MindSpa - The Podcast
MindSpa is your go-to podcast for insightful conversations on mental health. Hosted by Michelle, Tina, the owners of MindSpa, each episode features roundtable discussions on key mental health topics, along with guest interviews. From stress management to relationships and personal growth, MindTalk brings professional insights in an engaging and accessible way. Tune in weekly for valuable discussions that support your well-being and help you navigate life’s challenges.
MindSpa - The Podcast
Ep 5 The Art of Boundaries
Setting boundaries shouldn't leave you feeling guilty, yet so many of us question whether we're "the bad guy" when we prioritize our mental wellbeing. Join therapists Tina and Michelle as they tackle three compelling real-life scenarios where people are caught in this exact dilemma.
First, we explore the case of a bridesmaid struggling with burnout who needs to step back from wedding duties. When does self-care become "selfish" in the eyes of others, and how can we recognize when guilt is misleading us? Michelle shares her own experience of navigating wedding party responsibilities as a new mother, offering practical insights for maintaining relationships while honoring your limitations.
Next, we delve into the delicate situation of a woman grieving a miscarriage who can't bring herself to attend her sister's baby shower. We unpack the unique nature of grief, the shame that often surrounds pregnancy loss, and why family dynamics can make these boundaries particularly challenging to establish.
The conversation culminates with an examination of relationship ultimatums—specifically, requiring therapy before moving in together. We challenge the persistent stigma around mental health support, reframing therapy not as punishment but as a luxury everyone deserves access to.
Throughout our discussion, we offer practical strategies for communicating boundaries effectively, recognizing your emotional limits, and standing firm when others push back. Whether you're struggling with people-pleasing tendencies or trying to support someone who's setting boundaries, this episode provides valuable perspective on honoring your needs without sacrificing important relationships.
Want us to address your specific boundary dilemma? Send us your scenario through the email in our show notes, and we might feature it anonymously in an upcoming episode.
they. They don't seem to realize they have anger issues, yeah, right, and that they have emotional volatility and that that might be where some of the defensiveness is sort of coming from. Like I don't have a problem with this, yeah, and it's like no, but but you do, hey I'm tina and I'm michelle, from burnout and relationships to identity and healing and more.
Speaker 2:We're talking about what really matters.
Speaker 1:With expert guests and real life stories. This is a space to feel seen, heard and supported. Let's grow through what we go through together. Welcome back, we're really excited to have you here for this episode. We are going to be talking about some scenarios and really doing a deep dive on them. So, Michelle, do you want to read out our first scenario?
Speaker 2:I do, I do, and I think these are all very relatable ones, which is why I'm excited to talk about it. So the first one is about the burned out bridesmaids. So this poster has been struggling with anxiety and burnout for months, and it's been exasperated by work stressors and a recent breakup. And despite loving her best friend dearly, she feels overwhelmed by the responsibility and the cost of being her best friend's bridesmaid. So when she tells her friend that she needs to step back, the friend accuses her of being selfish and ruining the wedding vibe. And so her question is am I the jerk for dropping out of my best friend's wedding because I'm too mentally exhausted to be a part of it?
Speaker 1:Great question. This is such a good one because I feel like these are types of things that people come into therapy for all the time. Like is this normal? Am I a terrible person? Because I imagine they're probably getting feedback from a subset of people being like suck it up, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that narrative is coming from somewhere. It's not always their own narrative, but it's coming from somewhere, yeah.
Speaker 1:But it's also a really, really tough situation, because your friend is only getting married one time.
Speaker 2:I know.
Speaker 1:This is not like they're asking them to do something forevermore, right, and you're saying I can't take that on, yeah, while at the same time you can't pour from an empty cup, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's funny because I've been there.
Speaker 1:Oh okay, yeah, Tell it's funny because I've been there, oh okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, tell me more. So I had a friend who was getting married and she invited me to be her bridesmaid and we're really close roommates, like sister vibes, yeah, and but the thing is I was, I want to say, two months postpartum, oh wow. So I had just had a baby, I was recovering C-section, like I was. It was a moment, you know, and so I was like I know that being a bridesmaid requires literally being a maid, but it requires you to work like you're gonna have to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're gonna have to do things. It's early mornings, it's running around, it's what does a bride need? It's being expensive. It's expensive, and this was a destination wedding too, so it wasn't even in.
Speaker 1:Ottawa super expensive. Expensive then I had to.
Speaker 2:You know all of that piece Right and so it was tough. My friend was not responsive like this person was like she was not the jerk and saying it was selfish, like she was understanding of it. Right, and I think that makes a difference as well. Right In terms of like, okay, is it me, that's is, is, is, am I the? Or is the response that I'm getting around me making?
Speaker 1:me feel that way.
Speaker 2:You know, whereas I think it's important to lean into what we're needing and so I wasn't able to be a bridesmaid, I did fly down for her wedding with the baby. I helped her plan a bridal shower, like I took. I did what I could do.
Speaker 2:And I think that's the important thing is recognize like you have limitations and lean into those. Whatever it is that you can do, that's what you want to be able to focus on, but don't push yourself beyond those limitations because, again, like you said, how do you pour from an empty cup?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely yeah. I mean, what comes to mind for me as well, is sort of that guilt piece.
Speaker 2:Yeah, huge Right.
Speaker 1:And guilt is something that we talk about incessantly right.
Speaker 1:In therapy. People often feel guilty and it's funny because I always think about it in how we're parented, guilt is actually used a lot to teach us what good behavior is and what bad behavior is. So parents often use that sort of like guilt-inducing conversation. It's like is that really how you want to do things? Maybe you should, but then I think it actually creates an oversensitive guilt complex, and so my favorite strategy with guilt is to tell people okay guilt, I mean, thank God, we have it right. Can you imagine if?
Speaker 2:we didn't we need it. It helps us, it guides us, it directs us. Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Check in what is my behavior Am.
Speaker 2:I the evil Am, I a jerk Am.
Speaker 1:I in the wrong.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But I think sometimes you don't go that step further to then go no, but I'm not. And therefore guilt did its job to check in. Guilt isn't there to just constantly push on me. It's there to check in, to gauge on this constantly push on me. Is there to check in the gauge. And then it was like yep, I am, yeah, I need to change my behavior. Then think you did your job.
Speaker 1:I need to change my behavior or nope, don't need to change my behavior and I can let it go. But then when you do have other people cause, I mean when the friend is is very convinced you are you are the jerk. In this situation it's easy to get in your head and start going wait, what am I not seeing? What am I not seeing? What am I not seeing? Right? And I'd wonder a lot about the reciprocity in this relationship.
Speaker 1:If the friend if that's their sort of go-to, if they can't understand the context that's provided here on what's going on with this person, that they have a lot of stress going on in their lives and they're really they're burnt out. Burnout, which we'll do a whole episode on Right Burnout we use as this word of like I'm burnt out. Burnout, which we'll do a whole episode on Burnout we use as this word of like I'm burnt out. So similar to how we I'm anxious and all this kind of stuff, but like actual burnout we're not functioning.
Speaker 2:You don't want that. No Like on your day. They're actually doing you a favor, if anything. Yes, because you don't want that burnout energy to be a part of your day and that experience, because it shows up in different ways, you know. And so, if anything, recognize that as as a favor and not necessarily as like a downfall, because it's it changes the dynamics of things.
Speaker 1:Or even this concept that, like expressing your like boundaries right. Expressing hey, this is kind of where I'm at, this is what I'm capable of doing, this is what I'm not capable of doing, inherently makes you a jerk because you're saying I can't do everything you're asking me for. That's not great either. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's why people don't do it. That's why they don't always assert their boundaries, because I don't want to. We get into the whole like people pleasing thing, right, like I don't do it. But the idea, the goal is to get to a place where we recognize that all of our needs matter, like what you're needing matters and what I'm needing matters as well too. So, how do we make it work?
Speaker 1:Like you said, I do what I can and I say what I can do, and you brought up actually the word selfishness and I think the poster sort of brought up this concept of selfishness and again we, I think, misdefine what selfishness is, because selfishness it only has one connotation it's negative.
Speaker 2:You know some words like sensitive. You can go both ways oh they're sensitive, or oh they're sensitive.
Speaker 1:Right, but selfishness, no, it's one-sided, it's one-sided, it's only negative. Yeah, yeah, it's only negative, yeah, and as so, as soon as you label it selfishness, it has got this negative piece to it. But selfishness has this like unfair gain and advantage over the other person in a very one-sided but. I'm like benefiting, right, and you're losing, yeah, right, and so I mean, this isn't that it's not that it's not a win-lose situation.
Speaker 2:No, it's not one of those right. And so, again, it's almost a win-win Right, Because now the poster is able to lean into what they're able to do work within their limits or whatever capacity.
Speaker 2:And you're not having to be exposed to the results of their burnout Like you're not having to have that impact your day as well too, and the results of their burnout Like you're not having to have that impact to your day as well too. And so in a lot of ways, it's a win-win and they'll show up the way that they can show up, and so, whatever they're able to do best, believe they're going to do that and do that well. And so there has to be a level of acceptance that comes around that and definitely shifting how it's being seen as like selfish versus like you know what this could win situation somehow, some way.
Speaker 1:But I can see this scenario actually like ending the friendship. That's the thing which is too bad. It would be too bad. I actually think that the bride It'd be the bride's fault. Yeah, unfortunately, if it did end. If you can't accept that, your friend, it is very different if it was like I've been invited for like to do this for two weddings and I can't do it for two weddings and I've chosen this person over you and the reason being is uh, there's is, um, is like going to be more fun, like it's open bar.
Speaker 2:Sorry, that's right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I can see it's like we're sisters or we're best friends and you're going to go to this random like you chose them over me. Right, I can see a little bit more where the bride might have.
Speaker 2:But if they just don't have the capacity for it, then you need to meet them where they're at Bride's the a-hole 100%.
Speaker 1:So should we move on to the second scenario? Let's do that, okay. So I'm going to read it. Okay, so am I the jerk for not showing up to my sister's baby shower after losing a pregnancy? So background details the poster recently experienced a miscarriage and is still grieving. Her sister, who knows about the loss, invited her to a baby shower just two months later. She declined and explained why, but now extended family is calling her dramatic and unsupportive. Please.
Speaker 2:Louise, that's tough. Yeah, that's that's tough, yep, and I think this speaks like the greater piece around, like grief and how grief shows up differently for all of us, and grief is almost like that's it could be a very silent experience. And even if it's not a silent experience and others can relate to the grief, it's still going to be very individualized in terms of like how we're even navigating that grief, and I think that's exactly what the sisters recognize, like I'm grieving, yeah, I'm grieving, and at this point the wound is way too sore for me to be exposing it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I need to make sure that and go to celebrate and go to celebrate when I'm grieving the loss.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's hard.
Speaker 1:Absolutely and I think another piece to it you're absolutely right about grief. It shows up so differently and we know that there's the stages. Most people understand that there's sort of these different stages of grief and so what can happen is people can interact with you. When maybe you're in the denial, where you're feeling emotionally numb to it, you actually would, on the outside, look like you're over it, because actually acceptance, we know, and denial look a actually would on the outside, look like you're over it, because actually acceptance, we know, and denial look a lot alike for sure outside, even on the inside, they can actually feel pretty similar. Um, and then people are going well, I don't understand, you did this thing this day. Let's say, yeah, why can't you? It's been two months, why can't?
Speaker 1:you actually go to this, yeah, and it's like well no, that's not.
Speaker 2:that's not where I'm at right now, right.
Speaker 1:And that was a different context and that was a different time, and maybe you're even like.
Speaker 2:I don't even know how I did that back then, but this is where I am right now it's a different day and this is where I'm at and I'm not able to do what perhaps I did last week and that's the next day might your functioning might be different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or the mask that we put on. Right, that's another element to it you might've seen something one day, but that might not even been true even in the first place, exactly Because actually this brings up sort of another interesting topic is the shame around miscarriage and the a lot of I mean, I think, until someone has experienced it yeah they might not know that that person is experiencing any shame at all right, but that makes them hide how they're feeling about.
Speaker 1:They might not have told a lot of people. And then you're in this room celebrating this thing. Everybody's looking to you to be responding in a very specific why aren't you excited? Right, and all of that, and you've got. You're just trying really hard not to.
Speaker 2:Yeah you're thinking about your laws. Yeah, yeah, that's hard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's something that I mean it's getting, it's getting better in a in a lot of ways in some ways it is. I find that there's more.
Speaker 2:There's more acknowledgement, there's more conversations around it. I've I've seen people posting about their losses and miscarriages more often as well too, and, yeah, using that to be part of their healing journey yeah, as well, versus like suffering silently about it, and so, yeah, I think that's a good thing, yeah, in the right direction, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah and I think I think also then it normalizing, because people don't talk about it, they don't actually really recognize the frequency in which it happens and how common it is. How common it is, yeah, and then they realize, oh, I'm not alone, you know, similar to other times that we're talking and, and interestingly, I mean part of what is really beneficial about therapy is how it makes you not feel alone. Because when you're sharing your stories with your therapist and your therapist is like, yeah, that happens all the time, or people like often feel that way or often do that, they're like I'm not alone in this Everyone else seems to be.
Speaker 1:Do you ever have that where people are like, no, but this is everyone else. Everyone else would be fine by now and be like who is this everyone? Can you tell me the stats?
Speaker 2:Who are these people living? Who do you know?
Speaker 1:Who do you know who has said, and you know this to be true, because what we know is when people share stuff with them. And I'll say you know who in your life knows that that experience, knows that you feel that way? Knows it's not a soul, hardly anybody.
Speaker 1:Including like crippling anxiety. Hardly anybody. They're like nope, nobody knows, I keep it in, never talk about it, it's not a thing, I hide it really well. So we know now because of what we do for a living like you, really just don't know what's going on with other people.
Speaker 2:I know and I get that sometimes when I'm in session I what's going on with other people. I know, and I get that sometimes when I'm in session. I'm like, oh, I wish you knew my other client because they're feeling the same way that you're feeling.
Speaker 2:But it's like that's a beauty of community, right, where it's like you recognize that your experiences are not individualized. You recognize that others get it in ways that you know you would have never imagined. Yeah, but I think there's power in being able to talk about the things that we often stigmatize and don't talk about, instead of just again back to the suffering, silently about things too, right.
Speaker 1:And it's funny because of what we do for a living too I go what's this family dynamic Right, Like what's going on here that the family is all siding with the other sister. There's a lack of empathy here.
Speaker 2:There's more to this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a lack of empathy here. There's more to this. Yeah, very much a lot. When I hear these scenarios I'm kind of like well, what, why, what, why is there? Why is nobody feeling that you know giving that empathy?
Speaker 2:to her. It's not like the first time that something like this has happened. We're dramatic. Exactly. There's uh, there's sides that we're picking yeah, but no boundaries are extremely important, and so I think definitely allowing um the poster to recognize that like there's gonna be different ways that you grieve and let it show up in a way that works and it's important to you, despite the comments and yeah, because I don't think it means that she can't celebrate with her sister right in a different way.
Speaker 1:But, like, going to a baby shower is very public, it's very gushy, it's like just like baby, baby, like it's that. That's the whole topic, that's everything, that's all. You're there for all you're talking about all you're doing, and so being able to like, just to, for example, if, let's say, the poster had said that they like got upset with their sister, um, and you know, you don't have the right to have a baby shower, or do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:Like, I'm not happy for you or you know like try to make the sister feel really bad about the fact that she got pregnant after her and all that. It would be a very, very different conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but the fact that you don't attend her baby shower does not take away from the way that you might be able to show up as an auntie. Yeah, but the fact that you don't attend her baby shower does not take away from the way that you might be able to show up as an auntie, yeah Right. It doesn't take away from the way that you'll show up as a sister or whatever the case might be. It's, it's a moment, yeah, and in this moment I'm not able to show up the way that I want to, and so or I would like to, because I'm grieving and I'm going through my own experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah's, that's what makes us human.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely yeah, okay, do you want to read the last?
Speaker 2:one. Okay, so the last one that we have am I the jerk for telling my partner that I won't move in with them unless they start therapy? So after three years together, the poster is ready to move in, but has concerns about their partner's chronic anger issues and emotional unavailability. They gently suggested therapy therapy as a condition for next steps, but the partner reacted defensively, accusing them of being manipulative. Oh my, I always find it so funny when people say things like whenever therapy is suggested, how people get defensive about it, as if like therapy is like a punishment Right, or as if it's said in like a shameful kind of way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like, oh, you need therapy. That shows the stigma. That's still there. It shows the stigma.
Speaker 2:And that's why, like I've been on this thing recently, where I want, like I'm realizing more and more that therapy is, therapy is like it's a luxury.
Speaker 1:Right Therapy is something that you deserve.
Speaker 2:It's not something that is a punishment. You deserve to be in a space where your emotions are being you're being able to talk freely about your emotions.
Speaker 1:You're able to process your emotions without judgment.
Speaker 2:You deserve to be in a space where you are working towards healing. You deserve to be in a space where you can now receive information and insight in ways that you perhaps would not have been before. You deserve to be in a space where you don't have to circle around your thoughts and ruminate on your thoughts without any direction, as to like is this a helpful, adaptive thought or is this maladaptive? Like, you deserve to have somebody who can hold that space for you. Like therapy is a privilege, and so I think part of this reaction is more so around like how is this partner interpreting that response? Right? How are they interpreting it? Versus.
Speaker 2:Like, if I said you deserve to go get a massage, would you be? Like how dare you? Did you? Like sign me up, when's my first appointment? But same idea, yeah. Like same idea, yeah, and I feel like we need to make that shift. But until we're able to talk freely, just like we did, about the grief and about therapy and the benefits of that, we're going to constantly be in a place where it's seen as it's stigmatized, it's seen and said and used in a shameful way, versus it being used like therapy.
Speaker 1:You need therapy. What is like no?
Speaker 2:you need, you deserve therapy.
Speaker 1:Yes, you deserve it, yeah and everyone and I think this goes back to conversations we've had before too, about how this misconception of who therapy is for- because, it's not for the mentally ill, no, it's for literally everyone, especially. I want to say, especially now yeah.
Speaker 1:If we think about the world pandemic that happened. So we all went through a very traumatic experience and so in a lot of ways we have this shared trauma that we went through. And then, if you add on kind of media and what's going on globally, like we can all benefit from therapy just because of what's going on globally. You could have a great upbringing, you could have a great marriage, you could have like great insight and emotional like stability and all that kind of stuff and you could still benefit from having those conversations and going into therapy and being able to help process everything that's going on around you all the time.
Speaker 2:There's no one who can't benefit from therapy. No, like there's nobody. And I think of like, even like the athletic world, like there's no high performing athlete who's made it to where they have made it without a coach. And the same is true with us as humans.
Speaker 2:Like that guidance, that support, the insight, like that's what helps us to really tap into the parts of us that we would otherwise not even know exists or even be able to access Our blind spots, our blind spots, you know, and it's like sometimes we just need to we're to have a friend who's like, yeah, my therapist, I can just call her coach because it's easier for me. I'm like, sure, do your thing, girl. So I can just call her coach because it's easier for me. I'm like, sure, do your thing, girl. But that's what it is right we just need. Sometimes we need that insight that an athlete would get from their coach, and that's sometimes what the therapist gives us.
Speaker 1:Like the 360.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Like those 360, get that sort of feedback, get that insight, because you know, I think insight is challenging In this scenario. Back to the. I don't want to presume they don't seem to realize they have anger issues Right and that they have emotional volatility, and that might be where some of the defensiveness is sort of coming from, Like I don't have a problem with this and it's like no, but you do, at least I feel like you do, at least I feel like you do. And even just to go straight to that's manipulative to say you don't want to move in with me because my emotions are not in control and my anger is not in control, and you're manipulative to ask me to get that into control before you want to move in together.
Speaker 1:Make it make sense who's manipulating who? Yeah, that's something we have to do a lot right. And and it's sort of reflect back to people you know, because usually if that's a client coming in, they're gonna be like was that manipulative? Yeah, they really want to know like did I? Am I the one who's? I wasn't, I didn't. That's not what. That was not my intention right, please let me know.
Speaker 2:yeah, that's the blind spot, right? Am I seeing something? Is there something that I'm not seeing? Yeah, again, recognize like that's not being able and wanting your partner to grow with you and to gain that emotional intelligence alongside with you does not make you manipulative. No, in any way.
Speaker 1:No Now, but it's interesting too, one of the things like we can't know this from this scenario and the information that we have. But sometimes we also know and when anybody's kind of posting anything online, they're giving that one side of the story. Like I just very gently suggested I was, so innocent. But there are ways you could actually deliver that in a way that would actually push it For sure.
Speaker 1:Somebody's defenses as well and again, we don't know about this poster specifically, but more in that general sense of like you could be someone who came out and you thought about it in advance and you planned it out and you did the like crap sandwich, I like to call it where that your anger gets to a point that I that really scares me or really makes me nervous, and you know, if we're going to live together which I really want to do if we're going to live together, are you open to potentially looking at that, just so that you can feel and we can both feel confident that, like when things get overwhelming, maybe that anger doesn't?
Speaker 2:hit that nine or 10 out of 10. It makes us better yeah.
Speaker 1:And so there's a way to sort of deliver that where it's kind of like I really care about you, I really care about this relationship, I really want to see it move forward. I just have this little concern here Can we work on this together? And so I'm trying to think can defense mechanisms still get hit as soon as you say the word therapy? Definitely if they have like a negative view of it. But if it, if it's sort of delivered that way, sometimes it's less likely.
Speaker 2:It's more, you're more open to receiving it. I think, if it's, if it's presented that way versus like, this is for us and it's not punishment in any kind of way, and being able to recognize that like yeah, for you to be able to access that, like that's a good thing and a helpful thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:One that you deserve.
Speaker 1:And something therapy can definitely help with. That's the other thing, right, Like when I hear that issue I'm like, oh yeah, we, that's in the bag.
Speaker 2:We can do that.
Speaker 1:That's maybe just a couple of sessions we can do of some good communication, learning how to assess where your head's at.
Speaker 1:One of my favorite sort of like assessment tools is sort of like watch yourself on your drive home and every time someone does something not enjoyable on the drive home, are you internally like losing it? Are you like road raging and that type of stuff? Because that'll give you a sense of where your emotional thermometer is at, and so you're not walking into the house thinking like I, perfectly fine, and then somebody does something at home, like a child, a partner, whatever does something and you're losing. You're losing it because you don't realize the awareness is in there. Yeah, yeah, what a one out of ten feels like, what a two. That's one of the things we map out, right. What does a one feel like? What does a two feel like? What does a three feel like and that's important the telltale signs along the way right, like, like, before I got to the red.
Speaker 2:I was in the yellow and then I was in the orange, and so what was that yellow looking like for?
Speaker 1:you? What does it sound like in here? What are you doing?
Speaker 2:Right, what's all happening? So no, you are not the a-hole. You are just setting clear boundaries and you want to be able to grow well with your partner, and that is a okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and maybe you have to check how you delivered it. We're not sure.
Speaker 2:Right, Good stuff. Well, that was fun yeah that was fun and I like the idea of being able to look at scenarios, and so if you are out there and you have a scenario that you want us to talk about and to give our feedback on, please, please, please, send it our way. We would love to be able to shed some light on it and answer some questions about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, these are probably my favorite episodes, so definitely please send them in. We want to answer. We do want to make sure that we're talking to the people that want to, that want to listen to this. Right, we want to. We want to make sure we're answering their questions, but don't give too much detail, and if you do, we will probably edit out a lot of the detail, because we want to make sure nobody listens talking about me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you can submit it, um, and it'll be anonymous and you'll see the email address to submit any questions to in the show notes as well, and we look forward to chatting about those in our next episode.
