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MindSpa - The Podcast
MindSpa is your go-to podcast for insightful conversations on mental health. Hosted by Michelle, Tina, the owners of MindSpa, each episode features roundtable discussions on key mental health topics, along with guest interviews. From stress management to relationships and personal growth, MindTalk brings professional insights in an engaging and accessible way. Tune in weekly for valuable discussions that support your well-being and help you navigate life’s challenges.
MindSpa - The Podcast
Ep 2 Rewiring Your Thoughts Without Saying a Word
Your brain possesses a remarkable superpower that most people never fully access—the ability to change and heal itself. Registered psychotherapist Yvonne Burwash joins us to reveal how neurofeedback taps into this natural capacity, offering a non-invasive, drug-free approach to mental health that often succeeds where other treatments have fallen short.
With contagious enthusiasm, Yvonne explains how neurofeedback works by measuring electrical activity in the brain and providing real-time feedback that teaches self-regulation. The beauty lies in its simplicity—clients simply relax while watching a screen that responds to their brainwave patterns, gradually training their brain to function more optimally. This approach has shown remarkable results for conditions ranging from anxiety and depression to ADHD and trauma, often within 20-40 sessions.
What makes neurofeedback truly revolutionary is how seamlessly it integrates with traditional psychotherapy. As Yvonne describes, many clients find that "CBT works for me now" after neurofeedback helps get their brain unstuck. By addressing both physiological and psychological aspects of mental health, this combined approach creates deeper, more sustainable healing. The future looks even brighter with innovations like virtual reality neurofeedback, which promises to enhance effectiveness, especially for children who struggle with maintaining focus during traditional sessions.
The most powerful takeaway? Your brain is never permanently stuck in any state. Whether you've struggled with anxiety, sleep issues, trauma responses, or attention challenges, neurofeedback offers a path to transformation by harnessing your brain's natural neuroplasticity. Ready to discover what your brain is truly capable of? Listen now to learn how neurofeedback might be the missing piece in your mental health journey.
Today on MindTalk, we're thrilled to welcome Yvonne Burwash, a registered psychotherapist qualifying at MindSpa, serving our Kanata and Glossister locations. With a master's in counseling psychology from Yorkville and a bachelor in psychology with a neuroscience and mental health minor from Carleton, yvonne blends science and compassion in her work.
Speaker 2:Yvonne is a board-certified neurofeedback practitioner and director of neurofeedback at the Mind Spa, integrating brain training with talk therapy to support individuals aged 4 to 75. Yvonne offers adult psychotherapy for trauma, anxiety, depression, adhd and more. She combines evidence-based therapy approaches with tools like biofeedback and neurofeedback. Yvonne is innovative, holistic in her approach and helps clients not to just cope, but to thrive. Today she joins us to explore how neurofeedback and therapy work together to teach the brain self-regulation and unlock deep healing. Yvonne, welcome to MindTalk.
Speaker 3:Thank you, I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 2:We're excited to have you.
Speaker 1:So we do want to ask you a few questions, and so our first question is what drew you to neurofeedback, but also what is neurofeedback?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I guess it started when. So I've always had an interest in psychology, so I decided to go to Carleton just for psychology in the beginning. And then I got to a certain point and you know you have to have a certain amount of mandatory science credits. So I was like, yeah, let's try neuroscience, because I've always sort of been intrigued by the brain and its intricacies. So I added, I took one course and I just I was like, oh my goodness, this is it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I'm like this is all I need the bread and the butter.
Speaker 1:I love that, like I love it how just one class opens up your mind and you're like this is interesting, this engages me. Yeah, class opens up your mind and you're like this is interesting, this engages me, yeah.
Speaker 3:So from there I I added neuroscience and mental health as my minor and I just dove in headfirst, um, and then from there I guess I was just sort of I was coming to the end of my undergrad and kind of pondering like what, what does my future look like? Um, and I wasn't really sure because you know, I was kind of debating. I'm like, do I want to go into counseling? I'm like, but I still want to keep that neuroscience, but I want to have that brain bit incorporated. Um, and I wasn't really sure what that looked like. So I started doing some digging, um, and I came across neurofeedback and when I saw it and I looked at like what it was, I'm like, oh my gosh this is it, so you're just like Google, searching like jobs with the neuroscience?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was actually on. Yeah, I was sort of looking in like the Ottawa area and I was like what?
Speaker 1:Oh, that's good that there was a job posting then, because if there had been no neurofeedback job posting, you might not have even yeah, okay, yeah.
Speaker 3:So it was just I feel like the universe working with me in this moment. Um, and I saw it and I looked at the description and I was like, oh, my goodness this is it.
Speaker 3:Like this is everything I've dreamed of of the con like, con, like combining psychology and neuroscience into this beautiful thing called neurofeedback. Um, yeah, so I kind of went for it, not necessarily totally expecting that I would get it, cause, again, I I'd never heard of it until this moment Um, but I was very enthusiastic about it. I was so excited about the potential for what it could offer people, and I did. I ended up getting it.
Speaker 3:So from that point on, I was a neurofeedback technician and in terms of you know what is neurofeedback? It's basically a way for us to train our brain. So our brains have there's chemical and electrical communication. With neurofeedback, we're focusing on that electrical communication. It is incredible because it's non-invasive, it's a drug-free approach that really lets us tap into the individuality of each person and the possibility of their brain to make changes and live a well-rounded, beautiful life that maybe they didn't think was possible. So I think there's so much of it that I love and you know we'll we'll talk more about it, but it's it really like the more I do it, the more I fall in love with it.
Speaker 2:And you light up. When you talk about nerve feedback, yeah, you can talk about it for days.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think that's the best part is like since day one, that's how it's been for me of like I love talking about it. Anyone who knows me is like oh gosh here we go. We're going to be talking about this for hours. It's just, it's incredible what it can do.
Speaker 2:So for those, for our listeners, who have never seen NeuroCubec in action they don't know what it looks like. Walk us through if we had to kind of imagine. What does a NeuroCubec session look like? What is happening? It's not invasive, so it doesn't hurt. Yeah, so what does it look like?
Speaker 3:Well, that really depends. You know there's different types of neurofeedback. So you know, initially we would probably we'd have an intake. So I would just want to gather some background information. You know what are your goals for neurofeedback? Neurofeedback, it has such a wide range of applicability so you know whether your main goal is to reduce anxiety or, you know, maybe to improve sleep. We can sort of work with that. So after we've kind of gathered that background info, we'll do the brain mapping or the um, like an EEG recording. So we're mapping out the electrical activity in your brain. So we do that both with your eyes open and your eyes closed. Why?
Speaker 1:is that? Why is it important to get both readings, the open and closed?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so basically our brains, they are producing different speeds at like different moments of rest. So you know, when our eyes are open, generally speaking, we are like we're taking in so much visual information. Uh, you know, my brain's probably working a little bit faster right now as we're talking, a little bit more beta fast wave, um. But when I close my eyes I'm not taking in as much of that visual information and my brain isn't necessarily needing to work as hard to process. So typically, when we close our eyes, we want to see our brain slow down and move more into that resting state. We want more of that alpha wave which is classically known as our peaceful relaxation wave.
Speaker 2:Makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so Does that happen for everybody, though? Or sometimes do you look at the eyes closed and go, oh, they're a lot more relaxed, they're actually quite stressed.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that's why it can be so important to have the eyes open and the eyes closed is because, you know, when we look at the eyes closed and we see, oh wow, you know we're seeing a lot more slow wave, we're seeing a lot more beta, maybe not enough enough alpha wave. This can give us some um insight into what that person is experiencing, especially, you know, if there is someone who has, like, has experiences of PTSD, um, or has experienced trauma, we might see some of those patterns more so in the eyes closed than we would see in the eyes open. Sleeping disorders as well. We might see a lot more in the eyes closed than we would see in the eyes open. So we always want to do both eyes open and eyes closed at that resting state to see, you know what is the full? Uh, you know the full effect. Yeah, the full picture of what we're looking at.
Speaker 1:So it sounds like you can find out a lot about what's going on with the person just by looking at their EEG.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, you can. It's interesting when you see or when I look at a brain map and I see the different patterns, I can almost make some predictions or be like, oh, my guess is, maybe you have some difficulty with sleep, Maybe you have insomnia, Maybe there is more mood dysregulation or emotional dysregulation. I can make those sort of predictions. And a lot of times too, when I'm kind of going over this brain map with a client, you know it can be very validating for them to see oh wow, my brain is actually showing like what I'm feeling.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's the thing, right. Clients often say like is it just in my head?
Speaker 1:And it's like yeah, literally it's in your head, yeah, yeah, that validating piece. So so you get the map, you see, and you've had an interview with them, so they've told you some of the symptoms that they're dealing with. Now you're looking at the map and then what happens? What happens after that?
Speaker 3:So yeah, so after we do the map and everything, we, you know, I go through all that with the client. We put together a report for them and I'll sit down and just walk them through exactly what they're like, how their brain is functioning, how that's correlating to their experience and what we're going to do. So with the, what we're going to do, the next piece is what types of neurofeedback are going to be the most effective in getting you to reach those goals that you've indicated. So at Mindswell we have a few different types of neurofeedback. We have more traditional forms. So those are based off of operant conditioning. It's a learning based neurofeedback.
Speaker 3:There is no, like I said, it's non-invasive. There's no stimulation or anything going to the brain. In this case, it is simply the electrodes are picking up on electrical activity and it's reflecting it back through a form of feedback. So it could be visual feedback, so the client might be watching, like a Netflix show, where they're getting different effects, that is, teaching their brain to make the changes we are trying to implement. Or it could be auditory, where, in the case if it was an eyes closed protocol, they're of course, not going to be watching anything. They'll be listening to something that is changing in real time according to their brain waves, in time with what we're trying to teach their brain.
Speaker 3:So let's say, for example, their brain is producing too much fast wave and that's what's contributing to a large amount of their anxiety. We might want to try to reduce that, like bring the high beta down. So in doing that, the electrodes are sort of picking up on that real-time EEG and it's feeding back to the screen where you know, if their brain is producing too much of that fast wave, they're not going to be able to see what they're watching as clearly. There will be different effects Either it's going to play and pause or it'll be like zooming in and out on the screen and their brain is sort of subconsciously picking up on this. So their brain, over time, is making these subtle changes to reduce that high beta, in turn helping them to reduce those symptoms of anxiety.
Speaker 1:Okay. So when they're sitting there in their training, just naturally they'll stop. They won't always be making all that fast brainwave, brainwave. So as soon as their, their brain just naturally doesn't make that fast brainwave, the the it picks up on it and it'll show it on the screen that like oh, you've brought it down. And then, over time, your brain learns oh, this is what I'm trying to do. Yeah, exactly yeah.
Speaker 3:That reward of like the visual, like the clear visual of the screen, is what's sort of triggering their brain to. You know, make those changes. So, of course, with that, as you can think, you know it's a based off of learning, it's a gradual process. So you know, it's the same as if you were going to go and start doing like a workout regimen. You're not going to, you know, go once or twice and be like great, like I've reached that goal, we're good to go. It's going to take some time to get to that point where we start to see those longer term solid changes.
Speaker 1:So how long, how late? How long is it typical for people to start noticing differences?
Speaker 3:From my, from my experience, I would say it's probably anywhere between like 20 to 40 sessions. That's for seeing more of the like, the longer term change, um, in terms of like, when you can first start to see those changes it's. It's interesting because it could be after a few sessions. It could be maybe upwards of 10 sessions depends on the person exactly.
Speaker 3:It's very individual. So, um, I think that's the beauty in it as well. As you know, everybody's brain is different and they respond differently to the treatment. So, you know, I like to meet with everybody at like every 10 sessions. At the first 10 sessions. That's really the point where I'm sort of seeing are we starting to see these small changes that are taking hold? If not, what do we need to do? Do we need to adjust the protocol? Do we need to make any changes? What are you doing outside of neurofeedback that could also be impacting how this is going? Are you working on sleep hygiene or getting good sleep? What is your nutrition like?
Speaker 3:Do you get any form of physical activity or exercise. All those factors are also important.
Speaker 2:So that's a good point. There's other factors, and so how then, could neurofeedback be integrated with therapy, right? So, for example, if it is a sleep hygiene piece or if it is a PTSD piece, how do the two sort of connect? How are they integrated with each other?
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's a couple of different ways that I see them integrating quite nicely. One is just, you know, in some cases with talk therapy it doesn't always reach those corners that you want it to. It's not always as effective, but the combination, you know, that initial let's do a neurofeedback session, work a little bit with the brain, kind of get it out of that stuckness that it's in, and then using the talk therapy to just you know what was that like? You know, maybe in some cases it elicits other emotions or feelings. Let's talk about that. Um, it can be a great way to sort of nudge the brain before we we get into discussing it and incorporating it. That way can be so great, I think. Also, it just targets the nervous system in such a different way where, you know, with neurofeedback we're really getting at that central nervous system, that brain, the spinal cord, where with therapy we can also integrate more of like the autonomic system as well. So we're really getting at it from so many different ways.
Speaker 3:So more holistic, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sounds like a perfect pair.
Speaker 3:It is.
Speaker 1:Well, I feel like and what I understand too there's, there's that that whole trauma piece. A lot of times as trauma therapists you have to get a level of a baseline calm. We have to get that nervous system actually regulated before we actually dive into the trauma work.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that, like with neurofeedback, that can be a great way to sort of you know for a lot of like that hypervigilance piece. Okay, let's calm that down, that hyperarousal. That may not be an effective place to start with talk therapy. Let's get you to a calmer state where there's more flexibility with your regulation as well. Like, can we go from a more aroused state? Because of course that's going to happen, but how are you able to come back down to this baseline of calm? And neurofeedback can help with that flexibility of shifting between these states.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've seen that, especially in my PTSD clients who do neurofeedback right, just even having them have their neuro sessions before getting into the trauma therapy how that almost like primes them and preps them.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right and they're more able to now explore their trauma in a regulated state versus being dysregulated and still trying to explore or process their traumas as well too. Have you found that it works well when you're doing it either like before a trauma processing session versus after? What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 3:Honestly, I think it can have benefits on both in both scenarios. I personally, I love doing it beforehand because I do like that sort of you know, getting into that calm state. It also depending like where they're coming from, like if they were coming from work, or they're like running up the stairs, they're going to be more activated and I think, getting into that mindset of neurofeedback of you know, generally speaking, they're sitting in a comfortable chair, you know, we got the weighted blanket, we got the weighted animals, like it's such a comfortable, peaceful place. I think that also plays a huge role into okay, and then they're moving over to the therapy. So we've got them comfortable, we've got them like their brain has sort of, you know, maybe stabilized. It's in more of like a state of calm. Now let's send them over and then they can, they can talk through some of this stuff.
Speaker 3:The other part too is like, if you do it at the end, I see that as also being extremely helpful in terms of, okay, maybe you just did a really tough therapy session, like a lot of stuff was talked about and pulled up and you're feeling all the emotions. I see neurofeedback in that case being so helpful to then bring back a state of calm. And you know regrounding like recentering yourself to then take on the rest of the day. So maybe, like you've just had a tough session, you're not immediately leaving and going back out into the world. You have that neurofeedback to sort of bring you back to that center.
Speaker 2:Almost grounding.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I love that.
Speaker 1:Well, another thing I wanted to ask you about, because you just did a very interesting training in virtual reality and neurofeedback, so can you talk a little bit about incorporating virtual reality?
Speaker 3:into neurofeedback. Yeah, honestly, I am so excited about it. It was very, very interesting and enlightening. I learned a lot about just how they can, you know, be integrated together. I think virtual reality offers such a different experience for people, and I think it's one that potentially could have greater effects in terms of what people see and change, like the change they notice, because it's so immersive. You know the 2d, like what we would be just looking at a screen and watching something. Yes, it's effective, I've seen it be effective. But there's something about when you're in, you know this virtual reality, and it's not virtual, like it's not in the way of like you're actively like, actively like doing something, um, it's just your whole perfect, like you're just like in that zone, um, and there's something so immersive and like the presence that you feel in that that I I see being so, so important in our future for neurofeedback. I can see it having like huge, huge impacts.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I feel like the training also sort of highlighted to just using virtual reality on its own and therapy, for I mean, I think it's been explored a lot recently with exposure therapy specifically, but the training sort of showed how it could also be used differently. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think just in and this is something I'm very excited to sort of showed how it could also be used differently. Yeah, yeah, I think just in and this is something I'm very excited to sort of incorporate into my own practice. But, you know, having that virtual reality as maybe it's something we do in the beginning of the session um, as like a grounding, like let's go into that, like nature retreat, it's calming, calming. We got the music, it's just like the whole, the whole scenario, it it puts you into this alternate state of like peace, um, and then again let's, and then let's get into the therapy piece, let's work on things, because we all agree that sort of therapy is best done coming from a regulated place, a place where someone is feeling calm to talk about.
Speaker 1:I think that's sometimes a fear I think people have about doing therapy is that they think the point is to get dysregulated or to get upset or to cry, or. But really, at the end of the day, it's okay for all of that stuff to happen, it's acceptable, it's okay. We're never going to be afraid of it, of it, but at the same time, you don't have to go there either.
Speaker 2:um, it's not the point yeah, yeah, no, it's so true, and I think again, this virtual reality option is going to be huge for clinicians in terms of, you know, starting from that regulated standpoint, yeah I think one of the things that stood out to me with the VR training was the impact that can have, even when you're doing work with children, Especially because children are used to being whether it's 2D or whether it's in immersed in a kind of way. But I think that that's one piece that I see it being really effective as well, too, in addition to the grounding piece.
Speaker 2:but even using it with children.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because we haven't talked at all about ADHD and zero feedback, right, so tell us more about that, oh my gosh, it's huge.
Speaker 3:It's huge. You know, I find it kind of just ties into the range of like ages that I work with and you know, it's a lot easier for me to, you know, have an adult sit and be like, okay, this is what we're doing, and they're just, they're going to sit and they're going to watch, and that's that. With a kid, there's a lot more nuances to it, where you know they're sitting there and then they're looking up and then they're like spinning around.
Speaker 3:That's an outside of your feedback too, yeah, and then they're like tapping, and then they're like playing with something else and then twirling their hair and then they're like, oh, this is kind of like the ear clip is kind of itchy and they're like, you know, like they're, yeah, they're like touching the electrodes and I'm like, ok, and I think you know part of it is the effect. So when they're watching that feedback, they're watching Netflix, but there are those effects that come on the screen and sometimes that can make them lose interest because they're like, oh, I can't see it anymore, I don't want to watch it. Which understandable. Like I get it, I want to watch it too. No-transcript entertainment for them and like engagement level. That I think is going to be groundbreaking because you know if the child is not fully paying attention to what they're supposed to be doing, it's not going to be as effective. So with this virtual reality, I think it draws that interest in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it locks out all the distractors that could be in the environment.
Speaker 3:Yeah, all of a sudden they're not being distracted by that exactly and, and you know, maybe they're distracted in the virtual, like in that realm they're like, maybe they're touching some things with the virtual, but you know what that's okay. You know when their main focus is just in that world.
Speaker 3:I think that's going to be so effective for kids to maintain that focus and attention on the purpose of like what they're trying to do there it requires more of that requires more of their attention as well, too, in that space yeah, and like you said too, like with the headset, like you're wearing a full virtual reality headset it blocks out everything else they can't. Like they're not going to be able to fidget with what's like right around them. They're not going to hear the car Like well, they might hear the cars outside, but you know they're not going to have that like instant reaction of Ooh, what's over there? Um. So I think it will offer quite a different, um, yeah, quite a different learning experience. Me too.
Speaker 2:Heading edge Love it.
Speaker 1:Actually, I wanted to ask you something too, because something, um, because something that people often don't know is about neurofeedback, is to talk a little bit about how trying in neurofeedback, how trying to make the neurofeedback work or the screen work, how that impacts, because do you get that?
Speaker 2:Like where people are, like am I doing it right or I'm not doing? I'm not doing it well, like how?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, it's, it's so common, um and I think that's where a lot of the frustration or disinterest can come in is that people are like, well, like it's not working. I'm like it is, but you're trying too hard, and you know it's something you never think that you would say, but it's true. There is such thing as trying too hard. In neurofeedback. It's very passive. In the way that you are, you are like a passenger in this process. Yes, you are watching the feedback and you're sort of being in the present moment and aware, but you can't force it to work. You can't, you know, thinking about trying to make it like move or play more it actually it works in the opposite way of the more you try, the more it's not going to play.
Speaker 3:So you actually, like you want to tap into this state of calm and really, like you know, just be aware, be in the present moment. Notice when there's more effects there and you can't see it. Notice when you can see it more, you know it's going to be.
Speaker 1:It's a huge self-awareness tool.
Speaker 3:It is a huge self-awareness tool so many people you know that's part of this process is going outside of the neurofeedback room and noticing. You know those little intricacies of awareness of, oh, I didn't like I maybe wouldn't have noticed that before, but there's this new self-awareness. So part of it is just going inward and being more present with that feeling and noticing and eventually the idea is you'll be able to generalize that You'll notice like, oh wow, I got into that state a lot easier from the neurofeedback. My attention was a lot better because of the neurofeedback.
Speaker 2:So the idea is that you carry that same level of self-awareness outside of that session.
Speaker 1:That's just part of it, yeah.
Speaker 2:If you're in a state where anxiety is high, recognizing when I do certain breathing or do certain things, that brings down my anxiety levels, like it did when I did my neuro session.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. So when you're sitting in the neuro session and like, let's say, our goal is to reduce anxiety, noticing maybe what you're feeling when those bubbles go away or when you can see the screen more clearly, you know, was there a shift in your body? Was there a shift in your brain? What was happening there? Um, so there is that degree of presence and awareness that you need, but you don't want to be sitting there like glaring at the tv and like it's gonna work. It's gonna work, it's gonna work.
Speaker 1:It's actually internal focus not an external.
Speaker 3:Exactly that too, in itself is like. A lot of people will like start squinting and I'm like but now we're getting all that muscle tension and we're not even training what we're training anymore, because we're training the muscle tension.
Speaker 1:So we want people to like maintain that relaxation even in their muscles, and that's what the tech does sort of. That's what the person in the room is going to help do They'll notice if something's off, and then they'll sort of say coaching, then Exactly.
Speaker 3:You know, like, let's say, tina was sitting here doing neurofeedback and she was like all tensed up and like suddenly she just like couldn't see the screen. Of course that's going to be fresh. I would be frustrated. But you know, me being there as the technician, I would be like hey, you know, I'm noticing maybe there's like a little bit more tension. Let's just like roll our shoulders back. You know, if your jaw is feeling tight, let's do some little circles on your jaw, like maybe stretch your neck, and then we come back and that tension has sort of melted away.
Speaker 2:So yeah, Okay, I love that. I think that's an important piece because sometimes we do hold tension in parts of our body without even noticing it and we don't realize that we're doing it unless we're able to release it. But that brings that closer awareness to us and it also helps us impact change that we're looking for. Um, I love all the talk about brains. What do you think we need to know about brains? What is important for us to know when it comes to how our brains work, how our brains like, how malleable they are? What is important for us to know about brains?
Speaker 3:I think the main thing that comes to my mind is just the fact that, like our brains are malleable as you said, like there's so much, it's called like neuroplasticity Our brains have this incredible ability to adapt and change to our changing environment, and neurofeedback is something that can help us sort of like elevate that changing to like kind of integrate it, you know. So I think that's the thing with brains is so many people just assume you know, I've been this way my whole life Like I'm not going to, it's not going to change, and that's not true. Like your brain is constantly changing on a day-to-day basis, you know, and in doing this it facilitates that change. It's like like holding the hand and like let's go you know yeah.
Speaker 3:It's. It's incredible Our brains have have like a superpower and not a lot of people know it's something that they can tap into.
Speaker 2:Knowing that in and of itself is healing and validating that I don't stay stuck in this brain state.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. I think people identify a lot with their brain. State Like this is who I am, just their self-talk. With that voice inside their head they're like that's me, that's who I am.
Speaker 1:But I always love when I first learned that concept of actually, you are the one who hears the voice, you are not the speaker, you're the listener. That is actually a more consistent state is your listener, not your speaker, and all you need is to know that time where you went to bed, your mind is cycling on all these things that you're worried about. They feel like the end of the world. Then you wake up the next morning, you think about the same things and you're like none of those seem so bad, right, and so it's just, the voice isn't talking to me in this like oh my God, kind of way. Now it's just saying, okay, I need to do this, I need to do that, and so. But the listener, on the other hand, is the one that sort of is more, more consistent. And so I think that if people can learn that they can actually change the speaker, they can change their brain, cause that they can change their brain because, that's the thing.
Speaker 1:When I'm more calm, those thoughts will be more calm. When I'm happier, those thoughts will be happier. It won't be looking at things so doom and gloom. But people just say, oh, I'm just a negative person or I'm just sometimes say realist yeah, and you know, like it.
Speaker 3:With that said, it kind of makes me think about, you know, the piece of like integrating neuro with therapy, because you know, in a lot of cases it's that hard. Like the piece of like integrating neuro with therapy because you know, in a lot of cases it's that hard, like that piece of I'm so stuck I can't like they're having a really hard time in talk therapy of trying to to get out of that stuck state, Like it's so hard to like rewire that. But neurofeedback is that sort of other method of okay, well, let's target it from a different standpoint. Let's sort of you know, let's like we don't need to talk about it. Your brain's going to kind of do the change, like do the work itself. We can talk about it later. But you know, let's try this other method.
Speaker 1:So that's another way in terms of neurofeedback can be used when maybe therapy likeotherapy isn't isn't working as well as like you had hoped it would or someone wants to do therapy, but they don't really want to talk about it, exactly because I think that there's some people that realize that they're stuck, but like I don't, I don't want to open that up, I don't want to talk about it, and they don't realize they can actually get a lot of benefits from yeah, it's almost like the top-down approach or the bottom upup approach, right, like I can do the cognitive work and therapy and look at the stuck points and my cognitive distortion and things like that.
Speaker 2:Or bottom-up, where it's like I'm looking at how this is affecting me physiologically and bringing that part of my nervous system down to a place where it's more regulated than dysregulated.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And there are certain things too, just in terms of like, like. When people like they come in with their presenting concerns or what their goals are going to be, and some of them, you know, when I'm talking to them, I'm like okay, I think neurofeedback would be a great fit to address these pieces of like what you're describing, but I think psychotherapy would be more beneficial for this. So, like self-esteem, like wanting to like, enhance self-esteem Neurofeedback isn't going to do that. Um, that's going to be more of like a psychotherapy piece. But you know, if more of like emotional regulation or just self-regulation in general, yeah, neurofeedback can do that. So that's where that combination might be really great to. Okay, let's regulate the like your, your brain, let's bring it to a more balanced state, and then also let's do the talk therapy and let's work on that self-esteem. What does that look like?
Speaker 1:Well, I've had people say to me and I found it really fascinating that after they did neurofeedback they said CBT works for me now. So all those tools that we're teaching about, like there's the cognitive restructure, right, so we have this automatic thought that comes and we want to change that automatic thought. But I do find that sometimes, like when the brain is really stuck in the state that it's in, no matter how many tools they use to change the way they think, like that automatic thought just is staying really stuck. And so I always thought that was really fascinating that after some neuro they're like oh, those tools that you taught me actually work now, in a way that I found them not working for me before.
Speaker 2:Yeah, are there any downsides to neurofeedback or any risks or anything like that, or do you find that? What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 3:Honestly, no, like it really depends. So we have another type of neuro called high, called high performance neurofeedback or HPN. That one is stimulation based. It's very low frequency stimulation that one can sometimes cause like exacerbation of symptoms, so like fatigue, uh, maybe some dizziness, anxiety, very, very rare, like very rare, it doesn't happen often Irritability Irritability, yeah, um, just like difficulty sleeping with that. Same with like traditional neurofeedback. You know, someone does a session like the first couple of sessions. I'm like you're going to feel tired, like you're doing like you're doing a workout for your brain.
Speaker 3:Um, that's really it. Uh, there's really not like with traditional neuro. Because it's not invasiveinvasive like there's, there's not much risk associated with it. Hpn yeah, that's the one I would say, maybe a little bit more. Even then, though it's so rare, we always, because there is that low frequency stim, we will start lower and kind of adjust the protocol session by session rather than starting off high. But you know, with that I've seen some incredible results. That one is one where you know one person might notice changes after a first session. One person. It might take five to ten sessions to find the right spot. It's such a beautiful thing.
Speaker 2:That's amazing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Just in wrapping up, is there anything like any final no, any final thing about neurofeedback that you just want our listeners to know and understand?
Speaker 3:Hmm, um, I think, really just the idea that, like your brain, does have that natural ability to change and you know it, it does have this magical power. From what I've seen and witnessed firsthand, it has incredible results and, yes, it's something that's becoming more and more heard about, especially here in Ottawa, but, you know, I think it's not heard about enough and the power that it holds to create change within someone's life. I think that's what I want people to know is that it doesn't need to be a last resort. It can be like a first option for you in, you know, going in a route that's non-invasive, like non-drug. You know this is such a great opportunity to tap into your brain's potential and really make those changes.
Speaker 2:I love that. It really sounds like a great option and a great alternative for many people, and I'm so glad that we had this conversation. I'm so glad that we're able to bring more awareness to neurofeedback in an area that's not often talked about, and so thank you so much for your insight and your knowledge. We really appreciate it, and so do our listeners.
Speaker 1:Thank you Thanks.
Speaker 2:Yvonne.
