Business Unscripted - Triumph Business Solutions
Welcome to Business Unscripted, the podcast where real business conversations happen. Hosted by Dave Worden, founder of Triumph Business Solutions, this podcast dives into the raw, unfiltered realities of running and growing a business. Each episode explores the struggles, strategies, and accountability moments that shape the journey of entrepreneurs and business owners.
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Business Unscripted - Triumph Business Solutions
When Your Gut Says Run, Don't Walk to the Exit
Have you ever found yourself stressing over things completely beyond your control? In this heart-to-heart conversation, Dave and Duarne tackle one of the most powerful mindset shifts any business owner can make: focusing solely on what you can influence while letting go of everything else.
Dave kicks things off by sharing his recent moving frustrations with mortgage companies and title delays, using this personal experience to highlight how wasted energy on uncontrollable circumstances steals opportunities from your business. The hosts explore how this principle applies to everything from client decisions to market conditions, offering practical strategies for redirecting your focus to productive actions that actually move the needle forward.
The episode takes a dramatic turn when Dwarren opens up about a challenging client situation in his virtual assistant business. His candid story serves as a powerful cautionary tale about the importance of trusting your instincts, maintaining clear boundaries, and having proper agreements in place. Through his experience, listeners gain valuable insights into managing client expectations, protecting team members, and recognizing when to walk away from problematic business relationships.
Both hosts share their philosophy on celebrating small wins as a pathway to larger success. They discuss practical methods for acknowledging daily achievements, creating momentum through consistent actions, and building confidence through incremental progress rather than focusing exclusively on distant major goals. This approach proves particularly valuable during challenging periods when progress might seem painfully slow.
The conversation also addresses the often-overlooked legal risks of hiring overseas workers, with Dwarren sharing eye-opening cases of businesses facing severe financial penalties for misclassifying employees or failing to understand cross-border employment regulations. These real-world examples serve as crucial reminders about the importance of informed decision-making when expanding your team internationally.
Whether you're just starting your entrepreneurial journey or looking to refine your established business, this episode delivers actionable wisdom on focusing your efforts where they matter most, protecting your business through proper agreements, and building sustainable success through calculated risk-taking and celebrating progress along the way.
Hey, hey, hey, good morning, good morning, good morning everyone. Hope you're having a fantastic July 4th. It's Dave and Dwarren here with another episode of the Business Unscripted podcast, where we give you real raw stories from our journey through business to hopefully help you become a little bit better with your business and hopefully you can learn from our mistakes, our trials and tribulations and we'll give you some strategies for you as well. So, dwarren, good morning sir. How are things in your world?
Duarne:Things are great, been a wonderful week, lots of time with family for the weekend upcoming and, yeah, I'm quite happy with how my week's come along. How about yourself?
Dave:uh, it has been a busy week. Right now I'm actually uh traveling again for, uh, my son's baseball tournament, so we are in a hotel. So I do apologize. I'm on at the mercy of the hotel internet so if, if anything pauses or if we freeze, it's, it's on me. So I apologize for that, but so, but it's been good.
Dave:We went through a move, so it's busy week. Last week, as you guys know, I was in the middle of moving, as I mentioned last week, got that kind of finalized, ready to move forward, had some frustrations when it comes to, uh, you know, mortgage companies and things like that where we're still waiting for like a payoff. Uh, we got a payoff but then the company did it for like one day, like the payoff was good for one day and so now we're waiting for another one. So there's there's some title company delays and and you know it's not anything that people can control, and I think that's kind of a good first lesson that you know I wanted to kind of reference, and I know there is some stuff we were talking pre-show for your software.
Dave:But, like you know, so many times people can get caught up, caught up stressing over things that you have zero control and I find myself to do this sometimes. But a situation like the title company and the mortgage company sending a payoff I can't control that. So why would I stress over that? Why would I waste that energy to stress over that? It's going to happen when it's going to happen. I can't affect it one way or another.
Dave:Or same thing with, like people's decisions like you can't stress out for you know a client or a prospect who you know needs your solution but decides not to do it, like that's something out of your control. All you can do is really put that information in front of them, hopefully, you know, kind of get them to walk through the scenario and see this situation. But in the end of the day, like if you stress and you spend all your time stressing over like their decision, you know you're not going to be able to move forward yourself, you're going to miss some opportunities and other plus you'll end up like me, right, you end up off, you'll pull all your hair out by stressing other plus.
Duarne:You'll end up like me, right, you'll end up off, you'll pull all your hair out by stressing, so that says, that's the real reason you're bald, then is that? Is that what we're hearing here?
Dave:I think so yeah, I think it's stress.
Duarne:It's supposed to be stress-related hair loss, so no, but I mean because you've got a big beard seal going on, so you can't be too stressed right, it's just gray from having to deal with my kids, right, that's right, um, but no, I I think it's.
Dave:it's something to learn and to focus on. Like, if you find yourself, uh, truly stressing over the things that you have zero control over in your life, you You're missing out on many opportunities, you're missing out on some ways that you can move forward. So focus on the things that are in your control. So, in terms of your client conversations, look at what you did in that conversation, right? Was it the questions that you asked? Was it maybe the way you prepared the offer? Is it something there that is in your control? So, only focus on the things in your life that you control. Everything else is going to happen, the way that it's going to happen, and then look internally and look for ways to make improvements, look for ways that you can be better for yourself, but don't waste your time stressing on things that are out of your control.
Duarne:That's a really good point and you're right. The amount of times that you'll sit there and retrospectively check what did I say during that conversation, when you've had a sales conversation with someone or that first meeting and then feel like, oh, I should have said this, I should have said that or maybe I should have done this, there's no point beating it up, beating yourself up on that sort of stuff. You can always come back and do that later, present that next. There's always going to be another time, or if you want to make it that way, um, but you're right. And when you're waiting for things like banks, government.
Duarne:We just went through this whole episode where the craziest things were happening when we were trying to get our SEC registration for our nonprofit here in the Philippines set up and my partners and I the other board of trustee members were trying to process it all ourselves keep the budget friendly application and we got to the point we had a online submission portion where we submitted notarized documentation and only to find out and we got to the next step that we had actually printed on legal length paper, which makes sense, it's a legal document, right?
Duarne:And we went to submit it in person the original notarized copy to get told that unfortunately, the notarized copy we had was meant to be on A4 paper, so we had to go and get them reprinted, re-notarized, brought them back in. Then we got told, oh no, the copy that was uploaded needs to be the matching notary seal and numbers. I'm like, well, okay, so we go back to your lawyer and talk to them and see what they can do. So we go back to the lawyer, give them back the original copies, get an extra set of copies made in A4, documented, stamped with the right numbers that match the original, and then take it back.
Duarne:So I mean that whole process took way, way longer than we would have liked the whole process to be and that was one of the hurdles one of the hurdles along the way and, honestly, we sat there, we got a little bit stressed out about it, but then we, you know, we just sat and looked at each other and, as a group, collectively said well, you know what. It's just how. It've just got to deal with it. Let's just get it done. There's a challenge presented for a reason. We'll just meet the challenge and move on. Great things will happen.
Dave:I think you can find new opportunities. When you focus on yourself, when you're stressing or you're worrying about the things that you can't control, you know you miss the opportunity to move forward, right, like you know. Could you imagine if you, kind of, in that scenario, was just stressing, oh my God, like you know, woe is me. Like why do we got to keep doing this? You probably could have stretched the whole process out another two days, right, and now you're two days ahead because you just listened. You said, look, I can't change this, maybe, maybe it was written somewhere and somebody missed it, right, but that's okay, like you, just kind of move forward from it.
Duarne:Look, processes can be dumb and they may not be documented properly, and, yeah, you're gonna have those moments you get like this is just complete crap. I wish this wasn't the case, um, and yeah, you can have those little tantrum moments, but just move through quick, right, okay, you, I wish this wasn't the case. Um, and yeah, you can have those little tantrum moments, but just move through quick, right, okay. You know what? This ain't fixing anything. Let's just get on with it. Let's just make it happen. And you're right, you actually get the choice of how you're going to respond in any situation and you get the opportunity to choose that method and option of communication at that time and how you're going to actually process that stress. And half the time, the things you can't control, you're going to get so much stress over them. If you try, if you hold on to them or if you just let them go, you drop your stress and let you focus on something more positive and you'll tend to find you'll achieve a little bit more. Anyway, like you were saying earlier, yeah.
Dave:And so you know, long story short, I think you're right. If you're, if you, if you are stressed in a moment, like really take a step back from that and look at it and say, is this something that I ultimately have control over? And if the answer is no, then you just found your like like let it go, you know, kind of move forward, like okay, what can I, what should I be focusing my attention on? If you are right, if it is something that's in your control let's say you know your money's not where you want it to be Well, that is sort of in your control, that you know some aspects of that right. Like, if you're, if you're seeking a job and you need, you know, a salary, obviously you can't control if somebody is going to hire you or not, but you can't control how many applications you're submitting. You can't control. Have you reviewed and updated your resume? You can control. Have you practiced? You know interviewing right? Have you gone? Have you done some mock interviews to make yourself better and more presentable? Those are the things in that situation that you can control.
Dave:If you're a business owner, like we are right, how many outreaches am I doing a day? Have I practiced the way that I'm having conversations with my prospects. When's the last time I reviewed my offer? When's the last time I reached out to a prospect that I gave an offer to that maybe rejected it, to just find out, hey, just curious, what was the reason why you decided not to move forward? Because we may think it's just price. But they may say well, I was really kind of confused about your offer. I really didn't know what I was getting or what the outcome was going to be. Boom, now you can have the information to move forward. So look at your scenario and say what can I control in this situation? And then go ahead and start working on that.
Duarne:I totally agree. I think that's a great advice to give people. You're always going to have presented challenges in life. There's always going to be challenges that are more stressful than other challenges, whether it's personal or other. And just finding ways to actually get little wins um, you can't see it, but there's a whiteboard over the back over here and that's so that we can write little wins on. And it was something which we just talked about the other day. Um, my coo and I and we agreed that you know, we've been so stressed out occasionally, um, with too many big wins that we haven't when we don't. It takes so long to hit those big wins. So, yeah, it's good to put those on there, but what we're doing is just like our project management systems are set up, we create little wins, little tasks, right, and we're ticking off those little tasks and celebrating those little tasks, and what we're doing is it's just a way to help us celebrate and reduce our stress, but also to just celebrate those wins, because there's still work that goes into those little wins.
Dave:Well, I just put this in the presentation I did last month about you know kind of change right in your mindset.
Dave:I just put this in the presentation I did last month about you know kind of change right in your mindset. Those little wins help you build habits, right, because the more and more you focus on, hey, this is what I did great today, this is what I did, so at the end of every day, hey, what did you do good today? That helps you build up that repetition, that consistency and a habit of any sort of change. So you know for yourself, you know, let's say, you guys are trying to do more outreach and you ultimately have a goal of, let's say, 20 a day and you hit, you know, 20. Great, hey, boom, we hit day one. You know of hitting 20. All right, now next day, now the next day, and you celebrate those little milestones, not like that goal of hitting $100,000 a month or whatever it may be right. You celebrate the things that are on that path and that journey. I love that you guys are doing that because I think it's important.
Duarne:I think you have to do it and I think you have to realize that there's going to be days you don't hit those targets. But having them at least sitting up there, we can sit back and go well, look, we hit all those ones. We're not doing too bad here, we we're not doing too bad here.
Dave:We're still hitting some good targets here and the journey starts with one step right. So you know you're not going to get 100,000. You're not going to go from zero to 100,000. You know, and it's also harder to go from zero to 10,000. So also give yourself credit to go from zero to 1,000, you know zero to 2,000. Like those smaller wins, you know on the journey of your path, right, you're not going to go, you know from. You know let's use baseball terms you're not going to go from being in a slump right to you know being hitting a thousand, you know either. But you know you celebrate that one good swing you had right, you, you kind of put that in your mind and you kind of remember it. Um, so small wins along the path will lead towards that bigger sort of journey.
Dave:It kind of reminds me of a video I saw this other day.
Dave:I don't remember his name because I just popped it in my head, but he's talking about his dad and you know that was our man. And then he's used this kind of mentality kind of for his business and it's just like long story short. He was ready to quit, he's ready to throw in the towel, and his dad just said to him well, just don't quit for one more day, Like don't quit today, right. And so he's used that kind of one more day mentality, right, To make him a success and push him forward. So you know, if you're ready to quit today, just give it one more day, like give it your best today, like make today your best effort, and then, and then you know, see what happens and see how you feel. Because when you do that, then you're going to go okay, one more day, and then one more day, and then one more day. And I feel like that's kind of the same thing, with like small wins, right, You're celebrating those things as you're pushing yourself forward.
Duarne:I think think that's a good call, I think that's really important and I think the thing is, you got to remember that. You know small wins can be anything for me, like I love it when I have a great meeting. I'll go to my wife. Go, I had a great meeting. You know what was it, what was so great about it? And I'll just pick a couple highlights that I thought were great in the meeting.
Duarne:Um, or, you know, every time we get a website deal, I still come, come in and go. Hon, we just got another website through. Oh, that's great, what sort of website. And we, we discuss it and you know we celebrate that. You know whether it's just sitting there and acknowledging it and talking about it. For a minute, there's an, there's a celebration of sorts to celebrate these small wins. Um, you know you might need a hundred website sales in a year to make it hit your target, but you should be able to take the minute to celebrate each one along the way, because that's going to help you appreciate it more and really, um, you've got.
Duarne:I think as a business owner, you tend to forget to celebrate the small wins. As a salesperson, like we were used to say, like I did sales and we were used to celebrating our small wins. Oh, I just sold a TV to that guy, oh, I just sold a hi-fi system to that guy, and we'd all hi-fi each other on the floor and say great work, and that was really cool, kept us all pumped up and motivated. Even the guys who didn't sell were like, oh wow, you just sold that. Oh, that's cool.
Duarne:I'm didn't sell. We're like oh wow, you just sold that. Oh, that's cool, I'm gonna go and sell something now and it's really fun and it's really motivational. Um, and I think that's the key, right, I think is you've got to find these little ways to motivate yourself and if you don't have a you know, a supportive partner in who's there within in your relationship, or you know you're doing this journey by yourself, find an external party to celebrate or, you know, just find a way to celebrate yourself. Maybe it's go down to your local McDonald's and get yourself a chocolate sundae to celebrate a sale or celebrate a milestone, or you know?
Dave:Yeah, I mean you could have your own routine or your own kind of.
Duarne:Whatever you do right, find something for yourself. Celebrate by yourself, but just find something for yourself that makes you feel good, because you should feel good about you know, hitting those little successes, and I think that's really important. I think a lot of people don't celebrate those little successes enough.
Dave:Yep, I agree, and so with that too, like you know, the advertising portion will kind of give you the caveat, right, if you want to click off for a minute, but if you were looking for for a team or you know, warren and I like we could also help. Like that's what we created the mastermind for is to help you not only celebrate right the small wins and get the accountability that you want, but to also be there as a support system for you to help you answer questions, give you strategy, talk through different things that are going on in your business, as well as just give you a community of like-minded business owners who are looking to grow, who are all looking to level up, and that's what the Triumph Mastermind. So, if you are interested, drop Mastermind in the comments. We will send you a link. We have our founding member specials right now where it's $59 a month lifetime. This is going to be a program where it's going to be $199 a month for once the founding member specials are done, and we're going to be giving you, monday through Friday, a daily Q&A session so that you can drop in whether it's me, dwarin or both of us as well as a weekly strategy session, a community WhatsApp access where you can ask questions even outside of the Q&A.
Dave:The goal here is that you have some team around you that can help you, give you, talk you through different scenarios that are going on in your business, as well as help you kind of brainstorm, celebrate the small wins, as we're talking about, and have that accountability for yourself by having a team that is just as invested in you, in your success, because we want each one of you to be a success and to level up in your business.
Dave:So, end of advertisement. If you want that, drop it down in the comments, mastermind, and I will send you or we will send you a link to get in and we can help you with that. And the founding members member specials are going on right now. So, on that note, you're kind of getting, I guess, into We'll call it the the big thing going on right in your world. So give us give us a quick sort of review of you know, something that you know is going on right now you know you're in the middle of it right now and kind of the high level overview and what the impact initially was for yourself, like what was the background, and then we can kind of talk through, kind of the things that you're doing to kind of walk and handle this moving forward.
Duarne:Yeah, look, I think the way to start this, I'd say, would be trust your gut. Your gut feeling is going to lead you, and trust your gut. When you get a gut feeling, follow that, because 99% of the time it's going to be right. And every time I've gone against a gut feeling, I've always found myself, um, regretting. Regretting it, right. I mean, you've been there too, right? You know what I'm talking about yeah, I get that.
Dave:I get that all the time in poker sometimes. Uh, you know, I'll have a good feeling that, oh, I'm not supposed to call. Then I call and it's like, yeah, I get it.
Duarne:Good, should listen to that, um yep. So we've had a client now an ex-client, but a client that made it very, very difficult at the beginning to get them on board to help them out with a virtual assistant. And they made us make the virtual assistant, I guess, jump through a lot of hoops to prove their worthiness or skillset, up until the point where we said, no, enough's enough, they've done enough, they've demonstrated enough. It's been a couple of weeks worth of showing you what they can do. We need to pay this person for what they're doing, and this was above and beyond like typically, like you don't.
Dave:You wouldn't like give somebody like that long of a period of time to determine if a va like you should be doing that during the interview process right, absolutely and generally, most people can do this through an interview process.
Duarne:Most people can decide this and look the big.
Duarne:The big reason here is because this particular, this particular client of mine at the time, had an expectation that a virtual assistant was basically could do everything in their business, that they were, um, using another team to do which, in which was an outsourced team, like we were doing portion of it, and they were using other people to do a portion of it and stuff for themselves as well, um, so they had quite a big expectation of what they expected and we were trying to level that expectation out but also trying to upskill the individual VA to the level, with our internal staffing, that we had to help this person on their journey to help grow their business effectively.
Duarne:And during all of this time it just felt it just didn't feel like it was quite the right fit for either the va that we were replacing or for ourselves.
Duarne:We felt like it was going to be a lot of work, but we'd had a previous relationship with this particular client where I'd worked with this person for quite a long time now, probably at six months months one-on-one, and I wanted to give them the chance to have a virtual assistant and work with them and try and help take some of their load off to help them grow.
Duarne:And during this process we agreed to terms we wouldn't normally agree to an extended training term at a discounted rate and also using internal resources during that training term at a discounted rate and also using internal resources during that training term to help upskill the individual VA. We even purchased courses to help upskill the VA before the start date where the VA was grateful enough to do those courses and upskill themselves and do the additional testing before getting agreed to be hired. At that point I'd already made the decision that if the client didn't pick up the VA, then we would pick the VA up personally and I'd find a role in my organization for them, because I felt pretty ordinary that they put so much work in and there was no way I was going to let them walk away after putting that much work in.
Dave:So let me so, let me, let me ask, let me ask you this question. So at the beginning, obviously there was a lot of, um, sort of misunderstandings and mixed expectations, and and so do you feel like in your situation, that you explained all those expectations and those kind of reasonableness factors to this client?
Duarne:Yeah, I think I did. I went back and I've reviewed all this over the last few weeks and I've looked at all the communication back and forth and I feel that I did communicate that In fact we actually said we weren't going to move forward at one point and that followed a phone call and a meeting and a conversation and an agreement that they would back down their expectations and they agreed to our terms, signed our agreement and the agreement we had in place was a six-month agreement, which is a minimum term agreement because we, as a Philippine registered company, we actually have to go out and abide by the local legislations and we have to hire people, give them the right probationary periods, make sure all their benefits are paid, et cetera. So we've got an obligation to those individual employees that we hire. And look, we made a few adjustments to the clauses to satisfy the expectation of the client. Clients advised that this is not a problem. I'm looking at staying on for one to two years Minimum working this person. It's a long-term commitment. I want to grow with this person who's my VA.
Duarne:So we felt comfortable that maybe the tide had turned and we were going to push it forward.
Duarne:We gave the VA the option to continue and explain some of the situation and some of our reservations, and they decided that it was something that they were willing to do because they felt they'd put in a lot of work as well to get to this point.
Duarne:And uh, yeah, so we get a month in, we're doing lots of training, um, internally, we're helping get them. Everything seems to be settling in nicely. We get to the end of two uh end of the second month and unfortunately the client had a fallback where they'd lost some uh income from losing a client. And they came to us advising this and um ask and uh asking us if it would be okay to drop the employ, the virtual assistant, to a part-time role. And even though our contract state doesn't allow for that, we obliged and said we could do it on a proviso that we charge a small management fee of a couple of hundred dollars um each month on top of the halved regular rate, which seemed like a fair compromise. So if you're going to get someone on a part-time or a casual rate, you expect to pay a little bit more.
Dave:you expect to um, well, yeah, you're typically even even if like even our services right if you're, if you're going to do half like, just because you're doing half the work doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to pay half the price.
Dave:You know exactly because there's a lot of setup and a lot of services that you do or that you outsource that you know you have to pay for, and whether or not you're doing it part-time, just think of it. For me, if I think of a scenario it's like just think of, like T-shirt printing, you still have that management setup fee, no matter if you're doing one or 500. That's still a fee that's got to get charged and you as a business owner have to consider this as well. Learn from Dorn here. The lesson that you can learn from this scenario is one make sure you're managing the expectations of your, of your client right away Right, and that you're not trying to bend too much. Before I get to the rest of this Dwarven, let me ask you this question just pops into my head Do you feel like, do you regret maybe bending as much as you did, because it allowed this client to maybe feel like a lot more than maybe they needed to have in this situation?
Duarne:A hundred percent. In fact, this whole situation has forced me to reconsider our position to the fact that we will not bend, that we will follow our process and if you're not happy with our process, well, unfortunately that's our process and we. You're not happy with our process? Well, unfortunately that's our process and we're not going to change it. Because when we start talking about our source staffing, we're following legislations, laws, and this particular person, the client, actually expressed very strong views that they did not care for our philippine-based laws around the employee. That was our problem, not theirs even though we are a registered agency, of course it's our problem and felt that any fees, dues, penalties etc. That might be incurred, uh, were not relevant to this particular person, that it wasn't going to be something that they should be burdened with or even having to know about or consider. So this is you know. So I mean that realistically, we should have said no, I should listen to my wife, who was like this is I don't get a good feeling.
Dave:Trust your gut, don't do it um, and so and and so, ultimately, you know, kind of kind of learning from, from dwarn, right, you know, making sure that you're not betting too much, just because you know, and when you're you're, you're a nice guy. But I feel like you did it because you're like, ah, I have this relationship, uh, I'm a nice guy, let me try to go above and beyond and that also make you come back and bite you in the ass, right, and I feel like maybe it did um, and then the second part of that, that, and then do I not let you go on with the, with the story. But the lesson here, too, is pay attention to your pricing. Like, don't undersell yourself, right in a scenario because a client is is starting to negotiate with you in terms of price and all these different things, and we we've talked about it before don't negotiate price, negotiate scope. Um, so keep your price the same and then just just negotiate the scope that you're willing to go with it.
Dave:I think it kind of goes along with this, right, you know she wants to to have the invoice, okay, well, well, here's what, here's how many hours you're going to get. You know, if she wants half the price, well, she's, she's going to get less than half the hours. You know and I think that's where you know there's some of uh that you can learn as a business owner from this is paying attention to you, know what you're offering, how much you're you're bending, because, pretty before you know it, you're bending too much and you're breaking, and you're, and you're, you're, you're putting yourself on this unstable ground, right. So 100.
Duarne:No, you're right, and you're 100 right.
Duarne:I mean, like the, it didn't like, the requests never, didn't seem to ever stop.
Duarne:You know, we had requests over the next period of time, over the next period of months, where we were being asked to um, why we're not covering the cost of a chat GPT paid, plus licensing for a dedicated staff member for their purpose, which is pretty clear that that's a specialized piece of software which should be required for the role.
Duarne:Then that would be something the client would cover, same as an email or a CRM system, et cetera. We were asked at one point to split the invoice into two different companies, where we'd actually signed an agreement with one company, but then being asked to split the invoice across two different companies, which added to the burden on our side, because we would have to do additional accounting work. Well, it turned out we didn't need to do that because it was around the same time that the request to go part-time came through, and the thing that, I guess, disappointed me was, before that email even came through, requesting part-time, this client had sent a bulk email out to their mailing list offering the services of our virtual assistant, which was hired from our company to hers under contract, full-time, part-time to anyone who wanted access to him.
Dave:Offering him yes, so so she. They took it on their, their initiative to contact everybody in their network and say hey, by the way. I have this virtual assistant or halftime, if anybody wants it.
Duarne:A hundred percent. And I just happened to be a CC on the email chain. Oh my gosh, so I happened to see it.
Dave:And I guess, like, like, let me ask like with, with your agreement or I guess, even in, I guess, virtual assistants in general like.
Duarne:That's not a common. Exactly like you can't sub lease a va, can you? No, especially over this client. This client had effectively three different businesses that they had the va working across within their own setup. So you can imagine someone working full-time across, split across three different business units and then introduce a whole nother business unit to them to have to try and understand and comprehend and expect that when we sign up a virtual assistant, it's no different to any other staff member you would sign up in anywhere in the world. You set a job expectation. You set an expectation what the job role is. You explain it clearly, you provide a job role and at no point did we say you'd be dealing with multiple customers with multiple businesses.
Duarne:That just gets far too complicated and that's something at least I would have expected a conversation about. And when I raised this as a concern with the client, the answer I got was I was trying to help you and get a placement for him and I would have accepted that answer except, within a week, the staff member who was employed by us. He was found out and advised us through the form of regular monitoring and checking on his system because we run, you know, screen capture software to protect our clients. Um, and that's monitored by our management team. There was a letter of offer on there from a third party which had been introduced by the client to have an interview, saying we would like to have an interview with you and talk to you about potentially coming and working for us part-time.
Dave:Um, so effectively, they're trying to steal you.
Duarne:They're trying to steal your point, essentially trying to steal our employee directly, which is a in breach of our legal obligation, of the of the staff here, like they have legal obligations and contracts with us, so put the staff member, the VA, in a very awkward position. So when they were confronted and asked about this, that was they were honest about it and they made no deny that this had occurred. In fact, they also advised that the client had contacted them directly and had said that they she would like to contact, she would like to hire them directly as well for the other part time. And she said I will make sure you're paid more than what you're getting paid now, um, and I'll make sure that I get you, um, this other role. So you've got a full-time salary coming in at a higher rate than you're getting paid right now. I promise you that full-time salary coming in at a higher rate than you're getting paid right now.
Duarne:I promise you that putting the, our staff member, in a very awkward position because they have, you know, you can imagine how that could make them feel and, um, yeah, it was just, it was a very awkward situation and one of the things that we just we have very wording, very strong wording in our contract where we have wording stating that if you'd like to take your your virtual assistant direct, you can do so and there's terms and conditions around that. There's a buyout of the contract where you can buy out the contract and take them on directly. There's a lot of benefits, I guess, for a out outsourcing a staff member directly. There's also a lot of benefits for the employee to be employed by an agency locally.
Dave:They get a lot of all the government benefits etc well, yeah, I was gonna say like they're gonna be under, yeah, they're gonna be basically under right under law, employment law for you guys, because you guys have over here, we have employment law. To freelance them. It's basically like they're becoming their own business over there. And I'm sure, it's probably a greater benefit for everybody.
Dave:There's pros and cons, just like every scenario there's pros and cons In this scenario it's like they're going behind your back, you know, to try and steal the employee, which is obviously a breach of contract. So something to you know put in place, depending on you know what type of business you are. I think, Dorn, you had this in your contract, which is great. But the lesson here, too, is you need to think about your agreements, right, your contracts with your clients, and not only are you protected as a business owner, but do you have things in there to protect, like the, the, your client as well, because you want it to be two-sided, like every agree, like the point of agreements is that it's just that, right, it's an agreement. Both sides are, have an understanding, both sides have protections in this relationship that you're building. And you know it's one of those things that early on in my career, when I was looking at agreements, I was like, oh, this is going to be all our business, right, it's got to be favored towards us. And ultimately, one causes a lot of animosity when you're talking to the other's party. But you want it to be a good relationship, so you need to make it a win-win for everybody. So agreements aren't trying to protect your own ass and then you know, don't worry about everybody else right, they should be two-sided. So always look at it and say how can I protect us, right? Yeah, exactly, it's got to be fair. And the thing there is that you're managing the expectations right and in your agreement you're saying this is what we agree to do, this is what you agree, as a client, to do in order for us to do our job properly. Here's the breach terms, here's the termination clauses, here's the different things.
Dave:And people say I don't want to have a contract with my clients. Great, you don't have to have a period contract where they're, you know, a six month minimum or a 12 month minimum. But you should still have agreements, and we've talked about this in the past because it helps both parties kind of manage expectations of the relationship, whether it's payment terms, whether it's penalties, whether it's you know the interest that you're going to charge, they'll pay you. Those all should be part of your agreement. And I think this scenario for yourself kind of reiterates that point that you had agreement with the client and they breached it and now you are able to do things because of that. And so tell us, what sort of wording or actions are you allowed now to take because of your agreement with this client because of that.
Duarne:Yeah, so at this point we're able to exercise the point which we have done, that they have actually breached our contract, which will activate the buyout clause, which means they're now liable for the buyout clause, which means they're now liable for the buyout clause for doing so. They've put the. Our employee has actually been rather stressed out about the situation. They've actually they requested to talk to our HR manager and our COO where they actually disclosed that the client on many video calls that they'd had because obviously working with a virtual assistant most of it's done by a video call expressed a lot of animosity to me personally and was badmouthing me personally, to my employees, and it made the mistake of assuming that the virtual assistant was their employee. Where the virtual assistant is working for them, they still have to answer to the company or the agency that hires them, which in this case just happens to be, you know, my, myself and my wife's company in the philippines. So that sort of level of animosity as you mentioned before the word animosity that was raised, that was the word used by the employees. So that puts undue stress on the employee that employee I had to find another role within our corporation, our business, for them to do, which I've been able to do, and that's fantastic. They're a great asset to us, but can you?
Duarne:The other thing is we were willing to let all of this go by the wayside, right up until the point of bad-mouthing individual people who, for no reason, to employees, and creating that animosity and stress is just completely uncalled for.
Duarne:So we sent a fairly strongly worded email to the client advising that we were aware of the situation, that we had extended significant, beyond what we would normally do consideration that they were in breach and that we were actually in the process of seeking legal action and what next steps would be for that purpose, but also just exercising the fact that, I think, making them aware that we know what has happened, that we have a relationship with our staff that is beyond just paying them a salary and you know, we have these relationships in place, because that is how we protect our customers.
Duarne:This is how we protect our clients, this is how we make sure that they're getting good people who are working on their account and within their businesses and they can trust them, because if we didn't have those, then we wouldn't be able to stand behind the staffing resources that we're supplying to businesses as virtual assistants and I think this is where a lot of businesses unfortunately, they fall into that trap where they just think that when you're hiring outsourced staffing, there's always another one. We'll just replace them, we'll get another one and they it's almost like a slave mentality well it's, it's just like.
Dave:It's just like an employee, you know, and I think, like what you have to what you miss. And I think if, especially when you've come from, I think, being as an employee, like you miss all these other things that go into you know, uh, what it takes from a business to bring on an employee, whether outsourced or internal, absolutely, there's training costs, there's investment, there's there's efficiency losses, there's productivity losses, like there's so many different things. It is in your best interest 90% of the time to try to coach up an employee who is already there than to try and go out and find a replacement. And I think you kind of mentioned it, right, there's this wrong mentality and I think, especially if you've been in a job, you're like, oh look, they just hire five different people. Yeah, but there's an investment there, right, there's HR costs. There's, you know, loss of productivity, there's the training time, there's all these different costs that go into an employee and a virtual assistant is, even though it's outsourced, right, and they're technically an employee of you, dwarne, or you know another VA company they are an internal piece of your organization and so you have, as a business owner, you have to see them as an employee, right. You have to see them and treat them as somebody that is working in your building with you. That is working in your building with you Because, yes, it's saving you a little bit of money because you're not paying payroll taxes and all these other costs, but they're still doing the job Like. You, as a business owner, have to take that responsibility to train them, give them the tools that they need to be successful right Now.
Dave:Obviously, if you're outsourcing, there are some training things you would expect to know from the outsource company that's providing them. But the majority of that, like on your business, like your specific business processes, your specific business systems, you, as the business owner or somebody from your team, has to train them on those. You can't have the expectation that the VA company is going to be able to do that. You have to do that. You have to invest, which is why you can't just say, oh, I'll just find another one, and I know this. I had to switch from one VA to another because one left. It wasn't me getting rid of them, but I have to invest, I have to retrain, because a lot of people don't understand the neuroemotional persuasion questioning model that we talk about a lot. I have to train a VA on that, like how we're talking to people.
Dave:Admittedly, it is in your best interest to coach them up and spend more time with them, if you need, before you say, all right, this person's done. And it goes back to the interviewing which we've talked about before, like, if you're not interviewing right, you're probably hiring the wrong people. So go back and listen. I don't remember. I think it was like two or three episodes ago where we talked about interviewing and the questions that you're asking, and are you doing it the right way? Where you're not talking Right? I think, dwarin, you mentioned in your scenario that you found that you were talking too much instead of asking questions, and so you know ultimately, ultimately, same thing with vas um you you have to ask questions, the right questions, in order to make sure that you're hiring the right one. But it's way, way more beneficial to invest yourself in the training and in the services, uh, instead of just trying to find anyone.
Duarne:I totally and I think like if you're going to employ somebody in your business, whether it's outsourced or if it's somebody direct on in person, you shouldn't be hiring anyone. If you can't comfortably say you've got six months, whether their salary's sitting there waiting in ready to go, then you shouldn't be hiring them. Because if you get to in this case, the client got two months into a contract that was six months and then decided they wanted to change the terms of the contract and as far as they were concerned, it was just a contract's term change. But from our point of view is it's a real person with a real job that's been given a 40 hour a week role and now you want to tell them that they only have 20 hours a week.
Dave:Yeah, and I get it from both sides right, because obviously we're business owners and but you know, like you said, I think as a business owner you have to analyze every single decision that you're making. And we've talked about cash flow projections, right. So you know, not only modeling do I have enough to take this on right now but also modeling those scenarios that like, okay, if I lose some revenue, can I still take this on, you know, and looking at like what are the probabilities, you know, of the different scenarios happening? Like maybe it's only 15% that you are going to lose client, you know, and so the likelihood of that is low, but it's still a likelihood, or the likelihood that you grow. And so what you do is then you wait all these different scenarios and then you come up with a solution, you come up with an answer that's best for you moving forward.
Dave:Now, obviously sometimes things are going to come unexpected, you know, maybe a client leaves because maybe they had a death. For you moving forward, now, obviously sometimes things are going to come unexpected. Maybe a client leaves because maybe they had a death, or maybe there was a situation, governmental change. Those things are out of our control for the most part. But if you're just on the edge of a decision one way or another and it's probably in your best interest to maybe stay on the conservative side while you're small, especially if you don't have a reserve, you're basically your cash projections are pretty much break-even.
Dave:If you don't have a reserve built up, then you should probably lean on the conservative side and then give yourself the goal of okay, I need to bring in like $2,000 more a month and I can make this happen. And then when you do that, okay, now you're in that position and I think it's for any sort of decision, like you know, having that proper expectation that I need to have a three to six month period to where I need to realize that one. Once I make a decision and Alex Ramosi said this, you know we talked about them a lot but any decision you make is going to result in an immediate dip in productivity, efficiency, etc. Whenever you make a decision, you don't just go straight up. It goes down because you have to take time out to train, you have time out to learn a new system, your team has to take time out to learn a new system. If that's what you're implementing, but from the get-go you're going to go down whether it's for a month or two.
Dave:And the question is can you sustain that? And if you can sustain it, because the upside right. Let's say you're going to dip maybe 10% in productivity but the upside is 60%, well, that offsets it, right. But if the dip is 10% and you're expected to only go up 15%, well it's only actually a 5% increase. So is it really worth it for the money that you're paying in? And so you're looking at the ROIs of these different projects and these different things that you're going to be doing in your business to really determine the best decision point.
Duarne:So paying attention.
Dave:Yeah.
Duarne:I think you're right there, dave too. And like the other thing you should really definitely consider is whether it's software, whether it's automation, whether it's a person you're hiring, you need to ask yourself what is the benefit of hiring this person. What are they? What is the purpose of this person? Are they a cost to the business so that you get more time back yourself to do other things, or just get more time back to yourself? Is it to help you get through a large workload that you can't do yourself without doing ridiculous hours all the time, or is there actually a task for them to do to actually generate income for themselves? If it's an income generating role, then perhaps that's. And there's an option to get an income generating role and somebody to help you with administration side of work. Maybe the income generating roles which you get them to do first, or you get someone on for that role first and then you bring them on, or you get the software to do the generate more income and increase your revenue so that you can afford to. But you asked earlier. There was a question. You asked where, how would I? How have we changed our processes? What processes will we change? I think just after what you've said. I think there's another process we need to add, where we need to talk about the financial stability of our potential clients who are looking to hire people, because we're looking at the potential livelihood of individuals as well that we're going to be placing um, and I think that's an important question to just make sure that you know the potential clients actually know that if they are going to bring on a virtual assistant, there's a real person on the other end that's relying on that salary. There's a real person on the other end who you know is ready to do go to battle and do that work for you and just making sure you're in a position that you can support that person because they're going to become a part of your business family. They're going to become part of your costs that need to go out right and if that's not something you're capable of handling at this point, you need to make that decision at the time, before signing documents to say you're going to take someone on. So I think that's. I think there's lots of things that could be. I can learn from this um. There's lots of things others can, but there's one thing I'll add to this as well.
Duarne:There was an article released um about a court case in australia. Um, and it's the second one I've heard of in the last uh, 18 months. This one was quite public. There was a paralegal hired as a freelancer directly, without an agency. So they were hired and paid directly by an australian law firm back in australia. Um, in fact, it wasn't a law firm, it was a collection agency which needed a paral legal to help with their documentation legal documentation that they were sending out for their credit uh collections and she worked for the company. She was paid quite modestly. I think it was close to 15 us dollars an hour. Um is what it would have came in at, which is quite good. It's better than what she would have got as a paralegal here in the philippines directly.
Duarne:And at some point they had to let her go. It wasn't working. They didn't have enough work. I don't know the details, it wasn't very clear in the article. Well, she filed a unfair dismissal with the australian fair work trade, which is a government department, and she won. And not only did she win, they were ordered to back pay two years worth of salary because they were paying under the australian minimum salary award wage. Oh wow, so they actually were out of pocket quite a lot.
Duarne:They thought they were saving some money by doing this and hiring directly, and what they found themselves is in a bit of a shit show because they didn't have the protection of an agency in between. The benefit of an agency sitting in between is the fact that the agency can take disciplinary action, which is based on legal ramifications and legislation in the Philippines, with that employee. There is no, and the agency sends an invoice for services rendered to the Australian or the American based company, therefore putting a buffer between you and the individual. You're not hiring them directly. Directly, you have an agency sitting in between and their job is to absorb the legal ramifications of something that may occur.
Dave:Yeah, so I I think that's like you know, and in the united states obviously we have the independent contractor versus employee and I think what everybody thinks and I've run into this in so many different scenarios with business owners is they feel like, well, I'll just bring somebody on as an independent contractor and I'll save money, because then you don't have to pay payroll taxes and you don't have to, you know, have benefits and all this stuff, and then they just get a flat dollar amount, you know, and and everybody's happy. Now the employee initially is like, oh, I'm getting a higher rate, I'm getting a higher rate, I'm golden. Until they go to file their first tax return to realize that they owe all this extra taxes. Right, because now if you're an independent contractor, there are benefits because you get. Else, they're charging you both sides of Social Security and Medicare, because how that works over here is each as an employee. The employee pays one half out of their salary, right, and then the company is matching that, which, again, if you're in the employee mindset and you just have a paycheck your whole life, you don't know that. You don't see that because it doesn't say anywhere that the employee is also paying. If you pay $1,000, the employer is also paying $1,000.
Dave:Well, if you're an independent contractor or you're self-employed, you have to pay both sides of that. You have to pay the employee part and the employer part on your net income. Now, it's not the full, it's not your gross revenue, it's your net income. But still, if you're paying people who should be employees of independent contractors, they don't know that. So they're like oh, I'm getting paid $30 an hour when maybe this job is only worth $20 an hour.
Dave:So they're like, great, and they're not putting away money for taxes because, essentially, as you pay an independent contractor, as a business owner, you would pay more an hour, right, because you're, you're, you got to cover taxes essentially. But the employee or side of it, the employee side of it sorry, they don't put it away, they just spend it all. And then taxes come around. They're like wait a minute, what? What do you mean? All this stuff, um and so, and there's also laws over here that if you set hours right, if you set the hours that they have to be at your job, if you give them the tools of the trade, right, they should be employees same.
Duarne:That's that australia is exactly the same. That was what they got. That's what got them. There was another accounting firm had the same problem happen to them as well about 12 months ago and they had to backdate a year's worth of salary. It ended up costing that particular accounting firm, I believe, double what they were paying the actual Filipino employee. And what that did.
Duarne:Is that actually put into practice, now that you don't have to be in the country where you're employed? If you're employed to an Australian business or company and you're employed directly, then you should be getting all the employee benefits of a direct employee. If you are not, then you are liable as a company to pay that, and I think it's going to set precedence that this is going to be something we're going to see. Um, in other countries, like the us, some states may start having people file cases against this. You know, with freelancers who you hire a freelancer from the philippines or india or pakistan or South America and you think that you're immune to this only to find out that that individual can actually file cases and deem that you didn't actually pay them the minimum wage that was necessary or required. And that's pretty scary as a small business owner, because you don't factor that into your decision-making.
Dave:And the thing you've got to think about too right is that, like you, like they did with the australian case, same thing over here in the us. If let's say you're paying somebody's independent contractor, they have a right to go to. The rs is to hey, I, I, I don't feel like I'm an independent contractor. And if they can prove right that you know, hours were set, the tools were given, they had to represent themselves, they had to wear a uniform, your name, all of that stuff and represented as your business, the IRS could make a determination that, yes, they should have been an employee. And what will happen? And this is where a lot of people lose and they don't realize it the IRS will come into your business, do an analysis for all your employees and if they feel like they should have been taxed as an employee, they will charge you all of the employer side of those taxes for every employee and they'll go back and they could more than likely go back seven years and charge you all of their taxes for all these people, and then all the penalties and interest on top of that for doing it wrong, I was going to say. And so one one. And so people are like oh, it's been going well, like everybody's happy. I said, yeah, right, everybody's happy now.
Dave:But if there's a disagreement with an employee or you know, one person leaves and they, they have something, they have a bad experience. All it takes is one person in their ear to be like oh wait, what happened with that? I don't know, I was an independent contractor and I just got let go. Hey, well, tell me about it. Especially if they have some like a friend like me, right, who know and I'm not going to say like I'm trying to screw small business owners, but I'm trying to help a friend too and I'm like well, why weren't you an employee?
Dave:Do you know you can file like so that you don't, especially when I'm doing somebody's taxes too, and they're like, I don't know why I owe all this tax. Well, tell me about your job. You could go out and you can actually file a complaint. And I've told a couple of people that, like, if you like your job, don't file a complaint, because they're going to know it's you. But if you're, if they let you go, you know you have, you have a right to file a complaint that you should have been an employee and they can go back to that business owner and they could really mess up that business if they really wanted to and and that's.
Duarne:That's scary for a business owner too, because if you're making uninformed decisions, which we've talked about a bunch of times if you're making uninformed decisions because you don't know all the rules, you, you don't know all the rules of the game, which is what's occurring. A lot of business owners are going out there getting independent contractors thinking they're going to be able to solve all their problems. They're not putting an extra person on the payroll. They go and hire themselves an outsourced person and do it cheap, because they're going to get them through a third directly rather than going through a third party agency or platform to get them. I mean, there's benefits for both sides, but it's like parking in a one hour zone, that that's free parking and there's. You know that you could get ticketed, but the meter guy doesn't really check the meter very regularly. You know, if you don't move it with within the within the hour, you're probably going to get a chance to get a ticket. But you're willing to take the risk because maybe one in 10 times you park there, you'll get a ticket.
Dave:I mean it's your risk, you know, you factor right what's really well to take, and I and I, you know it's the same thing in in business, in life, every, every decision you make is a risk and it's just how risk adverse do you want to be? If you want to take zero risk, then you're going to be the conservative person, you're probably looking for a standard paycheck and that's all you're going to do. Us, as business owners, we are more, we have the ability to take more risk on than others, right? We don't we take what do on than others, right, we we? We don't we. We take. What do you want to call it? We talk calculated risks, right, where you know we're looking at different scenarios and then we're saying, okay, what's the likelihood? Okay, you know, let me, let me calculate that. All right, I'm willing to take on a little bit more.
Dave:You know, because any investment that we make is a risk. Any investment in your retirement is a risk. Any investment in the stock market is a risk because there's no guarantee. There's no guarantees in life except death, taxes and change, like. Those are the three things that are guaranteed in life. Anything else there's always a risk associated with it. Our friendship, right? Our life waking up tomorrow. You know anything is a risk, and so you just have to realize. You know how much do you want to. You know, take on how much are you comfortable with and then go from there.
Duarne:That's it. And every risk presents an opportunity and every opportunity presents a risk. So keeping the balance right is important. So keeping the balance right is important. So for me, I think my takeaway from today would be trust your gut. Your gut's generally going to be right, yeah for sure.
Dave:And on top of that, just try and know as much about the facts as you can, or at least protect yourself by understanding the situation better and uh, you know, trying to inform others and making sure that you're making informed decisions I, I agree and I wish you all the best, obviously, with the outcome you know whether or not like whether the client's going to be out of your hair or you're going to be able to get some sort of breach, you know, kind of um settlement, whatever it ends up being. But I wish you the best in that because I can understand that frustration, especially with the individual, as well. As you know, now you have a VA that had to go through all this as well, so an employee of your organization.
Duarne:That's it. I mean, like good thing at, the VA is pretty resilient. Like good thing, the VA is pretty resilient. Va is a good person that you know went out with our COO for a coffee this afternoon and was all smiles and happy and we've got them positioned in a new role which I think they're going to be pretty happy. It's a more senior role and they get to work day shift, so they're pretty comfortable about that rather than having to work at night shift um, so, yeah, our time over here, yeah, exactly everything swings in roundabouts.
Duarne:Um, you know so sure, I think, at the end of the day, everything's worked out internally for us.
Duarne:And, um, you know what, we're just going to trust our gut, we're going to ask more questions, we're going to we're not going to take on people if we feel they're not the right fit for us. And I think, uh, just being willing to say to yourself I'm not going to take people on who are not the right fit is a great something, is a business. Only, you have to do, um, because, whether it's taking on people from a position of guilt or just expectation or even just desperation, I mean, don't take them on if it doesn't feel right. And just, you know, sometimes delays are a good thing, like we were talking about before, and delays in decision-making gives both parties a chance to make a decision whether it was the right choice to make. And, yeah, it wasn't the right choice for us to allow this to occur this time. And my key consideration is we allowed it to happen and we take responsibility for that and, moving forward, we'll make better decisions to stop this sort of thing from happening again so trust your gut.
Dave:That's your takeaway. I love it 100. Trust your gut. I need to start doing that a little bit more sometimes, especially on the poker table.
Dave:Yeah, especially on the poker table. Um, for me, you know, as I said, as I kind of started, I think the biggest thing is, you know, focusing your attention on the things that you can control. Um, far too many times, personal as well as business, I've myself, I've caught myself, uh, focusing my attention and my um mental capacity on things that are out of my control. So for for me, if you made it this far, you know, your takeaway for me today is make sure that, no matter what, you are only focusing your attention, your efforts, on things that are within your control. You're not overthinking things that are out of your control. You're not stressing out over things that are out of your control. You're only focusing and working towards the things that are in your control, that you can move forward with. So that's my takeaway If you made it this far. We appreciate you guys. It's been a wonderful, another amazing effort. I hope you have a wonderful 4th of July if you're in the United States and you're safe and nobody gets their limbs blown off, and if you are shooting off fireworks, but I definitely appreciate you being here.
Dave:Also, we are going to start having guests. So, if you are a business owner and you want to come on and you want to talk about a scenario or situation or seek advice on something that you're going through in your business, drop a comment down below and use the word guest and we will give you an invitation to have a quick conversation with Duarno or I to kind of figure out if you're a correct fit and if we're a right fit for you and your your sort of situation to come on. We're we're looking to start these here maybe this month at the end of the month, but we want to help business owners. So if you want to talk about your business as well as something that's going through, and Dwarna and I can kind of help give you some advice and point you in the right direction, drop that word down below in the comments guest, and we will help you get qualified for the show and get you on the show. So if you want to be on, you want to talk about your business or scenario, let's do that.
Dave:But, duar, I hope you have a wonderful rest of your weekend with that beautiful baby girl that you just had and we're going to enjoy our safe, uh, holiday weekend. Uh, me, I'm gonna watch some baseball for my son. Uh, do we gotta? We gotta head out. Now to his first game of the day, but I hope you guys have a great week and uh, duarn, again, I always appreciate you being here thanks, dave, love being here.
Duarne:I love the conversations and, uh, I hope your son's team wins. Awesome, I appreciate that all right.
Dave:Everybody do all that fun algorithmy stuff you know do like. I love the conversations and I hope your son's team wins Awesome. I appreciate that. All right, everybody do all that fun algorithmy stuff you know do like subscribe. You know share like comment. Talk to y'all later, see you buddy, take care guys, bye.
