How I found Jesus, Resurrection & Redemption in the Belly of the Beast

In this episode, we talk about Gregory's journey as the son of two agnostic scientists into a bona fide worshipper of Satan and finally his transformation into a born again servant of Christ, and how that transpired in prison... as well as some valuable wisdom that he learned along the way.

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Transcript

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. All right, we're here with Gregory Roberts for another episode of Pirate Soldier King. And I am your host, Graceann Bennett. So hello, Gregory. All right, you're Gregory Roberts, there we go. We know our names, okay. So that's a good start, yep, we do. So we're gonna get into religion. So we're gonna... get into it and I want to back way up. We talk about religion, you talk about coming into Christ and we're going to get to all that, but I want to back it all the way up to just understanding you: Gregory Roberts growing up and some of the... kind of your path, your religious and your spiritual path, and starting from the beginning. So tell us a little bit about how you grew up and how religion played a role or didn't. Well you said "in the beginning," so in the beginning, God said, "Let there be Light." the beginning, beginning, okay. And my parents tended to call that the Big Bang. So to give the background, I guess, that you're asking about, my parents were both very hardcore scientists. My dad was a chemistry PhD, and my mother was a biochemist. My mother actually was nominated for the Nobel Prize. They were very serious scientists. And so, and they both ended up first teaching as professors and then going into government actually and research. So when I would ask as a kid, like I remember vividly being about seven years old and being like, "Hey dad, why is the sky blue?" And he went into this long explanation of light waves and how the nitrogen in the atmosphere absorbed all the reds so it looked blue and. this, that, and the other. And I was just thinking why couldn't he have just said, "God made it blue"? Like, that's really the answer I wanted. But everything was like this mathematics or physics or, you know, detailed science. And so basically I ended up, what I consider absent of, I mean, on a technical level, absent of any spiritual doctrine or instruction. We did go to church. Twice a year. We went on Easter and on Christmas. And the reason was not for the services. The reason was because my mother was, in addition to being a scientist, she went to Oberlin College and like double majored in biochemistry and music. And so she loved to sing and she had a beautiful voice and could harmonize. So she would just like belt it out and always be harmonizing when the church sang the hymns. And she loved singing in like... in public and in a chorus like that. So that was my twice a year church. Okay, well my mom's in a church choir, so she loves singing too. There we go. There it is, yeah. I singing is, I love it when people sing. It's like, you know, that's your true, like it's your heart song. Mm-hmm. Wow. So that was the only time. And how did you feel when you went to church those two times during the year? to sing harmony in the middle of a bunch of like amateur melody people. that's, that takes some, some technical ability and some strength, but yeah. yeah. I was amused. I guess I... like, you know, I certainly, there was no doctrine or indoctrination. other than did you have a craving for some spiritual meaning or understanding the world? craving. In fact... yes, this is a separate story, but in fact, I ended up running away from home and joining a cult because the cult leader was like, "Hey, I got all the answers. Here's what God is and here's what angels are and here's why the universe was made" and all these stories and things. And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what I needed. it's like, again, that's a whole other story, but. That's another book, another story, another podcast. So we'll do that one. We'll do one after this. So. what I ended up doing was I actually took a bunch of college classes at the local community college about world religions and just did general research on all the religions of the world, like Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, Christianity, Catholicism, you know... primitivism. Like, I mean, I just researched it and and kind of synthesized my own belief system based on... based on that. And where'd you land? I landed for a little bit in Buddhism and then I felt like that was just this absolute like boring dead end because it was like Buddhist, I mean, my absorption of it was that you just "nothing matters, don't worry about it." Like it was just like, I was like, "well then what's the point?" And then I got, I really got into Hinduism because I became a yoga teacher and got in the acrobatic community and that's very... like a line, mean, yoga is a branch of Hinduism, essentially. And I really loved it because like, I studied it then when I went to India, I remember vividly like talking to these people, I was like, well, you know, I talked fluently about Hinduism, I was like, "Yeah, it's great. You know, there's like 36 gods!" And the woman looked at me, she goes, "Thirty-six?!? No, no, no," I'm like, "Well, what they like 50?!?" She's like, "No... we have 300,000 gods." Wow, that's a lot of cards. was like, my God. And my experience of it was like, there was a temple for everything. People had blue skin, green skin. There was elephant heads like Ganesh. It was just this amazing mythology that was alive and colorful. And they'd make movies that were on par with Marvel movies, but with all their gods. Arjuna shot nuclear missiles from his bow. Just it was just as fascinating. It was like stories, endless stories. And so that entertained me. And in those stories, I also found messages, like they have ahimsa, which is this core belief of no harm. Like you will not harm anyone or any animal or anything actually. But that worked for a while. And then what happened? And then life happened and I got to experience some of the harder edges of life. And I was like, ahimsa is just for wimps. people are like, oh, cause hardcore ahimsa is like, I'm going to be vegan or I'm going to be like, there's one even beyond vegan. Like I'll only eat live food or something like live plants. And so I was like, you know what? I need to get tough and like do stuff. And I explored what I felt was everything else. And so I actually kind of, I, this is hard to say, but it's just, this kind of shows where my head was and how desperate I was. And this was when I was robbing banks. I got into Satanism and I like went online and I bought this sculpture of Beelzebub, like this goat headed God with like six breasts and you know, a bloody skull in his hand and put it in the corner of my office. And I was like, you know what? Fuck it. Like, God's not listening to me, so I'm just going to worship Satan and ha ha ha. It was kind of like my joke and my rebellion. And that was about the time that I got arrested for multiple bank robberies and went down hard by the FBI. right, right. was like, God was like, you think I'm not listening? How about this? And, yeah, so the. within like a month of arriving in jail, what happened is I got arrested and they go into intake, which is like this multi-day process where you're just like, there's not much food and you're just like, they're fingerprinting you and making sure that you're a citizen of the United States and all these things. And so I'm in there and intake is also like, you're realizing like I'm in some serious trouble. And And so, you know, about six hours in intake, I was in just in the cell and I was like, okay. And I prayed to God and I was like, "God, just get me out of this. I'll do anything. Like get me out of this." And I had made the same prayer when I got my first bank robbery arrest like a year prior in California and God had answered-- I felt God had answered me. Like I was looking at 20 years and I got six months. And so, but I had totally forgotten. Oh, cause I said, "God, if you get me out this, I'll never rob a bank again." And here I am. a year later, you know, making the same prayer. but the devil is still on your desk. So you prayed to God, he got you out, and then you kept the devil. Okay. Yeah, the devil was still on my shoulder with claws in. I actually felt, I really felt like the devil had his claws in my back, just, And so I made that prayer in Reno jail and immediately God was like: "Hey dude, you made the same prayer a year ago and I delivered and you broke your promise. So good luck." Okay, so it's not, so you got, you basically, then what? religiously, what was in your mind? Like did you ever get rid of the Satanism or like when did that? So two things happened. First of all, like, I'd say I was like 48 hours in jail. I'd barely gotten out of intake into my unit at Reno, Reno jail. And and the C.O. was like, "Hey, Roberts, you got mail." I'm like, Ohhh-Kay. like, I don't even know who who... I had made like two phone calls. So how would anyone know I'm even here? And the mother of my children, had sent me this really nice leather-bound study Bible with like, it was like, I don't know, like 2000 pages with notes on everything and color pictures. And she put $100 on my books, so I could buy commissary. and she is a, she's a true heart blessed woman of a Christian. Like she just gives to everyone all the time and seems to have endless gifts to give. And it really touched me. I was like, she didn't have to do that. And that's actually difficult to do. Like she had to figure out how to send a book into jail and it's not easy. And she got it done like that. And so I had a book and also you're not allowed to have leather bound books in jail or prison. this thing was like a $100... it was beautiful. You know, and it was real leather. I would every day I would smell it because I was like this leather is the smell of freedom. So I just, kind of started reading it recreationally because I had it. And like I said, it was a really, it was kind of like a history of the Judeo-Christian world because more than half of it was the study notes. Like, know, just giving you the historical context of what the Bible verses were saying, both for the Old and New Testament. But again, that gift just touched me in my heart. I was like, oh my God, I didn't even ask and she just sent that to me. that and about... I think it was about 30 days in, I kind of made a little connection in my head. I know it took a while, but I called my fiance at the time and I said, hey, I said, "can you do me a favor?" She's like, "What?" I said, "Go into my office, get that statue of Satan, go into the shed, get my 30 pound sledgehammer. and take it to the backyard and just smash the fuck out of it. Like just decimate it!" And she just started laughing. She's like, "Oh my God, you made my day. Like I'm on it! As soon as we hang up, I'm doing it!" And I mean, next time I took, cause she hated that thing. She used to come in my office-- I had a home office --and she used to take sheets and throw them over the Satan statue... So it was like covered. Alright. She hated it, for good reason. Next time I talked to on the phone, she was just giggling with glee. She's like, "I did it, it was so fun. I'm so pissed at you and I just took it all out on that stupid ass statue and it's like in a thousand pieces." Good. Good, well you got, yeah, so then how did you, you talk about in the book, I mean, I'm sure, I mean, there's a lot of, I mean, we can't go step by step by step, but you do talk about kind of reading the Bible, and then you talk about having kind of this black heart in a certain way. So, so how do you get to, how does the Bible get in you, or this idea of Christ, and how does that start to kind of work on your heart? in some kind of way. I did feel that my heart was kind of, I wouldn't say dead, but pretty damn close to dead. When I visualized my heart, which yoga and other things like teach you to do, all I could feel was like this black diamond, like this piece of shiny coal. Like it was just like, and it was small. It was like that big. And that was just, I mean, that was just what came to me when I thought about it. And it was kind of sad, but it's what it was. And that's where life had led me or where I'd led myself. What was the question again? You got wrapped into your black heart. So you go and you have this diamond in the rough, I guess, if we can call it that, this black, tight, hard heart. And they do talk about hearts being hardened, right, in the Bible, right, if you have a hard heart. Yes, yeah. So were there any scriptures or verses that really spoke to you when you're reading the Bible, things that you could even like share with us that spoke to you as you started to, you know, come into Christ? is that my intention when I was first incarcerated, and I told my lawyers this, is I wanted to go to trial, and I wanted to make this big speech about how I was Robin Hood, and the banks are evil, and I'm representing the people and doing the right thing by taking what is ours in the first place. Like I was the righteous robber, you know, like I was gonna just stick it to the man and be on the federal public record saying this stuff, and it would be the most famous speech ever. You know, was my delusion. I mean, I was really just going in, fighting and swinging. And my lawyers heavily advised against it. But I was like, you know, this is my life. I'm gonna do it. And I had done it once before in a smaller trial, and it worked out wonderfully, sort of. But but federal is a whole other level. And so that was my plan. And I was reading the Bible. I wasn't really Christian yet, but I was reading it and it kept. You know, really like Jesus is about surrender and this master-servant relationship where he is the master because he serves his people. Mm-hmm. And I just started to really meditate on that. I doing the right path by fighting and basically giving a big middle finger to the federal judge and the FBI and all the people? And so there's this one part of the Bible about authority. It's actually Paul. It's in the New Testament. And he basically says, you need to respect authority....because God put authority in place in the world. And it's not all the time, right? Like, there's a beautiful scene where Jesus goes into the temple and turns over the moneylenders tables, like basically a violent protest. he takes their tables full of money and turns them upside down in the temple and ...pretty much a riot. So there are exceptions, but in general, Paul is saying like, God put authority on earth for a reason. And in general, unless you know, there's harm involved, these are structures that the people and God have put in place. So respect those structures. And I kept meditating on that Like, am I really like a burn it down anarchist? Like, am I encouraging everyone to rob banks? And what would that look like in the world? You know, it would be like murder and mayhem. I mean, for real. And actually, more I thought about it, was like, because I was mad at the banks. And I was trying to robbing them to get back at them. And I was like, you know, the banks are built by the people. Like, I mean, I know they're corporations, but initially, like the idea of it is people want a place to store their valuables and store their databases of dollars. And, you know, it's a consensual service. Like you don't have to put your money in bank. You can have $100,000 under your mattress and live that life. But, you know, I kind of started to respect it and it brought me around at the same time. I just kept reading the Bible every day. It's all I was allowed in solitary was the Bible and the dictionary. there was a book called Purpose Driven Life by a preacher called Rick Warren. That book really was the linchpin and the keystone that that book changed my life. Because it came into, I like many people had an adversarial relationship with Christianity because of the hierarchy, the patriarchy and the structure of the church. And what I really came to realize, and Rick Warren did a beautiful way of voicing it, he's like, it's not about the church. It's not about buildings. And Jesus said the same thing. He's like, you know, it's about your heart and people and how you choose to live your life. And so when I got past the institution that is the church or the churches and got into like what Jesus was saying in the Bible, Then it really started speaking to me and I got to a turning point where, you know, the purpose driven life was like, you know, I think it was like chapter seven. It's like, hey, accept Jesus into your heart. Like I challenge you to do this. And I was like, fuck no, no, no, you're not. I'm not doing it. Like I'm not surrendering and I'm not, you surrender is for wimps and this that the other. And finally, I was like, you know what? I'm in my own cell. Like no one's with me here. You know, this is just like. What's the worst that can happen? You know, if I just like say in my heart and my head, okay, I surrender to Jesus, make, tell me what you want me to do, Lord, and I'm on your path. So I struggled, but I finally got to the point where I was like, all my other decisions, including Satanism, have led me to this cell. And it kind of sucks. And I'm looking at like living 60 years in this cell. Is that what I want? Like, maybe there's another option. And so it was like, 3 in the afternoon or something, was like, I'm just going to do it. And I said like, you know, Jesus come into my heart. I'm open and ready to I'm ready to serve God and anything you want me to do in life. I'm your servant and and I'm good to go. Like just just tell me what you want me to do. and and the other key of Christianity is that like Jesus died on the cross so that you're forgiven for your sins. and God knows I committed some sins. And all at once, just hit me where before I was like, part of my belief was that I'm the God in the universe. I, Gregory Roberts, am God and I control everything and I've chosen everything. It's very arrogant, egotistical thing. And by putting this concept of God above me and saying, hey, I'm ready to serve, just tell me what to do, I'm doing it. And it just like unlocked this freedom and this, and then the forgiveness at the same time, I was like, oh my God, I'm forgiven!! And I felt that black diamond of a heart just like explode and disintegrate. And like this new kind of just like bloody beating, beautiful, like thing just appeared inside me. It was like, it was like truly like, they say like born again. I felt like I was born again. in that minute, in that second. And I just started crying and laughing, like happy tears. And I pretty much like sang and danced and cried and laughed for most of the next 72 hours. I was just like, my life is new. Like I've got, it's all good and I have nothing to worry about. I called my lawyers. I was like, look, let's do a plea deal. Like, I don't know what I was thinking. I am not gonna make an ass of myself in front of the judge. Tell me what you can get me. and everything started working well. I also, I wildly evangelized to all my family and friends and I was scared because, you know, like I thought they were gonna think I was a crazy person. And most of their responses was, well, it took you long enough. Yeah. Yeah. Like. believe it, or even your dad who is still alive, I mean, is still alive right now, but just a scientist, what did he think? You just gave me chills, Graceann, and that's always my positive side of things moving the right way. Even my dad was like, you know what? I'm happy for you and I'm proud of you. Like, he, and because, and I've had a lot of conversation with him and this is slightly private, but I will just say that like, You know, he has that empty hole in his heart, right? And I wouldn't even say an empty hole. Like he had such a rough time with religion as a kid, like in a very institutionalized way that he rebelled against it. So I think he has his own private model and understanding as we all do. But, you know, he kind of recognized that I needed what I got in terms of that. And it was a very compassionate, beautiful conversation with him. And with most of my... I think all of my family, friends, and children. The other half of it is I really feel like they, we've been into this in other episodes, but they felt the shift of me from like this arrogant, demanding asshole into someone who cared about them and wanted to listen to their stories and wanted to help them and serve. mean, that was a big shift at that moment that hasn't changed since. And that makes sense in terms of the king part, the servant king, being of service as a king that we talked about before. So that's beautiful. So were there any other scriptures that you would go back to, any passages that you would read? How did you practice your faith in prison? What was that like? This is the second Bible that I got. It's leather. And as you can see, I had a fair amount of notes in there. Wow. huh. I mean, my favorite, have so many, so maybe I should just, I wanna talk about the Bible as a book really quickly because my relationship with it changed across the course of my incarceration. I kinda came to feel of the Bible as a magical book in that, like there are notes in here that I've where it's like, this passage means this. You know, and I put the date, like, you know, and a little, like a post-it saying this, this, and I read it now and I'm like, no, it doesn't. Like that, like that's, what? Like, what was I thinking? And at first that took me off guard because I was like, I thought I unlocked it and now it's this. But I came to realize it's a dynamic book. Like it gives you what you need in the moment and on the day that you choose to consult it. And your interpretation of a phrase or a sermon or a passage can be this on one year and this on another year and that's okay because it's a dance. It's a cosmic dance and it's giving you what you need in that moment. So I have had many experiences with the Bible like consulting it as an oracle sort of thing or just when I need guidance in times of stress. The one that I repeatedly come back to, huh? Oh yeah, I wanted you to share one that you come back to. Yes. Okay. So you're ahead of me. Yes. one I repeatedly come back to, I believe it's Matthew 6, 26. It's like 26 to 34. it essentially is, it says, do you think that the robes of Solomon, who at the time was like the Elon Musk of the world, like the richest king on the planet, could even compare to the colors of the lilies in the field, like the flowers in the field. Mm-hmm. do you think that like the sparrow that's flying across the lake or the ocean is worried at all about having a home to arrive to when it gets to other side? It's like, no, because why? Because God takes care of these beings and these animals and these creatures and blesses them. And so if he's taking care of the sparrow and the flowers in the field, what do you human have to worry about? You're like God's chosen creation on planet Earth. Like you're the highest expression of evolution of... God's intelligent design, whatever you want to call it. So you think you're not taken care of? Like there's nothing to worry about. So, and that really, huh? bleak prison, you're still not worried? Like, how does that factor in? Because sometimes you're in really bleak, horrible situations, and then you read that, and you might think, well, he's not really taking care of us. you could see it. Like, you could see the beauty in even when you're even in prison, reading that scripture? yeah, because when it comes down to the wire, I mean, so there's this dynamic thing of like, why am I in this terrible situation? You know, but then what faith is, is saying two things. I'm in this situation because I need to be in this situation to learn a lesson. And two, as long as I do my best, God's gonna do the other half and he or she or it will see me through. Like the higher power will see me through. And it's a partnership, it's a teamwork. So just, it's kind of, I mean, that's the core of faith is trusting that you are exactly where you need to be at this moment. Perfection and no, and there's, and stress or worry is never going to do you any good. Like all stress or worry is just focusing on negative outcomes. So instead of, you know, instead of spending an iota of energy on stress or worry, spend it on self-care and spend on solving the problem that you perceive. Right. Yeah, taking action and then you'll get some extra help. There it is. Yeah, yeah. What is it? Like, God helps those who help themselves. Right, okay, no that's great. how is, like what's your relationship to God, Christ, church, all, know, just what's happening with you now? You have your Bible, so it sounds like you're still reading that. But what is it like outside of prison and what are you doing now? I went to a few churches and I went to a really dead church in Orange County actually. It was a decent sized building that had 25 people in it. I it was empty and I was like, huh? I wasn't vibing with the preacher. actually walked out mid sermon. I went to a really alive church here in Santa Monica called Vintage. But I also they took on some of the more difficult, challenging passages, you might even call them misogynist passages in the New Testament, you know, where like Paul is saying about how women should behave in things. And the preacher did a whole like women should be quiet in church. And the preacher did a whole sermon about how, this is what it says, but it's really symbolic and it's contextual to history. I mean, it's basically like doing this massive backpedal and, you know, making excuses about why it's like that. And I was like, you know what? I don't need anybody to bend my understanding of this book. the last thing that I use the Bible for is to judge other people. Jesus said with complete clarity, he said, judge not lest you be judged. It's like fundamental to the philosophy of Jesus, like not to cast aspersions or judge anyone else, because every single person in world goes through their own shit. Right? Like it just ...and has their own journey and everyone's. I mean, I do believe that everyone has sinned in their own way, but I'm not gonna judge another person. God will judge the sins. know, when we're, and it can't be, the judgment can't be cast until the life is over. Right, okay, so then, so you're on your own personal journey then. Now. yeah, yeah, my relationship, yeah, with Jesus is primarily like I spent thousands of hours in prison and jail, like reading and studying the Bible. I actually did complete. I read the entire thing, which is challenging. There's some really rough parts in there. But, you know, I got a deep familiarity with it and took a ton of notes. But my basic thing is I have, I mean, it's pretty simple actually, is that Jesus says to love God with all your heart and all your soul and to love your neighbor as yourself, like love your neighbor as your highest thing. And then the third part of that is who is your neighbor? And the basic answer is, well, you have 8 billion neighbors. Like every single human in the world is your neighbor. And that's it. So it's like, you know, everything else is kind of window dressing and, and, the last thing I ever want to get into is like dogmatic or doctrinal arguments with other Christians or anyone for that matter. Cause we make our own choices and live our own lives. And some of the, some of the people who I feel are the best embodiments of Christian Christianity or Christians on this earth have nothing to do with the church or the Bible. They're just living their lives as good people, you know? So like, I'm good with that. Like, you know, well, I think what we can do is just choose to align ourselves, who to align ourselves with as friends, chosen family, family... and to do good work in the world. That's it. So my relationship was highly personal. Jesus is in my heart and I'm not putting that on anyone. I'd invite anyone to go through a similar journey as mine, because I found it to be one of the most liberating things that ever happened to me in my life. It fundamentally changed my entire outlook on life for the better. And pretty much all my friends and family have told me that as well. So. see it in you. I mean, they can see that manifest in terms of who you are right now. Yeah, that's great. Okay, any parting... you want to read a scripture, any parting words of advice or anything you want to leave us with as we wrap up this episode? Okay. And Easter is traditionally the celebration of the passion of Christ when he was the whole thing where like Judas betrayed him. He had the last supper with the disciples. He got arrested by Rome and then crucified, hung on the cross to die, died, was buried, and then came back to life. it's a really, I it is a beautiful story. And I'd encourage anyone to read that. mean, that's the gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, to read any version of that that they're comfortable with and to internalize and personalize it. Because the two fundamental things that I felt about it are one is we all have that opportunity to embrace our inner Christ and to be born again. So we can die. We can kill our past. We can kill or have killed the the negative parts of ourselves and come back to life as a being of light and a being of serving and gifts. that to me is like that's sunrise on Easter day. get up at 5 a.m. on Easter morning, watch the sunrise from wherever you're at and think about your new Alright, yeah, every day is a chance to be a new human, right? So that's, you know, it's inspiring and you're on this path to redemption and all the things that you're doing, so it's very inspiring. So thanks for sharing your story and we'll put, we'll have to put some of those things in the show notes so they can find that Bible. I've never even heard of the Bible that has all of those, the context that that your, the mother of your children gave you with all the notes. I've never even heard of that. And then you have yours. All right. Yeah, no, it's fascinating. I'm sure a lot of people have some questions for you later. Anyway, so thank you and thanks for it. And all the juicy details are in Pirate Soldier King, the book. There we go, okay. Until next time. Thank you. Yeah. Peace out! it gave us the hearts. I want to do the hearts. Where did get the heart? How'd you get the heart? It's magic! I don't know.