Episode: From Shame to Grace

Pat and Richard talk about how their faith in Jesus has become an integral part of their lives' and their hope to be able to help people have the same experience.

Transcript

Pat: 0:20

And welcome everybody to the two Unlikely Christians podcast. I'm comedian, author Pat McCool, in the Piney Woods of South Mississippi, sitting on the banks of the lake, and to my good buddy all the way across the pond in the academic capital of the world. Esteemed psychotherapist and addiction specialist Richard Turrell. up rich?

Rich: 0:47

Not too much, man. End of a long week. Um, I'm actually in London today, so less the, um, academic kind of hub, mortar, economic, but yeah, no, I'm in the big city today. But all his, all his well mate and mixed exactly man. He had a feud. Systems that still alive and kicking. I've got some, there's a queue of peasants down the road actually bringing me their, their offerings.

Pat: 1:15

You said you had the servants last time things up to the

Rich: 1:18

Yeah.

Pat: 1:19

to make sure there wasn't any revolt going on there.

Rich: 1:22

Nah, man. They're all, they're all under manners, as we say, over here. They're all under manners.

Pat: 1:28

That's good because, you know, you know, I love your Brits, but you, you guys had some na you know, if they ever turned on you, you have some nasty ways of disposing people. You know, like,

Rich: 1:38

man. Yeah, yeah.

Pat: 1:39

it's like

Rich: 1:40

Yeah.

Pat: 1:40

in America, we, we had a little bar bearish history where, you know, we would fry people in electric chair, but if we hung people, we just hung them. You guys were kind of like, Hey, I go out on idea. Let's hang the bloke, but let's don't kill him. Just before he is dead, let's drop him, remove all his limbs and hang him again. So,

Rich: 2:04

Yeah. Yeah. It's like, um. So when you, you double fry something, you know, you cook it and then you cook it again. Get some extra flavor into it,

Pat: 2:13

put some

Rich: 2:14

you know,

Pat: 2:14

flavor. You just wanna discourage the, discourage the next guy from trying to overthrow, uh, Richard. Richard in the castle.

Rich: 2:22

yeah, well, we, uh, we let, we let the world in mistreating bed I think for a while there. So,

Pat: 2:29

Oh,

Rich: 2:29

yeah. But.

Pat: 2:30

no, but, and we, we love you for it, especially in America. We've got, uh, we got July 4th coming up. I mean, was it for you guys? We wouldn't have, we wouldn't have Independence Day and a three day Holli holiday. We're deeply appreciative of it, you know, so, uh, so,

Rich: 2:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That really, that really comes across

Pat: 2:51

oh man. Well, look, I, but it is good to see you. Because speaking

Rich: 2:55

you too, man.

Pat: 2:55

you know, at the ending of our last episode, things got a little awkward and we, just wanna share with the people that,

Rich: 3:02

I.

Pat: 3:02

you know, at the beginning of our, episodes. mentioned where I'm from and where that I'm sitting down in Mississippi and that you're over in England. And, we do that to let people know that, to illustrate the that kind of make us the two unlikely Christians. But with that said, that means we can't just pick the phone up and call each other and, uh, have a conversation. Well, we could. We don't, I don't wanna spend$30 for a 10 minute conversation, and Richard doesn't wanna spend 20 pounds talking to me for 10 minutes, but Richard brought me into the 21st century by introducing me to WhatsApp. So now at two o'clock in the morning, I could just send a text to Rich, or actually, he sends it to me because he's six hours ahead. So way we do this is. I will send a WhatsApp message to Rich saying I've sent the leak. Join the con, join the conversation at your leisure, he'll jump on and then we'll start the conversation. Or, or actually he will send me a message back saying, I'm coming. And 15 minutes later he'll show back up.'cause he wants me to feel like I'm talking to my wife. So, so we actually, Richard's a, Richard's a very busy man. So the last time we did that, I sent Richard the, the message, sent the link. said, Jeff, I'm coming. We start the episode. And I set the phone down. During the episode, I see a message flash across the top from my wife, and the message says, I'm in Polk. The reason she sent that was because in my family, we tell each other where we're going, what we're doing, if we're taking a trip, if we're going. To the grocery store. It's text me when you get there. I love you. I love you. Text me when you're coming back. Be careful. This time she was on a two, uh, going on a two or three day trip and she had just left. And so when the episode ended. I up the phone. She had just told me where she was and I sent her a message saying, just finish the, just finish talking to Rich. The dogs are indignant'cause I wouldn't let'em in the office. fun. Be careful. I love you dearly and threw in about five exclamation points and I even think I threw a heart emoji or two in there.'cause I'm a very sensitive guy. doesn't, I'm still, you know, a little bit of a Renaissance man and I. Went on one my life and was happy with myself. A few minutes later I walked by the counter and I pick up the phone the WhatsApp app is open I realized I had just sent that message to Richard. So I had

Rich: 6:08

Well the thing was, the thing was, pat, you, you didn't say with just, you'd just finished talking to me.'cause that would've given it away that you were. Talking to someone else. So actually what it came across was that you, you told that you, it was an update on how the dogs were. And then have fun and be careful. I love you immensely, which was, you know, it was different. I know you Americans are, you know, you're very expressive, you know, you don't have to stiff up a lip like we have. But, um, yeah, I mean, I had to take a beat and really think about, you know, where, where our relationship was at. Um. I generally like to be bought dinner before we start to get into that kind of thing, you know? So yeah, it was a moment. Pat was a moment.

Pat: 6:54

When I saw it, I just, I, I popped into a sweat. I was just, I was just thinking of No. no. Richard thinks I'm trying to take the relationship to another level. I mean, you know, I love you, man, but I love you in a, I love you man, kinda way. Not, uh, I love you. Text me when you land in Amsterdam, so I know my booboo it, made it safely.

Rich: 7:21

Yeah. I'm, I love you, man. That's, that. I'm comfortable there, pat, that's, that's more, that's enough. That's more that, you know what? That's, that's more than enough.

Pat: 7:29

I did get your response. I realized I did before I was hammering

Rich: 7:34

Yeah.

Pat: 7:34

my, oh my gosh. This is to my wife. But I did notice your, uh, I, your, your reply was, I know you guys are a little more demonstrative with your emotions, but you haven't even bought me dinner yet. So,

Rich: 7:46

Yeah,

Pat: 7:47

I dried the

Rich: 7:48

then that, that, it's probably a good point to draw your attention to this bit of functionality where it says Block Pat McCall and then report, report Pat Pat McCall. So it's always good to know that that's there, pat. Yeah.

Pat: 8:04

Okay. Well, alright, so now that we got, we got all that settled. Alright, let's get back to our, our favorite topic and, and, and that is Jesus. Um, the end of our last episode, uh, for those of you that are just joining us who have listened, Our podcast is really a continuation of a conversation that started about a year and a half to two years ago. Uh, we met and, realized we had a deep, passion for, for helping other people. And the best way to help people is share the gospel of Jesus. And then we just started having a conversation and we thought in our first episode that we would just cover our story so everyone would know our background. And here we are in. Fourth episode and we haven't quite gotten it all out yet. Um, to go back to the end of our last episode, I had just finished. telling you about stepping out of this office After I'd stepped out of this courtroom, found out I'd gotten probation at 18 years old, uh, that I wasn't going to prison, that I thought I was going to, I went to visit the person that I. I had had shot at me and I thought he was shooting to scare me, but told me that he was actually pumping bullets from a 38 caliber weapon right at my back. And they were almost like they were going right through me. I left this gentleman's office and went and sat in my car at which brought back all the memories of all the times that God had been with me in my life. And. That's when I really started realizing that God had been with me all along and, all of the dots that connect in our lives that everybody has. So from, that point forward, after I left that parking lot that day, I went and got my act together., I went and took what we call a CT, uh. In America, which qual, you know, to get into, to college. I did enroll at the University of Southern Mississippi and started getting, started getting my act together. I still had a long journey with Jesus, but to illustrate how all of these, dots get connected, the following summer, uh, answered an ad for a, uh. Job that was, that paid a good bit of money for my age and back at that time. And I told myself if that was, was, it's anything but insurance, I'm gonna take this job.'cause I know that I could, you know, I could do well at sales. I went to the job and interview and it was insurance. So of course I took the job and, uh, turned out I was really good at it. After a few years, I quickly became a top salesman with this company. After a few years, I got hired away by one of the top companies in the country, a Fortune 500 company, and that's where I met my wife, which was one of the best things that ever happened to me in my life because my wife's father was a Church of God pastor. My wife was a, Quite the woman of God herself. And I had an awful lot of polishing up to do and she helped me polish up. And within a couple of years I'd actually gotten promoted to becoming one of the top, uh, one of the youngest regional directors in the company's history at the age I was at. And we did this for 15, 20 years, just like you, Richard, the cars and the houses and the vacations. But something was missing where you were having a, the void and the habits were all coming back. I, in my case, it was after about 15 or 20 years, I just felt like God had something else for me to do, that he didn't just bring me through everything he brought me through just to make a lot of money and drive Jaguars. And, which by the way, to show you how much we love the Brits, we've had three jaguars. I

Rich: 12:09

Oh, nice.

Pat: 12:10

I got one sitting out in the driveway covered by a tarp.

Rich: 12:14

I didn't know they made pickup trucks, but.

Pat: 12:16

No, it's a, well, it's a Jaguar. And the great thing about the great thing about driving Jaguars, Richard, because it taught me why the British don't make televisions you haven't figured out how to make'em leak oil because. Because, because that, that thing's engine blew up at 137,000 miles. But I should have changed the oil a little bit more on it. But, the point was we, you know, we had a lot of success, but I did have a, a kind of a void in life and that's when I took, one day I came home and told my wife that I had quit. The insurance business and I thought she was gonna gather up, uh, the jewelry and call her parents and get a good attorney. just looked at me and said, I knew you were going to, I think God has something else for you to do. I went and did a, spot at a big club. And. Birmingham, Alabama. And when the show was over with the, uh, the audience erupted, the owner of the club called me in and said, I, I could do this if I really wanted to. And next thing you know, I'm performing around the country and performing in the Hollywood improv with guys like Jerry Seinfeld and traded the Ritz Carlton Inn for, for. Pilot truck stops and uh, and, and I was off and running. But that's what led me to eventually moving to New York City and getting to the point where I wrote my book. You had mentioned my book earlier, bonsai wasn't really that big of a hill. One man's walk towards God is the subtitle, but one man's Walk towards God is really what the book was about. Because after I wrote the book. I got asked to speak in a church and I, did, I wrote an act and my, act was always clean, but, I made sure it was clean to where I could speak in a church. And while I was in the middle of doing that, I did my comedy show up for about 40 minutes, and then I started sharing my testimony, which they wanted me to do from the book. And I literally. Broke into tears while I'm standing on stage talking. the chills came over me and it, and it was one of the most joyful experiences I'd ever had. And that's when I realized, this is what God wants me to do. again, I had this moment where God had been in my life. Every step of the way knowing I was going to get to this moment in time that took decades and decades and decades. And it illustrates, God does this in everyone's life. just like in your life, Richard, I was really, stunned when you started telling your story. You were how old when you, when you enrolled in university?

Rich: 15:09

Oh, 34. 34 years old.

Pat: 15:12

So,

Rich: 15:13

Yeah.

Pat: 15:15

you were still struggling quite a bit all through your twenties.

Rich: 15:19

Oh yeah. Big time. Yeah. So I, I, I walked through the doors of a 12 step meeting when I was 29. I was 32 when I eventually cleaned up, you know, I got clean and stayed clean, so, yeah. Yeah. My twenties were like a, a car crash, honestly, like. Like they started badly and it, it got worse. Um, and definitely by the time I was 29, I was, I mean, I was lost, man. Not completely lost, broke, broken alone, friendlies,

Pat: 15:50

See.

Rich: 15:51

suicidal.

Pat: 15:52

The point I'm trying to illustrate to, anyone that's listening. What happened to my turn started at 18 to 19 years old. That's when I ended up at you. I either had to clean myself up, or I'm going to prison. I started that. You didn't start to, at 29 years old is when you started getting your act together. so there are people out there with the family members I. Children, people that they think that, God has you know, it's too late for them. You know, this person would've done this at this age. The fact that you started at 29 years old is, is a pretty fascinating story. So you went on to school, but when did, when did you start having your experience with, faith with Jesus? I.

Rich: 16:42

Oh. Much later, like, um, I must've been clean. For, yeah, like 40, 41 years old.

Pat: 16:57

At at 41 years old.

Rich: 17:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So,'cause I was in 12, well I am still, but like in 12 step recovery. So, you know, it is a spiritual program. So one of the things we were encouraged to do is, you know, to kind seek out spirituality. So I looked at a lot of different, um. Avenues like Buddhism and, um, um, what else? Like, I did a Native American sweat lodge at one point. Um, so I've, you know, I, you know, pretty intense. I mean, I don't wanna speak ill of anyone else's belief system, but it wasn't for me. Um, it was being in a kind of very dark, very hot space with a lot of other men shouting and beating drums. So it was a bit like. Um, yeah, I mean, I've found the whole thing quite traumatic, to be honest with you, pat. It certainly didn't make me feel, didn't, I didn't get any kind of sense of connection out of it, but, um, so, but yeah, I've been looking for a while and then, but the church, it's really interesting. I guess it'd be something for us to talk about, you know, like later would be, certainly in England there's a, like, Christianity is not cool. You know, it's like, it's really seen as like, oh, it's, you know, people. Oh right. You've, you are one of them are ya, you know, like sort of churchgoers and, you know, seen as kind of Yeah. Just odd balls really. So I, I kind of always had this, this resistance to, to the idea of Jesus. I believed in God, didn't believe in Jesus, found the whole thing kind of cringey and awkward. And, um, and I, I still found it cringey and awkward when I went. But I was, again, had reached another point of brokenness.'cause even without the drugs, my addiction, you know, I've manifested in, in so many different things like work and money and sex and food. And I was just done, man. Like, and then kind of hit that kind of rock bottom place again, just without the drugs. And, um, and then I, yeah, so I walked through the doors of a church basically looking for answers and that, that, you know, so that came much later.

Pat: 19:07

That's fascinating, but that's the point was you didn't reach that point of peace. Until you walked through the doors of that church and started a relationship.

Rich: 19:21

Yeah. Like a hundred percent. Like it's like a, you know, that kind of piece that transcends all understanding, you know, like just, yeah, that was, yeah. I've never really felt that. It felt like I. Um, and it didn't happen straight away. It took a lot of hard work and a lot of dedication and reading the Bible every day and praying every day from when it didn't make sense. But, um, yeah, like just it. Something, someone, Jesus reached in and touched parts of me that nothing else had been able to, to reach and heal like without a shadow of a doubt. And that's after like a decade of psychotherapy, personal psychotherapy, you know, 1,000,012 step meetings, three or four sort of trips through the 12 steps. Yeah.

Pat: 20:11

As you know, he, he was with you every step of the way. Anybody that doesn't know the earlier episodes that Richard had, some, very dangerous moments stabbed, bleeding out, almost killed, we both came through some incredible, um, moments that we, we brought on ourselves. God brought us through those. He, was watching and with us all along and he was, he was watching and waiting. But the thing that you illustrate is that at 41 years old, so if you're in your twenties, if you are in your thirties, um. God is still waiting and He will wait for you and it still is a journey. You don't have a moment. You know, as you mentioned to me after reading my book, when we, we, you know, we went, we didn't talk for a little while and we touched back base after you had had read it. I decided I was going to believe in God. There's a difference in believing in God and there's a difference in just giving your life to Jesus, turning things over to him, because when I met my wife, it was, yeah, I, I believe in God, but I still, I got in the business world, you know, I. I, I wasn't past telling a fib to win a business deal or things like that, and my wife was always standing over there. Just, she's, she's this incredible woman that would, uh, what did you say? Oh, did you tell him? Well, that's not true, is it? I was like, yeah, but I got to got the deal. And she's like, yeah, well. You really think Jesus wants and little things just kept moving along with me. I was making money, but I really wasn't filled with the peace. Everything felt like, um. But I was moving, you know, I was believing in God. I believed in JI had, when I went for that, that took that first job in the insurance business. man was a, uh, I don't know if I told you this or it was in the book. The man was a, Christian and he asked me if I'd believed in God and he, and I said, I did. He said, did you, um. Have you ever accepted Jesus? I, uh, no. Boy, I really started sweating then, and, and he said, you want to? And I was just, you know, I mean, what was I gonna do? So, so I, we prayed the, the Lord's and officially. Got saved or gave my life to Christ then, but I never really, I, I really didn't give anything up at that point in time. I prayed that prayer, considered myself saved. I'm a Christian, went on about my business, but, and I was still considering myself, but there were still things I still kind had that that piece was not there. It was still a life with anxiety. It was about how much money am I gonna make? How much can I accomplish here? I still had a little rage. I never, you know, I, I was a little bit of a rageaholic. I, you know, I, still had all of these things and then I, I went on to become a, even when I became a comedian, if you recall in the book, you had mentioned that moment where I had been trying to work everything out on my own and, I had that incident where I had this show canceled. Anyway, things had all of a sudden that had gone incredibly well. But then they kind of started going well for me and I end up in that church and, and the pastor of the church gives the invitation. I don't know what they do in England, but uh. He gives this invitation at the end of the church services, anyone, you know, come to the altar, I'm assuming, I think you've said similar experiences.

Rich: 23:48

Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent.

Pat: 23:50

and as a matter of fact, the video you sent me of your last church service, Very similar to the church service here.'cause I was wondering, what's it like in England? What do you do? I mean, I, I know, I don't, I, I know we joke about it, but I'm like, is everybody wearing robes? You know? Is is the, the, is is the pastor?

Rich: 24:13

We got some of that. But you know, I, I'll go to, you know, for me it's about kind of modern church, modern worship music and you know, so like I get, that's where I find my, you know, that's my home, you know. But um, yeah, we have the auto call, you know, we have the auto call and um, you know, I definitely get that kind of experience. I came in, I believed, you know, I believed quite quickly, you know, and I got baptized on that basis. I believed that Jesus was the son of God, that he died on the cross three days later, and then he rose up to heaven to sit at the right hand of a father. And I knew that was true all of a sudden, but I didn't, you know, my life was still, I was still very lost is the truth. You know, I was still very lost. Um, and then I. A bit like you, you know, like the shows start got canceled and things started going wrong. And you know, for me, my life blew up. Like my addictions, my non-drug related addictions all, you know, it all blew up. It all came out and you, you know, it was an extremely difficult time. But I got a pat of pastor friend, um, in New York called, called Roman Ramos, and he talks about, um. Sooner or later, you know, like Jesus keeps knocking, you know, in the end it's like, are you listening yet? Are you ready to listen yet? You know, and that's, you know, when life tends to fall apart a little bit and then we have no choice, or I had no choice but to, you know, something in that brokenness. Like, I found, I found him there, or he found me there, I suppose, you know, but it was in the, in the, in the ruins of a, a worldly life that I, that he found me.

Pat: 25:47

Well that's, the similar situation I had. I was still trying to do things, my way. I hadn't really completely turned it over. And, that day he gave that invitation. And I don't, I You read it in the book,'cause you mentioned, you mentioned it to me where he. The, pastor was fantastic. Pastor, he's my pastor now, and he said, I'm, he gave the, invitation and nobody moved. And, and I didn't, I was kind of, I, you know, I was like, okay, I'm, everybody here's got something to get off their chest, already done it, you know, let's move along to, you know, the, the football game starting. I'm ready to go home. And he said, well, he said, keep singing to the choir. And he said. I just feel like there's somebody in here that I'm speaking to and I'm thinking, I wish that person, you know, on with it. And so we could get on outta here. And it turned out it was me and the moment that I threw my hands up, and the moment that I did that, that's where everything really officially changed with me. I had this feeling come over me like there was no drug. and, and that's where the, I I, I think at that moment, that's where the Holy Spirit. I had made room for him, and I think that's what happened with you. You had made room you, you can believe in God, and I'm saying this for people that are out there, that believe in God just like you, when I left that man's office. Uh, you know, when I first got in the insurance business, I, at that point in my mind, believed you just said. Jesus was the son of God and he gave his life for us, but I hadn't fully accepted that in my heart to go get the peace. And the joy and, and, and the path that he has for me. And, uh, that's why that, that's an amazing story that you had at, at 41 years old that that finally, that finally happens for you. And now that you have the peace, uh, it's just an amazing story. And people just need to, to understand that God has been with you all your life. If you look back through all of the things that have happened. He was there, he was watching, he was waiting. He's bringing you along, but you have to give in and you have to accept him fully into you because when you start talking about those other things manifesting in your life, that is the devil. That's Satan shooting arrows at you because the, the, the, the higher value targets you are. The more you're moving towards God and the more you're moving towards Jesus, the more he's gonna start attacking you. And that's what he was doing to you. But what the beneficial thing is if, if you are on that path, God's waiting for you and it pushed you into that moment where you gave it all up. And it's just like you said, the moment you had in South Africa where you started reading, you literally picked up the Bible and started reading a Bible verse and. That's what made all the, and, and, and that at that point gave you the peace and it it gave you the healing that you needed to, to, to move along.

Rich: 28:55

That was a big shit. You know, there were three really big like felt things that happened and um, one was. And there were, you know, lots of things that happened in my path. People were put in my path, you know, um, you know, a wonderful chaplain when I was in, um, in the treatment center in Arizona, you know, a pastor that, that was a, a great friend of mine there, and I, I, I just, all of a sudden I just had this, this really deep sense that like, that I was forgiven. Like that I was forgiven, like my sins, you know? And, um, you know, which were many, you know, at 41 I came in, you know, walked through the doors of a church, like soaked in sin and um, you know, I had this deep sense of being forgiven that made me realize. That I'd never forgiven myself and I, not even for the things that I've done like, but just for, for who I was, you know, like on a very fundamental core level that I think a lot of recovering addicts or addicts, but you know, like relate to is like just this sort of deeply burnt in sense of shame. That it's not all right to be me. And I realized that. And then it just felt this very profound sense of forgiveness and that was very tearful and joyful and bittersweet and sad. And then, and then I was in South Africa on a work trip and, and some of those, you know, urges and cravings and addictive thoughts started to kind of come back and, um. I lent into the Bible, um, to Psalm 51 and I, which is about, you know, renewing me a clean, clean spirit, you know, renew renewing me a clean heart, you know, in a steadfast, loyal spirit, depending on the translation. And I. And I just prayed this desperate prayer of submission. Really, you know, like James four seven, like, submit yourself to God, resist the devil and he will flee from you. And what I realized in doing that prayer was that like, I'd spent a long time resisting the devil. I never submitted to God, you know? And, uh, it was just a, uh, just a desperate prayer like of like. It was like a first step moment, you know, from the kind of AA steps, you know, the admission of powerlessness. It was like, yeah, I can't do this like on my own. Like I'm done. Like I need you. Like I need him. You know, it was this really desperate prayer and something shifted then, and those thoughts have, have never really come back or that they've tickled around the edges, but they've never really come back. And then, and then the final thing, which was just so indisputable was, was being in church and, um. Just getting hit with this, this, this sense of love, like this deep love that just washed over me. And, uh, and you know, I know we spoke about this separately, pat, but like, it was this, it was completely bittersweet because in realizing how loved I was by him and how completely and unconditionally loved by whom I was, I realized that I'd never really felt that and I'd never, I never knew how to feel that. I didn't grow up in an environment that particularly supported feeling that. And, um, and I just sobbed, man. I remember just sobbing, like I had to go to the, the toilet at the back of the church and like clean myself up afterwards. Like, I was like a mess. You know what I mean? And um, yeah. And that was like, and on the back of that, it's, it's like I don't believe that God loves me. Do you know what I mean? And I don't think that God loves me like I know. I know he loves me like unmistakably, like there's no doubt in my mind, you know? And even though like my trust in God can, and Jesus can waver sometimes, you know, when things aren't going quite my way and there's a growing edge there for me in my faith journey. But like my faith ne no has never, it doesn't shift. You know? Like I know that Jesus was the son of God. I know that God created the earth. I know. Like, I know that he walked the earth and I know that he died and it cause first sins. And I know that he rose again three days later. Like, it's just like I know that that's the case. Like I know he is, you know, the king. You know, like it's as simple as that. Like there's no doubt. There's no doubt.

Pat: 33:16

Said, and when people, when people realize that that's where the peace, that's where the healing, and that's what happened with me the day that I finally gave it all up, I was healed. was just, I, I was healed of those, uh, of, of those things, uh, from the past and, and, and one misconception, people think, people think you give. You, you give your life to Jesus, you become a Christian that you're walking around with with no regret. Now Jesus paid the price, but, but both of us, and I encourage, Richard had mentioned, you know, the struggles his early childhood. We don't have time to get into it. But if you go back to the earlier episodes, You will see that Richard had a very tough childhood and had every reason in the world to not feel loved. And, and I come in contact with so many people, Richard, that I can just tell, I can just look in their eyes and I start to hear their stories.'cause I'm genuinely interested in everybody's story.'cause everybody has a fascinating story. They don't have to go through or do the things that we did. And all the, that I did. But they all have a fascinating story. But people struggle because of lack of love. We all want love. And you had a reason to not. Not believe it. I had some reason, some not, some I brought on my own. But that's where it all comes from. And the whole point of, giving your life to Jesus is feeling that love and knowing that you're loved does not mean that saint's not gonna shoot his arrows at you. He, he is, he's, I, use a phrase I call Monday morning Atheist. My wife doesn't like it, but it's Friday. Hallelujah Great. You know, sermons, you wake up on Monday and the devil's like, he just start, you know, it starts in on you, but when you, when, when you're able to draw on, on the peace and the joy and the strength that Jesus gives you, and when you know, it's like you said, I know people ask me, I, I, I've talked to somebody's in an agnostic or an atheist and they start, I said, you know, I can't, I'll explain things about, you know, the, the, the Bibles. can't explain the Bible. Uh, you can't explain all of these things, but I said, but the proof is this is who I was. And this is who I am now, I know it. I'm not interested in, winning any debates. I just know who I am and the only difference in my life is my faith in, Jesus, and it's available for anybody. I. And he will wait as long as, as it takes, for you to come. And there are people out there that don't know Jesus. There are people that do that are just like you and I were, that are right now listening to this that are struggling day to day. It might not just be with temptations, but just life in general is getting up and they just don't know the access that they have, that the peace and joy and that the creator of the universe has been watching them from day one. Has been watching every step of them and he's watching them right now. And you can get your strength and your peace from them. Um, we go. You sent me, which was kind quite amazing. You, you're quite the brilliant guy there, Richard. Because I was thinking about this, the o the other day, and I, was thinking about we're going do our next episode and I was looking at, and it was just, and you, out of the blue, you, you sent me a WhatsApp message and it was at a time that I never get a WhatsApp message from you. I get it. Richard sent this at one o'clock at night and I've got it. And you sent these two poems, which were. Just brilliant. And if I got chills each time I read, uh, the first one, I haven't really delved into the second one'cause I keep reading the first one again. uh, I don't wanna put you on the spot, but could you just as we close out, just read that point that, that you wrote.

Rich: 37:15

Yeah, of course. Pat. Thank you. So this is a poem I wrote called He Loves You Anyway. And uh, it goes, it goes like this. So I came to the order, soaked in sin, drenched in, shown, and mired in the world, shackled by Lies. And he said, come as you are and I'll wash you clean'cause I love you anyway, more than you could ever know. I always have. I.

Pat: 37:47

That's, fantastic, Richard. Because if anyone that can get that in their heart and in their mind can change their lives and there's, and nothing more important than those last five lines. Those last five lines, which is I, it is something I try to tell people all the time I love you anyway, more than you could ever know. And I always have. I always do, and I always will. All the things we were going through in our lives. All the things that people that are listening to this have gone through, if they just get into their minds and into their hearts that Jesus has always loved them, always does. Always will. That is life changing, and that is where you can find the strength to living a life of peace and joy and happiness and purpose, uh, which you and I have, have found, and we'll continue to try to share in our next episode. rich Till next time, I love you, man. text me when you get to Amsterdam and, uh,

Rich: 39:01

I, I'm not, I'm not gonna Amsterdam.

Pat: 39:04

you're not.

Rich: 39:06

No, I'm gonna New York.

Pat: 39:07

Oh, well maybe text me when you get to New York. Okay bud. Alright, till next time. Alright, take care.

Rich: 39:21

Take care, pat. Bye.