Manhood : in Prison, and in the Free

In this third episode, Graceann Bennett interviews author Gregory Roberts about how the ideals of manhood and self-identity are embodied in the all-male prison population, a group that is almost all alpha-males, forced to live together in tight quarters. They then contrast this with how men have been emasculated in 21st Century Western Culture, and talk about how "old-school" manhood might be able to inform and guide today's younger generations.

order your copy of the book today at piratesoldierking.com

Transcript

0:03

All right, we're here with Gregory Roberts talking about Pirate Soldier King. And today, thought it'd be good to delve into manhood. We talked a lot about in the book about becoming a man or things that you got pushed to the limit and found who you really are and that it is a very masculine, alpha male type of place when you're in prison. That type of place, yes, yes. I spent a lot of time around powerful, beautiful women and communities of women in the free world and had a few close male friends, but not many. And this was my first fraternity of sorts, all male experience. Well, it'll be interesting to know what happens there without women, right? Because in women, I believe in terms of the men that we want to see produced in society, it's a little challenging right now because I feel like a lot of strong women like myself, we've emasculated men and they've lost their masculinity and their power and the things that really attract women to men. So in this whole 21st century manhood, yet to be defined and I'm just curious your views on it because you've definitely come out a different man from this experience and Love to understand what those Lessons were so one thing you talked about a lot is taking responsibility for yourself. So What do you learn about manhood in that regard? I think that was the first step. was certainly before I went down, my reputation and even my self-image was essentially a Peter Pan. I just like flitted around America and taught women how to fly in an acrobatic sense, but pretty much how to fly. I was carefree and you know, everything's fine. But really it was Peter Pan. And that's clever, but he's a child forever. mean, that's his blessing and his curse. And I was pretty good about accepting responsibility. I was a CEO of several companies and a COO, that kind of the buck stops here type of thing. So I did understand that theoretically, and I still had a ways to go with it. because there were certainly some people and experiences in my life where I was like mad at God or mad at someone else for doing something to me and that kind of victimhood mentality. Or I guess today it's called like, what's your trauma? And I'm like, well, if there's one thing I've learned in life is that everybody has trauma. Certainly some people got beaten with a wrench as a kid, know, or thrown down a hill, and other people just got, you know, something that disturbed them and it didn't seem like a big deal, but it is to them. But the key of it all is, if you're blaming someone else, then you're not taking responsibility for your own life, and therefore you're not taking credit for your own life, and therefore what's your life? Like you're just riding along someone else's story? And it was actually reading a book called Purpose Driven Life, and I think it was like chapter five, and it said something like, who are you still angry at in the world? And was initially, and I was taking notes, I was like, nobody, I'm good. And the more I thought about it, I was like, there's that one dude I just wanna kill. Actually, two of them, two people, from different segments in my life. And Purpose of Life basically said, do you think that your anger at those people is causing them harm? Do you think it's like getting back at them? Do you think that when you stew in your emotions of victimhood, that it's like, that's your vengeance? These people have forgotten about you. You're like a casualty 20 years ago on the side of their road, and they've driven a thousand miles past it. but it's still stuck in you and it's actually causing you harm. And when I saw that and recognized it, I mean, was like a blow to the stomach. And I was able to release it and able to own it and be like, you know what? Every single thing in my life, my choice. And how did you do that? How did you actually release it? I mean, you talked about you had some time in solitary and you're literally looking at yourself. I did you have a mirror or were you just kind of having a one-on-one talk with yourself and trying to be honest with yourself? It seemed like you have those moments because you have a lot of alone time. Yeah, I mean, that's, yeah. A lot is an understatement. All you have is alone time. Yeah. Literally. So the mirror, I mean, I had a scratchy, scratchy mirror that was blurry and stuff, but the real mirror is the psychological mirror. You know, just kind of deciding who you are and looking inside. And how did you realize that you could actually, I mean, are there any tips in terms of how do we actually remove the blame and anger? How do you get past that? Well, like one of them was I had a colleague, mentor, whatever you want to call it, who I blamed for like stealing my company because we had a letter of intent and then we got to like a 50 page contract. It was for the sale of the company. And I went to my lawyer. was like, is the contract good? He's like, yeah, it's good. So I just, took a 50 pages to sell my company that I put like six years of my life into and I just signed it. And, and And I got a little cash, it was all good. And then like, some creditors called me like three months later, they're like, you owe us$100,000. I was like, what? Like, what are you talking about? And they're like, it's in the sale contract. I was like, what? And I called the guy up and like sued him and tried to get out of the agreement stuff and. But the fact is, I signed that thing and I abdicated my responsibility by calling my lawyer who I trusted, you know, and said, hey, is this okay to sign? And it wouldn't have taken what, four hours to read 50 pages? And it was written clearly in there. But that whole, like, for whatever it was, five, 10 years, I was, I think it's 10 years, I was like mad at that guy for screwing me when I had screwed myself. And, you know, and... I mean, it sounds foolish, me relating this story, but I think I'm not alone in those type of things, where I felt my trust was violated, but really, I was ridiculously naive. You don't sign a major contract without either multiple eyes on it, or at best, just freaking read it. Well, what kind of promises did you make in prison that struck you? Like how does the honor code and all those promises get made? What are like the rules of prison rules that way? You don't have contracts, but do you have contracts with other people? mean, the basic contract is anytime, just like a contract between me and you or anyone is like, okay, Graceanne, we're gonna do this call at 11 o'clock today and come hell or high water, we're gonna show up. And it's pretty much just showing up when you say you're gonna show up. And it can be simple things like, yeah, I'm gonna, I'll get you a macro packet commissary, you know, or it could be serious things like, hey man, if somebody swings on you or attacks you, I got your back. which means you're just gonna go to war with that person. But being cautious, if you say that to someone, if you say, got your back, then you damn well better have their back. Like if it comes to pop, you better not be running away because that's a definition of who you are. It's not just because you'd be letting the person down, but you'd be letting yourself down. So I'd say, is there a... A code in prison, the only re- there's all kind of weird codes, but the only real code is my word is law. It just means you make a commitment and you deliver on that commitment. Period. people have good memories there in prison. Oh yeah, yeah, to a scary extent, yeah. I mean, I tripped up on it a couple times. I gave somebody something from my locker and I totally forgot that I gave it to them. And then I moved along and I had another friend and I was like, hey, there's this thing in my locker, it's yours, man, just have it. So I gave this thing that was worth, arguably, like $50 to two people. And Huh? Then what happened? How'd you get out of this situation? I I profusely apologized and end up like basically giving the I told the I told the one guy, the second guy I gave it to, said, look, I was out of line. I totally, like my brain fritzed. And when I said you could have that, I didn't realize I'd already committed to give it to someone else. And so let me make it up to you. And he had already had it his possession. I said, can you give it back to this guy and I'm gonna pay you in coffee. Like however much coffee you need, you got. And it was actually very tense, because it was between two different races. I'd given it to a white guy and a Hispanic guy who were both my friends, arguably, on the tier or people I had good relations with. And the Hispanic guy was really gracious, actually. He was like, man, just don't worry about it. He goes, but you kind of fucked me, you know, and you fucked yourself because you said this, and the word on the tier is that, you you double-dealed. And I said, look, man, I'm just give you... And I gave him like... four bags, next time at lunch, I put in my pants like four bags of coffee. And I walked up to the Hispanic table, because it's all race divided, and I was like, here dude, here. Which is basically like $45 worth of coffee. And I said, I hope this makes it good, and. anything else you need just let me know and I got and he was like man it's good and I didn't even ask for that coffee I didn't want that coffee but I appreciate you making good on it and you know just really work just be careful that's what he told me like you're you're playing with the big boys here and you can get hurt like$50 is a lot of money here. So like be careful and watch what you're giving and doing. And he said it with his gravity where I was just like, I got you and thank you. And thank you for your graciousness and for that wisdom. Like I hear you. So what, because it did seem like in some situations, I don't know if you have any stories to go with this, but you did talk a lot about in the beginning you were naive, right? you, and so in terms of kind of becoming a man or growing into manhood from some kind of naivete that you might have had, what were some of those things that you naive about that you got smart about that still carry through today when it comes to how to operate in the world? think one of things is that like as a kid I was just always like happy-go-lucky guy. You're like, da-da-da-da-da. Just like bee-bopping through the universe. Everything's good. Boop-boop. And that's not everyone's narrative and that's not everyone's way of moving. There's some people, essentially like warriors and seasoned warriors who are more like fight, kill, survive people. and words matter and you know there's sometimes when you want to make a joke and sometimes when you don't. Right? Yeah, sounds like you made a lot of jokes. Sometimes it didn't go over so well. Yeah, I mean there was one particular thing where there was like my my celly was like really messing up. He was just like we were on the tier like in a cell that was furthest from the CO's office on purpose and our caddy corner to us like our neighbor was like the biggest gangster one of the biggest gangsters on the yards and a lot of a lot of things flowed through his cell. So they didn't want attention from the guards. And my celly was something of like a white trash idiot and he was misbehaving and bringing a lot of attention to our little part of the neighborhood. And so the... the head of the other gangs kind of came to me and said, you got to take care of your celly. Like, you know, his behavior is inappropriate and it's causing attention and that we don't want and, you know, curb him or we will curb all y'all. And so I had the conversation with my celly. I was like, man, you can't, you know, be sitting out here like being high and, you know, stumbling around and. this sort of thing, like do it in a cell, and he was like, you know, it's my cell, you know, he was being, whatever the word is, recalcitrant or just like, you know, really, he was not gonna hear it from me. It got to the point where I was like look man if we have to fight we were fight but like that you know because he was like who's telling you this and I Would not say well someone else is telling me to tell you this like I had too much dignity for that I'm like I'm telling you this He's like so you the problems me and you I'm like yeah the problems me and you and It got to it and I and I was finally like look dude. It's not just me like you know there there are real gangsters on this on this tier and There's this is a major problem, like between groups here. And he's like, let me talk to him. I was like, okay, okay. And so they basically sent in like their number one hit man, for lack of a better word, like the guy who did the dirty business. Like he wasn't the head, but he was the hand. Like he was the knife carrier and he was the guy who would just like, you did not mess with this guy. So he's like, he's like, it starts to come into our cell and I'm like, okay, this is a bad look. said, you know what, don't come in our cell. We're going in your cell. So we go in their cell and he's like, look man, and he lays out the situation and tells my celly like, you know, can't be doing this. My celly still is like, you know, you can't tell me what to do. That's actually a manhood thing too, is like no man can tell another man what to do. at all. at all. Like it's just disrespectful. I don't go up to somebody and say, hey, do this. You know, I can say, hey, I'd appreciate it if you do this, I'm not gonna, but pretty much, you know, he was saying, you cannot do this in front of And my celly's like, you can't tell me that. And this guy, I've never seen him before, but he actually, I wouldn't say he backed down, but he was like, all right, you're not hearing me. And at that point, both, of the top gangsters of the yard walked into the cell. So it's now three of them and two of us, like three Hispanic guys, two white guys, and these are hardcore ballers. One of them's doing 25 years, one of them's doing life. They run a lot of the material through the yard. And the one who's kind of the real head of it tries to be really political and gentle about it. My celly's still being like, just not hearing it. So finally, my friend George, he's like, he just pops. He goes, look dude, here's what's gonna happen. You're either gonna correct your behavior and you're gonna tell me right now you're gonna correct your behavior or there's gonna be an accident in about 30 seconds and your ass is gonna fly off this balcony and you're gonna land on your head and snap your neck. And he goes, me and Silencer here are gonna take care of it and that's what's gonna happen. Now, I'm not fucking around. Do you wanna get seriously hurt or are you gonna fix your shit? man. I was like... And there was this amazing silence and my celly was like, fine, fine. I'm going home in 30 days anyways. I don't give a fuck. I'll just stay in my cell for 30 days. And he did, he did. And that was that. But I was like, that was just a straight up death threat. And they were not kidding. They were like, literally just going to lift him up and throw him off the balcony. And he was going to drop 15 feet and poof. yeah, that happens. Yes. What happens? Okay, so you talk about EDC and that's not, you know, the music festival. It's the EDC. is EDC for? Because, you know, I always say I was like a man with a plan, prepared, equipped for life's adventures. So kind of as a man and being a man both, you know, on the outside and in prison, this EDC idea, what does that mean? EDC is an acronym for Everyday Carry. It's basically what are the things you have to have in your pockets when you leave your place. Obviously there's wallet and keys, but the extensions to that are a knife and a way to make fire. It can be a very small knife, but a knife is your representation of a tool and agency in the world. And I have given, there's a favorite knife I have, it's like a Gerber skeletonized really sharp lock blade that I have given to so many young men because, and this is when we're going camping. I'm like, we're going camping. I'm like, you got a knife, right? And they're like, nah. I mean, you don't have a knife and we're going into wilderness? I say, here, here. And so I've given away like six of these, I think. Because, and it's just. That's something I do, and my parents, they didn't raise me to always carry a knife, but when we went camping, yeah, like we had multiple knives, like a big buck knife, a fixed blade, and then like a Swiss Army knife, and with tools on it. And I feel like I would feel better if more men carried knives with them. Not necessarily as weapons, I mean, obviously he uses it, but it's just a universal tool to take care of stuff. Huh? own knife in prison? yeah. Yeah, I served an extra 60 days for getting caught with a knife in prison. Yeah. But was it worth it? I was a thousand percent worth it, yes. When I first got there to Beaumont, people have been telling me all along that I need to have a naive, need to make a naive, and I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I kind of felt like it was some weird prison story from the 1800s or something, calling it shank or whatever. But then when I got there, my first celly, He was like, well, we better start making our knives soon. And I was like, how? Like, with what? And he's like, it's really simple, man. You just like, we're gonna get some dental floss and we're gonna like carve the locker and we're make a blade. Then we're gonna sharpen it on the floor and on the sink. And I'm like, dental floss? Because the lockers are made of like eighth inch thick steel. like plate steel, welded. And he's like, yeah. I'm like, man, you're just full of shit. Like that's not happening. I'm not doing it. it, you know, you're going to just, it's like some joke. You're going to laugh at me. He's like, yeah, whatever, dude. Okay. Well, I got diagnosed with COVID like three days later, I got put into the quarantine ward, you know, which is all single man cells. And I get into my cell. And I walk over to the locker and I open up the locker and I swear there's like this knife shape, like a seven inch kitchen knife carved out of the edge of the locker. And I look at it and like, it's got cut lines. And in one of the cut lines is a piece of dental floss just like, like hanging out, like ripped and hanging out there. And I was just like, it was on this moment where I was like, holy shit. You that's crazy. That is, and it was like a big knife. was like, like the blade was that big. And so sure enough, you know, I got to my real cell with my real celly and there was already some knives in the tier. My celly left, so he donated me a knife because the knives stay with your race. And so I had that one. And then I got like a real hardcore celly, just straight up gangster. He came in fresh off the streets and he immediately was like, where's the knives? That one's not good enough. We're making one. And so we cut one out of the locker and dude, our hands were bloody. Like, I want to say it took more than 12 hours to cut that thing with the dental floss. I'm just going like this all day and night. And while I'm there and while we're sleeping all night long, All you hear is this. I don't know if you can hear that sound, but it's like, that's the sound of metal on cement because all night long, everybody's sharpening their knives. Not everybody, but like it's regular enough that you're like, once you know what that sound is, you're like, there's a lot of weapons on this tier and they're getting sharper every night. And they have to because they keep getting confiscated by the guards. And eventually the guard shook down our cell in the middle of a wreck time. And tried to barge in and stuff, and they were going to beat the shit out of me. They were like, get the fuck out of your cell, dude. And I was like, ba-ba. And they were like, no but. Stay the fuck out. And they came out with a knife, and they're like, whose is this? I was like, They locked me in my cell in the cell. He's like and it was my knife and he's like What are we gonna do? We're gonna be both denied that it's ours like it someone hid it in our cell or what are we gonna do? I was like, I'm just gonna tell him was mine He's like, are you serious? I'm like, And so, you know, we went to the SEO's thing. He said who's this I said, that's my knife and they my my my buddy was like huge and like fully tatted head to toe And with a beard down to here and a shaved head and swastika on his neck, like he was a prison beast. And I'm me. And the CEO looks at the two of us, he's like, Roberts, you're telling me that's your knife? I'm like, yeah. And he goes, do I need to take you in private and ask you again? I'm like, no. And the guard kind of laughs and he goes, okay, you're going to take the shot. And, you know, we went back to sell my celly. It was a good move. So they added 60 days to my sentence, which hurt. I mean, that stung. more importantly, they were like, look, we catch you with another knife. That's 18 months on your sentence. Another, it's be like five years. Like, don't fuck with us. And so I kinda went to my cell, I was like, look man, like, I did that. He's like, yeah, and I appreciate that. I go, I'm not carrying another knife. Like, I am 16 months away now, 18 months away from seeing my children, and I will see my children. So that's, know, and it worked out. Or what happened then? Just you were knife-less for the last 18 months? Yeah, mean, there's a way, like, I had friends with knives, and they were basically like, look, dude, if the shit pops, a knife will fly under your door and you will have it, like, immediately. So don't worry about it. But I didn't have to, huh? Yeah, yeah, truly, I guarantee it, yeah. And the most important thing is, like, prior to that, I had to wear a knife through metal detectors. Like, when we went out to yard, I was wearing, I had a knife strapped to my... you know, to my waistband and walking through metal textures, metal textures go off, I'd be like, hey, no problem, guard, don't worry, man, it's my fucking watch, you know? Like, like just bullshitting, praying that it didn't pat me down, you know? Yeah. then you talk about fire, so you have a knife and then fire. How do you actually end up with fire in prison, other than if you work in the kitchen, I guess? How does that work? There's a hundred ways to start a fire, but the easiest is probably just with a battery. You do a battery and you take wire, which you can strip from all kinds of things. mean, you would not believe the places. So you get a little piece of wire and you get a battery and you just hook, you short the battery. The wire is thin enough. It gets like super heated and you take a little toilet paper and you twist it into a wick and you blow on it just right with that heated wire and the toilet paper lights and then you have a little fire and you set the fire underneath your toilet and you cook. You know, make your hot water for coffee or whatever you need. You're cooking in your snow. And the guards don't stop you? No, guards are just to stop people from killing each other and barely even that like that the prisoners run the prison so Yeah, I mean there there was like a full Hispanic like they made like chimichangas and burritos for like it charged like 20 they had there they stripped their whole like there was a desk not that big but like it a desk this big like two feet by one foot in each thing and they like stripped all the paint off the top and put like two burners underneath it. I mean, you take blankets and you roll them up and you soak them in butter so that they catch on fire. So they had two burners and they had a full grill that was open every Friday. For Chimichangas Yeah, yeah, and burritos and quesadillas, yeah, because they stole all the butter and the stuff from the kitchen. It was freaking awesome. That's some of the best food of every. Like a $12 quesadilla. It was so good. men today should be a little bit more resourceful because you're obviously very resourceful in prison, right? yeah, think just some basics, honestly, like a survival workshop. It's like, hopefully no one will ever need to survive, but just that knowledge that you can, I think changes how you move through the world fundamentally. Like it. I had some friends that grew up on a commune and they didn't go to college, but they were super handy, these two brothers. And I remember thinking about, you know, COVID was happening or thinking about the end of the world. And I said, okay, there's certain people I want to be with if we have like money and the whole banking system and everything's working well, right? All our computers are working. There's people I want to hang out. with there. But then I thought to myself, these two guys, have all the, the shit goes down, I'm going to go fight in them because everybody else is going to be useless, right? think that's kind of like what Burning Man, part of the essence of that is like you take people from, and I'm not talking about plug and play camps, but in general, you you get out there and you have to make everything work from scratch. And if it breaks, you gotta fix it. So. That is true. do think women would like men to be more equipped and be able to do things, right? Than just call task robbing it. Right? Right, exactly. think we have a, women have a renewed interest in at least, it's like, okay, can you just do something that I can't do or I don't want to do and come prepared and be able to, and to do these things? Yes. I do think the world will be better. So yeah, maybe we can have some of these. We don't have to go to prison to learn them, but it would be good if we could teach young men how do this. survival training. mean, REI teaches courses. They take 16 people out who have never been camped before in the wilderness. that's not even survival. mean, that's just somewhere between camping and glamping and backpacking. But you still get the idea of you're in the woods, weather happens, cook your food and start your fire and make your kindling and that sort of thing. And how old were you when you kind of, because I'm just thinking about this is like a rite of passage in a certain way, but and young men would have a rite of passage, but you're going through your rite of passage from Peter Pan to a man, do you say later? Had you evolved out of that or did prison really kind of kick out the Peter Pan? prison shredded the Peter Pan. Yeah, I had no more tolerance for Peter Pan and I meet Peter Pan's out here on the beach and I'm like, yeah, enjoy while it lasts. Like, yeah. It's a, yeah, I had a girlfriend who took me out to Peter Pan for my, I don't remember which birthday it was, maybe my 42nd birthday, something like that. No, 40th. No, 39th. But anyways, you know, we went and saw the play and it had all the aerial rigs and things and Peter Pan flying around. And I had seen it since I was a kid or read it. And I... I actually have like an original copy of that book. That's how much I loved it, the idea. But we got out of that show and I was like, that was a tragedy. Poor Peter. Like Wendy gets, she grows up and this, that, but she leaves Peter behind and he's just stuck in Never Neverland. Like fighting Captain Hook, that's all he ever does. And with his merry little pranksters or whatever you call them. She's like, yeah, why do think I took you here? I'm like, what are you talking about? She goes, that plate was for you, that's you. And I was like, I mean, I had not looked at that mirror before. And honestly, didn't even, even then I was like, nah, that's not me, ha ha ha. But when I got to prison, I really thought about that and I was like, okay. Were you robbing banks when you saw the play? what mode were you in? no, it was before then. It was on the path, yeah. on the path. And so Peter Pan and coincides with the archetype pirate, would you say? say, yeah, mean, Captain Hook is his adversary, but he's as much a pirate as Captain Hook is. He's more Robin Hood-ish, you know, but yeah. you. That was more you, because you consider yourself more like trying to do the good thing, be more Robin Hood-like. So I guess, right, versus Captain Hook a little bit. yeah, yeah. I did always feel like a good guy. you know, like Batman uses dark methods to get to good results, theoretically. Yeah, and he doesn't necessarily abide by the law, like he is the law, but yeah. Right. Okay. But now you got out of the Peter Pan mode. So no more Peter Pan. Yeah. Okay. I can access it. For certain things, it's not bad. For playfulness. We'll talk about playfulness later. But for certain things, it's not bad as long as it's seen for what it is. It's not an end in itself. It's more of a mode. Okay, right. but do you talk about kind of getting to more of killer instinct and having being pushed to the limit so you actually know like who you are? Like you stand up for yourself or you fight for yourself or you come face to face with that strength that you have inside you. So how did you get to that killer instinct and that ability to... fight for your tribe, fight for yourself, that type of thing. It was actually a singular moment. I had arrived at Beaumont. Again, I'd been through quarantine. I was in my actual landing cell with a kid who'd been incarcerated since he was 14 years old. He was, I think, 36 when I met him. But he'd been through juvie and just basically, most of us, I should say... Not most of us. But I started to count how many years of my life I spent in prison. How many years of my life were wasted. They weren't wasted, how many have I lost to prison? But this kid was like, hey man, I've spent a total of two and a half years in the free. I was like, holy shit. He's 36 years old and he's been in the free world for two and a half years. He's just been in and out of prisons his whole life. So this guy was hardcore. A lot of respect for him. His name was Travis. And he's the one who was leaving and gave me my first knife. But he was like, you you gotta learn to use this knife. so we stabbed the mattress. He was like, a body is harder than this mattress. You think you're slicing through butter. It's not butter. It's like tough skin, which is like leather, and then muscle, which is like even harder, like gristle of steak, and then bone. You gotta get through all that to the organs. gotta like, poof, poof. shh, gotta like, if you're stabbing, you're not like going knee knee knee, you know, you're trying to kill the motherfucker. And so I'm like stabbing my mattress and it's hard. I mean, it's like, I'm almost pulling my arm muscles. it's, and he's like, I'm not, I'm not letting you stop until you stab fully through the mattress, like through the front, through the battens and through the backside of it. Like I want to see the tip of the knife on the other side of the mattress. I'm like, grrr. And I mean, I was shocked at how hard it was. But you know, so I lay in bed. that night and I was like thinking about like stabbing a human, you know, getting in a fight and I was like, I don't know, like that's pretty extreme, you know, and um, but I can't explain why my head went here, but I was like, here's how it's going to go down. You're to be in a knife fight with somebody and on the other side of that person is your kids. Oof. Uh-huh. this person is, you're trying to kill each other. Because you're not messing around, you're not like dancing with a knife for fun. that's, you know, you are trying to kill each other. So if they kill you, you're not gonna see your kids again. So there's only really two options. Like if they kill you or you kill them. I was like, and I just stood there like, lay there in bed. And just kind of went inside myself. I was like, what am I willing to do to see my kids again? And it just kind of welled up. Like an hour and a half in or two hours in, I was like, I'm going to kill that motherfucker. Like nothing's going to stop me. I'm driving through that person with a blade. And I realized I could and I would. And There are certainly many, many people, if not most people on the yard who have far more combat experience than me. What I realized in that moment, that part of my character is, is my heart. And there's a saying that says, it's attributed to Mark Twain, but it's like, it's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog. Which is basically like, I mean, it's about heart and courage. And if you make the decision that you're not stopping until you're done, that you're going through this and you're going to get to the other side, in my case, the other side was seeing my children, then that decision's made and you're going to do whatever it takes to get to that decision. And that night I made that decision. And honestly, I'd been walking in fear before then. Like, I was kind of walking around like, you know, I don't want to get in a fight with anybody, this, that, and the other. And after that, I just walked around with my chin up. I was like, if I have to, I will. I hope I don't, but if I have to, I know what I have to do. And it kind of fundamentally, some gear shifted inside of me. And it worked because I wasn't afraid. I had made the decision. And it does seem like that's good for men and women just to kind of know the fight that's in us. I mean, we don't want to feel like we're fighting through life or we're, but, but if we, if we, if it comes to that, to fight for ourselves and fight for the things that matter to us the most. Right. to strip away the fear part, because the fear, like Dune says, fear is the mind killer. It's not just the mind killer. Fear is like the life killer. Like, you're going to get hurt in life. It's OK. embrace the pain. David Goggins being like the extreme of that, right? But you don't need to go that far. like, but realize, don't be afraid of the pain. Don't be afraid of death. You know, like you will die and you will get hurt and that's part of life. So just like roll with it and when you're confronted with it instead of like running from it, like run into it. Right, yeah, that's good advice and it did seem like, again, there's lots of pieces of the story in the book where you definitely get pushed to the limit where we see what you're made of in the book. So I'm excited for people to read more about that. So great conversation, Gregory, and looking forward to our next one. Delvin says some other topics. The book is at PirateSoldierKing.com. Alright, PirateSoldierKing.com and then you can go and read a chapter, pre-order the book and then watch some of these interviews. Right? Alright. Thank you. Great, well thank you for being the man that you are..