The MindSpa Podcast
The MindSpa Podcast is your go-to space for meaningful conversations around mental health, healing, and personal growth. Hosted by Michelle Massunken RSW and Tina Wilston RP, co-founders of MindSpa Mental Health Centre, each episode explores key mental health topics through expert interviews and thoughtful roundtable discussions.
From managing stress and building stronger relationships to navigating invisible challenges, the MindSpa Podcast offers grounded, professional insights in a warm and accessible way. Tune in weekly for supportive, real-world conversations to help you feel seen, supported, and empowered on your wellness journey.
The MindSpa Podcast
Ep 9 Understanding ADHD
The world of ADHD is far more complex than the stereotypical image of a distracted child bouncing off classroom walls. As therapist Alana George eloquently explains, ADHD is a genetic neurobiological condition with a specific "neural phenotype" - like a fingerprint in the brain with distinct activation patterns and neurotransmitter expressions.
Perhaps the most illuminating metaphor Alana offers is that "ADHD is like driving a Ferrari with bicycle brakes." This perfectly captures the paradox experienced by those with ADHD: exceptional processing power and creativity paired with challenges in stopping, starting, and transitioning between tasks. This imbalance explains both the gift of hyperfocus and the struggle with everyday responsibilities.
While commonly diagnosed in childhood, adult ADHD often goes unrecognized as people develop sophisticated coping mechanisms. Women in particular frequently discover their ADHD only after their children receive diagnoses, highlighting both the genetic component and the historical bias toward male presentation patterns in diagnostic criteria.
Treatment approaches must be multifaceted, combining medication, therapy, physical activity, and strategic environmental adjustments. Traditional accommodations like extended deadlines may actually worsen problems rather than solve them. Instead, people with ADHD typically benefit from more structure rather than less - regular check-ins, clear expectations, "body doubling" (working alongside someone), and breaking tasks into manageable components.
For relationships impacted by ADHD, understanding transforms frustration into compassion. When a partner recognizes that forgotten tasks or emotional dysregulation aren't personal slights but manifestations of a neurological condition, the relationship dynamic shifts dramatically. Self-care emerges as essential medicine, not optional luxury, for effective ADHD management.
Ready to better understand ADHD in yourself or someone you care about? Listen to our full conversation with Alana and discover practical strategies for turning challenges into strengths.
So welcome back to another episode of the MindSpa Podcast, where we explore mental wellness and everything in between. Today we're diving into a topic that affects millions but is still so misunderstood ADHD and we're thrilled to welcome a truly dynamic guest to guide us through it all Alana George. Alana is a therapist here in training at the Mindswell Mental Health Center, currently completing her master's in counseling and psychotherapy. She brings a deeply empathetic, body-informed approach to therapy, combining her academic background in psychology from the University of Ottawa with over a decade of real-world experience in wellness, movement and coaching. Before stepping into the therapy room, alana spent years as a personal trainer, yoga instructor and aquatic therapy practitioner, also served as a program manager at Dover Court Recreation Center. She even taught psychology at Algonquin College, where students praised her as both inspiring and approachable.
Speaker 1:At MindSpot, she now provides supportive counseling to adults navigating stress, life transition, grief, self-esteem issues all under supervision. She works out of our Ottawa offices in Canada and Gloucester and also sees clients virtually. What makes Alana's approach unique is how she integrates neuroscience, psychology and embodied practices to help clients better understand and manage their inner world. When it comes to ADHD, especially in adults, her insight is both compassionate and practical. So whether you're wondering if distractions are more than just forgetfulness or you support someone who lives with ADHD. You'll want to stay tuned for this one. Alana, welcome to the Mindswell podcast.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me, Michelle and Tina. I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 1:We're excited to have you here and talk all things ADHD and understanding. I feel like it's one of those things that we hear a lot about in social media. People are identifying with it. Oh, it's my ADHD. There's a lot of conversations being had about ADHD, and so before we delve into this conversation, let's start by understanding what it even is. So can you help us define what is ADHD and how is it different from like I'm just disorganized or I just get really distracted easily, Like what is the difference? How do I know what is what?
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question. So ADHD encompasses a few different spheres. It is a medical condition with a highly genetic component, so it is something that we are going to see, that is often found in families, but also that genetic component means it's not something that we grow out of.
Speaker 2:So, it's not a childhood condition only that we grow out of in our late teens and 20s. Adhd has some cognitive and behavioral components. These are the ones I think people are most commonly aware of in the media. So these will be things when they talk about that squirrel energy or those some of those impulsivity things. We may be talking about some of the emotional, cognitive and behavioral components of ADHD, but those are really resultant from some of the structural and neurophysiological elements of ADHD.
Speaker 2:So we do know that ADHD has a very specific neural phenotype and what I mean by that is it's the same way that we have a fingerprint on our hands. We have a particular expression in our brain, so certain areas might light up when we're asked particular questions. We have a particular expression in our brain, so certain areas might light up when we're asked particular questions. We may find that certain structures in the brain are a little bit larger or a little bit smaller, depending on what sort of mental health condition people are dealing with. And we know that with ADHD we do tend to see a little more activation in the rear areas of the brain and a little more challenge in some of the activation in the frontal areas. We also know that there are some neurotransmitter unique expressions in ADHD, so dopamine and norepinephrine tend to be expressed a little bit differently in a brain with ADHD than a brain that doesn't have it.
Speaker 1:So it's genetic, there's behavioral components to it and it looks different for everybody.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think that's a good interpretation of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, I like that.
Speaker 3:And what are the most common misconceptions do you think is out there, particularly, I don't know, in adults, but I'm kind of curious actually, maybe with either population, what's the biggest misconception?
Speaker 2:Well, I think the largest misconception is that it is something that the individual can willpower over.
Speaker 2:So the idea that you know if you just tried harder to focus or if you just paid more attention to this, and that even now, with a culture that's becoming a little less stigmatizing around issues like ADHD, is still very prevalent. And it can be very frustrating when you do have a partner or a child with ADHD and you're not understanding why something is so difficult. One of the best explanations I've heard is that ADHD is like driving a Ferrari with bicycle brakes right, so you have a brain that is capable of incredible high performance, but some of those stopping and starting protocols are not as well developed in that brain, and so if you're looking at something like, say, for example, you know household chores during a 24 hour period, you know we might say, well, I've asked this person five times to do this. Why haven't they done this already?
Speaker 2:But when we are dealing with something that affects our attention, before we can incorporate something into the understanding that, oh, I have a job to do or I have a task to do, we have to first be able to hear and receive that that instruction is being given and we have to be able to remember it, and these are kind of what we do see in a brain with ADHD, there is some impact on short term or working memory. So not the long term stuff, but the stuff where you know okay, I need to go to the store and buy eggs, cheese and milk, and then you come out with you know, okay, I need to go to the store and buy eggs, cheese and milk, and then you come out with you know tissue papers and bacon.
Speaker 1:Right, amazing. So that's, that's essentially how it looks in adulthood, right, like just in terms of the memory piece. What does it look like when it comes to childhood, or how does it, I guess? How is it different, cause it's often taught off as a childhood disorder. But how does adulthood ADHD look different than a childhood ADHD?
Speaker 2:Great question, michelle. In childhood ADHD, when a lot of diagnoses are made, often the initial call to action for diagnosis might occur in a classroom setting. So it might be very comparative, right, where a child may have managed, at least, the family system may not have noticed there was something. But when there was, school is introduced and the demands start to change. Now it's we need to do this activity and we need to do it for an extended period of time or we need to have this thing done in a particular way. That can really be where the some of the displays start to come forward.
Speaker 2:With adults it's a little more challenging because adults have usually developed some pretty significant coping mechanisms. So by the time you're looking at a 40-year-old woman that might be diagnosed with ADHD, they've already learned how to mask, they've already learned coping strategies to get them through the workday, to get them through education. So it's sometimes actually a little harder to tell in adults and even with some of the clients that I've seen here at MindSpa, I've had clients that have said if I had been a kid I would have been diagnosed with this. But now that I'm 40, now that I'm 50, I've learned how to manage these things.
Speaker 2:So, taking in mind that it is a genetic medical condition, it is not something we grow out of. The baseline mechanisms are still the same. We're still struggling with inattentivity, we're still struggling with overwhelm, emotional regulation, but adults often have better strategies for how to deal with that.
Speaker 3:I'm curious because there's a lot of people out there that are undiagnosed right now and what I've seen a lot is they'll end up getting their diagnosis because their child gets diagnosed with it and then they realize it is genetic. And I do have these things, even though I'm asking for them, and I think that I think it would be important to change some of the questions when we are talking to adults, and especially adult women, because we all know that the diagnosis is based on male presentation of ADHD and not female presentation of ADHD. But I've always thought even one of the questions do you make a lot of silly mistakes or simple mistakes? And it's so important not to have the follow-up question they say, nope, I don't. Okay, follow-up question what do you do to not make silly mistakes?
Speaker 3:Oh, I quadruple check my work. You know what I mean, and it's like, okay, well, so you're not making simple mistakes, but you would if you weren't constantly double, triple, quadruple checking to make sure. And so I think that it would be nice if some of those like deeper questions would sort of come up. But if you're talking to someone who is undiagnosed with ADHD, what would you recommend they sort of pay attention to if they are curious, if they're, if they're wondering, maybe I do have this yeah great question.
Speaker 2:I think, like you said, starting with the genetic link is a real obvious spot Kids getting diagnosed. We know it is a genetic condition If the parent has been struggling with similar symptoms. That is a great starting point. Yeah, there is a movement away from some of the typical diagnostics that are being used. So, for example, the gold standard is, of course, the DSM-5. If you're not familiar with that, that's the Diagnostics and Statistics Manual and the International Classifications for Disease.
Speaker 2:And in Canada this is relevant because it's only a physician or clinical psychologist, someone at the doctor level, that can actually make an official diagnosis. And those assessments can often be very useful in that they're quick and they can often expedite the process for medical interventions, specifically with some of the ADHD medications. But within the field itself, there is a bit of a movement away from some of the categorical. I have this symptom, I don't have this symptom and more into what you're talking about, tina, which is okay, we get that you managed to show up to appointments at time, but like how much mental energy was spent making sure that that happened. Reminders yeah.
Speaker 2:Right For me three to be here today. So this is where we might be looking at some of the newer styles of assessments, where these are assessments that don't necessarily go into do you have ADHD or do you not have ADHD, but what does executive function look like for you? And so this is moving into something which we call the research and domain criteria, which is looking at how we assess mental health and mental wellness in terms of specific functionality in certain symptoms, versus a more black and white style of you have this or you don't have this. So this is where we might be asking those follow-up questions of okay, you know, you managed to complete all of your work on time. What's what? What's the other side of that? Does that come at the loss of sleep? Does this come at the loss of hyper-focus? Does this come with a great deal of procrastination? So we'd really be looking at kind of those individual symptoms.
Speaker 3:I love that. I love that because one of the things that we've been talking a lot about, or just as a profession we're always talking about, is that role of social media and telling people you have you have ASD if this, this and this, or you have ADHD if this, this and this, and they are very symptom-based and we, what we know from the diagnostic manual, is, if you just went based on that, we all have something diagnosable, but it is the functionality piece.
Speaker 3:That actually is the big difference, and I think if all social media said you could have this, but if you can still function in this way and this way, you probably don't have anything diagnosable. It's just normal that within humans, for example, I think of some people I know where they like they need to chew equally on either side of their mouth. Do they have OCD? No, it doesn't impact. If they can't chew like they have a sore tooth, they're not not eating. You know, they're still going to eat. They'll be all right, they can, they can move past it, and so I feel like that would be a great piece of the conversation is understanding that functionality is key.
Speaker 1:So, with that being said, then, what are some of the impacts on function when you think about some of the lived experience of ADHD? I know you touched on like sleep. You touched on perfectionism a little bit. What are some of the internal struggles that somebody with ADHD might see when it comes to their functioning, whether it's like self-talk or performance like what do you typically see?
Speaker 2:For sure? Great question. So I think, if we go back to that analogy of the ADHD is like a race car with bicycle brakes. When we think about, you know, a Ferrari or high-end sports car, there's a lot of energy, right, there's high performance, but there's also a lot of energy that's being used, and we know that if there's more energy being used it doesn't last as long. So one of the things that's often overlooked in ADHD is that there's sometimes a crash period towards the end of the day, sometimes a sundowning, and so we'll sometimes find that performance is really good within a particular window. Maybe it's like late morning to early afternoon, but if we start going outside of that window it can be very challenging.
Speaker 2:Often when we're looking at ADHD in adults, particularly if it hasn't been diagnosed before, we're often coming at it through a concurrent mental health diagnosis. So depression, anxiety, trauma, eating disorders, substance use disorders all very common comorbid conditions that occur with ADHD and sometimes resultant from not having that earlier diagnostic as well. So sometimes we may be treating for something like depression or like anxiety and we might start seeing some of these mentions of. You know, I have a really hard time focusing on this, or, you know, I just couldn't control my temper in this situation, and so in session, what I'd be looking for are some of those little clues With clients.
Speaker 2:Sometimes, what I'll do is I'll bring up a list of about the 35 most common symptoms and I'll actually ask them about them with those follow-up questions to say you know, over the last couple of weeks I've heard you say that you've struggled with getting a particular job done or initiating a certain task, or you felt very overwhelmed or it's been very difficult to regulate in this particular situation, and then I might actually offer them some of those different symptoms to see if they identify with them.
Speaker 2:And that can sometimes be a starting point for, okay, maybe this is where we need to go with this. We do know that there is a strong link between ADHD and sleep deprivation, and we know that this is sometimes exacerbated by some of the medications as well, especially if we are using stimulant-based medications. So, however it comes about, one of the things that is really key when we are looking at ADHD is promoting regularity, so daily routines, same wake times, bedtimes, as best we can stable blood sugar, making sure we're hydrated throughout the day, and regular physical activity as well. Adhd is really a type of condition where self-care is an essential part of the treatment and management.
Speaker 3:Well, you were talking about energy and I'm kind of curious because when I think of energy, I think of mental energy and then I think of physical energy. And I'm just wondering if your experience of it, or what you know about it, if you've noticed that there's a big difference, where it's like oh, I was working all day and using my brain, so at this certain time of day my brain energy is gone, but actually my physical energy is still there, because I was actually doing that very sedentary.
Speaker 3:Because, that hyperactivity piece is this piece that is, I feel like, separate from all the other stuff.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm so glad you brought that up because when we talk about ADHD attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, the hyperactivity does not only refer to somatic or physical hyperactivity, it is mental hyperactivity as well. So we know that there's a few different manifestations in ADHD. There is the inattentive type, which may have more trouble taking in new information, more challenges with that short-term memory, but there also is the more predominantly hyperactive type as well. And interesting, you know I heard you mention earlier, tina, that a lot of the original work on ADHD in the 80s was done on, you know, groups of white boys in classrooms sort of being identified by their inability to act like their peers, and this regrettably led to a lot of girls and women not being diagnosed because their hyperactivity did predominantly show as internal, so where they might be still on the outside, the mind was just spinning a million miles a minute, and so they're not being disruptive, so then it doesn't get flagged Exactly right.
Speaker 2:So there's this huge social component into how we treat people with ADHD, and particularly children with ADHD, as well. So I think, in terms of your question, you know whether it's a mental fatigue or a physical fatigue. Well, what we actually know is that the physical fatigue is tolerated better than the mental fatigue. The mental fatigue is actually going to be one of the things that leads to higher rates of emotional dysregulation, disruption, crash outs. We actually know that strong physical fatigue is one of the best symptom management tools for people with ADHD.
Speaker 2:So earlier when I said self-care is really not optional for people with ADHD, that includes regular and intense physical activity. The research that that's coming out has said it's not just the physical activity in terms of like doing intense exercise very important, though definitely part of symptom management but just even the ability to move around during tasks. So, for example, in our treatment room for our group ADHD programs we have rolling chairs right, people can spin, we have toys on the table, people have opportunities to use their hands to fidget, to move around, and with someone with ADHD, being able to express those movements often leads to not necessarily better symptom management but less triggers for deregulation than if they had to stay still, because if they have to stay still, the focus is no longer on the task, it's on staying still itself. Right.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's a good one. I was thinking of the scenario that you used in group, in terms of how the reward looks different as well for folks with. Adhd and how their definition of that looks different. Maybe you could talk on that a little bit.
Speaker 2:Oh for sure, yeah, their definition. That looks different. Maybe you could talk on that a little bit. Oh for sure, yeah. So when we're talking about a reward or a reinforcer, we're talking about something that's going to continue a particular behavior, and often what's reinforcing to an ADHD brain might look different than something that isn't, to a brain that isn't so. Michelle, I know you've heard me mention this study before, tina. If you haven't.
Speaker 2:There was this great study that was done looking at rewards and people with ADHD versus people who didn't. It was done at a university and what they did is they would take people into a room and they had to do a test. The test was arbitrary, you know. It was just a couple questions. The real experiment was how long the person would stay in the room after the test was completed. So what the participants were offered was a certain amount of money. So if they stay, if they just completed the test, I think you know they got $10. If they stayed 20 minutes later, they got $20. If they stayed an entire hour in the room, they would get $50.
Speaker 2:And, without fail, every person with ADHD finished the test, took the lowest amount of money and left the room, and I remember telling this to a client of mine with ADHD and him saying well, if I've got an hour, think of all the things I can do with it. I could make more than $50. I could do all of these things. So that frustration threshold is a real key predictor in what might be reinforcing. Asking someone with ADHD to stay still or be quiet or be in a room can often be a really demotivating experience, which is why some of the traditional techniques we've seen historically in school systems like, for example, isolating someone with ADHD or, for example, in a workplace, putting that person in a quiet office often actually work against that symptom management that's so interesting, and so, with that around the pieces of symptom management, what has been seen to be the most effective or evidence-based when it comes to managing ADHD symptoms?
Speaker 2:Well, it's a multifaceted approach. So we do know that medication is quite effective. We know that CBT is quite effective.
Speaker 3:Can you define it for everybody what CBT is? Oh for sure, great, yeah, effective. Can you define it for everybody what CBT?
Speaker 2:is, oh for sure, great yeah. So for CBT. Cbt is cognitive behavioral therapy and this addresses the cognitive behavioral symptoms of ADHD. So these might be strategies for keeping the brain on task and making sure that our behaviors can follow through. So, for example, we talked earlier about the timers. Right, you know timers visual reminders are very common strategy. There are a few specific ADHD techniques. One's called the Pomodoro technique, which is basically breaking things into two little work on work off periods. So I think the official technique is 25 minutes of work covered by five minutes of of rest or recovery.
Speaker 2:But for an ADHD brain we might do some variations of that because transitions is often yeah well, transitions require a huge amount of executive function to switch from one task to another task. One of the analogies that's used with ADHD is it's like having like 50 browsers in your brain open. So if you have 50 browsers open and then you're like, oh, just let me find that thing, wait, this isn't it, wait, this isn't it, wait, this isn't it, and then not only are you not finding what you want, but now you're getting frustrated because you're going through all these things not finding what you want. And then there may be this additional pressure of you know, a social component where someone is requiring you to find that specific browser. So all of these things can kind of add up together into some of the challenges in recalling information and having it available to you when you need it.
Speaker 3:Right, you were saying something before that made me think about that energy piece and how there's that finite amount of energy and at the end you might not have it. And then I thought about that and the relationship with emotional regulation.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:We know that there is in children in particular. It's really noticeable that very often somebody with that diagnosis is also experiencing trouble with emotional regulation. So I was kind of wondering what your thoughts are on that. Oh for, sure?
Speaker 2:Well, I have a lot of pithy quotes and one of them is that we don't learn calculus while running on a treadmill and so when we're asking someone to emotionally regulate, without realizing that they may be, you know, already spending 120% of their capacity regulating just to stand in front of you and have that conversation. So definitely some changes in expectations. This is where, again, some of those self-care and routines become really important. If we can remove some of the variables, like sleep disruptions, like low blood sugar, like inactivity, like dehydration, those definitely improve the ability to stay regulated. But there's also some specific things for someone you know actively treating their ADHD that may be worthwhile considering. So, for example, you know, end of the day, when the meds are wearing off, right this, this might not be the best time to have really complex or difficult conversations with family members or loved ones and in the household.
Speaker 3:You can imagine that is when they're happening, right? It's, we're trying to yeah, we're trying, it's. It's after dinner, we have time to sort of sort out the issues that are going on and they're not in their best space to do that.
Speaker 2:And so I think that is part of what needs to be considered. When we are, you know, living with someone with ADHD or just working and managing our own ADHD, is that not all 24 hours in the day are equal. Right, we are working when the energy is there and the capacity is there, but that Ferrari is burning fuel a lot faster, right, so it's going to run out of gas a lot quicker.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, good. So what kind of supports do you think? I don't know. My question is you have to edit that part out.
Speaker 3:Do you need to switch pages?
Speaker 1:Okay, that's a good one. Yeah, so what's the question? Like, when your battery's wearing out, when the battery's in the mind, it's just you're in a one, yeah, so what's the question?
Speaker 2:Like when your battery's wearing out. When the battery's at the bottom, it's just you know, they're in a blur. They can't.
Speaker 1:What strategy is to fix?
Speaker 2:the effects.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, great, so ask that question. Yes, sir, on it, sir.
Speaker 3:That's why we have a producer.
Speaker 1:I love how you talked about being able to recognize that not all 24 hours are the same, and so when it comes to the latter part of an individual's day with ADHD, where the battery is running low but things still need to get done, what are the options? What does that look like in terms of managing the tasks that need to get done but also being aware of where I'm at mentally?
Speaker 2:and emotionally. Well, I think the self-awareness comes first. Knowing that your battery is draining and that this might not be the key time brings a lot of preventative strategies into play. So this might look like saying I'd love to talk to you about this. Could we set some time up for this Saturday morning?
Speaker 2:Definitely, utilizing social supports can really help. So, for example, if someone with ADHD, say, had to work late until six or seven, they're coming home, the meds are wearing off, maybe they've been in traffic, which can be a very frustrating thing. You know, if there's someone in the household who could do some of the things like maybe it's welcoming the children home from school or getting dinner ready, if you can divide and conquer those things can be really helpful. Body doubling is a strategy that's often very effective for getting household tasks done in the evening. So this might be instead of dividing and conquering chores. You and your spouse, you know, might not say anything. You might put on a record that you enjoy and you just tackle the dishes together and this can apply with kids too, then For sure, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Maintaining the routine, clear expectations, understanding that the capacity to be psychologically flexible and adaptive is often compromised at that time. So we want to set your expectations.
Speaker 1:Exactly Right.
Speaker 2:We want to have realistic expectations about that as well, and then also allowing that time for some more restorative activities and for someone with ADHD that might be a more repetitious activity Maybe it's, you know, playing a game on their phone that they like or reading a book but giving them some time to actually have a few hours of self-focused kind of self-stimulating exercises that allow them to transition into the end of the day.
Speaker 3:What are your thoughts? Sorry, this is off script, but what are your thoughts about homework for kids after those school hours and the battle that can sometimes ensue between parents and kids?
Speaker 2:Wow, what a great question that touches on so many different things. If we are talking about my personal opinion, okay.
Speaker 1:Let's hear it.
Speaker 2:There we go. I want to hear it. I mean, learning occurs in all sorts of different ways and, while there are certainly essential skills that we want to master academically, when our children have to spend two, three hours per night which also means we are now spending two, three hours- per night, because we've got a body double with them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know that can be. You know whether a child has ADHD or doesn't have ADHD. That can be inherently problematic and possibly symptomatic of some other things that may not be happening during the day. For someone with ADHD, I would think that it is particularly challenging when we know that we have a finite window where the performance will be higher or more likely to take things in. It may not have the same uptake or benefit to continue to over-educate in those moments in the evening, particularly if the experience with education has not been enjoyable. To take away some of those alternative learning opportunities, like recreation activities in the evening, sports activities with family, playing strategy games with family. All of those have incredible utility for self-care and emotional regulation. So while I think academics are obviously incredibly important, there's a lot of aspects of learning and if we are going from eight hours in school to another two, three hours in the homestead, I suspect there may be some challenges with that that need to be addressed beyond just the individual.
Speaker 1:And that kind of goes back to the piece around like self-care, right Even for the kids, like just teaching them the importance of self-care at an early age, whether it's like hey, today you have soccer and that's part of your self-care, that's part of being able to manage your symptoms. But also it's important to have that physical activity in place.
Speaker 2:I think there's ways that that could be taught at an early age, especially if you're noticing symptoms in place. But teaching that early. Yeah, team sports with physical activity I think are incredible tools to integrate for children with adhd. Um, you avoid a lot of the social isolation that often occurs in some of the other, like an academic context. Um, there is a lot of learning that comes, you know, as children and adults, simply from being around other people and then having that gets missed out in the classroom setting?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 2:It's not the same learning that happens Often. A lot of children who were able to mask or perform in high school, when things were a little more structured with mom and dad, will go to university and that's really when it will hit them. When they've now, all of these things they were doing as a group, as a team, are now being done in isolation.
Speaker 1:I think we're seeing that too, where, like last, senior high schoolers are wanting to get their psych eds done in time for university, just so that they can have those, whether it's accommodations in place, but recognizing that it's going to be different Learning is going to look different Structure is going to look different, and so being able to now look at this and say, okay, well, how do I identify this or label this?
Speaker 2:Because I know that there's something there, but we're seeing more of that late diagnosis, checklist, mini meetings, check-ins really utilizing the strength of social supports and teams can be very effective strategies for managing ADHD throughout the entire lifespan. It is really when the client is sent off alone to deal with their symptoms and isol that it can become really overwhelming. So this is where you know my spouse and I body double and that's how we get the dishes done. Or you know Timmy and Sally go to yoga practice together on Tuesday nights and that's how they learn. You know breath work and emotional regulation strategies. Like when we can really utilize the inclusivity, we start to see much better symptom management.
Speaker 3:I have a question for you, because one of the most common accommodations when you said the IEP, which is, you know, the to allow for those accommodations one of those common ones that I see is extra time and with my work with many clients over the years with ADHD, that has pros and cons to it. Yeah, more time because of those resources Everything is so resource heavy for them. Giving them extra time, I think is very important in a lot of ways.
Speaker 3:Flip side to this, what I'm ending up seeing when they give that you now don't have a deadline except for the end of the semester let's say and every class says that Now I have four or five classes and because that time constraint helps my brain get into like Ferrari mode right Now, when I don't have that time constraint anymore, I leave it to a point and then I get overwhelmed with the amount of stuff I need to do the shame for procrastinating and all that. So what are your thoughts on how we like give that extra time, but also don't let it pile up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love so much that you brought that up. A deadline is not a symptom management strategy. Okay, and so I think you've really touched on the idea of when we think we're giving accommodations by moving back deadlines. What we're actually doing is we're moving back support right, we're pulling back support.
Speaker 2:A person with ADHD might not need an extension on the deadline. They might need more check-ins along the way to the original deadline. So an example I like to use with a client I'm currently working with is the amount of no reply emails that are coming in. So you know he's in a position where he is getting, you know, maybe you know 50 to 120 no reply emails a day, and each one of those emails requires a little bit of mental energy for him to click in and decide if this is important or this isn't important. He doesn't need an extended deadline. What he has asked for is to have all of this superfluous extra information condensed so that he can attune his attention to what's needed. So when we're looking at accommodations, you know, just pushing back a deadline but not changing anything else really isn't helping things. It can even hurt things. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely, that would have the opposite effect if anything?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. So you know there's this idea that accommodations might look like less structure, but really accommodations look like different structure. It's more support, it is condensing and streamlining all of the different channels from which energy is coming in. So examples in the workplace you know personally that I struggle with is when we have multiple communication channels so, for example, an email, a reporting system, a chat bot, a Google share place, and then trying to figure out which, which of these is the priority. I know that I can't pay attention to all five at once, so which one is the priority? So I think, when we're looking at accommodations, I mean obviously it is unique to the individual, but effective accommodations for symptom management are ones that help the person improve performance, not simply push back a deadline.
Speaker 1:Because that gets into the perfectionism versus procrastination dance that we can find ourselves in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is a real dance, michelle. What a great term. And perfectionism can be paralyzing. And perfectionism can be paralyzing when someone with ADHD is in a position where they have to create a deliverable. There can often be this internal belief of, well, I've done so poorly in these other things. I have to make sure this thing is so great, right, and then the pressure of that can really lead to a lot of challenges getting in. So, when we were talking about accommodations just a moment ago, and in perfectionism and some of the procrastination, what this might look like is maybe we have little check-in points along the way, so maybe, and and they might be scaled back, you know, to the point where it might even seem silly, but it might be like check-in point one open your laptop and turn it on, click on your email and then take a break for five minutes, right, but making sure there is accountability, structure, support and a clear understanding of the steps to move forward can really help a lot.
Speaker 3:That's awesome, very informative. Can you speak to ADHD in relationships Like what you see on how it impacts relationships? Because that's awesome, very informative. Say you know, have they been diagnosed with it? No, if they were, would that change how you feel about what you just described? And a hundred percent of the time they go? Oh yeah, that would make a massive difference Because my expectations would actually change if there was a diagnosis there. So that's just the context that I've seen it sort of show up. Is that frustration from the other partner, particularly if it's not diagnosed. So their expectations are. When I ask you, can you take the garbage out on Thursday? I expect you to take the garbage out on Thursday and not have to constantly remind you or you forget, or I end up having to do it, or whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess with the label it's easier to understand it a bit. Not that it justifies it, but I can understand it because I'm looking at it from possibly an ADHD lens. So this is why you're not doing what you're doing.
Speaker 3:It's not because you're disrespecting me, exactly, yeah.
Speaker 1:Label it's personal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, interesting that you brought that up and great question. Each couple has to figure out their own solution for managing things, but I do think that you've brought up a great point, tina, which is there is a significant impact on relationships. So we know that people with ADHD struggle with emotional regulation sometimes, and highly triggering environments, which sometimes do occur with our romantic partners, are inevitable. So having some coping ahead strategies for those moments for both partners can be really helpful. We do know that ADHD does affect intimacy as well. So when someone is feeling very overwhelmed or they're having trouble, as Tina mentioned, you know, with that transition, right, it might be difficult to transition into an intimate mind spot when the brain is overwhelmed with. You know what time they have to get up in the morning and whether or not the laundry has been done. So one of the strategies that I've been using with some of my clients is to encourage date nights in hotels, right, ah?
Speaker 2:so you can't right, yeah, where we're getting out of the environment so that some of those triggers that might contribute to the overwhelm like the dishes, like the state of the house, like the kids are simply removed and that can sometimes ease some of the hyperactivity and make the person a bit more receptive. What else was I going to say about this? Sometimes incorporating that structure into expectations. So, for example, if we're talking about the dishes at the end of the night, it might be like we have a timeline like I cook, you do the dishes and the dishes are done by 10 o'clock. I'm not going to say anything between 7 pm and 10 pm. I'm just going to trust that this person is going to be there to having them done. So again, support, clear expectations can really be helpful for that.
Speaker 1:I'm still thinking about the date nights in hotels. Can you explain that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, why am I at a hotel? So that you don't have to worry about your dirty laundry or all of the environmental triggers that may be challenging your ability to be present for your partner during intimacy.
Speaker 1:Oh got, it Got it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would have never thought of that. I would have never thought of that of something that would be a barrier to intimacy. At the end of the day, is that emotional and mental overwhelm that sort of comes. And you can definitely see how a partner could personalize that, because they're like. I live in the same house with the same dishes and the same stuff, but just changing your environment.
Speaker 1:Is what you're suggesting, like getting out of your environment where the stress can be induced, but in a different space where you have that clarity?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:I'm thinking like what am I Appreciate it. Well, this was a very informative conversation yes, very much thank you I think it was, I think it's one that again there's so many people out there who are either diagnosed with ADHD, have symptoms of ADHD, know somebody? I mean it goes across the spectrum and so this is a much needed conversation. I'm glad that we're able to have it.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm so glad that you had me here today, michelle and Tina, and, for anyone who is listening, we do offer ADHD group therapy and individual therapy here at Mind Spa.
Speaker 3:You can come hang out with me.
Speaker 2:And you know it is. It's there and we find strategies to work with it. We don't underplay it, but we also still live full lives with it.
Speaker 1:I love that. Thank you for having this conversation with us. Well, my pleasure Anytime. Thank you guys for listening and, again, feel free to send us any questions that you have as well. Make a thumbs up at media at the mind spot. We look forward to hearing you in our next conversation.
