S2 · Ep 5: Burnout — It Builds Slowly When Stress Never Ends | The MindSpa Podcast

Burnout doesn’t arrive all at once. For many people, it builds quietly over time when stress never fully turns off.

In this episode of The MindSpa Podcast, Tina Wilston and Michelle Massunken explore how burnout is showing up across industries, not just in traditionally high-pressure roles like health care or emergency services. With remote work, constant connectivity, and growing expectations to stay available, many people are now living with a level of chronic stress that the nervous system was never designed to sustain long-term.

Tina Wilston and Michelle Massunken break down the difference between stress and burnout in clear, practical terms. They discuss early warning signs that are often easy to dismiss, including brain fog, low focus, irritability, physical fatigue, and the subtle but important feeling of not quite being yourself. The conversation also explores sensory overload, and why small frustrations or everyday noise can feel overwhelming when your system is already depleted.

A key theme throughout this episode is normalization. When exhaustion becomes part of daily life, it can be difficult to recognize that something deeper is happening. Tina Wilston and Michelle Massunken reflect on how burnout can gradually become someone’s “new normal,” making it harder to step back and assess the full picture.

Listeners will also hear a practical workplace boundary strategy that can be applied immediately, using a priorities list to clarify expectations and reduce the pressure of everything feeling urgent at once. Beyond the workplace, the conversation expands to include how home responsibilities, financial strain, and even seasonal factors like Canadian winters can compound stress levels.

This episode also challenges common misconceptions about rest. Tina Wilston and Michelle Massunken highlight the difference between true rest and activities that may reduce stress but do not allow the nervous system to recover, such as catching up on chores or scrolling.

This is a grounded and practical conversation about burnout as a signal, not a failure, and an opportunity to better understand what your mind and body may be asking for.

The MindSpa Podcast

Thoughtful conversations about mental health, relationships, identity, healing, grounded in clinical expertise and steady human insight.

Hosts

Tina Wilston, M.Ed., Registered Psychotherapist 

Co-Owner, MindSpa Mental Health Centre

LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook

Michelle Massunken, MSW, RSW

Co-Owner, MindSpa Mental Health Centre

LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook

MindSpa Mental Health Centre

Ottawa - Kanata & Gloucester

themindspa.ca

LinkedIn, instagram

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Transcript

Michelle Massunken 0:00

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Why Burnout Feels Everywhere

Tina Wilston 0:12

Welcome back to the Mind Podcast. Today we are talking about burnout and how work is impacting mental health. This is a conversation many people are having right now for good reason. We'll explore the difference between stress and burnout, how work environments affect us, early warning signs, and how to reconnect with balance. And most importantly, we want to normalize this experience. So, Michelle, what are your thoughts? Why is burnout such a common topic right now?

Always On Tech And No Off Switch

Michelle Massunken 0:39

I feel like it's it's uh it's something that has been around for a very long time. Yeah, we've been experiencing burnout, we've dealt with burnout, but now we're at a point where similar to mental health in general, where people are more comfortable actually talking about it and then more comfortable acknowledging or admitting that they're feeling burned out or that they're getting to a point of being burnt out. And so I think it's something that is now coming to the forefront more so now, but has always kind of existed quietly in the background. And I think it's like work has changed too.

Tina Wilston 1:11

Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 1:11

Right? Like now it's I was just telling you the other day that it was so hard to feel to disconnect. Yeah. Because you were supposed to be off for a week last week. But exactly. But it's hard now, right? Because you have your phone, you have like Apple watches or laptops. It's so hard to disconnect in this day and age where you're so connected.

Tina Wilston 1:28

Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 1:28

And so to to get to a place where you can actually remove yourself from whatever the stressors are or slow down in the pace that allows you to regulate becomes more challenging. Um, so I think it's the way that our work environments are set up nowadays. I think it's a matter of like more awareness, people coming to the forefront and acknowledging it more.

Tina Wilston 1:48

Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 1:49

Um, those are things I think impact the conversations that we're having these days about burnout and why it's coming to the service more.

Tina Wilston 1:55

So what have you seen? Well, I feel like we regularly would talk about it in certain industries. So in the healthcare industry, nurses, doctors, it's high pace. The hours are really messed up. So we we were always really uh aware of it based on healthcare professionals and first responders. The other one, military, uh, obviously all the other police, fire. You expect a potential burnout in those work environments. And so I think that what's new, what's relatively new, is the fact that every industry is actually being affected by burnout anymore. And yeah, they're not exempt anymore. And I think that you're exactly right. It's that connection to technology. We can do our job from home. COVID showed us how many of our jobs that we can do from home. Yeah. And I know even for myself, it's like, and I know a lot of people feel this way. They think I'm gonna feel so overwhelmed if I go in Monday morning or I go in whichever morning to this crazy inbox and I'm gonna feel really behind the eight ball, and I'm not gonna feel confident going into my week. So people are like, I'll just stay plugged in. I'll just check it for a minute, I'll just do this, I'll just do that. And that just starts piling up. And like you said, you just never feel separate from it. You feel always on, it's always in the background. I think of like tabs open. Exactly. Yeah, all these different sort of tabs open in the background, and it's really hard to shut it down, and that's really not how we're designed from an evolutionary perspective. We are designed for like acute stress and then rest. Right. Acute stress and then rest.

Michelle Massunken 3:36

Yeah. And so without that, you're always your nervous system never really gets time to to regulate or to even slow down. Yeah. Um, and then the burnout happens, right? And I think sometimes we don't realize that the burnout is so gradual. It's not something that happens overnight.

Tina Wilston 3:52

Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 3:52

It's so gradual, it's progressive, it's slow and steady. Yeah. But it accumulates. Yeah. When the stresses are accumulating, then at some point we get to this point where we're feeling burnt out. Yeah. But it started with high levels of stress. Like you said, the acute, the acute levels, but never really coming down to a place of rest.

Tina Wilston 4:09

Yeah.

Stress Versus Burnout Over Time

Michelle Massunken 4:10

But staying there constantly and now to the point where you're feeling burnt out, or we're all feeling burnt out because of the stress levels have been constantly on this high level.

Tina Wilston 4:19

Yeah. And most of the symptoms I feel like can be explained away by other stuff so frequently. So, oh, I'm just tired. I didn't get a good night's sleep last night. Oh, I'm just uh I'm just um maybe just not feeling myself. I have a bit of brain fog. Some people might think, oh, it's just hormones. People might think it's I'm coming down with something. That's another thing, right? Because like it can be full body aches. Yeah. And you can think, oh, I'm just coming down with something. Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 4:51

I think that's what happens. That's why when I think about, okay, why do people overlook the early signs of burnout? I think it's because it's so subtle. Yeah. Right. Because it's so, it's so subtle. It's so, it's sometimes it's so part of our normal experience of like, oh, I just have a hard time concentrating, or I'm just feeling a little bit tired. I just need more coffee. Yes. And so because it's so subtle, we minimize it or we overlook it without realizing these are telltale signs that I probably want to lean into before it accumulates. But I think those are the early signs that we we notice, especially when it comes to like differentiating between stress and burnout.

Tina Wilston 5:28

Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 5:28

Right. And being able to kind of tell what the difference is and how do I know that I'm either just overwhelmed and stressed out or that I'm experiencing burnout. And I think it's those things. Like you said, the concentration piece changes. Um, or even just being able, even irritability, I think is something that I've seen a lot.

Tina Wilston 5:44

Yes. Where but again, there's lots of things that can make you irritable. So you don't necessarily realize, oh, this is burnout. Exactly.

Michelle Massunken 5:51

And that's why there's so much overlap, right, with the symptoms. Yeah. With trying to figure out what exactly is this that I'm experiencing. But I think the irritability is one of those early signs that I see a lot too, where things that again would never bother someone all of a sudden, you know, they're short fuse about it or they're having a hard time tolerating it the way that they used to. But I think it's early signs that often lead us away from actually being proactive about it and more so just kind of leaning into what needs to be done with the burnout.

Tina Wilston 6:20

Is that how you think like when I think of it, the way that I differentiate the two in my mind is the chronic nature of it. That burnout is chronic stress that's having the symptoms become more chronic. Yeah. Whereas stress, it's like I feel that way in a moment, a day or two, but then my body regulates again. Yeah. Everything sort of goes back to normal for a lengthy period of time, if that makes sense. It wouldn't be just like one day I feel fine, next day, I don't feel okay. One day I feel fine, next day I don't feel okay. It'd be more like I don't feel fine for a day or two, then I feel fine for like a week. Exactly. Yeah. Maybe I don't feel with stress. With stress, with chronic or with burnout, it is that more chronic, it is I don't remember the last time I woke up feeling refreshed. That's actually another reason why I think that people don't realize that's what's happening. Yeah. Is it almost becomes their norm.

Michelle Massunken 7:12

Yeah, very quickly too.

Tina Wilston 7:14

Yeah, they can't actually remember waking up feeling any different. Yeah. And so they're like, oh, this is just my new normal. Because also as we age, there are certain things you're like, oh, is this just my new normal? Exactly. Right. It's just part of aging.

Michelle Massunken 7:25

Or is this, yeah, I definitely see it that way where the burnout is more chronic. Yeah. Whereas stress is more just like I'm feeling overwhelmed by the level of responsibilities that I have coming my way. Um and I'm having a hard time moving forward with that. Whereas burnout, it's like I can't even move forward. Yeah. Like I I can't, the motivation is decreased, the energy levels have decreased. I'm not able to even move forward despite the responsibilities. And so definitely seeing it as more chronic stress, the buildup of stress leading to the burnout.

Tina Wilston 7:57

And then back to why is it talked about more or why is it happening more is because the work stress is more chronic now. Yeah. We aren't having these like moments of stress, and then everything is kind of status quo for a little bit. It's like everything's ever changing. Yeah.

Subtle Warning Signs We Explain Away

Michelle Massunken 8:12

Yeah. I think people are almost like it's, I think it's the boundary piece too, right? Where it becomes harder for people to feel comfortable setting the boundaries when it comes to the work environment or even when it comes to things that are contributing to their stressors. Yeah. You know, and so if leading to burnout meant that I'm always having to be on and having to be available, then that gets seemingly gets rewarded. And so I maintain that continuously without recognizing what that impact is having. And so the work environment for sure can be contributing, I think, in a lot of ways, people don't realize and not realizing uh the role that that plays or how to change behavior. Yeah. Once they do burn out.

A Clear Work Boundary Script

Tina Wilston 8:52

Yeah. You want to know my favorite strategy for um boundaries at work. That's your favorite strategy. When I'm working with someone and they're telling me I have this boss that just keeps giving me more and more work and I can't possibly get it done, I recommend to them to write an actual priorities list. And then whenever the manager sends them, either verbally tells them or sends them an email, adding something else to their list, I say, what you do is you send the list back with the item and you say, Can you please place this in order of priority so that I know if you want this done before these other things you've already asked me to do or afterwards. Because actually as leaders, we know that sometimes we don't know all the stuff that we've passed down and we don't know what's still pending and how much work there needs to be done. So I actually appre would appreciate that because then I'd be able to go, actually, yeah, put that number one. All that other stuff can wait. Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 9:48

Yeah.

Tina Wilston 9:48

And and a manager who's a little bit, let's go with like less generous, might it just shows them though, it reflects back to them, these are all the things that you've asked me to do in the last week. Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 10:00

Because they probably don't know. They're just firing off tests and to-do lists. And in their mind, everything is top priority. Yeah. But you also want to make sure that you're prioritizing it and setting that clear boundary, right? So I like that. Just being able to push, not push back, but also just get some feedback. Yeah.

Tina Wilston 10:14

Because if everything's a priority, nothing's a priority. And now I'm sitting there worried about I didn't get this done, even though I got these, let's say, top three things done. I didn't get these other things done. And my boss is telling me they're all a priority. Well, there's this reflection back to them of six things you gave me, I got three done. You told me these were the top three. Yeah. So now you have to accept the other three are not getting done, and you have to accept some responsibility, or you give it to someone else to do or whatever it is. That's my favorite. I like that. It's not possible. Some people have described it, I don't think it's passive aggressive because I'm truly asking you where it's going to be where we put it. I just want to know am I dropping all this stuff to do this? I feel like we do that.

Michelle Massunken 10:55

I feel like it's assertive. It's saying, like, you're I want my priorities to be your priorities. Yeah. But right now, these are all priorities. And so let's strategize together so that you can feel as if you've gotten what you needed. And I can feel as if I've met the needs in the same way too, right? I think it's an assertive approach more than anything.

Tina Wilston 11:12

Well, and that's the really important part because I think part of what the burnout is, is the person who's like, I was supposed to get all six of those things done. I didn't get those six things done. I'm going to be held accountable for this tomorrow. And they're carrying all that worry. Meanwhile, what we've seen or what I see all the time is if you are that miraculous person who has nothing else going on and you get all six of those done, there will be a new six for you tomorrow and the next day and the next day. Most of our jobs don't have this like neat and tidy endpoint, you're done.

Michelle Massunken 11:43

There's always gonna be things to be done. There's always gonna be things. Yeah. And so that's why that I think that's when you think about like how do we even prevent burnout? Because I find that burnout can be like cyclical, right? Where it's like I go to this burnout stage and then I recover, and then I find a Mine's Christmas time. Just before Christmas time.

Tina Wilston 12:00

I'm like, right. Oh my gosh, I'm dying.

Cycles Of Burnout And Behaviour Patterns

Michelle Massunken 12:02

Right. Yeah. So it almost comes in in waves and comes in cycles. I think one of the ways to disrupt that cycle is being able to attend to what the behavior is. Yeah. Like, are there certain patterns that I'm doing that I haven't shifted and that allows this to almost be predictable?

Tina Wilston 12:19

Right.

Michelle Massunken 12:19

Where I know that at this point in time or at this season or in this month, I'm gonna start to feel that level of overwhelm. I'm gonna start to feel like I'm drowning in all of the tasks and responsibilities. And so I think one of the ways we can look towards preventing burnout is by looking at our behavior, right? What are the things that we're doing? Are they the same? Or am I setting new boundaries? Because the ones that I had before perhaps worked in a different environment, different setting. Yeah. But now I have to adjust it differently.

Tina Wilston 12:47

Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 12:47

You know, and how do I make those changes so that I don't find myself repeating the same feeling that I get when the burnout takes effect?

Work Plus Home Pressures Collide

Tina Wilston 12:55

Yeah, absolutely. Because we know that the weather here in Canada affects things. So a lot of people that have the energy to produce at a certain level through spring, summer, fall, they're still trying to produce at that level in the winter, yet they're being impacted really differently. Yeah. And for us, that's been chronic this year with like it starting in November and now it's March, and we're still staying at the heart of this winter. Now, something we haven't talked a lot at all about is actually this combination of we're talking about the workplace, but home environment. You throw actually the home environment side of things. So, what are you seeing in your practice on what people are bringing into therapy on the things in that combo work home front that you think is leading to burnout?

Michelle Massunken 13:40

Yeah, I think it it sort of compounds in a lot of ways because there are still demands at home. You know, there are still demands when it comes to the family, and when it comes to the kids, when it comes to all the different stressors, whether it's like health or finances or things of those natures that are separate than the work environment. But I think it's and for many folks that there might have been like a sense of reprieve in one environment over the other. Whereas now in each environment, there are stressors that can compound and lead to that burnout. And so I think that that's what we're seeing a lot now where we're almost having to be intentional about how does that, how do we even create those moments? Because there are demands, yeah, whether we're at home or whether we're at work. And those demands require something from us. They require our attention. And so to be able to balance that requires back to the boundary piece, right? What does that look like in the different environments? But I think it's no longer um, especially for those who are working from home, I think is that a big factor.

Tina Wilston 14:49

Yeah, there's no barrier.

Michelle Massunken 14:50

There is none.

Why Rest Beats Vacation

Tina Wilston 14:51

Yeah, you know, and so whether it's there's not even that wind down time of driving, although I mean a bunch of people are gonna be forced back into the work environment. It's changing, yeah. And that is changing here in Ottawa, but then there's there's a price to pay for that as well because that's less work-life balance. Right. Which we know is a big contributing factor as well. Yeah. I think one of the thoughts that comes to mind for me is the role of the economy as well, because we often have two working parents, those two incomes are just covering the bills. Right. Whereas I do think in previous times, if you had two working parents, they'd potentially have a house cleaner then. So then they could at least take that off their off their hands, right? Or they could eat out at restaurants, they could just go out for dinner a bit more, maybe order in a bit more because things have been really busy and that takes something off their plate. But it just feels like there's also a lot of people are strapped financially that they can't pay for a vacation to unwind. Cause I don't know about you, but whenever I do a staycation, all that happens, I just get more stuff done around the house, which feels really good. It feels good and it does relieve a bit of stress. Yeah. But at the same time, I'm like, I don't feel rested, yeah, though. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And and maybe that's a thing, right? Is people are doing a lot of behaviors that reduce their stress, but aren't restful. Exactly that.

Michelle Massunken 16:11

And so that tells us then that even a vacation doesn't cure burnout. No, right? A vacation does not know. Because you can be on a vacation and it could still be as stressful, it could still be as demanding of your time. Case in point. You know, and so I think to your point, rest is really what is needed. Yeah. Whether that's here or there or anywhere, it's being able to find yourself in a place of rest. And what does our nervous system need when it gets to the point of being burnt out? It needs to be able to like slow down. Yes. You know, and just be bored. Yeah. Just have one of those things. That's a weird concept these days, though, isn't it? Be bored. We're still used to just having to be productive and busy and doing and going. And yeah. But sometimes we're scrolling to or scrolling. Which is not restful.

Tina Wilston 16:55

No. That's false rest. Right. That's fake rest.

Michelle Massunken 16:58

We don't want that kind of rest. No, we want the real one. And so that's one of the most important things I think that we can do in a society where we're feeling so burnt out is just make room for rest and embrace rest, I think, too. And and not feel the urgency to be busy, or the urgency to have something in your hand or to be doing something or moving. But I think rest, whether again, that's a vacation or a staycation, but rest is going to be the most important.

Tina Wilston 17:24

Don't catch up on all the stuff that you haven't gotten done around the house.

Michelle Massunken 17:27

That's not that's not restful.

Burnout Is Real And Looks Different

Tina Wilston 17:29

That is not restful. Okay, what are your thoughts about the people out there that are saying burnout's not real? What are your thoughts?

Michelle Massunken 17:37

I mean, we know that it is.

Tina Wilston 17:39

Yep. It's as factually false.

Michelle Massunken 17:42

Yeah. We know that it is. We know that it's it's as real as the stressors that we're experiencing. And we know that burnout is accumulation of the stressors. And so it's it's very real. We experience it. Sometimes we can mask it though, what which is what gets again coffee. Yeah. We can mask it whether it's uh through coffee, whether it's through our mood shifting, um, whether it's through showing up as like concentration or focus issues, it shows up differently for everyone. I think that's probably part of the reason why people can dismiss burnout or minimize burnout because they don't they don't see it as being what it is, right? They can classify it as something else, but burnout is very real. Um it's a reflection of of the stresses that we've been experiencing for a prolonged period of time.

Step Back To See The Full Load

Tina Wilston 18:24

Yeah. Yeah. So if so if someone is sort of noticing that they're don't feel themselves, right? I feel like that's a big part of burnout, is you just generally no longer feel like yourself. Yeah. Odds are you're noticing that information is not processing the same way in your mind. So that can show up as concentration, focus. But I find too, burnout for me can sometimes present in this my senses get overwhelmed easily. So personally, on a normal day, I can process information. Something's loud around me, it's not particularly distracting, it's not particularly bothersome. Right. But like I always know at the dinner table where I'm like, everyone needs to just it's so loud in here. I'm like, shh shiterally while I'm like, okay, just one at a time, please. You know, but I also find that, yeah, that internal irritability you notice. This is I I've seen a few a few TikToks or I'm actually not a TikTok, but like Instagram reels or whatever, where it's like, why is the sound of my husband chewing making me rage right now? Right? That can be a sign the the all the senses, right? If those feel affected, definitely feeling more tired, less energy, less motivation is very, and again, prolonged, right? So everybody needs to understand that these are prolonged experiences of this. And it's good to take that assessment of what is stressing me, what what are all the stressors that I'm experiencing right now? Because I think sometimes when we step out and look at the big picture of our lives, very often we can be like, oh, I get it. Right. Now I see why I'm so tired. When we live our life minute by minute, we become very blind to a lot of the of what's going on with us. But when we step back and look at it, it becomes often a lot clearer. Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 20:24

What do you think gets in the way of us being able to do that? Like to have that like step back and take that perspective and just kind of like assess all the things that are happening. Because it's it's like I feel like we we get so engulfed in.

Tina Wilston 20:37

We do. Yeah. Right.

Michelle Massunken 20:38

And so very rarely do we give ourselves that moment to pause and to step outside and kind of reflect or assess and recognize, okay, I do have a lot going on. Like the way that I'm feeling actually makes sense considering everything that's on my plate. But I feel like that's a hard concept for many of us to do, just to take that moment of pause.

Tina Wilston 20:56

Well, I actually think that is again it is part of the problem is nobody's bored anymore. Nobody has any space to be bored. That's the time we used to do it. It's like, hmm, I've seen this episode of Golden Girls already. I was watching the rest of the day because I was like bored. But I like I've, you know, I I have nothing to do. I have nothing to scroll on because I don't have a phone back in the day, right? And those are the times that we were more likely to step back. Feeling everybody's feeling their life and their times like up to the last minute, even bedtime, which we're gonna talk about later. But a lot of people literally maybe they used to do it when they were falling asleep, those 10-15 minutes if it takes to fall asleep. People don't do they scroll right up till they can't open their eyes anymore and then they pass out.

Michelle Massunken 21:45

There's no space. There's no space like that. And that's so true. And without that space, there's no pause. And without the pause, there's no reflection.

Tina Wilston 21:51

Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 21:51

And so we need to create more space for that in so many ways. Otherwise, we're gonna be a burnt out society. Yep. Right? Because it's sure there's always something to do.

Tina Wilston 22:01

Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 22:01

There's always something to do.

When Therapy Becomes The Support

Tina Wilston 22:02

We can fill our time. Yeah. Now, okay, so uh final note how will people know that therapy is what they would need for? Burnout at this point. Like at what point? What happens to go? I think therapy is what I need for this.

Michelle Massunken 22:20

I mean, I think therapy, I think there's no wrong time for therapy. I think you can always be proactive and seek support when you are feeling even just the stress level, not even getting to the burnt out level. Yeah. But even when you're at that stress level, I think that's even a good time to just come in and explore stress management techniques, explore prioritizing strategies and different ways to manage the stress before it gets to burnout. Uh, but if you've reached the point of burnout, I think it's a matter of like looking at the intensity of your experiences and the duration of your experiences. You know, has this level of irritability been prolonged and is it impacting how I interact with my family members or how they interact with me? Is this going to affect not just me, but even those around me? And so I think that regards whether you're at that burnout stage or you're approaching it because you're overwhelmed and you're stressed out, I think it's always a great opportunity to just pause. Yeah. You know, take a moment and pause and reflect and explore. Okay, what do what all do I have on my plate? How am I managing it? How am I doing with all of this? And are there things that I need to now prioritize or take off of my plate? And so um I think if you're feeling the stress levels of things and you recognize that you're moving towards burnout and feeling overwhelmed, that's a good time. If you're already there, that's a great time.

Tina Wilston 23:36

Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 23:37

Um, but I think there's always room for support proactively.

Tina Wilston 23:40

Yeah. Cause I feel like therapy is the space too that you creates that step backwards. Definitely. That is a big thing that we do in therapy is like, let's look at your life in that bigger picture. Let's try to understand it. Let's see what can give. Yeah. My favorite is the to don't list.

Michelle Massunken 23:56

Oh, I need one of those.

Burnout Is A Signal Not Failure

Tina Wilston 23:58

Yeah, I'm no longer gonna prioritize this. This is not a season in my life in which this is a priority because it adds way much, way too much to an already overfilled plate. Yeah. I like that. Great chat on burnout. I hope the listeners got a little something from it. Absolutely. If you're listening right now and feeling overwhelmed or close to burnout, here's what I want you to know burnout does not mean you failed. It's a signal, a sign that something needs attention and care.