Ep 15: The Power of Communicating as God Intended

Richard and Pat talk about the importance of how we communicate with ourselves, our loved ones and people we interact with in our daily lives. They discuss that they've learned through personal experience that our words and actions can lift up and encourage, or tear down and destroy. They also point out some of the many verses in the Bible where God is telling us that the way we communicate determines whether we live in peace, joy and happiness or stress, anger and resentment. 

Transcript

Pat: 0:23

And welcome to the two Unlikely Christians podcast. I am comedian and former juvenile delinquent Pat McCool coming to you from the Piney Woods of Mississippi, three miles from a former army nuclear test site, and now all the way to London. England to esteemed psychotherapist and addiction specialist, and a man who once swam down the river. Tim's naked to protest the shrinking size of the Corn Flakes box.

Rich: 0:55

Richard Turrell. That's me. I'm here. Hello, pat. Nice to see you. Nice to see you. How you doing,

Pat: 1:01

man?

Rich: 1:02

Yeah, I'm all right man.

Pat: 1:03

You? I'm good. Everything going good in, uh, in London?

Rich: 1:07

It's all good over here, mate. All good. How about you? Good hunting so far this week. What's that good hunting? The hunting's going well.

Pat: 1:15

Oh, well, it, no. Well, as I've told you, I don't hunt. I'm actually, I'm actually the guy going down the road honking at the deer, you know, Hey, you need to get outta here because Pletus and the F-150 is coming over the hill with, with a$3,000 rifle in a scope. You know, as I told you, I will eat all the beef you want to give me, uh, but I'm not a hunter. I do have a in. What's that?

Rich: 1:44

The moonshine. How's the still? How is it?

Pat: 1:47

Uh, the, that? No still's going. Well. Yeah. Still. Uh, yeah. We'll go out there. Throw for throw, throw a few, uh, throw a few logs on and see what, uh, see what vintage we come up with this, this year. Nice.

Speaker 3: 1:57

And the trailer. Trailer ready for winter.

Pat: 2:01

Trailer. Yeah, we get the trailer ready, we get every, we get everything just ready to, ready to hunker down and, uh, good stuff and survive until spring, we gotta go, you know, you go into town for provisions. Yeah. Because, you know, I live about 30 miles out outside of town. So other than that, we're doing good there. So anyway, today, let us talk about, a little bit of a takeoff on what we did LA last week. You know, we, we wrote something that we read something that, Dr. Beverly Ann Small, well had, had posted and she was actually posting, you know, it was an article or something that somebody had else written a pretty fascinating topic, but she. Posted something else. I'm not just trying to hack, Beverly, but she posted something else that kind of got my attention because it was something that in conjunction what we were talking about and it's about the power of communication and. I also noticed, uh, for those of you who didn't hear the last episode, Dr. Beverly Smallwood is a psychologist here in Hattiesburg, Mississippi. Very well known, uh, renowned just Richard, and I noticed it. I tend to attract, I mean, now my closest friends are psychologists and psychotherapists. Do you think, is there something Freudian going on here or you think I'm just getting free help?

Rich: 3:21

Oh, it could be, you know, we, we attract what we put out. So it might be that as you've grown as a person, become more in touch with yourself, you know, more aware. That those are people that have come into your orbit, you know,'cause they're, they're kind, you are vibrating on the same kind of frequencies as those people. It could be that we all as a group, collectively, maybe unconsciously, feel that you need a lot of help and, um, and want to give that to you, you know.

Pat: 3:54

I think, uh, I wanna say both actually. I, I just, I think there's a sympathy factor on, on both of your parts. And also we do, we do kind of attract,'cause actually that's how you and I ended up getting back together when our, after our first lengthy conversation, it was like, well, we have a passion to kind of help people. So, uh, let's get together and see if we can, and all this time later here we are having this conversation. So. Let us get to the topic, and I'm gonna read what this is, what she actually, posted. And I think she's kind of talking about marriage, but we're gonna, we're gonna cover all of the aspects of communication.'cause the more I started thinking about it, the power of the tongue is, you know, we talked about how laughter affects mood and environment, people around you. Well man, what you say and what you,. Convey to other people and the how you do it is one of the most important things out there. And so what she said was, when couples come to see me at the Hope Center, that's the name of her clinic, by the way, no matter what the presenting problem, I know that work with communication is in order. This is true in every area of life where relationships are important. The abilities to share, listen, and understand are rare intent and impact are often misaligned. This does not have to be biblical wisdom, which we're going to get into'cause there's a lot of it here. Provides valuable guidance. Speak the truth and love. Be slow to speak and quick to listen. Love your neighbor as yourself. Don't make assumptions. Communication has not taken place until the message is received and the way it was intended. That takes an investment of time and attention, but it is so worth it. You have any thoughts on that post there?

Rich: 5:39

Yeah. Beautiful. Pat, thank you for reading that. And um, yeah, I'd to meet Beverly, she an. The other, um, scripture that spray into my mind instantly was, um, and I can't remember the, the reference, but it's, um, you know, like, don't bring your gift to the order while you've still got conflict going on with, with. Like your fellow man, like worse to that effect. And it's like, it's saying that, you know, like, you know, don't come to me while you are still warring and squabbling with someone else. Like, you need to go and sort that out, you know, so it, it strongly suggests it's telling us to, you know, like to deal with our, you know, our differences, our conflicts, you know, I really like that one as well. That's one that's helped me out, you know, when I've been kind of wrapped up in myself and, you know, perceived or, or real kind of conflict or insult. So that really. That really kinda springs to mind and um, just like, you know, we all need connection. You know, be that with each other, be that with ourselves, be that with our environment, and of course be that, you know, in the relationship that we build that we're called to have. With Jesus. You know, we all need that connection, you know, 100%. Um, there's, there's a school of therapy called Transpersonal, which is about spiritual, you know, it's about the spiritual realm, like bringing, you know, spirituality into the psychotherapy relationship. And, and there's this idea that. Somewhere in those early wounds, you, you know, of childhood or even infancy, you know, our ability to, to relate to the other IE like the primary caregiver, you know, gets, you know, disturbed, disrupted, broken, and then that break in relationship means that when we, we grow up and we are trying to connect with, with God. Stock, actually, we, we've lost that, that ability, like it's got impaired, you know? And that if you repair through the therapy, if you repair the ability to relate, to connect. Like in the context of the therapeutic relationship, then actually you, you allow someone the ability to then connect with everything, including God, you know, including the, you know, the wonders of, of having that relationship. And I, I really like that idea. I think there's really something to that, you know, somewhere along the way for those of us that struggled with like addictions and other mental health problems, that that ability to be in relationship has got disrupted. And that is the root of all of all psychological ills. Really. That's the, that's the philosophy. I like that.

Pat: 8:29

I was gonna Well, that's what I was gonna ask you. Was there any clinical approaches and, and you just kind of described that and, uh, that's excellent. I didn't really think about it. Uh, you know, we don't, I don't think we, we just don't place the value on our tongues and what we say. And we had a saying, I don't know if you had this growing up in, in England, but do you remember the old saying, sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.

Rich: 8:53

Yeah. The most. Nonsense. Like the most like toxic, damaging, like problem. And I, yeah, and I remember that being said to me, you know, when I was getting bullied, like, and I was bullied quite a lot. Like it, it was different how it is now. You know, I'm really glad I didn't grow up in the era of cyber bullying, you know, so my bullying largely, it stopped when I got home, you know? Um, and of course now, like through smartphones and devices, it follows people home and it, you know, it's with them, you know, everywhere, you know, and. You know, so I didn't have to experience any of that, but like, yeah, I got bullied a fair bit and um, you know, I was a big kid. I was very overweight and um, and a bit different and soft and sensitive kid, and I got bullied a fair bit and, um, and, and that was, you know, and I reached out for help. You know, and this isn't a blame thing, but it's my parents, they weren't particularly equipped to deal with. A lot of things, right. And, um, they, that that was a big part of what they said, you know, well, sticks in stones may break my bones, but words will never help me. And, you know, the, the record would seem to show based on how my life went off to that, that that may not have been the most effective approach, you know? So yeah. Words hurt, man. Like, you know, there's the, there's a, a story, um, that I really like. I, I got sent it in one of those kind of chain. WhatsApp messenger things a long time ago, and it's about, um, it's about nails in a wall and it's the idea that, you know, when you, you bang a nail or picture hook or whatever into a wall. Yeah. And then when you take it out. You can fill it and you can sand it and you can, you know, repaint the wall and you can do the most beautiful job. But if you look close enough, you will always be able to see the mark that that nail left. And the idea of the story was that actually, that's what, that's what cruel, that hurtful words do. They always leave their mark, you know, no matter how well repaired it is. And I, I think there's really something to that part.

Pat: 10:53

I think that's, uh, you know, as you said, the, the sticks and stones comment was, was total nonsense because you kinda know a doctor can repair a broken bone, but you can say something to somebody, especially when they're young, that you can ruin their life. Tell somebody they're dumb. You know, tell somebody, like you said, I didn't really think about the, you know, the bullying aspect of it, but that's it. You're being told things that when you're young that have an impact on you, and they just last in your, in your mind. I, you know, I wasn't really thinking about that, but that's all part of communication and what, what you're saying to people. The um. It kind of reminds me, and I, I don't mean to refer back to my book, but you, you know, and, and my, my dad, uh, great man, fantastic. Loved my dad. We had a fantastic relationship. But he was that from that World War II genera, you know, end of the mm-hmm. The thing. And they're, they just led a harder thing and, you know, they, they were into the self-esteem with the kids. And my dad would call me useless, you know, if I went out and the lawnmower broke or whatever, you know, use, you know, you were totally useless. Well, what do you think that sunk into me. I, I remembered that that stayed with me, but I just, little words or things that people said, but to the book. I don't know if you remember the story, but do you remember how I was, um. Like, I would come to school late and, and there was one class I went to to history'cause I loved going to history class, but I'd had this reputation by the time I got in the 10th grade that the teacher, I could walk in and outta the school and the teachers never really said anything. The principal actually called me in one time and said, pat, I, you know, I'm not gonna get on, I'm not here to get on to you or anything. We just want you to come to class. I mean, it was, I kind of had that, that reputation and one day. I walk into this, my, my second period class, I would get up and start driving to school and then I would smoke what, you know, on the way over there. And then I'd decide to go to Burger King first, and then I would come walking into my second period class. Well, I had a teacher named Ms. Hudson, little short lady had the, this little bob haircut and. I walked in one day, I, I stroll in the class about five minutes late, and I start walking back to the back to sit back to sit next to my buddy, uh, Scott Graham. And as I'm walking back there, this woman said, well, good morning, pat. And it catches me off guard because I'm like, did she not get the memo? You know that I'm a thug and nobody's, nobody's supposed to say anything to me. And uh, so I just kind of looked at her and smiled and started to sit down and she said it again. She said, good morning, pat. She said, you know, pat, I'm so glad you made it today. She said,'cause there's something about you. I don't know what it is, but I really like you. I'm just. Stunned. You know, I was like, what? What I, you know, I'm thinking you're sending me outta the class. You're telling me this is the last time I disrupt the class. She said, I just think there's, and she repeated it like three times. There's just something about you that I really like. I really like you. And I had this big smile on her face. I can see it like it was yesterday. That comment stuck with me. You know, at that point I just kind of stuck in my head. I'm like, okay, I'm not this thug that I'm trying to act out, and this little woman up here, and she strategically said that. To me, she didn't just get up and say, okay, I'm gonna sit. She's probably thinking this guy, you know, that thinks, you know, that, thinks he's this and she said this, that I really like you. I just really like you. And had this big smile on her face stuck with me. Probably not a month that goes by, even through my troubles. As I kept getting in more trouble, I kept remembering, you know, Ms. Hudson said she, you know, that she really liked me. So there's, there's got to be some good. Inside me. But those things really stick what you say to people and what you communicate with people you know, along the way. The um. Bullying. I didn't really think about that. Uh, man, I'm thrilled. We don't have the cyber bullying, like you said, you could deal with it at, at school, but once you got out of there or you fought in the parking lot or whatever, it was all good. But now there's so many people probably what has led so much to suicide rates and, and, uh, you know, we discussed that earlier, the, the, you know, the massive suicide rates and, but so much is communication and what people say, to others because they can lift people up and they can tear'em down. When, when you're doing, um, your clinical work, do you ever talk about like, what people say to themselves, not just to what you say to to other people? Oh,

Rich: 15:23

yeah, yeah, yeah. That, that kind of internal dialogue. 100%. And, and it's really, you know, those. Those messages that get picked up in childhood. Like they, they, they really stick. And you see that in the way that people talk to themselves. You know, like, you're useless. Why did you do that? What's wrong with you? You know, all those kind of things. And, and actually helping, I think people to like kind of understand where that comes from and start to re reframe some of those beliefs is, is really, really important. Um. Yeah, that's a big part of it definitely is understanding that kind of internal dialogue. And often, I mean, it's, it sometimes those, that internal dialogue, it, it can be really harsh, but it's, it's almost trying to serve a purpose, right? It's like a, it's like if I'm told. Say, I'm told I'm always useless. I'm useless. Right? So, like, dad, always, dad tells me I'm useless, right? But I, I need dad, right? Like, I want dad's approval, I want his love, you know, like I'm wired, I'm hardwired towards that, right? Like I'm, you know, we are, we are wired to connect with our, with our caregivers, right? For survival. Yeah. It's like I'm a little kid. Yeah. Like I'm, you know, and I, I, I depend on mom and dad, like, for everything. Yeah. Like I, I, I can't even reach the tap, the force it or whatever you like, call it. Right. Like to get the water. Yeah. Like food, clothing, shelter, warmth, everything. I depend on mom and dad. Right. So I'm hardwired to try and connect with them for survival.

Speaker 3: 16:50

Yeah.

Rich: 16:50

So I wanna maintain the connection with that. Yeah. So when he doesn't think I'm useless, I get that connection. Yeah. When I'm showing him I've, I've got, use some use. Right. I've got, I'm connected with him, but when he thinks I'm useless, I'm not. Yeah. He's over there and he's angry and he doesn't wanna know me. Right. But very much part of my story too, pat. Right. So you can end up with his voice that's telling you useless. You need to try harder, you need to do better. Do do. Yeah. And actually what that voice is trying to do is trying to protect you. Yeah.'cause it's trying to spur you on to be useful rather than useless. Yeah. So it becomes internalized like that, but that, that actually ends up being a really harsh thing to live with. Right. And then often there'll be addiction on the back of that because it, you know, like having a drink or a drug might be the only thing that allows you. Some respite from this relentless. Like drive to try and do, to try and be useful, you know? So, yeah, like, I mean, look, long answer Pat. Yeah. But like, yeah, definitely try starting to unpack that stuff and understand it and reframe it. I is look of, of critical importance, you know, the way that we relate to ourselves is, is as important as anything else I would say. You know, and of, of course if I'm always just one more word on that pat, right? If I'm always striving to be useful, then it is very difficult to, to be authentically connected to someone because consciously or unconsciously, I'm always trying to be being like a good boy, essentially. You know? And that's not real, you know, that will stop me doing things that are messy or, you know, it's, you know, wanting. To like ask for help, to allow, you know, like, you know, to, to just be like present in relationship.'cause I'm always trying to be this thing that is very hard to do consistently, you know? Does that make sense? So it's not the best, it makes a lot of sense. And

Pat: 18:49

yeah, you, you, you actually took it in a direction that I, because I was thinking what, because when my dad would say that to me, I just shut him out. I just, and I,'cause I thought not shut him out, I just thought, well, I am useless. You know, I was just like, well, that's probably who I am if my dad is saying that. So I think a lot of that people just get into'em that, that this is what I am. I am useless. What difference does it make? So I'm gonna go off and create all this chaos that I did. But what you opened up was, I see this all the time. It can be in marriages, is people going, they're always striving. You know, when they were young, they were made to feel. Uh, you know, that they didn't measure up. I think we talked about it in an episode a while back. They, they've been made to feel that they don't measure up. So they're always out and they're always stressed. I know people personally that are always stressed trying to be perfect because when they were younger, you know, they were made to, they were made to feel that, that they, you know, that they, uh, they didn't measure up. They're always trying to, I had, um. I though when, when my dad said, you're useless, I'm like, yeah, well, I, you know, probably, basically am I'm gonna go get high and do, do drugs and do whatever. I'm not saying that was the reason why, but I, I kind of took it that way. Oh, also, um, you yelling, like if you're raising your voice at somebody, you know that I stopped listening at listening at that point. Mm-hmm. But I just wonder with self, with self talk and I'm, you know, I, this may not be a great analogy, but. It's your confidence in what you're doing. You know what you're telling yourself. You're. Going to do, you know, just like in, in comedy, when I first started in comedy, that voice was like, what if it goes wrong? What if it this? Once I got good at it, I was doing, I'm always like, okay, I'm waiting for this guy just in, in front of me just to be quiet so I'm ready to go up there'cause I'm expecting something good. So as life went on, I developed where I that confidence. But if you're telling yourself things that you know, you may screw up, you may mess up. If you've had that stimuli put in your head, there's a good chance you will. I always think of this time back in, um. When I was in basic training, you know, we grew up in America, uh, and we grew up watching the World War II movies. And by the way, I, I've always wondered, where were you Brits during World War ii? Because all the American World War II movies, we never see you guys. It was just, it was us, you know? Yeah. Nothing about London being bombed. I mean, occasionally you might see a couple. Chaps having some tea as the Americans were going towards the fighting. But if you watched an American War movie, you thought, Hey, it is just, it was just us.

Rich: 21:22

Yeah. Well, I think Pat, there'd be a lot less, uh, war movies to be made. A few lot. I turned up a little bit earlier. That's all I'd, all I'd say on that.

Pat: 21:31

Is that, is that what it's Yeah, could be. Um. But back to my analogy. So I grew up thinking, okay, I, like I said, I don't hunt, but you always mention AR fifteens, I can shoot an AR 15 because the, of course you can,

Speaker 3: 21:46

pat, I mean of course you can, not just because

Pat: 21:49

I

Speaker 3: 21:49

grew up in, it's, it's not kidding,

Pat: 21:53

it's not just'cause I grew up in Mississippi, but the United States Army, uh, actually paid for me to learn, paid for me to learn how to shoot an AR 15 and throw a hand grenade, which is, this is my illustration. I was the, uh, platoon guide and which means I got to go into the, uh, the, the sergeant's office. And I would know what we were gonna do, and I saw where we're going to the grenade range. Well, oh man. To, you know, to, to a, you know, good old me, me and boy, like myself, I'm, well, we're gonna be throwing hang grenades guys, two days. We're going out to the, to the hang grenade range. Everybody's all excited about it because we've seen the war movies and we've seen the hang grenades. So me and my buddy, we go through all this, you know, the kind of training day and then you go up to the actual range where you're gonna throw the hand grenade. So we get out of this truck and we start walking up this hill. And all of a sudden I hear this massive boom boom and the ground shakes and I mean, my behind just, just tighten up. It dawned on me. I was like, wait a minute, is that what we're gonna go, the sound that just happened up there and this ground moving. This is what we're actually going to do. That, that, that's apparently somebody that just had one of those hand grenades in their hand. And I just started, I was sweating by the time I got up there. The whole thing changed. I started telling myself, I'm drawing the draw. Oh, what if I drop it? If they, if I drop it, they're gonna spray me outta here with a fire hose. What if the pen doesn't come outta here? So I'm all nervous by the time I get up there to do the hand grenade, and then I get the hand grenade, I walk down into the pit. And I stand down. The guy says, open the box, and I opened the box and I looked at that hand grenade and all of a sudden I told myself I heard a voice in my head say, you have made a lot of mistakes in your life, but dropping this hand grenade is not going to be one of you. One of them,

Rich: 23:47

yeah.

Pat: 23:48

Just all of a sudden a voice in my head said, there is zero chance you're gonna drop this hand grenade. There is zero chance you're not gonna throw it over this wall the way you're supposed to. The stakes are too high. And once I said that, once I told myself that I got completely calm. Matter of fact, I pulled it out and kind of looked at the guy like, well, you want me? What do you want me to do with it now? I all of a sudden I got cocky because I had just told myself. I'm not gonna mess this up. You see what I'm saying? But my voice in my head prior to that was telling me. Um, you know, good chance, you know, the, what, what possibly could happen. So I, that's why I was just wondering if in, in your clinical research, if you teach people to, to tell themselves, I mean, confidence in life, that, that you, you do, uh, expound on that in your work?

Rich: 24:36

Yeah, like self-esteem work, self-belief, definitely. Like changing core beliefs, changing. But life scripts, you know, there's different kind of angles and different names for it. You know, cognitive behavioral therapy, you know, like challenging the thoughts that we have about ourselves looking for evidence, you know, pros and cons. There's a really nice, it's really basic, but there's, um, you know, it's, it's like an old fact, like old piece of work. It's been around for decades, right? But like, uh, there's a worksheet. A cognitive variable therapy worksheet called the judge and you, you essentially put the things that you tell yourself about yourself. In the dock. Yeah. And then you have a case for the prosecution and a case of the defense, you know, so you would list all of the, you know, same line is like, I'm useless. And you would, you know, you would put all the evidence down that you are useless, right? And like, you, you, you actually, you honor that, you make room for it. Yeah. But in the case of the defenses, all the, all the evidence that actually, that counteracts, that, you know, that goes against that, that says actually you aren't useless. You know, and you know you really like, you really break it down and challenge it, and you help people to actually start to see that the things that we tell ourselves about ourselves are not true and, or they're not like completely true. You know, it depends on the person, right? You know,'cause start with all, you know, I've, I mean I've got, certainly got events in my life I can demonstrate like where I was useless, you know, I was use Yeah, yeah. I, yeah, he was telling the truth at the time. Yeah. Yeah. I was. But I mean, actually let's challenge that a little bit. It's like, you know, like,'cause you broke the lawnmower does not mean you are useless. Yeah. Like you have no use, you know, like it, you know, so it's reframing that and challenging that. And that stuff. And then in terms of that like connection to others, I guess kind of bringing it back around to that, you know, bringing that into focus again is. Like the beliefs that we tell ourselves in the context of our relationships with other people. You know, I, you know, you know, I'm not likable. You know, people, you know, you know people. If I show people this about, you know, something about myself like that I'm vulnerable or imperfect, then they won't want to know me, you know? And so it's like challenging those things as well and helping people to have a different experience in relationships. You know, so you can, challenging all of that, those kind of thoughts and beliefs as well. So yeah, like tons of that sort of stuff really, I think is, is really important. And just general, I mean, going all over the place a little bit, but like, you know, there'll be people, sometimes people come up and it's like, you know, like I, I always get rejected, you know, people always leave me and it's like challenging that, but it's also like. Looking at, well, how can you communicate who you are, what your needs are, what your wants are? You know, like in different ways that actually mean, like you don't always end up in the same situation, you know? But so for me, I know what I've done before and what I'm actually working really hard, um, on, I'm doing now with my fiance. You know, having some, some, some, some success with I'd say is, you know, my thing is when I feel like misunderstood, unheard, you know, slightly rejected, taken advantage of, taken for granted. That's a big one for me. Then rather than communicating any of that stuff, I, I cut off, go within. I just, you know, kind of put up a wall, an invisible wall between me and the other person. Become quite inauthentic. Yeah. And then, but then on my side of the wall, like I'm off thinking about. Doing all sorts of things, you know, looking for the exit, essentially. Right. And, and you know, I've done that, you know, in, in pretty much every relationship I've had up to this point. And actually, so like going against that and learning how to communicate when I'm upset or feel unheard, you know, and all those things. And being, being able to have a conversation about that. Like, and that is how I stay in relationship. And I don't just mean like living in the same house and as the other person. I mean like being in a relationship with them where both sides are turning up and you know, I'm doing my bit to turn up and be me. And that's how I stay in relationship today, which is a beautiful thing to be able to do, even though it's really hard sometimes.

Pat: 28:58

Just takes a long time. When you were, are you saying like you, you would shut down just like shut off?

Rich: 29:04

Yeah. Oh, I could go through the motions. Yeah. And just like put on a kind of like Richard mask, like, Hey baby, you know, da da dah. Yeah. Like, where are we gonna go today? What you need? Are you okay? How's your day? But inside, I'm, I'm, I'm gone. Do you know what I mean? Like.

Pat: 29:19

I did that. Um, when we first got, when Glen and I first got married, you know, I mean, I told you 35 years, don't maybe break the lanyard out, you know, showing my 35 years. Have you been

Speaker 3: 29:30

married 35 years, pat? I've never told you how, you never mentioned. You should have mentioned that, man. You should. Why didn't you say something? I should sh I should've shared that with you. I, I don't wanna sound

Pat: 29:42

like, I wanna be obnoxious and sound like I'm, I'm bragging, but it like Yeah. You

Speaker 3: 29:46

have to gimme a few moments just to take that in. This sound relu revolutionary information. Like, I'm almost right. Oh gosh. I need a, I need a minute cut. You need a tissue? Okay. Yeah.

Pat: 29:59

Oh, got several. Right. Well, I, you know, I say that so our listeners will know where I've got a little, got a little moxie on this, but I, I, I have to tell people though, those years, first years, five, 10 years, we fought all the time. One of the things that I would do though was just shut down. I'm like, Nope, I've had it. And I just, I would. Just shut off. Like, I'm not talking, I'm not communicating, I'm not saying anything. And then, and I think that's kind of what you were, what you were all, uh, alluding to. Uh, I would just shut down. Like, I'm just not speaking. I'm not, I've had enough of this, and I'm going on about my business, but I, you know, we actually, you that's some, Very interesting information of what you were saying about what we were talking, so I I wasn't gonna spend as much time on that, but that's, that's some really valuable information.'cause I was really thinking of in the beginning, is communicating and how we deal with people. In general in public, you know, it's if you can master how you communicate with other people, I don't care if it's the spouse, I don't care if it's family. Uh, I don't care if it's the person you're running into, somebody you're working the way that you communicate, you know, I told, told you the story one day, not on the. Podcast. But when we were talking about how I was literally in the parking lot praying at the gas station, just thanking God. I was having a great day, and a woman pulls up behind me and she's waiting for me to back out and I'm, I'm trying to be nice, and then I look back and I see her, you know, just gesturing wildly like I'm some kind of an idiot. And I went from, uh, holy Spirit to lunatic. In about a quarter of a second, I'm willing to jump out and start hurling and salts at her because, you know, I, I make a living with my mouth, so I'm pretty good at it. And then I just started realizing, you know, why would you want to, to to act that way? God doesn't want us to act that way because in Galatians 5 22 23, but the fruit of the spirit is love. Joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, and against such things there is no law. And you referred to that other, uh uh, just a minute ago. If we're really wanting to follow Jesus and do what God wants us to do, do you really think he approves of me going out there and losing my temper? I didn't say that to the woman, but I wanted to. But in the past I have. I have. Just all of a sudden it just starts coming out, you know, coming outta the mouth, insulting, saying nasty things to people or, um, but with kindness, just being kind and speaking in, in, in gentle terms, just like in relationships. Uh, you're talking about in marriage. One of the things with Gwen and I, and you and I talked about this, you, you start a fight, you're gonna argue over these small things, especially when you get married. You're jocking for a position for years. And then you start hurling insults two hours later. You don't even know what you started the fight about, but now you are. I'm ready to pack the car and head down the road because of all the insulting things that she said to me in response to the insulting things that I said to her. So now we've made an uh, entirely mess. Now we really got something to be mad about.'cause I've said some insults. She said some, some insults. And. It was all over nothing. It was all because of the way that we communicated, because if you're focusing on what it says in Galatians 5 22 and 23 through the spirit's love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness. That's the way we're supposed to respond to people. So when you go out in public, I don't care if it's in a grocery store, I don't care if it's in business, if you always respond in self-control and peace, you're not just going to have a much better relationship with anybody and everybody that you come in contact with, but you're going to be pleasing God. You're going to be closer to God because you now know that you are walking in the in, in the Holy Spirit.

Rich: 33:57

Yeah. 100%. I, I think what I would add to that is, you know, the, I, for me, certainly from my, you know, faith perspective, theological standpoint, however you wanna think about it, is like, it's the fruit of the spirit. Because like, actually it's like when we, when we've got the spirit in us Yeah. When we've like made those steps towards a relationship with Jesus, right? That's the fruit that grows within us. So it's like, actually if I've got Jesus in my life, that's what equips me to. Demonstrate all of those things, you know, like I don't have to demonstrate all of those things in order to be or embody the fruit and to earn his love. He loves me anyway. I have his grace that his, the Holy Spirit draws within me. And if I can contact that and like, you know, if I'm doing the things that help me to remain in contact with, without reading the word praying, spending time with other believers, gonna church worshiping tithing, I think also is part of it for me. You know, like, um. Doing the things right. It's not. I don't have to try and be and embody those qualities, like those qualities start to grow within me because he's with, I'm living in him and he's living in me. You know, and I, I, I can be that or help me to become more Christlike. And it's not that we don't have to try, but it's like having that stuff in me is what motivates me and gives me the ability to be those things, you know? Of course without him. I'm, I'm, I'm none of those things, you know, or I'm certainly capable of being, but I can be horrible. You know, when, you know, when we'd have a, you know, and I've always done this, it's not just, not just, you know, my current lady who, who, who gets the, you know, the, the full Richard to experience. Right? But like, you know, like, we'll have a row. You know, like I say, this happens, you know, universally and my, my relationship history, you know, like, and, and I'll be told, you know, you did this and you did that. And where I go to is you are this and you are that. Like, I'm like, not just a, you know, it stops being a route about like something that's happened and it becomes a route about like literally like the character, the very existence of the person I'm arguing with. You know, like, and I get really, you know, I've left a lot of holes in the wall, you know, and um. In a, towards the start of the relationship. Like at the moment, like my, my partner, she, she said like, when you say those things, it tarnishes our relationship and you never really get that off. And that really stayed with me. You know, it's like when I do that stuff, it, you know, you leave a stain on things, it's very difficult to get off completely. You know? So when you clean a bit of silver Yeah. And you clean the tarnish off. It's very difficult to get it back 100% to exactly the shininess that it was before. Sorry.

Pat: 36:50

What she said is true because there were things that Gwen would for years say, well, you said that. I mean, she, it, it went in her hard drive. Something like, well, you said I was there. I'm like, yeah, but I didn't really mean it and it was coming from this bad place. Uh, so obviously, you know, you've had that, that same experience. Well, what You can't unsay it. You know, once you've said it, you've, you've put it in there and she, as she said, it leaves a stain and then she, you know, she'll remember it in a few years. You know, you end up having to work. So communication, especially in marriage. And before we get into the, some of the scriptures of what God tells us also in marriage, it's just so important to discuss and communicate everything, everything that's going on in your life with it's financial. If it's, if it's anything. So many people in marriage, uh. Keep things to themselves or start, or, or lead separate lives on these different paths. I know situations where people, well I didn't wanna tell my husband this, or I didn't want to tell that the most important thing. Uh, you know, we originally talking about how you talk about and how you, you respond to people, but I think it's just so important to tell people and live a life together in marriage. That's how Gwen and I came together. Did you know I've been married 35 years? And one of the most important things in being married 35 years was that we got to where we just discussed things. Right off the bat, I have a saying, bad news, negative news. I want it quick and I want it straight. She's, you know, if I come in the door and something happens, she's gotta tell me something bad. This is it. Just tell it to me. I remember once in the first four or five years of our marriage, she made a thousand dollars mistake in the bank. In the bank account. I thought I had a thousand dollars more in there. This was back when my thousand dollars is still a good bit of money. But you know, I was just like, you got to be. And she, and she was so reluctant to tell me. Thinking that I was just gonna go off and I was going to, you know, but I didn't. I was like, well. That's all how that happened. And then we just got together and worked through it. What I'm getting at is a married couple. It's us against, not against the world, but it's us doing this thing. And if you think, if you're in a relationship that you don't think you can completely communicate what's going on with your husband, you're not there yet. You're still in an arrangement. Your marriage happens when you discuss anything and everything. Bad news, Hey, I gotta sit down and tell you this. I gotta take the medicine and let's go on. Um, so that might be something, you know, think about as you're going on in your, in, in, in your life. It's a little different what we were talking about, but communication is so important in, in a marriage, you shouldn't ever be worried about if I tell this person what the ramifications are going to be. And if you're having a, if my wife has a, has a problem, it's my problem. If my, I have a pro, you know, and vice versa, doesn't matter who caused it or whatever. That communication is so important, and I think people in marriage, uh, need to realize that you should always, if you've got something stressing you and bothering you, even if it's something you did or, uh, whatever it it is, always discuss it. Always bring it out and always discuss it because if you're married to the person that God put in your life, it's gonna all work out and it's gonna all bring you closer together. So let me read back to what we were talking about, what God is telling us. He says, be slow to speak and thoughtful now. This is James one 19. Know this, my beloved brothers. Let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, and slow to anger. That's back to what he's saying, be slow. If people can just learn to be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow, to get angry, that's really hard for somebody like me and you.'cause me and you are probably carrying uh, you know, and I imagine a lot of other people are. Proverbs 1728. Even a fool who keeps silent is considered wise. When he closes his lips, he is deemed intelligence. Proverbs 13, three. Whoever guards his mouth preserves his life. He who opens wide, his lips comes to ruin. It's God telling us over and over again about controlling our anger, controlling, controlling what we say, and it's just it. It's, he's telling us what, um. What he wants us to, what he wants us to know and how he wants us to comport himself. I mean, comport ourselves. Speak with grace and kindness. Let your speech always be gracious season with salt so that you may know you ought to answer each person or how you ought to answer each person. That's Colossians four six, Proverbs 15, one, a soft answer, turns away wrath. But a harsh word stirs up anger, very similar to what we're what we're just talking about. Proverbs 17, 28, gracious words are like a honeycomb, sweetness to the soul and health to the body. And then speak truth. And for the needy, let no corrupting talk come outta your mouth. But only such as is good for building up as fits the occasion that it may give grace to those who hear, who hear. So he's telling us there, use your mouth to lift people up, not bring people down. Go ahead,

Rich: 42:27

you know. Yeah, no. What I noticed on that is, um, when I, if I'm in like, you know, that little bit of, kind of rattiness, you know, that little bit of, um, you know, na, little bitchiness, whatever you wanna call it, right? I'm not sure how many of these terms translate across the pond, right? But like, same. That little bit of nastiness, you know, and it's like, I'm like, you know, I might be talking with friends or, or even my, my fiance, you know, or did you see that guy? Like, you know, he's, you know, doing this or doing that, or did you hear what he said? Or do you see, do you see those shoes? Do you see those shoes

Speaker 3: 43:02

that guy was wearing? Who would go out the house wearing that? Why would he wear those with that? What bit do you think he put on first? Or, you know, like those kind of things, right?

Rich: 43:10

It doesn't feed my spirit. You know, like it doesn't feed my spirit. Whereas when I can, even if I think those things, if I can actually flip it, say something nice, look for the good in people, or even just as you read out there in the proverbs, right, just keep my mouth shut. Yeah. That feeds my spirit, you know? That feeds my spirit 100%. And another quote. That springs to mind, pat from a slightly different sources. The loudest man in the room is the weakest man in the room, and that is, uh, Frank Lucas in the film, American Gangster. So I, yeah. Good film, by the way. What, what's that?

Pat: 43:50

I haven't, I, I haven't seen it. I don't, I. That, uh, I have the attention span of a gerbil, so I haven't watched a lot. I don't watch a lot of films, but that is true. Um, and finally, just a few more. It says, be mindful of the power of your words. Death and life are in the power of the tongue, and those who love, uh, it will eat. It's fruits, uh, set a guard. And that's, uh, Proverbs 1821. Psalm 11 one, uh, I mean Psalm 1 41. Three set a guard oh Lord, over my mouth. Keep watch over my lips. I mean, it's just got over and over telling us how important how we communicate. And then out of the, uh, Matthew 1234, out of the abundance of the heart, his mouth speaks. So back to kind of what you were saying earlier, what's in your mouth is what kind of comes out. So it makes it easier when you've changed your heart or you've changed, uh. You know, you, you've changed the way you think and you have, have let the Holy Spirit take hold of your life. That will reflect in what's coming out and what you're saying. And also vice versa. When you're not letting yourself getting angry, you're getting more self-control than the Holy Spirit's taken, uh, taken more, uh, uh, more place, more his more rightful place in, in, in our lives. And, uh, one other thing. Communication is not just what we say, you know, it's not just, you know, don't get angry. Be careful of what you're saying to people. Be kind. Always respond. You know, you can say wars have probably started over what people said. If you respond to somebody in a kind way and always realize God is in trouble. And I think what's happened when you and I and both of our lives is the more peace that we ha have gotten all throughout our lives. We know Jesus is in control of our lives. I don't have to win some argument with somebody. I don't have to make my point. I don't. It's not getting me anywhere. You, you wanna live in peace and harm, in harmony with the Holy Spirit. Speak gently. Speak kind, especially to those that you love. Encourage people, lift people up. You know, tell the, the young person I talked to, I mean, I talked to this girl this week and she was. Saying, I, I just feel like a horrible person. And then she started listing those things off and I started asking her some other questions about herself, and I was like, wait a second. So you did this and you did that, and I noticed that when you walked in here, the way you created this person and you had a smile on her face. And I started listing all these things and, and she just lit up. And then we started having this conversation about God, about, and she, I mean, the girl was almost in tears. She just never really thought about that. She had a traumatic life. She started telling me, well, it was kind of traumatic growing up. Yeah. Well, people probably have probably always told you about the bad part. Well, yeah. I'm like, no, I've just observed all of these great things about you, and that's who you really are. See that big smile on your face, that's who you are. And it was ironic because God had been tapping on her shoulders. She said, you know, I've been thinking more and more about God. And then I was like, yeah, well maybe our conversation wasn't by accident. So, and it's not just, um. It's not just verbal a lot of times, like road. Do you guys have a lot of road rage in, uh, in England?

Rich: 47:05

Which road? Road road

Pat: 47:07

rage? Do you know what road rage is? Road rage. Rage?

Rich: 47:09

Yeah. No, we have a lot of road rage in this, in this country. In fact, I, like, I, I'm, you know, at least in public Clark, pretty calm. Um, you know, behind closed doors. Not always, but at least in public, fairly calm. But one thing that will get, like, I've stalked people, you know. You know, like, you know, like, like, you know, like just raging about and like, I can't fight, you know, like far from it, you know what I mean? Like if actually, you know, the one of these encounters ever came to something, but like when someone's like, flipped me off or, you know, whatever, like because of some. Poor decision I've made on the road, like I con consumed with rage, you know? But, you know, I mean, I've never got outta the car and beating anyone up, but, yeah, no, there's plenty of that. Like you see, you see plenty of that on the, on the UK roads. We have a lot less gums though, so it, it, it, that makes it, it puts a very different slot on it.

Pat: 48:03

Yeah. Not pointing the, the ar starting popping off rounds.

Rich: 48:06

Yeah. When I was in Mississippi, I was, you know, fascinated. I'm fascinated by like gun culture, you know, and I was driving down the road with a friend in a, you know, who had a very large, very large truck. Um, you know, the size of some, you know, like people live in smaller apartments than that. In, in my country, that's a status, that's

Pat: 48:26

a status symbol in Mississippi that don't, don't show up in the m bmw in the Benz, you show up in the Ford F two 50 double cab, there's a successful man.

Rich: 48:35

Yeah, I'm fascinated by gun culture. But, um, the, you know, the, I was asking my friend about it and he said, oh, I always, you know, I always carry a gun. I'll feel naked if I, if I haven't got one. And, um, I said, can I ask you a question? And he said, yeah, yeah. And I was like, why? And, um, and he. He's, you know, he spoke about, you know, obviously it's culturally very different and you know, there's a lot more threats from other people that have got guns, so you carry a gun and you know, so on and so forth. Right. But he said a polite soci, an armed society is a polite society. So it really gave me something to think about. Yeah.

Pat: 49:12

Something, uh, because, you know, there might be, might be consequences if you say something to, to the, to the wrong person. I stopped having bro offs in, in bars when I was young. Uh, you know what a bro off is? You know, you have no intention of fighting a guy, but. You're going to show everybody how tough you are.'cause I was in a bar like when I was 19 years old, and I saw this guy mouth off to this other guy that I knew was a really tough hombre in the town that I lived in. And about three minutes later, this guy was on the floor. There was teeth on the ground. I mean, I, I don't wanna get gr but it was, I was like, oh my gosh, this is what could happen if you say the wrong thing to the, to the wrong person. So I kind of, um, I learned to don't, don't, uh, don't let my alligator mouth. Uh, you know, get, get me in, get me into trouble. But yeah, on the road rage, that what I was saying, a lot of times it's because. We're assuming that this person is intentionally disrespecting us. You know, it's like you said, it's just the way the person reacted. In Mississippi, people are very pa in the south, you're very, very polite. Somebody pulls up, you'll let them go. If the, if the gr, if the, the light turns green and the person is on their phone, you give it a little love, tap on the horn. You know, like a little PPP just hate light green up north. You know, when I was living in New York, that's not the case. In fact, no. Mm. Eh, eh, I mean, if the light thought about turning green, just, eh, they, uh, you know, it was just a, it was an aggressive type thing, but I just think a lot of times we assume, and I meant to mention that earlier in all other conversations about personality and relationships, and, uh, we do a lot of, assuming you assume that this other person is coming from a place that they're not, that will get you into a lot of trouble. I see the Richard brain going, or you're about to say something.

Rich: 51:02

I was just, you were talking about the difference between driving in the South and driving up in New York. Right. And um, when I moved, I was, as you know, I was living out of London for, uh, you know, just under a year until quite recently. And, um, so in London you, you drive in a certain way, right.'cause you, you know, like you, you need to, you need to put out on people, you know, you need to, you need to push in, otherwise you're, you're not gonna get anywhere. Right. And, um, and then I was living outta London and, um, I. I had this moment where I needed to, I was in the wrong lane. I needed to get into the next lane, you know, to, to kind of come off where I needed to come off, right? And I, I looked in my mirror and I was like, yeah, I can make that. And I shot out. And the guy behind me, like B, like, what are you doing? Know what I mean? And I, and I, I realized that actually, like if I'd waiting for him to go past, there was nothing but emp empty his face behind him. You know, all I had to do was wait like two, two seconds. Yeah. And I, I thought actually, I don't, I don't need, this is perfectly normal in London, what I just did, but like. I don't need to do that. I don't need to drive like that here, you know? And, um, but then he bited me and he was again, and he was obviously quite unhappy. So then I stalked him for a bit, you know, then I stalked him for a

Pat: 52:11

bit. You tailgating him a little bit. Well, well, a, a lot of times though, like I said, you, you, um. You, you assumed that that person cut up. That person might not have even seen you or whatever, but you're assuming that you just got disrespected. So,

Speaker 3: 52:29

yeah, and actually even just thinking about it now, actually, it's probably like a bit shaken

Rich: 52:32

up. Do you know what I mean?'cause he'd had to slam his brakes on to avoid a collision.'cause some guy in front of him has just made a completely unnecessary maneuver. You know, I'm actually, that's very different, isn't it? It's a very different slant to, to put on it. But yeah, anyway,

Pat: 52:47

I, yeah, I, I just, I, I've always thought that, but it's still, it's communication. If you can, you know, if a person can master what we're talking about today and the, the scriptures that we read, that this is what God's telling us. He's telling us how important communication is, but I've just learned that you can add so much peace. To yourself, to your life, to those around you. You can be an uplifter, you can be an encourager. Uh, and also what you're saying to yourself. So, uh, the tongue and communicating verbally and non-verbally, uh, is so incredibly important that if people. Paid attention to it and learn to master it. It will help you tremendous, uh, tremendously in your life. And I think we can leave it there. Rich, uh, do you have any final thoughts or

Rich: 53:35

that's it, Patrick. That's it. Nothing more for me today. I think thank you for sharing what you shared about, you know, those experiences with your father. I was thinking, um, that perhaps another, an alternative title for this podcast could be the, um, the secret psychoanalysis of Pat McCall. You know, as each session goes past, I feel like, you know, like you, this has given you space to really start to unpack some, some things about, about your childhood and, um, so. It's been, you know, it's a worthwhile endeavor. Even if we all, even if all we are doing is giving you some, some, some free counseling between me and Beverly.

Pat: 54:11

That's me

Rich: 54:12

and Beverly.

Pat: 54:12

Yeah. Y'all, you're, you're getting, you, you're on to me there. Rich. You, when, when we get to episode 100, I'm writing a book and this is all, I'm just working the angles here, you know? I'm working. Are you, are

Speaker 3: 54:24

you, are you even putting these out?

Pat: 54:29

Yeah. I didn't even check. I'm not even publishing these. I'm going in analyzing, pulling the laptop up, you know, sending draft to Simon and Schuster. I'm like, I'm working on it. I'm like, this guy is giving me all of this stuff for

Rich: 54:41

free. It's gold, man. It's gold.

Pat: 54:43

It's, you know how much he charges an hour and he just comes on here for like a half hour. I'm taking him away. I'm probably causing trouble in his marriage, you know? He said, but uh, but it's all gonna pay off from them. I'll give him a little credit down, down at the bottom off credit, you know, Richard Turrell. So, uh, so there it is, man. Well, I do appreciate your time. Uh, say hello, uh, to your lovely bride and we will see you next time. And to everybody out there, uh, encourage somebody. Watch what you say and watch how you say it and watch what you say to yourself and how you say it and you'll see your life improve exponentially. That's a big word, rich.

Rich: 55:22

It is a big word, pat. Well done. Well done man. Proud, proud of you, brother.

Pat: 55:28

I'm working on that too. Alright man. We'll see you and God bless everybody out there. God bless. Bye.