Ep 21: Come as you are - change comes after

We don't clean ourselves up to reach Jesus. We come as we are, and His grace transforms us into people who live differently.

Transcript

pat: 0:23

Good morning, good afternoon, good evening to everyone. No, ma, no matter where you are. You're very welcome to the two Unlikely Christian Podcast, and in a change from our scheduled programming, I, Richard Toll. I'm going to be leading tonight's episode, leaving Patrick McCall or Pat McCall. See, um, likes to be called, uh, as my, my co-host, uh, for, for this particular episode, which is a great opportunity for me to, um. Stepping to the mantle of leadership. Uh, so I'm Richard Toll. I am as Pat often introduces me, uh, although it may be less than humble to introduce myself as an esteemed addiction psychotherapist from London. So I'm coming to you from London Town, uh, sat on the banks of the Thames as the fog rolls past people roll, roasting chestnuts in the background. Gentlemen in top hats, twirling canes, wondering about. And, um, you know, the king has just rolled past in his carriage. Um, and then we cross all the way across the Atlantic, um, chucking the left, uh, as we hit the coast of America and heading down to Mississippi where we find recovering bozo. Um, one of my favorite people, pat McCall, coming to you direct from a double wide trailer having just, um, just got back from the still to collect his moonshine. Pat. Pat, is it true that you are the keeper of one of the most well-preserved secret and award-winning moonshine recipes in your part of the states? Is that a true, is that true?

Speaker 2: 1:57

Well, if I said it would, it wouldn't be a secret anymore. And you said it was a secret, so, uh, well, the recipe itself is secret. The, the recipe itself is definitely secret. And I could definitely get by with one of these out here because I am. Um. I, I'm about 15, 16 minutes from the nearest Dollar General. And if you understand America, you know, that means you're way out. If you're less than 10 minutes from a Dollar General, you're out in the country. So,

pat: 2:28

yeah, man. Do you have like a petrol state or gas station in your like vicinity? Yeah. Where if tourists are driving past and they stop and ask for directions, they'll be given. Bad directions, which would then take them into like the back of beyond where they would be like attacked and like, you know, like that kind of thing. Often it's a plot in kind of horror movies and stuff like that. Does that kind of thing happen where you are?

Speaker 2: 2:54

We're not, we're not doing that any anymore. We have, uh, and, uh, the, the, the biggest fallacy in, in your premise there was tourist passing by because if there, or tourist casting by the nearest gas station, to me, they're already lost or they're kidnapped or in trouble. Yeah. Or they're right or they're pounding on the trunk. I'm just

pat: 3:26

Fair enough. Nice to see you, pat. How are you doing?

Speaker 2: 3:29

Oh, I'm doing very good. Very good. Nice to see you. Um, you guys do talk about fog. We do get a, a lot of, uh, dense fog here in the morning, but not the London fog that we've seen through all the movies and read about in the books. So you guys do get a lot of fog. Do you? And

pat: 3:46

go, go ahead. We used to, so London was like a really industrial city. And then, so you used to get pea soupers, which were very, very thick fogs, which were essentially like the, um, the smoke and stuff that was coming out of all these factories. And then that all changed. And there's laws and you actually can't, um, you can't have an, like a lock burning. Fire. You can't like burn actual wood to heat your house or coal, um, in London anymore. It's part of like the Clean Air Act because the soups got be the soups, the pea souper, the fogs became so heavy and toxic. In the last century in London that they, they changed, they changed the laws about decades ago. I could, I struggled to give you an exact date, but Yeah. Decades ago. No, no real fog. So it was smog, not fog. Yeah, it was smog. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we get a, like a normal amount of fog really, and.

Speaker 2: 4:45

And that's it. And so you, you can't, you can't burn firewood. Like you can't have a fire, you can't nestle up by the fire, you know, no

pat: 4:52

winter. But people have barbe, people have barbecues and stuff, but there's some law that you can't have, like, uh, you know, you can't burn into your chimney. Like, uh, you can't heat your house in that way. Not in, not in London.

Speaker 2: 5:04

Because it, because it infects the local environment.

pat: 5:08

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 5:10

Interesting.

pat: 5:11

Interest.

Speaker 2: 5:13

Well, you can, it, you can buy the, uh, the, you know, like the TV fire if you, of what you can. Yeah.

pat: 5:20

You can get that. These days. Look, in fact in some of the, um, souvenir shops in London, they've preserved, you can buy like a bag of the, of, of smug from the last century that you can, you can have like a piece of a piece of historic smog, which you can. Yeah, of course, man. Yeah. I'll send you one. How, how do you keep fog? They have special like bags that they put them in.

Speaker 2: 5:44

And somebody thought of this a hundred years ago, somebody thought, you know, one of these days all technology and we're gonna outlaw all this. So if we could capture some of this, our, um, our great-great grandchildren's gonna make bank off of this. Stop that. I didn't know that. I'm just, yeah. I might be, might be testing the smog there, Richard, just to see if

pat: 6:10

Yeah, well send me, it's not cheap, but if you send me the money, I'll, I'll send you the, I'll send you the smog. Show me the money pack.

Speaker 2: 6:18

I'll, I'll sure to do that. Go do a little carbon dating on that. So you should definitely do that.

pat: 6:24

That's very

Speaker 2: 6:24

interesting, Richard.

pat: 6:26

Thank you Patrick. I, I try, I do try, uh, to ate you

Speaker 2: 6:31

and you do, you have educated me quite a bit and I'll be thinking about that when I fire up. When I fire up the fire here in the next week.'cause it's supposed to drop down in the thirties. That's Fahrenheit, by the way.

pat: 6:42

Yeah. I have literally no idea what that means.

Speaker 2: 6:45

That means it's gonna get cold.

pat: 6:46

That's cold. Cold.

Speaker 2: 6:48

Gonna get to us thirties. Thirties in Mississippi is, oh lord. Close the doors, turn the fire on and wait for spring.

pat: 6:57

Yeah. Do you have the air con on like to temper the heat of the fire? You guys love a bit of air con?

Speaker 2: 7:06

Yeah,

pat: 7:07

a bit ac. Alright Patrick. So, um, as much as I enjoy our little, uh, our little chats, historical chats and so on, um, I thought we would get into the subject of today's episode, which is what I wanted to talk about was the idea of salvation first and transformation Second. So, as you know, part of my faith walk, which is very important to me and something I think is very important, that people that are kind of on the edge of faith or, you know, have like big reservations about Jesus or Christianity, you know, um, I think it's really important to clear up and help people to understand. It's the idea that we don't have to earn his love. And this follows on a little bit from the last episode, right? Like, we don't have to earn his love. We don't have to be really good to get the grace. Yeah. It's like actually the grace is on offer to all and then actually living a different way of life comes after that in a way that's actually quite, um, quite remarkable. Yeah. So for me, I. I got saved. Yeah. Um, and that washed away, you know,'cause we talk about being washed clean and being washed, you know, washed about sins and so on and so forth. But what that was it, what that did for me was it a lot of things which had bothered me. A lot of compulsions, a lot of like behaviors and addictions, you know, around sex and, you know, food and, you know, a lot of the stuff that had followed my, my drug addiction that had come into fill the place left by that. They, they, they, they were removed. They stopped being an issue for me. Right. So that, that happened because I was saved, you know, I didn't stop doing those things in order to be invert, you know, quote unquote good enough to be a Christian. Right? But then I find myself actually in a place where some of the things that I used to do, they don't sit right anymore. You know, I found, I find myself, you know, having conflict about, um. About being in a sexual relationship outside of marriage, you know? And now bear in mind this is coming from someone that previously was like, was a, a sex addict. Yeah. But I start to feel that conflict. I start to feel that conviction, you know? And then I want to do something different. It's not mandated. I'm not doing it because I'm told to, you know, like actual with son. I want to live in a different way. You know, I wanna try and speak to people better. I wanna try and be kinder. I want to try and, you know, and it's because I got saved. I didn't do that stuff in order to get saved. And I think it's such an important distinction, right? So I've got a few, um, scriptures to read out along the theme of we pursue righteousness because we belong to Christ, not to earn the right to belong to him. Yeah, so let me just hit you with some scriptures, pat, and we'll take it from there. Is that all or anything you wanna say now? Yes. Yeah, yeah. Fantastic. Alright, so John 15, verse four to five. Apart from me, you can do nothing. So this is the idea that we bear fruit, you know, it's the fruits of the spirit because we abide in Christ not to earn the right to abide. Yeah. And then. One, John chapter four, verse 19. We love because he first loved us, you know, so this is kind of the emotional heart of what I'm saying. Really. Like we changed because he loved us first. Yeah. And then this is like one of my favorite scriptures. And the thing that actually hearing this right. Was the thing that, you know, in that moment we've spoken about that we both had in different ways. You know, where you just get walloped by the like, oh my, you know, this overwhelming, like, so of love, right? This was the scripture that did it. Matthew 1128, come to me, all of you who are weary. So it's like if you are broken, if you are burdened, if you, you are struggling to live the way that you are living, you feel like you can't go. And he says, come to me. You know, like it's that invitation to come. Yeah. So those were sort of like the ideas that I wanted to talk about. And the other one, I don't have the scripture reference written down Patrick, but it's like, it's in John and I just sort of introduced the idea for us to talk about. It's like, you know, it's like, like Jesus Christ came down right? And he died on the cross for us whilst we were still sinners. You know, it like that happened whilst we were, we were still sinners, you know, didn't happen afterwards. You know, he, you know, we were redeemed from the depths of our sin,

Speaker 2: 12:02

you know?

pat: 12:02

Um, so yeah, I just wanted us to talk about that really, pat. What, why don't you think.

Speaker 2: 12:09

Uh, so much to, to, to unpack there that, that happened to me. You're right. There's nothing that we do. We didn't do anything to earn it. Mankind didn't do anything to earn the salvation and the peace and the joy that, that Jesus gave us. He just came down and made the sacrifice, but. That's such a brilliant summation what you said, because that's what happened. You know, as we talked about in the last episode while I, when, before I fully surrendered and started and accepted Jesus and got the fruit of the Holy Spirit, which by the way, that's Galatians 5 22 23, uh, but the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control against such things. There is no law. I did not have those before the Holy Spirit came into me, even before I accepted Jesus. Back the point when I was telling you I was following God. Like I, I mean, I can just go on and on in the business world, telling a fib, telling a lie to get a business deal, not a problem. Um, anger. Controlling my anger. I, you know, I got a little rage pint up in me. As you've mentioned before. Both of us were, were like, you know, we still have that little bit of a ticking time bomb. Things like my, that, my ego, uh, it all changed when Jesus comes into your life. You, you, that, that is such a, a perfect way to illustrate it. You don't do these things to be able to get salvation and to get the love of Jesus. You do'em because you have it. It starts changing. Yeah. The voice goes off in the head. As a matter of fact, he takes the anger out of you. So when that all for, just, just take anger, for example. I think both of us seem like these mild mannered, nice guys going down the road, but we both have a top that could, that I, I do. I mean, I just, I can. Yeah,

pat: 14:02

me too, man. All

Speaker 2: 14:02

of a sudden it just starts flow and then you just, but immediately the spirit comes into me. I don't have to win an argument or whatever's going on here. I don't have to be first. I don't have to do anything. I really don't have to. Whatever just calls me to do that means absolutely nothing. I have peace and joy in me and I quickly. Quickly just like that, release that, and it moves on. It's not that that's not still part of who I, I am, but Jesus took away the need for me to have any kind of anger. And so what you're saying is you don't do anything to earn it, but there's, there's so many things I can mention here that just changed in me once I accepted Jesus.

pat: 14:44

Yeah, absolutely man. And it like with my, you know, uh, I'm in sex addiction recovery, right? Um, you know, that when I was in that, you know, deep in it, right? There was some stuff I got up to like, you know, nothing illegal, none of that stuff, right? But like, um, you know, by the grace of God that that hasn't been my story, right? Um, and being in sex recovery, actually I've been around people that was part of the story. And, um, you know, like, I know, you know, I'm very, you know, I'm very grateful to God that thankfully it wasn't part of mine, you know? Um, but. There was stuff I did get up to. Yeah. In, you know, sleeping around and infidelity and, you know, all, all that stuff that I did, there was stuff I got up to that was like, things got pretty, you know, pretty twisted at times, you know? Um, and there was stuff that I got up to that. Now when I think about it, some of those particular acts, you know, I won't go into details sort of, you know, but like, you know, certain tastes that I had, right. She's like, I don't, I got no interest in doing that stuff anymore. Like none, you know, like, it's like it's, it's just not part of how I want to live my life. And I didn't make that happen. You know, I didn't sit down and do a worksheet of like pros and cons or, you know, sit, sit with a therapist and work out, you know, what my values were and how my behaviors aligned with that. You know, it's nothing I did. Yeah, it is just stuff started to change. You know, stuff started to change. Like, another thing would be my, um, you know, I really like a bit of stuff, pat, you know, I like an nice watch. I like an nice car, you know, I like a nice, you know, designer. A pair of sneakers. Yeah. And, um. And every now and again like that, you know that, that kind of the world, the flesh, somewhere in between that. Yeah. Between those things, I start thinking, you know what I really need. Right? What I really want, what I think would complete me as a man today would be another watch. You know what I mean? Like Yeah. What I need. It's been a good year, right? What I need is a Rolex. Yeah. And then that's gonna make it okay to be me. And then this other voice comes in, it's like, nah. That's not what you need. Do you know what I mean? Like act and act, you know, like tithing, right? Like when I came, when I first come into like a church setting, right? The, to a recovery ministry and, uh, believers in Recovery, which, you know, always gets a big shout out from me. You know, like they, you know, that's hugely influential ministry in my life. Like, literally like walked me towards Jesus, you know? Um. Part of their like mission statement. So they read some, some reading cards before the start of the, their, their ministry meetings very similar to what you'd seen an AA meeting or NA meeting or whatever. Right. One of the things they mentioned is tithing. Yeah. And I asked my friend, I was like, what's, so what's, what's tithing? They said, oh, well the idea is that you give 10% of what you earn, so like your church, whatever. I was like, like what? Like, like that idea it made me, it made me wanna throw up, you know? Like, it made me feel so deep. Very goes to Rolex,

Speaker 2: 18:00

huh?

pat: 18:01

Yeah. It made me feel so deeply uncomfortable. Right? Like, why would you, why would you do that? Boring McCone

Speaker 2: 18:06

definitely does.

pat: 18:07

Yeah. But then something shifts and it's like, what can I do? What can I do? You know, what can I, you know, what can I do to help? Like where, you know, where can I best? Like, you know, what kind of cause church or particular aspects of a particular ministry might I be best? You know, I'm not saying this'cause I want an affirmation part, but like where might I be able to help? You know, like where can my. Like my tithe go, what can I do with that? You know, how can it support people? And that, and it's just a real like heart shift, right? But I didn't have to do, I didn't, I mean, tithing's a really good example. It's like I didn't have to pay my 10% to get in. You know? It's not the price of admission. Yeah. The only price of admission is just like, look, do you believe, like do you believe in your heart and can, will you confess with your mouth that Jesus is the son of God? Yeah, that he came down, walked among us, died in the cross for sin. Rose again three days later, ascended to sit at the right hand of the father. And if you believe that that's true, that's it. You're done. You are in, you know what I mean? The red velvet rope has been unclipped and you have been ushered inside. Yeah. To the kingdom. Yeah. Simple as that. But once you are in there, things just start to change. Yeah. So when I look at like, you know, righteous. Godly people. For me, it's like understanding that they're like that the cost of their relationship, they don't, with Jesus, they don't get that relationship. Like to earn that, you know? And it's such an important distinction, you know?'cause I know it's just the reason it means so much to me, pat, is like, I've met so many guys, right? You know, and tried to minister to so many guys, right? Who think, or one of the stumbling blocks, there are many, sadly, in the world that we live in, but one of the stumbling blocks, I've done all this bad stuff. How could I? I'm not worthy, you know? And it's like it's not, it's just not. It's like that. You still like that man. Do you know what I mean? None of us are worthy.

Speaker 2: 20:08

Yeah. None of us are worthy. Yeah, yeah. Even though it didn't do the bad stuff you and I did, they're not worthy either. None of us are worthy. And back to what you were saying on the tithing, I just, I always just try to be honest that'cause God just knows my motivation. Sometimes I'll be in a, you know, in the pa I'll be in a prayer'cause I'm trying to, to accomplish something and I start laughing. In the prayer.'cause I'm like, okay, God, you know what I just said? I'm just trying to courage some favor here and you know my motivations. But when I first started tithing, it was like, oh, you give this and then you get the bless and then you get blessing. That the truth is what tithing is, is just trusting in God, do I trust this money? I'm like, well wait a minute. I could give this to do good because when the Bible wants us to help others and, and do I do that with that money or do I, oh, no, no, I don't trust God enough to provide for me and take care of me. So I need to hang on to this. Just like when I, I always mention lying if, because, and I wasn't like this massive liar, but I just realized that when I was in the business world and when I would not tell the truth, that is nothing more than me saying. Excuse me. God, I don't, you know what? I appreciate everything else you've done, but for right here, Pat's gonna have to handle this, and I'm gonna have to kinda work a little word, uh, Smith here and get this deal done. I'm very good at, very good at what I'm about to do here. By the way, I'm not proud of it, but you see what I'm saying? I'm not trusting God. I'm not going, no, no, no. This is what's, you know, really happening. Let the chips fall where in May. I trust God when it comes to finances. Everything I have, I thank God for every day. You know, the intense gratitude that, that, that I have. And I can look at all of these coincidences and all of these things in my life where God has provided for me. So when you sit back and go, no, I need to hang on to this myself. I go, oh, wait a minute. I trust God. I trust Jesus up to this moment, up till it, you know, it's time for me to par with some money. So that's why, uh, to me, that's what, that's what tithing is. It, yes, you're supposed to help. Yes, you're supposed to give alms, you're supposed to help, but also to the person that's giving. It's like I'm trusting, I trust God to provide for me because I have seen over and over and over again in my life, you know, him taking care of me, which is kind similar to things like, uh, dishonesty. I don't, I, I don't need to do that. Uh, I've honestly got to where I'm just. I don't think I can even tell something that's not the truth any anymore because it, for some reason that just, it just hits me. It's like I'm not trusting God. Um. But once it, once everything changes. Once you accept Jesus in, everything changes. Just like I said with the controlling anger. Why do I have to get mad before the anger? You think you gotta get mad to accomplish what you're trying to accomplish? Jesus teaches you, you can accomplish everything you wanted to and things you did not know you wanted to accomplish because I have a, a great path lying out for you. Uh, trust in me and. Exhibit the things that are the fruits of the spirit, as it says in Galatians 5 22 23.

pat: 23:24

Yeah, lovely, Patrick. There's some great examples there for sure. Um, yeah, it's just this, um. It kind of changes in a way that's difficult to describe. I think like it's difficult to put it into words. It's just like a heart shift all of a sudden, you know? And it's not like an enforced morality, you know? Um, and I'm, I'm, I'm borrowing some words from some 12 step literature there, right? But it, you know, it talks about, you know, like God's will for us becomes our own true will for ourselves. In an intuitive manner that is difficult to describe in words. Yeah. And that's certainly been like my experience, right? Um, and like living a spiritual life in a way that's not about enforced morality, you know? It's not like I have to do this, I have to do that. I need to be like this. I've been told, if you don't, you know, it is like, it's different to that man. It's different. And it's like, look, if you don't know how to live and you keep making mistakes, right, and you're living in ways. Difficult for other people or even yourself to understand why you keep making the same mistakes. Right? Like that doesn't exempt you from the kingdom. Yeah. That like, that qualifies you, you know, and that follows, I'm probably talking about last time, about the power of testimony that you know, that the depths of a testament, you know, that the deeper and darker. The, the darkness portion of the testimony, then the, you know, the, the, you know, the more powerful, you know, the more brilliant the light. Right? And um, and it's kinda like that, right? Like, it's like lost.

Speaker 2: 25:02

It's a, it's a great point. You, you get to where you don't, there, there's literally nothing that I have did that I, I do not deny myself anything that, that makes me happy or give me joy that I thought years ago. It's not like, oh no, I'm a Christian now. Uh, you know, I wish I could do that. Nope. There's just absolutely nothing that, that I'm denying myself. And another point that you were, you, you were making. Was things change what you think you want when you're following Jesus. You said, I don't remember what exactly what you said, but you said God's will becomes our will. You know, and I always think back to the day that I'm in, uh, Los Angeles, I'm in la you know, I'm trying to make it in the entertainment business. I don't start as a comedian told, you know, I'm basically almost what you would call middle age. I'm kind of in my late thirties when I'm starting. I'm already a little self-conscious about that. My wife calls me up and says. You are about to become a grandfather. I'm like. Well, that's just peachy. Now I'm a grandpa. Are you serious? It's like this is the most, you know, this is not the wonderful news that you think it is. Uh, to, to Pat Mcco who's trying to, uh, make it in the, in the entertainment business and being a grandfather turned out to be one of the happiest. Things in my life, the joy that I get from these, from these people. You get these people that just love you just because you breathe. In other words, God had these different purposes. There were things that gave me joy in life that I did not know, just like just. You know, being married to, to one woman, I am just, I, I don't have any desire. There is no, uh, you know, don't do this. And, you know, I'm a Christian. So when I was out, you know, as I, now I do comedy, I generally, I fly out, I do one show at one place, kind of come back when I was out there for weeks, you know, on the road, uh, at the end of the, at the end of, you know, the night. Performing in clubs on the weekends when the other comics or whatever, Hey, let's go over here. Let's do what? I was just perfectly thrilled to go back to my room and watch the history of concrete, on the science channel. I'm just like, I have joy, I have happiness. I'm not denying myself anything. And so I think what you're talking about is a, is a great illustration. God's will is better than our will. We don't know it till we really surrender and until we really start. Following him. But there is such a, such a paradigm shift. It's things like, uh, hypocrisy, uh, you know, the big, one of the biggest things for me, Richard, is when I became, when I really accepted Jesus and got the Holy Spirit in me, I became very judgmental, but of one person myself. I've literally, everything kind of turned back in on me. I stopped being judgemental of other people, and I started looking towards myself. Not in a condemning way, in any way, shape, form, or fashion, but just like a pointing out way, like spotting the log in my eye instead of, uh, I don't remember the, the rest of the words, but I immediately just kind of turned around and started examining myself, not. In a way of condemnation. But it's like I said, with the honor, it is like you start to say something, pat, that's, that's just not true. Uh, ego, I just didn't need the big ego in my business. You, you want, you have a little ego. You have, but I just didn't need it. I, what I needed the approval of was Jesus, because that's what gives you warmth in your heart. The approval of other people, you know, been there, done that. That's just shallow that comes and goes, and that's all conditional. The love of Jesus would, would you come into my life? I'll tell you something else is hypocrisy. We are all. Human beings are. We, we're all hypocrites. To a certain ex example, don't believe, just go throughout the day. It's easy to look over and see somebody doing something that you do and look at it and point it out. But now, um, I just catch myself. It's like a voice I hear saying in my in, in my head said, you know, you do that. Or I've done that too. Or look at that person, trying to cut in front of you in, at the grocery store. You know, you, you, you, you were only reason you've noticed that.'cause you wanted to get to the aisle before they did. It's just little things like that. It's not condemning, I don't walk around bashing myself. It's just like, I don't. I don't need to, to do these things. The hypocrisy, uh, that most people feel, I mean, if you think about it, we all have a little bit of hypocrisy or we are quick to kind of look at people that are different, that aren't, are, are doing things that we're not doing. That kind of gets taken away. I you, you notice the hypocrisy, you notice when you're getting, unnecessarily angry about something. Uh, although you did mention brilliantly in one episode that that anger's a good thing. It stops. Things from happening, but you know, the type where you're just, where you get mad and you get into the rage once you get Jesus in your life, the whole, everything shifts. Mm-hmm. All, you know, like I said, I don't have anything that I deny. I don't have to deny myself anything. Even when it comes to, you mentioned even food and overeating and stuff, I don't even do that. Uh, I, you know, the Lord's kinda led me to a plan. I got about five days a week. I watch what I'm doing. I'm exercising next couple days. I ate like a pig. I mean, honestly, I could, I could be a movie. I mean, I, I could, I could be a, a a five minute video of this is not what to eat, but then I get right back up and it's like, oh, he ate a whole pizza. Oh, and he got up and he polished off the pasta. I do. I just, whatever I, but then I moderate, I get back up and go back about my life exercising, take care of my business. But the point is I don't deny myself anything. And I have more joy, more peace, more happiness, and those things that we thought were, we've, we've covered this in other episodes, those things that we thought were giving us happiness that almost killed us and people around us didn't give us anything but misery. The things that God gives you in his will. That's what leads you to joy and peace and happiness and to where we are right now. We're here because God's put in this strong desire to help people. Before this happened, you and I had a strong desire to help ourselves. That's another big paradigm shift. You, you, your empathy level just changes. You kind of get to where you, you start looking outward. So, uh, that's a little bit rambling, but based, but to what you're saying, that is the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

pat: 31:53

Nice one, Patrick. Um, yeah, I mean, the other thing I would say is like, so I, I'm still, you know, I would say I'm, I'm kind of one of life's strugglers in some ways. You know, I, I still have some, some, some challenges that, you know, many things have been removed for me as a result of coming to Christ. And there's still a few things left. There's still a few thorns in my side, you know, um, as Paul writes about Yeah. You know, he is, he, he, he writes in the Romans part. He talks, you know, he, he talks about like, you know, the things I don't want to do, I do. And the things that I want to do, I don't do what a wretched man am I, and he talks about begging God three times to remove this thorn in his side. And it's a much debated theological point. What is the thorn that he speaks of, right? But then God turned around and says, no, I'm not gonna remove it. Your my grace is sufficient for you. So we never know how God uses our struggles and stuff like that. So I still have some, you know, like my, you know, my temper is one, you know, my, my mood can be another, you know? Um, and, um,

Speaker 2: 32:57

not to interrupt you, but I'm glad you mentioned that because remember. I've got some years on you. It didn't happen overnight. I didn't just turn around and go insta. The anger was gone. It took years and years. So what I'm saying is you're a lot fresher in your walk with Jesus. Yeah. Oh, I'm than I am. And you know, and I, it, so I wanted to clear that up when you started saying that. It's not me saying, Hey, I don't have anything. It, it was a process, a long process. You keep. Pursuing Jesus. And that changes and changes. So you're in a little different stage of, of the game, and I was exactly where you were. It just took time and time and time. Go back to what you're saying. I didn't want to interrupt you. No,

pat: 33:36

that's great. Thank you for sharing that, pat, actually. Um, I think that's really helpful for our listeners and it's, it's also really helpful for me, mate. But, um, but what I have got is like, there's like a conviction, you know, it's like I get convicted, you know, like I'll do something, you know, I act out on my anger or, you know, like, you know. Self condemnation can be one for me. You know, that kinda low self-esteem stuff. Yeah. What's fresh and um, but then I get that conviction. It's like, this isn't godly, but this isn't how I'm supposed to live. And then what I also have that I never had before is like, oh, okay, I can take that to prayer. You know, I can like bring this, I can leave this at the foot of the cross. You know, like this isn't. My struggle to carry alone. Yeah. Like actually, like I've got a savior, I've got a Lord, I've got a king, I've got a best friend, you know, like, look and put his arm around me and help me through this, you know, and, and sometimes those prayers have been answered, you know, like kind of directly, like a heart shift. You know, and actually sometimes like someone's come into my life that can, like, that can help me with a particular thing, you know? Um, and it's all like having that to return to and that, you know, actually like, so it's like that refining process, like that sanctification, you know? Um, and it helps me to move towards, I think with me it's like, I mean, almost just putting this together in my thoughts now, but it's like the most damaging things. Yeah. That clearly were gonna. Hurt people definitely hurt myself and block me from any kind of usefulness to my fellow man whatsoever. Yeah, they were taken, that went very quickly. Do you know what I mean? And I've been left with some stuff that I need to work on, you know? Um, and, but I have a way to, you know, to do that, man. Like I've got, like I say, I've got somewhere that I can take that, that I just never had before, you know? And that's a beautiful thing.

Speaker 2: 35:40

I plays the long game and it sounded like as, when I was saying what I was saying, this was a process. A long process. When I told you that my wife called and said you were gonna be a grandfather. That took me years, years before I realized there was a will that, that there's a purpose God had for me that I was going to find out was gonna be great joy. It wasn't at the moment. It, it wasn't a week later, it wasn't six months later, it wasn't even two years later. Uh, the anger, it didn't just disappear. It's just more and more following Jesus. You get you the, it's the more you know when, when we accept Jesus. The Holy Spirit comes in us. I believe we get the same amount of the Holy Spirit as, as, as they got it. Pentecost the same amount. And what we're doing through life is day by day, week by week, month by month, year by year, we're surrendering to it. The more you surrender to it, then the more you're filled with it Doesn't happen overnight. It's just, it's, it's, it's there that, that it's in you and it's a process of following God. And those things start following away. The more you surrender to it, the more joy and the more happiness. I should have clarified that what I was getting to is, is it was, I always have a saying that God plays the long game. He knows what gives you joy, he gives you purpose. What gives you happiness. There's still things in your mind, freshly, uh, you know,, you're a new Christian. You're not long away from struggling with some of the things that you know that you've had in the past. So you've got a ways to go. God plays a long game. You'll find things that give you joy and peace and happiness as you go along that you never did because the old Richard, just like the old pat, thought, these are the things and they're still there. And you remember the episode we have on spiritual warfare. Richard gets, if you don't, you don't think Satan is popping arrows at you. You know, they, they're probably slinging at you and bouncing off walls everywhere you turn. But it is a process. God plays the long game and the more that we surrender as we go along and a lot of times we just have to go through life to do it. I mean, I didn't stop becoming the rageaholic immediately when, you know, my wife can tell you that, no, I didn't do that. It just slowly and slowly. And slowly it starts coming out of you. It starts coming out of you. The Holy Spirit takes over more and takes over more before you, and you get to what's in Galatians where it talks about the fruit of the spirit, the more it's getting in you. And I'm not trying to paint myself, it's'cause I literally can walk downstairs and 15 minutes and walk outside or go somewhere and all of a sudden start to go off on somebody again or you know, or get. Starting to blow my top or, or any of those things. The ego or whatever starts to present itself, but the Holy Spirit realize his point made me realize. That's not necessary. I don't have to win an argument. I don't have to win a debate. I will start to, if someone says something I don't agree with, or whatever the immediate reaction, but it's a long game. It takes a while. God plays the long game, but he knows what gives you joy. He knows what will give you peace. He knows what will give you happiness. And that's what's happened with me. The more I start, started realizing that because I've got, I've got those years on you, I'm starting to thank Richard that I'm I'm, I am literally put here to blaze this path and go, Richard, that was me. 16, 16 years ago. Don't be so hard on, don't be so hard on yourself because you're fa you're probably farther along, more committed. I will tell you this right now, scripture, the things I hear from you, the, the how committed you are to following Jesus, your, um, you know, you're, uh, your studiousness and, and being in church and hearing the word and making a difference. You are. Far, far ahead of where I was when I was on my spiritual journey. You were the reason, you're just a few years in and said, Hey, why don't we try to help some to help some people? So you're on your way and anybody listening out there, there's long stages of the game. The man, we start, um. That we were talking about in the last episode that we updated that, that decided he was an alcoholic, realized he was an alcoholic, and started making his changes. And then, uh, he, he's a hundred days in. He, you know, he may have believed in the Lord before, but he wasn't doing it. But now he's changing it. That takes, sometimes takes years and years, but yet any stage of the game, you can make that change. But no, it doesn't happen. It doesn't happen overnight. Those arrows are gonna continue to flip. Fly at you, but as you said, you have the shield, now you have that rock. Yeah, I just, it just comes quickly to me when I start to be a hypocrite or start, it just comes boom, but it becomes, it's, it's like habitual, you know, it becomes quicker, but it takes time to get that into your, you know, to, to get that into your mind, to get that into your heart. Start living that way, letting the Holy Spirit, uh, take over. But I think you're doing a fantastic job at it.

pat: 40:54

Thank you, pat, and like, like it's really helpful. Like I say, you know, it's really helpful to me and you know, I think it's just so helpful to anyone listening that's like, you know, in that place of like maybe just, just on the outside of faith and just looking in and wondering what it's all about, you know? And, um, I'm mean something I'm really passionate about. I'm gonna speak because I occasionally get asked to speak at like a recovery ministry event or whatever it is, right? It's like we don't paint ourselves out to be. The finished article, you know, you like, that's, I think that's so important. And that book, you know, I know I often mention this guy, but Brendan Manning, um, you know, the guy who wrote the Ragga in gospel, um, which is a, a lot of it, which is about what we're talking about, but one of his chapters in his book is called Tilted Halos, you know, and it's just about those like imperfect Christians, you know, Christians that are willing to be imperfect and like, demonstrate. You know, their halo isn't on the straight, you know? And um, I think it's just, yeah, like that stuff like, you know, and I really applaud you, man, for being willing to like, just talk about that kind of, you know, your journey up to now and what things can still be like for you now in terms of those struggles.'cause it's, it's certainly, I can definitely think, you know, I just guess we're talking really honestly at this point, but it's like I can definitely sink occasionally into a bit of place of thinking, like a bit of a place of thinking. Have I missed something? Here. But you know, like I,'cause I, I've still got some, as much as there's been healing, I've still got some struggles, you know, and I can definitely fall into a place of thinking like, am I not something enough? You know, or you know, am I too something, you know? Um, so, yeah. That's right. Super helpful. Super generous of you, pat. Thank you.

Speaker 2: 42:41

We mentioned it in an earlier episode of spiritual warfare, the devil that led up on, especially someone like yourself. He's. He's your high value target. He's gonna continue tolay and continue to try to make you think bad, feel bad about yourself. It's a, um, as I said, it's, it's a journey. God plays the long game in all of our lives and, and I don't want anybody that's listening to think that I'm coming off is, is awesome, not finished product.'cause I can assure you, I am someone who's not giving up immaturity without a fight. Uh, I, I somewhat

pat: 43:20

co Pat Hall, I,

Speaker 2: 43:21

I am, well, when I say recovering by mentioning my act, I, you know that I am a recovering idiot because I am, I mean, I, when I, here's the way I put it. Once I realized I was a fool and I am. My wife, we, you want to, you need have, you just need to have an episode with Gwen and go, pat tells us these things about himself. Okay, check one here. Let's, let's get, let's get some veracity to this claim. He tries to act like he's this wise guy. No, once I realized what a fool I was, then I started becoming wiser. But I'm still a fool. I mean, I know I have a propensity to do foolish things in my heart, but I have Jesus in my life. Holy spirit's inside of me. So I stop and go, wait a minute. And then I started getting wiser. Once I realized I was a fool, I became wise a a lot wiser. Do you see what I mean? Once I realized I was a hypocrite, I became less, um, I be started becoming less of a hypocrite. You see, you just, you just start noticing those things more as you go along. But you know, it's a spiritual battle and it, and it's a war, and, and I, I still have all that in me, but, uh, my life has just been filled with joy, peace, and happiness. And none of the things that are giving me joy, peace, and happiness now are the things that I pursued. Uh, 35 years ago I laughed at you. I, I would've laughed at you if you'd said, okay, you're going to do do this, you're gonna do that, marry the kid. I'm like, whoa, whoa, me. You know? You know the, the guy that try, you know that. Well just don't go back into all that. But the point is not my, any stretch of the imagination that all the things that give me joy now are the things that I thought. And even once I bec, once I did become a Christian, had that day in that church sitting next to my mother-in-law that we won't rehash. That was just the beginning. That was the beginning. Things started changing. Things started changing. But I certainly didn't walk out of there. Um. Complete. I mean, I, I was, I was cleansed of paying the price for who I was and for my sin, but it was still inside of me, and it's a long process. I always say God plays the long game, and I think this is a, a great topic that you brought up. The bottom line is you stop wanting to do it. That's,

pat: 45:56

yeah.

Speaker 2: 45:57

Lovely moment. You loved the sin, you thought you were enjoying it, and all of those things, you justified it, whatever. But once you became, you started wanting to do the right thing because it's the Holy Spirit's in you. You have more empathy for others, you have more sympathy for others. Uh, you, you, you feel compelled to, to do the right things instead of going out and trying to make the world love you. You wanna make your Heavenly Father proud of you because we're all gonna be sitting with him one day. Heaven's a real place that we're all down here preparing for and training for, and it's a place that's gonna blow all of our minds. Um, but the walk between here and there, I kind of liken it to like basic training when I was in the military. You gotta go through some stuff along the way.

pat: 46:45

Lovely, pat. Thank you man. I think that's a really nice note to end it on. Um, transformation takes time. Sorry. Thanks, pat. Lovely. Look, you take care and all of our listeners out there, you know, take care of yourselves. God bless you. And um, and we'll be back with another episode very soon. Take care.

Speaker 2: 47:05

Bye. Excellent. Take care,

pat: 47:06

rich.