S2 · Ep 11: Belonging — What If It Is Something You Build? | Yocabed Semere | The MindSpa Podcast

In this episode of The MindSpa Podcast, Michelle Massunken sits down with Yocabed Semere to explore identity, belonging, and the emotional tension many people in immigrant and diaspora communities experience while navigating multiple cultures, expectations, and values. The conversation reflects on how cultural identity, family pressure, and lived experience can shape mental health, relationships, and self-understanding.

Yocabed shares her personal journey from Eritrea to Uganda and later to Canada, while also reflecting on what she now sees clinically in her work supporting immigrant youth and young adults. Together, Michelle and Yocabed discuss the “diaspora pull” — the experience of feeling caught between cultures while trying to understand where you belong and how to remain connected to both yourself and your community.

The episode explores topics including acculturative stress, code-switching, perfectionism, people-pleasing, anxiety, burnout, and the pressure that can come from balancing personal values with cultural and family expectations. The conversation also looks at mental health stigma within many Black and immigrant communities, and how therapy can create space for reflection, self-compassion, and healthier boundaries without disconnecting from culture or family identity.

Rather than framing identity as an all-or-nothing experience, Michelle and Yocabed discuss the possibility of cultural integration — taking meaningful parts of multiple cultures and building a life that aligns more closely with personal values, emotional wellbeing, and connection.

Yocabed Semere is a Registered Psychotherapist (Qualifying) at MindSpa Mental Health, supporting adults navigating anxiety, burnout, emotional regulation, perfectionism, identity challenges, and life transitions. Her approach is culturally informed and grounded in evidence-based therapies including CBT, ACT, DBT, and Solution-Focused Therapy. Yocabed holds a Bachelor of Science in Psychology from Carleton University and a Master of Arts in Counselling Psychology from Yorkville University. 

Connect With Yocabed Semere

Website | Psychology Today |LinkedIn 

The MindSpa Podcast

Thoughtful conversations about mental health, relationships, identity, healing, grounded in clinical expertise and steady human insight.

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Tina Wilston, M.Ed., Registered Psychotherapist 

Co-Owner, MindSpa Mental Health Centre

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Michelle Massunken, MSW, RSW

Co-Owner, MindSpa Mental Health Centre

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MindSpa Mental Health Centre

Ottawa - Kanata & Gloucester

themindspa.ca

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Transcript

Welcome And Why This Matters

Michelle Massunken 0:02

Welcome back to another episode of The MindSpa Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Massunken, and today we are joined by Yocabed, who is one of our clinicians here at The MindSpa. We're talking about a very important topic, which we don't often talk about, but it's looking at the diaspora pull and looking at the mental health supports involved and around immigration families. And so, Yocabed, thank you for joining us today.

Yocabed Semere 0:28

Thank you for having me. What an honour to be here.

Michelle Massunken 0:31

Ah, thank you. I'm looking forward to our conversation today. I think it's uh it's an important one. And I think it's always helpful and it's a different perspective when what you're talking about isn't just what you practice from a clinical perspective, but also a lived experience perspective. I think that personal and professional piece add a different element to the work that we do when we can actually relate to clients based on what we've actually experienced personally. And so I think that's going to be a great conversation for us this afternoon.

Yocabed Semere 0:58

I agree. There's a deeper understanding of the true intimate client experience. And I'm excited to share that. And this is something I talk about with a lot of clients and I have experience too. And so I know both sides of like what it feels like to be on the client side and that experience, but also on the therapist end now of that. Right. So you carry that dual perspective, right?

Michelle Massunken 1:17

Which is the vantage point for you. Exactly. Yeah. Why don't you start by telling us a little bit about you? Like tell us first of all how your clinical journey has brought come to being. But before that piece, tell us a bit about your background and how that also has evolved into where you are right now.

Yocabed Semere 1:32

Yeah. So

From Eritrea To Canada To Therapy

Yocabed Semere 1:33

I'm Eritrean. Um born there. I left when I was five. My mom immigrated to and left to Uganda. Okay. And we lived there for about seven and a half years. And so up until the age of 11, I was there. And then I moved to Canada and I've been here ever since I was 12 years old. And that was a long journey, right? From one country to another. My mom was a single mom. And so she did the best she could with me and my brother. Okay. And so we were all like very, very close. Yeah. And so I got to see that experience of living in a country that's my country, right? My Eritrean heritage, to then go into Uganda and then suddenly learning to be a part of a culture that wasn't mine and integrating myself at such a young age. And then coming to Canada and then having to redo all of that again was such a new experience for me and brought so many joys, but also so many challenges and so many struggles. But you know, it never was, I never grew up saying I'm going to be a therapist. And so I didn't even probably know what that was until age 16, where someone said, you know, you should try therapy. Like me talk to somebody. No, I would never do that. And you know, in our family, it was very much stigmatized. Mental health was not a real thing. Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 2:43

Still not talked about as very limited awareness in the black community.

Yocabed Semere 2:48

Exactly. And that's part of my goal is to break that stigma now. And it starts with my own family. Yeah. And so, very young age, I decided to go to school. That was the best thing to do, right? You go to school, get good grades, and your family gives you three options doctor, lawyer, or engineer.

Michelle Massunken 3:04

Exactly.

Yocabed Semere 3:04

Right. And so for me, it's like, okay, I turned 18, I'm picking my universities. Like, of course I'm going to be a doctor. That makes me, I thought that would make me look so cool. Imagine saying you're a doctor, right? And so I picked health sciences and very early on. I'm talking a first day, first year, first chem class. Immediately knew that was not for me. But I had the pressure of my family saying, Hey, you gotta be a doctor. You know the options. Exactly. What else am I gonna do? A lawyer or an engineer, right? And in my head, engineering was for the boys. Okay. And lawyer, too much arguing. Right. And so I had one option. So I chose to major in biomedical sciences. Okay. And the second year, I was like, I cannot do this. This is miserable. I'm miserable. And I was getting good grades. And so in my family's eyes, what do you mean? You're getting good grades. This is amazing. Yeah. And so I went to my academic advisor and I said, listen, I cannot be here anymore.

Michelle Massunken 3:57

Yeah.

Yocabed Semere 3:58

And we talked and she said, you know, it sounds like you know what you want. And I remember thinking, no, I don't know what I want. Yes, help me out. And so she says, like, it sounds like you want psychology because you keep talking about the humans. You keep talking about human behaviour and the human mind. And so, is that what you enjoyed? Did you enjoy your first psych class? And I remember thinking, yeah, I actually really did. Right. And so I went and I switched over to psych. Okay. And I loved it.

Michelle Massunken 4:24

Yeah.

Yocabed Semere 4:24

And I enjoyed it so much. And I was so thankful. And then I graduated, but again, therapist was never an option for me. Yeah. And so I remember hitting what I call a pre-quarter life crisis at the ripe age of like 21.

Michelle Massunken 4:37

And so quite an early.

Yocabed Semere 4:38

Yeah, I don't know what I'm gonna do with my life. And I went to my friend's house. We went, um, we're watching a movie in the basement, and I remember thinking, um, what am I gonna do with my life? And she said, you know, you should become a therapist. And I laughed because I thought she was joking, but she was serious. And I remember telling her, like, asking why, what do you think I'd make a good therapist? And she said, you know, you're a great listener, and I think that, you know, you've listened to me all through the years, and you've been very helpful, and I think you could help a lot of people. And so that kind of was that first seedling that was there and that first spark.

Michelle Massunken 5:09

Yeah.

Yocabed Semere 5:10

And I remember thinking, I will apply after my fourth year university, I'll apply. And if I get in, that's a sign to me. And then I got in and I was still hesitant, and I thought, okay, if I like the first class, I will continue on. And all of a sudden, here we are. Yeah. And I don't regret this at all. Oh, that's awesome. Been such an honour to be a therapist and walk alongside people in their journey of life.

Michelle Massunken 5:35

Oh, that's beautiful. I love that. It's it truly is an honour and a privilege when you think about it, right? That you can get into such deep conversations and the trust is there and it's been established and been built. And yeah, it's an honour on some levels.

Yocabed Semere 5:47

Yeah, and to have people open up and be vulnerable about such an intimate part of their lives, right? We spend such a big part of the sessions talking about these patterns from childhoods, these experiences of the culture piece as well. And when that comes up and you notice that the tension and the challenges that these clients are carrying. And so for them to be able to share that with me as a clinician is it is an honour.

Michelle Massunken 6:10

Talk to me a little bit more about

Diaspora Pull And Identity Confusion

Michelle Massunken 6:12

that. So the culture piece. You've seen it in your work where there is this what we look at as a diaspora pull. Yeah. Where there's this conflict of two cultures, right? There's this pull which you experienced perhaps when you went to Uganda and then re-experienced when you came to Canada as well. Uh, what is that navigating? What is navigating that diaspora pull like for an individual, whether as a client or even in your own lived experience? So what we look at as the a culture of stress, right? Where you're there's two cultures at play, both vying for attention in some ways, um, but you're navigating it in systems that don't always understand the way that each culture has its space. And so, what have you noticed in terms of what that brings up for your individuals that you work with, or what it brought up for you navigating that space? Yeah.

Yocabed Semere 7:01

So when we say diaspora, it's the spreading out of people from their original homeland, right? And so we talk about practical challenges like finances, transportation, and the stress that comes with that and leaving your homeland, right? And I think of like my mom's own experience of being a single mom and leaving the country with two kids, and you have political stuff that comes in as well, right? There's countries with different rules. And in my own experience, it was like you can't leave at the age of five, and I had just turned five. So it's like you might have to leave a certain kid behind, right? So once you've dealt with all of that, and now you you move into, you know, most times it's the Western culture. And what we see in the kids, the young adults that I work often with is this you're never a hundred percent from your homeland culture. You're not fully, that identity is not fully there, but that identity is also not fully a hundred percent in this Western culture. And it's this phenomenon of what I like to call in "no man's land". You're just kind of in that middle and you look to the side, you're not part of them, but you look to the side and you're not part of them. And so you're asking yourself, like, where do I belong? So the sense of belonging is not there. That extreme sense of loneliness, of like, man, who are my people? Right. And so that can bring up an identity confusion of like who am I without being a hundred percent part of my family, because they're telling me in all the ways that I'm falling short, right? That I don't meet their expectations, and then you're on this part of the Western culture, and you're not fully like individualistic, because then what does that bring up? That guilt of like, hey, I have to choose myself. Yeah, my family just taught me for many, many years that if I put myself first, then I'm selfish, right? And also I owe it to my family to to do well, to be well, and to make them proud, right? Because look, they've given up so much for me. And that financial part of it too is so to go and be successful. And so it's this internal tension of you just cannot figure out where you you belong. And it can be exhausting, but also I think of it’s the code-switching, right? And so you look to this culture, like the Western culture, you're like, okay, I have to remember, I have to be individualistic, and I I'm part of my people here. And so you you do that, yeah, and then you go home and code switch. You have to switch to, okay, my family can't dress like this, I can't talk like this, I have to behave a certain way, I have to make my parents proud, I have to, you know, serve food at family functions, or if you're a woman, that brings up a whole set of challenges, like you have to be cooking in the kitchen, helping, you know, guests around. And if they ask you what you're doing, you better be doctor, engineer, or a lawyer. Because if you choose anything else, then you've disappointed your family, which is what happened for me. It's like when I switched to psych, I could not say I switched to psych for a very long time because I knew the connotation that came with that. And I was like, oh, psych is so easy. Right. Why did you, why did you switch to that? And so for a long time I had to remember code switch. Okay. We're part of the family, we're at an event, you're health sciences. But with my friends, I could be a little bit more open and say, hey, I'm saying it's exhausting and it leads to a lot of identity confusion within a lot of clients, I find as well. Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 10:13

That's such a good point. I feel like I can I can definitely relate to that. My background is Ghanaian, so I'm West African. And so there are cultural expectations. Yes. Right? There are cultural expectations that are uh set from the very beginning of what is expected, whether it's education-wise, whether it's even mannerism or how you behave. But then there's also others that sometimes conflict um with Western culture pieces, right? But just trying to navigate those pieces, it's a balancing act in a lot of ways, and just trying to find out what belongs where and how to navigate those pieces can be quite challenging. It is. Um, and I think you you alluded to it earlier when it came to uh I owe it to my family. I want you to expand on what you mean by that and what that looks like in the context of the African culture versus like the Western culture and how that again can conflict in a lot of ways for individuals.

Yocabed Semere 11:03

Yeah.

Family Duty Versus Personal Values

Yocabed Semere 11:04

So we have the individualistic side of the Western culture, which is you do you. You know, what is what do you want? Right. What brings you joy, what brings you happiness? And we have the homeland culture, which is no, what what brings our family happiness. And so we have that collectivist part of it. It's like it's a we, right. It's one for all and all for one. And so what you do is a representation of your family. And so it's this pull again. It's like you can't you can't choose because either way you choose the Western culture, then your family's telling you you're selfish.

Michelle Massunken 11:39

Right.

Yocabed Semere 11:39

And if you choose the homeland culture, then your friends are, you know, in the Western culture will say, Well, do what makes you happy. But either way, it’s lose-lose. If you do what makes you happy, then your family's not going to be happy. And if you do what your friends want of you and what to do for yourself, it's it's a either way to lose-lose. It's hard. And so with clients, oftentimes I say it sounds like an impossible situation either way.

Michelle Massunken 12:04

Yeah.

Yocabed Semere 12:04

And it sounds like it's hard either way. So which heart are we going to choose? And I find that has a lot of breakthrough with with clients and with that success of the of like what your family wants and you're indebted to them. It comes with your family gave up a lot again. Yeah. Right? They have moved their whole lives for you. This is the least you could do, right? And so this is it's said as if like they don't even are not asking of something too big, they're just asking that you pick one of those three options.

Michelle Massunken 12:38

Simple options here. We're not asking for a lot, right?

Yocabed Semere 12:40

Exactly. You get married at a certain age, you have kids a certain age. Yeah. And if you even so much as say, I don't want kids, now it's a whole thing, right? If you don't want to get married, now that's a whole thing. But this culture and the Western culture is saying, hey, you don't want to get married, that's completely fine, right? And it's it's really difficult and it leads to a lot of identity confusion with with clients. Um, and it did with myself as well, because what do you do when it both options lead to some sort of challenge from both sides? Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 13:13

A couple stats that I I want to mention here, which line up with what you're talking about. So research shows that bicultural individuals experience higher acculturative stress when cultural values conflict, especially in early adulthood. Acculturative stress, so again, the tugging of two cultures, has been linked to increased anxiety, depressive symptoms, and emotional exhaustion in immigrant youth and young adults. So the stats are telling us that it's impacting, right? It's not just based on anecdotes or hearsay. Like the stats tell us that these things can have an impact. Yeah. And so, how do we navigate those pieces, right? And you lived it, you experienced it where you knew that, okay, certain things can't be said to certain groups. Yeah. I have to sort of make sure that I know my audience in terms of what I'm saying. Um, but how did you navigate even the impact that it had on your own mental health? Like the stress of, okay, is this going to be disappointing to my mom who has sacrificed time and time again, or my extended family, or those involved? Like how would you how do you work with that?

Yocabed Semere 14:15

Yeah. So first is normalizing that this is a real thing. Yeah. Right. And when so a client is saying, I have I'm struggling with anxiety and I'm I'm depressed and I have so much stress, I'm burnt out from the code switching. It's validating that that is a real thing and that it is the cause is caused by that acculturative.

Michelle Massunken 14:37

Sound good.

Yocabed Semere 14:38

Yeah, it is called. We're not live, so you're fine. Yeah. Um, but that anxiety and that depression is caused by that stress of constantly moving. And I did experience that. That um that anxiety is something I struggled a lot. And I started experiencing panic attacks at a really young age. And I remember my mom's favorite thing, I love her for this, and she's come a long way now. But her favorite thing to say to me is like, what are they gonna eat you? Like, if you like speak to them. And so for a long time I thought, hey, like maybe it's something wrong with me because I can't seem to figure it out.

Michelle Massunken 15:08

And everything's like, would she know? Like, were you honest with her about where you're at? And it's just more so the extended family that had the pressures, or was it both mom and like the uncles and everybody else that were like, you need to go and be a doctor?

Yocabed Semere 15:20

So it was an unspoken thing from the extended family, but I didn't even know, I didn't even apply to anything else because it was never an option, right? Yeah. So indirectly it was there, and with my mom, it was never like, hey, you can't be that. Yeah, but it's like these are three options you can be. And so indirectly, I knew that that's what she was talking about. And so even with my own mental health, I couldn't really speak up about it. The only reason that she was able to know is because I I was struggling at school with panic attacks during presentations, and she would get calls and I would let her know like I wasn't able to present today. And so, with clients even understanding that that is a real thing, and that that burnout that comes from trying to meet those parents' expectations and family's expectations. And what I find a lot is with clients who are trying really hard to make their parents happy will never feel like they're good enough. And they will feel like they're always falling short because even if they do meet the next expectation, there's always another another expectation, right? For my own personal example, a couple days ago, you know, talking about finishing my master's and all of this, my mom's like one's PhD. Right, right. It's like, whoa, I didn't even get a chance to like take a second, but it's always the next thing, right? After that, it's when you get married, yeah. And you're having kids. When the next kid, yeah, the next guy. Yeah. And so with clients, I find the big kind of impact or that shift is realizing that because both choices are hard, yeah, you can choose your hard, and sometimes it's not black and white, and it's not you could 100% this or 100% that. And I say, what would 50-50 look like? What if we took parts of this culture that we love and took it into integrated into our own lives? And we took part of that culture, the Western culture, and integrated into our own lives. And I find that that shift makes a big impact and that reframe. Yeah. And what I love and what's so beautiful about all of this, it's so different for every client, right? I'll spend a session about a client who's like, I want to be a stay-home mom, I want to cook, I want to clean, I want to be raising the kids, and I'll say, amazing. Yeah, that is perfect. So what are we making for dinner? Right. But with a next client, it will be, I do not want any part of that. Perfect. I never want to step foot in the kitchen, I never want to do this. It's like amazing. Yeah. What do we want?

Michelle Massunken 17:37

Yeah.

Yocabed Semere 17:37

Right. What parts of the culture of each culture integrates and what part of it is aligning with our values? Yeah. Because we know that when we live out of alignment with our values is when we have that distress happen. And so that I find to be really helpful for clients and also acknowledging that that's not going to be easy. No. Because somebody's going to be unhappy, right? Because you can't take half and half.

Michelle Massunken 18:00

Yeah.

Yocabed Semere 18:00

Because they've told you you have to be a hundred percent here. Right. But choosing to go against the current is tough, but also it's worth it. Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 18:11

I love that. I feel like that's such a beautiful um way to put it, right? When you think about again, the dice were a pull, where it literally is that you're being pulled in different directions. And so, how do I take parts of my experiences and create a culture that fits for me? Yeah. And I think about that in my own experience. Like again, born and raised in Canada, my parents are from Ghana, my husband is from Congo, and my kids are born in Canada. And so they have three cultures that they're having to navigate, right? And, you know, if they were to go to Congo, you know, are they fully Congolese or are they Ghanaian or are they Canadian? But the idea is really that you're all three. And how do you create a culture? How do you take from all the different parts of who you are and really identify your base your identity on that versus it being, it doesn't have to be all or nothing. It doesn't have to be black or white, um, 100% this or 100% that. But there's beauty in being able to have that collective experience.

Yocabed Semere 19:11

And you named something important, it's like there could be multiple cultures now. We integrate, right? We're talking about, you know, homeland versus western, yeah, but that's just two. Exactly. Now if you're having multiple different cultures, you've lived in multiple different countries, now that starts to get more complicated. Yeah. And now you're like 25% this, 10% that, right? It's it's really hard to put then a label to it. Say, oh, you know, when someone asks me where you're from, I say Eritrean, right? But it's so hard to put into context like I left when I was five. Right. It's very much, I'm not shaped by that as much than I than I was from Uganda. And now that I am from Canada. And so trying to have that context into all of this is also really important.

Michelle Massunken 19:53

Because there are three cultures at play.

Yocabed Semere 19:54

Yeah. Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 19:55

And they all deserve a space at the table.

Yocabed Semere 19:58

Exactly. Yeah. Sometimes it's four, sometimes it's five. And so giving that piece of you every little bit of that. And right, if and if you decide one part of the culture doesn't align with your values and you want to completely forego some of the traditions and beliefs of that, that's also within you know a client's decision is just choosing which values are in an alignment with yourself.

Michelle Massunken 20:20

Yeah. I think that's the key, is recognizing that culture is flexible, right? It could be flexible versus like traditions, which are sometimes a bit more rigid. But the cultural piece and understanding that there's flexibility in that, and based on whichever culture I'm adopting, then there might be certain traditions of each culture that I also now practice.

Yocabed Semere 20:39

But there's flexibility and fluidity in our cultural experiences. Yeah. And having the self-compassion to know that you're not going to get it right the first time.

Michelle Massunken 20:47

Right.

Yocabed Semere 20:47

This is trial and error, and this is near new territory, right? The no man's land, you get to make your own culture, right? But you also have to go through the challenges of what it feels like to do that on your own and having that self-compassion for yourself to say, you know, I'm not perfect, I'm human, and I'm not gonna get this right the first time. Yeah. And also the second beautiful thing is it can change over time. Yeah, you can decide that maybe you did want to go follow in your family's path for what they wanted for you, and then later on it changes. Absolutely. And you can go back and shift, right? Across different life stages of life, for example. So that's also another helpful part.

Michelle Massunken 21:27

Yeah.

Stigma And Barriers To Therapy

Michelle Massunken 21:28

So you talked a little bit about moments where you were feeling like panic attacks and anxiety and things of that nature. And I love your mom's response of like, are they gonna eat you? That's such a typical African mom response. But talk to me a little bit about what you have seen as a Black therapist in this space when it comes to mental health and accessing mental health and some of the stigmas and the role that that plays in access to mental health or some of the barriers perhaps that you might see when it comes to mental health.

Yocabed Semere 21:58

So a lot of family stigmas, right? And I find that clients, there's some clients that can't tell their parents they're in therapy, right? They're over 18, so can make that decision for themselves. So I have clients sometimes taking therapy sessions from the car. And they have to kind of figure out a way to make sure that their parents don't find out. And so we'll get into that about what it looks like if their parents were to find out. And I hear a lot of, you know, they'd laugh at me and think that this was not serious, or you're just really paying that much to talk about. Yeah, like how dare you pay that much? I could use that to send back home. Exactly. You're you know, people I could feed with this money. Exactly. And so it's like, or you could do that something else with that money. And so there's that, like you don't need it. Yeah. Also, I hear a bit a big part of it is like you don't have anything wrong with you. Yeah, you don't have some big traumas, and there's that um misconception that you have to have gone through something horrific in your life to need therapy. Yeah, um, and that anxiety is not a big enough reason, or you're depressed, like I'll show you what depression is, kind of thing, right? And so a lot of clients feel that, and also the biggest one I see is just guilt for like I'm here, but they don't want me to be here, and and I feel bad. Yeah, I'm not I'm not good enough on my own. I don't feel like I'm enough for them. Yeah, and no matter what I do, it's not enough. And so then I see a lot of clients, it goes into this perfectionism of like constantly doing the next thing and doing it perfectly, yeah, not feeling good enough, and it's people pleasing, right? Comes from that cultural piece of you had to do everything well to get that approval, and that your worth comes from success and how much you have physically accomplished, not who you are, but what you have done.

Michelle Massunken 23:35

Yeah, your achievements, your accolades, the letters after your name. Yeah. I I definitely feel like there's a lot of misconception around mental health space. So I think that goes back again to the diaspora pull, right? Like they're looking at it from, I say them as in like the uh the older generation, for example, even some others who might have been raised or exposed to that um that mindset. It's they're looking at it from um like mental health in the sense of like extreme mental health experiences, whether it's like schizophrenia or somebody, you know, who isn't necessarily um cohesive in their thinking or, you know, their view of that, I think, is sometimes with the extreme end of the spectrum. Yeah. Versus recognizing that mental health has shifted over time. It's not, again, all or nothing, where it's like if you are not able to have a cohesive conversation, or if you um can't feed yourself and you have mental health diagnosises, right now we realize that there's a shift, right? And sometimes it's a matter of stress management. Sometimes it's mental health related to just life transitions or whether it's adaptations or things of that nature. But I think that there's definitely a misconception between, okay, what is mental, what constitutes mental health or declining mental health or poor mental health versus like what is a severe mental illness. I think that there's sometimes a confusion between those two pieces. And when you know we're looking at it from the lens of like mental illness, it becomes a lot more difficult to understand that you could be on the spectrum of different places and spaces, right? And sometimes you don't have to wait till it gets to the extreme before you access help or access supports. But really the prevention is what we're after, yeah, versus being reactive to how we're feeling. And I think that's where again, being in the diaspora, you recognize that there's more of an openness to being preventative and accessing support ahead of time, not waiting until it's impacting how we parent and impacting our relationships and impacting how we navigate life, but really just addressing those things ahead of ahead of time.

Yocabed Semere 25:37

Yeah, which is what we're seeing a lot of now where people will come to therapy to be proactive. Exactly. Before, like we'll say 20% stress, they know it's heading towards 90% stress. So it's like help me have the tools now. Yeah. So when I'm at 100%, I have what I need, right? But for people in the diaspora, we see it 120%. They wait, right? And it's like things have gone bad and things are intense, and there's an extreme amount of distress. And then add that on to the fact now that they have guilt for being there and they have the anxiety that's coming up and the burnout from because we have some people choose to go with their parents' expectations that were set before them and go on to live this life and go choose a career. Like, for example, if I had gone to be a doctor and you reached to the end of that success, and we have a lot of people having an identity confusion there as well because it's I have done all of this, but the success is not mine. It feels like the success is my family's. Right. Now we're burnt out in a career we don't love. Yeah. And no way to, and it feels like hopeless to go back and almost restart over.

Michelle Massunken 26:45

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When you get to this point of success where instead of it feeling like a celebration, it feels like pressure. Yeah. Of like, okay, I did it now. Are you guys like what are we doing now? Right. And I think that there's there's that duality at play where in some ways we recognize that okay, there has been a lot of sacrifice from our parents and we want to make them proud. But how do we balance that with the pressure? Right. You see a lot of like TikTok videos of like people letting their parents wear their cap and gown or things of that nature. Exactly. And their parents are so proud because we know, like, this is for you, mom, or this is for you, dad.

Yocabed Semere 27:18

Um, but it's a balancing act. Exactly. And what I say to a lot of clients is I'm not asking you to give up what your parents want for you. Right. But is there a space for both? Yeah. Right? We don't have to say 100% me or 100% my family. Yeah, can it be a happy medium? And it's often working at that all or nothing thinking.

Tools For Reframing And Boundaries

Yocabed Semere 27:39

Oftentimes people believe like there's one choice and one decision, and that was what causes that paralysis by analysis. Right. And so oftentimes in therapy, what we're working on is okay, is there more to several areas? Exactly. Let's see some color. There has to be some grey in this black and white. And sometimes it takes a second because we're so fixated on the evidence that supports what we're thinking, right? And so that's what we do in therapy as well as those thought records of okay, you have these thoughts. What's the evidence for this thought? And clients easily will tell you all the reasons, like why I'm selfish. It's XYZ. Yeah. And I will say, you know, this is going to be the second one, is a little bit more challenging, but give us some thought. What is the evidence that suggests this might not be true? Yeah. Right. And it's like, okay, it takes a second, but we get something. And there's usually evidence that suggests they're not maybe as selfish as they thought. Yeah. And so then I will say, How do you feel now that knowing that maybe you're not this selfish person that doesn't love their family? Like, can it be true that you still love your family and are choosing to prioritize things that are according to your value? And maybe then will your parents be happier that you're happier and in an alignment with your values, which is what I chose to do is I went into psychotherapy, and maybe the response wasn't yay, right? I still have family members close to me that still don't believe mental health is a real thing. Exactly. But I'm a therapist. Yeah. And so then they'll be like, you know, you're doing it for everybody else. But I chose to go against that. And as difficult as it was, I reached now this end of it where I'm happy. But I also see that my family is also a little happier that I'm happy. And maybe that's their version of success now. Right. But we can redefine what success looks like for each individual person. And when you go against, you know, what your family wanted originally, there is still room for them to be happy in your new version of success. Yeah, that's beautiful.

Michelle Massunken 29:34

The idea of two cultures coexisting is so aligned with the idea of the truth, two truths, right? Or of like two individuals, like we can both be happy in those moments where you're getting what you want, and also I'm feeling fulfilled in my career as well, too, right? And that can it sometimes takes a little while to get there. Exactly. Right. But I think over time that's what you're noticing, like they'll come around to it. That's like with anything when it comes to assertiveness. Whenever we assert ourselves or assert our wishes or assert our needs, it's not always a popular vote. We're not like jumping, like, yeah, good for you for standing up for yourself, right? There's always pushback because they want what they want out of you as well. Um, but when we get to a point where we can assert ourselves um and we kind of go over that hump of it being uncomfortable for us, they can pick up on that after a while. Exactly. And then they start to adapt to it and recognize, okay, I trust your opinion, I trust your decision, and I I'm supporting you. It's not what I would have thought, but I'm supporting you nonetheless.

Yocabed Semere 30:31

It's when you live your way a certain way for like 20 plus years, that's the pattern they get used to. And so when you change things up, there's a little bit of a shock factor.

Michelle Massunken 30:40

Yeah.

Yocabed Semere 30:40

And clients will always take that as like I did something wrong, but I always reframe it as it feels unfamiliar because it's a new territory, doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong. Yeah. And so then they'll say, Okay, let's just push through a little bit every day. And then eventually it gets a little easier, and the people around you realize, okay, things are different now. And we're moving differently. Um, there's new expectations in town. So they're adapting. Yeah, and we're humans are resilient, they adjust everything, and yeah, we we we always are learning and our families learn too. Yeah. And just learning to stay in the uncomfortableness, though, is hard. Yeah. And so with clients, that's what we work on in sessions. It's okay, what are we feeling? Yeah. How intense is it? And how do we sit in it and reframe those thoughts to not mean that we're it's wrong?

Michelle Massunken 31:24

Yeah, yeah. I love that. So, what

You Are Not Alone

Michelle Massunken 31:27

do you want to say to our listeners? So, someone is listening, they, very similar to you, have gone through this diaspora pull where they're navigating two different cultures, oftentimes two cultures that might conflict. There might be some overlap, but there might be some conflict in the cultures, and they're trying to navigate that, recognize that as they navigate that, it's causing some stress, it's causing some anxiety for them, that's causing a lot of apprehension and a lot of uncertainty for them. What do you want to say to them?

Yocabed Semere 31:56

I want to say, first of all, you're not crazy and you're not alone in that. There are people around you that are experiencing the same thing. Unfortunately, not a lot of people are saying it out loud because then that's the second part of that shame that comes with admitting that you're struggling in this. And so it's okay that you know you're struggling in that and it feels lonely. And going against the current is not easy. And it takes work to change those patterns, and even being self-aware of that, I always say to clients, is the hardest part. We can't fix or can't work on things we're not self-aware of. And so even having that self-awareness to say, man, this is a real struggle is is a big part of it. And so I applaud anybody who who does that. And and there's nothing wrong with asking for help. And there is this saying, there is um revealing is healing. And so when we reveal the struggles that we have, that's when we heal. That's what we see a lot in clients, is like, wow, I didn't expect actually talking about it would be helpful. But when we like release it and put it out, it has no power over you. And so there is nothing wrong with saying, I need someone to walk alongside me and support me in this. And I want to chat about it in a safe, non-judgmental space. And there is no stigma in our in our therapy space. Um, there is no judgment, it is a collaborative space. And so if a client is navigating that and dealing with that, there is no shame and and asking for help. Yeah, that's actually a sign of courage and strength in in so many ways, exactly.

Michelle Massunken 33:32

Which is different than what they're probably used to, right? Yeah. So there's a lot to be said about kind of doing the opposite of what we might feel might be necessary in those moments. Yeah.

Yocabed Semere 33:40

And that's part of that reframing too. You can look at it as, you know, I'm weak for needing the help, or I'm actually really strong for the fact that I'm admitting that I'm struggling and reaching out to somebody.

Michelle Massunken 33:52

Beautiful. I love that. Well, this has been a very insightful conversation. Thank you so much for being able to share again, not just from like what you hear from clients and your professional experience, but just your vulnerability and being open and sharing your history and what's brought you to this space and how that has now informed your clinical practice. And it's beautiful to be able to know that you're able to provide that support to clients from not just a textbook. They're like a theory lens, but also from like a lived experience personal lens. And that's such a gift. Yeah. And so I'm grateful that you came and that you joined us and that we had this conversation today.

Yocabed Semere 34:28

Yeah, thank you for having me. I this is something I'm passionate about, something I spend a lot of time talking about with clients, but also in my own personal life and um something that I'm talking about with my personal friends and all of that. So it was an honour to have that conversation and just to share a little bit about my experience, but also what I see in the therapeutic space. So this was this was great.

Michelle Massunken 34:48

Thanks, Yocabed. Thank you. Thank you guys for joining us and stay tuned for our next episode of The Mind Spa Podcast.