PF# 32: Dr. Shang Olsen - Ending Emotional and Mental Pain with Metacognitive Therapy

How does a hyper-focused mind inadvertently lock itself into chronic overthinking? In this episode of The Pain Factor, we strip away the superficial fluff of standard self-help to examine the mechanical neurobiology of psychological suffering with clinical psychologist Dr. Shang Olsen. 

This conversation focuses on how overthinking, worry, and constant threat monitoring form an automated "Autopilot" loop that feeds anxiety and depression. Instead of trying to analyze or change the content of your thoughts, this discussion introduces the empirical framework of Metacognitive Therapy (MCT). Learn how training your executive attention can break automatic loops, stop rumination, and help you regain control over a miscalibrated threat system.

Follow Dr. Olsen:

• on Instagram: #shangolsen
• on Youtube: Shang Olsen | Metacognition & Mental Health

Learn more about Dr. Shang's work at metacognitivetherapycentral.com

The Pain Factor is a Project Fourtress podcast.

Project Fourtress is a secular, humanist project, dedicated to find answers to the physical, mental and emotional pain people experience, as well as offer help to deal with these issues. To learn more about Project Fourtress, please visit fourtress.org.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:12

Welcome to the fight. Welcome to the pain factor. On this episode of the pain factor.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

My understanding of pain is that something is painful for you, whether that is physically or mentally, let's say anxiety or sadness or emptiness. And not only that, but also you now feel that you cannot get away from that. So it's something that hurts, that's persistent, and you feel that you're stuck and you cannot control this anymore. We usually have this idea that when thoughts pop up, there's only a few things we can do with them. Either we can analyze it or we can just uh try to push it away, and that doesn't really work, so we're stuck with it. That's basically what we think we can do with thoughts. Maybe we can do some meditation, that would be helpful for some short time short time. But in fact, we are very flexible in how we choose to respond to thoughts. There are several things we can choose to do, and some of them are better than others. When you're ruminating about your self-worth and how nobody likes you, how you're not lovable, etc., this is the reason why you're continuously feeling depressed. This is the reason why you're feeling you have so low self-esteem. What would it be like if you could reduce that thinking? I think pain can be short-term. Pain can sometimes be positive or helpful because it can direct us in some direction. I think suffering is something that lasts, it's pain that lasts for a long time, and you're no longer able to break free from that. So psychological pain, uh, let's say someone breaks up with you. Obviously, you're sad and devastated, and that's painful. But that pain at some point will self-regulate and you will feel better. But if you suffer, that means you've grabbed onto that pain and you continuously think about it, continuously ruminate about it, and think back and beat yourself up and ask why, what happened, all those things for a very long time. And you also no longer feel that you can stop that. So you're just suffering without being able to break free from that. That's what I would call suffering.

SPEAKER_04 3:18

I get about 10 new ideas every day, and one of my biggest challenges is not to follow them all. I used to be a big ruminator myself, so I know firsthand how exhausting it can be. Everything I recommend to my clients, I have applied in my own life too. Our guest today is a clinical psychologist, a chairwoman of the Metacognitive Therapy Institute in Denmark, a published author, and has also spent the past 12 years working with people who feel stuck in overthinking, anxiety, or depression. Shank Olsen, welcome to the Pain Factor, all the way from Denmark. Glad to have you here.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Thank you, Gustavo, and thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure.

SPEAKER_04 4:15

Tell us a little bit about yourself and your work before we dig in our conversation.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

So, as you mentioned, I work with uh people who on a daily basis come to me telling me that they overthink, they worry, and they ruminate and they beat themselves up, they think about their thoughts, and they have trouble getting out of that. And on a daily basis, I apply this method that's called metacognitive therapy, which I find incredibly amazing and effective. And um I help them overcome their own mental struggles, and I help them realize how much control they actually have over their minds. So that's what I spend many of my days doing, and I think about this method that I'm using. And outside of doing that, I am a mother, I have a two-year-old, and I'm a wife, and I um really take those roles very seriously.

SPEAKER_04 5:23

Shang, what is pain?

SPEAKER_01 5:30

I think um, Gustavo, every guest you have has his or her own own definition of pain. And as a psychologist and coming from a metacognitive therapy perspective, my understanding of pain is that something is painful for you, whether that is physically or mentally, let's say anxiety or sadness or emptiness. And not only that, but also you now feel that you cannot get away from that. So it's something that hurts, that's persistent, and you feel that you're stuck and you cannot control this anymore.

SPEAKER_04 6:14

I have received several uh answers, different ones, uh, and it is extremely personal, and it goes beyond science or things that can be actually measured. Um you mentioned in your work that thoughts are just thoughts. And I know that can sound dismissive, but I also know that that is not your approach. When we are talking about overthinking, about rumination, and when you say thoughts are thoughts, uh they are just that, what exactly lie behind that concept?

SPEAKER_01 6:58

I think most of us, and this is the experience that I have with talking with clients, most of us have learned to view our thoughts as one-to-one or almost one-to-one with reality. If I think something, that is the same thing as what's going on around me. Thoughts are facts. If I think something, then it's true. It's not just a thought in my mind, or usually true. Thoughts say something about me as a person. For example, if I think bad thoughts or sad thoughts or negative thoughts, that says something about me as a person. Um, so my thoughts are important and true, and I should therefore either neutralize them, I should analyze them, I should get rid of them, or make sure to change them into something more rational. This is in my experience, well, most of us have learned about thoughts, but they are important, that we should take them seriously, and we should do something about them before we can move on. So when I say that thoughts are just thoughts, it means that there's a different way to view thoughts. And that is that they are just inner experiences in the mind that come and go. So they're just brief inner experiences that pop up, stay in our consciousness for a couple of seconds, and then they move on and are replaced by something else. That's basically the nature of thoughts. They're not one-to-one world reality. Just because I think that everyone doesn't like me, this is not the same thing as reality. This is just a thought in my mind.

SPEAKER_04 8:45

But I mean, would it be the same to say uh uh at least in here is a very common phrase, uh, that perception is reality, saying that thoughts are facts. Um when we overthink, when we have these thoughts that for us are facts and our reality, and many times these thoughts are all that there is. Um how does it look like? You mentioned something about uh if someone doesn't like me, uh, that is a fact to me, but talking strictly about overthinking, what is a real life example that people struggle with every day that you can give us?

SPEAKER_01 9:31

That shows how they're engaging with their thoughts and overthinking.

SPEAKER_04 9:36

Uh-huh, exactly. A common example, something that we take as true and then it's just not.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

Uh I am not good enough. I should do better, people don't like me. Um, I am not as smart as I think that I am. I'm an imposter. Uh it's only about time before uh it's only a matter of time before people find out who I really am and how little I can or do. Um all those things are typically in my experience interpreted as facts because they come up when these thoughts come up, they come up with these strong emotions, and because we've been thinking these thoughts for a long time, we tend to take them at face value and believe that they are facts. No, no, it's not just the thought in my mind, the fact that I think I'm not good enough or I failed. This is a fact about me, about my personality. It's true. And when those thoughts, which is what with which is what they actually are, when they pop up, um, overthinking would look like then grabbing onto that thought and then building more onto the story. So let's say if I have this thought, I'm not good enough, or no one likes me, I would overthink, it would look like I then say, yes, this is true, because this and this and that. Then I would go through my previous experiences in my mind and compare and use that to beat myself up and gather evidence. Or I will start worrying about the future. Well, if I am not good enough, how will I be able to keep this job? Um, what will this person think of me? Um, maybe they don't want to be with me anymore. Um all kinds of things where we're building a story in our minds.

SPEAKER_04 11:25

I love what you said about gathering evidence because that is something that we unconsciously and continuously, consistently do. Uh I know I have. My one of my first approaches to self-judgment when I had just started therapy was an exercise that my therapist proposed that was a uh a trial. When I needed to demonstrate, explain and prove why I was a failure. I just had to demonstrate, provide evidence, facts, arguments about why I was not enough, why it was a failure, why I was not worthy of any attention or love or whatever you want to call it. And it sounded to me pretty stupid. Uh, it is a strong word, but I how am I going to judge myself? And the therapist said, Well, that is what you are doing. You are judging yourself all the time. But now I want you to put it into words. I want you to create a whole approach and a whole explanation and justify. You have to convince me that you are a loser. And it was extremely powerful and removing.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

Is that because you found that, well, there's no tangible evidence when I put it into words? What was it that made it um so clear to you that this is stupid?

SPEAKER_04 12:53

Because I didn't think I could just on purpose try to tell someone that I was not good enough. I was already in a bad place. And why would I ask why I am this bad? I already know I am bad. Why why do you want me to ask people why? Because one of the exercises or the things I had to do was to collect quote-unquote evidence or testimony from witnesses. And I had to choose four people that really, really, really knew me. That had known me for for many, many years. And that was tough too, because I had to go through this explanation with them and tell them I need you to be a witness. It could be a witness for me in my defense, but it can also be a testimony where you are going to help make me my case that I am not good enough. And out of all the uh the the whole exercise, that whole experiment that was the toughest part. Because people told me things I mean they were they were great things. I just it was hard for me to accept them. Do you really look at me like someone who is capable or able to do that? Um in that overthinking, uh in taking that those thoughts are facts, and in gathering that evidence against us, there has to be a moment, there has to be a question, there has to be something that can help us to detect that pattern, something that we can do to say, hey, that's uh that's not a fact. Or or or let me back up, is this really true? Is it is it a reality that nobody likes me? Is it a reality that I am not good enough? Is it true that I'm just a loser? So my what I'm trying to ask is Is there an easy quote unquote easy to access a tool that we can use to start making that difference and say, well, maybe these thoughts that I think are facts are not? Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 15:48

Absolutely. So is there an exercise that will be helpful in shifting that perspective on thoughts? So rather than so going from I am my thoughts, thoughts are true and facts, and to thoughts are just thoughts in my mind, even though they sound nasty and feel true, and I think all kinds of bad things about myself, this is just a thought. So is there an exercise that can facilitate that?

SPEAKER_04 16:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:15

Mm-hmm. It's actually maybe you'd be open for going through that together so that uh I can demonstrate what that will look like. Of course. But I'd like to try that with a neutral thought first.

SPEAKER_04 16:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

And and the idea is to let me back up a little bit. We have usually have this idea that when thoughts pop up, there's only a few things we can do with them. Either we can analyze it or we can just uh try to push it away and that doesn't really work, so we're stuck with it. That's basically what we think we can do with thoughts. Maybe we can do some meditation, that would be helpful for some short shot short time. But in fact, we are very flexible in how we choose to respond to thoughts. There are several things we can choose to do, and some of them are better than others. So let's try a couple of those, and then you can tell me how these things are different for you, how you experience them.

SPEAKER_04 17:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

So I would like you first to close your eyes and try not to think of a pink elephant. Try your best.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

Okay, you can come back. How is that?

SPEAKER_04 17:45

Um I was trying to imagine other color. Gray elephant, black elephant, blue elephant. Right.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

So we're trying to hardly switch that. It was hard.

SPEAKER_04 17:56

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

What happened?

SPEAKER_04 18:02

Um I guess that unconsciously what I try to do is instead of not thinking of a pink elephant, I was trying to think of something different. For a split second that I tried not to think of a pink elephant, I did.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

Right.

SPEAKER_04 18:19

So I tried to divert my attention, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Right. Did you feel like you were doing some hard work trying to not think of the pink elephant?

SPEAKER_04 18:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

Right. You have to stay focused on imagining something else to make that go away. Otherwise, it would come back.

SPEAKER_03 18:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

So this is just one way to deal with a thought, and I think this is a strategy that most people recognize. There's a thought I don't want to have, so I choose to think of something else to make that thought go away. As you also experienced, um it doesn't work that well, but at least it's very, very hard to do. So let's swap the strategy. Let's um this time around, allow the elephant to stay. Just close your eyes and let it be.

SPEAKER_04 19:48

What did you do? I was almost not thinking about an elephant at all. Either pink or blue or black eye. It just kind of vanished.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

Interesting. What did you do exactly?

SPEAKER_04 20:05

So you close your eyes and uh I guess I try not not to think. Uh uh my brain is always on overdrive. Um I I I I I was not worried about not doing something. I I wasn't worried. I was not trying to do something or to not do something. I guess that is the simplest expan explanation I I can provide.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

I like it.

SPEAKER_04 20:31

I was not trying.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

Right. So exactly what did you do with the pink elephant? Did you do anything?

SPEAKER_04 20:41

I just let it stay or go as it wanted. I I I didn't care. I didn't pay m attention to it.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

Alright. How are these two rounds different for you?

SPEAKER_04 20:56

The first one was hard, stressful, uh, and the second one was kind of much uh easier, let go, whatever happens, happens.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

Right. Well done. Thank you for going through this with me. So if you were if you were to choose one of these strategies uh to apply on your thoughts in the future, which one would you like to apply?

SPEAKER_04 21:25

I believe it would be healthier, much healthier for me to apply the second one. I have been told more than once by my therapist first, my by my psychologist uh in second place, uh, that I use stress as a tool.

SPEAKER_03 21:43

Uh huh.

SPEAKER_04 21:44

That uh stress for me is a way of uh keeping my depression and anxiety under control. I don't know if that has anything to do with this, uh, but I would choose the second option. It's just very it's it's it's hard. I I I I I need to fix a problem. Or at least I need to make sure that it's not fixable. Then I will leave it. I will leave it alone.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

I see.

SPEAKER_04 22:16

But I I I don't leave things unattended. I I know this is not correct to say, but I cannot do that. And I I I and I understand the can't cannot it's wrong because yes, I could. I just feel like I can't. Yeah, it's it's I don't know, I don't know if I am helping or not.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

Absolutely. I think what you're saying is um something that a lot of people would recognize in themselves, which is this tendency for us to want to solve our thoughts and solve our problems before we can finally let them go. And this this idea is actually the reason why most of us begin to overthink in the first place, because we've learned that we need to not let things be unattended. We have to solve our problems, we have to analyze them and think them through and find solutions through that thinking, and then we can move on. What we just did here during the second round is a different way. So in in Denmark, we say there's a long way to Rome, or there's a short way to Rome. And this would be the short way to Rome because it's just leave the thought alone. You don't even need to solve it, you don't need to analyze it, you don't need to figure it out, you can just leave it there because it's just a thought.

SPEAKER_04 23:45

What happens if the thought is something that I am worried about? And how do I say this? It's something that I need to face, and I have been pushing away, pushing to the side because I might know what the answer is and what it's what I need to do. But I just keep thinking about it over and over. And maybe I am not thinking about what to do, but what is going to happen once I do that? What do I do with that kind of thought?

SPEAKER_01 24:29

Um the simple answer is the same as we just did. Could you treat it like any other thought in your mind and not make it that big and not make it that important? So even though the thought seems scary and maybe it's related to a real life problem, maybe it's not. Um, but still the answer is really to continue to think because that is just what keeps us stuck. It makes us feel anxious and down and demotivated. But also it prevents us from doing what we need to do if we know what we need to do, and then realize that the result was not as bad as we thought. And even if the result was as bad as we thought, maybe we'd be surprised that we were much better able to handle that situation. Uh so let me let me put that into an example. Uh, what what what could it be that someone would worry about like that?

SPEAKER_04 25:34

It could be, let's say I know I am miserable at my job. There's no question about I need to leave my job. It is not only making me miserable, but it is preventing me from doing what I love. I could leave my job, it would be a huge, huge bet. It would be a huge risk. So everything could go downhill really fast, really bad. What do I do with a thought when I know the answer is yes, you need to leave, but maybe you just can't. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 26:25

Can't because it's too scary to face the unknown.

SPEAKER_04 26:28

Because it's too scary because of financial issues.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

Right.

SPEAKER_04 26:32

Because it will affect other people and not just you. Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

So if one of my clients asked that question, I would say, okay, so perhaps you're not ready to take that step yet, although you know that's what you need to do. How about we help you reduce the amount of time you spend worrying about it? So instead of worrying about it day in and day out for several hours a day, which is something that makes you more afraid of what's going to come, something that makes you more anxious and stressed and less um, less um, you're not gonna believe so much in your ability to to deal with the situation. So how about we reduce that worry? And we and you only think about this uh on a specific set time during the day or the week, and then the rest of the time take a break from that worrying and see what that's like. And when my clients try this, so they instead of worrying about it all the time, they postpone that to a set time during the day where they just worry about leaving their job. They come back and tell me that this felt much better. They were less worried, less anxious, and stressed. And you know what? The prospect of changing no longer feels that scary because they have not been entertaining all those scary thoughts in their minds.

SPEAKER_04 28:03

I think it would work. I also think it would be extremely hard to do. But I mean, the the reason that it would be hard to do is not uh a reason to not do it, and that goes to one of my questions regarding overthinking and how it hurts our mental health and how quickly I believe overthinking takes us into this downward spiral of pain. How do we address that? I know we have been talking about exercises or or approaches, but let me rephrase that. How important and how serious is it for us to to take a stand and say, okay, I cannot keep doing this? Besides any exercises, besides any uh things that we can do, if you have someone that is trapped into that loop and it's just postponing facing the overthinking, um, how important do you think it is for that person to say, okay, I need to address this? I cannot keep going in circles around this. And my question goes also to the importance of therapy, because chances are you will not be able to do this on your own. So if someone is trapped in that cycle, how would you explain to that person, hey, you need to take care of this now. You need to look for help.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

I think it's how it's very important to make that person realize the connection between the overthinking and how that makes them feel. So the pain that they're experiencing. Because oftentimes, most of us would walk around and worry about our health, our job, our relationships, our finances, and just continue worrying and ruminating without realizing that this is actually the reason why we feel so miserable. This is the exact reason why we feel so stressed and anxious. So, although we do it and we notice that we're feeling bad, it's sometimes difficult for us to create that connection. So that would be the first step. That's something I do with my clients. I help them see that step. When you're ruminating about your self-worth and how nobody likes you, how you're not lovable, et cetera. This is the reason why you're continuously feeling depressed. This is the reason why you're feeling you have so low self-esteem. What would it be like if you could reduce that thinking? What would it be like if you ruminated less on how a terrible person you are and how stupid you are? What would it be like if you stop worrying about whether you are seriously ill? Um, and most people will tell me that that would be so freeing. That would be so nice. That would make them be able to focus on other things, be present with their families, pursue their hobbies, go start that business that they've been thinking about for so long. So it's very, very important to address that. But the person has to see the connection between the pain and the overthinking.

SPEAKER_04 31:43

I try to explain that using an analogy because I love analogies, especially when we're talking about abstract concepts. Overthinking is an abstract concept concept. So what I what I try to do is translate it that into something that you can actually see. And the example I have provided are a couple of people that are not convinced to look for help. Is well, think about this. You just uh twisted your ankle, and it hurts a little. But you are a runner and you have a big, big ego, and you keep running. Eventually, or maybe immediately, that twisted ankle is going to turn into a fracture. You can stop running and you can keep walking and still don't see a doctor. Okay, keep doing that. Eventually, it's not only your ankle that is going to be broken, but it also affects your whole leg and your whole body because it is a trickling down effect. Even worse, it will come to a point where your ankle will not be fixable or will not go back to where it was a completely normal ankle because it has taken you so long to address it and to go see the doctor. And that is the same thing with trauma or overthinking or not dealing with something that comes back every single day. It is exactly the same, the same thing. The difference is that you can see someone limping. It's visual, it's very easy. And you can say, hey, you have a problem there. Are you going to see the doctor? While overthinking is just sorry to say, for so many people, just a word. And talking about words and talking about concepts, overthinking is a very popular word these days, like many others. But it also rumination is also a very popular word, or very used word. But they are not the same, are they? Overthinking and rumination?

SPEAKER_01 34:02

That's a good question.

SPEAKER_04 34:04

Or are they the same thing with just minor differences?

SPEAKER_01 34:08

Or I think overthinking is a term that's an everyday term that you would throw around. And it could be, it could mean that you're ruminating, it could mean that you're worrying, that you're beating yourself up, it could mean a lot of different things. Um, but it has something to do with you repetitively thinking about something that's usually negative, and you're just stuck in that loop. So you're constantly just chewing on something, chewing, chewing, chewing without really getting anywhere. That would be overthinking. So a more uh, let's call it formal or therapy language would be rumination.

SPEAKER_03 34:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 34:49

Um, so this is something we use, that word is something we use in metacognitive therapy. Rumination is a form of overthinking, it's usually present and backwards oriented. So either let's say we have social anxiety and we enter a room, or ruminating would be to analyze, oh, they're looking at me. Oh, I come across as awkward and weird. I don't know what to put my arms. So that internal dialogue as you're going on and uh in your situation, in your present situation, that would be rumination. But rumination is also past-oriented. So you're dwelling on things that happened previously. Maybe you were hurt by someone, or you did made some mistakes, or you said stupid things, or you failed, or bad things happened to you and your loved ones, and you're dwelling on that. So you're thinking about these things repetitively, and you're not getting anywhere. That's rumination.

SPEAKER_04 35:53

Thank you for that. It makes perfect sense, and I can establish the difference now. Um, you said uh in our first talk that uh the desire to fix or control our thoughts always backfires. How does that happen?

SPEAKER_01 36:13

Let's uh like to explain this through through through a metaphor. So so imagine you have a wound. You were chopping vegetables in the kitchen and you cut yourself accidentally. Now you have this wound on your hand, and the best thing to do when you have a wound is just to leave it alone after you put a band-aid on, you just leave it alone so that the body can heal that wound for you. This is something the body is great at doing. You don't need to do anything actively to make that happen. But instead of just letting that wound heal on its own, you're now scratching it and keep scratching it. So it actually takes longer for it to heal. Ruminating, or worrying for that matter, is basically scratching that psychological wound so that you're not allowing it to heal. If you're suffering from depression or anxiety or OCD or low self-esteem, and you are experiencing a lot of pain, it's it makes sense that you want to go in there and then think about that. Maybe you're trying to think your way out of how you feel. Maybe you're trying to understand why you came to feel this way. Maybe you're trying to find solutions. So it makes sense why you would go in and ruminate. But when you ruminate, you're just prolonging this depression that you're feeling, that this anxiety that you're experiencing. And that is because you're not allowing the brain to take care of these things for you, which is something that it's designed to do. Just like the body can heal the wound on its own without us having to do anything, the mind can also help us heal from negative experiences, from depression and anxiety and OCD and low self-esteem if we let it. And we're not letting it when we are ruminating. So therefore, it backfires in the sense that it maintains depression and it makes things worse. It even makes depression and anxiety worse.

SPEAKER_04 38:12

That does make sense to me. I could also be over-simplistic and say, well, if worrying is problematic, wouldn't it be better for me to just ignore my thoughts, my feelings, and quote unquote leave them alone? What would you answer to that?

SPEAKER_01 38:34

Well uh simplistic. I like it actually. But a lot of but I think a lot of people uh have different understanding of what uh ignoring thoughts and emotions mean.

SPEAKER_04 38:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 38:50

So ignoring thoughts it's is um can mean that I am pushing them away, I'm not dealing with my problems, I'm trying not to feel my emotions. Obviously, that's not a good strategy long term. It requires a lot of effort, and you're not really allowing the mind to heal these things for you. You're interfering with that process. Similar to you were trying to push the elephant away in the first round we did of the exercise. Um, but if ignoring means I'm just allowing the thought to be there, I'm just leaving it alone, I'm not ruminating about it, I'm not trying to understand it, I'm not analyzing it, I'm not trying to push it away, I'm not trying to change it into something positive. I'm just allowing things to be how they are, and I still focus on what I need to do with my day. If that's what you mean, then that's a great strategy. It sounds simplistic, yes, but it's a great strategy because now you're allowing your mind to heal anxiety and depression for you. You're allowing the mind to do what it's built to do.

SPEAKER_04 40:02

I I usually I think that we usually use the word thoughts and the word feelings interchangeable. But are they the same thing or not? And if they are not, how do we establish the difference or tell them apart?

SPEAKER_01 40:26

So I think when it comes to leaving thoughts and feelings alone, it doesn't really matter if you don't have a clear distinction uh of what is what. But to answer your question, so thoughts are these images and words that we experience in the mind. For example, I am not good enough, and then we have this image of us standing somewhere uh outside of a crowd, and maybe we're being left at or we're being left out. Maybe that could be a representation of a thought of not being good enough. Feelings are these sensations that we notice in our bodies that we then call an emotion. So it can be if I'm anxious, um, if I think, what if I get fired tomorrow? And I notice feeling anxious. So that feeling would be made up of all these sensations that I'm noticing. Maybe my heart beats faster, my stomach, um there's a nut in my stomach, I feel a lump in my throat, I feel tense, I'm sweating, I feel hot or cold. These sensations make up the feeling of anxiety.

SPEAKER_04 41:34

And they show a different issue, right? A different problem, maybe. Because it starts affecting your physical health.

SPEAKER_00 41:42

Sorry, what was the question?

SPEAKER_04 41:44

That I believe that it shows or presents a different problem because it is it is starting to affect your physical health. When your body starts sending you alerts that you can actually feel, maybe, at least to me, it would seem like things are getting worse beyond thoughts. I would say that those thoughts have started to overpower me, not just mentally, but physically. And to me, that would be a a later stage in the process of going downhill that path.

SPEAKER_01 42:30

This is what I've experienced personally as well, but this is what I see with my clients. So let's say a thought pops up. Uh, what if I made a mistake at work? Or what if I left the stove on when I left the house? And then they then grab onto that thought and then they worry about that thought. What if it's true? How am I gonna cope? Uh, what if I set the house on fire? What would that mean? I'm a bad person, blah, blah, blah. That thinking at some point then manifests us these emotions, and then we notice anxiety. And then that might us, that might lead us to think even more, worry even more. Oh no, I'm feeling this way. This is bad. I can't cope. What if I get a panic attack? I'm alone, there's no one to help me, and then we notice feeling more anxious that we are now trapped in a cycle. I don't know if that answered your question, but this is.

SPEAKER_04 43:24

Yes, it does. Um as someone who has a non-stop brain, I could uh continue talking about this for for ages, but I want to get into metacognition. Um what is exactly metacognition and what is the metacognitive therapy?

SPEAKER_01 43:48

So metacognition, simply put, refers to thinking about thinking, but is the beliefs and strategies that are involved. In monitoring and control of thinking. So monitoring, becoming aware, noticing what's going on, what's up with their cognitive state, and then regulating that, controlling that. So in metacognitive therapy, we use over we use metacognition in the sense that people don't just worry out of the blue. They don't just ruminate out of the blue. They start ruminating about their thoughts and feelings and problems because they have metacognitive beliefs that it's a good idea to start ruminating, that it's a good idea to worry. An example of a metacognitive belief is if I worry, I'll be prepared. If I worry, I'll prevent something bad from happening. If I ruminate about why I'm feeling depressed, I'll find a solution. So these metacognitions make us then start worrying and ruminating. And I think if you ask the round in general, a lot of people will tell you that they to some degree believe that it's helpful to worry and ruminate. So that in itself is not a problem necessarily. But if we also have these important metacognitions that are called uncontrollability beliefs, so basically these ideas that we can no longer stop ruminating and worrying, they are very they will impact us negatively because if we don't no longer believe that we can stop worrying about our thoughts and problems, then we're going to continue to worry. Or even worse, we'll use other unhelpful coping strategies to turn that noise down in our minds. For example, by drinking more alcohol, taking drugs, seeking excessive reassurance, avoid going out, avoid going to school, avoid talking to people. So metacognition and metacognitive therapy is basically these ideas we've developed about how thinking works. For example, that their thinking is helpful or that thinking is uncontrollable.

SPEAKER_04 46:33

How does metacognitive therapy uh how is it different from uh other disciplines that are very popular, like cognitive behavioral therapy, or how how do they differentiate and are they I I I don't want to say is it better? Because I understand that you have different sorts of therapies depending on the issue that is at hand and different approaches, but how is it different from other popular therapies? Maybe popular here in the US, maybe also popular in in Denmark or in Europe.

SPEAKER_01 47:17

So I think in in Europe, uh in Denmark, especially, in for many years, cognitive behavioral therapy, CBT, has been very popular. I think it's the same in the US. Um metacognitive therapy says that your thoughts are not the problem. It is how much you choose to engage with your thoughts, how much time you spend worrying and ruminating about your thoughts, about your problems. That's the reason why you're getting depressed and anxious. So just like going back to the wound. It's not having gotten the wound that's the problem. It is you continuing to scratch that wound so you prevent that from healing. So in metacognitive therapy, we don't look at the content of your thoughts. Most of the time, I don't know all of the thoughts that trouble some of my clients. What we look at is, well, how much time do you spend worrying about your thoughts? How much time do you spend dwelling and beating yourself up? And if that makes you feel depressed and anxious and suffer from low self-esteem, how about we we reduce that? Would that be helpful? And then the client would typically say, Yes, it would, but I don't think I can. And this is their metacognitive beliefs talking. Okay. I cannot stop.

SPEAKER_04 48:40

Oh, I understand. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 48:41

So I will then focus on helping them change that idea that they cannot stop worrying and ruminating. So this is metacognitive therapy. Help them reduce the amount of time they spend worrying and ruminating, and then change these beliefs that make them go back and worry and ruminate. So that's MCT. Cognitive behavioral therapy, on the other hand, says that it is the your thoughts, is not the situation that you're in, but is the thought that you're having about the situation that makes you feel depressed, that makes you feel sad, that makes you feel anxious. And that affects how you behave. Maybe you avoid more, but that's because of the thought and the emotion that you're having. So let's go in and help you think differently about your thoughts. So basically, let's change the content of your thoughts. So if you believe that I am seriously ill, you have a thought like that, and that makes you anxious, and then you go to great length to Google and ask ChatGBT and avoid and all those things. Uh, let's change that thought. What is the evidence that you're seriously ill? Do you have any evidence? Well, I went to the doctor and they said I was fine. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 49:56

The exercise I had to go through.

SPEAKER_01 49:58

Yes, basically, gather evidence, right?

SPEAKER_04 50:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 50:01

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Uh so it's it's uh not on content level, it's on what are you doing with your thoughts? Basically, we don't care what you're thinking about.

SPEAKER_04 50:13

So anyone can benefit from MCT.

SPEAKER_01 50:18

Anyone that experiences themselves overthinking a lot and feel troubled by that will benefit from MCT. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 50:31

What would be the first step? We kind of already touched this, but what would it be the first step for the people listening or watching this episode to take if they wanted to start breaking away from overthinking?

SPEAKER_01 50:48

So the first step would be to recognize that you're doing that. Most of the time we would walk around and not notice that we are ruminating or worrying, that uh we just feel bad, we just feel stressed, we just feel empty or demotivated. So, in those instances when you're feeling like that, it's a good idea to check in with yourself and just ask, I wonder what I am doing in my mind right now. That question can be powerful because most of the time you will detect that, oh, I am pondering something, I am ruminating about something, I am uh scratching this psychological wound. And um that in itself, that awareness can be very powerful. But if you now discover that you are worrying about something, a problem, and you don't want to, you can decide to postpone doing that for later. So I tell my clients to schedule a 15-minute rumination time or worry time later in the day. And that's the time they are allowed to sit down and worry all day like and ruminate all day like. The rest of the day to allow themselves to take a break from all that thinking. So whenever a thought pops up, and it's let's say 10 a.m. in the morning, and you're thinking about, oh, I'm gonna fill my exam, or uh, my relationship is not going well, and you want to go into that thinking, you can just say to yourself, you know what, I'm going to do that later in my worry time. I'm gonna worry about this later. And then you move on with your day and make coffee and go to work and all those things. And later, you can sit down and worry all you like during those 15 minutes. But only if you still want to. You don't have to.

SPEAKER_04 52:39

But I like that approach. Because telling me you don't have you cannot worry, you should not worry. You can't. That to me is not helpful at all. But if you tell me that I could compartmentalize something, I would say, okay, I like that.

SPEAKER_01 52:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 52:59

Let me be, I'm going to be miserable today for 15 minutes. And uh I I guess it also goes to what kind of person you are, if you are very anal or very uh what's the word? Uh rigid. Uh rigid, yes. And rigid, or or that you have just you're very structured. That is the word I was looking for. Right. That that is that would not represent a challenge for me.

SPEAKER_01 53:24

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04 53:25

Tell me, stop worrying. You are not helping. Uh, I might as well not talk to you. But if you tell me, well, let's worry about that, let's think about that, let's overthink, ruminate from 4 to 4.15 this afternoon. I can do that. I think I can. I mean, my my first reaction would be, I like it. Then I will see how effective I could be at respecting those boundaries, but it it would be it would be much easier. I had not thought about that. Thank you for that. I I I am sure that I'm going to apply that to my life.

SPEAKER_00 54:03

Um, yeah, let me know. Let me know how that goes.

SPEAKER_04 54:07

I I I will. I will. I'm serious. I will. I'm going to start doing that. Um besides the kind of therapy that we can talk about or or or um or use in our lives or choose. In the Western world, even today, with all the information and the quote unquote openness that there is to talk about trauma, pain, feelings, therapy is still a taboo, big big time. It causes shame, it causes guilt. Why do you think that even today, and with how things have changed, we still face that taboo, that stigma when we say, I am thinking about going to therapy, or I go to therapy, I was talking to my psychologist. Or so you see a psychologist? Why? Are you crazy? Why is that the case still today?

SPEAKER_01 55:20

So I think back in the days when we didn't know much about depression and anxiety and mental health, uh, we would think that someone going to a doctor, a psychiatrist, a psychologist was actually crazy. They were ready to be um uh put into the psych ward and locked in and they would lose control over themselves and hallucinate and all those things. I think we've moved away from that perception of mental health because we so much more openly, as you mentioned, talk about mental health. But I think, so if I'm to reflect about this question, I think that it has to do with the notion that you are not able to deal with your problems on your own. So what is it about you? Why are you not strong enough to cope with your situation? Uh, and maybe with your thoughts. I think it could be that.

SPEAKER_04 56:17

That's one for sure. Yes, that's one for sure. That the there's the shame.

SPEAKER_00 56:22

Yeah. Well what do you think? What do you think?

SPEAKER_04 56:25

Uh I think that, and I I have heard this many times. Why should I pay to someone to tell me what I already know?

SPEAKER_00 56:39

Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 56:41

And I am talking about people that are in pain and that are caught in a self-destructive cycle. Right. I think you asked me what I think. Well, I I think it is shame, but I think it's it's ego, and I think it's fear. For for for me, it was a little bit of all of that. There was some shame, there was some ego, there was some fear, the the the ego and the shame disappeared like this when I started therapy. The fear increased in an unmeasurable way. I I I the more I started to dig into my darkness for lack of a better word coming to my mind right now, the more afraid I became. Because it's very painful. And when you literally don't know if what you're going to find or what what answers. It wasn't even about having answers, uh, being scared about not having answers. I was scared about the answers that I would find.

SPEAKER_00 58:09

Right.

SPEAKER_04 58:10

I mean, that that is very personal, but that that is how I I uh experience it. It's uh it's shame, it's ego, it's fear, and and and a big amount of ignorance. We are ignorant. Why should how pathetic I I would say, how pathetic do I have to be to pay for someone to listen to me? Now I can say, well, that was ignorance. But at that time, it made complete sense.

SPEAKER_03 58:49

Right.

SPEAKER_04 58:50

So it's a mix of all of that.

SPEAKER_01 58:52

Sounds like a version of that. Uh, why would I pay someone to tell me something I already know would be why would I pay someone where I can tell these things to my friends?

SPEAKER_04 59:05

I've heard that one before. That too. Yes, I I I yes. Thank you for saying that because I've heard that too. And then you have to explain, well, it is because of the same reason that if you're going to have surgery, you don't go to your friends. It's the same thing. It's exactly the same. There is no difference. No, Gustavo, that is not the same. No, it is exactly the same. You're talking to professionals that don't ignore things that you do.

SPEAKER_01 59:32

But I think, Gustavo, also this comes from having gone to treatment maybe with the best um intentions and hope that things would change. And having maybe experienced that therapy was not helpful. Um, sometimes I hear, well, my therapist just listened, they didn't provide me with any tools. Uh, they didn't provide me with any insights, or at least nothing I didn't already.

SPEAKER_02 59:56

That is true. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 59:57

And I think now when I look at it from the perspective of metacognitive therapy, I think most of the time when people come to therapy, they what they really are saying is, I have trouble stopping thinking about how I feel. I have trouble stop thinking about my problems. Help me stop all this mind chatter. It's too much. They're not saying this explicitly, but this is what they're saying. Help me stop worrying about this. And I think most psychological therapies are designed to maybe not approach that and to not help you reduce worry and rumination directly. So many people would walk out of therapy maybe feeling disappointed because that was maybe not what they actually needed without being able to say exactly what they needed.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:52

I did my research, but I have to accept that I was lucky with the therapies I found. It was exactly the kind of therapies I needed. Right. Right. And I am 100% sure that for many other people, she would not have been the first choice. Because that depends on my personality, my needs, what I can take. There's people that need someone that is friendly or just uh not too harsh. Sure. And by harsh, I don't mean disrespectful. I'm just mean calling out your BS like this. And this was the kind of person I was talking to. So um there was no room for any BS because I would be reminded of how what I had said before.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:47

But um so you were lucky to find someone you really quit and found help.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:52

Yes. Yes, yes. I was also there, and I I don't know how to explain it. You would. I continued therapy with a psychologist that was from my home country, Uruguay, because I needed someone, I need I needed to talk to someone in my language. I needed to talk to someone in Spanish and not just Spanish. I needed to talk to someone in my Spanish. I can I don't believe I can explain well why that why that was the case. Um I I know why I'm not talking to a friend, I am talking to a professional, but I needed to just express myself in my language. Uh for for some reason, even though I I can't communicate in English, uh, it's like your mother tongue, your native tongue, is just closest to your heart. I I always say that when it is a language that you have adopted, like I have English, when I am speaking or talking in English, I am talking with my brain. When I'm talking in Spanish, it's just my heart. And I know that sounds silly, silly, but to me, I I needed that. Yeah. I I I needed that. I needed to because it's also a lot of uh cultural background and things that you communicate with specific words, and I know that Danish have have words that uh are hard to translate. Right. It's a whole concept, it's one word that explains a feeling, and that that is what I was needing. But uh I was lucky too. I was lucky too, and I understand that for a lot of people that is also that makes things worse because it took them a a lot of effort and courage to go to therapy, and then when they go there and they don't find the kind of therapies they need, because they just didn't know any better or they were unlucky, they just that experience confirms their fears.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:10

Very good.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:10

And in a wrong way.

unknown 1:04:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:12

But it validates that fear.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:14

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:16

Um, as a psychologist, as a uh MCT uh therapist professional, when you are faced in your own life with challenges, uh when you have something that is hard to process or that just overwhelms you, what mindset shifts, if you have any, do you employ? Do you apply to yourself to navigate those difficulties to to face those challenges? As someone that is used and that, as we mentioned at the very beginning of the interview, that for 12 years has been helping people to face those kind of challenges.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:06

I I apply what I tell my clients to do. So basically, I try to identify my own overthinking. So if let's say something happens uh with my work or in private um and I'm upset by that, that's very normal. That's human. So I try to remember that. But I if I notice that I'm worrying and ruminating and start overthinking things, I immediately stop. So I just allow, I tell myself to stop thinking about that thought. Just let that thought be. And since I've been doing this for so long, I also like to turn it into a challenge to prove to myself that this situation is also something I have control over. Uh, meaning that in this situation and with these thoughts and worries, I can. Still choose not to worry. And so I turned that into a fun game. And maybe it's a psychologist thing. I don't know. Um, so that's what I do.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:11

Do you really do you really get ten new ideas every day? Because that seems hard to control.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:19

That's one of the things I have the most difficulty controlling. I find it engaging and inspiring and fun to engage with those ideas. So I could walk around and do my fun rumination where I just think about all these ideas all day long. Um, but yes, I do get many ideas.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:40

Would it be correct to say that that is something we cannot help? Be myself being someone that has many ideas or many thoughts in a day. And we cannot help producing those thoughts or ideas, but what we can work on is only how we manage them. And we have to accept that yes, yes, I will be this person that is going to have 10 ideas every day till the day I die. That is not going to change. What I have to work on is how I manage that. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:16

I think, well, yes, yes, mainly yes. So we are bound to have a lot of different thoughts. That's just human, that's normal. We cannot really directly do much about that. We'll have negative thoughts, we'll have neutral thoughts, and we have positive thoughts or ideas. Uh, and most of the time they just pop up, uh, kind of like out of nowhere. But um, and we cannot really change that necessarily. But if we engage with one or more of these thoughts, then we are in a way guaranteed to have more of them in the future. So let's say if I entertain my ideas and I like to think about my ideas and build on these stories in my mind, then I'm actually guaranteed to get more ideas because that's how my brain works. So that's how brains work. The more you spend time on dwelling on something, the more the brain will provide you with it.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:15

It's a day-to-day challenge. Yeah. In uh a long path of learning.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:21

Do you get a lot of ideas, Gustavo?

SPEAKER_04 1:08:24

All the time. And the thing is that maybe uh I I don't get 10 new ideas every day. What I do is that I I am very programmed. I am not um an impulsive person. So maybe more than getting new ideas, what I get is different ways of doing something. I I I I think of plan A, B, C, D, uh and I I overthink, which many times works well. I wouldn't say I overthink, I overplan. I overplan. It's it's it's it's different. But I I I at this age I have already learned, I think, how to overplan, how to use over planning to get best the best or better results. But it's something that is also stressful. Um stress is a tool for me, so um so maybe it's good in the end.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:37

But I guess it's something that makes you be very thorough and and good at the things that you decide to do.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:43

Very thorough. Yeah, very thorough.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:45

I bet.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:45

Yeah. And I uh when I uh I have a plan, when I have established the goal and I have established why I want to get that, uh if I need that, or or if it is that I want that because there's a difference, once I come up with the best, according to me, the best plan, I try to destroy it. I I I I try to see everything that can go wrong. Everything. And until I am not through contemplating all the scenarios, I don't take the I don't make the final call. I think I am Wow. I can be really, you can really hate me about that if you ask me for uh what I think about something. I'm going to point to you all the flaws because I think that is what uh that that's the way I can help.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:43

Uh but you end up producing great things and great products because you've thought at the end of the day it works.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:50

And um, you know something that I didn't understand, I I understood it through experience was uh this concept of seeing something, not as having a vision like an epiphany, but uh seeing something, seeing exactly where you want to be and feeling like you're there. I always compare it as uh going across the finish line in a marathon, um and and you can call any BS on me because you are the professional, but it is said that your brain cannot distinguish when you imagine and envision something and establish a difference if that just happened or if you are just convinced of it because you have envisioned that. And and that helps you, for instance, in a in a run. Your brain needs to understand that you are not killing yourself by running. And what is with all this pain? I'm about to die, I should stop. Your brain should be telling you, okay, I've already done this, I got this. It hurts, it sucks. Um it's going to get worse and then worse. And by the end, it's going to be really, really painful. But hey, uh, I've already been here. So to me, that has helped me a lot because I I have been already in more than one situation where I, after getting to the place I wanted to get, I sat down and I said, I've already been here. I saw this. This is my first time here. I just achieved this, but I was here, and I was not surprised, I was relieved, and of course, being the kind of person I am, I immediately started to think about the next thing. And I have been to uh I am trying to learn to enjoy the finish line before starting to think about the next run. Um I don't know if that makes sense, but uh I think it's also a a way to manage my my depression, my anxiety, and different issues that I didn't know I had until I went to therapy.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:32

So right. So it's a healthy way of coping to engage in these projects and imagining that goals and then set the next one.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:44

I I don't understand the word the feeling of being bored. When if you tell me I am bored, I what do you mean? How? How can you be bored? How can you I don't understand that. I understand the blessing of feeling bored, like doing nothing for half an hour or 15 minutes or just doing nothing, just just just be. I understand the value in that, I enjoy that, I love that, but I can only enjoy that after having paid for that.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:28

I see.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:29

So I cannot sit down to watch a movie and have a beer just out of the blue. If I had a great run and I did everything I had to do, well I I I I have earned it.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:48

I see.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:49

I am not preaching that as the way people should do things, it's just the way it looks for me. It feels for me. I I I need to earn every single piece of rest. I don't know if that is bad or not.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:05

I guess it's just works for you. If it works for you, then yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:10

Um talking about enjoying things and suffering as the opposite side, do you believe that there is a difference between pain and suffering? And just like the first question I ask you about what is pain, I have perceived a different perspective. But what is yours?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:38

So this is just my opinion. Um I think pain can be short term. Pain can sometimes be positive or helpful because it can direct us in some direction. I think suffering is something that lasts, is pain that lasts for a long time, and you're no longer able to break free from that. So psychological pain, uh, let's say someone breaks up with you, obviously you're sad and devastated, and that's painful. But that pain at some point will self-regulate and you will feel better. But if you suffer, that means you've grabbed onto that pain and you continuously think about it, continuously ruminate about it, and think back and beat yourself up and ask why, what happened, all those things for a very long time. And you also no longer feel that you can stop that. So you're just suffering without being able to break free from that. That's what I would call suffering.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:47

So it is interesting that it goes back to rumination.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:51

And how you established the difference when you mentioned that rumination is tied to the past and it is, yes, uh, it makes perfect sense. Um Shang, this podcast is called The Pain Factor. I usually ask my guest what their pain factor is. And what I mean by that is a fancy way of saying like Superman has its kryptonite or what we usually call the Achilles heel. What is your pain factor? What is something that even today overwhelms you? And how do you deal with that?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:32

I think I've learned through this method that I'm practicing that most pain is momentary and it's not dangerous and doesn't last. But there's still some areas that are difficult for me to have this perspective on, to apply this perspective on. And that is if something happens that's so unfair and that is detrimental or cannot really be reversed. So I grew up in Denmark, but I was actually some some of my life, 10 years of my life, I grew up in the Middle East, I'm Kurdish, and that was during war and pain and poverty, and people, your loved one, would be taken by the government just like that, and they would be put into prison, they would be killed, they would be tortured. So things like that that are so, so unfair, that can produce a lot of pain for someone and their loved ones is something that really is difficult for me to come to terms with, if you can ever do that, of course. But that is my pain factor. But it doesn't have to be that large scale. It also can be someone being bullied in school, a child that's being bullied in school, or a child that's being beaten and abused like that. Um, that is something that I have a very difficult time just letting go of and then not ruminate about.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:11

Not that you mentioned that, um I this is an an additional question.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:22

I have big trouble dealing with suffering. And no not not mine. I can deal with my suffering. Um but when I I see the pain in other people, uh especially when I un understand why they are going through something painful and why they are extending that pain through suffering, it just overwhelms me. It kills me to see people suffering. And I know that sounds corny and that sounds cliche. I'm not saying that I suffer for them because I am the best guy ever in the history of the world. I'm saying that it kills me. Possibly because many times there would be no need for that suffering. Some people choose not to, for whatever reason, get help. Some people don't know better. Some people just can't. I don't know how to phrase the question I was going to ask you, but I I was going to ask you if if that is wrong, feeling like that. I and by wrong I mean aren't I just hurting myself? Is it good for me to feel that way? Or should I try to change that mindset?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:54

Um it sounds Is it healthy? Is it healthy? Only if it's something um it's it's only unhealthy if it's something that you keep thinking about and won't let go of. Something that keeps you awake at night, you keep worrying about and thinking about and engaging in these thoughts about that's just making you more frustrated and more upset and more helpless about the situation because you cannot change people. Um But in the end, how you feel is how you feel and that probably has something to do with you being able to be um to see to put yourself in other people's shoes, maybe to really feel what it feel must feel like for them when they suffer like that. Maybe you have a lot of empathy. There's nothing wrong with that. But in the end you choose how much that should take up your mental space.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:57

Yeah, I guess that's doing something like having these conversations makes me feel better in the sense that I I can say that I maybe the message that we are uh putting through will help someone to diminish their suffering. Chang, is there anything else that you would like to ask uh to add? Maybe I know there is a lot of things that we have not discussed because it's just such a deep topic to talk about mental health and our thoughts on pain. But is there something that you would like to add to mention or something that I didn't ask that you'd like to add?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:46

So when it comes to metacognitive therapy, I could just talk and talk and talk. But um I actually have a question. So you mentioned you've heard very different answers to explanations to what pain is. Um what has been the most surprising one for you? If there's a surprising one.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:11

I wouldn't say surprising, but it was uh original. I had this guest that told me that uh pain was a gift because of all the things that would happen to us and that would hurt us if we didn't have pain. And the analogy he used was that uh pain was like the fire alarm in your home. And that without a fire alarm you would just die.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:40

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:41

Uh if you were as if you were asleep, without a fire alarm you would die.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:45

And he also said that you could just uh turn off the alarm and go back to sleep while the fire was consuming your home. And that that didn't make any sense because that is what happens with pain, too. Pain is uh is also an alarm, it's the gift that tells you, hey, there's something wrong here. You should look uh at this and take care of this situation. So that was uh interesting. That was original, and I do agree. For me, pain is a messenger. That is the very first thing to me. What is pain is a messenger. It's telling you that something is wrong, or that there is some kind of danger somewhere, or that something that is supposed to be one way is not it's a messenger. Uh that would be maybe the original one.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:43

Interesting.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:43

But and I do believe that suffering is, and this sounds dismissive. It can sound dismissive, but I believe that suffering is much more of a choice. Um, which doesn't mean that not suffering is easy, but it is a choice because you can all you can also going back to your example, you can choose not to keep scratching the wound. You can choose to do that. Is it easy? No. But it is your choice.

unknown 1:25:13

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:13

And maybe cutting yourself was not, it was an accident. So, yes, that's that's what I would establish the difference.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:22

And I agree.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:25

Is there anything that you are up to these days that you want to share with us? Uh I would love to include your your information, your website, any social media channels in the uh notes for this episode. Anything that you would like to add so people that are listening to you to this uh podcast can follow you, learn more about MCT, learn more about you.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:51

So I have a YouTube channel where I talk a lot about these uh concepts um about metacognitive therapy, about thoughts just being thoughts, about how to deal with worry and rumination when they feel overwhelming and that you cannot control them. So my YouTube channel is called Metacognition and Mental Health. Uh, and then my name Shang Olson. So you can find me there if you're interested in listening to stuff about MCT. Um, come and join me there.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:25

I visited that channel. I think you explain things in a very simple way, and that anyone that doesn't know the first thing about metacognition can go there and start learning and maybe give it a chance. Chang, it's been a pleasure to have you here. Um it's been really a pleasure. I have high hopes for people listening to this to start establishing a difference. First of all, establishing a difference between the overthinking, the ruminating, those facts that we believe our thoughts are, and take action. Take action and go to therapy, talk to some mental health professional about what they're going through, and break free. So thank you so much for being here and from doing it. I know in in Denmark it's already nighttime, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:27:27

It's uh it's uh 7:30.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:30

Well, uh on a Friday, so thank you so much. I really, really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:36

It's been my pleasure. I've been really looking forward to this, Gustavo. So thank you so much for having me and and for this interesting discussion. I feel that we could continue talking.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:46

We we we we could and we will in another opportunity. We will for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:50

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:52

And for everyone else watching and listening, we will see you next time when we continue to explore the pain factor. Ciao ciao. The Pain Factor is a Project Fortress podcast. Project Fortress is a secular humanist project dedicated to find answers to the physical, mental, and emotional pain people experience, as well as offer help to deal with these issues. To learn more about Project Fortress, please visit Fortress.org. That is F-O-U-R-T-R-E-S-S.org. I am Gustavo Varella. I'm not a licensed medical professional, nor am I a nutritionist or a degree in exercise for sports medicine. All of the advice given on this podcast is what I have learned from my own experiences and mistakes, navigating through depression, anxiety, and chronic physical pain. Project Fortress is not responsible for any actions that may occur as a result of your listening to and implementing the advice we provide. Use all of the information that we give at your own risk.