Brandon Held - Life is Crazy

Episode 51: Daddy Issues and Dating: Men and Women Relationships with MagsMindset!

• Brandon Held • Season 3 • Episode 51

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Maggie Sandnes joins Brandon to share her journey from growing up in Norway to navigating the complexities of relationships and self-discovery. They explore how childhood trauma shapes adult decisions and discuss the fundamental differences in how men and women approach commitment.

• Growing up in Norway with privilege but also experiencing significant emotional trauma
• How Maggie's father emotionally disappeared during her teenage years, creating lasting relationship patterns
• Early childhood sexual experiences at age 4 that normalized unhealthy views of intimacy
• Transforming professional challenges into opportunities – saving a hospital millions through innovative problem-solving
• The painful consequences of betraying a friendship and lessons learned about integrity
• Why men struggle with commitment and marriage in modern society
• The statistical reality of divorces are initiated by women 
• How communication breakdowns and inconsistency create frustration between genders
• Moving from anxious attachment to a place of surrender in relationships
• Finding peace through faith and trusting in divine timing

Stay curious and get to know yourself better. That's the path to liberty and it's incredibly freeing to be in that place of truth, even when it's painful to acknowledge.

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Speaker 2:

Outro Music. Welcome back to Brandon Held. Life is Crazy, and today is a podcast that has been long in waiting for me. I'm with Maggie Sanis today and, if you don't know, I have been a guest on her podcast and also she's officially the only podcast or that I have listened to her entire podcast. I love it. I love hearing her perspective and point of view. You can tell she's intelligent and well thought out and she really brings that to the podcast, and so I'm very excited to talk to her today about her life and her mindset and her way of thinking, and we're gonna challenge the male and female perspective on life and relationships. So how are you doing today, max?

Speaker 1:

First of all, I am so moved by that introduction, my goodness. Thank you so much for your kind words. I moved to tears almost. I'm in a very fragile state of mind so that could easily happen, but I'm super excited to be here and to have this conversation and it was such a joy having you on my podcast and to have such a fragile conversation and really getting to dig deep. So I'm excited to be on the other end of it today and I'm doing really well.

Speaker 2:

Oh, that's great and I just told you before we started this. I don't want to make you cry, so I didn't know my intro was going to do that, but anyway, it's all true, it's 100%. Everything's all true. I don't lie or bullshit on my show. I only come out telling the real, raw truth. So we're just going to do what we do on this show and we're going to go through your life story and we're going to start there and then, after we talk about that, then we're going to get into the male-female relationship stuff and mindsets on that. So let's just start at the beginning. I know where you're from and all that, but tell the people what was your childhood like? Where did you grow up?

Speaker 1:

I grew up in Norway, born and raised, and that's where I spent a majority of my life. I am currently 28 years old, living in the US, and I have been living in the US on and off since 2018. But so from 1996 to 2018, I've been living in Norway. Very okay, I really cannot continue this conversation without recognizing my privilege.

Speaker 1:

I am so incredibly aware of the fact that I have grown up in one of the safest, richest countries in the world, and I have grown up with fantastic parents that was really devoted to their children and to the marriage, and I had siblings who loved and cared for me, and I've had the true blessing of getting to do outside of school activities such as soccer and dancing, and so did my brothers, and we would vacate over the summers and we've had such a blessed and beautiful life.

Speaker 1:

But what we also have is a life story of our own all of us individually. I really do recognize that I come from a really beautiful place but, that being said, although all of those outside kind of factors are so grand and beautiful, we also have our own set of experiences through life, by being exposed in school and being exposed to all of these new traditions that shows up, such as like the introduction to the smartphones and social media and internet, and like what that does to a teenager trying to develop, and also we. There was also some level of trauma that happened in my childhood that was outside of my parents control as well.

Speaker 2:

I want to know. Your trauma is a huge part of this show. And it's a huge part of it because not only does it show how it shapes you, it shows that you can go through trauma and still thrive and have a beautiful life. So, as much as you're willing to share, I want to hear.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, there's so many different nuances to it. There's several stories that kind of goes into some of how I developed my relationship with my father and how that kind of bled into my relationships committing to men as an adult and that has been something that's been. It's very triggering and it's really hard for me to talk about in certain instances. It's something that I know it's a healing relationship, currently a work in progress, in the sense that we, as a result of my podcast and as a result of my openness and as a result of me talking about it out loud but also bringing it to my father and asking him for a kind of permission to talk about certain things on my podcast, that has allowed for a healing journey within my relationship with my father, which I appreciate. Like, when I was a child, he was my soccer coach and he was my brother's soccer coach. Since I was the little sister to both of my brothers, I would be the mascot on each of their teams, always traveling with the guys, because I was so involved with that squad. So I had such a present father and I had such a safety around men because I was always treated so well and that was something that felt like such a strong start for me. It really built character for me. So my dad lost his last living parent because he lost his father when he was 18, I think it was, or maybe he was like 21. I'm not sure and he just disappeared. For me, like it's like that man that was always there, that was always so present in my life, just like disappeared. And the things that makes that so troublesome for me to identify is because he wasn't. He was literally there but he wasn't present. Yeah, and, and what I mean by that is that there was just so many occasions where my family would be gathered around the table, where my mom and my brothers and I, and to some extent, my father, would have very thoughtful conversations, very thought provoking conversations. Like that has been a very predominant thing in my family, that we spend a lot of time around the table talking. So we call it solving world problems. It's silly but it's something meaningful to us.

Speaker 1:

But for as long as I could remember in my shaping years as a teenager and until now, like my dad would be there but he's sleeping, so he's sleeping through all of that, and so he's not really there, he's not really engaged, and there would be times where he would like kind of ask me stuff like like how old are you again? Or like when it was my birthday, like he, he wouldn't know. And after the fact it would be like, oh, what did your mom get you for a present from us? Like he was not engaged, know. And after the fact it would be like, oh, what did your mom get you for a present from us? Like he was not engaged, like it was very much. It was a distance there that just became so apparent, but it was. It was because the contrast was so big.

Speaker 1:

I didn't understand where that came from and mostly because, like at the time, I was just 13 myself, like how was I possibly going to comprehend like any of this? I hadn't done any reflection. I didn't understand grief, I didn't understand what he was going through. I didn't understand how him and my mom raising teenagers and my brothers were like, and so my mom took on a lot of responsibility, which built a lot of resentment between them. So they were also struggling in their marriage during that time, although they were able to get through all of that in therapy, which is fantastic.

Speaker 1:

And those years they shaped me a lot and they shaped how I viewed myself and my worth and how I viewed myself in comparison to men. And it just became so clear to me that because of how angry I was at my dad, like I knew that was the wound, I knew that was the core wound and where it came from. And it was a lot of unpacking and a lot of different scenarios that kind of had to be identified for me to get into the nitty gritty details of that. And we've all struggled in our own way but found, since my parents were able to do it, we found the way back to valuing the traditional, the marriage, the commitment, the family life, the values that is in and around that. But that took us many years. That whole kind of full circle moment didn't happen until this year for me Okay, yeah, so there's a lot going on there.

Speaker 2:

You did start off with this beautiful, privileged childhood that you recognize that you have, which is part of the story, but also, let's face it, you have daddy issues. Let's be real.

Speaker 2:

That's what you call that because teenage years for young women are arguably the roughest years of your life and we all know how important father-daughter relationships are in what a daughter grows up to be and look like and behave. And I will say to you that my belief is that since you're 28, you still have many years to figure out really how this has truly impacted you and formed who you are and probably still who you're going to be for years to come. So I don't really think like more details are needed necessarily, because absent father as a teenager, it makes sense that kind of says a lot, unless there was just more to include, just in an effort to move on so we can get through this whole thing. You start to get into your later teen years, your high school graduation years, so how does that form your next steps and where you're going to go and what you're going to do?

Speaker 1:

that's a really good question. There's like a a parallel storyline. That is like you have that father-daughter aspect of it all. But then there's been this parallel journey of my complete and utter confusion with sexuality, and that is something that started when I was really young and I didn't understand and identify until I was 24, mid-20s.

Speaker 1:

That's when I realized that, oh my gosh, that was a big trauma and I had not said it out loud before. I had said it out loud before because I didn't really think it was that abnormal. But it was when I was like saying it as an adult that I heard myself and I viewed myself through the lens of an adult, remembering that child, viewed myself through the lens of an adult, remembering that child and I'll get into that, I'm talking very cryptic right now is the exact same shape, size, age as my little baby niece, my tiny little niece, yeah. So it wasn't until I said out loud as an adult that I realized that, oh gosh, that was not okay, that was, there was nothing okay, what was going on yeah, so I know the story.

Speaker 2:

I heard it on your podcast. But, for the listeners, please tell them what you're referring to.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I'm having this aha moment with my best friend. We're watching a movie and it's one of those like wholesome family movies. So, as disgusting as this might sound like, it wasn't a gross thing. This was a very.

Speaker 1:

It was a nice family scene, but the point of the matter is that you have two children and they're like neighbors, and the girl next door, boy next door kind of thing, and they're like showing each other their genitals. They're probably somewhere between like six to eight years old, but, point being, it wasn't that strange in the sense that I think this is pretty normal. I think that's happened in many households where I think it's your neighbor or cousin or whoever. It is like people show your genitals just because curiosity, and that's just a part of life.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 1:

In curiosity, I asked my friend do you have your own version of this for you? What did this look like for you? And when he asked me back, that's when my aha moment was like, oh, that wasn't the same. That's not okay, because what I explained was how, when I was four years old, I'd been at a sleepover with one of my neighborhood girls the ones who lived in my community and someone that I had. All of our parents knew each other, like all the kids in the neighborhood knew each other. It was all pretty safe and sound and I never really had.

Speaker 1:

This isn't something that I have addressed as some sort of trauma in the sense that it was a traumatic event that made me so like that. I look back at that particular moment as something so painful or bad, but it's the ripple effect of what came from it that that makes me feel that way. So when I was four, that was the first time I was exposed to having sex with someone the same age as me, which was weird because we were the same age, meaning that, like, I didn't register as this as something as bad. I registered it as a play with someone that I love, and it was also the fact that it feels good, right. So even as a kid I understood that this was good, so we had some sort of connection going on there. Had some sort of connection going on there.

Speaker 1:

But I also have these core memories of like moaning and stuff from the parents in the room next door which, like now that I'm like piecing things together as an adult and I recognize other family stories within that whole kind of dynamic. I recognize that this is probably a child that's likely been abused herself and is adapting that behavior onto me because this is what she's experienced and now she's doing it to me. Is adapting that behavior onto me because this is what she's experienced and now she's doing it to me. Yeah, and simultaneously I would do the same with other friends because it wasn't a bad experience in itself. But what kind of developed here is that you're normalizing adult behavior as play when you're a child literally a child we do that, though.

Speaker 2:

Right, I mean we. Yeah, when I was a kid, we would pretend to smoke, we would pretend to drink beer, we would pretend to do all the things you can't do as a child that you can do as an adult, and there was definitely some of that little kid being naked with each other's kind of stuff going on with me. As a kid too, I think in some ways we feel like that's just normal and wanting to grow up as kids. But your story was almost shocking to me because I've never witnessed anything going that far. So to me it definitely was next level as far as my perspective and what I've witnessed as a child.

Speaker 1:

Yes, because there is that level of like normalcy and it's also, I remember, when I had this conversation with my mom the first time, when I was just like trying to tell her, like for the very first time, when I was like. That was I think it was a little over a year ago, almost two years ago now, when I told her, and that was like years and years later, because that was when I decided that, oh, I need to talk about this, I need to get this off my chest because, like of everything that I've else that I've done, it reaches to a certain level of awareness where I just bring it up to my mom. That's kind of where that's the end point. It's like now I'm healing once my mom knows everything. You know what I mean. That's the threshold, kind of.

Speaker 1:

No secrets, no more secrets, yeah, and her reaction was actually the same, which was like in real time when this happened. When she was asking me like but isn't this kind of normal? I didn't go so much into details on like exactly what we were doing because I was telling my mom, because I felt that wasn't necessarily right or necessary. So she was almost confused as to like the level of severity and also, I think, the age and stuff. Like she kind of fell through the cracks. But once I got the details on the table, she's oh, okay, there's this definite component of taking it next level, but it's also just how nuanced sex and how fleeting all of that became for me as I grew as a teenager and I have one for four years, the first ever relationship I had. I don't really talk about it too much on my podcast because it just was pretty much seamless, it was just good.

Speaker 1:

We were young and we were stupid and if I was going to dissect that relationship, it was probably really toxic in many ways, but nonetheless we were 14 to 18 years old. It doesn't really matter, but those years that I was in a committed relationship with him was such a blessing for me because I was always really loyal to my boyfriends in that sense, like that, I wanted to stay committed to the relationship, so we were really loyal to each other for those four years. But I know that if it hadn't been for him and those four years, I would have been a I don't even know what the term for it is, but I just know that I would not have been able to contain myself as a teenager where everyone is just learning about sex for the first time. So that was a major blessing for me, although that period came later in life nonetheless, but I wasn't able to escape it. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Because you do talk about some some tough things. You do some hard lessons you had to learn, which we'll get to eventually. I'm glad you brought that up because I was hoping you would bring that up when I initially asked you about your childhood. But again, on my show I only want people to open up and say and reveal what they're comfortable doing. Obviously I want as much as you can give, of course, but also I'm not trying to force you to reveal or say anything you don't want to reveal. So I know your detail is more graphic in your podcast and what happened when you were a child, and that's perfectly fine. If people want to hear those details, they can go to your podcast. Becoming Secure with Mag's Mindset which is a great podcast.

Speaker 2:

Genuinely, I think people should listen to it, especially women, who are probably identifying and going through the same things you are. So thanks for bringing that up and making that a part of the story that makes sense. So now you're finishing high school. What's your next steps?

Speaker 1:

My gosh, this was just such a long. Yeah, oh, my gosh, thank you for bringing it back. That was good, yeah, no, okay, I felt like it was important to share those two parallels, because all of this has happened simultaneously, right, yeah, so this relationship ends. I'm 18 and I'm about to enter into a new relationship pretty quickly, because this is where my anxious attachment is just manifesting completely. I was not able to be alone for a second, and this four-year relationship that I had too. We were attached to the hip for four years. Like none of us had friends after that, because we were just with each other always. So it was like like that's what we needed at the time and that's what we. That was what that relationship was like. We can't really do anything to change that, but like the truth of the matter is, we had a very anxious attachment to each other and I don't think you would change it if you could.

Speaker 2:

I wouldn't, no way. That's who you guys were and that worked for both of you at that time. It it did, so no point in looking at that as any kind of I don't even explanation needed for why you were like that. You were like that. It worked for you, that's it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and that was just the case at the time and I didn't really know how to cope alone. I didn't really know how to cope without that security of a partner to share your moments with, because I got so codependent in that season of my life. So after a month I was already in that month period I had I don't know. I had been able to get around pretty quickly already because there was just like no shaking, that didn't register at all in my head that I needed to find myself or be on my own or just stand your own ground. It was like no, this void needs to be filled and it needs to be filled now, which led to my five-year relationship, which I do talk about in the podcast, which is when I'm referring to my military ex-boyfriend and that is also like a long, beautiful story in its own. But that's when I headed into that relationship and that all happened in and around college. But I didn't get into the school that I wanted to, and at this point I'm in the last year of college and I am in a class with 13 girls and the rest of the people were boys and those boys were either like boyfriends or friends of all of these girls in this friend group, because these 13 girls are all friend groups and this is a friend group that I had been in the two years prior and a lot of these girls I have grown up with and I've known them my entire life since, like we were neighbors. I've known them my whole life and I thought last year I am no longer a part of that friend group and I am not really sure why. So I come back from summer and we I'm back in class and school and it was slowly transition. I just realized that I was no longer a part of any of the group chats. I wasn't really involved. Like it was really awkward. I could tell that I wasn't, but it was also very troublesome for me because I didn't really know how to navigate like the balance between the boyfriend and the friend group stuff. So I'm sure that kind of had a lot to do with it. Like that I was probably prioritizing my boyfriend more. It was hard for me to maintain these friendships, unfortunately, and it just pushed me out completely. It was a lot of other stuff that happened too which is just like girl drama. That's not really that even worth mentioning, but it was like it definitely shaped me and it completely squeezed me out.

Speaker 1:

So the last year of college was pretty miserable. I was really lonely and very alone. I was sitting in the middle of the classroom alone. That's what my teacher asked me. I was like, hey, just because she asked me, she knew that I was alone in there. Everyone else had their click when I was just not part of it, but I still had to go to class every day. She asked me how do you want to solve this? And I was like just put me alone in the middle of the classroom. So that's what she did and I didn't know what I wanted to do.

Speaker 1:

I was working at the hospital at the time, which is like a 10,000 employee organization. It's a huge organization because in Norway healthcare is free, so it's a massive organization. So I was working on one of the clinical departments there, but I didn't get into like school. So I ended up just having two gap years where I was working at the hospital and during this time I just identified a problem. And this is where, like career badass Maggie comes into play, because that's where I just transitioned completely from this hopeless little child that needed so much love and didn't really have any friends and was really struggling to becoming I'm going to be a badass fucking businesswoman then, because that's what's up. So I don't really know how that all snowballed, but this started with me just noticing at this tax funded hospital that we were throwing a significant amount of food away every day and I just started logging it. So I was like keeping track of all of the portions that we were throwing away and calculating how much all of that would cost. And through a six month period I had written a paper and a report on this and I showed it to my mom because she happened to be my boss and I was like, like this is all the money that we've been throwing away on food like the past six months and it was like half a million and it was so much money in like Norwegian currency though

Speaker 1:

still a lot. Yeah, and I took that to. I called the finance director, or the finance like the head of finance at the hospital, and I was like, hey, I have these numbers for you. Like I see a potential of saving a lot of money at the hospital. Not only that, it's this environmental component of like saving the environment. And he was very interested and invited me over on a meeting the following Friday and I introduced it to him and I also told him that I knew how to solve the problem and he gave me a job on the spot and I ended up like helping save money for this tax funded hospital in Norway and we've been saving millions every year and it's still a project that is going on today that my mom took over when I moved to the US.

Speaker 1:

So that's pretty cool.

Speaker 1:

That's all like fun success story and what made me go into business when I went into business?

Speaker 1:

Because all of this kind of made me like see this entrepreneurial side of me and like where I'm when I really am passionate about something and I see a problem and I know how to fix it, like I really go for it.

Speaker 1:

And this was just such a classic example of that and it just snowballed into me having all of these presentations for like, really like important people on the highest board of the hospital and stuff, and I just really had a voice and there was a lot of important people, not only men like not only women, but a lot of men that listen to me, and it really made me believe that like my voice mattered and I just understood that if I can continue to stay passionate and go down that path and fix problems and know how to solve them, and if I can preach that and show that like I live what I preach, then that's going to make me a really good coach too. And that's what made me come into like the whole coaching world of all, like where I'm, really went on my own introspective journey so that I can know myself better, so that I could help other people influence themselves on their journey of finding themselves too, because I really do believe that true power comes from really understanding yourself and really knowing yourself.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, whether you like it or not, the way your senior year went, that was probably beneficial to you for some, and you were forced to be like that. You wouldn't have chosen to be in that situation. But one of the things we need to be as people is comfortable being alone, comfortable by ourselves. That doesn't mean we have to live that way. That doesn't mean we should just spend the rest of our lives being alone. No, of course not. But you can't rely on a partner to keep you sustained and happy. It's really your job to be self-sustaining and happy. And then you come together with a partner and you add to each other's lives. You can't expect that other person to fill a void. As you were saying when you were younger, obviously, what were you? Add to each other's lives. You can't expect that other person to fill a void. As you were saying when you were younger, obviously, what were you going to school for, by the way? What was your education?

Speaker 1:

So I ended up going to business school. So I had I started my bachelor's degree in Norway, I had a business school there, and then I did my. I was going to do an exchange here in the US, but I ended up doing an exchange year and a half. I was going to do an exchange year in the US, but I ended up doing an exchange year and a half because I loved it so much and following that one, that's when my whole like American dream started, right when I moved to the US in 2018 for that and had to come back for a semester to finish my bachelor's but then went back immediately to do my master's and have a master's in international business.

Speaker 2:

Okay, yeah. So if you're so focused on a boy or being in a relationship and making that your priority, you don't achieve these things you've achieved. You don't get to where you are in your career. As you are in your career Again, maybe not the way you would have chosen it, but it has worked out well, fair to say right.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely way you would have chosen it, but it has worked out well. Fair to say, right, Absolutely. And I really do not want it to come short that I don't appreciate absolutely everything. I am so grateful for my entire journey and I wouldn't have had it any other way. So all of this to say is that it shaped me and it's been painful when I was in it and I've been resentful at times, but overall, when I've come to forgiveness and I've let go of the past, then I am just left with complete and utter gratitude for the whole thing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, all right. So let's get into some other things that you do talk about on your podcast. Not because I want to embarrass you or shame you or anything like that at all, but I talked about committing suicide on your podcast, or attempting I should. I didn't obviously die because I'm here and just other things I've gone through in life. I've been divorced three times, which is no fun, but you've done some things in your past. That hindsight being 2020, you realize it may be at the time you did too, but you didn't care, I don't know. That's why I want to talk to you about it. You have been unfaithful, you have slept with a friend's ex-boyfriend, so I just want you to talk about those things, not in great detail, but just like how they shaped you, what you went through and what you learned from those things.

Speaker 1:

Actually, I'm actually grateful that you're bringing it up Because, to be honest with you, this is going to be the absolute first time I'm actually talking about it, because I really don't really go into details about this story, because there's nuances to it and the nuances are pretty simple there's my side of the story and then there's her side of the story.

Speaker 2:

Okay.

Speaker 1:

And it's and that's, and those two are simultaneously correct. You know what I mean. They're both. And the reason why I feel a hard, like having a hard time talking about it, is the fact that I have known this girl my whole life. I've known her for, yeah, my whole life, my whole life. I've known her 20 plus years and I love her and she loves me and we've had a great friendship and I really need to underscore a hundred times that this was never about her. A great friendship, and I really need to underscore 100 times that this was never about her. And I want I'll share the whole details in the story because I feel like it puts things in perspective. For sure, it certainly makes me look better, but I also want to honor the fact that I recognize that she is. It's so okay for her to be hurt by that whole situation, no matter how I am painting this picture.

Speaker 2:

You know what I mean, yeah.

Speaker 1:

And the saddest part about all of this is that we haven't spoken since then, so we still are not no longer friends, and like it was her birthday a few days ago and I am like I'm holding myself back from sending her a message because, of course, I want to text her a happy birthday and I hope you're having a great time, but she's made it clear that she doesn't want to have anything to do with me and I have to honor that.

Speaker 1:

And that hurts and that is the consequence of my actions that I have to own for the rest of my life. And so what happened there is that we grew up in a soccer community where I was playing soccer, she was playing soccer, we were playing on the same team and we were hanging out with the soccer guys a lot. Because we all grew up together, right, it was natural, and we would all spend a lot of time together. And there was a mutual friend of ours that she started dating in the fifth grade, which was like a short relationship but still pretty deep and like we were all we knew they were good together or whatever, but him and I were really good friends. And then at some point they broke up and life happened. But they found each other like years later, where they were dating, for I want to say they dated, for I think it was like five years maybe, and we, the three of us, were all spending a lot of time together and we've known each other for a really long time. And so there was a time where her and I were living together and there was a year where we were living together and so obviously, as they were dating, where they were spending a lot of time. He was spending a lot of time at the house, so obviously we all knew each other really well.

Speaker 1:

And then I would move to the US shortly after and obviously we all remained in contact and were friends. But I was gone for a year and a half and then I came home after that and they had, so at this point it's been I think they have been broken up for three years, I think, and I also believe that this was a mutual breakup. They had been, they would, just weren't it, they weren't going to be together anymore and it just was. It was, that was just. They just weren't going to be together for life. That was what it was. It just came to an end. They weren't that compatible. But, that being said, it was a clean split and I asked her if she was okay with me still being friends with him because he was still a dear friend of mine. Granted, I didn't have a lot of friends, so she was one and he was one that I had a great relationship with and she didn't mind that at all and that was because she trusted me like a trust that I broke and I'm going to be deeply sorry for that forever. But, that being said, yeah, it had been years since they broke up. She had been in several relationships since then and she was currently with someone else, or at least in and out with someone else, during the time where what kind of comes next happened, because we this was the before the pandemic started, so this is like 2020. And we're spending a lot of time together, him and I.

Speaker 1:

But it was strictly platonic. It was never really anything. It was all what it would had always been. It was supportive and it was conversational, very digging into, kind of like the bigger questions, and it was like we would hang out and make dinner, listen to music and just talk and that was pretty much it, and that was like maybe once a month or whatever, but it was still really good connections whenever we would meet.

Speaker 1:

And then it was like summer night, where it was beautiful weather, sundress kind of situation. It's like we're. It's like when it's summer in Norway it's so scarce because we we don't really have that many sunny days. So when it's like a sunny day, it's like a big deal. You go out and it's like a happy time. And that's what we did. We went out, we had a happy time, got drunk and one thing led to another, and then it was like you've done something you can never undo.

Speaker 1:

And yeah, it was, I don't really know how else to put it it was. It's one of those things where I just buried it immediately and pretended like that never happened and I was in so denial for a very long time. And the biggest problem with this story is that months later, like later, when I had moved back to the US, she confronted me about it. She was like I have a feeling and I just need to know and I'm going to ask you has something happened between you and him? And I lied when she asked me that question Because I had buried it so deep. I was in so denial that in my head at the time I was like I'm not dealing with this right now, I don't know how to confront this truth about me, so I'm just going to shove it so far down that I possibly can and the lie so hard. I believe it, and that was the biggest mistake. That was terrible.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

I was absolutely ridiculous and and, of course, a year later, two years later I remember it was when I was going down my complete path of redemption. Right, I had to admit to every lie that I've ever done. I had to tell everyone I've ever wronged, what I've done to wrong them. Like I went down this whole path of redemption, I was like I was going to be forgiven. Jesus was going to redeem me. There was no way around this. I was going to have to come clean about absolutely everything I've done wrong and telling her the truth was one of those things and rightfully, she didn't want to have anything to do with me after that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So Jesus will forgive you, but she doesn't have to Like you said, that's a consequence have to Like you said, that's a consequence you have to live with the rest of your life. And I had a very similar situation where not me personally I was more on your friend's end of the spectrum I was married. I was married to my first wife and we got divorced. And it was six years later after our divorce and I had a big college graduation party and I had my military friends coming from different parts of the US to come to my college graduation and I was super excited.

Speaker 2:

I felt very thankful that my friends were such good friends that they would travel states away just to come to my college graduation party.

Speaker 2:

But when I was in the military, the Air Force specifically I was married to her. So a lot of my friends actually all of them knew her and she also lived in the same city and one of my what I thought was one of my best friends stayed with her and it was supposed to be platonic, it's supposed to be a free place for him to stay. And one day he comes clean to me out of nowhere and he says look, I was staying with her. I didn't think anything of it. And then one day she was like I'm jumping in the shower, she just got naked in front of me and was like, are you going to come with me? And then he's. So I went and it happened and I respected. He came clean and told me, but at the same time he's not my friend anymore, because I would never do that to a friend of mine and also as someone who has never drank in his life. I have never given anyone an out because they said I did it because I was drunk.

Speaker 1:

Oh, no, for sure.

Speaker 2:

To me. I don't care if you're drunk, sober, whatever. If you do it, you're accountable, You're responsible for it.

Speaker 1:

I think the nuance to that story. Can I challenge it a little bit?

Speaker 2:

Sure.

Speaker 1:

Challenge it necessarily just offer a perspective, because this is where my defense mechanism comes into play. Right, where I feel like I want to say simultaneously what I believe about the whole rules around it. All right Because the.

Speaker 2:

Thing is.

Speaker 1:

There's definitely a universe in which I am acknowledging everything in the sense that, like how she feels, but I also understand, like where I came from, in the sense that this is someone that I know, this is someone that I trust, and for me to be able to share myself, like sexually, with someone that I feel safe with, that isn't so crazy, that isn't so unheard of. I think that is the rules in and around, like that. It's a bro code or whatever you call it.

Speaker 2:

Right, yeah, yes, when guy code or chick code, whatever. Yeah, whatever you call it.

Speaker 1:

I definitely believe that there there's the nitty-gritty.

Speaker 1:

Okay, sorry this part you're gonna have to cut out, where I'm just like not even knowing how much to say, but my point is is that there is a universe in which I also believe that there wasn't necessarily anything that I did that was wrong in this situation.

Speaker 1:

Granted that, like, they have been broken up, it was a long time ago, they weren't planning on getting back together and she wasn't in love with him, but the point is still the fact that she did get hurt, and as long as she got hurt by someone she deems close to her, then it doesn't matter what my intentions were, what I believe about the situation, but there's definitely a universe in which I would have loved to have seen that situation been forgiving, in the sense that the act itself wasn't like a terrible thing to do to someone. It wasn't to her, it wasn't about her. She just happens to be someone that, like, was with this person prior, but they weren't hanging out together anymore, yeah, but I'm going to cut you off and I'm going to say I genuinely feel like that is your rational defense mechanism.

Speaker 2:

You've been friends with this girl a long time, very good friends right. So to her, you're someone she loves and trusts, and you broke a trust that's how she feels about it and it's her feelings and you broke that trust by being with someone that she used to love and care about and in her world, that's a line you don't cross. Maybe it's not in your world, but in her world it is so for her, it's a deeply personal pain that you caused and, like I understand, you're giving your point of view, because maybe you don't feel exactly the same way, but she does, and that's what. That's what matters, that's why things are the way they are, because of how she feels about I.

Speaker 1:

I don't think I'm taking away from that either.

Speaker 2:

I think I'm saying exactly that it is, it's okay for her to feel, exactly, cause what I'm saying is that, as long as she was hurt, no matter what it is it doesn't matter what my intentions were no, and it's one of those things I try to tell people all the time like you can be, you can be, you can be right in a situation, but it doesn't matter if the other person feels wronged whether you're right or not, and then they cut off whatever with you.

Speaker 2:

I don't care if it's a relationship, a friendship, a marriage, it's. It ended, no matter what, whether you think you're right or not. It's over. And that's the part that people have to consider and people have to understand. Not just you in this situation, but all situations, right, Because people, myself included you we tend to take the morally high ground. Oh, I was the right person in that situation. Okay, yeah, but who won in the end? Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1:

Nobody, because at the end of the day, like the way that I'm, the way that I, the only way that I can view the situation today is that there's two truths here. One truth is that when we were still friends and I was carrying the lie, it was miserable for me, it wasn't a good relationship anymore. So and I could feel that, and I'm sure she could too and that elephant in a room was identified, there was a lift, there was a weight lifted off there and I'm sure I felt extremely relieved after admitting to it and getting putting off the ground, getting out there, cats out the bag, and I'm sure she felt relieved and validated that she wasn't crazy and I had met, led her to believe that she was years prior when I denied her.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, which also felt a sense of relief and a sense of completion there and I also think that we had come to a place in our friendship here where we were like we grew up together and we had a fantastic run, but we grew apart and I'd made that decision when I made the decision, because I was ready to walk away from that dynamic and I think we both know that our time was past.

Speaker 2:

Well, friendships, friendships come and go. Take it from a 52-year-old man. I have, I would say, three good friends in my life that I would really call a good friend, and they're not childhood relationships, they're not people that I've known since I won. Yeah, we actually joined the Air Force at the same time, at 17. And we met in the Air Force I was 17. He was 18. And we still have a friendship today and I'm actually going to interview him on my podcast at some point, because he was in the Army infantry, he went to war in Iraq and he saw really frontline stuff that I want the world to hear about.

Speaker 2:

But anyway, everyone defines what is their own personal barrier. Their own personal space is. That is a line that you can't cross. I'm willing to bet my buddy Dan didn't think when he told me that he had sex with my ex-wife, that I was even going to care, that he probably thought that relationship's been over for six years and I left her, I divorced her and he's probably I'll just tell him about it, get it off my conscious and that'll be the end. But no, for me that was a betrayal and our relationship effectively ended. This was 20 years ago. I haven't talked to him since and I'm okay with that because that's my boundary I set that boundary. But let's get past all this. We're past all that.

Speaker 1:

I just wanted people to know some of the stuff you've gone through and it's important to bring up right, Because it's just because you're on this healing journey and you find yourself on the other side of it pretty sufficient as a human being and someone that you're proud of and someone that you are okay with representing to the world. But from that story came a pretty bad person. There came so many mistakes. There's so many unforgivable actions and stuff that I've had to forgive.

Speaker 1:

That's been really hard, like I've had to ask for grace, I've had to ask for mercy from God for a lot of the things that I've done, and I want to lead lead with honesty and I share about these things, not because I want to normalize or make it okay, but it because about it's all about taking accountability and just because we feel really strongly and we have an ego that we want to support dearly.

Speaker 1:

Sometimes like it is really important to take yourself out of the situation and recognize that, no matter how you like meant for this to go, you hurt someone significantly and now you have to deal with the consequences of that, and that is true for a lot of people, and I think the most important thing you can do in situations like this is look yourself in the mirror and be honest about who you are and be honest with the world about who you are, Because when you lead with truth and authenticity, you attract the best things in life, and I believe that wholeheartedly and I have seen it happen in real time. So the more I let go and the more I allow myself to be wholeheartedly who I am with truth, then I know that I can't really lose and that is also a powerful place.

Speaker 2:

Well, the only way to grow is to be challenged. That's the truth, and so we want to grow, not only in our professional lives and financially, but we want to grow as to me, even more importantly, frankly and honestly is individually on how you are as a person and how you do in a professional life, but to each their own. So we need to grow in different facets in life, and so I wanted to really hone in on for I guess, part two of this podcast, your episode 14 of men. I don't understand you. I love that episode. I've actually listened to it three times. Three times I've listened to that same episode.

Speaker 1:

So it's six minutes long.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, it's short. We start off unequivocally men, I don't understand you, but I want to and it's a great start. It's an attention grabber and so you did really well with that one. One of the things you talk about is as great as your childhood was and as close as you were to your mother and all that stuff is, you didn't learn what it takes to be chosen by men Like I see that you're a confident, competent, intelligent woman who knows you have a lot going for you, but you just can't quite figure out why relationships aren't working out for you. So, just since you've recorded that podcast, do you feel any differently about some of the stuff you discussed, like how to be chosen by men, for example?

Speaker 1:

I do feel differently about it. I don't remember exactly everything I've said in that episode, because a lot of it is just me saying stuff that I'm feeling in the moment.

Speaker 2:

I'll bring some of it up, don't worry.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I'm curious if there's. Maybe there might be some things. I don't know, but what I do know is that I guess, overall, what my view is a little bit more now than ever, is just it's a complete surrender. I'm not really looking, I'm not really trying, so it's not really so much about seeking and finding as much anymore as it it's becoming and releasing and therefore attract. So I just feel way more at peace with it. And this was also written during a time when I was going through a breakup, so it's also a part of me venting about what are some of the questions that are going through my mind when I feel really vulnerable and hurt by men. So it is also a result of that. So now that I'm out of that, like over that, of course there's a lot of these questions that are still valid and a lot of people can probably relate to these questions in many ways, and I still meant everything that I said probably.

Speaker 2:

But all right, let's get into some of that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, let's go into it yeah.

Speaker 2:

Let's just start with video games. You don't understand why men love video games and why men will put you know so much time and effort into video games.

Speaker 1:

That's not what I'm saying. That's not. No, I don't. That's not what I'm saying. So I under. I think I understand why they love it, like I understand that it's an escape, it's addictive, it's also fun, it's also that sense of accomplishment. I know like when I'm playing games myself, there's always this there's a rush of getting to the next level, completing a level and also like expanding, getting better and also just disappearing into another world a little bit. I understand that fully. When it comes to wanting and having that desire, I guess I think you're missing some key parts of that though okay, share them with me.

Speaker 1:

What are the key parts that I'm missing?

Speaker 2:

okay. So what men love is clarity and rules. What men love is knowing. If I do this, I get this outcome right, and what men don't get with women is that right. So maybe someday a man can bring a woman flowers, for example, and she loves it and she treats him amazing and it's a great day, right. And then another time he brings her flowers again because he remembers that phenomenal experience the last time he brought her flowers again, because he remembers that phenomenal experience the last time he brought her flowers and she's just having a bad day, right. So the experience is not the same at all. She ignores the fact that she even got flowers and all thanks, whatever. I got bigger problems and it turns out not to be a great day. That kind of stuff spins men's heads around because we're like wait a minute, we gave you flowers and we got this, and then this time we gave you flowers and we got this. That makes no sense to us, do you understand?

Speaker 1:

one was one didn't equal one.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, exactly right well, in video games, if I do this, if I shoot this guy in the head, or I do this, that guy dies. I know exactly what I'm getting. I'm getting the ball, yeah, yeah women are unpredictable.

Speaker 1:

You are that. That is true. I'm so happy we're having this conversation because there's not, there's a dual component to I don't understand you, but you don't necessarily understand me either. Say, hey, this is good, now we know, now we can figure this out. This is amazing. And because that is true, I think the biggest superpower to have as a man in a relationship with the woman is to know her cycle. When you know her cycle, you have an, you have, you have an upper hand, because now you know when she's going to be grumpy and you know when she's going to be horny. And that is an advantage, my friend.

Speaker 2:

I'll show you, I'll send you a link, because this link is I know, I know my wife's cycle don't worry, I know fantastic.

Speaker 1:

Love to hear it I understand point being is that, like knowing a woman's cycle is going to give you some. Give them, and not you, but a man, it's going to give them some upper hand. Anyone dating with a woman, I would figure out her cycle and figure out what the cycle days means, because it's a superpower.

Speaker 2:

I think communication itself is just super important and everyone says that. Right. But what does that mean? You have to break down. What does communication mean? It's all inclusive, it's everything. Even my wife and I I'm not perfect. I have bad days, she has bad days. We have this agreement Not that we ever maybe we talked about it in the beginning, I'm not sure but we just straight up to the say, say to each other I'm having a bad day today, I'm feeling grumpy, and that is like our sign All right back off, don't, don't get into anything too difficult or heavy and don't push any buttons or push the limit on anything because the other.

Speaker 2:

As a matter of fact, I think we actually go the opposite direction. So if I'm having a bad day, I think she really does a good job at trying to make me feel better, and when she says I'm having she's having a bad day, I try to do the same for her. So that kind of communication is very important, but I didn't grow up with that her. So that kind of communication is very important, but I didn't grow up with that. I had a mother that I used to joke on my way home from school. I wonder which mom I'm getting today? Am I getting the kind, loving, yeah, do what you want. Type of mom? Or are I getting the woman that bitches at me as soon as I walk in the door and makes me feel like I'm a piece of shit and I did nothing? It's just whatever mood she's in.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I hear you.

Speaker 2:

So I grew up with that and that's what men are afraid of. Here's some other stuff I wanted to share with you. So if I told you, if I said, hey, mags, we're going to go to this casino, we're in this casino, here's this table you can bet at right here and you have a 90% chance of winning 90%. The only catch is you have to bet everything you own and you get that back tenfold. If you bet everything, you're on with a 90% chance of win. Are you going to make that bet?

Speaker 2:

No no, but most people will. Most people will. But if I take you over to another table and I say now you have a 30% chance to win, but the only thing you can do is bet everything you have, are you going to make that bet? That absolutely not. So why am I making this comparison, you might ask. So this is where I want to really challenge your thinking. All right, so not everyone's as brave or dumb as I am, however you want to look at it.

Speaker 2:

So, when a man and woman gets married and they make that commitment, it's a 90% win for a woman in America. More specifically, because the way divorce laws work and the way life works in America and that is you guys can get in this marriage, you can build this life together, you can have these beautiful kids together. And then, if it and then let's just say I'm talking about good men here, good high quality men let's just say you become a bossy, potentially bitchy wife that wants to be in control, wants everything her way. A man's going to stay there, he's going to put up with that he's. He may not necessarily be happy, but he's going to deal with it for the good of his family, cause he wants his family to be together and life goes on that way for a few years.

Speaker 2:

He's not necessarily happy, but he doesn't want to lose his family. And then the wife gets tired of his unhappiness or whatever, and she decides I don't want to do this anymore, I'm out, this is over. Okay, when that ends? Now this man has lost his children, he's lost his wife, he's lost his home. He's probably lost virtually everything in that home the furniture, everything that goes inside the home and he has to start all over again, whereas the woman yeah, she lost her husband, but she maintains everything else and more than what she came into the marriage with. So I think that's probably why you can't understand why it's so difficult for men to commit to marriage.

Speaker 1:

First of all, I'm happy you bring it up because this is a very cultural thing and which is reason number one why I'm leaving the US.

Speaker 2:

I didn't tell you this. I didn't tell you. No, you didn't. No, I am leaving. I'm moving back to Norway. Yeah, I'm moving back to Norway.

Speaker 1:

And it is because I want to settle down. That is the reason why I want to go back, because it's safe there in the sense that we have free healthcare, free education and definitely an infrastructure that supports marriage differently. For sure, it's completely different, and that is one of the main reasons why I want to leave. But you bring up a really important point here, and my I think my second point here is that I don't know what's going to happen. Nobody knows, you don't know, I don't know, when it comes to whoever like I'll meet or you'll meet, or whoever my neighbor is going to be. Point being is that we don't know what's going to happen.

Speaker 1:

I think we all put an ideal and a wish and a desire as to what is our intention like when getting married and wanting to build a life with someone. I think most people initially had a desire to stay married and not get divorced. I think that has been most people's intentions when that happened, and that is my intention too. My intention is that getting married is honorable and that is a commitment that you don't break. My intention is to go into that marriage saying that divorce is a non-negotiable. It's not going to happen. That is what I would like to say that is what I would opt in for and that would be what I would want.

Speaker 2:

I would want to you know that I heard that same thing from my third wife, that she promised me before we got married there would be no such thing as divorce.

Speaker 1:

And yet, 12 years later, she divorced me yeah, I'm terribly sorry to hear that and it makes me so concerned and worried because I really do believe that hard that people mention. When they say that it's hard like that. Marriage is a commitment where marriage is for work. Marriage is hard when people say that. I think people are surprised when the hard comes, because there's there's certainly so many elements to making a decision. When you're happy and you're experiencing the joy of it all, when you're, when you're experiencing being love, you don't, you haven't experienced what it's like to be with the partner, when most people leave their partner, and that's the stage to overcome. The stage to overcome is when you the intangible thing.

Speaker 1:

You don't know what's coming, but it's where most people leave their relationship where they leave their partner. That's the thing that you have to face when they leave their partner. That's the thing that you have to face, sit in and overcome, and that is not an easy task to do and it's also a hard thing to ask from someone. The only thing I can do is pray and hope and ask for God's guidance throughout my life when it comes to this, because I definitely have an intention of being able to problem solve and to be able to lead a fruitful life in truth, even no matter what, how painful that truth can be sometime and I don't know if I'm going to be fully successful in marriage, but that is definitely what I want. That is my intention. I don't want to get a divorce. I really hope that I'm able to lead by example there, because I want to honor the commitment, but I don't know what's going to happen and it would be very naive and nobody knows.

Speaker 2:

That's what claim anything else? That's what's scary I understand that.

Speaker 1:

It's easy, it's super easy for me to say this when I am outside of it and it's very easy for you to have a different perspective in a different situation it's easy for you to say it because?

Speaker 2:

because, as scary as it is for both sides, in the end if it doesn't work, men pay for it the most. It's just a fact. It's just the as it is for both sides. In the end, if it doesn't work, men pay for it the most. It's just a fact. It's just the way it is.

Speaker 1:

Monetary pay for it, you mean.

Speaker 2:

In every way. I have three sons that I have not gotten to be a full-time or even 50% time father to them, Honestly to me.

Speaker 1:

I'm sorry to cut you off there, but I realize I didn't acknowledge this part of your story when you're mentioning this now, because what it sounds to be a major component here too is that you seem to have been very unfortunate in the sense that you've been dealing with women that hasn't been easy to deal with. They seem to be irresponsible and unreasonable in their approach of keeping you from their children because that's hurting their children and it's egocentrical and possessive and I'm not going to say no to that.

Speaker 2:

I am unfortunate in that. But that's what I'm saying. We don't know. I didn't know that my third wife that I had two kids with would behave the way that she's behaving with my kids since we've been divorced. I had no clue going into that marriage she would ever be that way. As a matter of fact, she promised me we would never be divorced, that I would always be there to raise my kids, because that wouldn't happen. But here's the parts I need you to understand, and it's not just about my life.

Speaker 2:

So we know 50% of heterosexual marriages and in divorce this is in the U S I'm speaking specifically America and of those 50%, 70% of those are filed by women. So 70% of women initiate the divorce. That's just total. Now that figure jumps up to 90% if the woman is college educated. So 90% of the divorces where the woman are college educated, the woman files for the divorce. So those are just the facts that cannot be debated. And so typically men end up not getting control of the children. Even though I got 50-50 custody, she got all the rights to making their health care decisions, their school decisions, all the important stuff. I literally was just not allowed to do anything because I'm the man and men are aware of all of this. Men are I empathize with that.

Speaker 1:

I empathize with that a lot. I think that's terrible. I think that's really. It's really sad and I understand that's scary. I've had, like I've shared with you earlier, I have a friend group with a bunch of guys that I do fantasy football with and stuff, which is really cool, but a lot they've told me about all of these components too. It's scary with marriage today, especially in the US, and with the monetary and but all of the factors that come into it, the risk with it.

Speaker 1:

I understand that component fully and I understand that women partake in. Why the? Because I really wanted to come. Like when I'm saying, men, I don't understand what you, but I want to. It's not coming from a place of I blame you for why it is what it is. I don't blame you at all. Women play a massive role in why dating is so hard today, because women play a huge part in normalizing the fleeting sexualities and the fleeting relationship with something that is supposed to be so meaningful between partners to. The casualty around sex is something that is supposed to be so meaningful between partners to. To the casualty around sex is something that women are thriving in right now, which not actually thriving. They have this. They're doing it and they're partaking in it, but they're making it harder for the rest of us. It's a very strong opinion, and I'll try to phrase that differently because I know exactly what you're saying.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, but I want to come across right. Because here's the thing I have been a part of that statistics which is why I'm saying that it's coming from a place of also knowing what that does to you strictly hormonally and how you feel about yourself as a result of acting upon that. It's not healthy. I know it's not coming from a healthy place. It's coming from a really broken place and I know this because I was broken and I also know by research that Sajak Khan shares no-transcript aren't aware of this in themselves, might still be acting on it, but they're hurting and it's hurting the whole dating picture. So I know that women also take a huge part in why dating is hard in the society and why, like why men also struggle to trust women because their pool is too big and they all are in situationships and that's tough.

Speaker 2:

That's hard to deal with, but it's as long as casual sex is available there's, that's really going to hurt men's desire to commit First of all, second of all a man has to be really comfortable with you and believe in you to take that leap like a whole nother level, like they've never experienced before.

Speaker 1:

That's why I don't have sexist on a table, sexist and on a table until I'm committed, like with my last partner, we were in a relationship when we had sex for the first time.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and that helps for sure, because I've had several one night stands or hookups with women. I should say that I met him right away and I'm not saying it was the last time we ever hooked up. We probably hooked up more after that in some cases, but I knew it wasn't ever going to be anything serious for me because she gave it up so easily and I and I always believe if she gives it up so easily to me, she'll give it up easily to anyone. I'm not that special.

Speaker 1:

It's about integrity at the end of the day and self-respect, and that's what I look at it as that special. It's about integrity at the end of the day and self-respect and that's what I look at it as I look at keeping yourself not necessarily for marriage. I'm not going to drag it that far. Like that would be very like that would be very biased.

Speaker 2:

It would be very hypocritical.

Speaker 1:

But my point is that I still do believe that, the longer that women can wait to give it up, it gives them leverage. It gives them time to get to know someone truly for what their intentions are, Because the moment you give it up like you can't walk away from it. If they disappear and they do so rightfully, unfortunately and that's happened to me many times Like I didn't have integrity or self respect In that sense, I thought that my value was determined by who I could get it with, and that's terrible, terrible place to be.

Speaker 2:

It's not just for that relationship either. Men need to understand that's who you are in general, right, not that? Oh, I used to hook up with guys in the past, but now I'm going to make you wait four, five, six months to get it. That, to them, is hypocritical. That, to them, is why are you giving it up to everyone else so easily and you're making me wait? What it needs to be is known. That is who you are now. You're not that person you were in the past anymore. You're not someone that could be on a business trip with a guy and something could happen instantly, because that's who you really are.

Speaker 1:

Those are important for men, for commitment and caught a thought there while you remember, because I actually realized like a little bit of like parallels as we're talking about this too because this level of awareness that I have around sexuality and like when to give it up, and this kind of that, the maturity that comes with like sex and self-respect that I have now, I didn't have that until recently. Like that came pretty late for me, meaning that like during that whole time when I ended up sleeping with my friend that I talked about earlier in episode, that was actually the first time, because I remember this awareness journey for me started a little bit prior to that happening, meaning that it was the first time I decided to like really be on an extended period of time without any sex and be by myself and just really focus on doing that with someone that you know that you care about and you trust and you feel safe with. That was like my goal being in a committed relationship and heading in that direction was pretty much where I was headed and that was the goal. So when I had this moment where your guards are down, when I was with someone that I did feel safe with, then it was easier to give it up in that situation, but it was still a bad pattern of mine. It was like it was still.

Speaker 1:

I still wasn't going to give it up here, because, in this situation too, I didn't think that I was going to end up dating this person. That wasn't my intention at all, so it was still like away from who I wanted to be, which was, honestly, the biggest betrayal to myself. So there's so many components of shame that comes into this entire story, because it's not like I just lost her as a friend, like everyone that I know around, that I don't talk to anyone, and that's people that I've known my whole life and grew up with. I lost everything. I lost everyone, yeah. So that's a it's a long story and all of that comes from all of that wound that started when I was a really young child, because my relationship with sex was just damaged and it didn't occur to me how much it hurt other people until that situation and until it was too late.

Speaker 2:

Two other points I want to bring up. I just remembered one. So one is we live in a social media world now and, as a man who gets on social media, when I see women's posts, I see a lot of man hating, a lot of man hating, shitting on men talking about how independent women are, how they don't need us, and it's hard. I would imagine, as a young man, how hard it would be to understand what it means to be a man, because men are getting shit on by women in social media so much now, and it's creating a divisiveness between men and women that shouldn't exist. So that's sad.

Speaker 2:

Number two what I wanted to tell you was, statistically, the longest lasting relationships, the ones that last and make it, are people that actually meet on the internet. And now I don't mean you're in San Francisco, there's a guy in San Francisco you met on Tinder and now you guys know each other from the internet. No, you live in San Francisco, you meet a guy in I don't know Colorado, for example, and the majority of your relationship is actually not touching or affection or sexual at all. It's literally just the two of you talking and getting to know each other and really understanding each other. Those are the most successful relationships.

Speaker 1:

That's really interesting and I agree with you on that first point where you brought up where it's really sad to see how it's become divided. And that is where my concern comes from, because I really hope it shines through that I have a lot of compassion for men. I care about men deeply and I really do want men to come up and forward more, because I understand that it is damaging to men too and it has its consequence. That women have taken is taken up as much space as they are in many instances, although of course I am supportive of it to some extent. I do think it's important to recognize that. But what is it doing to our community as a whole? Is it helpful or is it hurtful because we were all creating?

Speaker 2:

always hurtful.

Speaker 1:

Negativity is hurtful period always it's not helpful so, yes, no, I mean yes, of course, with the negative comments and stuff is what I mean. But when I'm thinking about, I understand that whole kind of the feminist role of bringing women up and forward. That was good intentions and I understand that. But we also have to reflect on, like when, like to see what is the consequences of it. Is it all positive? Because it's, some of it is, of course, a lot of the.

Speaker 1:

A lot of it is positive but, some of it is also harmful and we need to be able to look at that and be objective to it and not so emotionally and subjective to it Just because I'm a woman. I also want to see how this impacts men, because it is important to see that as well, and I empathize with men deeply and I really want us all to co-exist and be in harmony with one another in harmony with one another, and that is why I want to understand and that is also why I share as much as I do about my stories and my development and how it all came to be for me, because I hope more people can share their experiences and their stories and therefore we'll all get to know ourselves better, but we also get to know each other better. So that is my whole hope for all of it, because I do want to bridge the gap between men and women, because I don't like that we're so divided.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I think one of the ways to do that is women have to stop supporting women who talk negatively about men. But the problem is, you see women get on there and make a post about how we don't need a man. We can do it all. We could pay our bills this, that and the other and then you see a hundred thousand likes.

Speaker 1:

So as long as that happens, that divisiveness is going to happen I don't have any of that in my algorithm so fortunately I don't see it, but it's I. But that is concerning to know that there's so many people because I know that I need a man, I want a man and I want to need a man too. I actually had this conversation with my best friend that I mentioned sometime, james. Like he was talking about how some of his kind of like pet peeves and struggles of her husband went with the neediness and girls needing to be needy and needing a man to come save them. Like how that's been like in a pet peeve, which I explained as well.

Speaker 1:

It's actually just avoidance, but the point is that, like women love to be saved and need to feel needy. That is just a part of we want to feel safe. We want you to provide for us. That's a whole. That's the whole point. That is like the whole nature of it. And to shun that away and to think that's negative or bad or in that makes us any less independent or it makes us like inherently codependent, it's not so much about that. We can definitely be independent in many ways and do a lot of stuff, but we're not going to want to stop, want to feel like we need you. We want to feel like we need you. It's actually supposed to be a very positive and great thing and not so something to be afraid of, at least.

Speaker 2:

But yeah, I'll give you a perfect example. Right, my wife is. She calls herself a quote unquote feminist. She's not a man hater by any sense of the word. She's going to college to get her jurist doctorate right. Does she need me? No, she doesn't need me. But do I have rules that are part of the relationship that I must have, that are deal breakers for me, that she abides by? Yes. Do I need her? No. Does she have rules that I abide by? Yes. So even if we don't quote unquote need each other, we still have to respect each other and understand that everyone has this space that you need to live in and you got to respect that space and you got to be willing to make compromises, to be in that space with someone, and I think that's a lot of people can't do that. I have three sons. One's 27, one's going to be 18. I don't think they're wired to do what I just said.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I definitely hope that can change, that there's a day that that can open up for awareness for them too as well, because otherwise they would be doomed.

Speaker 1:

But I certainly hope that might change with the years. But of course, what they're exposed to and the stories that they're being fed with is going to impact how they view and see the world, and that's true for all of us. We're all impacted by what we've been exposed to see the world, and that's true for all of us. We're all impacted by what we've been exposed to and that is going to shape us inevitably. And there might come a day where we understand that and can act upon that and make that story look differently, because we take control and action of our own lives. But some people miss out on that opportunity entirely, and I don't even know what that looks like. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Honestly, I would recommend meeting someone over the internet that you don't live in the same city with Hell. If you're going to move back to Norway, I would start now. I would try to meet someone back in Norway now, before you get there, so you guys can get to know each other before you arrive. That's just my. I met my wife that way. She lived in Brazil, she's from Brazil. I met her on the internet and we had to wait almost a year to actually be together and it's by far the best relationship I've ever had. I was just throwing that out there for you to help you in the statistic support. That's true, and when I read that and I saw that, I was like, yeah, totally makes sense, totally makes sense.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think that's beautiful. I definitely hope I would love. I think the best case scenario is I meet someone in church and that would be beautiful, so I'm not really stressing about it. To be honest, it'll be when it be, at the time, when the time is right. I'm not tripping.

Speaker 2:

That's good. That's good. I'm glad to hear that because I know you want that, and it's always great when someone wants to be in a committed, loving marriage and they want to have a family together and they want to grow, and I want to help people who want that. That's the thing right. So that's why I want to see that happen for you.

Speaker 1:

Thank you. I really appreciate that. I feel hopeful. I definitely do. I have my faith and that helps me tremendously in everything that I do in life. So that is going to be my forever greatest support and I trust God. I really do. I trust the process, and I think this piece is coming from a place of knowing that God has come through for me time and time again, so I know he will this time too.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you're right, if he, he will. Like everyone always says, it's on his time, not yours, so my biggest frustration.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, all of our biggest frustrations. Yeah, I turned to him too when I was struggling with some unemployment issue and I was unemployed for a while and I tried to work as a consultant and then COVID hit and obviously it was impossible to be in business for yourself as a consultant when COVID was going on, but yeah, I was. That's the time. I kept looking at God and, come on, I know this is on your schedule, but you're making this really hard for me. You do have some different takes and different points of view since some of your podcasts that I heard. So I don't, I had some questions about some of that stuff, but your perspective is a little different now.

Speaker 1:

What was it about? I'm curious.

Speaker 2:

I don't. You had some stuff about what I have here. I was going to ask you about what type of man you're choosing, but you have a different approach now. Because I don't know if you know this too one of the statistics also of the most successful relationships is when the woman is the more attractive one in the partnership. That the man is less attractive and the woman is more attractive. It just is the truth.

Speaker 1:

I'm looking like. I'm like so naive, I'm like thinking back on my relationship. I was like I'm pretty sure I was the most attractive one actually like an idiot yeah, no, don't look, you have to be I was joking, I was.

Speaker 2:

I saw one of your ex-boyfriends on instagram that you were with. I don't know if it was like your summer romance or whatever. That's a pretty good looking dude.

Speaker 1:

I thought I had deleted those photos.

Speaker 2:

Oh, this was like a month ago or so, I don't know. Maybe you did, but oh, maybe it was.

Speaker 1:

Let me see, was it when I was in Greece? Maybe?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's what I said. I think it was your Greece relationship.

Speaker 1:

No, yeah, he's a good looking guy. Yeah yeah, so.

Speaker 2:

I was like is she picking pretty boys? Because if she's picking pretty boys, that might be part of the problem.

Speaker 1:

The story with him is actually quite beautiful in that sense, because it just it was one of the things that I did. All of that, this whole situation has been dealt with the most. It's been dealt with like that, from the way that it started to the way that it ended. It's been so graceful, like when he came into my life we we were both living, living in greece and working together, so it wasn't we met at work. He slid into my dms, although we were in the same office and we're chatting there, but it wasn't like flirty to begin with. I guess in retrospect I guess it was, but it didn't feel so at the time because I wasn't looking at all yeah so we spent a lot of time together that's how we get you by

Speaker 2:

the way is if we can make it look like hey, we're not hitting on you, we're just trying to be your friend. Yeah, that's what we're really going for, because then because when we come at you and you're being hit on, you got this guard right away. But if all this is just a friend, this is chill as it goes and it just that wall just drops and that's best for us as men. So if we can get you to believe we're coming at you like that, that works best for us.

Speaker 1:

I guess it was more cynical. If I look at it, my story is very beautiful. My perspective, the narrative.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

But yeah, no, because it took us a very long time. But what ended up happening in that dynamic, which surprised me and took me so completely off guard at the time, was, I think we've been hanging out probably like every day for a month at this point. But he was younger than me, so I didn't even consider it and also I knew I was going to move back to the US, so it was it's no point. And then he had spent a night, one night like we had never had sex or seen each other naked or we were kissed or even kissed. At this point it was like no, nothing.

Speaker 1:

But he had spent the night and he told me, like in the morning that like, or was it at the night, I can't remember but he told me like either we have to take it to the next level or we have to stop seeing each other, because I have feelings for you now, and it just came out of the blue for me. I was so shocked in that moment and and in that moment I was actually like I guess we're just gonna stop hanging out then, because what's the next step even gonna look like for us? What do you mean? Next step?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, because you're a commitment relationship person.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so it didn't really make any sense. And that's when we had one day where it was just completely miserable at work for both of us because it was just such a void that was needed to be filled because we didn't have each other there, yeah, and that's kind of when I noticed that, oh shit, I'm actually becoming very like dependent on this person in that sense that, like he is actually contributing to a lot of my joy and stability on the island. I didn't really realize, and that's when we just decided to take it incredibly slow and we did, and it was beautiful. It was the best summer of my life, we had such a great time and we tried the long distance and had an intention of making it. But the truth of the matter is he's young and he doesn't want to get married and get committed and have children right now. He just wants to be younger, and that's fine and I know what I want.

Speaker 2:

So it's just one of those things where we naturally have to walk in different directions and that's okay, it's no, and that's something you definitely have to work out before you get into the relationship in the future, because you don't want to think everything's going cool. Then you're hooking up and you're in something that you're trying to grow and the other guys wait a minute. I was just here for now. I wasn't here for forever.

Speaker 1:

All right, that agreement? What agreement? Like I told him right when we were like were like gonna take it slow. I was like I'm gonna get married and have kids and I want it to happen in x years. That's the path that I'm walking down and that is the path that he chose to walk on. But at some point he changed his mind and that's okay. I understand that. He got caught up in the in love of it all and at the time thought that he wanted that. But I also understand how his mind shifted because I saw it happen and that's okay.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, it was beautiful all right grateful as long as you feel good about it. I was just using him as the example of, because that's the one kind of guy I saw you with in anything. Oh, she's just going for these pretty boy types of guys. Maybe that's the problem. Yeah, no, it's no problem. What do you want to leave people with?

Speaker 1:

Stay curious and get to know yourself better. That's it. I want people to stay curious. I want them to continue to learn, not only about yourself but about other people, and try to lead with love and truth. Try to get as close to the truth as humanly possible because you'll be so much better for it. And sometimes the truth hurts and it's painful and it's humbling and we have to really take a hard look in the mirror and acknowledge some painful stuff about ourself. But the moment you choose to walk down that path, you are on a path to liberty and it's so freeing and it's so powerful to be in that place. So stay curious and get to know yourself better.

Speaker 2:

Yep, I agree with that. Also, I would say I used to volunteer in old folks home and almost every old person to a man or woman. I asked him this question what's the biggest lesson you learned in life? They didn't know each other. They weren't all in a group telling me this. This was me individually, in each of their rooms, and almost all of them said it's.

Speaker 2:

I don't regret the things that I did do in life. I regret the things I didn't do. So that has stuck with me for a long time. I was like 18 years old when this was told to me and I've always had that thought in my mind. Okay, I don't want to regret the things that I didn't do. I don't want to regret the things that I didn't do, but sometimes that caused me to do things I shouldn't have done. So what I would warn people is think about your actions and the consequences they're going to have when you complete those actions. That's my biggest thought of the day is just think it through, think it through, think through what's going to happen if you proceed with this action and are you okay with that outcome? So that's what I would say.

Speaker 1:

Mom always said that what is the worst thing that can happen? And if you can live with what the worst thing that can happen is, then you're probably going to be fine.

Speaker 2:

A lot of people live in the moment, though, especially, let's just even say sexually right. Your juices get flowing, you start getting horny, and then you forget what could happen if this goes down right let's, let's be real that's what happens. It happens to both men and women. I'm not saying it's one sex or the other, I'm just saying it happens to either.

Speaker 1:

So you really think your actions through and pay attention to the female cycle and you'll know exactly what's around there and communicate my friends are picking up on it, like my friend now is oh, it's horny, maggie yeah, some women get offended by that.

Speaker 2:

If I don't know, I don't know I don't know, I mean leverage, it's leverage some truly believe it doesn't change who they are.

Speaker 2:

That's the problem is. It's the, the fact that it's not consistent, the inconsistencyency. So anyway, I want to thank you, mags, for being here Again. I'll plug it again Becoming Secure with Mags Mindset. It's a great podcast. She really takes the time to think out what she's going to say before she says it, and I see now why my little rambling friend. Now, why my little rambling friend. Once you get going, you're like a train. It's cool. So listen to it. They're great. I enjoyed every episode. Do that and, for me, go to Brandon hellcom and subscribe to my podcast. I do a couple podcasts a month that are available only to subscribers, and it's only 10 bucks a month. What's 10 bucks? It's nothing. Come on, 10 bucks a month, you can do it. And follow me on Instagram. Bh underscore life is crazy. Mags is on Instagram too. What's your Instagram?

Speaker 1:

Mags Mindset.

Speaker 2:

Also Mags Mindset. We follow each other on Instagram as well, and I appreciate you giving us your time and listening to us on this always fun and controversial topic of men and women. And until next time I'll talk to you then. Who is the crowd? Talk to you then.

People on this episode

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Brandon Held

Host
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Maggie Sandnes "MagsMindset"

Guest

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