Ep 8: Difference between church in England and the USA

Richard and Pat discuss the differences between church in England and America, along with the roll England has played in the history of Christianity. They also talk about the discrimination against Christians in the UK and the revival of Christianity that is now taking place.

Transcript

Pat: 0:20

Alright. Good afternoon, Richard. Good morning, pat. Is it actually morning over there or you just, you know, man, it, this, this evening? It's the evening time. Just, well, you, I know you think I've throwing you off because normally it's morning over here, but we had to go a little late today, to get started, so, oh, of course. It actually isn't the morning for you is it's the afternoon. Just about right. It's lunch. Yeah. Do you have, do you have clocks with hands on or do you just have the ones with numbers? No, we don't have, the little hand is on, the little hand is on the 12. The big hand. No, we have the clocks. As a matter of fact, most of my clocks are made in Britain. I dunno what It's my, yeah. My wife buys these clocks that they're Britney or something, but they're mostly made. She bought a whole bunch of'em. They're made in Britain. Will you be able to get that with the tariffs? Now there'll be like a million dollars, wouldn't they? No, we've already got'em. All we have to do is keep replacing batteries. Okay. Which is the thing, my wife is like a clock freak and she has clocks all over the house and so she has'em all over, like every wall you look at, there's a clock. The problem is they take batteries and she buys the batteries at Dollar Tree, which is pound tree. Isn't that what it's called? Anyway, we, we have pound land and we have pound land, so Yeah. But I'm aware of Dollar Tree. I met when I was in Mississippi. I met a woman who said she could, she could do a, a week shopping at the Dollar Tree. Yeah. So. You can you just, the stuff you can get in there, but calling something I don't want to get, but calling something pound land or pound tree in America would be that. You could have a whole different connotation. So it's pro profit a good thing. We've stuck with the, we've stuck with the dollar tree there, but yeah, it's a dollar. Or now that inflation dollar$25 50, you'd be amazed at stuff you can rack up on in there. But she gets the batteries and the batteries aren't like the best. Maybe quality batteries. I don't know. So they kind of fade fairly quick. So the point I'm getting at is you walk around my house, it's like I'm in eight different time zones because the battery starts fading. You know, it's 10 o'clock over here, it's 11. I gotta meet Rich at 12. Wait, which one of these clocks is. Kind of close to the actual time. It's like you have the clock to have the clock instead of to actually tell the time. So, so anyway, but it is lunch, so this is one of the few times. So I guess you've had a long day to, to squeeze it in. Actually, I'm in a little trouble it being lunchtime because I know you've had a crack at marriage and you're about to get married again. But after 35, that's, that's very diplomatically put Patrick. Yes, that's correct. Yeah. I think I gave it a go. Not very. I should, I shouldn't laugh. I not very successfully, but yes. No, no. I know it's not, I know it's not funny. I know you feel, I know. But I think you would say had a go at it. I did. I had a go. I gave it a shot. I definitely gave it a shot. Gave, gave it, gave it a shot. Well, my wife had given it a shot before sh before she. You know, before she landed me, so 35 years later. Yeah, I told you before I got married, big fish. She, we, we lived, we, it was, yeah. She, she had no idea it was, uh, actually we worked for the same company and I kept hearing about this woman that was the state administrator. In Jackson, the Capitol, and they. Were telling me how attractive this woman was and I was still a bit of a shallow how person back at the time, you know, I've been fighting it all my life. But, you know, I was like, like one guy, a boss I had one time, he said, pat wants somebody to make him look good. So if they're telling me that this girl is looking, but bottom line is they turned out, uh. It, it was right because I'd come home from work one day and the guy that was my district manager at the time called up and said, you need to come down to the office. I'm like, man, I've been out in the country. I'm tired. I'm, I've already got my tie off. He said, you gotta come on down. He was a friend of mine and he kept telling me, come on down, come on down. And I'm like, I'm not coming. Finally, he said, you, you better come on down. And um, I said, all right, I'm gonna come down there. I said, but when I get down there. Christie Brinkley better be sitting on that couch. I, he said, all right, come on down. Well, actually, he was a country guy, so he was like a, come on down. So I drive down there and I walk in the door and he said, pat McCool meet Christie Brinkley and points over to the couch and is the most beautiful woman I'd ever seen in my life. And I immediately think. Way outta my league, but I throw something out, you know, I kind of make a comment and, uh, and then she responds and I'm thinking, wait a second, this woman is actually talking to me. And, uh, it turned out, whatever, you know, whatever I was, was slinging. She was buying. And within a hundred days we got married, as I told you, in a double wide trailer. By a guy that I used to work with about 45 minutes out in the country, and the guy went out and, um, showed us his goats and his mules, and we picked up a box of Kentucky Fried Chicken and headed home. 35. I had to move in. I had to seal the deal before she realized I didn't have a fortune stashed in the Caymans. And I really hadn't, you know, rescued children from a burning building or whatever. I told her the first night that we met. So, but what I was getting at was after 35 years of marriage, you listen to your spouse, but you listen for tone. If it's an emerging emergency tone, you. You hone in, but if it's just regular talk monotone, you might not hear it as much. So you get I, my wife was cooking something and we had like some french fries left over from the weekend or whatever and she said, do you want any french fries? I said, no, I'm sick of french fries. And she screams back, you're sick of my big fat thighs. I was like, no, I didn't say anything about your big fat thighs. She said, so you're saying you, I have big fat thighs. I just, I don't know if that's ever happened to you. I just grabbed my stuff and headed up the stairs and I will. Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm familiar with that kind of, um, communication breakdown. Definitely. I think that's trans, that's transatlantic for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Well, hopefully I'll stay up here talking to you long enough that it'll have let things simmer down. Yeah. It'll have moved on by the time that I get back down so Well, anyway, today we've been meaning to talk about this, we want to talk about the. The difference between church in England and America, and I have never been in a church in England, obviously. So if you would go first and you have been in American and American churches, so if you wanna start by te telling us your experiences. Yeah, I mean, when I was in Mississippi Zippy pack when we met, right? Um, I was thinking about this the other day actually, like the, you know, I was, um. You know, I was a drug addict as you know, right. So like my, my world for many years was very small, you know, very, very small. Right. You know, it was, you know, a couple of square miles really. And if there was a better, you know, if there was better. Dope. A bit of heroin, like a few miles down the road. That was like a holiday, you know, that was like a day out, you know? Um, and then now I've had this opportunity. I was, you know, really thanking God for that actually. Like, it's like I've had this opportunity to see, you know, see some amazing places, you know, and, and I think Mississippi. I, I think Mississippi gets a bad rap, rather Americans. I, I thought it was, oh, you know, I really enjoyed my time there, but one of the things I did when I was there was I, I went to, I went to church there, right? And, um, I think what I notice, what do I notice about church in Mississippi? There's a lot of it. Yeah. There's a lot of it. Yeah. And you know, like, and some of the, you know, some of the driving past, some of the churches were like driving past a small town. There was like, you know, like several big buildings all connected. And then another building over here and another building over here. But it was all one church, you know, on a huge plot of land. So I really noticed that. But we went to, um, you all know where this is Pat? I can't. It was a Baptist church. It was next to a high school, right? Temple Baptist Church. Yeah, I believe so. That sounds very familiar. And out kind of west of town. Yeah, it's kind of on the way out of town. We were driving down the road, we were going through a crawfish boil. A crawfish bowl, which was the, the Mississippi crayfish company was, was down that road. Right, right. But did you eat the crawfish? Yeah, man, I ate crawfish. I went to a crawfish mall. Oh, it's crawfish bowl. Yeah, it was, but that's it. It was an experience, man. I went with a couple of guys. There were big trucks, there was a lot of talk about guns, and we ate crawfish, you know, and honestly, I loved every minute of it. Now I still have, I have a baseball cat, a ball cap from the Mississippi Crayfish company, which, uh, is, it was a cool, it's a nice, a nice memory. But anyway, on that road, that's, we getting back to the, the matter at hand was, um. Was this in this church? And it was the scale of it, pat, right? It was like, so there was this enormous parking lot. There were people directing you to where to park. There were different entrances for different, there was the student entrance, you know, and the, the kind of regular people entrance. And from walking in there was like a, a massive corridor around the central auditorium. But the only place I've seen that over here. He's in stadiums, you know, like, you know, like where you have that kind of, you know, a, a a, a space that is so big you need to build another space around it in order to figure out how to access it, you know, but like, so, you know, in different entrance, six direct traffic in front of it, they, there's actually a, a, a police officer will be out in front on Sunday mornings direct. Tr traffic. Yeah.'cause of the sheer volume of people going there. Right. And, um, you know, so I remember walking in and they had, I have seen it over here actually in, interestingly in very small churches for, for, for different reasons, but like in this huge church. So they had that kind of communion to go, so like a little pot of grape juice with a little, with a, a little wafer sealed in the top, you know? So, so have you done that in, have you done that in, in England? I have seen it in England since. But what, I'll tell you where I saw it in England, it was sort of like they had like the opposite, um, situation that they, because it was such a small church, it was a little Pentecostal church in, in, in southwest London, near where I lived for a short time. Um, and um, so because the congregation was so small, eight or 10 people, they, they did it like that. Right?'cause you know, it made more sense, I guess, than. Than having the, the full sort of setup, but yeah. But in this church, obviously it's because the volume is so huge of people, right? So if you, if you did it traditionally with the table and the bread all the way through and, you know, the, the goblet of, of wine, the blood of Christ, right? Then, then obviously it would take the whole day to, to to, to get to everyone, right? But so walked in communion to go on the way in. And then walked into the main kind of auditorium and like there's just rows and rows and rows and rows of seats. Like cinema seats, like movie theater seats, right? Like, and then this huge stage. And then there's like the gallery upstairs, which I think was where the students were. And like it was just this like phenomenal space, like so big, right? And um. The production values, you know, the way that, you know, the band was set up and, and all that kind of stuff was, you know, like it was like being at a concert. So, so yeah, that was, it was the scale. And then when it came to communion for the, the, the congregation to take communion, it was a bit like, do you have Rice Krispies over there? Do you know what Rice Krispies are? Yeah. Yeah. Snap Crack little pot kids. Yeah. Yeah. You ate the Rice Krispies and at the end you had a, you had, you had milk in a big glob of sugar. Yeah. But when you, but you remember snack, snap, crackle and pop. Yeah. You pour. So when everyone's opening the things, it was like being, you know, opening the little cellophane wrappers with the. The thing, it was like being inside a giant bowl of Rice Krispies.'cause all you can hear is this like ch ch ch ch ch all over the place. I mean, that was the thing really that impressed me about, you know, it was awe inspiring, was just the scale of it really. So I think you, I mean, look, Mississippi's Bible belt, right? So like you've got a really high concentration of believers there, right? Um, so yeah, just the number of people like church was very much an a part. Of everyday life there. Whereas over here it's not like that, you know, there is a revival and like our, our younger people are Gen Z, like, you know, they're, they're more of them are going to church than I think, you know, for, for many decades. Right. So there's this huge revival in the church, which is probably worth talking about why that is. But, um. Yeah. That those, you know, that's certainly, like, that was my experience over there. Yeah. If you went long enough, you would have, I actually do a bit in my comedy show about those communion cups, because if you go long enough, you're gonna have one Sunday morning where they get a batch of those cups that won't open. And so, you know, they doing communion, the spirit's moving, and then we're, and then the pastor tells everyone to open and nobody can get, can get the cup open, you know, the little plastic top on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And everybody starts struggling on it, and then the pastor has to get up and make an announcement. It's like, okay, uh, we're having a little trouble with, uh, with our. With our communion cups. Uh, if we could have one of the women, any of the women on the aisles have a file, if you could just pop that and pass it on down and it's, uh, you know, we had to try a different vendor. We, you know, try to save some money. If everybody was tithing properly, we wouldn't have to do this. It's just, oh, it's just like, it's a whole, a whole episode and then people are passing their, you know, passing the fall. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To passing the files around to dig in and you know, in Catholic churches they do the actual, um, communion where they. In the Catholic church, you better not be a germophobe because my wife is a germophobe and we attended a wedding at a Catholic church and we get up to go down to go do communion and we all come, you know, and instead of sitting in the chair, we all, you go down along the thing and then the priest gets up and he pours it into a goblet. Is that what you had chalice Alice Goblet? Yeah. All came from me. You know, pours it in there, gives it to the first person, the first person drinks it, and I'm thinking, boy, they're gonna need an awful lot of goblets. No, he wipes it, hands it, you know, pours it and hands it to the next. Catholic church does do, uh, they still do the actual thing, but like you said, in a church that size, you're not going to. You know, you'd be there all day. Yeah. Did you notice? See, one of the things that, at churches in America is you have, you'll have a school, like I have a granddaughter. She goes to pre-K at the Baptist church in a town about 30 miles away. So they probably have a, a preschool at the Temple Baptist. What you didn't see, they also have a gem. Did you see that? No. No. I didn't see a gym. No. If you would've looked on the back. They have a basketball gym, they have workout facilities. They have people like that's where they go to the gym. Is is there. But that is, uh, I don't say that's the exception. Those are, those huge churches are all over the place. But there's all different type churches. Churches that you passed on the way up there. Uh, all did they have the coffee shop? Yes. Yeah, they had a coffee shop. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I've never, because I've never been in the, maybe, I mean, I'm a lot of these really big churches, but I don't go out where the coffee shop is. I've just wondered, do they have like Lazarus. Latte or something out there just to kind of pick you up and get, you, get you through the, the, get you through the sermon. Uh, forgive him. Forgive him, Lord. He knows not what he does. No, it's just, well, it's a coffee thing. I, you know, I, the Catholics do have, have you ever, in all your trips to New York, did you ever go in St. Patrick's Cathedral? Uh, no. No, I haven't. I've seen it. I've walked past it, but I never, I never went in there. Yeah, you ought to go in there. Just a beautiful, although you're from England, so you're not all by the magnificent buildings like I am. You know, you've got, I guess, what's the one that's been there? 700 something years? Oh, we've got Westminster Abbey. Yeah, we've got some St. Paul's. It's very beautiful. At the weekend I was in Suffolk Cathedral, which is just on the other side of the Thames, which is, or do you know what I should know? I dunno how it is, but you walk in and it's, yeah, splendor, statues, gold, you know? Incredible. It's just beautiful. And St. Patrick's Cathedral, I've gone into, um. Just, you know, to go in to see it. It's just this beautiful thing. And then sometimes, like when I was in New York, I would walk up and down, uh, sixth Avenue and it would get really cold in the wintertime and I could slip into to St. Patrick's Cathedral, even though I'm not Catholic. But they have like a full fledge gift shop in there. And I was you. Me, I, I couldn't help it. I stuck my head in there. I'm like, what are, what are y'all selling in here? Popsicles or Y'all got any pope? I was like, you can laugh at that, Richard. I have done that in a Catholic church. And the, it was, and the nuns died. The nuns died laughing. It's every time I do that, every time I do that, people look at me. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What is, but oh, they actually had, um, little pub soaps. Little Pope on the rope in the gift shop. I'm not making up. No, they, they didn't. I I am not making it up. Patrick McCall. I am not making it up. I'm gonna, I'm not gonna lie on the podcast about bringing people to Jesus. They do. I believe you, man. I believe you. You're a little too young to remember this, but, uh, we used to get, in the seventies you had soap on a rope. I just about remember soap on a rope? Yeah. Yeah. I just about remember half one English leather, obviously it was an English thing called English leather. And you got your, you had like some cologne and aftershave and then you had soap on a rope. And I got it when I was like 12 years old. That's what I thought. I'd just become a man. I got it. One Christmas morning I got soap on a rope, you know, like my brother. But I, I didn't realize that you, you hung it around the top of the shower. And then took it off to wash with. I thought it was like a medallion, you know, you put it on your head and walked around like, here I am. Like you in a gang. You know what I mean? Yeah. I'm soaked on a rope, man. Just, but they, they, and I'm clean from the neck up'cause I hadn't figured out I can take this thing off from Austin. Thank you. And, and wash, yeah, and wash the rest down me, but I'm looking good up here. But they did, they had little,, they had little pope soaps and they did. The nuns laughed at that. I've performed in a lot of Catholic churches. Matter of fact, one time I scared my wife to death'cause I called her and said, how'd the show go? I said, I killed the nuns. She's like, oh my god. Finally happened. Pat's gone postal. Yeah. Two. I was like, no, no nuns. No. The nuns loved me. It's just a term. I went to, I went to a Catholic church in Hattiesburg as well. I went to a Catholic church, a friend of mine, he, he hadn't been to Mass for a while. He wanted to go. He, he asked if, if I'll go with him. And, um, it's not my denomination, but you know, the Lord is the Lord. And, um, and also, you know, it's like to turn around and say, oh no, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna go with you'cause it's not my, it's not my thing. We sort of seemed kind of like the opposite of, of, you know what this is about. So I went with him and it was the, the difference there. It was a lot brighter. It was a lot brighter than, um, Catholic churches here. Um, it was just. Same, very much the same sort of service. Um, but yeah, it was brighter. There was a, a brightness to it that we don't have so much over here because a lot of our churches are obviously kind of predate, um, like America in its, you know, current form. So, so it tends to be a little bit more austere, um, whereas this, it was modern, it was bright. It was, but I'll tell you where it was. It was by, um. What's the big university you have there in Hattiesburg? University of Southern Mississippi. Yeah. It was just, it was opposite there. It was opposite there. Uh, was there a baseball field right beside it? Yes. Yes, yes, there was. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's Saint. Uh, I know the one I, I know the one you're talking about. Yeah. That that's been there for, for a long time. But there's several Catholic churches. There's a Catholic school, you know, that was, you tend to stereotype and, and when you and I met, I was assuming all church in England was. Was very similar, I thought, you know, that you just, just what you've seen on tv, Westminster Abbey and you know, you've seen the priest and the robes and then you sent me a video of the church and people just praising and it looked like most churches in America, it was just people in there. It was almost like it was a, just a building. It wasn't even really a stately church, which No, no, that's, so, that's soul survivor. That's, um. A church. I have been attending a lot recently. I'm still. Not, I'm not a hundred percent sure it's my home just yet, but, uh, there's a lot of, there's a lot of amazing things about it. But they, uh, yeah, it's just in a WA warehouse, so it's just, it's like a little three warehouses joined together. They do a lot of cool stuff. They've got, they've got a coffee shop. They do a, they a lot of stuff for the youth and for the kids, but they also, they're a music, they're a Christian music label as well, so they put a lot of music out, so they have. Uh, you know, it's a big, bright, modern worship filled experience there. Um, yeah. Which is, I mean, it is, it is good. Like it, it, it's, you know, it's, it's full of praise and worship it sometimes, I dunno. You tell me what you think about this Pat. Right. This was a point that someone made to me before, but it's like when we worship, right. It's for him. Right. We are, we're, we are worshiping him. Right. And then what can happen? This is how it was explained to me, and it's something I recognize in myself. It's like, you know, when we go to those huge, big, brightly lit, emotive experiences, it's like, it actually, it can become about us. Oh, this feels good. You know, it feels good because I'm, I'm here and I, you know, I get the tingles and it's, you know, it's, you know, it's this, someone says to me, you can end up worshiping that experience, you know, rather than worshiping him. And I, I really. I took something for that. Something I've kind of thought about, but a lot of times in the, you know, in the, in the time that I've been a believer, it's like that, you know what, making sure that we're worshiping the right thing. You know, what you're saying is like when you go to the big production, you kind of think it's like the production's there more for you and then you're instead of their worshiping, is that what you're saying? Yeah, exactly. It, it comes about the vibe. You worshiping the vibe. Sorry, go on. No, go ahead. Well, you worship the vibe. Yeah. You know, you worship the, that's what I was gonna say. Yeah. Like it's, you know, and someone suggested to me actually there's, you know, there's a danger that you could fall into idolatry there'cause you're not actually worshiping what you're supposed to be worshiping. Um, but yeah, there's a lot of great things about that church. I mean, Hillsong, right? If we talk about Hillsong, right. Obviously Hillsong's come in, but, you know, there's been a lot of controversy around Hillsong. Right. But, um. Sorry, you broke up a little Hillsong. Say again Pat, I, I thought is Hills Strong? Is Hillsong is based out of Australia. Yeah. So, but we have them in England as well. Yeah. And like obviously they, they put on a huge, you know, they put on a, a great show. Right. Um, and, and it's a lot of that vibe there. No, I think it's something, you know, that. Pitfall is, you can fall into that Hillsong. But I took a lad, like a, a, a, a, a guy to um, to Hillsong and like he, he gave his life to Jesus there. Right. And there was something about that experience, something within that experience. It just, it hooked him in, you know? And, and I know a lot of people that have got the cost of that. Because of that kind of worship experience, whatev, you know, whatever it is that's being worshiped, it, it's attractive to people, you know? And it was attractive to him and he gave his life to Jesus. And for, and for me, Hillsong was definitely a way in their music. You know? It was definitely a way in. And then I, I realized later that actually I, from a church, I wanted something a bit different, but Hillsong was a way in. So, you know, just, I mean, it's just something, it's just something I think about sometimes, you know, is that, you know, within that. Huge brightly lit production of an experience. Like, yeah, all, maybe it can be idolatry, but like if it brings people to him, is it, who knows? I don't have all the answers, but. Say when you were talking about the big church, it's what, first off, you and I both agree, it is whatever works, whatever brings someone to Jesus, whether it's the big production, whether it's the big people will come and, and, you know, and the, the worship music, it's a lot of, it's great music. Um, but do you know that that is not the majority of the churches in America? The majority of the churches in America are the ones you passed on the way that you didn't even notice. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. The majority of churches have 200 or less people and they're pastored by people like the church I go to, uh, destiny Church in Hattiesburg, Mississippi, pastored by Don Hooper. Fantastic guy. This church is in a converted, it's in a strip mall, kind of like where you went. You know, you're not driving down the road seeing the big cathedral. You have to pull up in there. And it's a con converted strip mall that they've had to go in and they do the work. A lot of these guys, these pastors,'cause people think, oh, these pastors are in it for the money and their stuff. These pastors and most of these churches, uh, the majority of churches, the 200 or less. They have day jobs or they're working or they're constantly working, you know, around the clock. I did a show for a pastor named Will Lot out in Butte, Mississippi, a little small town. We drive out there and I'm gonna wait before I go out and do my show and speak and. He tells me to, uh, here, you can wait in my office. Well, I walk in a minute. I'm like, oh, you said it. Wait in your office. I'm like, I'm in the, I'm in the utility room because it's just full of ladders and paint, you know, and hammers and chainsaw. He's like, no, that's my office. In other words, that was the guy's office because he spent his time working. He helped build around the church. He helped fix, it wasn't this glorious production, but it was a church that just made such a difference in people's lives. It, uh. You know, they, they have things for children. They, it's a, you know what I mean? It's a family. Something happens to somebody. That pastor's there, there's a community that you can go to and I tell people, um. When I run into people that are just really lonely or lost or I messed up and you know, I don't have family or I don't have this, they don't really realize that you go to that church, you go to those smaller type church. They're not small. They're still nice sized churches, but they're not the big glorious churches with the massive productions. But you go to those, good chance you're going to. Meet a family, you're gonna meet people they meet on Wednesday night, they meet on Sunday night. They meet, uh, you know, obviously have church on Sunday morning, but it kind of becomes a family and that is, um. That's the majority of what churches are in America. You don't see it because you see people see what's on tv. You see the big glorious thing. You don't see the guy that's out there that's just, that works as hard as he can. His wife is a part of whatever he's doing. Uh, everything is in there. I remember going over and doing the, uh, one of the first times I performed at a church, pretty nice sized church, and they were paying me some money and I was like, well. What are we gonna give the sound guy and the this, you know, and she said, well, they just, they do it'cause they love the Lord. And I'm like, well that's, you know, we, you know, wanted to give'em something anyway. But the point is, it's not the big huge production. It's the small, the smaller churches make a really big difference in people's lives. And I don't, um. Uh, you know, I don't if it's the big church, if it's'cause you get a lot of younger people that are going, maybe it's because they, you know, they want to,, they like a scene or a vibe or a social type thing. And there are churches, some of the big churches are social. You know, it's a thing where people get up and put their suits on and go and you just, you know, that's, it's whatever, you know, people like doing. The point is. It's about developing a relationship and following Jesus. And in, in America, the majority of churches are 200 or something or less. And it's not easy being one of these pastors because there is a social aspect to churches where, I mean, a guy, some of the people that have been going to a church for a long time and the pastor could move a plant from one side of the. Like the altar or whatever to the other side, half the church will leave. You know, I always like that plant right there. You, I mean, I'm exaggerating just a little bit. Or you'll have the church where you have, you've got, you know, the, this one sister that wants to get up and sing it. Every church that's, oh gosh, he's gonna let Cousin Mary get up and sing and she, she can't sing. So there's always that little thing that, kind of going on and, in some of the churches, but it is the smaller type churches where it's the majority of what you don't see it when you're in America. So it's not just the big, you know, the big glorious type, uh, type churches. And the, uh, oh, and I'll tell you one thing. If any pastors are listening, uh, because I was just thinking I don't, have you ever been to church service where they, where you guys start holding hands? Uh, no. Not a whole hand, hand, hand holding. Well,, it's a thing that can happen over here. The pastor will, I want everybody to hold hands. We're all gonna join in prayer. I just, lemme give a little word of advice to any pastors out there. Let's not be holding hands with strangers. Nobody's thinking of the Holy Spirit moving. Nobody's even thinking of what you're saying. You're holding the hand of somebody next to you and all you're thinking of is, am I squeezing this woman's hand too hard? She think I'm coming on to her. Am I not squeezing it hard enough? Does she think I don't like her? Or did this guy just come out of the bathroom? But it's a, it's a thing where people will join hands. If you're a pastor out there, let's not do, let's not do the hand holding any anymore because everybody in there is totally creeped out about it. Um, more reserved than. You know, like sharing the peace. You do that, right? Yeah. It'll be, there'll often be like a calling in church to kind of turn to your neighbor and like, just you'd say like, peace be with you, you know, but, but it's soul survival. What they do is, um, the church I mentioned earlier, they, uh. If they ask you to go and talk to someone, go and talk to someone like, and, um, so, and, and that, you know, that can feel kind of awkward. You know, you approach a stranger, you know, hi, how are you? But, oh, I've had some lovely conversations doing that. You know, really lovely conversations. Just bowing up to a stranger and, you know, just, you know, how long have you been coming here? You know, how long we've been a believer, you know, that's, that's a nice thing. I like that. See, you and I, that's another thing that we've discussed in the past when we first started going to church. Uh, I wasn't used to it. And that is a thing that, that the beginning of most churches that I go to, the pastor comes up, he reads a script, you know, he reads a scripture or, uh, welcomes everybody and says, now turn to your neighbor and walk around and greet somebody and greet fa, you know? But what happens is the people that know each other will all go greet each other. So the person that's just there for the first time. Doesn't know anybody, you know, and it can be, it can be a little awkward, but they do do that. You know, it's just a normal, all right, turn around and say hello to your neighbor. By the same token, I have been to churches where you'll see that person that understands that and they'll seek you out, and that's where you meet friends. They'll come on their go, see that person is over there. A lot of people will turn, there's a social aspect to church. People will turn and they're immediately gonna go say hello to their friends. But if you're new to the church when you first walked in there, you're kind of sitting there like now is when it's obvious that I don't know anybody that's in here. So you're just kind of standing there waiting to, but there's usually somebody that will come over, like, probably what happens in Soul Survivor and, hi, I, so-and-so, and kind of welcome you to the church. And then you become, you kind of know who that person is from that point forward. But I'm not talking about that, that does happen. I'm just talking about this thing in the church that I always, that it's the pastor will be whatever the message is. Let's everyone join hands'cause we're gonna join hands. Richard, I. Because we're joining in prayer and, and we're joining in and connecting the Holy Spirit throughout the room, but we're not doing any of that. We are holding some by stranger's hand, and most of it, or most of us are creeped out about. I'm just, I'm just. Telling pastors out there, you're holding some, you're holding a stranger's hand. And, that's not the thing where people walk around and do that. But see, in England, I thought. So the churches like Westminster are things like that. They just are those Protestant churches? Uh, well we have Church of England over here, which is that which split off from the, yeah. Catholic. Yeah. So, uh, yes, it would be Protestant. Yeah. Um, and then we have a lot, well, we have a lot of, so a lot of our church buildings are a bit older. Obviously though the kind of more modern churches are in the, are definitely in the minority, you know. Um, but yeah, so our churches tend to, you know, there's a lot of very old church buildings that we have. Very beautiful. The revival that you spoke about.'cause I've heard of that there is a revival that seems to be going on in England. Yeah. And in the past it, you hear, and I, and is there not persecution, discrimination maybe is like, I know there might be a revival, but it seemed like it had gotten to a point when England, when, following Jesus wasn't that cool and that wasn't. I mean, very much so, man. It was like, there's a lot of churches closed. Um, I dunno the statistics, but there was definitely like they were talking for, for, but what seemed like a long time the church attendance was, was, was diminishing like year on year. So there's quite a lot of empty churches, which is very sad. Um, where the congregation just dwindled to the point it wasn't sustainable. Or you might have had three churches that were sharing, one pastor or vicar, you know, whatever you wanna call like,'cause. There just wasn't you, there wasn't enough tithing to support like a church having its own, its own minister. So that was all very sad. But yeah, they're saying there's been this, the statistics are, there's been this huge revival, uh, particularly in Gen Z, um, where like, you know, church attendance is going up and up and up and up and it might. When I'm in Oxford, the church I attend is called St. Al Day's, which is a fantastic church. Um, and they had, they said they were, they were experiencing, people were just coming in and saying, I don't really know what I'm doing here, but like, I just, I just felt like this was where I'm supposed to be. And they had, um, I think they had 39 people give their life to Jesus in one service, you know? Yeah. I mean, I know, right? You know, it's like, what? What an amazing thing. And they evangelize. It's an, you know, it's a church that goes out into the community and evangelizes, but not like, I mean, 39 people in one service and people walking in just off the street. Just like, I just got led here. I don't really know why, but here I am. You know, it's, it's really something. You talk about the Church of England, England, the, just the country of England, ha has played such an important part in Christianity for, you know, the bible that most people read was translated in England. You had, uh, do you ever read on um, CS Lewis? Of course. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. CS Lewis was British a token Jr. Token was British. Yeah, absolutely. Oxford. In Oxford. I grew up. What's that? Well, St. Louis was at Oxford, wasn't he? Was Oxford University when his, yeah, his was, I mean, I don't even know, was it Tolkien? But like, was one of his, um, one of his fellow students said, like CS Lewis said to him, why do you believe in God? He was, you know, and he said, oh, get the tingles. Just saying that. And then his, you know, his fellow students said, you're an academic man, do your research. Do you know what I mean? And then he, he took himself off and read everything and then just came to the point of view that it's like you can't argue with the existence of got. And he did lot. The way he positions the argument. It's really quite extraordinary. Like if anyone's listening and they're exploring faith reading, um, mere Christianity is a really good place to start. Say that again. Mere Christianity by CS Lewis. Yeah, that's a really good place to start. I never knew I, I didn't know he was British. I didn't know he was English. I mean, I've heard CS Lewis all my life ever since I've been a Christian. I've heard, well, CS Lewis. I was like, well this is one of the most brilliant men and, uh. It was something you and I were discussing with Thomas CS Lewis. Was, was English and he was an atheist, wasn't he? He was, yes. And he had that like, well, you might almost call like an academic conversion, you know, he, he assessed all of the evidence and all of the writings and the biblical text and everything from then on, and came to the conclusion not that, um, that Jesus was a man that walks on the earth, which is historically kind of. Very, you know, almost impossible to argue with, right? That a man called Jesus worked the earth at that time. But he came to the conclusion that the argument for the existence of God and Jesus being the son of God was, and you couldn't argue against it, you know? And, um, and the way he writes about it is just, you know, it's, it's amazing. I, I, you know, he really inspired, he inspired me, serious. Lewis inspired me towards my theological studies. He, he gives this beautiful analogy of, um, he says, it's like if you're walking down, you know, along the beach, you know, like down the shoreline, right? And um, you can, you can see this ama, you can see the sea and it stretches out and it's amazing. And the sun sparkling off it and the waves and it's so vast. And, you know, you have this experience, this awe inspiring experience and it's very beautiful. But that's all it'll ever be is the experience. Yeah. But he said if you look at a map. A map, you are never gonna get that same experience out a map. You never will. Yeah. It's a map. It's a bit of paper with some images on it that represent something, but said, without the map, you'll never navigate that. C. All you'll ever be, you'll always just be limited to that experience. And he said, that's what theology is. Theology is the map that allows you to navigate and go deeper into that experience. And that's certainly been my. My experience of, of, you know, the limit, the very diffraction of theology, theological studies that I've done so far. It's just that like, it's like you can't help but deepen, or for me, it deepened my faith. I know for some it can be, it can be challenging, um, unpacking things in that way, but for me it's been like a, just a, a much richer, um, journey into, into my, into my belief, into my faith. And that was all thanks to CS Lewis. Okay. That's awesome. I've just been reading on it. Well, whatever's happened, the journey that both of us on has led us to, has led us to happiness and joy and, uh, we're gonna kinda leave it here. Oh, and as far as the British or concerned you would think it'd be a revival because we all grew up thinking. Jesus was British. The disciples were British. I thought Jesus looked like Robert Powell, the actor, because every movie they have British accents. Even the chosen now, the chosen, the new series that's out all British. That's, yeah. Well, if we think about it, uh, you know, the translation of the Bible, the invention of printing press. Yeah. Yes. CS Lewis. I mean, I guess if I was gonna sum all of that up in two words, pat, for for our American listeners, it would be You are welcome. Well, that's what I was doing, Richard. I was, I was giving you a compliment and showing you my admiration, for you Brits, and obviously you had already accepted it before I said it. So, so now that we've had an exercise in humility, let's see. Alright, well look, it was good to see you. I appreciate you coming in late, uh, late today'cause we had to kind of squeeze this in. So, uh, alright man. Well God bless everybody out there and uh, Richard, I will see you next week. You will indeed. Thank you very much Patrick McCall. Alright, take care. Bye-bye. Take care. Bye.