Ep: 28 Dealing With Anxiety

Pat and Richard discuss the different types of anxiety that affect most of us, and helpful ways to overcome it. From extreme anxiety that requires clinical help that Richard deals with in his practice, to the common form almost all of us have on some level. 

Transcript

Pat 0:23

And welcome to the two Unlikely Christians podcast. I am comedian Pat McCool, coming to you from the Piney Woods of Southern Mississippi, 3.1 miles from a former nuclear test site. And now we go all across the. Fishes in the deep blue sea to London, England, where we find esteemed psychotherapist and addiction specialist. Richard Terrell. How you doing? Rich?

Rich 0:48

Richard Terrell? I was, yeah. Terrell, you say my name differently on different occasions. I don't know.

Pat 0:53

Oh, it Terrell.

Rich 0:55

Terrell.

Pat 0:56

Well, Terrell is kind of the, you know, what you do like in America. Like say a football player who has a. His name is pronounced one way through college and like we, we had a running back named Tony, uh, Dorsett all through college. But then when he made it big and he, he, he gained some esteem, then it was Dorsett. So might be time, you know, you, you, you kind of getting some national. A claim out there, Richard. I mean, you, you're all over the globe. Might be time to think about, you know, bringing it down from Terrell to, to Terrell. So

Rich 1:35

I apologize. It does sound a bit it. No, no, it's fine. I'm only play, I'm just playing Pat, but, um, it, it, it does sound kind of deep Southy, doesn't it? Richard Terrell, you know, Richard Terrell, you know. Yeah. But it's actually, it's much more British, just kind of blunt. Total.

Pat 1:51

Yeah. Well, we drag it out in the South Terrell. This is Richard Terrell.

Rich 1:58

I guess it takes the, you know, it fills the day, doesn't it, you know, length. You lengthen each syllable. Yeah.

Pat 2:06

Yeah.

Rich 2:09

Historically not been a lot to do then there, right? Yeah.

Pat 2:11

Well, we, it, yeah. The days drag along down here. So if we slow things down, you know, if our dog is dog. You know, we, we've taken up a little bit of time. Now

Rich 2:25

you add it all up Pat. It makes a difference. Do you know what I mean?

Pat 2:27

I

Rich 2:28

think it makes a difference.

Pat 2:29

I think it does. Well, good to see you, man. Um,

Rich 2:33

you too. You too.

Pat 2:34

Today we are going to talk about, um, anxiety, which is something that everyone deals with to a certain degree and it's kind of in keeping. With a couple of our earlier epi recent episodes, uh, one on anger, uh, one on choosing your attitude and the physiological, effects that those have, that anger has on your body. The physiological effects it has when you're ha when you let yourself into a bad attitude and how you can keep a good attitude, uh, and they all have. Effects on your body. Same thing with, and the same thing with anger and anxiety is the same thing. And I think we all deal with anxiety and there is, one extreme to the other. You know, you have the, and this is what I'm so interested in talking to Richard about, is because you have the extremes. You have on one end of the spectrum, which needs, uh. You know, uh, clinical psychotherapy, that type of thing. And then there's the stuff that, that I think most of us deal with at some point, which is just a minor day-to-day everyday anxiety that we run into. But just to quickly run down the effects of anxiety on the body, one this is either scientific physiological effects. One is, sense of doom, frequent feelings of impending doom. That people have. I think that's kind of one of the roots of it, but it also causes headaches, also causes irritability, causes breathing problems, increase in blood pressure, muscle aches, and other pains, panic attacks. That's probably on more on the extreme end. Uh, depression, extreme fatigue pounding, heart upset stomach, and it also causes a loss of libido. And boy, we just don't want that happening, do we? So, like I said, we have the, you have the big extremes that, that really affects people's lives where they're needing help. And then you have what I think is just the mild kind of anxiety that we all have. It's something I've always battled or I've always dealt with. I, I think it's just kind of a natural thing that, and I, I don't know if it's, if it's. You know, Satan throwing arrows at us. I think there's part of that. I think some of it's what we're pre-programmed, that we have bad things in our lives.'cause a lot of times I've gotten a lot better at it because when I started, realizing there are solutions to it because a lot of it's just in our head. Um, I've learned to control a lot better. But you just, you know, we, the human nature. Goes around waiting for a shoe to drop. Like I, I used to have the, I wake up two or three o'clock in the morning and then my mind would immediately do a Google search for what do I have to be stressed about and start running those down. Mm-hmm. Now I have so much less to be stressed about now than I used to, but back when I did, it was still useless for me to be sitting there at two o'clock in the morning. Focusing on those type of things. Do you see where I'm going with this? So, and just to you, your personal thoughts on anxiety, all the way to what do you deal with in your, practice? Yeah.'cause I'm assuming you deal with

Rich 5:56

Yeah, of course. Yeah. I mean, you know, like anxiety and depression, see a lot of that, you know, with. Addiction, you know, often they all just go hand in hand. Um, you've got, yeah, I think you're right. You know, there's a natural kind of being a human being level of anxiety. Um, you know, we all have to sit probably increasingly so in, in, in current times with like a, a level of uncertainty. Which can be uncomfortable. Yeah. And can leave one feeling anxious. Yeah. But then you go through to, you know, like you say, like clinical pathological levels of anxiety, generalized anxiety disorder, you know, those kind of things, which are, you know, very, um, can be very debilitating, you know, can be very debilitating. Um, so yeah, definitely see plenty of it. Um, and yeah, have got, I've got different ways to work with that. There's different ways to work with that for sure.

Pat 7:00

So you, you deal with the, you have people come in and that are dealing with the extreme, the panic attack, the things that, kind of rule their lives. You know, I didn't think about it, but when I was mentioning it, you know, when I was saying this, I. Do, you're dealing with people in addiction, obviously, that have anxiety, that have reason to ha have anxiety. I wonder if the anxiety, if a person with heavy anxiety that could lead to their addiction, or do you think the addiction causes the anxiety?

Rich 7:29

Yeah, that's a really good question. It's a really interesting thing to talk about. Um, so a good example of that would be, um, often, uh, an alcoholic will. I believe that he or she is drinking on, you know, to manage their anxiety. Yeah. Like if I don't have a drink, I, I feel anxious. If I don't have a drink, I can't sleep because I'm so anxious. Right. But one, once someone's dependent on alcohol physically, then the, one of the earlier withdrawal symptoms is anxiety. So often people end up in this cycle where actually the thing that they're using to medicate their anxiety is the thing that's causing their anxiety. And then it's really like. Just a, a really difficult cycle to get out of. So something that's really important to do is help people to understand that actually, you know, you, it, it may not be as simple as I feel like this, I take this to manage it. You know, it might have been that once upon a time, but if, you know, by the time they walk through the door of my office, it, it's, it is probably got a little bit blurrier than that. Yeah, for sure. Um, but yeah, like, I mean, drugs and alcohol, people often, you know. Be that an anxiety that's born of like a traumatic history, um, you know, an anxiety that's born, you know, anxiety can be caused by lots of different things. That's, you know, lots of different people have theorized, you know, what it's about, you know, um, you know, I think there can be genetic components. You know, it can be learned from, you know, an anxious mother. For example. Yeah. But, um, but yeah, like there's a huge self-medication component in addiction where, you know, some, putting it bluntly, someone doesn't like the way they feel, so they take, they find a substance, which, which helps with that, you know? Um, and then that turns into an addiction. Uh, yeah.

Pat 9:34

Yeah. I just wonder, that, because when you, you have a pattern of things going wrong in your life. Then you might start expecting things to go wrong. But there's a feeling it's just like, it's like the feeling, that I, that, you know, that I would get you always looking for what to be stressed about. And it could just be the basic human nature where we're just, you know, we, we blow problems up. We're used to, to having things that have gone wrong. So we extrapolated out in our mind that, that. Some shoe's gonna drop, something bad's going to happen. I have anxiety, I have, um, on a mild case, just to take for example, my, my oldest daughter, I, uh. This girl's a rockstar. She, I'm not saying she has anxiety, so if she's listening to this, I, I apologize for bringing you up, but she's the best example. She, uh, is a rockstar. When I just look at her and I just admire, I look at her and think, I wish I had my act together as well as she does. I've never seen anybody master life, handle all the things, all the things she's dealt with in life, and she's got. Children and uh, jobs. She's successful at everything she does. But then the text comes in from my wife and my wife's like, oh, well she's stressed about this. Or One of the granddaughters who are awesome granddaughters being a drama queen, or This is going on, or whatever. But you could tell there's some anxiety going on about whatever the issue is. But she is batting a thousand on. Punching it in the face and handling it and coming out glowing on the other side. You see what I mean? But yet in your mind you think, uh, oh gosh. This is, in other words, the, the, the problems that come that, that day-to-day problems that come up that give us anxiety and that just kind will mess with our daily living. Um, I think are, are things that. A lot of it is just our human nature that's going in our mind. Like I said, in her case, it works out a thousand times out of a thousand times, and she goes on shining through life, but yet has those moments of, you know, when the text comes in that. Stressed about this or stressed about that. I think that's kind of the modern kind of anxiety stuff and that people would learn to, to kind of deal with that. What I want to ask you is, do you think it's more physiological or spiritual? You know, we did an episode on the spiritual warfare. Is it those darks that are just coming at you? It has to be a part of that. I don't know if it's. You know, human nature, they're just physiological things like we talked about with anger. One thought, one thing triggers another thing. Mm-hmm. Is it spiritual? It's just, I think a lot of that is, I think, you know, it's just popping you, you know, there's a force and it's Satan. It's constantly telling you, Hey, this could happen. That could happen. This could happen. What are your thoughts on the physiological versus spiritual? Or is there a

Rich 12:26

Yeah. That's such an interesting question. I think a lot of, you know, a lot of anxiety is born from trying to be in control of things that we aren't, we actually can't control. You know, there's so little that we can actually control in our lives and then we're trying to control all these things, right? So we're trying to control the world, right? So spiritually, I'm just thinking this through now, like spiritually, I think, um. Sure there's attacks from the enemy in it. Yeah. I think that can be entirely possible. And doubtlessly is, you know, is a source of it. Right. Um, also sometimes I think it's a lack of, they probably spiritually, it comes down to a lack of faith, you know, like making an hundred one. Lack of trust. Yeah. Lack a trust in, you know. The things will unfold as they need to unfold. Right. So I think there's a lack of faith in it as well. And you could bring that back to the enemy because you know the SO'S doubt. Yeah. And, um, you know, that's, that's what a lack of faith is, isn't it really? Is doubt. Um, so yeah, there's that side of it for sure. Often from a more psychological perspective, people, they really want to feel like they're in control and when we're out of control. Particularly if someone has a history where they may, they felt, they felt like there was a lot of stuff going on around them that, that they was, that was out of control and impacted the, and was, you know, scary or overwhelming and stuff like that. So people with that kind of history particularly would be vulnerable to like feeling like they need to have a tight level of control on everything to manage. You know, to avoid any feelings of anxiousness, but of course we can never control everything'cause there's actually a very limited amount of things that we can control. So that, that definitely contributes to why people feel anxious as well. I worked with this really, really great psychotherapist, um, you know, who was a colleague some years ago and, um, he's a lovely man who's called Richard Stevenson. And, um. He, he's very sad actually. He passed away. He, he, he died of prostate cancer, um, relatively young, was in his very late fifties, if I remember correctly. Um, left a couple of kids behind, you know, um, very sad. Um, he used to talk to clients about, you know, like, we, we essentially, we live on this. And he wasn't a Christian, but it was such a great way. He explained it. Now we live on this ball. Right. And we all live on this ball. It's spinning at, I believe about 10,000 miles an hour. Yeah. And then that ball as it's spinning, is spinning around a much bigger ball of fire. Right. In an infinite blackness that no one really understands. Yeah. And actually, like we're, we're in control of so little that the idea that we are in con, you know, we can control of these circumstances and facets of our life is actually an illusion. Right. Um, and letting go of that, you know, and understanding that is, uh, is I think a really important way of navigating you one's way out of anxiety.

Pat 15:58

I think you made a great point there.'cause when you say control, that struck a nerve with me.'cause that's the way I used to be. I just wanted to be in control. I think one of the biggest things in life that does cause anxiety and stress with especially a man. Control. You want to have control over things. You wanna be able to plan life out and go. Okay. I am in control of everything here. Uh, I read, I can't remember what the, in a book one time, and it was, it was talking about the. Effects of that, how we want to be able to control everything. We, we don't like just being, uh, uh, you know, I gotta wait and see what happens. But I think that's where, uh, and our minds are kind of trained to, to do that. But that's where we learn as we become Christians, we learn that we're not in control. Mm-hmm. We're not gonna be in control. We can't control anything. The older you get, the more you realize you, you are not in con and what's gonna happen, things is gonna happen that you have no control over whatsoever. That's where it comes in, putting trust in God and your faith. I would imagine. I can tell you this right now, I, the anxiety I had before. Truly became a follower of Jesus, truly started, uh, trusting him. Learning what trust means. We all say we trust God, but we all do to a certain experience. The less amount of anxiety, my anxiety has been beaten outta me, not beaten outta me, but gone outta me. The more that I turn and. And trust God. I would imagine in your case, both of us, when we had our childhoods, we had our inauspicious starts where things went wrong. We expected things to get wrong. We were creating the problems that were, you know, that were going wrong in many cases. So you're, we've trained, you trained your mind that bad things are going to happen. So, okay, things are going good now, but I'm waiting for a shoe to drop. Did you kind of have that experience before you became a follower? Did you have much more heightened anxiety and then when you became a believer, has your, has it dropped

Rich 17:57

precipitously

Pat 17:58

or,

Rich 17:58

yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, but don't get me wrong, it's not gotten by any stretch of the imagination. But yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's a lot better.'cause I, it's like having a kind of, how would you describe, how would I describe it? Like. I've always got something to return to. You know, I've always got something to return to. It's the idea that like, you know, I am loved that things will be okay, right? And apart from anything else that like this isn't it, right? Like this isn't our, this isn't it. You know, we have

Pat 18:32

reality. What you have, what you have to return to is reality, is that you have a father in heaven that's watching over you, that has your life in his hands.

Rich 18:43

Yeah. And that when, you know, when my time on this earthly plane ends, like I'm, I'm going somewhere else, you know? So what, what happens here is much less consequential to me than it would be to someone that doesn't believe, because I know this, isn't it. This is just the warmup pact. Yeah. It's not even a halftime shot. Yeah, it's just the, all my parents. Yeah.

Pat 19:09

I, uh, I like to call it, I like to call it, basic training because I really think anxiety is, there's real anxiety if, you know, we're, if we're. Someone's coming to attack us. We've gotta do, we've got to do something about that. We discussed that in one of the, uh, earlier episodes, on fear. But I think so much of in, in our mind is just made up. That's where when I start searching the Rolodex, it's not, it's not real. Reality is God always takes care of me. Things always work out. And as you said, when it's all said and done, regardless of what happens, we're going to a place of incredible joy and happiness and peace. And so I think in this particular case, because we talked about when anger and choosing your attitude, there's physiological things. Uh oh. And one thing I wanted to say on the extreme. Um, anxiety, like if you're having an anxious moment, a business meeting, something like that you're anxious about. I will say there's one thing that, that will kind of reset your blood pressure a little bit. That's kind of worked for me. I read somewhere that Special forces guys use this before they go into mm-hmm. Dangerous situations. I have no idea whether this is true or not. So don't, I don't need to, you know, if the, uh. I have great admir special forces guys, not speaking for them, but it was just a simple thing where if you're having an anxious moment going into a meeting, and the reason I know this because my. My whole job is, uh, I'm gonna have a big anxious moment before I go up on stage and speak to a lot of people. When I go do my comedy show, I do not get, nervous anymore, but you always get butterflies, which, uh. A little bit off the topic, but if people understood what butterflies were to me, when I've learned that butterflies aren't you being nervous about things going wrong, it's if you look at it like your body is preparing you to do a good job, your body's bringing things up, bringing your blood pressure, you know, bringing you to a certain state to go out and perform and to go. Focus. I can remember when I started doing comedy and I would get very stressed and I would tell myself, you know what? I'm not gonna stress about this. I'm not even gonna think about it. I can do this. I can kill this. I'm going out here and rock and roll. I've gotten good at this. Those would be my worst shows. The best shows when, when I let myself get a little, get a little keyed up, like, okay, man, focus, make sure you got everything. Alright, you ready? Here? Here's the first few words coming outta your mouth. And you go. But the one thing is it's, it's like this four by four. I. 16. Yeah. Box,

Rich 21:36

box, breathing

Pat 21:37

box. That's it. That's

Rich 21:38

box breathing.

Pat 21:39

That's why you're the brains of the outfit. Yeah,

Rich 21:41

yeah,

Pat 21:41

yeah. Nothing gets by you, rich.

Rich 21:43

Yeah. So let look, that's beautifully Patrick, unknowingly you have segued into what, you know, another thing that's like I, you know, really want to kind of it make sure forms part of our conversation today and it's, um. So what box breathing does you breathe in for Four. You hold for four, you exhale for four, and then you hold the empty breath for four and so on and so forth. So that's why it's called the box four seconds each side, right? And yes, as far as I'm aware, Navy Seals use it before they go into combat. So it's very regulating. So the breath is one part of our, um, body physical makeup that we can control. But it's also automatic. So if you think about it, there isn't really anything else like that. Like my kidneys, they do their thing on their own, right? Like I can't decide to switch them on or off. They just do their things on their own. They're just automatic. Yeah. But my hands, they need me to think about what they're going to do. They don't. They don't, at some other point just start operating on their own. Yeah. But the breath, if I don't focus on it, it just does its own thing. Right. But if I focus on it, I can control it. So it's a really interesting point. The breath, it gives us a way into controlling it on our, our autonomic nervous system.

Pat 23:04

Yeah.

Rich 23:04

So when you breathe in a very regular pattern like that, you regulate the nervous system. So that can be, and it can be incredibly powerful. Right. And there's many, many other things you can do with the breath, and perhaps it would probably be a good topic for us to talk about at some point. Be the breath. And an old supervisor of mine is doing her doctorate in the therapeutic use of the breath at Warwick University, which is very cool. So yeah, breath's really important. But the thing about anxiety, pat, right, from a psychological perspective is that anxiety, and I don't need to just kind of flow this, your whole, you know, like the topic outta the water, right? But anxiety is actually like. In some ways it's like, I'm meaning this term, but because anxiety can be so many different things. Yeah. Like it can be, so it can be a word that's applied to so many different aspects of the human experience. Yeah. So it can be like a kind of cognitive thing, you know? It can be, you know, like thinking errors. Right. You know, thinking that I should be able to control something that I can't, yeah. Or that I need to control something that I can't, can also be very much like related to like traumatic symptoms, you know? So like nervous system dysregulation, you know, it can be caused by not breathing properly. Yeah. Like it could be caused by food. It can be caused by, you know, one thing that I. So I did read

Pat 24:27

that it can be

Rich 24:27

caused by a

Pat 24:28

day,

Rich 24:29

all sorts of things. One thing I learned early on was when you're a assist, someone comes into your consulting room and tells you you're anxious. A really good question to ask them might be how much coffee they drink a day.'cause if they tell you they drink 14 cup of coffee a day, yeah. Then there may be a very simple solution to their problem. Mm. Yeah. Like, and they can do all the box breathing they like, but if they're still drinking 14 cups of strong coffee a day like that, it's not gonna make too much difference. So anxiety can cover a whole load of different things. So sometimes the breathing, some tapping, um, some mindful awareness, you know, sensory exercises that help you focus your attention in the moment in the room, um, on different like textures or sight or smells or sounds. That kind of regulation stuff is, can be really, really, really helpful. Um,'cause it's just getting the, getting a system which is out of whack, back into regulation. So if someone's traumatized, they might live on or on the edge of their fight or flight. System all the time. Right. And that anxiety actually is like, it, it suck. That's

Pat 25:41

what, yeah. Yeah. That, I read that in the article I was reading on.

Rich 25:45

Yeah.

Pat 25:46

Some people are living in, you're in a fight or flight mood, all the mode all the time, which horrible for all those things. All those things I've read, it's wrecking your, your nervous system heart and your brain mind.

Rich 25:58

Yeah, exactly that. Right. So the flood, you know, a system's overly flooded with like cortisone adrenaline all the time. Yeah.

Pat 26:05

Yes.

Rich 26:05

So like, anxiety can be many, many different things to many different people, and you can slice it many different ways, spiritually, psychologically, physiologically, neurobiologically, cognitively, you know, are many different things to many different people. But the view of the thought about that is that there are many solutions, you know, and a really powerful one is prayer. Right. You know, a really powerful one is prayer. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm sure. Yeah, which is that.

Pat 26:30

Yeah, that's the solution that, that has been, uh, for mine or whatever level. One other thing you mentioned tapping, uh, first on the box thing, just so people understand.'cause it has worked for me and I'll do it a lot before I perform. I just had a show over now, a place I was driving. I've got loft to GPS had me all messed up. I'm all trying to find, I'm getting late to the thing. I'm, it is starting to rain now. I can't see and. Uh, but I, I tried it and what it is, is what he said, uh, what Richard said, it's to the count of four, breathe in, like one Mississippi, two Mississippi, three, Mississippi, four. Right? Then you hold for the same count, you know, a slow count, 1, 2, 3, 4, and then exhale deeply, 1, 2, 3, 4, and then you do it four times, right? Yeah, I did that. I honestly felt myself, and I'm doing this, driving down the road, I could feel myself calming. So, if people, you know, if you're running into things like that, that is something that works. You said tapping. That was another thing I had read that, that soldiers used to do. Back in the ancient times when you would, you know, you'd see in movies, you'd see'em pounding. Their chest. You said tapping there was actually something physiological that happens in there.

Rich 27:50

Yeah.

Pat 27:50

When they tap, when right up here, you know? Right above the neck or the clavicle. Is that the clavicle?

Rich 27:56

I believe so.

Pat 27:58

Yeah, I know a few things. I learned a few things along the way, Richard, but if you give it a good few pop, pop, pop, there's something in there that kind of helps, release whatever chemicals you need. Uh, but to start, to wrap things up, the, the solution I've always found is, is pre, and it's why I have so much less anxiety first. When, when that role, when that. Google search starts in my mind. Sometimes I just start laughing. I just start thinking of all of the times that God has brought me through things. All of the times that I thought things were going ha all of the times that I thought things weren't going to go well. Just remembering God's faithfulness, remembering God's trust. It's easier the older you get because you have. Such a catalog to go from, you know, you because you've experienced it o over and over, but a lot of people don't have that. But when you put your thought it, it's like this. I read this thing from, uh, Billy Graham that says, uh. But'cause we're talking about solutions, but the Bible gives us a specific cure for anxiety and it's not a total cure because as Richard said, we're, you know, anxiety can come in all different forms and all different extremes, but that is to trust God, turn our worries and anxieties over to him. And you think of it this way, imagine for a moment that a worry is like a heavy burden. Like you're carrying a, a big backpack filled with rocks, you want it to go away. You wishing it to go away. It's not gonna solve the problem, nor will hopefully, uh, simply hoping that it'll go lighter. But let's say you meet somebody who's stronger than you, and he offers to take the burden off your back and carry it up for you, what would you do? It would be foolish for you to keep carrying that anxiety instead. You gladly hand it over to him. Now, that's what God wants us to do with our burdens. Hand them over to him in faith. He knows all about us. He knows our problems. He knows all the things that concern us. And furthermore, he loves us and he wants to help us. And the Bible says anxiety is mentioned all throughout the Bible. All throughout the Bible, and it wouldn't be mentioned if it wasn't a major part of the human experiences. But in, Peter 1 5 7, cast all your anxiety on him because he cares about you. He's basically telling us this. And then he says in Corinthians, uh, one Corinthians 7 32, I want you to be free from anxiety. God's telling us that this is our father in heaven telling us he wants us to be free from anxiety. He knows we have it, and if we put our faith, put our trust in talking to him. I can't have anxiety when I'm praying. I've never had anxiety when I'm praying, when I would wake up and start thinking in any of these thoughts, I just start thinking, thanking God. I just start praying. I start thinking of all of the things that he's. That he's done for me always come through. The point is, the closer relationship you have with God, the more you're into God's word. The more you're listening, the more you're developing trust and the more that anxiety is going to go away from you and the more happy and the more joy filled life that you would feel. Uh, final thoughts there, rich?

Rich 31:11

I was looking at some other description, but you, you know, you hit a lot of it, but Philippians four. Verse six, do not worry about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving, let your requests be known to God and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds in Jesus Christ. And it's that. And in some more modern translations, it, it replaces, um. The word worry with anxiety. Yeah. It's just saying like, give it to God, man, and leave it at the foot cross. I don't find that easy all the time, you know? But more often I'm able to do that, you know, it helps, like, it definitely helps. You know, I can be, I'm quite an anxious kind of character, really, you know? Um, you know, she, I've been, you know. Been a lot, you know, nervous system, kind of better than it was, but kind of all been outta shape by years of addiction and trauma and all that sort of stuff that happened to me. Um, yeah. But like the more I can do that, then the more it helps. And also what I find is that even if I'm feeling anxious, having that kind of place to return to of like, you know what, I might be up, I might be anxious, and at the same time, right. I know it's gonna be okay. You know, I know it's gonna pass, but I know that like it's all gonna be okay and it's all, everything that's happening around me is actually only so important in the context of, you know, knowing that I'm part of so much greater. So those would be more closing. Closing thoughts? Patrick McCall.

Pat 32:54

Those are excellent. And again, I think that place that you return to actually, that is reality. That's reality. When you, when you're returning to trusting God, that's reality. And what we do is we kind of, we get away from that. The more we get away from it, the more we don't trust the more. We put our head in the word scripture. What's the, uh, I can't think of the Bible verse, but it says, think on thoughts, think on pure thoughts. Lovely thoughts. And th but. Think of good thoughts. Think of God's always been with you. He's always taken care of you. And what Richard said, you have that place to return to that, in my my opinion is reality, that God's here we, he wants us to live a peaceful life. He tells us over and over. In the Bible and anxiety is something that we can deal with.'cause that is something that I have really gotten a handle on.'cause I'm just like you. I was like you, Richard. I mean, when you, when you get, when you start getting in trouble at 13 or 14 and you are constantly getting in trouble, your mind is trained that really bad things are going to happen. But you don't have to go to the extremes that you and I have. You can be a person that have, as a child, a, a divorce messed your. You know, your, the life you knew of. You could be a person that had an ill, you could have things that happen in your life. Mm-hmm. That kind of train your mind to have these anxious thoughts, but you could also train your mind not to have'em in. The most perfect place to do it is living with the trust of our heavenly father.'cause he's watching us and he wants us to live a life of free, of anxiety like he just said. So thank you for your expertise. Rich gonna let you go.

Rich 34:39

Pleasure, Patrick. Oh yeah. I'll let you get back to the, let you get back to the, um, the moonshine.

Pat 34:46

Hey, the weather's getting good. The weather's getting good. They're starting to brew out here. I'm sure we got some good wood to go start the fire to get us a good old batch of shine, man.

Rich 34:57

You enjoy that.

Pat 34:57

I'll let you know when it, when it comes out. All right, man. Give uh, Shireen, uh, my, my regards and God bless everybody out there and we will see you next time.

Rich 35:08

Lovely. Thanks everybody. God bless. Bye-bye.