Ep 16: God is Not Mad at You

Pat and Richard discuss the common feeling that God is not pleased with us, and we don't deserve or measure up to His love, because of what we've done in the past or are not doing now. They relate through personal experience how wrong that is, and that God's love is unconditional, and He takes great delight in us regardless of our past or present shortcomings.

Transcript

Pat: 0:23

And welcome to the two Unlikely Christians podcast. I am comedian and recovering buffoon, pat McCool. And, now across the pond to Esteem Psychotherapist and Addiction Specialist, and the man who was the inspiration for all of Adele's love songs. Richard

Rich: 0:44

Turrell. That is a nice introduction. Thank you. Um, yeah, they never, they're always quite tragic, aren't they, though? Adele's love songs, you know, so I don't generally they're not always filled with, um, with Joy. Anyway, um, yes, here I am, Patrick recovering, um, uh, recovering. Punctual person today, so sorry for being late, but here we go. And, um, that,

Pat: 1:11

That, that's quite all right. You got a lot going on. You got the marriage coming up and you know, I was, I was, I was thinking about you last week because didn't you, didn't y'all just were just getting your jewelry for the wedding, right? The rings? Yep.

Rich: 1:23

Yep.

Pat: 1:23

Yeah. You weren't in Paris by any chance. Last week,

Rich: 1:28

were you? No, sadly not, man. Sadly not. Um, you weren't like hanging around the Louvre or scaling walls. No, no, no. You'd have just got a nice fact checking the post pattern, like, you know, it was fun while it lasted all the best, you know, um, take this in lieu of any future royalties. Yeah. And, um, I'd be off, I'd be living in like a bait, whatever, you know, like on the sea base. Like a James Bond villain. I think I'd, I'd probably want one of those, you know, and it would rise up on legs from time to time. Um, but yeah, no, no, no, no. Jewel, no, no priceless jewels, um, being kind of separate take, you know, separated outta their, um, their housings and divvied up in the back room. That's not happening, sadly. Well,

Pat: 2:14

I was gonna ask now, what do you call the, the bathroom in, in England?

Rich: 2:19

Well,

Pat: 2:21

it says the loop.

Rich: 2:23

Well, no, there's different with one of them may, I dunno if you wanna write some of this down, but, so one of the names we had for the bathroom is the bathroom. Yeah. But right one like, but that refers to a room with a bath in it. Yeah. Right. So that's, that's how we define a bathroom. So it would be a room which contains a bathroom. It's obviously, you use it to describe like the room with the toilet in Yeah, the water closet. Uh, you would see the initials wc. Still occasionally to describe a toilet, but we wouldn't, that is not like no one, like if you said, oh, excuse me, where's the water closet? In a restaurant like me and my prospective father-in-law and fiance,

Pat: 3:06

if I'm over there, if I'm over there trying to sound cool and international. That's not gonna work.

Rich: 3:11

Uh, no. You just, you honestly, you, you wouldn't, you wouldn't. I, I, I was going to, I dunno what you word to use to describe you, like what you would sound like. Probably none would be particularly suitable in this forum, but yet, no, you would definitely not sound cool. You would sound probably strange. People would look at you. You would probably, as you came back from the toilet, once it worked out what it was you were asking for, you'd probably notice the weight is whispering to each other and pointing at you. Um, yeah, and the bill would arrive on your table as the last bite into your mouth. I think that they'd probably be quite glad for you to leave at that point. Yeah. Classic British hospitality,

Pat: 3:51

right? But the LUV is not the name for a bathroom.

Rich: 3:55

LLO.

Pat: 3:56

Oh, the l

Rich: 3:57

Oh, the lu not

Pat: 3:58

the lu. Yeah, yeah,

Rich: 3:59

yeah, yeah. No, no. The lou like, I'm gonna just gonna go and use the Lu. Yeah. That would still be something that was said.

Pat: 4:05

Yeah.

Rich: 4:05

I got

Pat: 4:06

Well, I see, I knew that wa I knew that wasn't you, uh, doing the heist. I, it was actually, you know, it's a Frenchman that did the heist because it didn't happen until nine 30 in the morning.

Rich: 4:18

It is that, yeah, there's that because, you know,

Pat: 4:21

the French want that, that work, that, that life work balance, that's, Hey, we're gonna pull a major, you know, you know, priceless, millions heist. We just don't wanna start too early. How about, let's go over there about nine 30.

Rich: 4:34

Nine 30? Yeah. After some coffee, you know, a croon, you know, a couple of, like couple of cigarettes and a pavement cafe, you know. A lot

Pat: 4:46

of stress on herself. I think if Ms. Prince or Americans, we'd at least try, we at least tried it, you know, maybe six or seven before everybody got in there. But, um, still a pretty amazing thing. So, um, well anyway, glad, good to see you there. So today what we want to talk about, um, is our topic is God is not mad at you and we got this as, uh, from. Someone I mentioned in our last episode, this girl that I was talking to that had, was we started talking and she was telling me. How she was feeling bad about herself, that she felt like, you know, God may, you know, she wasn't measuring up, wasn't doing enough of this, felt like, you know, the things she had done in her past, you know, God would be mad at her, this type of thing. And, uh, completely stinking thinking because absolutely none of us measure up. To God's love. Uh, it it starts. As a matter of fact, Jesus' most important commandments, pretty much left us in a position where we can almost never fulfill. You know, what he needed us to do? If you remember when they asked him, uh, teacher in, uh, Matthew 26 36. 39 teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the law? And Jesus replied, love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it. Love your neighbor as you love yourself. Well, right there, he just laid out two things that I don't think we can do. We aspire to'em. We aspire to love the Lord with all God, with all our hearts. I don't know if we, you know, any of us achieve that, but loving your neighbor is yourself. I certainly don't do, I aspire to it. Mm-hmm. But I don't. Mm-hmm. So, so the point is, I, I started telling this girl, you know, all of the things, you know, my past, this type of, of things pointing out to her. Um, anyway, you had something that you wanted, you wanted to read for us, and then we'll go from there.

Rich: 6:50

I mean, I guess just to respond first, to give it a little bit of context, like Yeah, I mean, it's something I've heard again and again and, um, you know, I've sat with guys, you know, in the course of my work and, and you know, I'm friends and you know, people kind of trying to make their way into recovery. And um, you know, I've heard it word for word. It's like I don't measure up. I've broken, I've broken up nine outta the 10 Commandments, you know, and I, you know, I've sat with a couple of people who broke all 10, you know, um, or at least willing to admit it. Um, and it's so, well, how can I qualify? And that it's the. It's a difficult thing to get across. It's like that's the whole point, you know? That's the whole point. You know, and it's like we call ourselves two unlikely Christians. Right. Actually, we're the most likely Christians there are.'cause we were like lost and broken. Right. And that's who we came for. Right. So it, but it's a difficult thing for people to wrap their head rounds, but their heads round and, and I think some of that gets perpetuated in kind of like modern Christian dialogue. You know, it is like this slip back towards. I call it like neo legalism, you know, that you have to be, you know, bright, positive, righteous in order to get, earn his love, right. Whereas actually the whole point was like, you can never be those things like consistently. Right? And he comes, you know, he came to love people like, you know, in their like imperfections and their brokenness and stuff like that. It's like, you know, he says, um. You know, you don't call a doctor for the, well, you know the, you know, the doctor comes for the sick. Right. So anyway, there's a book, I've mentioned it in earlier episodes. It was a hugely influential part of me really not coming to Christ.'cause I was already a Christian. I already believed I'd already been baptized, but. Stepping into a personal relationship with Jesus and realizing how much he loved you. This book, which is a book called The Rag Mucking Gospel by a guy called Brendan Manning, uh, who died in 2013, who I would highly recommend, um, people look at his, his stuff. There's stuff on YouTube. He's wrote a number of books like. Anyway, fantastic. Huge part of my journey. And, um, the first chapter in the book talks about this modern church culture that is not universal, but can be observed, where it's like you have to be X and Y and z, you know, that's what a good Christian is, right? And, um, you know, he talks about that and that the chapter is called something is radically wrong. He's talking about that culture and he talks about how the, the message of grace and love has got, has got lost. Right. Um, in some quarters. And then, and so this is an excerpt from that that I'd like to read. And it says, I'll get quite emotional reading this part, right? It says, here is revelation. Bright is the evening star. Jesus comes for sinners for those as outcast, as tax collectors, and for those caught up in squa, choices of failed dreams. He comes for corporate executives, street people, superstars, farmers, hookers, addicts, IRS agents, AIDS victims, and even used car salesman. Jesus not only talks with these people, but he dines with them. Fully aware that his table fellowship with sinners will raise the eyebrows of religious bureaucrats who hold up the robes and insignia of their authority to justify their condemnation of the truth and the rejection of the Gospel of grace. This passage should be read, reread, and memorized. Every Christian generation tries to d the blind and brightness of its meaning because the gospel seems too good to be true. We think that salvation belongs to the proper and the pious, those who stand at a safe distance from the back alleys of existence, clucking their judgments at those who have been soiled by life. And I mean, for me, it's all there like, it's like. It's like he came, you know, my, you know, I, I, I truly believe that if Jesus came today, right, like if he walked among us today, where would he go and sit, you know, like, you know, we don't have. Things the same way as they were then. Right? So, you know, back then he, you know, he, he stopped with like lepers and the la and women that had bled for years and, you know, these people that were outcast, right? Where would he be today, pat? I really believe he'd sit in, he'd sit in the crack houses. Do you know what I mean? He'd, he'd walk down the streets where women sell themselves for sex to pay for their next hit. You know, he'd, you know, he would sit with the people that no one else wants to sit with, you know? I really believe that. So that's something I'm pretty passionate about. That's why when you asked me if I wanted to do this topic, I was like, yes. Hard. Yes.

Pat: 11:24

That's fascinating. That's Brendan Brennan Manning.

Rich: 11:27

Brennan Manning. B-E-B-R-E-N-N-A-N, and then Manning, M-A-N-N-I-N-G.

Pat: 11:36

Well, bobble pretty, pretty much clearly. It illustrates what, what you just said because that's who he, that's who he did hang out with. That's who he did come from. Uh, like you said that the doc doctors don't go after the well. And as I, I told this girl and this girl had not had a lot of transgressions in her life. Matter of fact, she had a lot of trauma also. And, uh, so she had reason for some of her rebellion. And I just started listening, uh, listening to her. I was like, you know, she was 22 years old. I said, you know, by the time I was 22, by the time I was 18, I had, uh. Burglary, shoplifting, DUIs, stolen cars, selling drugs, public, drunk, all of these things. And I pointed out to her, I said, and not just, but those weren't the, those weren't the bad things. I was fortunate by God's grace not to. Personally hurt anybody. When I did, when I was doing all those things, but I said where my own personal regret is all the people that I hurt along the way by the person I was. I mean, I actually went out and, and used people, not intentionally, you know what I mean? When you're going through the, the, the chaos of your life and you're doing the drugs and you are at the blow end of the totem pole and you're just trying to, to find some, um. A bit of a way out of your disparity. You use a lot of people and then you hurt a lot of people. And I was explaining to her, I was like, I have, she was like, well, I have regrets. I'm like, well, I have regrets. I was like, I stop and think you don't go out and sin and do these things and not. Regret what you did. But what you do is you escape the punishment by following Jesus because he went and paid that price. God sent his son to pay that price. So that's all that, you don't have to pay that anymore. Yeah, you're gonna stop back and think if you hurt people or you did some things like that along the way. But, uh, the fact is God loves you as his child. And he illustrates that all throughout the Bible. And she was like, well, sometimes I think I don't, I don't put enough. Faith or, you know, there are things God has done in my life and then I don't trust him. And I kind of explained to her, I said, well, yeah, well, I've always, in my book, I characterize myself as like Elijah. Remember Elijah, God did all these incredible miracles. For Elijah, all of these unbelievable. He brought down rain. He, he fed him with birds and ravens and all of these things. And right after he's done all these things, the second something starts going bad for Elijah, he's sitting under a tree and crying out to God like, oh God, you know, you've, you've left me, or, you know, you've left me here alone. And that's kind of, um, that's kind of how I, uh. Looked at myself there, but I once, I just tried to explain to her that this is, I, I've done far more things in my life than I've ever done, and God has given me more joy, more peace, more happiness than I've ever deserved. So it's not that you're going to earn it, you, Jesus, earned it for you. Put your faith in it, put your faith in him. You were about to, to have a thought there.

Rich: 14:45

Yeah. It's um. It's all through the Bible, isn't it? Like people like the apart, like the disciples rolled around with Jesus. They watched him perform miracles. They watched him walk on water. They watched him feed 5,000. They watched him feed 4,000. You know, they watched him do, you know, heal, you know, bring the dead back to life. Yeah. They watched him do all of those things, right. And still they weren't sure, you know? Right. Like, right. Like he, you know, by the end of like the gospels, he's saying to them like, don't you get it yet? Like, do you, you know, you that dull, like, are you so dull? That's, that goes through my head sometimes when I'm in my own doubt and my own lack of faith and my own. Like, you know, like, I know he is taking care of me in this way, this way, and that way, but like, I'm not gonna, you know, what about like, maybe I, you know, what about this? Maybe? What about that? You know, like, what if this happens or I don't get enough work, or, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. You know, so on my own doubt, like sometimes that runs through my head sometimes, are you so dull? You know, don't you get it yet? You know, and actually you go right the way back to like, you know, the beginning of the Old Testament, right? Like the first books of the Old Testament. Yeah. You've got like. You know, people that turn their back on, on God. Right. It's like Moses comes down the mountainside. Yeah. And he says like, look, look guys, this is what we need to do. Yeah. Right. So like, don't make any idols and, you know, worship God. Like he's really, you know, that's sort of like a bit of a, that's a hard line for him. Yeah. Just worship. Right. The rest of it we can work on, but just won't give him. And then he got wandered off and they're like, what? What are we gonna do guys? Oh no, let's make some idols. You know, like it's like, you know, constantly. And yet there's the, you know, he's still there. You know, he's still kind of looks after and he's still there and he's still provides for, you know, a bit grumpy sometimes in the Old Testament, but like he's still there, you know, it's like part, you know, and that's kind of why. That's part of our humanness, you know, is that, you know, like to doubt, you know, to, to be angry with, to turn our back on, you know? But he's still there. He still loves us anyway. Right? We're still his children, right? I think about it a bit like this, pat sometimes is right. It's like. So I've been in a number of romantic relationships in my life. Right. And, um, as you know, that's sometimes been a, they're so troublesome area of my life. Right. But it's, I imagine being in relationship with someone that, like, you could get angry with them, you know, you could like turn your back on them, not talk to them for days or weeks or months. Yeah. Just, you know, you could ignore them when they're trying to talk to you. Yeah. You might even, sometimes. Not even believe they're real, you know? And still they love you. Do you know what I mean? They love you just as much, and in fact, you, when you can't, you can cheat on them. Yeah, you can cheat, right? Go away, you know, like, you know, whatever, like worship, false side rules, like the car, the watch, the money. Yeah. So you can cheat in this relationship, you can cheat on the person and then you come back and they actually love you more. Yeah. Like the prodigal sum returns, right? And it's like that's the relationship that's on offer with Jesus. Right? That's the depths of his love for you. Like, and you know, the fact that like you've done bad things is what qualifies you for that love. You know what I mean? And it's not one of us without sin. Right. You know? There is not one of us without sin. Yeah. Like. Let he use without sin cast the first stone. You know? And I remember when I came in, like, I, I thought into faith. Like I thought that was all. Do you mean there's not one of us without sin? Like I've been trying to build up my, like self-esteem and understand that I'm actually not a bad person for all these years. And now you're telling me actually like I'm a, I'm a sinner. Right? But like, actually there's real freedom in realizing that no one's without sin, you know? But no one is without sin. And actually if you go back to the, you know, the origins of the word sin, actually what it means is just stuff that. Disconnects you from God and from God's purpose for your life. But that's it, you know? Anyway, it's talking a lot. Do you know what I mean? But look, as I say, this is something I'm like hugely, you know, it lights me up this topic, you know? Yeah. I see it as such a stumbling block for people, you know? Well, it,

Pat: 19:04

it does me because I run into people all of the time, and that's how they feel. They, they internalize. I don't know if it's Satan. I don't know if it's just us being human. Mm-hmm. A human. Satan, as we talked about in spiritual warfare, constantly telling you, you don't measure up, you're not good enough. Uh, but Jesus is standing next to God and he's our great represent. You know, he's up there speaking on our behalf. And yeah, also because I was reading, you know, if you think about it, some of the greatest rock stars in the Bible. I mean, uh, think about David for example. David had everything. David had the kingdom. David had everything going in his life, had all the incredible blessings of God. And what did David do? David literally went out and committed adultery with one of his soldiers. Actually, his soldier was in battle. He was supposed to be in the battle'cause he was a king back then. Kings rode into battle, but he got so high and mighty, he stayed behind. He committed adultery with the soldier, then she gets pregnant and does he come out and does he confess and does he admit what he did? No, he has the guy killed so adultery and he didn't commit that 10th. Uh. Commandment that, that you mentioned. And I, I think I've hit nine out of 10 myself. Uh, if, if that, if that's one you're talking about. But David did that and God still called him a man, after his own heart and still loved him. And he still one of the greatest people in the Bible that God held up. And you take, Paul, for example, I mean, before Paul became a Christian, what was Paul doing?

Rich: 20:43

What's that? He was called Saul, wasn't he before And then he was killing Christians and you know, like just, yeah, he was like relentless. Really? He was like, like this, like super pharisee, basically, I believe. And he,

Pat: 20:55

yes.

Rich: 20:56

Like yeah, like really like fervent and um, yeah. And was responsible for the persecution and death of many Christians.

Pat: 21:04

He was literally one of the worst. He was one of the people that you would've thought, God, you know, that they would've never forgiven him for that. But they turned around and used him there. There are four books in the Bible written by Paul, a guy that killed Christians. And we got people going out and going through life thinking, I don't measure up. God's mad at me for my past. Or, I don't do enough of this, or I don't do enough of that. And the greatest rock stars in the Bible were some of the biggest, dirt bags at one point in time. Mm. And it's, um, I just just wanna get through people's heads that God loves them, he's their children, and he will always love you. And all those thoughts that are coming into your mind, um, they're just stinking thinking. They're, yeah. It's, it's not real. You're children of God. Do you have any thoughts on that?'cause I have, uh, just a few Bible verses I that I wanted to read on. Uh.

Rich: 21:58

Well, just to talk about Paul A. Little bit really. So actually like, um, just drawing on my little kind of minuscule bit of theological training, so 13 or 14 books of the New Testament traditionally attributed to the Apostle Paul. Um, you know, what's called the Pauline Letters. Um, theological scholars universally agree on seven of them being written by him. Yeah, the others are thoughts have been perhaps written on his behalf. Um, but yeah, seven of them universally agreed to be, have been written by him. So like, this is the guy, like the most prolific guy, most responsible. Taking the, you know, and literally know that his travels like, were like a huge part of that. So he got it to to Rome. Right. As I understand the history, you know, he got it to Roman and the Romans where, because of the empire was hugely responsible for the spread of Christianity around the world. Right?'cause they had this empire so that the information was able to travel from Rome around the world. And also the Romans were. They believed in gods that walked among us because they deified their, their emperors. Right. They're great emperors. So actually to them they were like able to wrap their head around the idea that actually got like, at least it from their perspective, a God could become man and more among us. Right. So like Paul's like, you know, he literally went from like persecuting, like the very people, like in modern terms that would be like me going to my local church. Right. Like murdering people. Yeah. Then becoming like the most prolific person that then carried the Bible to the rest of the non, like to the non-Christian world as it is now. Right. In this hugely affected way. Like that's the sort of like, that's the bar. You know what I mean? Like that's what we are dealing with. Yeah. Like it's that, you know, it's just so, and he talk and Manning talks about it, right? So he talks about, and this is such a great book, but just to like, um. Just to pull like a few words out of that, that bit that I read, again, just to sort of like underline them if you like, it's like every Christian generation tries to dim the blinding brightness of its meaning because the gospel seems too good to be true. And there's a bit, there's this fabulous video on, um, YouTube where they, they sort of take bits of. Manning's, um, speech that he gave and they said it this animation and it's amazing and it's, there's, there's this bit where he, he's talking as Jesus, like as if this was stuff that Jesus would say. And he says, don't for one second mistake. You are paled, conditional wavering, Fairweather only love for each other and the love that I have for you. Because it's almost like we can't understand, like we don't get it. You know? Our relationships that we have with each other are, will always be, to some extent transactional. Right? Like there are things that I can and can't do in my relationship, right? And rightly so, right? There are lines that if I cross them the relationship or. You know, be over. I mean, obviously just about to get married in a Christian sense, so there's a covenant that's made and so on and so forth. But like, it would at least be very, very badly damaged and impaired, right? Like if I did certain things, you know, it's transactional. And our friendships, it's like, you know, if you know there's certain conditions that aren't met in a friendship sooner or later that friendship's just gonna fall to pieces, right? So it's like we have this, you know, our love that we have for each other. As much as we might not, not, might not want to think it is conditional, right? Yes. His love's not like it's unconditional, right? Like once you've been saved and repented, then things get slightly more complicated, right? But you'll still be loved, right? You'll still be loved, right? And it, but it's like we. It's just such a hard concept to understand, like it's a hard concept to fully grasp as Christians, I think. Yeah. That's like, it's a hard concept to fully grasp, which is why that message gets a little bit lost in some quarters. Right. But like, yeah, to a non-believer, it's just like, look, like you might not be able to understand this. But like you, just, you, you are loved. It doesn't matter what you've done, like it does not matter what you've done. Right? So me and my fiance are doing an alpha course at the minute, which you have in the States as well. It's that introduction to Christianity. I never did one. And I talked to friends about doing it, and I just, and I've moved to a new area, so I thought it would good. What's it called? The Alpha course? Um, A-L-P-H-A. They use it in the States, obviously not, not necessarily super widespread. Is it a merge thing or just No, it's an introduction to Christianity. Right. Um, so I'm doing it because. I'm new in the area. I never did one. I talk to people about doing it, but I've never done one. So it's a little bit like being a driving instructor that doesn't know how to drive. So I've gone to do it, but there's this bit, the most powerful, one of the most powerful testimonies I've ever seen is a guy who lives in the north of England, you know, now has his own church. He's a pastor, you know, has brought loads of people to Jesus, right? And he was like, he was a prisoner for a long time. He was that dangerous with him. He went in for attempted murder. He was that dangerous within prison that he ended up, there's a certain category of prisoner, they're in a cell on their own, like anyone that deals with them wears full body armor because they're that dangerous. They'll attack the wardens and stuff like that. And he got saved. Yeah, like he got saved. This is the guy that was, was that dangerous prisoner guy. Yeah, yeah. He got saved, you know, anyway, so it's like, look, it's on offer for everyone. Do you know what I mean? Like just, you know, try and, it's just important to try and open your mind and wrap your head around that possibility that no matter how bad that, that you think the things you've done, or he's here for you, man, that's here for you.

Pat: 27:52

That's an excellent point. That is an excellent point because it's unconditional love. I think they're called agape love and our, as human beings, we can't process that. So we always think that God's thinking like we are so in a relationship, we've always gotta be trying to, you know, do what the other person wants, or to measure up. God is not that way. And I think that's, uh, I think that's very hard for us to, you know, in the Bible it says, God says, I don't, I know what the scripture is, but I, you don't think I'm paraphrase, but you don't think like me and I don't think like you. So it's hard for us to understand how a, being a creator of the universe. Our Heavenly Father loves us the way he does, and you just want to encourage people to, to know that God loves you, he's there for you. You put your trust in him. Yeah, there's gonna be things, you can't just go out and do whatever you want to do. You're going to have repercussions for the, for bad things and for sin and for what you do in your life. But God's love never leaves you. And there's a few scriptures that, uh, that di well, there's a lot of scripture. The Bible's full of it, but I just pulled a few of them if I can. Uh. Just to read'em, but it says, but God demonstrate, uh, Romans five eight. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this. While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. It means he sent his. Son, but people still really can't get around that. They're like, well, it's Jesus. No. Jesus became a man and went down and went through, uh, unbelievable torture and died for us so we can have the peace and we can have the joy in the everlasting life that's love for somebody to send their only begotten son. In John three, one it says, how great is the love? The father has lavished on us. That we should be called children of God. And it's an exclamation point. And that is what we are with an exclamation point. I mean, this is, God put everything in the Bible to tell us that he loves us that much. And in Jeremiah 31, 3, I have loved you with an everlasting love. I have drawn you. With loving kindness and then one of my favorites, uh, Zephaniah three 17. The Lord your God is with you. He is mighty to save. He will take great delight in you. He will quiet you with his love and he will rejoice over you. With singing, that means he literally is rejoicing over you. And that's hard for a human in our minds and our thought pro process to get around. And everyone should know that you literally have a father. I used to always. As I was coming along and I would stop and think and I, I would picture,'cause none of us know what God looks like, but I would picture something, you know him with a stern look towards me. Mm-hmm. The closer I've come, the more I've come to understand him and the more I, I've, I don't forget all of the things that he's done for me in my life. Like that 22-year-old girl, I went back and I started running through. I was like, well, you had a traumatic, how did you get outta that? And I started and she started bringing, I'm like, yeah. How did that happen? Look what happened there. God's been with you and he's been watching you. You're focusing on the bad. You're not looking at all the times. Look at you sitting here right now, that big smile on your face and you, and you're thinking all these thoughts and you're getting your life together. That's where God was bringing you along and he's been there and he's smiling at you. And I, I started getting to the point a few years ago when I would think, and when I would pray, I would feel God smiling down at me not approving of all of my activity, but. I love you, pat. Just like he loved that girl and, and you and everyone else that's listening to us, and everyone should just put that in their heart and carry it with them throughout their daily lives. You have any, uh, final thoughts there?

Rich: 31:56

Just, I guess I'll tell you what I was pondering on was it's one thing to like think. About these ideas. It's another to experience it, you know, to really feel that love. And for me it took a while to get to that, you know, so it was, you know, probably between coming in to like, you know, starting to attend search and the recovery ministry and then believing and then being baptized and then feeling. Deeply feeling that sense of forgiveness and then if, and then kind of actually getting walloped and hit with the love. Right. Took, let's have a little think about this part took about, it was, it happened about 18 months in to the journey. You know what I mean? About 18 months in. So like for me, I guess I'm saying that it's like if you come to church for the first time and you don't feel loved for it, like it's okay, you know. Like it's just open your mind to that possibility. And for me it was like I just had to keep chipping. I felt like I had so much darkness, you know, so much darkness on me. This is how I look at it now. You know, I was so mired in the world and drenched in seen and soaked in shame and shackled. You know, for me that stuff had to be kind of chipped off bit by bit, by bit, by bit by bit. And it was about, I just kept turning up and I kept down to church. I kept talking to other believers. I kept reading my Bible even when it didn't make any sense to me. I kept praying even when it felt absolutely pointless. Right? And then it just, it kind of happened. So now I get to the point, it's like, I don't believe that God loves me and I don't. I think that God loves me and it's, you know, it's not, I don't have faith that God loves me. It's like I know that God loves me. Like I felt it, like I felt it, you know, with such intensity. And I felt it with less intensity many times since, do you know what I mean? But it's like, I know that he loves me, but it took time to get there. So it's like, look, just. Just like keep open your mind to the possibility. Keep turning up. And, um, if you are as broken, half as broke, half as broken as I was, you'll keep turning up. Yeah. And then, and then it, and it just kind of happened for me. So yeah. I just, I guess wanted to say that on, it's like, look, if, if, if it doesn't make any sense to you and you got a church first time a handful of times and it's still, you don't kind of feel that. Like, that's okay. You know, some people go, they get the supernatural experience of the order, you know, day one and, and that's great, but that wasn't my experience and there's nothing wrong with that. Yeah, that's, that's my kind of thought, closing thought, Patrick.

Pat: 34:43

Closing thought. Uh, and as I've told you before, mine was a lot longer than 18 months. I was actually impressed with you because you, you know, I, it's, I think it's in your personality. You were like, I'm doing this and I'm not procrastinating, and you kept pounding. I am one that just takes a long time and mine took years. Years, even when I decided I, I've made a decision to follow God and I, I do think part of it was, you know, I'm, I'm believing in, I'm gonna believe in God. Uh, but I really didn't know in my part, really, it was kind of probably transactional on my part. I'm gonna believe in God'cause I'm tired of these bad things that are happening to me. But the bad things that were happening to me was'cause I was making dumb decisions. I started making good decisions, good things were happening. God was with me, but I still had not turned it all over. God, I, you know, I had not been saved. I had, you know, I'd made a decision, but my heart had not changed until I got to that point. You know, as we talked about when I was in the church and I just gave it all up, that's when the peace, and that's when the joy all came into me. But I took a lot longer than 18 months. But it doesn't surprise me. In your case, you know, you decided you were gonna get a college degree at 34. You just. You just went and got one rich. Yeah. Yeah. And became the renowned, um, psychotherapist and addiction specialist that you are now. Uh, those are great words, rich, and I hope people are listening to us just being encouraged by that. God loves you, he delights in you, and it's hard for our human minds to think about that. And the reason why Richard and I do this is just to encourage people. Because we have been the low of the lo. Like I said, both you're nine and one on the commandments. I'm not, I'm nine and one on them too. And I'm talking to people that think, I just don't know that, uh, you know, God could ever love me because I, you know, it just. You know, they, they, they haven't come close to living some of the lives and doing some of the damage and destruction that you and I did along the way. And that's why we have a passion just to try to lift people up and help them find the joy and the encouragement that, that we have and the trust. So. Uh, great words there, rich. Brilliant as you. You too,

Rich: 36:59

Patrick. You too. I see the

Pat: 37:01

big brain in the little thing coming off the back of your head. It's an r the big brain on rich. So, and brain on rich. Not just that. Very, very thoughtful too. You never really thought you'd be, uh, referred to as that. Richard Tull is a very thoughtful man.

Rich: 37:19

No, that wasn't on the cards, uh, a couple of decades ago for sure, pap. But um, yeah, thank, but thank you, uh, for your kind words and you know, you also someone who's achieved a lot, even though you play your cards a little bit closer to your chest than I do. So there I do.

Pat: 37:37

That I do. All right man. It was good talking to you and thanks for everybody joining us and may God bless you all out there and we will see you next time. Take care, rich. Oh bless man. See you later.