come in and where we should come in, and those are often unrelated. Yes, I often come into a transaction because things have unraveled and someone remembers. Remember that lady we met. Maybe she can pull the cookies out of the fire. I like it better when I'm in early, because then I'm just part of the process. When I come in later it's a more nuanced introduction. But generally the process is you know, selling your business is a tumultuous process and everyone is going to be focused on the transaction. Let's make sure there's someone who's focused on the transition. Let's make sure there's someone who's focused on the transition with you.
Speaker 2:And that's the role that I generally serve in that process is helping to stay attuned to the transition that's happening while everyone else is doing the transaction, and I often stay on with owners for a period of time after their sale because they're in a whole new land on the other side. Who?
Speaker 1:am.
Speaker 2:I, you know, everywhere we go, we are asked this ridiculous question. So what do you do? I hate that question because I personally think it is a social pegging question. The answer tells me whether I should be kissing up to you or you should be kissing up to me right now, and our owners are keenly aware that they may not have an acceptable answer to that question when they sell their business.
Speaker 1:That's interesting, that that is from my perspective.
Speaker 1:When someone has owned a successful business and sold it for millions of dollars, whether that's 1 million or 60 million the fact that someone could have that thought to me is just.
Speaker 1:I think it's incredible that someone could feel less than post-sale, because from my perspective, they have in many ways achieved the pinnacle of success, which is grown a business so successful that they had the pleasure of exiting it for some amount. And so, post-sale, I run into people on the golf course all the time who are post-sale and you know they kind of it's like oh I, you know I used to own logistics and company. You know, and you know we sold it. And then it's funny because a lot of times I'll turn to them and say that's awesome, I do merger and acquisition work. Tell me about the deal, tell me about the business, and you can see them light up. But it's this I never had thought about it until you just said it now that there's this lack of importance placed on your role post-closing and all I could think of is like you're, you're the guy who had you know the one hit wonder, made a you know bunch of money on it.
Speaker 2:You should be proud of what you did, but notice that the answer to that question comes to what I used to do yeah, so what we're doing, in the way we answer that question, is we're demonstrating why I deserve to be here, why I am entitled to take up space, and that's not. I don't ask that question of people and in fact I was getting my hair done a couple of weeks ago and the gal three chairs down was like so what do you do? And I said about what? She said no well, what do you do for a living? I was like you want to know how I make my money, because, think about it, that is a pegging question. And her response was well, I just want to relate to you. I said aren't there about eight gazillion other questions we could ask to relate to each other other than how do you earn your money, which is what the underlying premise of that is, which is also like I say this more with my male clients than my female clients. So there might be something there. I haven't done the research on it, but it's the often men feel like I have to demonstrate that, like I am doing something, I deserve to be here, to take up the space, to be in this place, and so I encourage clients early on to start developing another answer to that question. And you'll even notice I have a client who, like he picked up the guitar because he found it in his daughter's room when she moved out. He was like dang, we paid some money for this thing, someone better use it. So I encouraged him to use I play guitar as the answer. What do you think?
Speaker 2:The follow-on question is that someone asks In a band Right, well, would I know your band? Again, this is like are you trying to relate to me or is this pegging? It's a very interesting question that is so woven into our society. Our owners are unconsciously aware of these things as they are approaching the sale, but there isn't anyone to talk to about this. For the exact same reason, this conversation we're having you're like well, but I see you as a successful business owner.
Speaker 2:Yes, and the reason you would know that is because they would talk about what they used to do. So there's a huge part of our identity that often is woven in. So when I was on my motor home adventure, when I left my business, I did not tell anyone that I had been a lawyer home adventure when I left my business. I did not tell anyone that I had been a lawyer, and I would say what do you think I did? And I would let people just speak into the gulf. What did they think I did? There was a lot of sculptor, and a lot of people seem to think I owned a children's bookstore, which I thought was quite amusing to me.
Speaker 1:I think it's interesting that people would take a guess based off of perception alone of what you looked like. Perhaps I think that's really fascinating. Back, I wanted to before we get too far afield from the pegging piece of that where you're saying it's social hierarchy, right. Interestingly enough, you're mentioning male versus female dynamics.
Speaker 1:I cannot tell you how many times when I'm out with my husband and we'll have had a conversation going with another couple or a fellow male golfer since we're on the golf course quite a bit and someone will turn to my husband and say what do you do for a living? And it never crosses their mind to ask me and I've had women do this as well and I think it's just part of the um, just societal norm. But I I think it's so funny because I had pointed this out to my husband that you know you're always the first one to be asked what you do for a living and it is always a question that gets asked. You're right, and it's omnipresent in every conversation that we have and my husband, gleefully, will tell them first what I do for a living. Now, as his rebuke to the societal norm of like, I'm not going to answer what I do, I'm going to answer for her first.
Speaker 2:What if you answered that question, something wholly unrelated to how you earn your money? And see like that is a jarring answer.
Speaker 1:You had that response to the lady that you were telling me about.
Speaker 2:And I was thinking to myself.
Speaker 1:I originally liked our dynamic of like when my husband gets asked what he does, first that he answers for me, because it's like why haven't you asked her? Right, you've been talking to her for the last 20 minutes, but now that you said about what the whole premise of just not participating in that question at all, I think is even better.
Speaker 2:Shifting the conversation, and it's a piece that I often encourage owners to do in advance of the sale so that they are already dealing with it. I mean anyone who's listening. If you've been a stay-at-home mom or you know someone who is, they can tell you that that is a complete conversation killer. You're in a room. People are like what do you do? What do you do? What do you do? They come to you and you're like you know, I'm a homemaker, I stay home with the kids. People are like so next person to talk to. And that can be super shaming in a lot of ways, and women often will talk about that dynamic In some way unconsciously. Our clients are aware of it. So my training as a therapist is in two tracks. One is work and financial disorders. So people who are addicted to work and money. You never see that in this world at all right.
Speaker 2:And the other track is called thanatology, which is the study of death and dying. And if you think about it, for our owners, as they are approaching the end of their business, it can feel like a death. It is certainly an ending and as a culture we don't actually do endings very well. Think about the end of a relationship, the end of a friendship, the end of a job. There is this abrupt, weird cutting off and it actually is a transition that is happening. So I watch owners as they get close to the end of their business, whether that's their choice or not. They often flip around and rush back toward the work and money piece, because that's what we talk about in our culture instead of what is this ending? And we can think about other transitions that we go through and, just like, draw on this.
Speaker 2:I'm sure you've moved houses before. Why are transitions so hard? Well, part of why they're hard is because we don't deal with them. But even when they're positive, they're hard. Yes, but think about this so you're building a new house and you're happy that you're leaving your old house, but then, when you're packing things up, you realize, oh, that's the tree I planted in the backyard when my daughter was born. I can't take that with me. And, yes, you are excited to go to the new house and it's a yes, and Both things are happening. But if you say to your best friend, well, I'm not going to be able to take the tree, they're like what? Of course you're not taking the tree, Like, plant another tree, but we're not acknowledging like I am getting something I want and I will miss my connection to this other thing.
Speaker 2:Or you move into the new house and you're thrilled oh my gosh, I got this new house. It's so great, and you don't know where the silverware goes and your favorite Thai restaurant is just a little too far to keep driving to and we feel loss around that. And because we don't talk about it and normalize it in our culture, those losses go unacknowledged and people feel ashamed that they are happening or they are dismissed by others when they raise them. These are the reason I use small examples from our life is because we can all relate to it. We've all moved house, we've all had those experiences and we know them, and we also know the shame of speaking them out loud instead of normalizing. Of course you're happy about your house and you miss your Thai restaurant and the grocery store is weird because it's not laid out, the same as the old one.
Speaker 2:So for owners, they exit their business and then one day they find themselves sitting in the parking lot at their business when they were actually trying to go to the gym and they feel weird about it and they feel ashamed. And if they tell someone they're like, why did you end up at work? Because for 31 years that's where we drove, that's where I drove and that's where I was. Yeah, and so this process of preparing for the exit and tending to the change that happens on the other side, I will often hear often it's investment bankers or wealth managers will say so what are you going to do when you exit your business?
Speaker 2:What's your plan? And the answer is usually golf, travel and grandkids, like those three things, Friends, that's not a plan. That sounds great, though, and it does sound great. I'll tell you. There's a client of mine in Miami. He exited his business in his late 30s and he was a surfer. Like that was his thing that he liked to do, and after he exited, he and I worked together for several months and he was like, why can't I make myself go to the beach. I can't even go to the beach anymore.
Speaker 2:This was post-sale Mm-hmm, and I said that makes perfect sense to me because the thing you used to use as an escape you're not escaping anymore so often, those things that we look forward to, like golf, like travel. My point to folks often is and that will only fill a certain amount, you have to look at what else your life will be filled with and it can feel scary and often that fear of I don't know the answer to it might keep them from exploring an exit or it might keep them from tipping over into the exit. They will often pull back. I think you and I were circling around a transaction with a related person of ours and the owner was quite elderly and continuing to act as if he can and will run that business for a long time.
Speaker 2:We all around this know that's not what's going to happen. Unfortunately, right, he wasn't willing to lock onto this process to really deal with what the fear was, and so he's continuing to own a business that eventually maybe his widow will sell, and that, to me, is a tragedy. I think the other thing owners who exit and are not prepared or don't have support on the other side they struggle and we should do better in this industry as professionals, we are changing their lives. We know we're changing their lives. I think we often don't recognize all the ways we are changing their lives, often don't recognize all the ways we are changing their lives. For an owner, this is the most vexing chapter in the life of their business.
Speaker 1:I think that point is a great segue because I read Denise's book the Seller's Journey. I'm like Oprah now, like the Seller's Journey on camera If you're listening to this on audio you won't be able to see me but the seller's journey how smart sellers navigate the obstacles to exiting their business and I was pleasantly surprised that it is a story and not a traditional self-help book or a business book where it's just spitting, you know, examples and things and to-do lists and things for you to change about your day. But this idea that you were talking about and I want there's another part of this that I want to talk about too. I actually think there's a part of this book that will speak to a lot of people who are currently owning and operating their business pre-sale, and it resonated with me which I'm not even thinking at all about what my business might look like in the future, and so I think it would be great for Denise to read from the book for just a second.
Speaker 1:But first I want to talk about the fact that you mentioned this idea that a lot of advisors are drastically changing our clients' lives in part of this process. You know it's a process they want and want our help on, and something that you kind of weave into this story in your book, is this idea of at some point the deal closes and the seller is no longer speaking with a lot of their advisors on a daily basis, and then it can be quite lonely and jarring because they were your kind of friends, right, and it's interesting because I don't think many clients think about it from the opposite end, which is that a lot of advisors feel probably the same way I know I do, you know, in the deals where I've worked for 30 plus days alongside my client, fighting for their wants and needs and and really keeping in touch on a daily basis, and then the deal closes and we no longer speak. It it's strange and separation anxiety it is what happens.
Speaker 2:Right, we are. Many advisors are wooing their clients in the lead up like dinners and golf. And we're wooing them. Clients in the lead up, like dinners and golf. And da da da, we're wooing them and then we're deep in the process, multiple calls a day. There's all of this intensity and then the deal closes and the advisors are on to something else and the owner often feels dropped.
Speaker 2:I'll say there is a psychological parallel to it. We watch our children do that. When they are preparing to leave, they get close. Anyone who's got teenagers who are getting ready for college it's called spoiling the nest, basically. They make such a wreck and they are so rude and awful to be around that when you drop them off at college you're like good, I'm never coming home. Good, because I don't want you to come home. Get out of the car and then you come home and you miss them and they miss you.
Speaker 2:The psychological impact of that is that we know separation will be hard and we unconsciously set up I'm at you, so it's easier for me to leave.
Speaker 2:You might see it in instances where clients are fighting about fees as we get close to the closing, or investment bankers. See it where they're like oh, I can't believe you're getting all that money from the sale of my business and what's happening is the owner is beginning to emotionally separate because they realize I'm not going to be having all this contact with you and I miss it. I think we can do better as professionals in a transaction to ease that and not simply thanks for the check, see you later I'm on to something else but to really acknowledge that this person needs an off-ramp into what that life looks like and not just calling them because you want a referral, but calling them because they are humans who are going through dramatic change. It's why I use examples like our kids, because we know we're like yeah, dropped you off at college, see you at Thanksgiving. No, we're going to have an ongoing conversation with them. Because we know we're like yeah, dropped you off at college, see you at thanksgiving. No, we're gonna have an ongoing conversation with them.
Speaker 1:Because we know we miss them, they miss us, and it helps them settle safely into the next chapter of their life what I was going to say to the idea of not necessarily I like the idea of the off ramp, but also this idea that what prevents us from staying in touch with people on a on a more personal level? Right, um, and I think, unfortunately, coming from the, the lawyer's perspective, I think a lot of people view our relationship as so much transactional because it is paid hourly most of the time that it's hard for people to envision a world in which you call to just catch up.
Speaker 2:It's part of why I wrote the book the way I did. It's written as a business fable, so it's the story of an owner one year after he exits his business, and he goes on a trip across Glacier National Park with his banker, his lawyer, his wealth manager and the buyer of his company. And right now your listeners are thinking this is a murder mystery, because it certainly sounds like it.
Speaker 1:It would fit well with our play on Murder.
Speaker 2:She Wrote, but the point is what, if you choose the advisors that you could envision having that kind of relationship with Because I do think it matters who you choose to take this journey with and are they attuned to what's happening for you as an owner in this transition it will happen much more smoothly and there will be a safer landing on the other side when you choose people who actually are dialed in to what's happening. Transactional prowess is the bare minimum right. That is a given. Everything above and beyond that makes a difference on how you land on the other side.
Speaker 1:Well, I think this is a great after your introduction of what your book is. This is a great after your introduction of what your book is. I think this is a great way to conclude our podcast by having you read an excerpt from the section in the book that I think is most applicable to I mean, it's applicable to everyone in this position but also this idea of kind of there's a theme woven into your book that underlies the current of being present in life even as you're growing and building your business, which is a constant struggle for all of us business owners that find themselves prioritizing emails at 1030 instead of time with your kids or your spouse. So, without further ado, I am going toise read uh from this section that I've highlighted for her so she knows what I want, and then nothing could be better than being asked to read your own book.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you, it's lovely highlight to highlight.
Speaker 1:Please sorry, the grunting on there is from us reaching across the table. Apologies for the sound effects.
Speaker 2:Oh, I see. Diane said she wanted to try something with the whole group. Are you game? Some people shrugged, others said sure their curiosity had been piqued. She untied the gold-colored string at the top of the little red velvet bag and, handing it to Rob on her left, she said I want you each to choose a marble. There's plenty in the bag and they're all different. Choose the one that calls to you. She saw Marty reach into his pocket and pull out his big steely shooter that she had given him once before. Huh, she thought he even brought it here with him on this trip.
Speaker 2:Diane then told the story of how, when she was a child, her grandfather had a big jar of marbles in his workshop. She and her siblings and cousins had always tried to get their hands on those marbles and he would tell them keep your grubby little paws off, those, they're mine. She had loved the smell of the sawdust and varnishes that he worked with in his workshop and often sat perched on a high stool watching him work while she chattered away about nothing. Each Saturday that she was there, she would watch him close up the can of stain or varnish, wipe it with a cloth and put it away. Then he would turn off the little transistor radio and reach into the jar to pull out one single marble before he turned off the light, locked the door and held her hand as she skipped along beside him up the walkway to the house. Once inside he would kiss her grandmother, who was always making something delicious. Then he would go into the bedroom and close the door. Soon after Diane would hear the clink of the marble as he dropped it into a matching jar on her grandparents' dresser. He would come out of the bedroom, wash his hands at the kitchen sink and then sit down to supper.
Speaker 2:Apparently, when he had been in his 50s, a life insurance salesman had come calling and shown him a life expectancy chart. Her grandfather was surprised to see that, according to the chart, he had so few years left. He bought the life insurance. But he also bought two jars and filled one with the same number of marbles that the chart showed he had weeks left in those remaining years.
Speaker 2:Each Saturday he chose a marble from the jar, reflected on how he had spent that week and thought about how he would choose to spend the next week as he transferred each marble, one week at a time, from the jar where he worked to the one in the bedroom he shared with Diane's grandmother. He had created a visual reminder of what mattered and how to make his choices. Diane finished the story by saying there were still marbles left in the jar in the workshop when he died. The room was quiet, although she could see them each looking at their marble or rolling it around between their fingers. Marble or rolling it around between their fingers Quietly. She asked what choices will you make each time you reach into your pocket and feel this marble resting among the other trappings of life that call for your attention?
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for reading that. I thought that that section was just so powerful, and if you pick up this book, there are plenty more nuggets like that hidden within, and I cannot thank you enough for being on this podcast.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much for having me. It was such a delight to spend this time with you today. Likewise.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for listening today. Please like, comment or share, and always welcome your feedback. In the world of business, not all deals are what they seem. Fortunes rise, empires crumble, all with the stroke of a pen Mergers, acquisitions, hostile takeovers Welcome to Mergers, she Wrote, where we examine strategies and stories behind the biggest deals in business. Because in M&A, the real risks are the ones you don't take.