What is Pirate Soldier King? Chaos & Redemption

This first episode explores both the origin of the book title "Pirate Soldier King" as well as the fundamental change of character that Roberts experienced during his 6 years of imprisonment, including more than 2 years in solitary confinement due to repeated (thwarted) escape attempts.

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Hi there, we're here with Gregory Roberts, the writer of Pirate Soldier King. And we're just going to get into a few things with the author of the book and the liver of the story. So good to see you, Gregory. All right. So one of the things that in reading the book, you have an introduction and you talk about the Fall and Redemption You talk about what kind of story this is. And so......people might be thinking, am I reading a true crime story? Am I reading a prison novel? What is the story that you're telling here, and what's the core focus or what are you most interested in teaching? It certainly has some true crime elements. And I did that just because it's of interest and it's kind of important for the setup, just to realize that there was some very serious federal crimes committed that led to the prison sentence. And then there's a tremendous amount of detail about my time spent in incarceration, which encompassed, I want to say, like at least 12 facilities between detention centers and jails and prisons. as I was held for trial and shuttled between federal districts, because I was charged in two districts, etc. And then COVID happened and so then finally I got to my destination prison. But that's, but I think that's kind of just the story and the setting. But what I'm trying to communicate is the opportunity that it gave me to really kind of consider my life choices up to that point and to see what I was doing in the world and to give me a chance to plan to correct those and to really make a massive course correction in my life. And perhaps a cautionary tale as well for anyone who thinks that like crime is cool or something because certainly part of the reason I take first of all, I take full responsibility for my choices, like 100%. And I loved Point Break. And I was like, I'm gonna rob banks and surf. That's it. Like, sounds good. And when the FBI finally gets me, I'm gonna jump into a wave and never be seen again. So it sounded, it looked really good on the screen. Oh, and skydive too, I forgot. Yes, definitely skydive. But the reality of it is there's, at least me personally, I did not find the life of crime to be a very pleasant lifestyle. And what were you thinking it would be? mean, you talk about it is a cautionary tale and you tell the readers don't even think about it. So what, why did you put that in the book to make sure that people don't even think about it and they do follow the law. so what is the the last thing I want to be is a glorification of sticking it to the man or something. I robbed banks for selfish reasons and I'm not proud of it and I feel like it put, I was putting a desire for monetary wealth ahead of relationships to put it quite simply and that had consequences in my life and continues to have consequences in my life, my family relationships and things that are still healing. So, you know, there are easier ways, there are much easier ways to make money. And there's probably better ways to build quality relationships. This is the path that I chose and the path that I went down. again, I hope that there's some, I'm sure that there's some learning in there. Again, the prison portions specifically, which are the majority of the book, I was kind of a stranger in a strange land in that environment. It was not something that was in my life plan. Right. And I ended up, because it was a federal crime and because of my multiple escape attempts, I was classified as a flight risk and as a high security inmate, so I ended up being sent to some of the more serious facilities in America. Well, one thing that I think is interesting that I'm picking up on is talking about healing. Then when you think about this book and what you hope that it will provide for people, but also for yourself and your relationships, because you bring that up a lot. You talk about your kids. You talk about the relationships that you sacrificed for doing something that's more selfish. So thinking about this book and writing this book, because you're really putting yourself out there in terms of telling the story. So what do you hope? to get from it personally and would you help the world to get from it? Personally Personally, it's just part of a platform. I feel like I have a lot of messages for people. Prior to my bank robbery career, I was a serial tech entrepreneur. We did a lot of AI work before AI was what it is today. And I have a pretty good bead on that. And... I don't think that the world is ready for AI at all. The things that happen in the next 10 years, maybe even the next three years, are going to be seismic. And so I have some pretty strong messages about that, about, and it comes back to the same things, like what's important? Human relationships, face to face, physical health, you know, just not working on a computer, you know, not pushing numbers and spreadsheets around. So it kind of goes to what's our life purpose? And I feel I have good guidance on that for people. And then, I mean, I just have confidence that it's such, I don't know, so many people have told me to write the book. I just have confidence that there's parts of the story that will resonate with people that I'm not even clear on. Like, this is my story, I'm trying to be as authentic and truthful as possible in it. And I just am confident that it's, I mean, I'm sure it's interesting. And then I think there's some messages there too that will resonate with different people in different ways. Yeah, I definitely think and we'll get into some of the chapters, but some of the time in solitary where you by yourself kind of contemplating lots of things. I think there's a lot, a lot of richness in some of those chapters, which I'm excited for the audience to be able to dive into. Okay, so we're going to take a divergent path just as something a little like the lighter, maybe more fun part of prison. I don't know if fun, but This one works. Right, there's fun parts. So one thing I found interesting reading the book was you talked about playing chess. And so, and just wanted to get, and you talked about chess as war, which is interesting, but it's also an interesting game. So tell me a little bit about kind of chess in prison. I had no idea people played chess in prison, but that does make sense, know, if you get activity. So tell me a little bit or tell, tell people a little bit about that. part of prison life. Well, for a certain segment of the prison population, chess is very important. yeah, I mean, we get like professional chess magazines in there that like break down all the Magnus Carlsen matches move by move with commentary. it's, people take it very seriously. Now me, I knew the rules of chess. And so when I first saw a chessboard, when I first got into jail actually, I was like, ha ha ha. Like, I'm a smart guy. I'm gonna whoop some ass in chess. And I got destroyed. I mean, I got taken to school. And I think I lost my first 20 games. And I was like, am I stupid? You know, like, I was like, how is this possible? So I had my people send me in a book called Chess for Dummies, you know, and I was like, okay, like, this is gonna get me some principles. And I think I eked out one win in the next 10 games. And then I got pretty serious, and then I just started asking people, was like, what's the deal? And I asked people who I felt were the best players, there's a pecking order and you figure it out pretty quick, because the better players won't even play amateurs, they won't bother. So yeah, and then I started taking it pretty seriously. I got into solitary. And there we could actually play more chess in solitary than I could in a general population because we all made our own boards and just yelled the moves under the doors. So we just be like sitting there by the door like B1 to B6. Queen takes knight. And then the worst part would when you said that and somebody's like, my knight's not on B6. I'd be like, no. Like, what are you talking about? But yeah, so we would like, so everyone have their own board, but we'd move each other's pieces and play that way. And then I could be playing like, I don't know, 12 games a day. yeah. And I, and again in solitary. I was only allowed to have two books, a Bible and a dictionary. I befriended one of the guards and I had my people, so I had these chess books sent in but they wouldn't give me any of them. They were like, yeah, we're putting in your property but you can't have them because you're in solitary. You can only have a Bible and dictionary. So I had this like brainstorm and I called up one of my people on the outside. said, look, find me a book that's called like the Bible of chess or something and send me the chess Bible. And they did. And it came in, the guard opens it and he goes, what's this? I go, that's my Bible. They give it to me. It's like, okay, okay, Robert, here you go. And I immediately ripped off the cover and made a new cover out of paper and wrote Bible on it in really big letters. But that was a really good book, actually. What did you learn in the Bible of chess? Yeah. I mean, I just learned your foundational strategy and like, mean, was just, chess is kind of like this infinite ladder of skill where like, you're better than a whole bunch of people, but the people who are better than you are like 10 times better than you or a hundred times better than you. So, um, we do handicaps, like where if someone was really much better than we'd like take it, take a pawn off the board or maybe even like take a Bishop off the board. And then one Russian guy came in and, and when, a new person comes into the tier, everyone chants like new meat, new meat, like, like we're going to eat this person. And he was like, man, I've already done six years in the feds. I ain't worried about you all. And he had this strong Russian accent. And I was like, do you play chess? And he just started laughing. like, I was the best person in the whole prison I was in. I was like, OK, sure, buddy. Yeah, of course you are. And then he goes, and who's the best person here? And it wasn't me. So it was this black guy named Champ. champs like I'll kick your ass you know and I'll I'll bet you just out of the gate like three meals you know that like I'm gonna eat your next three meals when I when I kick your ass in this chess game the rush was like sure buddy let's go and he made him in like I don't know I want to say like 18 moves or something it was he destroyed him and uh no the Russian beat champ yeah and uh And we were all just like, damn, and Champ was really mad. Like he was, because he also lost three meals and they were starving us anyways. But yeah. That's funny. how did you, you built some relationships. You talked about how you taught your celly how to play chess. Yeah. well he wasn't, he wasn't, I taught him how to play chess actually in solitary and then we ended up being cellies later. Yeah, and then we ended up fighting over chess game. yeah, yeah, he was a fun guy and I just taught him basic moves and he actually got pretty good. He got so like. I I could normally beat him, but he was within shooting range of me, and sometimes he could beat me. So it was fun. and you're saying you made the chest board out of soap? How do you actually have a chest board in there? Yeah, so we were allowed to have paper and pencils. I mean, well, I think like two, 30 sheets of paper and two pencils, I think. Like golf, they were golf pencils. And so initially if you would just like tear up the paper and, you know, write on each piece, like pawn, king and stuff, but I'm kind of artistically bent. So I like wanted to say a little more, and also like, We'd have the pieces of paper on top of a paper board. And like when they would turn on the AC systems, like these huge gusts of wind would come under the door slot and it would blow all the pieces off the board. So I was like, I'm not going to have that happen again because it just wrecks the game. then you try, but people take the game seriously. So you're trying to remember where the pieces were and, and what the moves were. So I was like, all right. So I just saved up a bunch of soap and like basically like made these cool drawings of all the pieces and put it on the top of the chunks of soap. So I had like little cubes of for my pieces and they were heavy and they didn't get blown around when the AC came on. funny what you one of the things you talked about you said that some of the biggest fights happened because of chess so mine. Yeah, not not not normally, but yeah, like I would just lose myself sometimes like I Mean I tried to learn prison etiquette, which is basically like don't insult people, you know, don't offend people but but I get excited sometimes that'd be like checkmate bitch and and it just like that does not go over well at all and with the guy who I taught chess when we were cellies. We were on lockdown for a long time and I didn't say bitch but I was like, I I just delivered it with such force and confidence and that he was really offended and he just exploded and ripped his shirt off and stormed around for a little bit and then he just like, and he was a boxer. Like, I mean, this guy was totally stacked built. And then he just like, just, I mean, he was trying to, he was like, you can't talk to me and not fight me. And I was like, no, ain't fighting you, man. Like, you know, that's, that's not my style. Like I'm a lover, not a fighter. was like, I had not been in a fight yet in, in prison. And, and he was like, look, I'll give you a free punch. I was like, nope. He's like, I'll give you two free punches. I was like, nope. He goes, I'll give you 10 free punches, let's go. I should have taken him up on that for real. But I was like, nope. And at time, nope was coming out of my mouth, he just, and he hit me so hard that my head hit the cement wall behind me and I immediately got KO'd and I woke up like in just a puddle of blood on the floor and I had no idea what was going on. I was like, I, I thought my head was against the wall and I was like, why is there blood everywhere? Like what's going on? And I was like, there was this automatic thing in me like just get up, get up, you know, start swinging. It doesn't matter. Just get up and swing. And I just like forced myself up like a robot and just started flailing and punching the guy. And a few seconds later, the guards busted the door open and put us both in cuffs and slammed us in the ground and et cetera, et cetera. But yeah, from then on I was like, I'm going to be a little kid. I'm going to be like, checkmate. I don't need to say it. Sometimes I'm not even gonna say checkmate. I'm just gonna be like, bup. Yeah. huh. Well that, mean, so it's interesting. I'm going down a different tangent, but you talked about how you met with a preacher and, or I don't know, as a pastor or preacher, and you're talking about this idea of turn the other cheek and you're really trying to be like a good human and, you know, take Christ into your heart and all of that. And then how does, and figuring out how that squares with fighting in prison. So you want to talk about that a little bit? Yeah, a little. I think I'd rather talk about chess a little more. All right. curious because the chess getting into fights and then, we're okay. Well, were you in the turn your other cheek mode of Gregory Roberts when you said, I don't want to hit you. Like, was that your mentality is like, you've never been in a fight before except for that. But not in prison. That was your first fight in prison. a fight in a cell, which is basically all metal and cement. It's like nothing but hard edges and sharp edges. And it's very small. And there's, I mean, you look at it like an MMA fight and there's like the floor is padded. And those chain link fences on the side are like flexible. Like you slam up against them, it's okay. If you slam up against a concrete wall or more likely against like a quarter and steel bedpost, you know, I mean, that can mess you up enough right there. Like it's just a very dangerous place and there's no exit. There's no escape and there's no safety. Like people get killed in prison fights all the time. So, you know, mean literally just they kill their celly and stuff them under the bed and then they're found four days later. I swear this this is, happens. Yeah, because they're in lockdown. Wow, okay, that's crazy. Okay, so did you ever have any chess, like actual championships that you organized or did any famous chess players come to prison to play with you guys? No, no, but I would say that there was definitely like master level players in the federal prison. mean, there's people there who have been playing in prison and studying the magazines for like 20 years. And so it wasn't so much tournaments. mean, we had little tournaments in solitary just for fun. But on the yards, on the normal yards, it'd be more like the best players are just set up on a table. And there was only like three chess boards per unit. So three chess boards for like, what, 128 men. So they were scarce quantities. In fact, one of the highest honors I got was a guy who's gonna be the... His name is Boy George. He was like a major New York gangster. got put in when he was like 22. I think he's on year 31 now or 32, but he's doing life. And he was kind of one of my mentors at Beaumont. And when I first got to Beaumont, we were on lockdown. So you'd have conversations through the vents. You could do under the door for like your neighbors, but if you wanted to talk between floors or something, you'd shout through the vents. So we'd like stand up on top of the lockers and be like, hey, George. And so my celly was all excited and he's like, hey. And he goes, I got a guy here, Phoenix. They call me Phoenix. And he's like a grand master. He's going to kick your ass in chess. And I was like, all right. You He was like, he was excited that I, he's like, George loves chess. He's gonna, he's gonna love playing with you. Well, like five minutes later, you know, we get a fishing line under our door and I pull on it. There's like five American chess magazines. And I started looking at it I'm like, my God, if this guy actually reads these, this is way beyond my level. Like, like I said, there's the Carlson games, the Nakamoto and stuff. And I'm like, I can't even understand the commentary on these things. Like it's beyond me. And immediately George is shouting at the Vance. He's like, yeah, look at page 32. Isn't that like the best game ever? And I'm like, yeah, that's a great game. Yeah. He goes, well, as soon as we get out, we're playing. I'm like, okay. How did you do against this guy? So he has, he's like a real gangster and he has like the whole corner of the tier is like his little private office. So when they finally opened the doors, like I think it was like 20 days later, you know, he sets up, he's got a little table on his chest more and he's like, all right, Phoenix, let's go. I'm like, all right. So I played like really fast and hard. There's a thing called simplification where you just trade pieces ferociously. So in the end you basically have like, King, rook, and three pawns each. And all the other pieces are off the board. You've sacrificed your queens, the bishops are gone. And so we just played hard and fast. I could kind of tell like he was gonna do well and I was like, well, how about we just do a draw? Which is like an agreed upon tie. And he's like, yeah, all right, fine. And so, so I was like. You And then we played like three days later and he beat me, of course. And like he beat me, think the 15 games we played. And he was like, I should never given you that draw on the first game. He goes, what was that all about? He goes, you hoodwinked me. I was like, you took it. And I'm telling all these people in tears that we had a draw. Did you ever beat him? I think I might have beat him once, possibly. But again, the biggest honor was he gave me a chessboard with the pieces, which is like impossible. Like you can get in at camps, but at our prison, like it's supposed to be at commissary, but basically they hadn't sold the chessboards at Beaumont for like 10 years. So the only chessboards on the tier, there was probably like, there's probably like 18 chessboards in the whole prison and like they were all like between 10 and 30 years old so like he gave me one of those and i was like yeah that was awesome so then i could play whoever i wanted whenever i wanted And you have one now at home with you? that's cool. So do you follow Chess Now? Do you know who's playing Chess Now? A little bit. I just play on chess.com all the time. It's just like amusement. Yeah, I still find the high level chess, the Grandmaster chess, fairly difficult to follow. I understand all the openings and things, but then... The mid-game is a very complicated structure and it's like fog of war. So it's like there's so much stuff going on and so many... plies and layers that unless you're inside the head of the player, you know, yeah. So no, I don't really watch it for spectator stuff. So when you're in prison and you're playing chess, what can how people play chess say about their character? Because you're just sizing people up and you're like, can I trust this person or do I want to be their roommate or whatever and you're playing chess. So what can you learn about a man playing chess with a man? Well, the biggest thing is people who cheat. Like, like that, that would, that got me so angry. And that almost got me into a couple fights right there. Cause I'd be like, dude, you know, you just moved your knight Like that's an illegal move. And he's like, no, it came from here. I was like, no, it didn't. It came from there. You know, and you can't prove it cause there's no cameras or anything. And you know, and so. You know, he's like you call me a cheater. I'm like, yeah, no I'm not calling you a cheater, but I'm saying you can't make that move like and then then the person would like start grabbing three or four pieces and you know mess up the whole board and So I'd like give people one chance on that. I'd be like, okay look, you know what? I'm not gonna finish playing this game because that's fucked up, but we can start over the game. I'll play again And then if they did it again, I'd be like, okay, I'm just, I'm not playing anymore. Like, I'm just, and I would take that as a judgment of someone's character. Cause I'm like, you know, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna play against someone who cheats. Yeah. Okay, that's interesting. there are different types of people there. People you respected and some people you didn't. I mean, the biggest thing, the fascinating thing for me, and this is actually more in jail than in prison, because there's more serious consequences in prison, but the trash talk on the chessboard is friggin' fascinating. And especially the blacks, the black gangs, like, I mean, they're fairly ferocious. Like, when they take a piece, it's like a... Like, I mean, it's a violent, like, slam and snatch of the piece off the board. And they're just talking shit the whole time. Like, it's a... And you can win a game, you know, by verbal domination. You know, can, can, you can, I'm saying you can, like, scare the person so much. You know, they're like, Because it just takes confidence and boldness. So... I learned that in jail a little bit, that kind of trash talk, and I started doing that trash talk in prison, and people were like, dude, you're gonna like get your ass kicked or worse. Like you need to tone that shit down, like be respectful. And I was like, huh? But that's how they play it, like not in here. Like you got people have been in here for 25 years and they're gonna be here another 25 years. Like this is their town. This is their life. You can't talk. Smack to them. Especially if you're winning. That's good. Okay, that's interesting. So we're gonna switch gears for a little bit and talk about music. So that sound, I mean, I love music, you love music, right? It's just an interesting education or just the way you entertain yourself. So tell me a little bit about how music played into your life in prison or jail or both. I will start with the middle, which is about a year and a half-ish, a little over a year in, I got transported out of Reno to come to California. Like I said, I was facing charges in Nevada and California. So I had to be shuttled between those court systems. and I got put in a private prison called Perump, which is just outside Las Vegas. And I guess it's because it's a private prison, but they like, when you get your initial kit, like here's your blanket, here's your sheets, here's your, you know, your terrible crocs that they make you wear. And here's your shirt and pants. And they're like, and here's your radio. I was like, my what? They got your radio. And here's the batteries for it. And I was like, my God. Like I hadn't heard music in like, in a year and a half. And so I got to my cell and I like put in the batteries and had little earbuds with it. like, I mean, my cell was deep in the prison. was still in solitary and I couldn't get any radio stations. I was like, oh man. But then I got like a little... know, inkling of a song somewhere. And I was like walking around, like trying to figure out where, because the antenna was the thing and how do we do it. And I like sit on my bunk and on the ceiling of the bunk, there's like a drawing and it says, if you want to listen to the radio, line up your headphones along this line. And I was like, and I did it and it worked. And I was like, holy shit, awesome. And there was only one radio station in all Pahrump. And it was like some weird, I mean, you remember college stages growing up, right? They like, like Susie and the Banshees and things. So it was like a college station, but it was just by like hippies or something. And they were playing all like 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s songs, but not normal radio playlists. And it was just surreal. And I was just having the time of my life. And I just listened to that radio for next 24 hours. And I was dancing and singing. I was like, music is life. I was so excited. And I was in ecstasy, actually, just to have that experience. what do you do when you don't have the radio? Because you told a story about how you didn't have the radio and then some people were starting to do their own, you had your own concert series, acapella. Yeah, yeah. Well, it actually started when a guy came into our solitary tier. So in solitary, I think there was up to 16 people in each of those tiers. So eight people on the top floor and eight people on the bottom floor. And a guy came in and it was normal to have like people come in there coming off of meth or heroin and they'd have tantrums and and they mule kick the door. So they'd like, you know, and these are steel doors. So they'd be like, and there's no sound isolation in prisons at all. It's all, like I said, all metal and cement. So when you're smashing a door like that with your heel, like it sounds like explosions. And so this guy comes in, it's like seven at night. We've already had dinner and some people are already sleeping. and boom boom boom I'm like here we go again another freaking meth head you know and but I it it had this rhythm and then it was like boom boom and he was like like like hitting it towards his fist and his knuckles and his elbow and it had this like complex rhythm and then like two or three minutes in he started rapping and he was like really And he was like his mouth up to the corner so we could all hear. And it was like really, he was speaking really fast. It was really cool lyrics. And I was like, wow, that's like really. And he kept the rhythm up the whole time while he's rapping. And so afterwards I was like, fuck yeah, woo! That was awesome. And a couple other people applauded and we were like, what's your name, bro? And he said this. And he's like, yeah, I'm trying to make an album. That's one of my pieces. I was like, you wrote that? He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I got a couple more. We're like, well, do them, do them. We want to hear them. And so he's like, I'll do one more and then we'll get some more tomorrow or something. I was like, okay. And then tomorrow he did another one. And then someone else was like, hey, I got one too. And it was another rapper guy. then it was like this old hippie on our tier. And he was like, and the lights go down in the city. Sun goes down on the bay and he starts singing like Eagles and Journey and I was like, okay and I just started it to like I was like, alright I'll be the DJ and I was like and here we are in WCRJ Reno Prison Radio Next up we have cell 7 And so people lined up and like we'd have like an hour each night where people would like we'd give a concert for ourselves. And yeah, it was pretty cool. Yeah. cool. So did anybody get out and actually do anything like anybody famous? do they... It seems like that... you know, other than a very small handful of people, I have not followed up on the people I met on the inside. It's still a little bit of a raw, I don't know, it's like, like when I was in there, I was like, oh yeah, yeah, I wanna like get together and stuff, and I'm like, I'm back out here, I'm like, you know what? got other things to do. I don't need to go to Compton tomorrow. So I'm sure there was, and there's certainly, especially in rap, long history of people who were in prison and write stuff in there. Well, we could check out your playlist. that was another thing the readers, you have the playlist in the book? Yeah. So what kind of playlist can we go through in your book and what's inspiration for the different playlists that we have here? Well, I will tell you the one that broke my heart was because I would ask my good friends at some point or people I respected or people who made me curious. I'd be like, give me like... So once we got to the real prison, we actually got MP3 players. I mean, we had to buy them. We had to actually bribe to buy them, but we could buy them. And they were like, know, circa like 1999 MP3 players. And this year was 2018-19? From your... Okay. what I'm saying, but you know what? They worked and we could buy songs for $1.50 each and yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like old, old, old school. But I spent a fortune on songs. I think I bought like 1,300 songs. Yeah, because it's like you get, it's like your only power in there. You know, it's like. I can buy music. And then you'd listen to that song like, like, you know, a bunch, like 10 times. And then you'd be like, oh, I want the whole album. And you just, don't know. was, cause I started to think I'm just an addict of like buying, like I don't need $2,000 worth of music, but I was like, you know what? I mean, makes me happy. It's one of the only places I have agency in this place. So yeah, I'm going to have. songs that were like in the anthem, the Phoenix or Roberts or whatever name you had, right? Any anthems that you played over and over again that was, helped you mentally or it just helped. a there was speaker box by I want to say bass nectar, but. I'll have to look it up, but a song called Speaker Box, which was like just a hard driving, like I listened to it when I played chess, I listened to it when I worked out. Like it was an extreme song. There was a great song that was introduced to while in there called First Day Out by Tee Grizzly. And this is where I started to realize how layered rap music is because it's all about a guy getting out of federal prison. actually getting into and then going through and getting out of federal prison. But I wouldn't have, if I had you played that song for me on the streets, I wouldn't have known that. Like everything was slang. And, and there's basically like, there's a whole nother vocabulary in print. Like I feel like even when I was writing the book, I'm like, I want to say what people say in there. But if I write a sentence, you're going be like, what does that mean? You know, what? I have to explain every word. So, like, he's doing his second bid and he'll be out in a minute, you know, or, you know, it's count time. He's going to hit the yard. He's got a green light on him. You know, just all these things are like, you don't want the green light. When someone comes into prison, One of the first things that happens is they check in with their race or their gang and their paperwork is checked. And the paperwork is checked to see if they ratted on anyone, if they're a child molester or a rapist. if they're either of those three things, then they're immediately green-lighted, which means, like, if you see them, kill them. Not kill, but if you see them, beat the holy living crap out of them. And so, like, you don't want to be green lighted. No, had a green light on me. Thank God. Like go, like yeah, to go to jump your ass. Yeah. So it's like, you'd hear it like, yeah, Tommy in unit three just got greenlit. And so we'd like be looking out the window when yard goes, because that stuff happens fast. Like they pop the doors and it's just like, people just run to Tommy's cell and just, like it, it, it, it, it, it's usually in the first like 15 seconds after the doors pop. The doors are all like solenoid. So. Well, in certain... Anyways, so the guards in our prison actually, they unlock the doors, but you're not allowed to push your door open till they call it. So they'd unlock the doors, but they had to keep closed. And then they go, all right, go! And then people just run toward Tommy's cell and kick the shit out of And so that's, but that was some of the lyrics in the song. did you feel yourself as you evolved as a human in prison, change the kind of music you listened to? Yeah, for sure. So how did it evolve? Like what was the soundtrack when you were leaving or like getting towards the end of your prison sentence versus how it started? Well. I was once told that some of the music I liked was a genre called happy gay house. I like that kind of music. It's like poppy, poppy, woo! know, fun, good bass beat. And I definitely, in prison, like got harder and more soulful. There was one song in particular that just about broke my heart. Like I said, I'd asked people what they liked and they were like, well you need to get some Tupac on your playlist. I was like, okay, I don't know Tupac. I mean, I know who he is, but I don't know his music. And he's like, well here's five Tupacs, I'll get these. And there was one he did called Dear Mama, which is Bass, do you know this song? Yeah, listen to it from your playlist. Like, my God, what a Harper. You know, it's basically him going like, like, Mom, you raised me and I just went and went to the streets and still fucked up. you know, but I owe everything to you. And I'm like, listening to this song, like, I mean, I almost felt that for every woman in my life. I was like, like that song is real. And yeah, so that, I would listen to that a lot. Okay. And then how do you still listen to the same music now? Or would you say like your playlist, what's on your playlist now? The happy gay house? What is on there now? like, more like, like, hard driving house. Hard driving house, okay. So you kind of like blend in the two. So you're forever changed in terms of your musical taste. So you've got some grit and some hard driving in there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I still have sometimes and also I should say I have a whole bunch more of like of good Christian music in there now. Like there's some like my experience with Christian music before prison was like, I don't know, like songs that were like Jesus loves you, Jesus is good, you should love Jesus, you know, just goofy ass songs. And there are some extreme Christians in prison. I can almost say I was one of them. But people who just do their Bible like 24-7, like that's their life in prison. People like do their thing in prison because you have time and you don't have bills to pay and you don't have to worry about anything other than violence. So people... once they kind of secure their social structure, they can do their thing. And so I got, yeah, some pretty good, like very soulful, meaningful to me Christian music in there too. So, yeah. Well, we can't wait to take a look at your playlist and then any chess tips, maybe you put those in the book as well. So. Yeah, I gotta get some notes. I did a lot of meditation on like the analogs between chess and life. Chess in business is easy. It's kind of like Art of War but chess and life is a little trickier, but still, it's, yeah, it's a good. Well, we're going to end with one last chess question. chess is all about strategically seeing more moves ahead. So five moves, and Gregory Bauer Roberts is moving on the chessboard. right now, we're playing, but you've got five moves ahead. what's going on in terms of how you're strategizing and what's the fifth move ahead that we're gonna see later. Are you strategizing in the future? If I told you then I'd be giving up my strategy. Ahhhh, oh, okay. That's okay. Don't know the strategy. yeah, can keep it close to the vest? do you have-- I would say the book tour is primary and then actually extracting some messages from this book fairly explicitly that I'm not going to explicitly put in the book, that I feel confident talking to people about and in the context of this AI Tsunami that we're in. the AI Tsunami that's a whole other, we'll have to get into that later because I'm having a hard time understanding how AI Tsunami and prison and some of these things go together, but I'm, okay. because prison, up until the time I left, was one of the most Luddite places on earth. The MP3 player was the most highest tech thing we had. So you learn about just raw animal-human relations and all the good and bad of that. There's no shielding of technology. And so we can isolate with technology very easily or fool ourselves into thinking we're doing things that we're not. Whereas there's a physical reality to prison that I think would be healthy for many people, especially in America, to understand. Just to be physically with people in physical spaces. Okay, so understanding that, because that is a real human advantage versus AI is that we do have a body and that we're social creatures and we can leverage those social skills and understanding how to interact with humans in the real world in a way that is our edge against AI. Yeah, that's interesting. And I was thinking of other things that they could put. Maybe they could have put in the AI algorithm all the things that you had done, right? Like profile you and then figure out the right course for prison, right? So they can say, maybe this might do this to kind of analyze you and say, OK, this is the best way to get this inmate to comply or to be a good citizen or you could, could, mean, who knows what the algorithms could tell you, but they could. Graceanne, there are fantasies on the outside about why prison is correctional and education and rehabilitation and all these things. I'm a complete cynic with all that and I do believe it's correctional, but not for any of the efforts of those programs. It's correctional because you're in an alpha community, a violent community, and you figure out how to survive, and you figure out what you value. Yeah, the education stuff, programs, at least where I was at, didn't play a role in that. Well, there's one exception, which we'll get to at later time. Okay, but you were in the School of You. You were face to face with yourself. So if you're about that, that education system is you by yourself with you. And so you corrected yourself with yourself. So I'm glad that happened. So anyways, you're a good teacher. You were a good teacher to yourself. I'm the child of two professors, so... Yeah, and so you taught yourself and you got yourself corrected. So that's great. Okay, well next time we'll go into some more stories and give people a little sneak peek on the book you're writing. So thank you and until next time. Thank you so much.