Facilitated

34| Emotional Constipation, Courage, & Your Nervous System with Self-love Coach Quiggy

• The Facility Denver • Episode 34

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A conversation with mindfulness-based self-love coach Jonathan Quigg "Quiggy". 

We connect functional medicine with self-love and relationship work to show how nervous system safety shapes health, behavior, and intimacy. Courage, honesty, and practical tools like RAIN turn shame into movement and shift partnerships from codependence to generosity.

• diagnosing biology not disease as a guiding principle
• alcohol culture contrasted with sober connection and embodiment
• autonomic balance as foundation for sleep, digestion, blood sugar control
• stewardship for clinicians, teachers, and helpers to model regulation
• courage as a trainable capacity coexisting with fear
• RAIN method to process emotions and reduce shame
• guilt versus shame framed for growth and repair
• iterative, listening-first care over rigid protocols
• codependency as reactive nervous system pattern
• moving partnerships from getting to giving and toward 100-100

CONNECT WITH COACH QUIGGY:

@quiggcultivation + all the links here

“Unfuckwithable Self-Trust: How to attract a purposeful partnership in six months or less” — A free 2-day virtual experience for heart-centered, high-achievers who are longing for and ready to finally attract a healthy, sustainable, interdependent partnership, December 9–10. [Details + Register here]

“Coming Home to Us”: Mindfulness in Denver at Archipelago, Mondays 7–8:15 pm:  [Upcoming dates + tickets]


Want to take the next step with functional medicine? Learn more about our new patient process and lab testing at www.thefacilitydenver.com

For more insights, tips, and behind-the-scenes content, follow us on Instagram @thefacilitydenver

Join our email list for monthly updates + offers.

Stay curious, stay proactive, and we’ll catch you next time!

Mitchell:

Welcome to Facilitated, where we bring you real stories, strategies, and science from the world of functional medicine. I'm Dr. Mitchell Rasmussen, a functional medicine practitioner.

Kate:

And I'm Kate Daugherty, a certified nutritionist. We are the owners of The Facility, a functional medicine clinic here in Denver, Colorado.

Mitchell:

We help people improve their biology and get out of their own way. In my view, our work is about getting to know the person with the condition much more than it's about understanding which condition the person has. As I always say, we need to diagnose the biology and not the disease.

Kate:

On this podcast, we break down complex health topics, share real patient cases, anonymized, of course, and explore cutting-edge wellness strategies so you can make informed decisions about your health. Quick heads up before we dive in. This podcast is for education and general information only. We're here to share insights, not to diagnose or treat. So if you're dealing with a health issue, chat with a qualified healthcare provider before making any changes. All right. Let's get into it.

Mitchell:

Alright, everybody. Welcome back. Pretty excited about today. We're we're sitting with a friend of mine. He's got so much to share. He works in this space that essentially all of us can relate with. Relationships, self-worth, and parts of ourselves that we hide under stress, shame, and pressure. His name is Quiggy, and he is a self-love and a mindfulness teacher, a self-love coach and a mindfulness teacher. And I want to talk a little bit about biology, resilience, human performance, and from Quiggy's perspective, how relationships are one of the most biologically impactful forces we experience. So today I want to bridge into his his world of relational and self-love coaching with my world of stress physiology, behavior change, and the biology of safety. I looked it up when you got in here today. We've known each other for four years, Quiggy.

Quiggy:

It's our anniversary. Yeah.

Mitchell:

Yeah, it was November of 2021 we met. So here we are, November of 2025. So thanks for coming in.

Quiggy:

Yeah, man. I'm really, really, really stoked to be here and uh just happy to see you guys thrive and keep doing the incredible work that you're doing and really bringing such integrity to the health world in a way that's much, much needed. And uh I feel really aligned and appreciative of you guys in my life. You've been huge in my in my health journey, and that includes my uh physical health, but also my emotional and mental health. So thanks for doing what you do and for having me here.

Mitchell:

What's crazy is I remember that when we first met, I'm a pretty skeptical guy. And when I hear like self-love coach, like all this stuff, I had not because of who you were, but I remember I had doubts like, what is this guy? Like, what is this actual thing? And I remember and I told you this. You were talking to me once, and I was or I was talking, and I was stopped dead in my tracks because I saw your eyes see me, and it almost like gave me chills and almost made me start crying because I was sitting, because I don't get a lot of that from you know in that type of relationship, and I remember your eyes saw through like deep into me. And it do you remember that? I actually couldn't talk.

Quiggy:

I remember some of those moments, yeah.

Mitchell:

You made Mitchell speechless, and from then on, I've just saw like you have such a power and such a truth to you, such a raw honesty. And I mean, anybody that follows you goes on your newsletter, you know, sees your Instagram, your podcast. I mean, that's that's a fact that there's such a truth and vulnerability to you that is so rare. And what I love is that it's a man leading with vulnerability, and I think that there's not enough of that.

Quiggy:

Thank you. Thank you for seeing that. And uh yeah, we're we're having a little we're having a little moment here because we haven't actually seen each other in probably like a year or so, and uh, you know, I haven't been been in for my my checkups as much as I really should be. I'm on the other side of town now, but uh so uh I deeply appreciate your presence as well.

Mitchell:

You know, what's this what's this outfit you have?

Quiggy:

This is an outfit. So I'm I'm big into electronic music, bass music, and the the new thing is to do crossovers with hockey jerseys. So all the artists will do like their merchandise, and this is a group called Lab Group. And uh I've got uh uh a magnifying uh glass, or what do you call this? A microscope. Microscope on the front here and cheap print jersey, which I felt like would be perfect for for this uh for this event.

Mitchell:

And for those of you audio only, it looks kind of like a Boston Bruins jersey.

Quiggy:

Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah.

Mitchell:

It took me by surprise. I'm like, you're a hockey fan. And then I was like, why is there a microscope on the front?

Quiggy:

Well, we're getting scientific today.

Mitchell:

So I love that. And uh a lesser known thing about you is you're a DJ.

Quiggy:

I do DJ. Um it's it's been a passion project of mine for many years. I DJ'd weddings professionally, homecomings as well for a couple years, and not really integrated it into the work that I do in um bringing dance, really kind of an ecstatic dance sort of uh inspiration in in my own way, uh, infusing that with mindfulness and improv games and play. Uh I have a couple events that I that I do regularly that are um great fun and help people integrate into the work that I do. The dark disco is like integrating the parts of ourselves that we um are really ashamed of, the big emotions that we don't know how to deal with, really taking them through a process and that experience, which I do, you know, pretty much biannually, of you know, really self-compassionately and somatically tuning to what's here that we so commonly and so many um realms of our life and culture are not attuned to, you know, like in your workplace culture, um we're not really invited to bring all of ourselves, you know. Even even in the, I like to use this example when we talk about like, how are you? Like, I'm good, even though like you're dying on the inside. It's so we're so fake, we're so cuss accustomed to hiding and not sharing the fullness of ourselves. So the dark disc was really about bringing everything, the things that we typically hide and and maybe repress or don't feel like we can welcome in the world, and really integrating that in a way. And and that's really the pathway to to freedom in in my lens.

Mitchell:

It's like the opposite of human resources department. Um I want you to be fully you. And I I think I I'm fortunate in the work that I do. I uh people do generally see me, I think. I don't need you know, I'm shoot off the cuff, say a swear word here and there. I try to be who I am as much as possible. But you're right, so much of our lives we spend not fully letting people in because that's scary, right? And one thing I love about your the discos, the DJ stuff you do is a lot of those dances are without like you don't you won't want people drinking, right?

Quiggy:

No drinking, no alcohol.

Mitchell:

Which I love.

Quiggy:

I will say that we offer optional mushroom microdoses, and really, you know, my mission because they've been a huge part of my healing and and using them very intentionally, um, and really medicinally and uh ritualistically in a really healthy and safe way, inviting that uh to support and incubate this this process for people, but it's by no means necessary. And yeah, really I don't drink, I haven't drank in four or five years. You know, at this point, I have a drink and I just feel the effects pretty ass kicking. And so I'm just like, nah, not for me, but I really have a have a snobby, you know, at times judgmental kind of looking down upon how insanely ridiculous our drinking and nightlife culture is, you know, and it's just so indoctrinated in our culture and so normalized the like, oh man, I was so drunk last night, and like, you know, I recognize the, you know, the the the heart in me recognizes that people are in pain and that they don't know what to do with their pain. And so we distract and suppress, and alcohol is like the tool that we have traditionally done it with. And um I feel like it's just really not supporting our best interests as a culture. So when I do these events, there's no alcohol, and that's the culture, the nightlife, the dance culture that I think would be really beneficial for us to start to and you see catch on. There's like the coffee shop, morning time disco dance parties, and those are epic. That's that's the kind of kind of world I want to live in.

Mitchell:

I I mean, alcohol anesthetizes us, right? It it like allows us to ignore a lot of parts of ourselves. And sometimes I think about this, I'll be out walking my dog at night, and I'll go I'll sometimes not in my new neighborhood, but where I used to live, I would walk past a couple bars and I would see people. That's just your Tuesday night. You're having six, seven beers, and then what happens? You sleep poorly, you're more inflamed, you're more irritated, your neurochemistry is all jacked up the next day, and that's like a normal part of our culture. It's like, why are we not getting out and connecting real and exercising and moving our bodies? And it is, it's just so normalized, especially in the city we live in. There's a huge drinking culture here, and I just I think so many people are missing out on true experience because we're just anesthetizing ourselves. Yeah, I didn't even know we were gonna talk about that today.

Quiggy:

Well, I mean, it's so relevant in both of our worlds, you know, in the way that we relate. You know, I look at things through the lens of romantic, intimate partnerships and relationships, but the the wider lens of the mindfulness work that I do is really about how we're relating to ourselves and how we're relating to each other collectively. And how our health intersects with that is so relevant. I mean, I've really been on this healing journey and it's been so intertwined to how my relationships have panned out because you're so, you know, when your health is stressed, whether that's by, you know, exhaustion and not sleeping well or alcohol consumption, all these stressors that are kind of normalizing our culture that, you know, until you wake up to the possibility of, you know, what life can be like when you take out some of these, you know, really um stressful, really harmful things, you know, like not sleeping is harmful. I I think it's fair to say drinking is harmful. You know, when you take those things out of your world, you start to experience what true intimacy and connection feels like. And we're so accustomed to um, and I think this really contributes to why the culture is so divided and so divisive in a way that we we can't connect, we can't have conversations, reactive too. Reactive, yeah, you know, and social media plays a big role in that. But if we're all drinking regularly and we're all out of our bodies and not connected to, you know, these things that, you know, if you've done blood work with with Mitchell, like there's a lot of information that we're missing out on, but then there's emotional information. There's so many things that our bodies are saying to us that we've really pushed down and aren't listening to, and that really affects the way that we connect because we're not able to actually listen to ourselves, let alone to each other.

Mitchell:

Well, and and I love that because in my for my world, I'm very numbers driven, data driven. I I look at the you know, your health as a puzzle. I think it's so fascinating. But our main philosophy is for every single person, sleeping, pooping, blood sugar control. And what is the Chewing Your Food? Thank you. Yes, another shout out to Chewing Your Food. What is what is the central crux of sleeping, pooping blood sugar control? It's autonomic stability, it's balancing that parasympathetic and sympathetic tone, right? And so so much of what you do is helping people get into get out of their midbrain, out of their reptile brain, into somatic experience, into their frontal lobe. And quite literally, chronic stress keeps you out of that frontal cortex, it keeps you out of your normal baseline, healthy physiology. So just as I talked to a group of yoga teacher trainees, I implored them. I did a four-part series with them a year ago or a year and a half ago, and I preached to them, you are the primary care providers of our culture. You are, if you're managing sympathetic, parasympathetic balance, you are literally helping prevent all sorts of chronic disease. And you take that a step further as with one-on-one with the individuals you work with, with these groups. I mean, that's what it is. It's primary care, it's prevention, it's it's helping people normalize the tone of their nervous system.

Quiggy:

Yeah, I so love that that was the message. And I remember you told me that a couple years ago. Maybe you had sat with another group, and that's you know, now a staple on your PowerPoint. And it's such an important point. And I think it's it's really a responsibility that I think should be held um sincerely across the board when it comes to all of the people who are in caretaking, you know, support positions. And I think the the good fortune that you and I have being outside of the system, the allopathic system, the therapeutic system, is that we're not being subject to these like rules and structures that actually make your therapist and your doctor the most stressed-out person that you could possibly go learn how to be less stressed out from. And I think it really is a moral responsibility to talk about the yoga teachers, to be embodied in that, not perfection of, you know, you know, zen, but to be in practice with the things that they're preaching. And that really translates energetically, and it's something that I really hold dearly. I mean, my work and my ability to to guide people in that is 100% a product of my practice and my you know commitment to that. And I really feel that with you and the work that you guys do, and that's why there's such alignment and appreciation, and there's responsibility there, you know. Like, and I think it's really sad that, you know, both my parents are physicians. I was gonna get into that. Yeah.

Mitchell:

Your background and how yeah.

Quiggy:

My poor mother is like, you know, at the end of her career and just so stressed out about this system. And I hear about it, and I'm just like, you know, my partner too was a nurse for many years, and she was like, I gotta get the hell out of here. And, you know, she does incredible work helping um nurses get out of that world where there's like such a heart when you come into it, you know, as anybody getting into that world, you want to give, you want to support, you want to impact. But to be so unbel unbelievably underslept and stressed.

Mitchell:

All the light, the fluorescent lights in the hospital, the beepers, the the protocols, there's no the thinking goes out the window, it's simply follow the protocol, which can help if you're in an you know an emergency or trauma, you're saving lives. But yeah, so much of medicine is just this like angsty production.

Quiggy:

And how does that translate to the patients getting health care? You know, so just to to kind of circle back on that, it's not just the yoga teachers, it's the doctors, but also teachers too, and um, I don't know, bus drivers, you know, like anybody who's in a who's in a leadership position where you're pilots. I don't know if you watched uh Nathan Fielder's, you know, show on uh on uh airline pilots and and just like exploring the psychology of that, but uh, you know, anybody who's in a position to to impact or to serve or to hold people's safety, emotional health uh in in any profound way, those are your yoga teachers, you know. Like I guess the point I'm trying to make is I believe, and this is what I really try to hold myself to and hold my people to, that we really need to think about being stewards of the work that we do, stewards of the heart and the minds that are really powerful, that we carry and we're sharing with each other, uh, and steward that more responsibly than than we're doing. And just to come back to the conversation about suppression and, you know, our health is our wealth. And I really think that the body is, and at least in my experience, it's kind of the lowest common denominator. And the more that I have gone into my own spiritual, mental, emotional health, mindfulness journey, it's become more and more. And I don't know if you've had any, I'm sure you've had, you know, therapists and and and those kinds of people on this podcast. Somatic is, you know, the buzzword for a reason because the body is the lowest common denominator in anything and everything, in your health, in your wealth, and in your relationships. And unless you are attuned to it in a self-responsible way and stewarding this body, like this body is a gift, it's such a crazy machine, and you know that better than I do. We're kind of wasting it, you know?

Mitchell:

Yeah, and and it all the somatic, you know, bottom up, and then I really think about how, and I say this to people sometimes, like you owe it to yourself to take care of your physical structure because the brain is this amazing supercomputer that must have the body to give it inputs from the outside world, the way your feet touch the earth, the way your hands experience your senses, you're integrating all this information from the outside world through your body into your brain so that that's what you can experience. And I think about I always say, you know, you got a million problems until you don't have your health, and there's one problem on board, and it's your health, and we take it for granted. And then back to like the medicine thing, so much of medicine is if you're not very sick, then you must be well. And wellness is not the absence of disease, right? It's it's flourishment, flourishing, it's resilience, it's flexibility, it's sturdiness. And I've had to work on that a lot. I struggle with you know health anxiety at times, and the more and more, and I think part of why I do what I do is to try to understand myself. And I think any good, I hate this word, but healer is on their own personal journey trying to figure themselves out. And agreed. Maybe I'm speaking out a turn here, but I feel like that's been such a drive for the work you do.

Quiggy:

For sure.

Mitchell:

It's because you're such a complex, deep thinking, existential type guy, and it seems to me watching your growth over the years and stepping into these roles, that it seems like you're simply trying to make sense of the world. And totally. And would you say through that journey, if you will, you've discovered, oh my gosh, I am not alone. People need connection, people need this type of help.

Quiggy:

Yeah, 100%. I mean, I I resonate deeply with that uh, you know, I think that there are kind of two paths that you can go down when it comes to healing and and impacting. I think there's genuinely, and I will say in a generalized way, uh, within the human condition, compassion and a desire to serve and impact and support each other. We're interdependent beings. Like whether it's just wired into our limbic system or to in something less tangible in our heart and our awareness, we love to love. We love to help each other.

Mitchell:

Damn, that's powerful because we ignore that.

Quiggy:

Well, it's suppressed. Or it's I think this is you know one of the most inspiring stories to the work that I do and why I've why I've landed after changing outfits many, many times in my my coaching career of five, five years and and more than that, mentoring. I landed at self-love because there's a great story of the Dalai Lama coming to the United States um to the West. And I'm a I'm a product of a of a Buddhist Western Buddhism sort of tradition that was carried from these teachers that you know were going to India after taking all the LSD in the 60s and 70s. They went to India, to Burma and to Thailand and to learn how to practice these this tradition, and then they brought it back. And now there's this really incredible um, you know, movement in the West that's bringing mindfulness in a really like secular, integrated way that's allowing us to apply some of these things that support our health, our happiness, our integration, our compassion, yada, yada, yada, connection. And the Dalai Lama came to you know talk with a bunch of teachers, and there's a story about him um being confused when the teachers, the Western teachers, were talking about self-loathing. They were like, yeah, we have a lot of people, you know, loathe themselves. And the Dalai Lama speaks a little bit of English, but he has a translator, and it took like 15, 20 minutes for him to understand what they meant by self-loathing, because there was not a word in Tibetan, the Tibetan language, that he could directly translate because it's not that that issue doesn't exist to the same level of pandemic that it does, and endemic. I don't know if I'm using the right word here, in the West, because collective cultures where these traditions come from are like the self is much more integrated collectively. And so that's really inspired me in the work that I do because I think the real true pathway to being a healer, akin to what we're talking about, where you're integrated and you're embodied and you're actually bringing a presence and an energy that translates maybe more than what you say or how perfectly you deliver your yoga class, we have a particular mission, I think, here in the West, to integrate the self in a way that is inclusive. Because the self is, you know, through Gestalt principle, like we're um a part, an equal part that creates a sum that is greater than than the parts on them on their own. And I think in our individualistic, highly individualistic culture, we've kind of lost track of loving and integrating and holding the self. And so many parts of ourselves get shoved down. And so to come back to what I wanted to say, you know, with that as the background, I think the doctors and the nurses and the therapist, unfortunately, you know, as a product of many other things in a in a society that, you know, is imperfect, you know, and we have to make ends meet, and there's options to certify and get yourself set up for a, you know, um to be able to take care of yourself and your family. There's a lot of wounded healing. There's a lot of healing from a position of um not really being fully integrated in your own self-love. And I think that that is a limitation to our ability to show up in the world. And so I really I really feel for, you know, I've had good friends who are teachers, you know, who just share with me like how miserable it is to teach. And yet there's so much care in that. But at the expense of oneself, at the expense of one's health, at the expense of one's, you know, life force, there's a lot of that pathway, I think, is way too prominent and needs to get adjusted culturally. And this is part of what I want to inspire and help people shift out of, because I do think that there are alternate routes. That pathway is is far too forged. Where we go to the because we care and we want to support and we want to help others, we go straight to the caregiving at the expense of ourself. And it's unsustainable. And teachers burn out, doctors burn out, nurses burn out because of this. My pathway, and I've been fortunate to have, you know, the spaciousness and and you know, really the courage to be able to take these these steps in my life and and to be introduced to mindfulness and Buddhism early on enough to inspire this. My approach and my belief is that actually to be able to really truly serve from your heart's greatest capacity, it happens through the self. It happens through integrating that self. It happens through loving yourself through that self-loathing because once you turn on the tap, you know, of love that's really like ready to fucking flow within you, my goodness, the impact that you can have on other people is a whole nother level than when you're showing up stressed, exhausted, and overwhelmed.

Mitchell:

So we owe it to the people we serve to take care of our needs.

Quiggy:

100%.

Mitchell:

And and I look at that much more from like a structural chemical perspective, and but there's always that spiritual soul perspective that I think is so missed out. And what's interesting, you mentioned the word courage. I feel that there's not really a playbook for what you do. So it requires so much trial and error and willingness to fail, which literally embodies what you're trying to teach others to do, I think, is to not let fear hold them back. It's kind of meta in a way, like through the work you're doing, I don't feel like you have a lot of solid examples of how to do it. So you just have to like take a chance to entrust that you're doing the best work you can and that you're gonna learn along the the way.

Quiggy:

Yeah, there's a lot of things to say there. I you know, I fortunately do have examples, and there are people out there doing good work, and I think that we can see examples of, you know, a big part of uh I'm particularly at this moment in my life where I'm really trying to hit that next level in my own growth. You know, I feel like I've really gotten in the past few years. You know, when we first met, I really was struggling with injuries in my health, and um I, you know, shared excitedly with you that, you know, my partner and I did the Gaps introduction diet earlier this uh year. Game changing. I mean, my nervous system has 30, 40% more capacity regularly, daily, than it ever has had before. So now I'm actually getting to this point where like my nervous system and my body is settled enough that I can start to, you know, aim for this next edge. And I think a big part of that is putting yourself in the room, actively looking for those who are where you want to be, those who embody the energy and the traits that you want to create in yourself. You know, my business is called, my umbrella is called quig cultivation. And while I do think that there's some truth to astrology and the personality types, you know, I'm I'm kind of stubbornly in the background. Like, okay, I have my predispositions, I have my, you know, I'd be curious what you want to want to say about this, I have my nature when it comes to my personality and my body, but I also believe that we can really cultivate any number of the human qualities, um, emotional capacities, personality types that exist within the human condition. You know, we all, whether you're an introvert or an extrovert, you've all ex we've all experienced moments of introversion or moments of extroversion. You know, like there is a reference point somewhere in there for you to cultivate, like a garden, you water it. You know, so courage, for example, is something that you water.

Mitchell:

And and you know, I think you should say that again because that's powerful. So you're like courage can be taught, can be learned, can be practiced.

Quiggy:

100%. And and something I saw. They don't, you know, and we're not you know, I've really been actively the information's out there, the wisdom is out there, and that's one of the gifts of and I think the transformative potential of the internet, which is coming with its, you know, scrapes and bumps for sure, and there's you know the the dopaminergic sort of um misuse and abuse that we've gotta kind of wrangle in. But in addition to that, there is the possibility for human flourishing because the wisdom is out there and it's been taught, and you know, I pull it from Eastern traditions, but there's Western iterations of it too, and there's indigenous and um you know, it there's religious wisdom too, there's all these good things, and you know, what is it like uh Jet Lee said, you know, take what you want, leave what you don't, you know, integrate it, make it your own. It's out there, you know. So if you want to learn to be courageous, get yourself in the room with, start to pay attention to and learn from courageous people, like be in the energy of courageous people. Read, you know, I read, I wanted to be more courageous. And so I picked up courageous calling, which is a book about stoicism written by Ryan Holiday. It's just like little excerpts of historical stories of courage, and that helps me start to water that reference point. I've been courageous at points in my life. Do I, you know, did I at that point uh consider myself a courageous human? Probably not, but as I've practiced with courage, I've become more courageous. And and really the big thing is, and I saw this on Instagram the other day, it was just it was a passing thing, but it was like actually, this is really a powerful belief to now integrate that you think that courage means the absence of fear, but it doesn't. You know, courage comes with fear. You don't, you know, it's like Brene Brown's kind of uh there's no vulnerability, there's no vulnerability without courage, or there's no courage without vulnerability. Because, and I think this is part of the like suppression culture, even that can get you know baked into sort of spiritual bypassing in the spiritual world of like let's just manifest and be happy all the time. But actually, fear is potent. Fear is some real shit, fear is powerful information, and pure fear is something that we need to we get to learn to have right relationship with, and it involves courage, and that's something that you can you can bake in the kitchen and and make some sweet shit with.

Mitchell:

I think that's a great point when the the misconception about oh, he's not afraid. It's like, are you kidding me? The most courageous things require the ability to lean into the fear, and it's well, if you don't have fear, I think it's called stupidity. You're just acting crazy, you're a twenty-pression, a 21-year-old, just no frontal lobe yet developed, and oh, he's so courageous, like, or he's a dumbass. And I think that's so key just for people to hear that is it's okay to be afraid. In fact, it might be required, is what I'm hearing, in order to exhibit courage. What's funny is we've been talking for a half hour. I have this whole list. I've seen one of these.

Quiggy:

We could go on, I've got one forever.

Mitchell:

I I am curious about this. This was my first question, and it's something that you've touched on a little bit today. Um that you talk a lot about bringing suppressed parts of ourselves into awareness. Like, what does that actually look like in real life and in the work you do?

Quiggy:

Yeah, so uh I was introduced to a really incredible uh uh mindfulness tool called Rain. It's it's it's stands for recognize, allow, investigate, and nurture. Um I was introduced to it by my teacher, Tar Brock. And it's a really beautiful, I would say integrated tool that combines mindfulness with modern psychology, you know, and this is where I'm I'm really fortunate to be uh invested in a world that's bringing the wisdom of ancient Eastern tradition, but then modernizing it and updating it with, you know, that's why I'm here with you. You're a scientist, like I'm a scientist too. You know, mindfulness is science of the mind, of the body, and emotions. It's you know, meditation is a is like your microscope.

Mitchell:

I was just gonna say you have the shirt on.

Quiggy:

I got the shirt on for a reason. Meditation is a microscope. I'm looking at the camera now because that's the truth. I love that. Um, so this practice called rain has really been it's been game-changing for me. And uh really what it's teaching you to do is uh transformative in the way that you relate to yourself and how we relate to ourselves is how we relate to each other. You know, we're all mirrors for each other. We talk about the mirror of our relationships showing us uh where in ourselves we get triggered, where in ourselves we're not free, where in ourselves we're hurt. Um I think it's also true that how we relate to ourselves then mirrors back into our relationships. So again, I'm the like go through the self, you know, integrate the way that you relate to yourself in a way that is healthier, more free, more open, more grounded, and then that will translate into your relationships powerfully. Rain teaches you how to get back into your body and actually tend to all of the data that your body, all of the signals, really it's it's teaching you to listen again to your body, which is telling you so much information. It's probably not gonna tell you all of the biomarkers that you will get in blood work, but they're you know, and I'm not the most embodied person by any means, and and yet there are people out there who can feel their ribs and who can um you know feel their internal organs, you know. There's all this like data, sensory data that's in the body that our culture makes it really difficult to pay attention to. Like even if you're not drinking, just being in our phones, like technology really affects that. And all of that data, a lot of it is emotional and energetic. I really like this analogy, and you tell me if this fits in with you know the the science, but the brain in the body is innately a powerful energy and trauma digestive system. You know, it knows how to digest and move energy, but our emotional digestive systems are disconnected, they're clogged up, they're backed up, the pipes are clogged up, and so we're not digesting all of this anger, this grief, this anxiety, and we're just carrying it.

Mitchell:

We're emotionally constipated.

Quiggy:

We're emotionally constipated. So, you know, one of one of those people that I put myself in the room with, uh a coach who's an idol of mine, Peter Crohn, gave this great analogy. He's like, if you learned, and many of us learn early on in life when we're kids and we're impressionable and we don't know what's right and what's left, and we just take the stories and we run with them for the rest of our life, if you learn from a moment of, you know, even at worst negligence and and abuse from a parent, but you know, at best, just like parents being doing the best that they can, if you learn in a moment as a young kid that to feel your feelings is somehow wrong or gonna get you in trouble, or like you shouldn't be that emotional about it, you may learn to metaphorically not poop for the rest of your life. You may learn that to digest your emotion, to take a shit, is actually a problem that's gonna get you in trouble. And so, what happens if you were to not poop for 30, 40 years of your life? You're gonna be constipated. That's how a lot of us are emotionally. And so, you know, you had brought up the concept of grief, and uh let's come to that in a second, but what I'll I'll finish. This this rain process helps us get back in the body so that we can actually get our system back online, start to pay attention to and allow our system to digest these big emotions, this energy that's in our system that we're carrying around, we're not paying attention to, but is like really running the show. And then there's these other layers that help us, you know, the inquiry process helps us kind of get more in touch with the belief system, the subconscious belief, and the nurture is really about you know, loving and integrating compassionately your inner child, the parts of ourselves that we really criticize. Criticism resistance doesn't help move things along, it helps solidify things. So it's about helping open up the system with loving energy. And you know, you'll like this, the body doesn't know if it's your mom touching you and holding you or if it's your own hand, and it will release oxytocin. So a big part of the N is teaching people to touch themselves lovingly. So I put a hand on my cheek when I'm hurting, and that will release oxytocin when I do it with like love and care, as if I'm speaking to the parts of myself that have been, you know, wired to say, Oh yeah, I'm good, even though I'm dying on the inside, it actually helps them open up, it actually helps that move.

Mitchell:

You just said there was about 10 things I wanted because I mean that was I I feel like people should rewind that part and listen to it. I mean, all the way from the first thing I was thinking about with relationships, what I noticed, and it was you know, through I'll be vulnerable, going to couples therapy. It changed my life because what I realized in this process was at least for me, and I think it's relatable for other people. If we don't work to love and nurture those parts of us that lead to conflict, we will essentially, in this culture, move on, go on hinge or bumble and just find someone else, and it's amazing. And you got that dopamine, and then three months later, well, she's an asshole, or what and it's like, wait, maybe there's something that I'm bringing to the table that I will find these issues come out in every relationship forever if I don't work to figure out my shit. And that was like a powerful thing through therapy that I realized was uh don't keep seeking, don't think that there's better out there if you're the central thing that keeps coming up in relationships, right? And so that was a huge point for me.

Quiggy:

That's that's stewardship. You going to couples therapy, I think it's looked at in the wrong way. And this is something that you know I picked up from an Esther Perel podcast at some po at point, who's you know, way more brilliant and and studied and uh resourced to me when it comes to relationships. She's she's the she's the guru. That's the wrong, we have the wrong view of it. Like to go to couples therapy is the last resort, it's a shameful, it means something's wrong, but it's actually everybody should be going to couples therapy from the fucking beginning.

Mitchell:

Thank you. I literally say this now, and I did feel a little bit of shame right away, like there's a brokenness, and it's like we're a work in progress. I once had a patient say that to me early on in my career because I was like, Well, you know, we're all kind of broken, and it was a it was not the right thing to say, and she corrected me. She said, We're a work in progress, and I think about that all the time now, and that was where I was at in my relationship. Is like I want strong communication, emotional connection, safety, you know, all of that kind of stuff. And I finally came to it at 36 years old. Now I'm 37. But it was like, wait, if I keep having the same issues in relationships, there's probably something that I'm bringing to the table. And it was, I mean, I was I actually spoke about it to friends and stuff, but you're right, it was a little bit shameful. Now I send so many people to this therapist because it's like I think every it's great to have a referee, maybe, who has 35 years of seeing this, has you know, raised children, successful relationships, all of that, and sh helping. I mean, one time we had a big argument in front of her, and she was like, Wait, and it sounds corny on the outside, but so powerful. She let us talk and communicate, and she's like, Okay, the words you're saying, Mitchell, are fine, but you hear the way you're saying it, condescending, uh critical, all these things. And I think a lot of that comes from trying to be perfect and projecting my own issues onto somebody else, and that was a huge part of my spiritual or emotional growth was realizing my part in this is due to wounds that I have that I'm not dealing with.

Quiggy:

Yeah, and it was hard, yeah, and it's really beautiful to lean into that because it feels so personal, and what I really want to say is that it's not personal, it's not personal.

Mitchell:

What do you mean?

Quiggy:

When you really when you really zoom out, and this is a this is a spiritual mindfulness view, and I I also in my experiences of the truth of reality that you know we're all through cause and effect a product of our inheritance, you know, and and you can say this is my that's what we do, we my, we ego, this is me, mine, my problem, my wound, my work, my you know, but and and there's there's truth to that, you know, there's a paradox, like there, there it's your shit, you know, and and there's self-responsibility required in order to address that in a meaningful way. You can't be in blame mode, it's not mine, it's yours, it's not mine, it's yours. Like you're you're the problem. Like for you to say, you know, actually, I'm I'm the common element in all my relationships is a healthy realization of healthy ego. And for me, you know, the stepping stone that I take in the work that I do is is you can't get to, I don't, and again, it's kind of coming back to that wounded healer sort of pathway. Like, I don't think that you can get to the self-responsibility in a truly profound and powerful way where you're not just ruled by perfectionism and fear of what other people think of you, and you really can truly step into your element, you start with self-compassion. You start with recognizing these things are just coming up. These emotions, these this trauma that I've inherited was something that was installed in me when I was a little innocent child who had no choice in the matter. And yeah, and we all we all carry that. And I, you know, something I see just as the world rages and gets so fucking personal and so angry at each other is we're missing out the point. And I really see this in the way that men and women get in conflict. And it's not that there isn't real true harmful behavior out there that people need to take responsibility for. And it sounds like you're describing the ways in which like your behavior can be, you know, not moving towards greater intimacy. And I resonate with that. I get critical, like, you know, I get won up and put down and want to be big because I'm trying to protect myself. Where did I get that from? I got that from my family upbringing. Where do they get that from? Well, they got that from generations, you know, generational trauma is some real shit, and cultural conditioning is some real shit, and we're all functioning with all of this wiring that's running us unconsciously. And I think when you first start to awaken to it, you want to take it really personally. And and and, you know, again, there's a there's a balance of like, I need to take response, I get to take responsibility. This comes back to that care. We care, we don't want to hurt people. You know, the Dalai Lama says this is like at the end of the day, everybody just wants to love and avoid pain. This is simple human condition.

Mitchell:

Yeah.

Quiggy:

And we wanna, we do care about others and we don't want to hurt the people we love, and yet we do it over and over again reactively, unconsciously. And when you're in that state, it's like a fugue state. And so how powerful it is to have a therapist there with you in real time to be like, yo, hey, I just want to point out, I want to give you the data that like you, you know, like you were too far back from the microscope to actually see the cells on the plate, and to have the therapist in real time be like, you see what's happening? Wow, I mean, so potent for you to then bring into your world and recognize I don't want to harm my partner. And it's not personal. I learned this, we inherited this. And I really, really what I want to say finally about this is we're so in our ego brain collectively right now that we're forgetting how in this together we really are, and how impersonal a lot of the wounding that we um, if we're stewarding responsibly, we have the responsibility to heal individually, collectively, it's so impersonal, you know. It's been handed down by years of many, many years of the inherent vulnerabilities of the human condition being chucked into an increasingly complex system. And I think my first step is to find a better relationship with shame. Shame is important, it tells us something about a moral ethical value that we should pay attention to, but we're way over ashamed right now. And I think when we start to loosen that, there's actually then the space in our system and our nervous system to look at things more honestly and be like, whoa, actually, damn, like I see where I got this, and I see now that as an adult, I don't want to continue doing this. And that's how I approach my work in relationships, and I think that that's how we need to collectively start to shift through self-love and self-compassion as the ingredient that's that's missing right now.

Mitchell:

I feel like so often, you know, step one is recognizing, realizing it, and then the next, you know, I always say this to people is like, okay, we know this, now what are we gonna do about it? That's right. I don't believe that knowledge is power. I believe putting the knowledge into action is power. Um, so I constantly think about that. And what we know about toxins like PFOS, certain environmental uh contaminants, they're transgenerational. We know that a mother pregnant with a daughter, not only will the mother be impacted by certain chemicals, but the daughter will, and the daughter's eggs will. So you're seeing these three levels of transgenerational environmental trauma physically based on what the mother is exposed to in our toxic world. And it's you're talking about toxic emotions and and the fear of leaning into difficult emotional work. I see the same thing physically, yeah. Where it's easy to use plastic storage utensils and Teflon nonstick pans and uh not filter your water and don't pay attention to your moldy carpet from the pipes that burst six months ago, and literally all of that gets passed down to our children as well. A lot of these chemicals. So it's like it's an expression of like the mind and the body being affected by these. The other thing I think so often we get confused guilt and shame. And I I had it explained to me when I was younger because I dealt with a lot of shame that shame can be incredibly unproductive if we don't move it forward, but guilt can help us, and maybe I'm wrong on this, but guilt can help us see where we could improve, and shame can be very much like stuck in neutral if you don't do anything with it. Because a lot of us we're just filled with it, but then we feel self-conscious, scared, we go in, we become emotionally constipated. I love that. Um, so I mean, what do you think? Like, how do we start to move forward with shame? Because we all have it.

Quiggy:

Yeah. Well, I wanna I wanna just come back to the first thing you said, and then I'll then I'll answer that. Uh, I that's so powerful that you see that in the microscope, that the toxins are passed down. And, you know, I I speak sort of about nebulous, speculative things. I mean, there's there's really great people doing science in their approach to spirituality. I mean, Joe Dispenza's, you know, a guy who's really trying to like, how do we make this tangible? Because, you know, scientific reasoning and and data is really valuable in terms of belief and understanding. And, you know, not saying you have to uh everything that I believe is something that I've seen, or like, but to have something tangible that you share about the toxins is really, really valuable to hear. And and what I'll say just to take that a step further is like even if you're not inheriting the exact like emotional conflict pattern, if your system is filled with these extra stressors, you're already a hop, skip, and a jump closer to nervous system, to parasympathetic or sympathetic nervous system activation, to limbic system hijack. And so whatever patterns you learned, whatever patterns have cemented for you to protect yourself, whether it's fight, freeze, fawn, or flea, and whatever special concoction of those you know got, if you have that extra stress in your system, again, which is like I think what I want to hammer home is that that stress is literally inherited. It's literally like you have this extra stress. It's our responsibility to figure out what do I do with this stress, and also like recognize wow, I have all this extra stress in my system that puts me closer to limbic system activation. And that's not something that I chose. That's not something that I'm personally creating. Once I start to become aware of it, in a guilty sense, is important because I think something that has really valuable helped me been valuable to help me understand the difference between the two guilt is about behavior, whereas shame is about identity. You know, when we talk about I'm guilty because I raised my voice and I was contemptuous there. Shame is I'm a contemptuous person. And again, this comes back to what we're trying to kind of like suss out and separate is that our our behaviors a lot of the times are reactive. The most conscious of us run around unconsciously most of the day. You know, like it's so humbling to be trained by teachers who have been meditating for 30, 40 years and they're like, yeah, we're we're fucking unconscious a lot of the day. And then we wake up, we're like, whoa, you know, so like your behaviors are actually most of the time, and it's not to say that we can't become more conscious, and you can be more conscious behaviorally and change your behaviors. There's all the science behind that, and you can be present and meditate when you're doing something, you can wash the dishes and be present. But a lot of times we're driving our car, you know, unconsciously. We're behaving unconsciously. And so guilt is really important to want to, you know, to try to lean yourself, I think, towards guilt. If you do something really harmful, I think shame is an important mechanism because it's like an alarm bell that morally you're out of alignment. You know, and again, I think that comes back to it's my belief that deep down, you know, there are definitely violent divisive tendencies in the human condition. I think when we are that's coming from our limbic system. When we are in safety and in regulation, we actually desire intimacy and connection and interdependency. And I think when we're deferring to that as our virtue signal, or not as our virtue signal, but the the signal for the virtue that we're aiming for, shame can help us get back into the right relationship with that, you know, like a compass. Like a compass, 100%, you know, and there's been moments totally, and so we need a little we I think we need, and this is this is something I got from a teacher that I was on retreat with recently. And like, oh yeah, I can see how shame has a a mechanism that's supportive, it's just an overdrive. Guilt, I think, is a little bit easier to work with because it's really the identification that is most painful. When we say, wow, I screwed up there. There's impermanence baked into that. There's recognition of like, but I can do it differently now.

Mitchell:

It's not my actions.

Quiggy:

It's a growth mindset. My single action. Totally. It's a growth mindset. It's I can learn how to do this, I haven't figured this out yet, versus shame is that quicksand. Shame is that cementing of it's the ego trying to become more of what it thinks it is because it thinks that that's safe. And the ego in the limbic system would prefer the comfortable pain over the unknown of courage, the unknown of possibility and and and the world that you traverse into to change your behaviors. So shame really wants to keep us stuck, and that's why it's super painful because there's part of us online who's like, I don't want to do that. But if we're ashamed, we're actually just cementing around that behavior, that harm, or whatever we're ashamed about, unless we can figure out how do I like, you know, and this is what rain and the work that I do helps us do, is like start to like shake up that cement a little bit.

Mitchell:

It's familiar, right?

Quiggy:

It's familiar.

Mitchell:

It's something that I think about when you're talking with impermanence, is and we recently made an Instagram post about this because it became obvious at a at a conference we were just at. But I have a saying that if you go to somebody asking for help and they run a bunch of blood work, they listen to you for five, ten minutes, and then they say, Congratulations, you know, nothing's wrong with you, that that's actually harmful to the human to know that something's wrong, and then to have a someone there seeking safety and care from to tell them nothing's wrong. What I prefer, and that's what we made a post about, is it's so powerful if I get to a point where I'm not sure what's going on, say that. And that's the courage that you speak about. But I just maybe this is like a gift that I have is like I naturally always do that. I didn't think there was I didn't think about it. It was just like I'm okay saying I'm not sure what's going on, but like let's make some changes, let's find you, send you to the neurologist, let's send you to a cardiologist, let's get some more data, let's get an MRI, you know, let's talk to a mentor of mine who's an expert in immunology. Like, we can jump on a call with him because at the end of the day, I don't want to play God with the people I'm helping. I want to show them I'm on this path with you. I care so much about you getting better that it's not about me. You know, I'm a conduit of information and I'm here to provide support and honesty. And I say that in every new patient visit. I will tell you where I'm unsure of things, and I will tell you where I'm making educated guesses, and I will tell you when I'm incredibly confident about what we know. And it it takes a certain level of humility, I think, to admit that because you know, anybody in my field, we do kind of get into it wanting to kind of know everything. You know, and you see how much I study and study, you know, hundreds of hours a year of continuing ed when I need 15 a year. And it's it's because I'm partly trying to understand myself, but also because I want to give more hope. I'm a hope dealer.

Quiggy:

I want to gas you up for a second because if you're listening right now and you're not sure if you're gonna switch doctors from whatever, whoever the hell your doctor is right now, this is this is why this is your guy, because that there's there's unmatchable support or there's unmatchable rapport. And this is something that I immediately noticed, you know, in my first foray into the functional medical world. What he just described is true intimacy. Honesty is intimacy, and that's actually safety. He's grabbing my arm right now, squeezing me. And that is what we need in our health care, emotional, mental, and physical health. We need honesty because our nervous system knows when we're dropped. Our nervous system knows when it's too uncomfortable for our doctor to say, I don't know. And, you know, this is something we talk about in mindfulness practice is really cultivating don't know mind. You know, like like life is a fucking mystery. I don't we don't know what's gonna happen after, but we're constantly in this predictive mindset, and that's the ego, trying to prevent what's coming from being harmful. And so we're constantly in the future mind trying to figure it out. And the dumbest people are the people who say they know and and are and are and are stubborn about it. They're identified with their belief. Yes, their belief is is attached to their identity, and if their belief were somehow proven wrong, it would totally shake up their sense of self. And so when you can start to cultivate all of these things are are you know really the same kind of energy. When you can suss out shame from guilt, when you can start to cultivate don't know mind, you're actually stepping into a greater space of truth and reality, you know, because sometimes we don't know. We don't know, and and honestly, you know, I just was on a seven-day death contemplation retreat, and and part of that practice is you don't know. And I don't think we take that, that's not integrated well as a as a as a virtue in our culture, where yeah, we've been taught to think that to posture ourselves, we have to know. You know, and like uh the the the allopathic world, you specialize and you've got to be the big boss on this thing and have all the answers. And actually, when you know, I see you study and you're like going down rabbit holes and trying to figure shit out. And my partner's this the same way. She was in, you know, uh Alexander Durgan. She was in nursing for a long time. She has a great scientific background, but she's I don't know the answer to this. I'm gonna figure it out. I'm gonna figure it out. But there's like a genuine curiosity in an there's an there's an honesty required to be like, I don't know, that actually gets you to the place where curiosity can guide you to to a greater understanding. And that is so essential and so appreciated. Whether people know it or not, it's felt in the nervous system. Because when you're like, I don't know, and either I'm gonna drop you, or like your person's, your patients like, but I feel terrible, they just feel invalidated, you know. And how many situations like that leave you in more chaos and more confusion around your health than to have someone be honest with you with so much care as you have and and a commitment to find the best answer that you can, to be like, actually, we did this didn't help us figure things out, and that's okay. But here are the steps that we're gonna take. Because sometimes it's not like we know the answer. Sometimes it's like, what are the steps that we're gonna take to get more into the probability matrix, the possibility matrix to maybe get to something that's more conclusive? And that's really powerful, and that to me is true intimacy because you could just be like, we don't know, and you're okay, you know, which is probably feels like a fucking lie to some people. And to say I don't know, I think is really powerful and honest in a way that um creates rapport that is healing in its own right.

Mitchell:

Yeah, the only promise I make is I will try really hard, I will listen, and I will do my very best. And again, I'll tell you when I'm unsure of things. I think thank you for that. I appreciate that. I uh how you respond to low-risk interventions like lifestyle change helps me understand more about you. And you know, I always say people reach out to me on Instagram, like, I want to run like a full blood panel. And it's like, do you realize that the lab core ordering database? I could spend like $50,000 and it's still not an MRI, it's still not a stool test, it's still not, you know, all these other things. Like, we need to make guesses, educated guesses at some point, and then just create foundation, create mechanisms that are healthy to push you closer to health, and then how you how that does for you, we meet again, that tells me what to do next. Like anybody that I believe that if you go to somebody and they send you like a six-month protocol, they've stopped thinking. They stopped thinking on day one. So, what happens if you get diarrhea on day three? Well, stick to the plan. Sometimes, yes, stick to the plan for a little bit, but there needs to be malleability and flexibility in how you treat somebody because humans are so changeable. Day to day is so different, and that's you gotta get my partner on the podcast.

Quiggy:

She you guys would have a great conversation because she does she does Holman Whole Pelvic care, and she, you know, came from the the pelvic care work world where it was very procedural, you know, and she's really created a uh not a procedure, but a but a skill in art called listening touch. And that's what's really what you're describing, which is like if we're too stuck to procedures, we're gonna miss out on all the and this kind of comes back to the body. It's really all about listening. Like, listening is love, listening is powerful, listening is impactful, listening is intimacy, listening is connection. Like, am I really listening to life? Am I really listening to the information? Am I really listening to my body? And then responding to that versus like a procedure, a six-month procedure is just like, let's just go with this because it's worked before, but we're not actually going to pay attention to what happens to you. Very unique human being with a unique set of parameters that make you who you are and what's going on for you. Eh, this has worked before, you know, instead of like actually listening. Like the listening.

Mitchell:

That's interesting because that's a fallacy that a lot of clinicians fall into, is they remember the times that this rigid protocol worked, and then that's what they go forward with, and they ignore the times it didn't. I'm naturally, maybe it's my pragmatic view. I naturally only really sit at night and think about the people that I'm not able to help the way I want to. So that's where the constant drive comes from. Is I'm not really focused on, you know, and I have to talk to Kate sometimes. Like it's been a good last few weeks, like really complicated health p pictures improving drastically, helping couples get pregnant when they've struggled for years and failed IVF and all these things. And I had to force reflection with her in the last couple weeks, like Kate. Things are going pretty well. I was actually texting her last night and I said, We are making a difference. We got like a a couple Google reviews. I was out walking my dogs and I saw one come through, and I was like, Kate, we're making a difference. Like we forget that because I tend to focus on like I need to do more to help these people and be more. But that pause and that reflection of like, wait, yes, for sure get better. But holy shit, Mitchell. Yeah. Like you're inserting courage into these cases of these people that are dropped by their specialists, and you know, again, go to the hematologist. Well, you don't have cancer, you don't have blood cancer, so thumbs up, you know, and it's like it does, it takes that constant striving to be like, well, then what is this? If it's not gonna kill you, it's certainly eroding your your resilience in this world. Okay, I'm trying to be respectful of the time.

Quiggy:

I'm good. I can I can go a little bit late.

Mitchell:

Okay, because I did want to talk about one thing that I think I'd love to get your perspective on. Can we talk about codependency?

Quiggy:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mitchell:

So because that's a I think a lot of us have misconception. It's like when people say I trauma bonded. Yeah. I don't know if they truly know what that actually means. I think codependency, narcissism, these terms get thrown around a lot in a colloquial way. Yeah. But I would love to get your perspective on codependency, how it shows up in relationships, and just yeah, anything you have to say about that.

Quiggy:

Yeah. You know, I'm not gonna do it full justice here. Uh I'll I'll offer my sort of perspective on it, which is, you know, informed from a Buddhist lens which looks at the root of suffering to arise really from clinging, from attachment. And so I look at codependency not as a black and white, you're either codependent or you're not, but more along the kind of like guilt-shame spectrum of like we all have codependent behaviors. We all have moments where our, you know, child consciousness, our limbic system is triggered, and where codependency is gonna be something that we more are likely to defer to in varying degrees, you know, the the less sort of integration you've had with your trauma, the more codependent your relationships are gonna be across the board. Of course, everybody's gonna have different spaces where, you know, they're gonna have uh more sort of codependent tendencies. Uh what I'll say is though, you know, I look at that as like you can have a codependent relationship with alcohol. Like addiction is a codependency, you know, and I really like, you know, what again, Peter Cron, one of my idols, said, you know, you're really looking for in alcohol, you're looking for connection, you're looking for relief, you're looking for the intimacy and the interdependency that is, you know, really our nature that that we've lost track of. And so we can be really codependent with our pets, we can be codependent with um certainly our romantic partners, but we can be codependent in a lot of uh ways that maybe uh are are are more loosely defined than than the than the relationship conversation.

Mitchell:

So is codependence it doesn't have to be a two-way street then because alcohol doesn't know what it's doing.

Quiggy:

Ah, that's a good thing.

Mitchell:

Or like with your pet, it's like I always I guess pictured it to be like a two-way thing.

Quiggy:

What I'm what's coming through for me is that you know, is it possible that there's a partner who has a really, really um codependent relationship with their partner and the other person is secure and easy? I I would I would I would be hard pressed to imagine an example of that. You know, there's a concept called the Imago dialogue, which is which is kind of like the law of attraction in relationships, which is that we attract people on the same we attract and then reactively choose. So I want to come, I want to come to the the choice part because that's really where I think it gets gets to be most relevant, most important. But we we unconsciously, until we start to wake up to our patterns, to our psyche, to the parts that really run the show and pull the strings, and that's our inner child, our wounding, our trauma, our emotions unprocessed, our grief unprocessed. We choose reactively, we choose unconsciously, and we tend to choose people who are going to, you know, through the sort of like perceptual bias of our psyche, which is looking to confirm itself in the world around us, we tend to choose partners who will reciprocate the wounds that we have, who will be on a similar level of consciousness and integration as we are. And so that's why relationships can be so powerful to transform, but they're also the most challenging, especially early on when you're choosing like really like traditionally toxic, up and down, codependent relationships. It's because the anxiously attached tends to choose someone who's avoidant or triggers that in each other. And you're not really in the codependency. This is what I'm gonna define. I would say that the codependent sort of layer of the relationship is when with our partners and in our relationships, we're actually reacting from nervous system protection. And so we can simultaneously have a codependent layer of our relationship and also have an interdependent, healthy adult self that's coming online. And I think the mission to create more intimacy, to create more connection, to create more collaboration is to work to integrate and become aware of and find ways to not defer to those patterns of. So I better make sure I do everything I can. People please suppress my needs, like don't piss her off, don't piss them off to make sure that I keep that validation coming through. Cause I'm trying to get that from her, because I don't know how to give that to myself. When you start to learn how to give that to yourself, to get it from support outside of the relationship, and also how to talk about it in a way that's like it's less cemented, you know, it it becomes an opportunity. Really, we want to shift to, and what I what I teach people to shift into is to generosity. It's a relationship that's not I'm trying to get something from, it's I'm here to give. And that includes giving to yourself. In fact, that's what we're missing. Like when you give to yourself, you start to create an exponential effect that allows the part of us again that cares and wants to contribute and impact to then give generously to those you love. And so when you're in that, when you have more of that energy online, it's not that the codependent patterns won't be on, the I'm trying to get something from you will come online. Certainly when life and shit hits the fan and you're stressed and you get into a conflict, those things are going to come up. But you can have more of an integrated conversation about how to work with them in a way that's like generosity sort of wholeness-based. For example, in my partnership, you know, we both have needs for validation. And in past relationships, that would be a really tenuous, stressed thing that my system is on the lookout to get. And for example, even like this past week, my partner's going through, you know, a really big emotional experience. And so she's not as like, I mean, she gassed me up all the time, you know, and it's so nice to hear. And I'm like recognizing in my system my part coming up that's like, oh, in the absence of the the sort of like baseline of being gassed up here, I'm starting to feel a little bit shaky. Codependency would be like, yo, you need to give that to me, and I'm gonna figure out how to make you give that to me because otherwise I'm gonna be okay. Versus now the more integrated self recognizes, like, oh there's something in here that wants to be satiated, and there are actually creative ways in within the village, including via my own adult self, that I can get that for myself met without putting the tax on my partner. The last thing I'll say, and this is a good analogy, is that we tend to think that relationships are 50-50. But how does a 50-50 relationship work when your partner is at 20%? Now all of a sudden you guys have 70% to work with on a hard day or when a family member dies and it's months. Really, we want to aim, and it doesn't need to be perfect, but we want to aim to show up on our relationships whole as close to 100% as we can. Because when you're two 100s working together, building together, then when shit hits the fan and you know you get into that car accident and you're at 20%, like now you have a person who's at 100%, at least at their baseline or 90%, and together you're still at 110%. It's way more workable versus like when we're at 50-50, we're trying to get the other 50% of ourselves from the person, and they're also trying to get the other 50% of themselves from you, and neither of you can give that to yourselves, let alone sustain it for another person. And that's why relationships tank, and that's what codependency is.

Mitchell:

It's relational poverty.

Quiggy:

Woof, banger right there. Yeah.

Mitchell:

You know, that's that's so interesting. You I mean, relationships are such a mirror for us, a mirror to ourselves, and that's what I've learned through the the work that I've done personally, is oftentimes there is a projection happening here from myself, and it's so interesting to because the way you're saying it is much more abstract. I'm a very literal person, and it's like this I'm I don't really I don't listen to our episodes. I'm gonna listen to this one. Yeah, there's so much to be this was heavy, and we've been going. I wanna I wanna bring it home now because I have a lot to think about, and I feel you kind of came in like a like a wave, and I love this, and I so thank you for the energy you brought today. That was a lot, and I know you've got a client call in a little bit, but dude, powerful, powerful stuff, and there's so much for me to think about here, and just the way you can just I'm impressed because I've never seen you in this context, how you can keep multiple ideas going in your head, like a superpower, like you'll say, and I'm gonna get to this later, and you know what you did every time? You did. Like, I don't like that was impressive, like talking into a microphone and keeping your thoughts centered with all that energy you brought. I appreciate you doing this today. I did quickly, and I and okay, everyone listening.

Quiggy:

Well, hold on, I just want to say one thing. I would not be able to do this were it not for you because I mean, shit, when we first started seeing each other, I was so exhausted and I would come, and granted, we're in a little bit better of a lighting situation. You're at your office was a bit um claustrophobic. I like couldn't you were like, I don't know how you saw me as someone that could hold great presence and eye contact. I was like trying to like my nervous system was so shot, you know, and and I mean we we worked pretty extensively together for about two years, and and I mean that was really the the fundamentals to get me to a place where my nervous system is regulated enough that I can even have this conversation and and do these things, which are yes, their skills, their strengths, but I've been able to water them to cultivate to cultivate them to the point where they're growing and they're blossoming, and I can handle this and hold this right now in a powerful way and be present with it in no small way due to you know the way that you've contributed to that. So you've been a big part of my village, we're a village, you know, and like the the spaces where I am and less developed and need support, you know, we can't get that all from one person. We need to learn to give it from our give it to ourselves, give what we can to ourselves, but sometimes we need to learn how to give that to ourselves from other people and also tap into the village, you know. So thank you for being a part of my village. And you know, uh again, I see things through cause and effect and interdependence, and like truthfully, uh, you know, to be here now and speaking the way that I am is in large part due to your care and to your honesty and to your, you know, maybe nights up late thinking about how the hell you're gonna get me to sleep while you're losing sleep. So I hope you're sleeping better.

Mitchell:

Everything's connected, right? Totally. Yeah, and I and I learned, I mean, I remember when I first met you, like I learned so much about the importance of me being calm and centered when someone who needs that comes in the door because I'm I'm a diagnosed individual with ADHD and I don't take medication and I can get pretty pretty high, pretty energetic, you know. So I've had to remember one time we sat outside our clinic and ate sardines together before before our session, you know, and just like really centered ourselves to go in with that energy. And you you've been a great example of I I've thought so much about the way that you approached me when we first met being willing to say, Hey, I'm very stimulated in this room, your cadence, like the way that this interaction is going, and it allowed me to realize there's a lot of people that don't have the courage to say that.

Quiggy:

It was really hard. There are a lot of times that I didn't say it. No offense to you. But I'm the same way. I'm like, uh, you know, and I've really had to learn in my my work to like, you know, this is part of my stewardship, you know, to settle my own nervous system because I can I mean three years ago, again, like in my coaching sessions, I'm way less regulated, you know, I'm so way more regulated now, and and you know, it's uh it's really powerful to just be on that journey as a practitioner to to find that that calm and and commit to to orient to that as much as possible. You don't have to be perfect. Obviously, you're we're we're stressed in our own ways, and um, but yeah, I feel you.

Mitchell:

Yeah, so thanks for showing me that example. Um, you have a this should be coming out next week, and I wanted you to you have an online workshop.

Quiggy:

Yeah.

Mitchell:

What's it called? You can say it.

Quiggy:

Well, I've already dropped several F bombs in this episode, so forgive me for anybody who was offended by by my F bombs.

Mitchell:

So let me go one more here.

Quiggy:

Let me drop one really responsive rather than reactive F bomb here. I have an event coming up on December 9th and 10th. It's online, it's free, it's a two-day event called Unfuckwithable Self-Trust. How to attract a purposeful partnership in six months or less. It's for heart-centered high achievers who are longing for and ready to attract a truly healthy, sustainable, juicy, and purpose-driven partnership. If you've you know been out there and struggling with your love life to really land in a relationship that feels true to you, aligned, in which you can really speak your heart and show up as a whole, self-loving, uh collaborative human in the partnership. This this event is for you. And you can, I think Kate will put the links out, but you can you can find the link to the landing page and learn learn all about it and uh get all the deets. Would love to have you there. I also host a mindfulness class free on uh Monday evenings in downtown Denver at Archipelago, 7 to 815. It's called Coming Home to Us. You can find about that, find out about that on my Instagram as well. And that's all we got right now.

Mitchell:

I love that place. I did a breathwork class there once, and I was totally stone cold silver floating above my body. All right. Yeah, it was amazing. So I love that you're there sharing your gifts. Dude, thank you so much.

Quiggy:

Thank you. This is so much fun.

Mitchell:

Yeah.

Kate:

For more about what we do at the facility, check out our website, www.thefacilitydenver.com. You can also follow us on Instagram at the facility Denver for extra tips and behind the scenes fun and updates on new episodes. Thanks for listening now. Go facilitate your own health.