S2 · Ep 1: Healing in Arab Family Dynamics — Addressing Stigma With Compassion | Renad Albar | The MindSpa Podcast

In this episode of The MindSpa Podcast, Tina Wilston and Michelle Massunken sit down with Renad Albar, Registered Psychotherapist (Qualifying) at MindSpa Mental Health, to explore how culture, family dynamics, and early life experiences shape the way we understand mental health.

Renad shares how a high school careers test gently redirected her path from architecture toward psychology, and how early academic detours and research experiences deepened her respect for evidence-based care. Her journey reflects something many listeners will recognize: growth is rarely linear. Meaningful work often emerges through reflection, curiosity, and a willingness to change direction.

The conversation moves into the heart of Renad’s clinical focus: supporting children and families navigating separation and divorce. We explore how children naturally interpret adult conflict through a self-focused lens, and why early therapeutic support can help protect self-esteem and emotional wellbeing. Tina, Michelle, and Renad discuss practical language parents can use to reduce blame, model calm, and support resilience during family transitions.

We also examine stigma within Arab family systems, where therapy is increasingly viewed as proactive rather than crisis-based, yet community pressure and concerns around reputation may still influence help-seeking. Renad offers a thoughtful perspective on collectivist values, showing how boundaries and respect can coexist. The discussion expands into relationships, matchmaking, and the difference between chasing chemistry and thoughtfully choosing a life partner.

Renad Albar is a Registered Psychotherapist (Qualifying) with the College of Registered Psychotherapists of Ontario and practices at MindSpa Mental Health in Kanata and online. She works with children, teens, adults, couples, and families, and provides services in both English and Arabic. Her integrative, person-centred approach draws from Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, Solution-Focused Brief Therapy, attachment-based approaches, narrative therapy, and compassion-focused practices.

This episode offers language, perspective, and practical insight for anyone navigating family change, cultural expectations, or the long view of relationships.

Learn more about Renad Albar at MindSpa Mental Health:

The MindSpa Podcast

Thoughtful conversations about mental health, relationships, identity, healing, grounded in clinical expertise and steady human insight.

Hosts

Tina Wilston, M.Ed., Registered Psychotherapist

Co-Owner, MindSpa Mental Health Centre

LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook

Michelle Massunken, MSW, RSW

Co-Owner, MindSpa Mental Health Centre

LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook

MindSpa Mental Health Centre

Ottawa - Kanata & Gloucester

themindspa.ca

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Transcript

New Season And Guest Introduction

Tina Wilston 0:02

Welcome to season two of Mind Spa Podcast. We are in a new location, and uh we're really excited to be in our West End. We filmed in our East End last year, and we are very excited to have Renad here. She is going to share with us her journey to become a therapist. She's a fantastic therapist here at Mind Spa and the population she works with and get uh give us a bit of insight into Arab culture and mental health. So, welcome. We're so happy to have you here. So, start off, tell us a bit about yourself.

From Architecture Dreams To Psychology

Renad Albar 0:35

Okay. Well, first of all, thank you for that warm welcome to us. I'm happy to be here today. And okay, we can start off. Well, the journey to becoming a therapist wasn't always the plan. Okay. I did not know that. I actually at a certain point wanted to become an architect. Oh, okay. And I think I was set on that for quite some time. And I was lawyer, so I get it. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. I mean, it changes, right? Yeah. Then I think in my careers class in grade 10, we did like a um a personality test to see what careers match our personality. Okay. And psychotherapist came up as among a lot of other psych stuff. So I was like, I took it into consideration. Did it surprise you? Not that we've got that fit. Yeah, because I was always interested in psych. Like I always liked it. I was interested in like how the human brain works, behaviour, all that stuff. So I wasn't too surprised, but I I was like, I don't know. Right. And um architect did pop up as well. So I was like, okay, so maybe it's meant to be. But then um I took a psych class, I think in grade 11, and I fell in love. I was like, maybe this is where I need to be. And I did go to counsellor as a child as well, from the ages I believe, maybe four or five. Okay. And I saw her periodically throughout my life, and she helped me a lot, and I owe her a lot. I I feel like that experience shaped who I am as a person, and I I always enjoyed what she did. So it was something that I always thought of.

Tina Wilston 2:27

And they're so different though. When you're like exploring university and stuff like that, there's not a lot of overlap.

Renad Albar 2:35

No, not not at all. And she was also a counsellor, which I know is a little bit different.

Tina Wilston 2:39

Yeah.

University Detours And Finding The Path

Renad Albar 2:40

And uh, she worked primarily with um children, and she also did a lot of group work, which I think that's why I kind of enjoy group work as well. Okay. Being on both sides of the spectrum.

Tina Wilston 2:52

Yeah.

Renad Albar 2:53

And I believe, yeah, in grade 12, I was like, I think I'm going into psych.

Tina Wilston 2:58

Okay. Okay. So you decided before going into university.

Renad Albar 3:01

I did, I did. And I liked all three of the behavioural sciences, and I was set that that's what I was going to do. Yeah. It wasn't what I did, but I was set on that. And I always found myself naturally being good at giving advice. Now I know that giving advice and therapy isn't the same thing, but I but people telling you what's going on with them is the same. Yes.

Tina Wilston 3:24

And so if you're good at getting people to tell you stuff, that's a skill in and of itself.

Renad Albar 3:29

Ken, I've I found I found that happening a lot in my life, whether it was friends or family. Like I always would have somebody coming and confiding to me. So it it felt pretty natural to go into it.

Tina Wilston 3:41

Yeah.

Renad Albar 3:42

And I thought, why not give it a shot and see what it would be like in university? And I did go into it, majoring in psych, minoring in um, oh no. Whoa. Minoring in anthropology and sociology. Okay, yeah. And I quickly knew that anthropology was a no. Okay. Very quickly. But in that first semester, I just was like, this isn't for me. But you did pursue the full minor? I did not. Oh, okay. Okay. I switched out. I switched out of minors multiple times. And I at some point was in political science, and I was actually very deep into it.

Tina Wilston 4:21

Wow.

Renad Albar 4:22

And then I was like, I don't think this is the place for me. Okay. And I was really hopeful to be able to change it. And luckily for me, I ended up changing it very quickly. So I was able to uh switch into English literature and I did women and gender studies as well, which I fell in love with very quickly.

Tina Wilston 4:39

And those go really well together.

Renad Albar 4:42

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So it ended up working out. And yeah, I at first in university was really struggling to know whether I wanted to be a psychiatrist, a psychotherapist, a counselor, because nobody really tells you the difference between each of them. No, this is very true. Yeah. And how how to get there. Yeah. And that was a really hard decision.

Tina Wilston 5:05

Well, I imagine when you realized medic medical school was required to be a psychiatrist, you were like, maybe not. I'm not quite on that trajectory. You know what? It was actually the opposite.

Renad Albar 5:15

Like I was starting off to go into med school. That was always the goal. Oh, I see. Arab family. So it was, I didn't get that pressure from either of my parents. My mom, although would would have won loved that for me. Yeah. Like medical school was something she had hoped to do herself.

Tina Wilston 5:34

Yeah.

Renad Albar 5:35

But um I remember I was like, I don't, I don't think that's what I want to do. The more I learned about it, I was like, you don't get enough time with the client. Right. It's not really.

Tina Wilston 5:46

The interpersonal part is not focused on at all. I don't think.

Renad Albar 5:52

I don't, I don't think so.

Why Psychotherapy Over Psychiatry

Tina Wilston 5:53

Maybe they have a course in like bedside manner, maybe, but yeah, but it's it's it's not what we do.

Renad Albar 5:59

And I remember looking and thinking, I don't think that's for me. Okay. Because I actually wanted the interpersonal relationship with the client. I didn't just want to prescribe medication and then check in every few months.

Tina Wilston 6:14

Yeah.

Renad Albar 6:14

Yeah. So I had a prof that talked about her psychotherapy journey and how that's what she did for a very long time before becoming a professor. And I remember thinking, that's it. Okay. That's what I want to do. That's what I want to do. Yeah. And wow, it's been a long time since then, a good like seven years now.

Tina Wilston 6:37

Yeah.

Renad Albar 6:38

And I remember it being really hard even navigating, um getting into my master's because I kept hearing that you need to have research. Um, you need to be a research assistant and you need to have some background in research to be able to get into a master's program. So that was very, very scary at the time. Right. So I was like, oh God, okay, I don't even like research like that. But um let's see what we can do. And I ended up being a research assistant three times. So it worked out um in our psych department and in our linguistics department.

Tina Wilston 7:20

Okay. Yeah.

Research Fears To Published Author

Renad Albar 7:22

So so it worked out. And for someone who doesn't like research, I ended up publishing a paper. Wow. So I was like, okay, well, there we go. I guess so published author then? Yes, yes.

Tina Wilston 7:35

Amazing. You can add that to your your list of skills.

Renad Albar 7:40

Yeah, I can, I could. That'd be a good idea. But um, yeah, and I I remember thinking like what population would I want to work with?

Tina Wilston 7:52

Yes.

Choosing Populations And Working With Kids

Renad Albar 7:53

And I've always wanted to work with kids. I knew that. I I do I do enjoy working with adults as well. Um, but I always wanted to work with kids in particular those who have gone through parental separation. Okay. Because that was something that I've experienced. And I remember how much of a difference it made for me going to talk to somebody and having somebody guide me. Just I I felt like there were certain things that I benefited, I benefited from. Um, but also there were things that I wish were said to me also as a child. So working with kids who are going through that, I I think that being that support person for them, letting them know that you know it's gonna be okay. Yeah. It is that something you wish that they had said to you? Like, do you remember? I feel like I don't I don't remember too much, but I remember enjoying it. I I remember um because I would go back like every few years, but then I reached a certain age where like my counselor couldn't see me anymore because I was like 15. So it was like, okay, well, like you would have to move on to somebody else. But I just I just think that there were a lot of things that I don't want to say they weren't said just because I don't remember, yeah, but I think that are important for kids to hear at that age, yeah. To understand that, you know, just because your parents aren't together doesn't mean that they don't love you. Or it doesn't, or it shouldn't, it shouldn't affect your confidence as a person. And it does.

Tina Wilston 9:36

Yeah.

Renad Albar 9:36

Right? So being able to cater to that self-esteem from a very young age, I find is so important.

Tina Wilston 9:43

Especially before it's sort of set in stone, because what we know is that children experience the world from their perspective and how this involves me and how this is because of me and all that type of stuff. And it's very natural without effort, that's how they view the world. So they see someone walk in a room, they look angry, they're like, Why are they mad at me? It's like, because they don't have that ability at first to recognize, oh, something probably happened before they came into the room to make them angry. It's probably not about me. And so there's a lot of work that has to be done to teach them at that time, this is not about you, this isn't about how much I love you, all that type of stuff. Um, and you're right, you know, being able to kind of help with that self-esteem stuff as it's as it's getting, I guess, ingrained in the person versus we see what that looks like 20 years later, 40 years later, where the self-esteem is negatively impacted at that time. And now we're trying to undo 40 years of low self-esteem or self-worth, which is harder to do.

Renad Albar 11:00

Absolutely. And it also impacts the way you view romantic relationships, the way you view friendships, the way you view yourself as a person. So I think that if you know you go on being very unhealed, it's it it'll come out in certain ways.

Tina Wilston 11:17

In different spots, yeah, for sure.

Renad Albar 11:19

Yeah, that trigger.

Tina Wilston 11:21

Yeah. So tell me more about Arab culture and how that intersects with the work that you do, the work you enjoy doing and your experience, sort of working in uh with with different cultures. Um tell me more about that.

Self‑Esteem And Children Of Divorce

Renad Albar 11:37

Yeah, so for the Arab culture, I find that um thankfully things are changing. Um, the new generation is very open to therapy. I find that um millennial parents are are doing a great job with even um being open to going to like couples therapy and family therapy. It's becoming a lot more common now. Um, but there is still a stigma towards going to therapy. Okay. Because I believe that um within the Arab culture, people think that if you were to go to a therapist, you need to be seriously ill.

Tina Wilston 12:17

Okay. So therapy is only for the mentally ill. Yes. Okay.

Renad Albar 12:21

Yes. Like you have to be diagnosed with something very severe for you to go. But if you are just going to maybe unpack some trauma, right? Some or if you're a little family, anything of that nature, they would look at you and be like, you're fine. Right. Like, I'm okay. You should be okay. Okay. Or it's immediately like, what did I do? Like, I raised you so well, I did all these things for you, which of course, like I appreciate that, and that's great. But it doesn't mean that you know there might there might not have been things that have impacted me throughout my life. Just because, you know, you've you've done all these things for me.

Tina Wilston 13:08

Yeah.

Renad Albar 13:08

And I think that's where a lot of Arab parents um struggle.

Tina Wilston 13:13

Okay.

Renad Albar 13:13

Because it's like I sacrificed so much, I did so much. Like how you should be fine. Yeah, you should be fine. Yeah. Or else you're being a little ungrateful. Okay. In in some way. And and I also understand that they they weren't raised to necessarily have the opportunity to take a look into their own mental health. Because that's also a privilege, being able to take a step back and to look at, you know, the trauma that you may have experienced.

Tina Wilston 13:41

Right.

Renad Albar 13:42

Right. At that time, I don't think that they they had that opportunity. I actually um recently my uncle asked me, he was like, Why do you think people from like my generation? And he was genuinely asking, don't struggle as much with mental health.

Tina Wilston 13:57

And I was like, Who told you that? I love, but yeah, valid. I can see that being a valid conclusion to draw from my generation didn't seem to need therapy. Yeah. And your generation seems to need so much therapy. So what did we get? Yeah, right. And what are you guys getting on?

Renad Albar 14:16

And I told him, I was like, I don't think it's the fact that you guys didn't need it or couldn't benefit from it, but it's the fact that you guys didn't have the luxury to think about it. Your life was very much go, go, go. Survival. In in some ways, I would say survival. I would, I would probably say my my grandparents' generation may have been a little bit more on the survival mode. Women more than men.

Tina Wilston 14:43

Yeah.

Renad Albar 14:44

Um, but they yeah, they didn't really have the opportunity to sit and think about that. Because even the way they were raised, like if your dad or mom told you to do something, you don't question it, you just do it.

Tina Wilston 14:56

Yeah.

Stigma And Therapy In Arab Culture

Renad Albar 14:56

But our generation came around and was like, well, you need to talk to me to tell me why.

Tina Wilston 15:01

Right.

Renad Albar 15:01

So there's a lot of like discussion, and they themselves aren't used to that. I mean, they'll have a conversation, but they might not have it the way that they're supposed to, or like in the politically correct manner.

Tina Wilston 15:15

Yeah.

Renad Albar 15:15

They'll try to, but sometimes it leads to like yelling at you because I don't have to tell you why. Like, just do it.

Tina Wilston 15:22

Do you think that's sometimes viewed as disrespect too to question why? Like, I was taught not to question why, I just did what I was told. Stop questioning so much. It's why don't you trust me or why don't you just believe me? Why don't you just trust that I'm telling you for a good reason? I shouldn't have to explain myself.

Renad Albar 15:42

I would say for some households, yes. I I grew up in a very um, I guess, progressive household, like even from like the generation of my grandparents. So it was very like my experience is very different. So that's why whenever I talk to another Arab person and they'll tell me about their experience, I bel I know that it's real and I know that it's true. Okay. For probably a lot of people. Just yourself. Yeah. I just struggle to relate to it because it's not my reality. But I do know, like, for mental health for sure, there's still that stigma. It still exists, like I said. Um, I even um mentioned to you how if someone does go to therapy, sometimes parents will think like, what would everyone else think? Okay. What would everyone else say about us if you go to therapy? It means maybe like I didn't raise you well, right? Or who's going to marry you if they find out you go to therapy? Yeah. Because that means, you know, especially I would say for men and for women, it might be different. Like for a man, it might be like, oh, he he's not well. So how is he going to be responsible for a household? Okay. So it's very much that shame that it can bring towards the family name and towards the family themselves as well.

Tina Wilston 16:58

Right. So shame is a big thing, you were saying shame is a a big thing because there's the shame regarding school education and um profession. Yes. And then their shame around mental health stuff. And a lot of them do boil back down to marriage. You said marriage is a big I'm actually this is really off from stuff we've talked about before, but I'm actually kind of curious because Western culture is moving so much more towards getting married so much later, starting families so much later, but even more, it seems to be moving more towards people not having kids, not getting married. I was saying there's a whole episode we could do on what's happening between men and women in in today's society, but I guess I'm kind of curious if that is actually happening across cultures. Oh, it is. Okay. It absolutely is. Because I don't feel like Western culture has put as much pressure on marriage historically, being and and I think it could be good for us to talk about the difference between individualistic culture versus collectivist culture. But I do find in individualistic cultures, uh, the importance I want to say on marriage just doesn't seem to be quite as high. Right.

Renad Albar 18:11

I would say the importance of marriage is still high. Okay. But women aren't settling as much anymore. Okay. I think. I think that before there was the pressure of you need to get married, you need to have kids and all of that. While that pressure still exists, now everybody has, I would say for men as well, um, everyone has different standards of what they would like in a partner. And because people just aren't finding it anymore, or they're focused maybe too much on like their education and their career and their life. That takes time. It really does take time. And also people just want to really find themselves and live a little bit more before they settle down. So I think that um even now, more than ever, a lot of women are entering their 30s and they're still not married.

Tina Wilston 19:00

Yeah.

Marriage, Options, And Modern Dating

Renad Albar 19:01

And I I think that marriage for some people might not be, it's not looking as appetizing as it used to. So it's almost like, let's like, let's see what else could I get out of it to be able to want it a little bit more. I know that some people are reaching that stage of like, what am I getting out of marriage? Yeah. To do it. While others are no, like there's there's like they still want it, but they're just not finding partners yet. Or they're focused on other venues in their life right now.

Tina Wilston 19:37

And does that then lead to pressure from the older generation? Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Renad Albar 19:43

Definitely. There's like that that worry of, oh, like, I just want to make sure you're going to be okay. Yeah. Or like, I would love to see my grandchildren. And I think that marriage will always be such an important part of the Arab culture. Like, even all so many like girls that I know, even though they're not married yet, and they are either pushing 30 or are in their 30s, they still want it.

Tina Wilston 20:12

Okay.

Renad Albar 20:12

That desire for it is still there. I wouldn't say that people don't want to be married. I'm sure there are some, but for the most part, people do want that type of of life. They do want to settle down with someone, they do want kids, but it is um, it is taking longer.

Tina Wilston 20:29

What do you think it is that they don't want? So you said they're not settling the same way. So they're saying I don't want someone who is what unemployed, or do you know what I mean? Or not progressive enough or controlling, or like what is it that they're wanting to avoid?

Renad Albar 20:51

I would say it's not necessarily something they want to avoid, but it's more so like now I have more of a choice to make. Because a few years back, like I would even say for my mom's generation, maybe not too much. Um, there were people who um like they did, they did date people and they did meet each other and they did fall in love and they had love marriages, but for the most part, the way um people would meet each other is through either family, through friends, like someone would know somebody and they think that they would be a good match, and then they would have them meet up. Yeah. And it's very much like, oh, like on paper, they they look good. Let's give them an opportunity to meet. If they feel like they would like to continue getting to know each other, we'll do that. So it was very much like that. But now people have the opportunity of getting to meet people elsewhere, like in the workplace or you know, outside online as well, like now with social media. So I think that because there are so many options as well, right? That sometimes people are like, well, I don't need to, you know, I don't need to go the traditional route. Yeah. Yeah. And because I I I also think that a part of that isn't so great. Like sometimes when you have too many options, you You don't know what to do anymore.

Sparks, Setups, And Online Fatigue

Tina Wilston 22:12

Well, I I mean, I think there's an argument to be made that's part of what the problem is present day, is that people feel like they have so many options. So they actually have very little tolerance for this. I I know some people will say, Oh, there the the conversation didn't flow on date number one, so I'm not gonna do a date number two. And it's like, what if they were nervous? Yeah, right? Like we're just gonna get rid of all the nervous people. And what would that mean, honestly, if I get rid of all of the people that would be nervous on a first date, what type of people do really, really well on a first date? Are they also people that do really well in long-term committed relationships and marriage? I would argue to say not necessarily. Right. Right. And so I sometimes when I hear the criteria for the cutoff of like no more, the other one is like there's no spark. There's no spark. That's my favorite. There's no spark. And like, but what we know is what ignites that spark isn't always a good thing. Because sometimes if you grew up, let's say, in a very controlling, um, abusive household, unfortunately, that kind of behavior can be part of the spark. It feels familiar, it feels comfortable, it feels known. We gravitate towards feel what feels comfortable. And now the thing that sparks me is not really the healthiest thing for myself, right? And so I've seen, I don't know, when I hear this like way of meeting, which is through friends and family that know you and know them and go, ooh, I could see this. There's a difference between forcing it, yeah, but like it being part of it'd be nice if that was what was part of culture. It'd be normal to like set people up and do all that kind of stuff. Um, I could see that actually being quite superior to online dating in a lot of ways. Yeah.

Renad Albar 24:01

And I think people miss that. People miss getting set up because also online dating, it is a complete stranger. I don't, I don't know if you're a scammer. I don't know if you're a real person. Are you gonna catfish me? Right. Or do you have any ulterior motives? Like there's there's so many issues regarding safety.

Tina Wilston 24:21

Yeah.

Renad Albar 24:22

But with you know, like a friend setting you up with someone, you already know that. Okay, well, someone can vouch for them. Yeah, like they're they're a real person, they're cocoa normal, right? So yeah, I do, I do think that um there is a little bit of a transition going on right now, I would say within like the Arab youth, where people are really just, you know, they're they have more opportunity now, not just, you know, in meeting people, but also just in life. Like they are there's so many different careers, yeah, passions, hobbies. People more than ever are now going into therapy. They're like, actually, I want a partner who also goes to therapy. Like, I want to do my own inner healing and my own work before committing to somebody. I've actually heard someone say that um they're no longer necessarily looking for a like a life partner when looking for somebody, they're looking for a father to their children. So that criteria is very different than just a life partner. So they're like, I'm looking at things more differently when I meet somebody, and I'm like, okay, I'll like that's that's an interesting like take as well. Uh huh. I haven't heard that one. That's interesting. Yeah.

Tina Wilston 25:35

So I think that everyone does that increase the expectations or decrease though.

Renad Albar 25:42

I I would think increase.

Tina Wilston 25:44

Yeah.

Renad Albar 25:44

Yeah. Because I want to make sure that the genetics. Yeah, like what's what's going on with you?

Tina Wilston 25:50

Right. Any heart problems in your family.

Raising Standards And Parenting Readiness

Renad Albar 25:54

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I I do think that it might increase because um as a child with divorced parents, I I think it's important to uh be careful who you have children with.

Tina Wilston 26:10

Right.

Renad Albar 26:11

Right? Like, even though you are picking a life partner, sometimes that love fades away. Sometimes that respect can also fade away and people can change. Right. But if you're picking someone who you know is also wants to be a parent, I think that's really important.

Tina Wilston 26:25

Okay.

Renad Albar 26:25

Like I have that desire. It's not a few.

Tina Wilston 26:27

So whether we work out or not, I trust that you're gonna do right by my family. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I my husband and I say all the time the most important decision I think someone ever makes in their entire life is who they have children with. It's not even who they marry. Because you could get married and not have kids. Yeah. And you can have kids with someone and not get married. And so who you have because that's a lifetime commitment of communication and interaction and all that type of stuff, you can change careers a lot more easily than you can change the the other parent to my child. Um, and and literally can put you on a path of years and years of general happiness and bliss or or misery. Yeah. Um, and again, it's not about whether you stay together or not. It's literally just what type of person they are, how they handle conflict, how they handle stress, um, how they handle parenthood, whether they stick around or not, whether they put the needs of the kids ahead of their own, that kind of stuff.

Renad Albar 27:33

Yeah. And I find that divorce culture is so different, like from country to country.

Tina Wilston 27:38

Oh, okay.

Renad Albar 27:39

Yeah. In terms of like who gets the kids.

Tina Wilston 27:42

Yeah.

Renad Albar 27:43

It's not necessarily who is financially stable and should or who is better for their well-being. No, it can sometimes be, you know, uh like the sometimes the dad might take them just to get revenge over the mom to make her feel bad. Yeah. And it's like, well, okay, this child over here needs you, needs love, needs care. You are scaring this child. Right. Sometimes the grandparents end up with the kids because mom and dad are really butting heads. Okay. And it's like, well, again, this children's. Is that cultural or is that law? Or is that I would say um it's more culture, a little bit of law sprinkled in there when they're really young.

Tina Wilston 28:30

Okay.

Renad Albar 28:31

Which I I I find that to be a little bit confusing because usually Does it favor mom then in law when they're younger? It from what I believe, I think dad can take them when they're younger, and then they can as they get older, they can make a choice. But I think that if they're really, really young, like baby stage and all that, like then they stay with mom.

Tina Wilston 28:56

Okay.

Renad Albar 28:57

Yeah. But it's it it it is always very complicated.

Tina Wilston 29:01

Okay.

Divorce, Co‑Parenting, And Child Well‑Being

Renad Albar 29:01

As to who, and regardless of sometimes the kids will go with the parent they should be with, there's still that animosity that ends up happening with divorce towards the parents where they become enemies more than co-parents. Right. And I find that co-parenting needs to be something we get better at. Right. Because the end of the day, you're you're two people who just didn't work out. And Islam preaches that where it's like if you guys came in together with respect, you guys should leave each other with that respect. But unfortunately, not the reality. Not the reality, right? Because people go with culture more than they do with religion.

Tina Wilston 29:43

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's interesting because I think that that's an important note of the role of sort of how how culture plays a role in marriage. And I actually would say that this is similar across both types of both individualistic and collectivist. Yeah. And because even in an individualistic culture, marriage is is almost treated where you have to torture yourself trying to make it work and only let it end if you absolutely cannot hold it together anymore. And I know that a lot of people have walked around with this false belief that it's best for the kids if you stay married. Yeah. Right. But what we know is that sort of number one is married and happy. And number two is divorced and happy. Right. Because at the end of the day, if you're unhappy, then how you are in the household, the tension that you might be creating, the exposure to arguments and fighting and all that type of stuff. And I think the greatest gift you can give to yourself, your partner, and your children is to go, we can just agree that we don't fit together. There's nothing wrong with you. There's nothing wrong with me. We we just don't actually fit together very well. And I want to stay respectful and I want to stay loving and I want to stay caring towards you. So the best way to do that is actually under separate roofs so that we can best. And that's where I've actually seen the most healthy um children reaction to divorce and separation is when the parents still get along. It's just that a lot of people are like, well, if we still get along, why can't we just stay married? And unfortunately, that is not reality. There's so many ways you could get along with someone under a different roof, right? Level of cleanliness is probably a good example, right? Whereas like we live together, and our definition of cleanliness is like night and day. We live under separate roofs. I don't care your socks are on the floor. I never see them.

Renad Albar 31:36

That kind of thing, right? That's so true. You even find that with friends that become roommates. A lot of friendships end. That's right. It's like we're so great together outside. Yeah. But once we lived under so many friendships end because of that. And I even find that like the parents, when they do make that huge sacrifice for their children and they're and they stay together, they end up sometimes resenting their children or they they they start to throw the sacrifices in their faces, like I did this and I did this for your happiness, but you weren't happy and your kids weren't happy. You're modeling a horrible relationship, then they grow up to think that that's normal.

Tina Wilston 32:18

Yeah.

Renad Albar 32:18

And they either implement it in a future relationship or they are scarred and they don't know what to do.

Sacrifice, Resentment, And Modelling Love

Tina Wilston 32:26

Yeah. And it's so unfair. I think that it's really um always unfair to say I sacrifice for you when the other person can easily come back and go, Who asked you to do that? I did not ask you to do that. So why do I have to even have a feeling of gratitude towards you for doing it when I wouldn't have wanted you, if I had a choice, I actually would have said, please don't do that. Don't sacrifice like that for me. That's not beneficial to me, right? So I think that that's a big separation as well. If I did all this for you and it's like, yeah, but I didn't ask I my my kids joke when they say it, but but but they'll say stuff like, Well, I didn't ask to be born, right? So like I didn't ask to get put into this position. You put me in this position. So now that you're asking this of me, I don't know that I want to give it to you, right? I actually think that's a fair response. Yeah.

Renad Albar 33:16

I do, I do think that's that there is a difference a little bit between like an individualistic versus a collectivistic culture in that. Okay. Whereas there is we believe that there's certain sacrifices that you have to return to your parents. That's a good point. Yes. Where it's like your parents raised you and they did all these things for you. And I know someone might be like, well, I was like, they'll joke and say, like, I wasn't asked to be born, or like, or they'll say things like that, or like, I didn't want all of these things. But like for us, we believe that you know, your parents raised you when you were a baby, you carry them when they're older.

Tina Wilston 33:53

Uh, yeah, that's a very good point. That is a big difference, isn't it?

Renad Albar 33:57

It is because a lot of times, like I know there's always this ongoing joke that I actually see on social media where people will be like, You're 18, you don't have to listen to your parents anymore. And then someone would be like, I'm I'm Arab or I'm Indian. That does not apply. There's no you can't listen to your parents. And people will think that, like, oh, but you're an adult. And I'm like, okay, but when does becoming adult mean I no longer take input from my parents and respect what they say? Right. In an individualistic culture. I know, I know. So it becomes that like um, it becomes a little bit uh like complicated because like you even mentioned, oh, if someone wants to stop, you know, uh stop like a certain um what's it called? Stop a uh like stop uh or change their major, right? They're like, oh, I don't want to do school anymore. I don't want to do they can't just make a life-changing decision like that. It's it's almost like you have to include your parents in it, yeah. Because we we don't believe that your life is just your life.

Tina Wilston 35:01

Yeah.

Renad Albar 35:01

And I actually find that to be interesting because so many people that I have seen now in therapy that come, that's the biggest thing that they lack. They lack a village, they like a community. But it's like if all your life you've been living me, me, me, yeah, then what you lose is your village. Yeah, yeah, you're not gonna get other people around you, and no one wants to also be a villager anymore, as well. Where you need to inconvenience yourself for other people. I get that your feelings and you know your health and all of that and your well-being are so important, and no one's saying don't consider them anymore. But these people care about you, and you need to also show that back. Yeah, you need to inconvenience yourself sometimes for the people you love.

Individualistic Vs Collectivist Expectations

Tina Wilston 35:46

Because we can't actually survive on our own, right? Like we we need other people. That's a that's a really, really good point. What's really funny, and this is where my mind goes. I feel like somewhere in the middle is probably ideal, yeah. But there's always that situation. So, because I go with what if the parents are really problematic, though, right? Or the family system is really, really toxic and problematic, and there's, you know, um then how do you navigate that? Because you want to be respectful at the same time. The people that are putting their expectations on you or or helping you or supporting you are not healthy people. And um I could see that being even harder to navigate because I think that healthy people are taking what's good for them and you into consideration and advising you and wanting for you what they feel like is actually both good for them and you. But a good example could be uh it's really good for me to have a doctor in the family, uh, but my child has a learning disability and struggles in school and putting that extra pressure on them and letting them know that my love is conditional upon them becoming a doctor, like that would be unhealthy, right? Versus that, hey, it's really important to us and the family and the name and all that to have a good profession. What is it that you feel like you're gravitate towards? Can we get you the supports that you need to do well in school? Can we do this in a way that's not harmful, right?

Renad Albar 37:18

Right, right.

Tina Wilston 37:19

So I feel like there's that middle, a middle ground somewhere there.

Renad Albar 37:22

No, for sure. And I and I think that there is a misconception as to um people's relationships with their parents, like in a collectivistic culture. And I'm also speaking on it from like an Islamic perspective more than a cultural one, yeah. Where if your parents are abusive or if they are very unhealthy to you to the point where it's causing you harm, you're no longer obligated to uphold um that same level. The respect should be there. Yeah, you should remain cordial, you should still like take care of them, but you're allowed to maintain boundaries. Okay. Right? Especially if they are being harmful to you. Right. Right? They're not, you know, the normal, healthy parents. Maybe there's a little bit of things there, but everybody has that with their family. Yeah. But if it's to the point where they are harming you, then no, like you are allowed to maintain boundaries and you do not have to necessarily listen to everything they tell you to do, especially if it's causing you harm, right?

Tina Wilston 38:22

Is that as strong culturally as it is religiously?

Renad Albar 38:24

Like you were saying before that sometimes like it might be in the on the religious side, but the culture doesn't necessarily I would say the culture wouldn't necessarily like uphold that as much. Okay. Um, but it's it's definitely, you know, an argument to be made. Right. Right.

Tina Wilston 38:43

Especially if it's not that black and white. It's not, it's not actually just they're your parents, doesn't matter how they treat you. No, doesn't matter.

Boundaries With Parents And Faith

Renad Albar 38:50

No, especially if you do go like the religious route and you talk about it through that way, and like this person has tried, yeah, they've they they wanted to get help, yeah, but nothing is working, and all that's left really is to create those boundaries because they are being harmed by their parents, right? And all you're really required to do is to remain cordial and be as respectful as you can be. Yeah. But um, yeah, that's like if someone was if the I I don't I don't even want to go like to the extremes because the extremes of things always like the met like they're the outlier. Yeah, exactly. Right. But like if I don't know, someone had a really terrible relationship with like their mother or their father growing up, and then they, you know, they were an absent parent for a very long time, right? It's very hard for that child to feel connected to that parent. It's very hard for me to want to get your opinion on things or even for you to have an input in my life. It's difficult because you weren't in it. Yeah, I can maintain a relationship with you out of you know, respect. Out of respect. And and we kind of do that with all family members where it's like it's it's really good to check on people, even if you don't have a relationship with them. Yeah, but you just maintain that level of respect, almost like just keeping that relationship a little bit alive because they were important to, I don't know, your grandma even. Right. Right, right. So you just do that for the sake of your grandparents or for the sake of your parents, not necessarily because you you know have a relationship with that person, but that would be the same thing, like you reach that point where you're just keeping that relationship alive out of you know respect and being cordial with that person. But is the relationship necessarily real? Yeah, no, but it exists, yeah, and I think that's where our culture really uh focuses on. Like that's where it needs to focus on. It's like, does the relationship exist? Okay. If it exists, it's okay. It's okay. But if it's like it's not there, it's like, oh my god. That's where the problem is. Yeah, like you have to talk to your mom, you have to talk to your dad. What do you mean you don't check up on like that's where it seriously is like it's a it's a big issue.

Tina Wilston 41:12

So I imagine it's a lot more common than in Western culture of like not talking to family members because I don't think the pressure is there the same way. Like in our culture? In like, no, sorry, in individualistic culture, the pressure isn't there the same way. So I imagine the like no contact is a lot in within families, is a lot higher.

Renad Albar 41:35

Yeah.

Tina Wilston 41:35

Yeah. Than it would be. Yeah, for sure. For sure. I think we have to wrap up just because of time. I feel like I could talk to you all day on this topic, but I want to thank you so much for taking the time to do this and give everybody a chance to get to know you a little bit better. Yeah. Um, and thank you.