The MindSpa Podcast
The MindSpa Podcast is your go-to space for meaningful conversations around mental health, healing, and personal growth. Hosted by Michelle Massunken RSW and Tina Wilston RP, co-founders of MindSpa Mental Health Centre, each episode explores key mental health topics through expert interviews and thoughtful roundtable discussions.
From managing stress and building stronger relationships to navigating invisible challenges, the MindSpa Podcast offers grounded, professional insights in a warm and accessible way. Tune in weekly for supportive, real-world conversations to help you feel seen, supported, and empowered on your wellness journey.
The MindSpa Podcast
Ep 12 Setting Boundaries: Navigating Difficult Family, Workplace, and Personal Situations
Ever found yourself wondering if you're being unreasonable for setting a boundary? You're not alone.
The Mind Spa podcast tackles four fascinating ethical dilemmas that highlight the messy reality of human relationships. We start with a deeply personal scenario about a young woman in recovery for disordered eating who faces resistance when asking her family to avoid weight-loss talk in their group chat. This opens a rich conversation about how parental relationships with food and body image shape their children's perceptions, and how setting boundaries—even when met with resistance—can break harmful generational patterns.
We then explore a jaw-dropping scenario where a therapist expects an invitation to a client's wedding, showcasing the critical importance of professional boundaries in therapeutic relationships. The power dynamics at play when these boundaries blur remind us why ethics exist in helping professions and how awkward it can become when these lines are crossed.
The workplace comes into focus when we debate whether using mental health days for concerts and hangovers constitutes an abuse of company policy. When one employee's choices directly impact their colleagues' workload during panic attacks, should someone speak up? This scenario perfectly illustrates how individual choices affect collective wellbeing and the delicate balance between personal freedom and workplace responsibility.
Finally, we untangle the complex web of a post-breakup situation involving shared pet custody when an ex in rehab requests a visit with their dog. This showcases how easy it is to get stuck in black-and-white thinking when emotions run high, literally redirecting brain energy away from creative problem-solving. The physiological reality of emotional decision-making explains why talking things through—whether in therapy, with friends, or through journaling—helps us see options we might otherwise miss.
Through each scenario, we explore the nuances of setting healthy boundaries while navigating complex relationships. Remember, your mental wellbeing matters, and sometimes setting limits is the most compassionate choice you can make—for yourself and others.
Wondering about your own ethical dilemma? Reach out to us at media@themindspacea to share your story for future episodes!
Hello, hello. Welcome back to another episode of the Mind Spa podcast. We're going to get into some real conversations today and we're going to talk about a couple scenarios, so we're going to do the. Am I the a-hole?
Speaker 2:Yeah, my favorite episodes To do, I mean.
Speaker 1:To do and talk about some real life scenarios that are very common. But yet, as the individual experiencing these situations, we start to question right, is this something that I was in the right to say or to do, or does this make me an a-hole for these things? And so let's get into it? So I will read the first scenario and let's hear the thoughts on this. So the question or the post is I, a 25 year old female, have struggled with disordered eating since I was a teen.
Speaker 1:In my recovery, I'm working on starting to feel at peace with my body. I'm working with a therapist and a nutritionist, but my family, especially my mom and my aunt, constantly talk about diets, weight loss and body image in our family group chat. Recently, my mom sent a message about a new Ozempic-type drug that she's trying and asked if I wanted her to ask the doctor for U2. I was mortified. I was mortified. I privately messaged her and then later posted in the group hey, I'm working on healing my relationship with food and body image. I'd really appreciate it if we could avoid weight talks in this chat. My mom was offended and said that I was shaming her for trying to be healthy. My aunt chimed in and said that I'm being too sensitive and I'm policing people's free speech. Am I the a-hole for setting that boundary in a shared family space?
Speaker 2:I love this. There's so much that we can dive into oh me, oh my what are your thoughts?
Speaker 2:Okay, the first thought I have actually stems to her poor relationship with her body and food and all that stuff.
Speaker 2:To begin with, because what we do know, we know a lot right in our, in our line of work. We know a lot about where that comes from, and we know that there's a huge correlation between a daughter's relationship with food and her body image and all that with her mother's, and I think that I want to say for sure, in my mom's generation, when she was growing up, it was just common practice for the older generation to constantly comment on their daughter's bodies Right, you don't eat, that, you need to lose weight, all that kind of stuff but I would say, in my generation, our moms knew a bit better not to do that. What they didn't know, though, is they didn't know that it'll have the same effect if they just speak poorly about their own bodies. If they're always self-criticizing, always saying I need to lose weight, I need to go on a diet. That actually has a huge negative impact on children's views of their own body, because they view that parent as perfect, as wonderful, as flawless.
Speaker 1:The model that they're trying to emulate. Exactly and if you're not good enough.
Speaker 2:That means I'm not good enough, and so I. It's very interesting just how it's evolved that. I think that over time people have become more aware and they're more careful, but they don't realize there's still this sticky part of like if you don't have a good relationship with your body, then your daughters or sons can be negatively impacted as well.
Speaker 1:I think that's such a valid point, and I think that's where her even being able to now set this boundary becomes that much more important, because her mom probably didn't have the opportunity to do that right. This could be generational on so many levels, and so, with her now being able to set that boundary with her mom, with her aunt, with others involved as well too, is part of what needs to happen to shift that whole, like the generational piece that keeps on happening where there is this body shaming, where there is this expectation when it comes to what this image should look like. Yeah, and I think for her it's, it's being able to step into that, which isn't always an easy thing to do, but I think it's a necessary one on so many levels.
Speaker 2:Yeah well, one of the things that also pops into my head is that I find the conversation around body image actually as a therapist really tricky to navigate for a couple of reasons, and I think that one reason is that there's this sort of societal standard that we've put on that like thin is better and all that. So there's this whole messaging always that like weighing less or being smaller and all that is better, or having less body fat and all that is better. But then there's the actual real life health implications that can come if you are making lifestyle choices, like if you are eating a lot of processed food, excess sugar, we know that there's mood implications to that. If you're being very sedentary and you're not working out and all that kind of stuff, there's mood implications. And then there's body implications. But personally sometimes I'll see a situation and I'll think it would really benefit your depression if you went out for daily walks or you started getting your cardio up, because we know that all the beautiful chemicals that will get released in your brain if you exercise.
Speaker 2:But then I also don't want to shame that person for eating unhealthy foods or um, because they've said they already feel bad that they're eating unhealthy foods. They feel bad that they're not moving their bodies. I'm like I know it'll positively impact your body too, probably if you were to eat differently, but I'm worried about your mental right, like this is just coming from the mental health side. Yeah, so it feels like this thing where I'm like, oh, I want to address it, but I want to address it in a way that it's not actually doubling down on body shaming, making you feel bad about your body. I find it's really hard to kind of like navigate that because it's so sensitive?
Speaker 1:yeah, it's so sensitive, but I think it goes back down to sort of like the why right, what is my motivation behind bringing this up? Right, you can feel better, mood wise, you might be able to sleep better as well too. Whereas if we're targeting the food piece on its own, that can be very tricky and sticky, whereas if we're talking about what are the possible solutions, right, why would this be? And that's where I get in therapy, it comes into play, like, what is the motivation? Right, you want to be able to make healthier choices. What is your why?
Speaker 1:Not because of how your mom feels about her weight or how she's relating to herself, but kind of bringing it down to like an individual level, like why is this important to me? My mom has her own relationship with the weight and she might see herself in one aspect or one way, but her reasons are different than my reasons. Yeah, and how do we separate those two to be able to create sort of that internal motivation of like hey, this is why I'm going to do this, either the workout to the physical component or talking to the doctor, whatever it is, but the reasons are going to be different and I think, when you come down to again the mood impact or even like the sleep impact or other aspects of things, it helps to kind of bring out the why in a different kind of way than what might be discussed in the family group chat. The reasons are going to feel different, even though the outcome might look the same, but the why under it and the motivation that'll keep you going with it.
Speaker 1:It shifts and it's different in those ways too.
Speaker 2:But one of the things like that the the poster sort of also bringing up is mom saying hey, I'm going to try this new thing. Do you want me to ask the doctor for you to? There's so many boundary oversteps in this moment. First of all, if I want that, I will talk to my doctor about it. Why are you even thinking that it's a good idea for you to ask the doctor on my behalf? But second of all this, this whole piece, like you're sending me a very, very distinct message. You're overweight and need to lose weight period. When you ask that question, you might say it was just an innocent question. I just thought I'm trying to be healthy. Maybe you want to be healthy too. Well, that implies that I'm not. It implies that I'm just trying to be healthy. That's a bit of.
Speaker 1:That's unfair for the poster and like time and place. It's like that's. It's one thing to have that conversation come up. If I go, I'm going to talk to the doctor about this. Do you want to talk to them about you too when you're having that one-on-one? But we're bringing this into like a family group chat, like this is not the place. Very embarrassing, yeah, like this. That's where the body shaming comes into play.
Speaker 2:This is not the place for those kinds of conversations to have to be had, because even if you're concerned, like you said, this is coming from a loving place of concern Right there would have been a way to do that. That is not in a group chat, exactly.
Speaker 1:So that's gonna I mean, the way that that message is delivered is going to impact how it's received. Yeah, and so if you're not going to deliver in a way that shows or comes from like a compassionate lens, but more a shaming lens, well, I'm going to receive it that way. Yeah. So I think that, for a number of reasons, like this is inappropriate. Yeah, even if the messaging was appropriate and correct and well intended and all of that good stuff. It's like time and place, time and place and well-intended and all of that good stuff. It's like time and place, time and place.
Speaker 2:And I think I think this layer two of aunt aunt getting involved, because what we we always see. First of all, we see these scenarios all the time in therapy. But even when, if you see them posted online and am I the a-hole post? There's this always common denominator that I don't think I'm being the difficult one here, but my family it's like this. There's this group consensus within the family that I'm being the difficult one here, right? So that's another layer that I find really interesting.
Speaker 2:Where the aunt is chiming and calling her too sensitive. The aunt is chiming in being like why are you making a big deal out of nothing and I think that families do this a lot to other family members where it's like I don't have a problem with it, so you shouldn't have a problem with it, not realizing there's a dynamic there that's maybe very normal for them, but you step outside and I think again, that's why they're asking the public wait outside in your family dynamic. Is this normal? Should I, should I? Was I in the wrong for actually bringing this up as a problem?
Speaker 1:Right, I feel like that happens so often. Right, where it's like the observer might be able to, might have their own perspective of how things are happening, but then there's the person who the situation is happening to, and their, their perception of what's happening is going to be much different than the observer's perception. That doesn't make it insignificant or less important or less impactful, right, just because what you're observing in terms of watching this as a third party or an outsider is different than what I'm experiencing as a person who this is happening to. Yeah, does it make my experience less important or insignificant just because you're not feeling the way that I'm feeling about this? Yeah, you know, our, our realities are different, and that's it, is what it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I'd be kind of curious if Auntie would feel the same way if she said it to her Right In that group chat. It's easy to talk when it's happening to others.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when you're just observing it, but when it's happening to you you're going to feel different, and so it's a lot easier to call her insensitive or too sensitive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because she's not the one who this comment is directed towards, and I think this is the other piece to it, that whole like you can't police what I'm saying. I kind of like this just as a general topic of like can we police what people are saying, no, we cannot, we actually can't. So saying, I think, requesting can we stop talking about this in the group chat? Fair, you can absolutely request it. You cannot demand it and there's actually nothing you can do about it in a lot of ways to stop them from doing it. Continue doing it. But you can decide what you're going to do if they don't stop.
Speaker 2:And I think that that's where the empowerment piece can come in for this person is they can say hey guys, you feel like I'm being too sensitive about this? Okay, well, I'm being too sensitive about this. Okay, well, I'm just going to let you know that, moving forward, do what you want. You want to talk about weight issues, all that kind of stuff. If that's really important to you, go ahead and keep talking about it in the group chat. But if you do, I will be removing myself from the group chat. So if you need anything from me, just contact me individually and we'll be great.
Speaker 2:That's actually a healthy boundary is we say this is what I want, and if you don't want that too, that's okay, but this is what I'm gonna do. So there's an easy easy. There is a solution here, not I think there'll be a lot of blowback, unfortunately, on the person if they did. But yeah, but it's still a solution.
Speaker 1:It kind of goes back to Mel Robbins thing about like the let them right. Right, if this is how they want to hold conversations, if this is what they want to talk about, let them. But then back to the whole let me. What is within my radius of control, what is it that I'm able to do, okay, well, let me mute this group chat. Let me, whatever, exit this group chat.
Speaker 1:Let me state my boundary and be firm and clear about what my boundary is. They're going to do what they want to do, but I also have control in terms of how I want to address this. And that's where that empowerment that you talked about comes into play, where I recognize that I'm not out of control. I don't have to sit here and, you know, be bullied by my aunt and my mom in this group chat conversation and feel silenced. I can actually do whatever it is that's within my control. And putting those elements of control into practice is where that empowerment comes into play. And being able to use that, yeah.
Speaker 2:I love it.
Speaker 2:Huge, okay, we're going to move to the second one Scenario. Okay, am I the a-hole for not wanting my therapist at my wedding? I love this one. Okay. So I, 31 female, am getting married in a few months. I've been seeing my therapist 55-year-old female for over six years and she's truly changed my life. Last year, during a particularly rough period, I joked if I ever got married she'd have to be there. She smiled, but didn't say much. She smiled but didn't say much. Well, she sent me a congratulatory card after we sent out our save the dates and asked if she should expect an invite. It's already a problem.
Speaker 1:Okay, we'll get back to it.
Speaker 2:I was shocked. I never formally invited her. I adore her, but she's still my therapist and I want my wedding to be a place where I can be fully myself without worrying about being observed or analyzed. I politely said that the guest list was very limited and that I hope she understood. Now I feel incredibly awkward. In our sessions she's been polite but distant. Oh my, I feel guilty but also kind of weirded out. Am I the a-hole for not wanting my therapist at my wedding, even though I may have once casually said she should come that?
Speaker 1:is.
Speaker 2:That is something wild, wow wild, yeah, oh, my goodness, start with this.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think you know, as a therapist, one of our, our greatest privileges is being able to walk through some of the most challenging and painful experiences with our clients.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and also to be able to walk through some of the most exciting experiences with our clients and I think that that's part of our role is to be with them throughout all these the different ranges of emotions that they might experience, right yeah, and to hold space for those experiences. But that's kind of where it ends. Yeah, right, it doesn't need. There has to be clear boundaries between us as therapists and our clients, just even from like a regulatory stance yeah.
Speaker 1:In terms of what that ethics, wise right Like. What does that even look like? There has to be clear boundaries when it comes to those pieces as well, and so I can still celebrate the wins and still support them during the more challenging experiences. But to be able to have your client feel guilty for not sending you an invite like that's unfair on so many levels Just when you think about the power dynamics and the level of vulnerability involved in all of this.
Speaker 1:Right, I don't think that's fair at all and, like this poster said, said you want to be able to enjoy your moment without having to like wonder. Are there parts of this experience that are going to come up in my therapy session? Is she going to bring up? You know, you don't want to have to worry about that no at all.
Speaker 2:No, that's yeah, that's unfair yeah, as soon, as soon as I read this one, I was like wow, I mean, this has actually never come up for me in the sense of an idea in my own head as a therapist, or even actually just talking to other therapists. So I mean, I feel like usually, if you're following your ethics, this wouldn't even pop in your mind as a possibility.
Speaker 2:As soon as the client said that joke, let's say, or said that in passing at the beginning, your reaction should be very much. I really hope it doesn't come to them asking me because then, I'll have to have that awkward like no, sorry, I can't because.
Speaker 2:So I'm just really questioning what's going on. But it highlights exactly why actually, and the exactly why is that it can create an awkward dynamic between us when we try to take this relationship outside of the therapeutic space right, and so we never want to actually, um, I mean, one of the things that we're supposed to do, especially if we're working in person in the same city, is we explain to that person if I run into you in public, this is what happens. I pretend you don't exist. Unless you decide to engage me, I will not ignore you. I will not be rude to you like I'm not gonna. I'm engage me. I will not ignore you. I will not be rude to you Like I'm not going to. I'm not going to.
Speaker 1:I'll wait for you to decide on how you want to approach it, and ideally we have that conversation.
Speaker 2:How do you want to approach it? I've had people say, let's just say this is my friend, this is my colleague. Do you know what I mean? Just so that we can like ease, any kind of, and I'm like, whatever you want to say how you know me, I will roll with that and that's fine, and so that's the. That that's the agreement.
Speaker 1:That's supposed to happen is what happens if we like bump into each other in the real world kind of thing and not like creating moments where we can like intentionally bump into each other at your wedding, like we're trying to avoid those moments we're actually trying to avoid them.
Speaker 1:You have your space and you can live your life and not feel as if your therapeutic experience is following you in these places and spaces and then I think there's this whole other layer of like, and then I noticed the relationship changed and she seemed colder with me.
Speaker 2:Afterwards I am definitely thinking this therapist needs to be doing some of their own work, because why were you so hurt by that? Why did you expect that?
Speaker 1:right, she made it. It was just a comment that she made. It wasn't the real experience. Yeah, but no, not the a-hole for not wanting your therapist at your wedding. Definitely not, not at all this one isn't even close.
Speaker 2:However, what does she do from here? Do you know what I mean? Like? I think that that is something I mean. So what we do know is rupture and repair in the therapeutic relationship is not a bad thing, right? If this client in the past has had difficulty stating what their needs are and then having someone respond poorly to it, getting to the other side of that, right. So I would say, at the end of the day, it should be the therapist that's like hey, let's address the elephant in the room and talk about this, because I don't want you to feel any kind of way about me, um, not being invited to your wedding and that type of like. I think it's on the therapist to clear the air. But if they don't, if there's a client in this situation, I would say you can make an attempt to clear the air and just say I'm just noticing, right, it's not your obligation to do any of this, and it might be challenging too right If you, especially if you're working on, like setting boundaries?
Speaker 1:and being able to assert yourself. That might take a lot of effort to be able to do that, but definitely in a necessary one if you're, if you're open to it because it's going to affect the therapeutic work from now on.
Speaker 2:And so I think there would be a lot of value in either trying to address it or changing therapists, because I would be concerned that it's going to continue to show up in the room.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it definitely needs to be addressed or a shift needs to happen. Yeah, okay, all right On to the next scenario. So am I the a-hole for reporting my coworker for fake mental health days? So I, a 36-year-old male working in a high-pressure nonprofit where we get unlimited paid time off and two floating mental health days a month, no questions asked. Recently, one of my coworkers, a 29-year-old female, bragged in the break room that she was using a mental health day to go to a Taylor Swift concert fellow Swifty and then another to sleep off the hangover. Meanwhile, the rest of us were slammed. One of our interns had a panic attack that day and I had to cover her work. I reported my co-worker's comment to our supervisor. Now she is furious and says I violated her privacy and made it unsaved to take mental health days without scrutiny. Was it none of my business or is she abusing a system meant for actual mental wellbeing? Am I the a-hole?
Speaker 2:You know, I want to start with, I really love this company. I actually of of some local companies that take sort of a similar approach when it comes to mental health and and support, where, um, they, they don't they don't have a limitation on it. They actually leave it more open and that actually leads to people making sort of being more responsible with it. Um, but I think that the the things that's sticking with me a little bit is this piece of, like her privacy. So she it doesn't sound like she told this to the poster in confidence. I think that that would be very different if she was sort of like confiding in her co-worker or something. I don't think there's any expectation of privacy when you're out there at a concert.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like right there and then there was no privacy Like Coldplay Right.
Speaker 2:You don't, you don't have like. You don't go into a break room and say this very openly and then expect everybody to keep that secret for you, especially when it negatively impacts them. So I think it was very strange that she expected some sense of privacy, and I think that I see this a lot. I'll see people post where they're like. I saw someone taking photos at a park of our children and I want to report them to police for taking. We need to protect the children, no question whatsoever. But you can't start accusing everybody out in public that you're going against their privacy when you're doing things publicly just because they record it and take a picture of it.
Speaker 1:You have to know that you're in a public space.
Speaker 2:That's not a private thing.
Speaker 1:They have the right to do what they need to do in a public space. Yeah, and I think that's where, again, just realizing what I share in a public break room is up for discussion. It's open.
Speaker 1:At this point, there is no confidentiality.
Speaker 1:I've already taken away the limits of confidentiality by sharing this in an open space and being in a public forum, ie the concert, and so those aspects in and of itself are things that make this a public issue to talk about.
Speaker 1:And I think the other piece that he mentioned as well is like the impact that this is going to have on the system that this workplace has.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 1:Right, and I think that's what we often see, where it's like certain things are in place for the betterment of an organization, but then when there are the few who take advantage of these systems or abuse the systems, the impact of that becomes it's not any longer just that individual who's impacted by that.
Speaker 1:Right now, all of a sudden, this perk, or whatever the case might be, is removed for all of us because there were a few bad apples who abused the system, who abused the system, you know. And so for this poster, I think the idea is recognizing like we actually need to have this system or this resource in place because there are people who are going to need to use it and it's not fair that the few bad apples are abusing the system, which can have an impact on the rest of us, who, eventually, are going to want to be able to have access to this resource, and so I think that his intention in sharing it with the supervisor was not to be malicious or to be mean, but it's like I don't want this to end up having an impact on the rest of us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, cause I think if it hadn't impacted him, or he hadn't seen the impact of her deciding to do that, I imagine he might've been less inclined to actually say anything. It's like oh well, live and let live. Nothing bad came of this, but they were directly negatively impacted by that choice and it's there to protect their emotional and mental well-being. It's not there to get over a hangover, exactly Like you're abusing it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're abusing the system. I'm curious how she found out, how the poster how.
Speaker 2:The girl that he told oh, maybe the supervisor spoke to her about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd be a little bit curious if he was protected in that, oh right. Or if they said so-and-so, came to us and told us that you told them, you know, because as business owners, we also know. If somebody came to us with that information, we'd be put in a bit of a difficult situation. It's like, well, how do I address this directly with the person? This is problematic. How do I address it with them without saying where I heard it from, because it's either going to be obvious I could try to act like, but you know who you said it to who was working that day?
Speaker 1:Who was in the rig room? It's one of two people.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So it kind of puts a business owner between a rock and a hard place on how to address it. Yeah, um, but I think I mean I think it was one that needed to be addressed for a number of reasons and um which again is part of why it was addressed right, just recognizing that this is a system, this is a resource in place. How do we address this and not let the abuse continue to happen unnecessarily?
Speaker 2:I would say maybe one like potential, I mean, if he had gone to her and sort of said in advance listen, I understand, coming from that understanding place of, I understand that this is a great policy that we have and I understand the desire to kind of use it in this way. But I think one of the implications you might not realize when you say that is that it has a negative implication on us, that we have to pick up the slack but paired with that, we could lose this as a resource if it is abused in this way. You know so you know. It makes me uncomfortable that you share that and try to address it with them directly before going to management. May have at least um, it not felt like you were like telling on her. But I say this while also recognize that's not his is also not his responsibility or job.
Speaker 1:He's not the supervisor.
Speaker 2:Um, so I I just say that because sometimes, depending on the situation, it could benefit you better in the workplace If you tried at least first to address it directly with the person. See how they take that. If they're like oh man, I didn't know what you're so right, I can't believe that did. It was such a crappy day that turned out that it was really hard for you guys. I feel really bad. I will never do that again. Guess what I'm picturing that person's going to go. You know what I actually do understand. It's cool, let's move forward. Let's not do that anymore. If the person is like you know what? You don't know that that Taylor Swift wasn't needed for my mental health who, how dare like they kind of took that more like therapeutic for me, entitled kind of like position, then you're like okay, well, let's see what management has to say about it. I mean, I guess you could go in that direction but, it's a tough.
Speaker 2:It's a tough scenario but I don't know anybody who's gonna go like you're fully in the wrong that's sure doing that like look it's a 50.
Speaker 1:50 at this point it's like, depending on how important that um colleague is to you, how important the relationship is to you.
Speaker 2:Yes, oh, good point. Yeah, that's. You know, if you're like, I don't care, I don't care, you know she does this.
Speaker 1:I'm over it right whereas if this is an important relationship to you, one that you want to, then giving her that opportunity to be able to reflect on it in a different way could be very helpful, yeah, whereas if you're over it and you're like, listen, I'm I'm tired of covering for you, there's no consideration on your part, then you might just kind of skip that process and go straight to the supervisor, and then also not even just the the how, the relationship, but also again, like can you mentioned it earlier? Like in terms of how receptive is this person to feedback? You know, are those things? Those are probably things that you would have taken into consideration, hopefully, before deciding to go straight to the boss. But there are definitely some steps that could be taken before that piece, and hopefully those steps were taken, and if not, then for next time, consider taking a few steps before jumping straight to the last management.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you bring up such a perfect point, though, that I want to highlight, which is you always want to ask yourself what's the purpose of the communication. Right, so, like, if my purpose to, uh, talk to my manager is so that we can protect the like, my whole purpose is I just want to protect those, that flexibility of that mental health support, and I'm worried that if they find out that this is being taken advantage of, we're going to lose it. So my purpose is to let them know so that they can, so they can take care of it and I don't risk losing it. Or is my purpose to get her fired? Or is my purpose to protect that fired? Or is my purpose to protect that colleague relationship? Is that purpose to protect other colleagues from her and her behavior? What is the what's the purpose? Because that will really help us actually decide who do I want to talk to, how do I want to talk to them? It'll. It'll change the entire thing and I find that's a conversation I have a lot in therapy. They'll say I really want to have this conversation, I'm like to.
Speaker 2:What purpose? Is it? To change their behavior or just get it off your chest? Because if it's just to get off your chest. We can come up with how to say that. But if you actually want to encourage change behavior on their part, we're going to have to restructure that entire conversation and also let go of that as being the outcome, because they may or may not change their behavior. So we actually have to. I understand that's your goal, but we actually have to have a secondary goal for this to be worthwhile. Otherwise it's very dangerous because that could just blow up the relationship. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's again a big part of when we think about how we work through, like in DBT, for example. Right, there's always this objective goal. And then, what's the objective goal? Yeah, how do I want to feel at the end of this conversation when this is all resolved. How do I want to feel at the end of this conversation when this is all resolved. How do I want to feel.
Speaker 2:How do I want the other person to feel at the end of all of this as well, and if it's pride and how I handled the situation, that might be a very different path. Yeah, exactly, then some some other goal at the end of it? Yeah, and I think we're usually hoping somebody's going to go with like I just want to feel proud of how I handled this situation, because that's always going to be our easiest path to help them figure out what that looks like. Yeah, if it's and and pretty much we're really always hoping against the I want the other person to change their behavior because we're like, ooh, that one, that's a lot harder than you might think it is.
Speaker 1:But ultimately it's kind of like playing the tape to the end, kind of starting from the bottom up. Yeah, how do I want this to look at the end of?
Speaker 2:it all, yeah. When it's all said and done and then work backwards, yeah, and then it can help us to know what step A is. Yes, with the alchemist you don't feel like you're the a-hole. I love it, okay. Last one for today.
Speaker 2:Am I the a-hole for refusing to let my ex see our dog because he's in rehab? I, 27 year old female, broke up with my ex 30 year old male a year ago after years of loving him through addiction, relapses and emotional chaos. He recently entered a long-term rehab program and reached out to ask if I'd bring our shared dog, a four-year-old golden retriever, for a visit. I said no, not because I'm trying to be cruel, but because every time he's tried to reconnect in the past he's pulled me back into old patterns. The dog is my comfort animal now and I'm scared seeing him will emotionally wreck me and set back my own healing. I suggested sending photos or doing a Zoom call with the dog, but he got angry and said I was punishing him for getting better. I get, the recovery is hard, but I'm tired of always being the support system. Am I the a-hole for not letting my ex see our dog while he's in rehab? This one is so. This is so nuanced.
Speaker 2:There's a lot in this there really is.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think that there's like there's two things at play.
Speaker 1:There's the distance that you're trying to create between your ex for your own mental health right, you want to be healthy, yeah, and so you're creating that space between your ex. And then there's a relationship that your dog and your ex have, your ex has with your dog, which is also very important for his wellness and his emotional stability as well. Yeah, I think in this scenario here it sounds like we're sort of intertwining the two, right Like me seeing him as him seeing the dog, and him seeing the dog is him seeing me, whereas there might be some room in sort of like untangling the web a little bit and being able to recognize. Can I step outside of this for a moment? Are there ways that both of these experiences can coexist, where he can see the dog and get that emotional support that he's needing for his own wellness and his own recovery, and I can still create the space and distance for myself, versus it having to feel like it's a, it's, it's a one, all kind of thing, or end all be, all kind of.
Speaker 1:you know what I mean and so I don't know. I kind of think, like, is there somebody else who's trusted, who can bank a visit? You know they have family visits at rehab, so is there someone else who can go for the family visit? Is there someone else who can go for the family visit, like, is there a friend or a sibling or someone else who can go with the dog and do a visit with him?
Speaker 1:where I can, it's a win-win, where I can create space for myself, but yet he can also get the healing and the support that he's needing, without me getting in the way of that, because I don't want to be the one to own that for him. I don't want it to be said that I got in the way of his healing and his recovery because I'm protecting my own, whereas we can kind of separate the two, I think at least.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I actually find it really interesting that that didn't even occur to anybody involved in this situation, that that would be actually a really simple and straightforward solution to the problem is the fact that we could just have somebody else bring the dog over so interestingly.
Speaker 2:It kind of shows how stuck their dynamic is, because he immediately made her the bad guy in this situation, the problem in this situation, because she's refusing, while at the same time she immediately made him the bad guy and took away her own agency by saying, whenever I'm in his presence, he forces me back into this relationship somehow, and I'm afraid that's going to happen again. So, to protect my own peace, I'm like doubling down on the no Right and I and I'm like, and now I'm asking the public, like, am I the a-hole for this? And I'd actually be curious I didn't read what the comments are because I could actually see a really 50, 50 split on this of like, come on, just bring them the dog. You know what? No, you protect your peace and don't bring in the dog. And I I actually wonder how many people are like, hey guys, there's this third option if someone else brings the dog you have to be the one to do it.
Speaker 1:You don't actually have to be the one to do it in a situation you almost get that tunnel of vision right, you almost get the blinders are up and you don't recognize the opportunity to see beyond the options that have always existed. And that's when we get stuck in that vicious cycle of like. This is how it's always been. This has been the dynamic of our relationship, which is why it's been toxic and why I felt this way. But again, that's where the role of therapy comes into play.
Speaker 2:That's exactly what I was thinking.
Speaker 1:I'm like maybe I'm being too therapist in this, Like yeah, that's where therapy comes into play.
Speaker 2:Because it's like, guys, we have options. We have this other option that nobody has thought of. That feels like low-hanging fruit, feels really obvious when we look at it, but when you are in the heart of it, it's actually.
Speaker 1:There's no other option. I either go and sacrifice my own well-being and my own peace, or he's the one who's sacrificing his well-being and his peace because I'm not going. Yeah, but sometimes we have to be able to kind of step outside of ourselves, and I always like to look at this as like okay, what would someone else say in this position? Right?
Speaker 1:Or what are some other ways of looking at the situation? What would my therapist say about this situation? Just kind of getting us out of that stuck mode or that frame of mind where it's so limiting and it's so one-sided, but like giving ourselves space. Okay, what is that wise mind saying? Somebody who I look forward to, I look up to as being a source of wisdom, what would they say in this situation? Right, my mom or my uncle or my dad or whomever it is, what would they say? And kind of giving us that space to look at a situation outside of our own lenses at times is going to be helpful.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I think that that's the part when people misunderstand what therapy is or isn't and that type of stuff, or this idea that people will only benefit or need therapy if they uh are, are, have a mental illness or seriously ill.
Speaker 2:It's like no, the reason why we are very adamant that everyone can benefit from it. Cause if you were in this situation, if I was in this situation, odds are would actually be thinking very similarly, even though we're therapists, even if we have all this knowledge and all this background. Because you cannot force like this other perspective all the time when the emotions are high. Exactly Because we can ask ourselves sometimes that question how would I give advice to somebody else in this situation? But we have to have calmed down Exactly Differently the mind entirely in this situation.
Speaker 2:But we have to have calmed down. Exactly If our emotional mind is like, really activated, it is going to be more tunnel vision and it's just going to be black and white. And I always think about it this way. When we're upset emotionally, it takes a lot of energy from our brain. So does thinking and problem solving takes a lot of energy from our brain. But because the emotional part is significantly older, right, and been around a lot longer than the thinking part of our brain has been, then what's going to? What is our brain going to prioritize? It's going to prioritize the energy going to the emotional part. We're going to lose energy at the problem solving part and it's why contemplating two options way less actually energy consuming than trying to actually think all of the different options, right.
Speaker 2:So people are really stuck with, like I, I can't see myself out of this solution or this problem. I can't see myself out of this problem. Odds are, if you actually talk it through, even with a friend, sometimes assuming they're not biased actually just saying it out loud can help you start to caught, to actually use the problem-solving part of your brain to communicate it, which actually calms the emotional center down. You'll notice. Oh, I actually see solutions that I didn't see before, which is also the beauty of therapy, and journaling too, and journaling yeah.
Speaker 1:It shifts sort of where we're thinking and how we're thinking right.
Speaker 2:And where the energy of our brain is Exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, those are such important pieces.
Speaker 2:All right. Well, that was our last scenario for today. So that wraps up today's episode of the MindSpa podcast. I hope you enjoyed it and please remember to reach out to us at media, at the MindSpaca, to give us your scenarios. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Bye folks.
