S2 · Ep 20: Anxiety And Brain Connectivity — When the Nervous System Gets Stuck | Yvonne Burwash | The MindSpa Podcast

Your brain can appear “fine” on a surface-level map while your day-to-day experience tells a different story. In this episode of The MindSpa Podcast, Tina Wilston speaks with Yvonne Burwash about LORETA neurofeedback, short for low-resolution electromagnetic tomography, and how it uses EEG data to estimate patterns of activity across deeper brain regions and connected networks.

The conversation explores how LORETA differs from standard QEEG brain mapping and why clinicians may look beyond individual brain sites when symptoms are not easily explained by one obvious area. Yvonne introduces Brodmann areas and discusses networks commonly associated with anxiety, executive functioning, and the default mode network.

They also unpack terms such as asymmetry, coherence, connectivity, and dysregulation, explaining how brain-mapping data, symptom reports, and standard deviations may help inform whether LORETA training is an appropriate option.

You will also hear what a LORETA session can involve, from the gel-based EEG cap and longer setup process to the mental fatigue some people experience when training broader brain networks. The discussion covers how session length, difficulty, and timing may be adjusted, along with practical considerations such as sleep, caffeine intake, and allowing time to decompress after training.

This episode offers an educational look at personalised neurofeedback and its potential role in supporting concerns related to anxiety, emotional regulation, attention, and sleep.

About Yvonne Burwash

Yvonne Burwash is the Director of Neurofeedback at MindSpa Mental Health. She works with clients across the lifespan using QEEG-guided neurofeedback and collaborates with the clinical team to develop individualized training protocols based on each person's unique brain activity.

Connect With Yvonne Burwash

Website | Instagram  | LinkedIn

The MindSpa Podcast

Thoughtful conversations about mental health, relationships, identity, healing, grounded in clinical expertise and steady human insight.

Hosts

Tina Wilston, M.Ed., Registered Psychotherapist 

Co-Owner, MindSpa Mental Health Centre

https://www.linkedin.com/in/tinawilston/

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Michelle Massunken, MSW, RSW

Co-Owner, MindSpa Mental Health Centre

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https://www.instagram.com/michellemassunken.therapy/

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MindSpa Mental Health Centre

Ottawa - Kanata & Gloucester

themindspa.ca

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Transcript

Welcome And What LORETA Is

Tina Wilston 0:03

All right, welcome to the next installment of our uh MindSpa podcast neurofeedback series. So for this episode, we are going to be talking about Loretta, which is a completely different form of neurofeedback than what we've discussed before. And we've got Yvonne, our director of neurofeedback, uh talking to stay about Loretta. So maybe we'll start with what does Loretta stand for?

SPEAKER_00 0:30

Yeah, great question. It's a mouthful. Um, it means low resolution electromagnetic tomography. Um, so basically with Loretta, um based on so it's a little complex. So it works off what's called like an inverse problem. So based on the surface level um measurements or recording of that electrical activity, it makes predictions of the activity in deeper areas of the brain, like the amygdala or you know, the hippocampus.

Tina Wilston 1:01

Um the deeper structures of the brain. Exactly. Because primarily, and actually anybody will put images up or anybody who's watching the video can see here we have um actually a uh a QEEG brain map here. And this is picking up the electrical activity on the surface level of the brain, not the structures.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Yeah, exactly. So with Loretta, um, it's kind of predicting those inner that interactivity and where there is too much or too little of it. So it's different than with the specific brain waves of, you know, um too much alpha, like is alpha turned up, is it turned down? With Loretta, it's looking at all of the different brain waves, but in that, within that region, deeper, like within the deeper network.

Tina Wilston 1:45

And when you say region, are do those equate to the spots on the cap? So it's deeper.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

So it's kind of going within um to those deeper structures. So it might be um, you know, getting towards like the amygdala through like the temporal through through the temporal lobe. So it's working through broadman areas.

Deep Brain Predictions From EEG

SPEAKER_00 2:05

So broadman areas, it's kind of like a map of the brain, and and maybe on the we can put up an image of it, but it kind of looks like a puzzle. So there's 52 broadman areas.

SPEAKER_02 2:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

And depending on where the Brahman area is located on the the map of the brain, it has its specific function. So for example, we have Braubman area 10, which is at like in the prefrontal cortex, and its primary focus um function is with like executive function, emotional regulation, and so forth. So there's these different areas um that based on location have a specific function and are associated with specific symptoms or what we say, like networks. So, for example, we have like the anxiety network. Okay. So the anxiety network is going to be made up of broadband areas or other deeper regions that are connected to the experience of anxiety.

SPEAKER_02 3:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

So um each network can be a little bit different. There's also overlap between networks. So yeah, classic example is like the anxiety network. We have executive function network. Um, we have a default mode network. So default mode network is kind of, as it sounds, is kind of how we are at a resting state, um, our internal, kind of like our internal clock in a way. Um, default mode network has um one of like the networks that has the most broadened areas or other regions in it. And there is a lot of overlap. So some of the areas that are in that network are also in the anxiety network.

SPEAKER_02 3:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

So um often that is a case where altering the default mode network because we're targeting more of the areas of concern concern.

SPEAKER_02 3:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

Yeah. So there's different networks. So we kind of choose which networks we're gonna look at and see what level of um over or underactivation there is within these different areas based on the intake information and they're presenting concerns. So it's not based on the map. It is to a degree. Okay. Yeah. So we're looking at the maps.

Brodmann Areas And Brain Networks

SPEAKER_00 4:10

I would generally recommend Loretta as an option when there is a lot of inter hemispheric and a lot of connectivity dysregulation.

Tina Wilston 4:20

So looking down on So looking at the asymmetry and the coherence. Okay. So sometimes a brain map, we actually have a before and after here right now, but if we're looking at the before, sometimes the before, this is actually quite clear. It looks more like the after. But you see a lot of dysregulation happening here. So that's when you would actually more likely recommend Loretta, is when on the surface everything is actually looking pretty good. Yeah. But then we see a lot of dysregulation, and this ties into their symptoms as well.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

Exactly. So we're looking at, yeah, those the connectivity between the different areas. And then also we have another part of the analysis that we do that's called the symptom checklist. Okay. And we can look at the networks and it'll show us exactly which Brabbin areas and deeper um regions are showing to be, you know, plus one, plus two, plus three standard deviations, or minus one, minus two, minus three. Um, essentially what that means is like that would be plus one, plus two, plus three would be like the green, yellow, orange, red. And the minus one, minus two, minus three would be like the the shades of blue. Okay. So it's that like dial up, dial down, but in the more in the way of like over and under activation in those different broaden areas and deeper regions. Okay. Um how many, how many of the total number of areas are showing to showing any sort of dysregulation, whether it's too much or too little activity. Um and generally I look from the like the orange and red colors and like the darker shades of blue, because when we see the more green or lighter blue, um, it's what we like considered like not as statistically significant. Because it's more of like a mild mildly away from the normal. Yeah, exactly. So it's not as um it's not as high or yeah, problematic, you could say. So I'm looking to see, okay, how many of the total number of areas is being checked off as too much or too little. And then if more than half of the network is dysregulated or problematic, then that's where I'd say, okay, Loretta is a good fit for you. Okay. So I'll look at the actual like connectivity on these maps here to see what is the interhemispheric, like what's happening between. And then I'll also look at the symptom checklist. And that's where I'll decide, okay, is Loretta a good fit for this individual? If I see both, like they are a good fit for Loretta, but we also see the surface level uh patterns. I often will go towards single channel first, and then we could do Loretta at a different date.

Tina Wilston 7:07

Okay. So single channel back again is sort of training the brainwave activity that's happening at the surface level of the brain. So if you're seeing dysregulation at the surface level and the deeper areas, you'll do treatment on the surface level first. And then maybe uh depending on how they respond to that, how they're feeling, if there's still anything that's off, then we might recommend Loretta to target the deeper structures of the brain. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

Yeah. And there is like broadbands are pretty surface level, but with this, it's more we're targeting in on one specific brain wave. Okay. So with this, it's like, okay, you know, we see um patterns of over activity. We see the volume turned up with alpha. So we might want to put, you know, just one electro at the top and we're just targeting alpha, for example. Okay. So this is more targeted to specific brain waves, where with Loretta, it could be when we're looking at a specific region or a specific Brabbin area. It could be that multiple frequencies within that area are dysregulated. So it's training the region as a whole. Okay. Where not this is one single specific at a single frequency or brainwave. Um, so this one gets a little bit more at like the um region as a whole, and then also like the connections between the different areas. So with Loretta, there's a lot of options in terms of training. Like you can train the asymmetry, you can train the coherence, you can train um the some of the more intricate details of like interconnectivity. Okay. All right. So it sounds a bit more complex. Loretta sounds more complex. And I find that's where like the simplicity of training just with one or two frequencies can often be the better option. Okay. Um, especially as a first experience of neurofeedback. But if we're not seeing a lot of um the colors on how these maps, yeah, then I would say that in the darker reds and orange or the darker blues. Yeah, exactly. But we are seeing some of the patterns, or we're seeing that a lot of a network, like um, the anxiety network has 20 broadband areas in it, and that's 20 considering left and right hemispheres. So it's individually there's 10. Okay. But it's everything's like broadband double to 10 left, 10, right, because it's whatever's on the left also on the right. Um, so with that, there's 20 broadband areas. If 18 of the 20 are marked off, I'm gonna say, but we're not really seeing anything in these surface maps here. I'm saying, okay, well, like Loretta is probably the way we want to go. Okay. Um, that also depending on like what their presentation is or like what information is gathered during the intake, um, and also their capacity for like wearing the cap every session. And there's so many other factors that go into it, but that would be one way of like Loretta would be the option I would lean towards rather than single channel.

Tina Wilston 10:01

Okay. So this is a good opportunity to sort of like look at the the cap because this is the cap that we both use to do the QEEG brain map. Yes. It's also the cap that we use to do Loretta. And again, if

When LORETA Beats Single Channel

Tina Wilston 10:15

you haven't watched the previous uh video, we you put in gel in each one of those spots there.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

Exactly.

Tina Wilston 10:23

Um, so again, with Loretta, when you do the treatment, you want to make sure you're not doing anything afterwards because your hair will have a bunch of stuff in it.

SPEAKER_00 10:30

Exactly. Yeah. So it's definitely one of those things of um often people do it at the end of the day. Um, it can be depending though, like if you've had a full workday and then you come and do Loretta, like it can be tiring. Okay. So we do we do try to like if there can be some flexibility of okay, if you're noticing you're doing it at the end of your work day and you're, you know, getting too you're too tired from your workday to be able to engage and you're kind of like drowsing or falling asleep, we might say, is there any way for us to do it on a different time? So Loretta is only once a week for this type of neurofeedback.

Tina Wilston 11:02

Whereas the other type is twice a week.

SPEAKER_00 11:04

Exactly. So this does there's more flexibility with time and commitment in that way. Um, so I pe I find people do like that factor of it, but it is one where if you're too tired to engage and um be in it, we might say, okay, maybe earlier in the day is a better time. Ultimately, we can only we work with what we can do. Right. Um, but if it is that you're falling asleep and you're not able to engage in it. And I mean that goes with the single and double channel training as well.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:35

Um if you're you're falling asleep, we might say, is there any way we can adjust the time for the session?

Tina Wilston 11:42

And so with this one here, describe to me how so the setup is gonna be a bit more um time consuming for Loretta than single or double channel training. Yeah. Um, so because we have to get all the connectivity in all the spots.

SPEAKER_00 12:02

Yeah. So one thing it's really important, there are things that you can do to like help the setup or facilitate it and make it go easier. Um, not having product in your hair. Okay. So that's a big one. No hair gel, no hairspray. Yeah. If you come in, your hair is full of gels, oils, hairspray, um, whatever the case is, that can make it more challenging for us to get a connection.

SPEAKER_02 12:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

Um, it doesn't mean we're we're not gonna get a connection, but it can interfere with it and make it harder for us to get a like a good connection, that is. So that's one thing that you can like you can do at home is making sure that you don't have any residual products or oils or even like dirt and stuff in your hair. Um and then how we go about it is we use a cotton swab and we have rubbing alcohol and we clean the areas where are that are gonna line up with the electrodes. Um, the main focus is forehead because that's open skin, right? So we get a lot of buildup on our foreheads of like oils and dirt. And you know, if you're wearing makeup, right, you're we're gonna want to like wipe it off. So we're wiping that off. And how we'll do it is we'll kind of like go in lines, like the electrodes. I don't know if we can see it here, but um, they go in lines down the sides. So I will often kind of part the hair in a way that I'll like scrub down the line with the the rubbing call because we want to get as close to the scalp as we can. Um, so I'm kind of scrubbing, making sure that we're getting all the areas the best that we can. Um once I've done that and I feel good about my cleaning capabilities, um, I'll put the cap on. I usually have the client put the chin strap on for themselves. Um and then I'll start inserting gel into each of these little holes. So each of these holes is an electrode. So we take um just like a liquid gel that is what allows us to make the connection with the brainwave activity. It's like a conductor, and we insert it into each of the spots.

SPEAKER_02 14:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

While we're doing that, we also, the technician running the session, they have a their computer open with what's called like a signal check. So as we're putting the gel in, it's lighting up green when the connection is being made. And then there's the raw EEG, like the squiggly lines on the side. Um, so we can also see, okay, yes, it's green, it's showing connection, but does the EEG actually look clean. Look clean. Look good.

Tina Wilston 14:36

Like there's we're not seeing a lot of like um air bubbles or muscle tension or and that's something you guys are all trained to be able to identify when you're looking at the EEG. Some people will just see a random squiggly line, you guys see information.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

Yeah, pretty much, yeah. So we're kind of looking out for those things and trying to see, okay, is the electrode um maybe it's it's connected, but it's not a stable connection. So we'll if we need to add more gel, we'll do that. Um sometimes we use a syringe and kind of move the gel around a little bit on the inside, um just to make sure it's spread on the um on the scalp um and making sure that we we have that connection. Um from there, once we are confident in our connection, and I mean things happen. Tech tech always likes to challenge us in various ways, but um once we're confident in our connection, we open up the other portion of the software where we can then get into the session itself, um where the client is like watching their screen, and then similar to traditional um like the single double channel, they're getting some form of visual feedback. So they're watching something. And when their brain is effective in working within the parameters that we or the technicians have set on their computer that they are monitoring, they'll be rewarded with the visual feedback. Okay, it's kind of like they're setting a threshold or like a difficulty level, is how you could think of it. Um, and when their brain is effective in working within those parameters, they're rewarded. If their brain is kind of drifting or starting to do work outside of what we're trying to teach it, um, that's where their vision will be impeded. Yeah, they'll get like the bubbles or it'll zoom out and they can't see it, or the movie will pause. Um yeah.

Tina Wilston 16:32

So, how when it comes to results of Loretta, how are they the same? And how is it different from doing

Cap Setup And Session Logistics

Tina Wilston 16:40

traditional single or double channel neurofeedback?

SPEAKER_00 16:44

Yeah. Um a lot of the results are similar in terms of like what the individual notices and how they're noticing. So the Loretta and like single double channel are very similar in the nature of like a gradual approach, like it's taking many sessions over time to notice change. Um I would say in terms of like what it depends on like what the focus is, what the goal is, but ultimately the goal, regardless of like how we're training, is gonna be similar if it's like reduce symptoms of anxiety, um, improve or increase clarity or improve emotional regulation. Um, that sort of is similar as a whole. And and that's also where like I might recommend Loretta or um single double channel over the other.

SPEAKER_02 17:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

Um, is like what is the goal?

SPEAKER_02 17:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:35

Like emotional regulation as a whole. Like, okay, that actually could be a good fit for Loretta and like training the default mode network. Um or if we want to get specific with um, what's a good example? Insomnia, I might do lean more towards like a single channel. It kind of depends on like what's outlined.

SPEAKER_02 17:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:55

And then also with that, but I would say in terms of what you would notice, is gonna be the same between the two.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

Okay.

Tina Wilston 18:04

Like the even the even um in the amount of time. For some reason, I thought that Loretta sometimes took a bit longer to notice the benefits than single or double channels. I can.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

I think it's very individual. I think it's just dependent on the other.

Tina Wilston 18:16

Okay, so it's not universal to the title.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

I I wouldn't say it's universal. I think I've had some experiences where people have noticed earlier with Loretta than with the single double channel. Um I guess that's the same thing.

Tina Wilston 18:28

It makes sense if it's targeting like actually a whole system versus just like a singular.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

And that's one thing I find like that could be challenging or can be challenging with Loretta is um because we're targeting more as a whole, it can actually be more tiring, like energy energy-wise for them. They might notice more fatigue after sessions, um, or it might feel harder in session two, like, oh my gosh, there's so many bubbles, or um, and that's where we, as like the um technicians or professionals sitting there need to adjust and make um maybe make it easier, or maybe, you know, kind of work with the the client on like what is gonna work best for them. Like as a whole, generally we do five minute rounds. Okay. So it'll be like five-minute round where they're watching, and then they get like a 10 to 30 second break, and then another five-minute round.

SPEAKER_02 19:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

And then 10, and we do a go. Like in total, once they work up in the beginning, we start with about 30 minutes of training, we work up to 40. But um, let's say five minutes is like that last minute we're noticing consistently of each round, they're dozing, or they're just like, no, they're they're so tired, they can't. So maybe it's like, okay, we'll do four minute rounds. Okay. So you can adjust it very specific to the person. Yeah. And make it best for their learning because everyone learns different, everyone's capacity or ability to focus for certain periods. And maybe we start with the four and go to five.

Tina Wilston 20:10

Okay. Cause I think that's something that's really important for people to understand of the strength of what neurofeedback is, is it is incredibly tailored to the individual, is tailored to their brain map. It is tailored to their specific symptoms and the symptoms that they want to work on. Um, and then even when they're doing the sessions, there is what TV show do you want to watch? And then we're gonna tailor it to if we do notice, because there's there's like a window of best level of difficulty. So you learn at your best. Yeah. And everybody's is slightly different, and we're able to actually look at your experience, see the feedback on the screen and be able to make adjustments specific to the person.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

Yeah. And that's exactly it. Of like, we'll kind of start with the standards, see how they respond. And then if we need to make an adjustment, we can make that adjustment and kind of work with them to facilitate their where they're at. Yeah. Yeah. Like we're trying to kind of meet the client where they're at for that. Um, and I think too, there's other things outside of the neural room that can make well make or break the impact of the training. So that's where like I with the technicians in sessions, they'll emphasize importance of like, okay, getting a good sleep the day of training. Right. So if you're doing a neuro session today, it is ideal for you to like try your best to, you know, get a good sleep, get enough hours, be in bed at, you know, maybe not at 1 a.m. Right. Maybe a little bit earlier, depending on your on your schedule um and what fits your life. But you want to try to get a good sleep. Um, also with like caffeine. You know, as soon as you walk out of the room, it's not ideal to go grab a coffee. Although I've I've done it. Um sometimes you need to, but yeah, sometimes you need to, but it's not, you kind of want to put yourself in the best position you can to facilitate how the training is going to work. So, you know, caffeine immediately. Before or after isn't ideal. Same with sugar.

SPEAKER_02 22:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:15

Um, that's not gonna be the best. And then same with actually like hunger cues. Okay. You don't want to go into a session feeling really hungry. Like if your stomach's growling when you're sitting there, okay. You know, it's not gonna be as ideal. You want to be like comfortably full.

Tina Wilston 22:30

All right. Yeah. And if I understand correctly, too, there's some recommendations that you're gonna make for right after a session. So uh young folk or folks with ADHD, is there not a recommendation to maybe not get right onto screens of video games in particular for the everybody, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

As a whole, of like try your best to um stay off the screen immediately after. Yeah. Um yeah, I would say the main one of like everything and with like the stuff we know about brainwaves and stuff as well, is like if you can get a good night's sleep, even rest, yeah. Maybe if like you're if you're here for insomnia and you're like, I'm not gonna sleep. Yeah, at least if you can get a good amount of rest so that your brain can get into a more calm state so that the learning can like consolidate and kind of sink in. Right. That's the best, yeah. The best, yeah.

Tina Wilston 23:22

And one of the other things I think is important for everybody to understand, so especially when let's say emotional regulation is what we're and anxiety. Let's say are the two of the things that we're looking at. Um, sometimes people have to recognize that if their environment is a very high stress environment, so either home or work in which they spend eight hours a day at work or whatever the other eight hours a day at home, if they are very, very high stress, that is gonna work against the learning. We're still, we should, we would expect to still see overall improvements. Um, but they are gonna be limited if you keep throwing yourself in high stress environments immediately after training, right?

SPEAKER_00 24:02

Yeah. And and that too of like um substance use of like using like alcohol or like recreational, like cannabis or something like that, too. Um that's going to impact the training as well. So ideally it's like, okay, on days of training, you're not engaging in those activities. Okay.

Tina Wilston 24:23

And all that's explained to everybody in advance. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

Yeah.

Tina Wilston 24:26

To help them benefit as much as they can from that.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

So the technicians will kind of, as they're walking you through the process, they're like, okay, these are, you know, some of the things like with the queue as well. Everybody

Results, Fatigue, And Tailoring Training

SPEAKER_00 24:35

gets like a prep sheet before that kind of outlines, like, okay, no product in your hair. Right. You know, how can you go into it with the best um intentions? Yeah. I suppose. And then same for like when they're doing training, the first session is usually like them getting the ropes of okay, this is kind of what to expect and what maybe like not to do. Obviously, you know, if you're gonna do it, you you can do it. We're not we can't stop. We're not gonna put these two, we're not gonna like go check in, but you know, we'll kind of give the recommendation of like to help facilitate the best possible results. This is kind of the ideal. Okay. Yeah. And then no technology before bed. Ah, which is just a general good rule of thumb.

Tina Wilston 25:19

Yeah. Many actually of the recommendations are all things that you would just generally say are a good idea. Um, but recognizing that they specifically are gonna make the the results not as strong and potentially have to have you do more sessions to get the desired outcome. Yeah. Yeah. And so why is Loretta once a week instead of twice a week?

SPEAKER_00 25:44

You're training a lot more areas at once. It's a lot more tiring. And I think if you were to do it, I mean you can, um, but I think you would be very tired. Okay. And I've done it. The brain doesn't learn well when it's tired. I've done that, I've done it with some people who have done more like mass and they're like they only had a certain amount of time and they're like, I'm going on a trip. And I'm like, okay, not ideal, but we could do two or maybe even three in a week. But I remember we did the three and they were completely wiped. Okay. Like it is just mental fatigue. Yeah. Complete mental fatigue. They're like, this is it's just too much. And I'm like, for sure, okay, we tried it. Let's like two seems more manageable. We'll do that instead. Even that, it's very tiring. And I think it comes down to the intensity, maybe, of it, of like how much we're training in the brain. Yeah. Where we're single channel, we're a lot more targeted. Even with single channel and double channel, I have the option, like we can train more than one area at the time. And sometimes I do, depending on, you know, there's other um um logistics or things that go into it, but we can train more than one area. But generally the brain does better with simplicity.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

So if we can with single channel, we can train one spot and keep it there. The brain is probably gonna do a little bit better. It can grasp it a little bit easier.

SPEAKER_02 27:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:04

Where it's a lot more heavy on the brain to be doing that.

Tina Wilston 27:11

Okay. That is very, very cool. Loretta is a very interesting and and would you say that uh and you present sort of all the options. You you go through their QEG brain map, you go through their um intake, their goals, we present them with different options. If Loretta seems like a good idea, you let them know. But if clients say, you know what, I don't want to do that one, I want to do single or double, and and we see a good case for doing that, there's so the client gets to decide as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

Yeah. Often if I do find that like we could go either way. We could do the Loretta, we could do single channel. Um, I'll kind of give them, I'll be like, okay, so here are like more of the convenience items of it. I'm like, Loretta, you have the cap. You're gonna have your hair full of gel every single time that you come in. Um pro, it's once a week. Yeah. That's that's ideal for a lot of people in terms of commitment. Single channel, on the other hand, pro, you don't have gel, like you have a bit of pace that we clean out. So you're walking out of here, clean is a way to go, you're good to go. Yeah. Um but generally it's that's practical. Like, I'm gonna recommend twice a week. Yeah.

Tina Wilston 28:27

So that's where I'm like and Loretta's also, is it also 20 to 40 sessions? Yeah. Okay. So that's also spread out over a longer period of time then. Yes, this would be longer. Yeah. Okay, it's only once a week. But again, because we're trying to make more complex changes, that makes sense that it might take a bit longer.

unknown 28:47

Yeah.

Tina Wilston 28:47

But also you're just doing it once a week. So in a lot of ways, it's still the same number of sessions.

unknown 28:52

Yeah.

Tina Wilston 28:53

Okay. Well,

Frequency, Tradeoffs, And Listener Qs

Tina Wilston 28:55

I feel like that might be all we sort of have specific to Loretta.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

Yeah.

Tina Wilston 29:02

Okay. So thanks for listening. If you have any questions, please reach out to us and let us know because we will happily answer any questions that come up for people after listening to the episode.