Healing Through Somatic Work: A Journey of Self-Discovery with Patrick Murphy

Patrick is a talented Somatic Coach who works with people to overcome anxiety, perfectionism, trauma, and overwhelm in order to live the greatest vision they have for their lives. 

Here is what we covered!

takeaways

• Trauma can significantly impact business success and personal growth.
• Understanding the nervous system is crucial in somatic work.
• Attachment styles influence our relationships and behaviors.
• Setting boundaries is essential for healthy connections.
• Self-compassion is key to healing from past traumas.
• Slowing down in therapy allows for deeper processing and healing.
• Community support is vital for personal growth and transformation.
• Grief is often an overlooked aspect of personal development.
• The journey of self-discovery involves accepting all parts of oneself.
• Boundaries are about maintaining connection with oneself and others.

Sound Bites

• "What we resist persists."
• "Boundaries are about connection."
• "There's nothing wrong with you."

Connect with Patrick:

Website: https://www.murph.live/

Instagram: @murph.live

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro
• 0:32 The Journey from Business to Trauma Informed Coaching
• 1:30 The Impact of Trauma on High Achievers
• 1:51 Exploring Somatic Experiences and Nervous System Responses
• 4:00 Attachment Styles and Nervous System Responses
• 6:34 The Role of Somatic Work in Healing
• 8:58 Navigating Boundaries and Sensitivity
• 11:41 The Importance of Nervous System Awareness
• 14:18 The Challenge of Emotional Regulation
• 17:16 Titration and Safe Exploration of Feelings
• 20:01 The Intersection of Change and Stress
• 27:38 Coping Mechanisms and Nervous System Responses
• 29:15 Understanding Somatic Experiencing
• 31:02 Navigating Panic Attacks and Energy Release
• 34:20 The Journey of Self-Discovery and Healing
• 39:20 The Impact of Childhood Trauma
• 44:32 The Role of Support in Healing
• 47:56 Finding Your Voice and Authenticity
• 55:25 The Importance of Connection and Community
• 1:03:04 Renegotiating Relationships and Personal Growth
• 1:04:54 The Intersection of Grief and Growth
• 1:07:44 Understanding Grief in Life Transitions
• 1:10:11 The Role of the Nervous System in Grief
• 1:12:30 Attachment Styles and Behavioral Responses
• 1:16:06 The Importance of Boundaries in Relationships
• 1:22:39 Self-Compassion and Understanding Your Nervous System
• 1:34:47 The Journey to Long-Term Transformation

Transcript

Selena Vigue (00:06)
You're listening to the Aware and Thriving podcast. I'm Selena Vigu, your host, and I'm so excited to bring you a space to inspire and empower your personal growth. Aware and Thriving is where we cultivate self-awareness by learning from the inspiring stories of resilience and expertise shared by others. Together, let's grow, thrive, and create the best versions of ourselves.

Selena Vigue (00:34)
Hello and thank you for being here. You guys are going to love today's guest. We're chatting about nervous system regulation and how it can affect all aspects of your life from relationships to trauma and healing. Patrick Murphy is a somatic coach who works with people to heal their nervous system so they can overcome anxiety, perfectionism, trauma and overwhelm in order to live the greatest vision they have for their lives.

In our talk today, Patrick gives us his own real life examples of how he's been impacted by trauma, how his nervous system took over throughout life, and the work he's done to overcome it. I am so excited to share this incredible conversation with you all today. I think so many of you will be able to relate to and draw parallels to things you may have experienced in your own lives. And my hope for you is that you get to grow in self-awareness today and feel empowered to create change for yourself. Let's get started.

Selena Vigue (01:30)
your most recent certification is in trauma-informed therapy? Trauma-trained. Trauma-trained. Yeah. and just to be clear, like I'm not, you know, not a clinician. Yeah. But yeah, somatic experiencing is the modality that I'm currently training in. I've already got two somatic certifications from the body lab. And that was trauma-informed.

So you started out business coaching and life coaching and then it evolved into being this trauma trained coach as well. And you incorporate both of those things into work with one individual or someone comes to you individually for specifically trauma work. It kind of depends. there's, you know, people generally come through either door. Um, so like for example,

had a client a couple years ago that he came to me mostly for the business coaching side. But he's also a veteran with PTSD. He's mostly worked through, but he still rears up in a little bit. And he had started his own analytics consultant company. And he really wanted to get to a certain income level with that.

certain revenue level. it was initially like sales and marketing coaching because that's my corporate background. But what we very quickly uncovered was, you are undercharging yourself, which was directly linked to the past trauma and essentially just like taking up space, charging what he's worth, et cetera. And so he very quickly went from charging 10 grand a month to over a hundred grand a month.

And it was quite literally just a combination of pulling certain levers on the business coaching side of here's how this works, but also embodying his own kind of self-worth and like I said, taking up space.

basically charging what he's worth because he was so afraid to rock the boat of like, if I charge this much, then they're not going to work with me. Well, if you keep charging this much, you're going to keep this cycle of burnout and this resentment and whatnot, which is what was happening. And I see it a lot because I generally work with high achievers, top performers.

who came from some form of dysfunctional family background, whether it be they have an alcoholic parent, they had maybe a bipolar parent, something along those lines that was potentially untreated, or maybe it was, but the effect still lingered. And how that translates into the workplace and how that shows up in business.

perfectionism, overthinking, just feeling pressure all the time. Because what happens is, know, these high achievers, like it was a, it was what kept them safe. And it's what kept them.

connected to their family, to their parents, like, look at me, like I did everything perfectly. And so that just continues on until it can't because their nervous system doesn't have the capacity to continue to hold that.

because what happens is, you know, all this gets culturally reinforced of like, Hey, good job. We're going to you a promotion, more responsibility. Well, 10 year old, you also had a ton of responsibility because you were parentified. Right. And so just kind of linking all of those together and generally starts to catch up with people somewhere between let's say 30 and like 50 years old. So sounds like you also do a bit of attachment work.

Yes, some psycho education around this is how your past and your inner child can be affecting you today Yeah, absolutely. then you move into the somatic portion It's kind of all tied together. because you can't do in my opinion. You really can't separate attachment work from somatic Yeah, I mean I think just to kind of give everybody because there's probably some people I'm guessing if they're listening to this being like what is somatic?

So somatic is essentially the language of your nervous system. all of this happens on, and I'm going to have a little nerdy brain sciency here. It all happens on a subcortical level. And so your brain develops essentially in three stages. This is a really broad stroke.

there's a neuroscientist listening to this, don't at me bro. But essentially your brain stem develops first and that part is 500 million years old from a mammalian perspective. Obviously not a human perspective but that's the part that is essentially responsible for breathing, digestion, heartbeat, just the basic things that keep us alive.

The next part that develops is your limbic system and that part is 200 million years old. And your limbic system is essentially your threat detector. And so you'll hear me refer throughout this to the threat detector, right? And your limbic system houses your amygdala and that is really the part of your brain that's responsible for fight, flight, freeze and shutdown.

those four main survival responses. It is only concerned with survival, plain and simple. Your entire limbic system is only concerned with survival.

And then the last part of your brain that forms is your prefrontal cortex. And that's really what differentiates us from all other mammals and whatnot is, you know, we have a larger, more developed prefrontal cortex and your prefrontal cortex is the part of your brain that's responsible for rational decision making, rational thinking, timelines, you know, kind of putting things in order, et cetera. And what I mean by subcortical is those first parts of our brain that I explain.

stem and then your limbic system, they all function on a subcortical level.

And they actually, they don't speak the same language, la, you know, whatever language we speak. Right now we're speaking English, but Italian, you whatever your native language is, it doesn't speak in that manner. Your limbic system only knows the language of sensation, feeling, and what I call kind of flavoring. Okay. And what I mean by flavoring is a situation in the present only needs to just slightly.

have like the littlest bit of flavor like the La Croix version. Just the slightest flavor of a situation in the past that maybe felt threatening or didn't feel good. Like it only needs to feel that flavor in order to activate. that what you're saying? Exactly. Okay. Exactly. And so when your system picks up because we have it's called neuroception

Our brains are constantly scanning for threats 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. It never stops doing that. And it all happens on that subcortical level. We don't consciously think that we're scanning for threats, but we are. And in this case, it's not just physical threats, it's also emotional ones as well. I get that. That resonates with me a lot. As a couples of therapists, that's a huge part of my work is teaching them that

as you're having this conflict in this conversation with your partner, your brain is scanning for threats and you're reacting from your nervous system in a way that keeps you safe. Exactly. So let's, I will use an example from my own life and put it in a relational context. this is after I had done a ton

of self-work. mean I had read every book, listened to every podcast, I'd been in therapy for over a decade at this point. I had done EMDR, which is a trauma modality. And so I came into this relationship thinking like, alright, I am an evolved man. I'm done with all of the dysfunction in the past. I've done my work, I've healed my inner child. Yep, exactly. And then the universe was like, hold my beer We have some more.

lessons for Patrick. And I mean literally from the night that I met this woman and I can look back and see these little flavorings. Because I fall like let's say on an attachment perspective I fall on an anxious side, perhaps maybe even disorganized but in this case she was on the like kind of extreme avoidance side which obviously triggered my

like extreme, like more extreme, anxious attachment side. And I just remember, like talking to her for the first time and it was like pulling teeth trying to get her to like converse. And I was just getting these one word answers and that was just this flavoring that was so similar to my pattern with my mom. And I didn't know it at the time. I remember all the work that I had done. And so.

My system was so attuned.

to that pattern that it was like, okay, like this feels quote unquote safe. Even though in the moment I was like, this doesn't feel great, but I was so used to overriding that. I was so used to overriding that. And that's what happens, let's say with trauma or even extreme stress is like we can override those signals that our nervous systems are sending us, you know, because I mean, there's nothing more core than attachment, right? Yeah. Is there something in that too that makes

your nervous system feels safe and that it's familiar of like, I've seen this before, I know what to do. Exactly, that's the thing. Like our system knows the pattern and even if it doesn't feel great, I mean, this is why people stay in, let's say, abusive relationships and whatnot for so long because it's sort of like the devil you know versus the devil you don't. and really what happens with, let's say, developmental trauma, early childhood trauma is

know, like our systems get attuned to, oh this is what love is, even if it's unhealthy.

Yeah, I understand that completely. I feel like I've experienced that myself in relationships and I'll notice it and I'll notice this is familiar and there's a piece of me that does not care. Yes. That is like, I want to be here even though I know this is wrong. Yes. And now I've, I've almost gone too far on the like protective side where now when I feel that like spark with someone, when I start dating them, when I feel like, I feel like I can really be myself with someone. Now I kind of go a little farther the opposite way. I'm like, that's probably a bad sign because that means this feels familiar.

does that mean there's something I'm not seeing? Yeah, and that is such a common pattern.

I mean, I've done that in relationships. It's such a common pattern because, like from a somatic perspective, we, we have to get used to the good stuff just as much as we have to expand our capacity to sit with the tough stuff as well. And that's what somatic work is a core part of it is expanding capacity over time, you know, cause people talk about like, like releasing the trauma, you know, et cetera, which like is sort of true, but

really what it is is you know kind of let's say releasing the charge that the trauma holds but also simultaneously expanding your capacity and your ability to be with the discomfort. I love that that makes so much sense.

Because in the somatic work I've done, I've got a great therapist and she incorporates a ton of somatic work into our practice, which is just naming and understanding what this feeling feels like in your body and being able to be there with it and sit with it and then recognize what it feels like to be safe. Yes. Yeah. And that's the thing is that when our systems are attuned to something being unsafe, especially from a young age, like kids don't know any different.

I need mom or dad or both to survive. Like there is no choice in that. And so little kids can't run away. You know, so my dad, my dad's alcoholic.

when my dad would go into just a rage, his, like the switch would flip and his face would be purple and I, like he would just be screaming like so loudly and I'd be like, I don't know, I don't even know what I did, you know, to cause this. And so I would freeze because I couldn't run away because like that was like, uh-uh, like I'm five years old. Like I'm not going to able to survive on my own. But it's also not safe to move

toward you. And it's also not safe to fight you.

and push back because you're my dad. And so I would, I would just freeze. And that was a tremendous amount of energy that would get essentially just stuck in my body. it's been, you know, it's been a process, you know, releasing all of that. But what so much of what we do in somatic experiencing is, know, I mean, any of my clients would tell you like, yep, Patrick's going to tell me to slow it down, slow it down, slow it down. And so much of.

of

why we slow it down is so we can notice that tendency to override.

that tendency to just jump straight into the relationship or the friendship or whatever, even though your body might be telling you, wait, hold on, let's pump the brakes here. And on the flip side of that, obviously in therapy we talk about window of tolerance, right? Well, when we expand our window of tolerance, and it's not a word which is called capacity, when we expand our capacity to be with the tougher stuff, we simultaneously

expand our capacity to be with things like joy, excitement, love, connection. And it's so interesting because I will have clients like kind of early on because so often like their bodies are kind of like screaming at them of like, hey can you like please help me like process this pain. And they don't know you know kind of what's going on they just know like they're having trouble sleeping and they can't shut off and they're working

all the time, etc. and perfectionist tendencies, that's kind how it presents.

And so much of what I do is like, I'm trained in reading the signs and signals that your nervous system is showing, is presenting with. And I don't actually have to know what happened to you in the past. and that's kind of a departure from a lot of what people, like what they're used to is like most people are used to talk therapy. Well, that I'm even recognizing in talk therapy is not needed. Yeah. Where, and that kind of shocks people.

So

many people come in they're like no you need to hear the background you need to have the context Yeah, you need all the details. I'm like no I actually really don't what I need to know is how you reacted in that situation what your process was Yeah, yeah, exactly and you know I mean the story is very often an important part. You know it's not like I'm not gonna sit there I want to hear your story exactly yeah, cuz a lot of people come to me and like they've never actually been able to open up yeah to tell that story and

And you but we do it at a pace. Exactly. That you have to go slow enough. Exactly. body to be able to reprocess it in a healthy way. Precisely. If you just tell, come in and tell me your whole story, oftentimes you're going to re-traumatize yourself because now you're just digging it back into your brain. Yep. You're strengthening that pathway that remembers it. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And you know, so many people like they're used to, they're used to that, you know, whether it's in therapy or whatever.

rehash this and say yeah well let's kind of slow this down but the beauty of it is I can actually have somebody come in and not that I would ever do this but we just sit in front of each other and I don't need them to say a word and I can just read their nervous system and kind of just see where they're at

maybe they're really shut down, maybe they're really activated. I have clients, they'll be sitting there and they'll be wringing their hands and rocking in the seat. they're like, yeah, I'm calm, I'm fine, I'm here, I'm good. good? All good? Yeah. But they're just so disconnected from the actual behavior of their body that is stemming from their nervous system. Because our nervous system is responsible for every decision, every behavior that we do.

that we have. And being able to read people in that way, like it is a skill and it is something that you can learn. But I think that there are also people who are sort of gifted with that higher sensitivity to be able to feel other people's nervous systems. And I know that you're one of those people because I've watched you do it to me without trying. But that one time when I came into the cafe and I was grieving and you saw me and

you

had a visceral reaction to me as soon as I was in your vicinity. And I was like, wow, that's when I realized I was like, no, he's got an extremely sensitive nervous system where he can actually feel what I'm feeling, which only adds to the work that you're doing and makes it such a great fit for you. Yeah, well it's actually, there's like two sides to that coin because I've actually had to learn instead of getting enmeshed with somebody to actually just touch.

upon somebody's nervous system and somebody's feel where I don't get completely taken over because part of my own journey has been because there were no boundaries in the household that I grew up in. It was you are loyal to the family, you do what we say, know, etc. So I did not develop a healthy sense of self and so me trying to exercise what Peter Levine, the founder of somatic experiencing and one of my teachers calls healthy aggression

or even just healthy assertion, that was not generally welcome in my household. It didn't go over well. It actually was met with some pretty harsh consequences sometimes. So not only did I learn to just shrink myself, I had tremendous amounts of just shame around anger, healthy assertion, healthy aggression, and even just saying no to things. And that's really something.

that I've had to work through. But in terms of, let's say, of touching on somebody else's nervous system, there was just so much enmeshment in my family. Because whether it was with my dad or my mom, they would... The term that I use, they're just energy vampires. Because they're not able...

to actually regulate their own nervous systems and really kind of feel like their own healthy sense of grounding and joy, et cetera. Like so much of their mood was based on how I and my brothers were feeling and showing up in the moment. And so, you know, there wasn't kind of this like healthy separation of like, are you and I am me. It was like,

I need you to show up in a certain way. that I feel safe. So that I feel safe. that I feel, yeah. And that puts this extra added layer on you of, I need to be incredibly attuned to what they're feeling and what their nervous system is like so that I know how to show up so that I don't get consequences. 100%. For not being perfect or not being how I need to be to make them comfortable. Exactly. And so I develop, like one, I am like this very sensitive old soul.

first and foremost. But then you you layer out some trauma on top of that and it's like whoa Patrick's hypervigilance meter went way up. And I can still do this but I'm not overwhelmed by it.

walk into a room and just immediately sense like, well, that person's upset. Like it's one of those things where like I very often like I'm able to reflect back to people, like the things that they're feeling before they even realize it. it's both a blessing and a curse. And it's something that I've really had to learn to put some strong boundaries around, especially because I'm now trained in this stuff. sometimes hard to off. Like this is what you do for a living.

And when what you do for a living is also something that you're naturally trained to do Yes, it is so hard to shut that off and I would imagine that also just makes me think of like

That must make normal relationships so difficult. I'm naturally trying to do this thing, I work and do this thing. How do I have boundaries around this and friendships? How do I show up in a way that feels authentic to me? How do I not get judged by them thinking that I'm constantly doing this when this is also just a part of who I am? Is that something you run into? Oh, yeah, absolutely. There's a part of it where it's just sort of fun for me to catch. Because in my training, it's like,

Like sort of practice and I'm not like doing it without permission or whatever but just kind of like taking people in yeah Okay, like yeah, like I see there's some like agitation there, you know, whatever or this person just feels really shut down You know, never like doing work on them like without permission or whatever But you notice what you do this because yeah, know it yeah and and so, you know that was just kind of like I think a natural evolution

But what I've really had to do, whether it be relationships and definitely with my clients, is really learn where do I end and you begin. And vice versa. Because that is just so crucial to...

mean, one, just how we develop as humans. But if we go back to, let's say, attachment work and developmental trauma, which is so much of what I ended up working with, people just weren't able, similar to me, they weren't able to develop that healthy sense of self and that healthy sense of boundaries. so, somatic work is absolutely fantastic at helping people develop that, not just a sense of

but like the container of our bodies and You know this might sound I Was gonna say the container when you said container of our bodies so many people are disconnected from that and they Fight being connected to it because it doesn't feel safe It doesn't feel safe and so so many people are running to almost I would say a majority of people will be like I'm having this feeling let me figure out why I need to pinpoint why yeah, let me intellectualize

it

away and if I can just figure out why then I don't have to feel it. Yeah exactly exactly and that's where I mean I was absolutely one of those I've definitely been there. I'm 100 % one of those people and I have to remind myself not to slow down. 100%. I actually had and for anybody listening I have been...

Seeing my personal therapist for almost a decade now and this was like a couple years ago We had a relationship where this was completely fine. So if any clinicians are listening, you're gonna freak out at this when I first say this but My therapist like fake fired me one day Nice. I love that actually. No, it was was a hundred percent the right move. Therapeutic fire. I got temporarily fired by my by my therapist because she said Patrick

need another course, you don't need another book, you don't need another podcast, you need to just be. And this coincided with me entering into my own somatic experiencing therapy. she was dead right, and she said, she was like, look, if this is gonna drive you nuts, we can do a 20 minute phone call here and there, but just take a.

break from working on yourself. And that was such a turning point for me in my own journey because she was dead on. And so I didn't see her for two months and then went back and re-engaged and then simultaneously was also seeing a somatic experiencing practitioner.

And just that combo. And when I went back to Christy, we actually, she was like, okay, And this coincided with the relationship that I had mentioned earlier and the breakup of that. Cause that relationship brought me to the, brought me to my knees in so many ways, but really just brought me to the absolute core of

my attachment trauma, both with my mom and my dad. Because this one was the perfect balance of, she had a drinking problem, so mirrored my dad in that way, and my mom's emotional unavailability. And it was this one-two punch. And your inner child is like, perfect, this is my time to finally prove that I'm enough. 100%. Like that, yeah, and that was my pattern.

conquer this if I can break this pattern if I can change it. Yeah and there were there were many times in that relationship where I just consciously thought like this is I don't like this relationship like this is not what I want etc and I would make the decision to to break up with her and then my whole body would feel like it was just on fire like on fire and then I would completely dissociate and go numb. Really?

And I'm so grateful now, as hard as it was, I'm so grateful now for that relationship because it really brought me, especially as a practitioner, it brought me to the core of realizing, this is what goes on. Because people aren't necessarily thinking, like, this relationship feels like life or death, but attachment work...

It does feel like life or death because for five-year-old you and five-year-old me, it quite literally was life or death. We had to adapt and we had to shape ourselves and our nervous system subconsciously shaped themselves toward how can I maintain connection with you because I need you for food, water, shelter, and whatever we think love looks like in this dysfunctional family system.

It's literally life or death. Yes a four-year-old kid five six-year-old kid can't survive Without their parents right and then you're in that relationship context and I'm imagining and let me know if I'm off but I'm imagining then You're also feeling like if I fail at this relationship if I give up What does that say about me like somewhere on an unconscious level? I don't think it happens consciously Yeah, I mean there's you know, there's multiple different layers because there's you know the core. It's it's just survival

it feels like life or death. And then there's, you effectively, you know, kind of you're touching on some shame layers, right? Like, what does this say about me? Like, my gosh, like I'm, you know, I'm 40 years old and I have never been married and I still can't figure out relationships. Like, what the heck is wrong with me?

And that's the shame piece. And in my case, it was still kind of unresolved stuff in my nervous system, despite the fact that I had done years and years of self-work and therapy and EMDR and trauma modalities. Yeah. And I think that that's what people, they also don't tell you starting out and talk therapy and all those things and EMDR. It's like you're doing so much work on yourself to sort of change your beliefs about yourself, change who you are. But if you don't incorporate

that piece like you're saying with the nervous system work of your body actually connecting all that information and Believing it and if you don't learn how to feel like you believe that and trust that you can tell yourself that to your blue in the face but if your body doesn't feel it

It's not going to get you as far as you need it to. Yeah, exactly. And the way that I kind of explain that to folks is we can't just tell our nervous systems that they're safe. We have to show our nervous systems that they're safe. We have to show our nervous systems a different way of being and not just show a different way of being, but we have to it at a pace that feels safe. And that's not to say that you're not going

have some discomfort, But in somatic experiencing we call it titration. So instead of eating a whole hamburger in one bite, because one, that's just not going be very pleasant. Two, you might choke and nobody wants that. Three, you're just not going to enjoy it. We're going to take a bite and we're going to taste it and we're going to see how that feels and see how our body responds to it and make sure we don't have any allergies to this hamburger or whatever tomato.

the lettuce and you know that's in it and then okay like that feels good we're let that settle and then we're gonna take another bite and you're gonna choose to take another bite rather than being forced to take another bite and override let's say your nervous system you know that's what the forcing does but you're gonna choose and

And like I said, we're going to go at this pace that slowly is able to expand the capacity in your nervous system. You know, it's like blowing up a balloon. Like if you blow up a balloon too fast or like you like try to like bend a stick like too fast, it's going to break. But if you gently kind of bend that stick or blow that balloon up at a certain pace, it has the ability to expand and to stretch.

and to get used to that expansion. Yeah, I love that. I feel like I have a metaphor for that in my therapy, which is imagining that you have like an iceberg inside of you, and we want to melt the iceberg, but at a pace where it's not going to flood your system. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And that's so, I mean, it's a core, core principle of somatic work. And also, you're not going to sit there and like have to sit with the feeling for 45 minutes straight, because

that is a form of potentially retraumatization or just like too much for your nervous system. We might just touch upon it. We might find the edge of that feeling and just maybe even take a couple steps back from it and just see what it's like to observe that the analogy that I always give is like instead of running and diving straight into the lake

We're actually going to take a step back and we're going to take the lake in.

and we're just going to see what it looks like and see what you notice. We might actually even walk away from the lake and go somewhere else for a little bit. Someplace that's completely like neutral or whatever and then come back to the lake and then maybe in doing that you're able to get a little bit closer to the lake and eventually maybe just dip a toe in. What's the temperature like? How's that feel? How does your body react to dipping a toe?

into this thing and then maybe we go back 10 steps and just stay there for a bit. I think this is so important for people to understand because I think a huge barrier to people getting the help that they need is feeling like if I go to therapy or if I go try to work on my nervous system that I am going to get flooded, it's going to be too much and I'm scared of what's gonna happen. I'm scared to open this wound because I feel like I have a good handle on it and I know how to keep it at arm's length.

Yep, and if I go talk about it with someone I don't know that I'm gonna be able to put it back where it needs to be Exactly and that's the first of all change creates stress

Always. Everybody needs to know that. That's why even taking a new route to work, you know, kind of puts you on edge a little bit, or at least wakes you up. You know, we've all been in that situation where it's like we've driven home and you're like, I don't remember the last mile of going through these stoplights. Well, that's actually a form of dissociation to a degree, but not like in a bad way. It's your brain saying, we know this route, we're good. Like we have this neural pathway. We don't need to pay as close attention.

So we can kind of zone out a little bit. And that's exactly what's happening in those moments where you're like, wow, I don't remember the last four blocks. So you just kind of zone out because your brain knows. You've got that brain map. Exactly. But if you take a different route, let's say there's construction or something like that, you're going to have to be paying attention because that route is new. And it's not automatic. And so going back to just change, create, stress, it's very valid that people

so afraid to go to therapy or do coaching or whatnot because our systems, our nervous systems shape, like you said, around like we know how to manage this. Like when I'm feeling really charged like I just go for a run and you know and then other people maybe it's substance abuse. mean there's so many different obviously you know like so many different coping mechanisms that people use.

And know they kind of fall on my spectrum one of my I've never had a substance problem I had a triathlon problem when I was in New York City to a degree because I was using that as a way to escape as it not yeah a way to escape but also a way to be like hey look at me like I'm doing an Iron Man like give me kudos you know whatever And it wasn't it really wasn't necessarily the triathlon. It was just like a busy problem

Like I was always in motion. Because my nervous system did not learn.

to settle, it didn't learn to kind of fluidly move between states from kind of like a healthy sense of, you know, activation. makes so much sense. When I see someone or meet someone that's constantly busy and constantly going in the back of my head, I'm like, what are you running from? Yeah. Cause there's something that you cannot sit with. And that's, that's super common, you know? And I mean, we saw it during, you know, the pandemic where people were forced to be at home and all help.

Because nobody had the coping mechanism. your coping mechanism might have been going to the gym or staying at work really late, you know, or whatever. And so...

The approach with, let me just differentiate too, because there's like somatic exercises and like quote unquote somatic work and then there's somatic experiencing. And so SE, somatic experiencing, is a modality. That is a specific modality that was developed by Dr. Peter Levine. It's evidence-based. There's a lot of research behind it. He's in his 80s now and he started developing it back in the 60s or maybe 70s.

Somatic experiencing is a specific modality. There's also, let's say, just somatic exercises. So some people listening, you and you see this a lot in the coaching world, you know, I've talked about this a little bit, like everybody loves to call themselves a somatic practitioner these days.

Standing up and shaking it out isn't necessarily like quote unquote, somatic work. You know, that might be something that I might instruct people to do, but you have to do it at the right time and in the right nervous system state for, in order for it to actually serve somebody. Right. Like that's more something of like calming your nervous system in real time, you can do that and it will help calm your nervous system a bit, but it's not going to solve your problem. It's not going to heal you necessarily.

And sometimes it's actually not about calming the nervous system. Sometimes it's actually letting the energy move up. And that's where like from a somatic experiencing standpoint, some people get surprised where like we might actually like stand up at the beginning of the session and just let their body move and maybe even like push against a wall or push against each other.

and allow that sympathetic, that fight or flight activation to resolve itself. And it goes against conventional wisdom, which is just take a deep breath and calm down.

that actually cuts off the stress cycle and it keeps that energy stored in the body. Really? Yeah. Like if someone's on the verge of a panic attack and they're in that firefight state.

And they do some deep breathing techniques or something to calm their nervous system down. Are you saying that that traps that nervous energy? Well, there's a, there's a combo. There's a combo. like, so for a panic attack specifically, that energy gets trapped kind of in this like T area. It's like chest constriction, maybe throat constriction. And it's this self-reinforcing cycle where the person feels like they're going to die.

what their nervous system is kind of telling them. Like, my gosh, I can't breathe. And I'm seeing this as somebody who has had panic attacks in the past.

So that focus, you're just like, my gosh, there's this crazy constriction in my chest and I can't breathe and I'm trying, you know, and they get lost in what we call in somatic experiencing, the trauma vortex. And that's all they can focus on. And so there's actually a protocol with SE for panic attacks, which is bringing the person into their awareness of their limbs and actually like, hey, can you extend your limbs and can you feel your feet?

move

your arms because that allows that energy to spread throughout the body and it's like, my gosh, I actually have a much bigger container and I'm over generalizing some of this. but it helps the person realize like, my gosh, like I actually have a much bigger container to work with to actually let this energy dissipate. And to kind of come to a sense of like grounding, know, hey, feel your feet, you know, that energy.

because again they're just trapped in their chest in that constriction. They feel like it's just getting tighter and tighter. Exactly, exactly. So hey can you actually look you know look around and there's other hacks too this isn't somatic. Well so are you saying that by doing that that tells their nervous system what? It tells their nervous system hey there's more space for this energy to move.

This energy to it doesn't have to be concentrated here and the concentration is what's making me feel like I'm gonna die to a degree Yeah, I mean there's there's you know other layers to it, but just broad stroke for purposes of this conversation Yeah, that's it And that's so much of what I do with people is it's so easy to get lost in that kind of trauma vortex Where you know somebody feels a sensation of oh my gosh, what does this mean? I have to figure this out I to listen this podcast or you know, whatever

And instead it's, okay, like, all right, there's a sensation. We actually don't need to make meaning out of it. And this was infuriating to me when I first started doing my own somatic experiencing work was I would initially be like, okay, well, I think this means, my SE practitioner would be like, okay, well, what if we just let go of the meaning? I'm like, no, I have to figure it out. Like I was that client. I need to understand the meaning so that I don't have to feel this kind of thing. I need to understand the meaning.

Because also that helped me stay safe that helped me feel safe because if I understand I see the meaning of it I can trace it back then I can figure it out and I know what exactly what to do with that, you know part or I feel like this kind of answers my next question a little bit which

it was earlier. You said that you had done so much work on yourself and a lot of times people that grow up with an alcoholic parent, they can sort of get lost in that trauma and the things that keep them safe. And I was going to ask, what do you feel like inspired your resilience to seek out information and understand yourself better in a way that helped you heal?

I honestly I think for me it was more just like necessity of like I feel awful Like my body feels like it's on fire and I don't want it to feel like it's on fire anymore or and I mean that was like a little more like specific but I mean because I went the high achiever trajectory where

I was the straight A student, got the grades, was in all the clubs. I was president of all these different things and then graduated college and went to travel Europe but then came back, started working for the Wall Street Journal and then started climbing the corporate ladder. And I got promoted, I moved from Atlanta to headquarters in New York City and I was just going, going, going.

all the time and that coincided with me doing, so you talk about the person that's always busy. This was my life in New York City. I was working for the Wall Street Journal, which was a very demanding job. I was doing digital ad sales, so I had to do some client entertainment. So was out with clients, always drinking and whatever. And I'd be out until like two in the morning on a Tuesday. The client came back at my desk by eight a.m.

So I was doing that, I was doing Ironman Triathlons, I was on the alumni board at the University of Georgia, running the various regional networks for the Alumni Association. This was still in my Catholic church going days. I had helped launch a retreat series in New York that's actually still thriving to this day. Also on the,

leadership committee and then eventually headed up the leadership committee for like the largest young adult Catholic association in.

New York City And all that while I was also putting my youngest brother through college You were doing all of those things at one time all of those things at one time I did not know how to slow down in my head I'm like, how could you possibly hear your body? It was insane. I wasn't yeah I wasn't and and but then I would be like flaky I forgot another piece of this. I was

Also like seriously like serial dating. Like I was going on like two or three. dating at this time? Oh yeah. Wait, tell me real quick pause. What did it, at this time of your life when you're doing all of these different committees and work and whatnot and you're barely sleeping, it sounds like what would a date with you look like at that time? It's sort of depend, I mean usually. Like were you very functioning, high functioning as a normal, coming across as a normal person? Oh yeah. No, it was like, I mean I think for.

the most part, I, well, cause one, like dating in New York City can kind of be like a little bit of a shit show. And so I would bring you know, a little bit of that Southern gentleman, like Southern charm to it. And, and I am by no means saying I'm God's gift to women because like the number of people that I ghosted and like, I'm not proud of, you know, because so much of, I mean, all of that serial dating was just informed by

You know, essentially. by needing to not be alone or not? Like what do you mean? Not be alone, but just be in constant motion. You know, because what would happen is, you know, I would, you know, let's say if it did progress like a second, maybe a third date, well then that's where things might start to get like a little bit more intimate, you know, and whatnot. And I still carry so much shame around like the fact that my dad's an alcoholic and that my parents were going through this horrible divorce and I was having to put my brother through college and like all this stuff. And I would just bolt and that was just,

my own attachment stuff coming up where it's like, oh god, like this doesn't, know, because I didn't know how to communicate. I didn't know how to like in a healthy way be in tune with not just my body, but like my needs and everything. Because it was just like I was never really allowed to have needs growing up. And so I didn't know how to communicate then. So when it would start to get to that point in dating where I have to start expressing my needs or what I'm looking for, what I want.

That's where your nervous system is gonna freak out. % 100 % Yeah, and I mean there's like every single relationship I've ever been in up until recently I've had the blinding panic attacks at the beginning of every relationship and that Traces back to because I was also sexually abused by a neighbor as a child and so that charge was still there And I'm so happy to say like that has like more or less completely dissipated because even in that experience

Yeah,

so had that not been dealt with up until After New York or at this point where it came to a head in New York the sexual trauma. Yeah, that didn't get dealt with till last year till last year. Yeah Wow, so My nervous system had I logically knew that it happened. Okay, so it wasn't it wasn't like I Because I logically knew that it happened

but there wasn't any kind of, I was so disconnected and disassociated from it because my nervous system was just doing a brilliant job of keeping me safe. And I remember actually mentioning it to my therapist like six or seven years ago. And it was like a five minute conversation because there was no charge around it. I was like, I think I'm fine, you know, et cetera. I mean, she, you know, asked some

like a few questions and you shouldn't just completely like cast it aside. you were like I'm not here for that I was just like I think I'm fine you know essentially and it wasn't coming up in EMDR you know we were doing deep work but they're just the charge wasn't there and then last year my body felt safe enough to actually wake up to it.

That's a good point right there is that sometimes your body, said my nervous system was doing a really good job at protecting me from it, which was meaning that I felt numb around it. Yeah, just completely disconnected from it. that's, and that's one of the things like I really want people to hear in this conversation is everything you're doing is like quote unquote, okay. And that's, you know, I'm not, that's a very gross overgeneralization, but like,

we have these coping mechanisms for a reason. We lash out at our partners for a reason. And it's not to say we excuse the behavior, but...

from you know somatic perspective you know when somebody comes to me and like lot of people feel a lot of shame around Not being able to let's say be in a healthy relationship or like you know kind of stop checking their phone You know stop checking their email in evenings or be able to fall asleep or just like turn off work and actually do with their families and The the thing I always and you know so much of it. There's like all right What mindset do I need to adopt and I'm like well if it were that easy you would have done it already? You know

when you just flip a switch and it was that easy. But you know it's not.

You're like this for a reason. There's a reason that you... I there's a reason... Like I said earlier, I'm not proud of the way that I showed up dating in New York and the number of women that I ghosted and whatnot and just left hanging. It sucks. That had to be really, really painful for them. It was also painful for me because I didn't know, but me aside, it's like that had to be really painful for them.

because of the way that I was shown up and I've had, I've carried a lot of shame around that. But through this work that I've done with myself of just kind of starting with that shame layer and just welcoming, because I do bring in a fair amount of parts work to people and just so for anybody listening that hasn't.

diving into parts work. Wait real quick. Yeah. I want to go back to that piece that you said how my body finally felt safe enough to let me feel this. Yeah. Okay. So we'll, we'll circle back. Yes. because of the work that I was, that I was doing, I finally got to a point where

my body was like, okay, and don't get me wrong, it was pretty intense and like not super comfortable. And again, this is what's like somatic experiencing. It's one of our essentially responsibilities as practitioners is to help contain what's coming up in a way that, you know, containment doesn't mean shutting it down necessarily, but to contain it in a way where you're not flooded, where you're not completely

overwhelmed by it. And it was interesting just because like I am a somatic practitioner and this happened well into you know me being a somatic practitioner. my gosh like I... That takes you by surprise. Yeah yeah yeah and and because I would just get these like flashes of it you know essentially because there was just so much intensity in my body when I started to wake up to it.

but I had the capacity for it at the time. I also needed help. I needed help. I needed guidance. I got it. And to be able to direct that energy and to kind of restore the response that wanted to happen in the moment when I was five years old. And that's a lot of what we do in SE is what didn't get to happen that wanted to happen. And so in this case, was either run away

and like yell for a neighbor, you know, to help me or actually I defend myself, defend myself. And so just restoring these responses, you know, from anything from like, you fell while skiing and it was like a really hard fall all the way up to let's say sexual abuse, you know, et cetera. Car wrecks. Yeah, something you said was so important, which was that you need help in this process. And so many people, I think, kind of shame themselves into being like, I should be able to figure this

this

out or I understand where this comes from so I should just get over it. And they don't understand that when you're dealing with somatic experiences and trying to navigate feeling safe in your body while feeling like a nervous system attack, I'll call it, that it is almost impossible to get yourself out of that on your own sometimes if you haven't done the work leading up to it to know what to do and you don't have the tools. Yeah, exactly. And here's the thing. I have every

at my disposal and sometimes there's still things that I can't work through. mean, yesterday in my therapy session, I was talking about some stuff with my therapist and part of the attachment work that we've been doing has involved touch. And so I said, hey, can you just come sit next to me? And so she came in and we're sitting on the floor and she came and sat next to me and as soon as her shoulder touched my shoulder,

All of a sudden...

my system was able to let the thing happen that wanted to happen. And I was getting, and we were essentially working with developmental trauma. And I just got these images of myself as a two-year-old kind of taking, imagine a two-year-old, they take a couple steps away from mom and dad, and then they look back to say, hey, you're still there, I'm safe, is this okay if I keep going? And then they might kind of wobble a little bit, and then decide they want to take a few more steps.

back and make sure you're still there and and that's the safety piece and and as of having someone work through it with you yeah but and so essentially what's happening in my system was like this because I've been in this period lately of just taking up space and expanding and kind of really stepping into kind of let's for lack of a better phrase like the fullness of who I am and

That was, but I have very often felt this like, nope, that's too much. that's like, shut it down. Like don't speak that loudly or that boldly or like that Instagram post is a little too edgy. You're going to upset some people. And that is all due to.

parents reactions essentially of like, nope, you're not allowed to assert yourself, you're not allowed to say no, you're not allowed to become your own person. We need you to be who we need. Yeah, we need you to be the version of you that doesn't get upset, operates within this perfect confines of the good,

who doesn't yell, doesn't scream, doesn't assert himself. But my whole life, I've literally had these visions of being on stage in front of, I mean when I was young, I would have these dreams of being on stage in front of thousands of people, and I've always done public speaking.

I've always done public speaking, like literally since I was in the fifth grade. But so often I will dissociate when I do it or just like almost have like a little mini panic attack. Like I've actually given some like...

like keynotes or whatever, like in the middle of a panic attack. I'm just able to like dissociate from it. So your nervous system is working overtime. Well, cause what's happening is you mentioned this, you alluded to this earlier, kind of when we talking about like the developmental stuff of like who do I need to be for you in this moment? That hypervigilance? Well, you put me in an audience in front of an audience of like a couple hundred people or even a dozen people. Well, my nervous system then was working overtime to be like, oh my gosh, there's a hundred people.

I'm speaking to right now, how am I gonna please every single one of them? How am I gonna put on the mask or the costume that I can be everything to everyone and not upset anybody, et cetera? And so again, I was very, very small in those moments, even though I'm the one on stage. But my sense of self was just so small. And now, through all the work I've done, it's essentially reversed. I can step out on stage now.

and be like, alright, I don't have to please everyone in the audience. In fact, I can't. Because I'm not for everybody.

And I feel like so many people it's so hard to recognize and to understand that these Ways that we are showing up in the world have these scripts that we're reading off of in our head that were written so long ago. Yes. It's so hard for people to recognize that so many people are like well That's just how I am. Yeah. Well, that's just what I do and every time I hear that I just I one feels sad for them and I just get so frustrated by it

Because every piece of me just wants to inject them with whatever they need to understand that they don't have to be stuck They don't have to be there and that's kind of you know, like the idea behind this podcast Aware and Thriving It's building a safe space to be self aware enough so that you can have the life that you want the relationship you want like Get to the place where you want to be with yourself. Yeah, and you don't have to just Lay down and say well, this is just who I am Yeah, like there are options for you

to get there in a safe way. Yes, exactly. you know, kind of what you're touching on here is like trauma and even just extreme stress. know, not everything is trauma. Okay, let's just say that. It narrows our sense of choice. That's true. And it narrows our vision.

in terms of being able to see the different possibilities that are out there. especially when we talk about, let's say, early childhood trauma and developmental trauma, of course, why would you know any different? Because that's going to manifest itself differently than, let's say, a traumatic car wreck or a sexual assault as an adult.

One's not worse than the other, to be really clear about that, but they might present differently. And so, you know, the folks that kind of, it's like, yeah, they're like, this is just how I am.

And, well you're here for a reason. You know, you're here for a reason. Because like some way, or form, like this way of being, I will just use myself as an example. We'll go back to my New York City days. Like that was somewhat unsustainable to say the least. And by the end, was like my year four, year five in New York City, there were days where I was just paralyzed with anxiety, like on a Saturday on the couch.

and I would be there for like six hours. And of course I would have a to-do list of like 37 things that I wanted to get done that day and you know probably a 70 mile ride for tri training and whatnot. And it's in this shame cycle because here I am like a top performer you know at the Wall Street Journal, Ironman triathletes, you know.

all things that are, I was making good money, everything on paper looked great and I'm sitting there just paralyzed. Like what is wrong with me? Why can't I get off this couch? Why can't I just take out the trash?

And I was just completely in a free state. And I see that time and time again. Yeah, I get that, how you're saying trauma. It almost puts you in this state of like learned helplessness.

Sometimes. Yeah. It makes me think of like, have a rescue dog at home who was severely abused before I got him. Yeah. And he goes into a state of freeze, almost like there's no escape. Yep. And there was a study that I read about that they did on dogs a long time ago where they put them in cages and there was a shock pad on the bottom of the cage. Yeah. I know what you're talking about. Yeah. And they would shock the dogs and the cages would be closed so the dogs couldn't escape. Then they open the doors.

shocked the dogs again and the dogs didn't run out, didn't try to escape because they had learned there's nothing I can do. Yeah, yeah. And that's, that's an, and I mean, I see this all the time where,

You know, it's really easy, like let's say with sexual assault survivors, there can be this real deep sense of shame of like, why didn't I fight back? You know, don't even get me started on the court system because you know, like a defense lawyer is gonna sit there and go after, like why didn't you fight back? Well, let me, every...

SA survivor needs to know, if they're prosecuting like needs to have a somatic practitioner in the courtroom to explain the nervous system response. Yeah, because shutdown and dissociation are brilliant survival mechanisms and and so much of what I work with folks on is, know, people like well, why didn't I just you know, and it's not just with sexual assault, you know any given situation. Why didn't I do

this thing, you know, and there's a combination of factors that go into that, but it was your nervous system trying to protect you and reacting in a way in an instant, because these things happen, I mean we're talking milliseconds, milliseconds, and kind of going back to what I was saying earlier about like kind of the brain development and whatnot.

Your limbic system has the power to shut down your prefrontal cortex. I was just about to say that. Yeah, it has the power to shut down. when you're in a panic attack, that happens. Sorry, that happens every time you get into a state of flight, right? Or freeze. Well, it's a bit, it's, there's degrees of it. And so it's not necessarily that it shuts it down. It might shut it down completely. Cause here's the thing, your limbic system, your survival system, like let's say

you're being chased by a tiger, it doesn't want you sitting there being like, well is this a male or a female tiger? I think maybe I could fight off a smaller tiger. in what direction is it running? It's just like, no, it wants you to get the F out of there.

or potentially if it sees there is no escape to shut down and your body's gonna release a bunch of different hormones when you shut down to actually make death not as difficult. Okay, so when your nervous system is shutting down your limbic system or your prefrontal cortex, that's shutting off the part of your brain that makes decisions and has logic and reason. Yes, yeah, because it doesn't want you logic and reasoning through an assault or something.

wants you to react. So then after the fact when people are in that shame spiral and they're like why didn't I just do that it's like the fact that you can think about what you should have done now is only because you're not in that state of shutdown or fight or flight. Precisely yeah and and that's why I mean there's there can be so much shame you know around trauma.

or what, and I mean even something as simple as like why didn't I speak up in that meeting? You know, it doesn't have to be trauma. It can be just why didn't I speak up in that meeting? Well, like, I mean I've had this happen a thousand times.

like it wasn't safe for me to or I would like kind of like I watered down my idea to make it like a little more palatable and and then I would be just kicking myself afterwards. Why didn't I just go for it and actually say like the bigger idea, you know in the first place. Well, it's you know, I'm looking for connection and you know these days it's like at work. mean our survival is tied to our paychecks right and our ability to like pay for housing and food and whatnot and we're not

logically thinking about any of this, but we're trying to stay connected to you know, like the tribe if you will we're trying to stay connected to the community even if that's just eight people in a conference room and Like I don't want to look stupid I don't want to get like, you know kind of kicked out or you know, whatever and you know, I want to be trusted I want to be valued and and that's why people generally like human nature is actually not to be great It's actually to gravitate toward the middle 50 % because the middle 50 %

gives you essentially the best chance for survival. When you kind of get away from that middle 50 % you're getting further and further. That's why leadership is so hard.

That's so frustrating. just hate, I hate that fact so much. I hate it so much because often the key to what's actually going to make someone happy and fulfilled and safe is if they get away from that. Yeah, exactly. But the fear keeps them there. The need, the human need for survival keeps them there, keeps them stuck. Yeah. And that's where we increase capacity in SE is just slowly increasing capacity to let's say,

venture out, let's just use a business context and venture out further and further from the middle 50%. And for those, myself included, who want to lead, who want to speak on stages and kind of be at the forefront of things, because that's a very lonely place. It can be kind of dark sometimes. I look back at founding my startup and

You I was responsible for my team. I was responsible for paying them, you know, and everything. And it's just a whole, but I was so used to being an employee for my entire life, essentially. And it was just this whole huge shift. And I remember a mentor of mine says, you have to find your founder friends. You have to find your founder friends. And I didn't, I knew that made sense, but it- As in you needed to find friends that had been in that position? Exactly. Exactly. Because- That's such a good point. Because I would talk to

Like my nine to five friends and well, you're really smart. You'll figure it out This isn't you know, whereas like I would talk to fellow founders like the week that I launched my mental health app like it was really exciting because Everything like you know, it's live right? It's like, oh my gosh. What is your mental? Yeah, my mental health company took a toll on my mental health ironically, but um

No, was an app called Inlet that was initially focused on digitizing the word of mouthways in which we typically find the best clinicians, the best practitioners, et cetera. But we'd been developing it for months, and we set it live, and people signed up, and then...

like people that I didn't know signed up and that was a whole level of excitement of like, my gosh, how did they find this? Are people talking about it? And then 24 hours in, everything broke. The whole thing just crashed. And I went into just pit of despair. like, my gosh, and my perfectionist tendencies and whatever. I was just like, it's over, this is the end of the world, et cetera. My nervousism was really having reaction to it. And I remember the day later calling one of my mentors

And he goes, oh wait, he was like, you launched two days ago? And he goes, he was like, I was like, yeah. And he was like, oh, so like, yeah, you probably launched, it was really exciting, and people signed up, and he was like, and then you had your first sign up from people you don't know, and that was exciting, and was like, and then everything broke like 24 hours later? And I was like, yes! And he was like, yeah, that's normal. And I was like, I was simultaneously like, relieved.

but also a little bit like, wish I had known this sooner. Right. But again, like that's not something that any of my like nine to five friends, not that there's anything wrong with that. Let's just be really clear. Right. But you know, it have possibly given you that insight. That is such a good point. And a huge lesson I feel like I learned a couple of years ago was that you need to be around people who align.

your values, align with your vision, align with who you are. Yeah.

In order to help you grow. Yeah, and you need to be surrounded by people who are More established and more experienced than you in order to figure out what you're doing. Yep And people I think keep themselves so small. It's like so many people fall into the strap of These are like my five friends that I've had my whole life and I'm only going to keep up with these people and life is busy and this is where I'm comfortable and I think so many people don't reach their full potential because they don't allow themselves to be

seen by other people. They don't go out and search for other people that can actually help them understand themselves in a new and different way. Yeah, I mean really it all comes out of what you want. know, I mean there's nothing wrong with just having that same friend group because if that's what you want, that's fine. Yeah, but there you know, if there's something kind of inside of you that's like hold on like I want a little something more like I don't want to lose connection with these people necessarily but I also want a little more. want to you know, I mean I did that with moving to New York. I mean I am still

I spent last weekend with six of my best friends from high school in Philadelphia. We won't surprise one of our other buddies because he's been going through some stuff. you know this is 25 years after high school, 20 years after high school.

Love those guys. They are still like my ride or die humans. I laughed more last weekend than I had in last year combined. Yeah, those people are so important. Yeah. And to your point, if you're wanting something different, if you're wanting to get somewhere else, you have to challenge yourself by meeting new people, by meeting people that align with those visions. Yeah. And that was the thing. Cause I mean, I grew up in Atlanta, born and raised, went to university of Georgia, you know, came back to Atlanta after college.

And I just, I loved it. It was great. But I remember in like kind of my early 20s being like, just, cause I was never, you know, we all know those people that were like, I'm out of here, right? Like they just have this dream of like, I'm going to live, you know, in this city or that city. But like, I just want to get out of my hometown. That wasn't ever me. But in my 20s, early 20s, I was like, I just had this gut feeling of like, I'm going to leave. And I didn't know where, I didn't know why.

But I was just like, I need to kind of spread my wings beyond just this bubble that I grew up in. And that was hard. Like, it was hard. And thankfully, when I moved to New York City, I actually did have, you know, I had some friends from college, and I did have one buddy from high school who, he was one of the guys that we, you I saw last week. He had moved there six months before I did. And so I did have some, you know, some nice,

little tethers, made it easier. But again, was just like, you're leaving your people. we are wired for connection. We're wired for connection. And so much of what we've talked about in this whole conversation is our nervous systems shaping around how do I maintain connection with somebody, whether it's a child trying to maintain connection with their parents or somebody trying

trying

to maintain connection with a romantic partner or a friend, whatever. And that becomes problematic when you sort of realize, this isn't maybe real connection. It's not real deep connection. It's more a set of behaviors that maybe keep us in proximity to each other, but isn't really helping either of us feel heard, seen, and understood on a deeper level.

And you know, it's not to say that those relationships can't change evolve But you know as a couples therapist that both people have to be doing the work because I mean if one person's up leveling It's that's gonna create friction. I again change creates stress, right? It's like you have to at that point when I see that in my couples work. It's like, okay We're at a point now where we're renegotiating this relationship. Yes Even if we're married even if we've been together 15 20

50 years doesn't matter. We're now someone has now changed so much that we are having to renegotiate this contract. Yeah, because they are now it's not that they're an entirely different person very often it might just be that they are more of themselves. Yeah, or their value shifted because yeah values do change. Yeah, because maybe I adopted a certain set of values to stay connected to you. Maybe I put my political beliefs aside, you know, to in order early on to stay connected to you and now I'm like, nope.

Like I don't really love what's going on and I'm gonna start to speak up more. Well, there's a change and that's gonna create some stress Yep, they're often it that often does happen when it's like one partner or the other has gone through a traumatic experience Maybe a loved one died. Maybe they almost lost their life. They had a life-changing surgery or something That's usually the catalyst that makes them reassess their way of thinking about life how they want to live their life who they really are Who they want to express that they are

And that's typically when that change comes about Yeah, and that's the thing It's it's really just somebody saying I'm done hiding I'm done hiding and that can come out in the form of asserting boundaries, you know Speaking with needs standing up for oneself This could take me down so many rabbit holes now. Okay, let's go Well, but that's but I mean, you know the bigger picture because here's the thing I mean this isn't

just with romantic relationships. mean, there's, we haven't talked about this yet, but grief accompanies growth, always. Because as we grow, we actually did sort of touch on this inadvertently, of let's say the version of myself that didn't stand up for himself, that didn't speak my needs in relationships. There's grief.

that and have even if I'm moving into the thing that I want, know, the thing, you know grieving the version of me that didn't speak up and or just didn't do it sooner. You know, it's like well if I could have I would have If I obviously if I had the knowledge in the nervous system shaping that I have now then I would have done a lot of this stuff in my 20s Well, guess what I didn't And so

I think that's one of the things that people just kind of miss, whether it's coaching, therapy, et cetera, is just checking in with grief from time to time. People don't even recognize that it's grief. No, that's the thing. They don't even recognize it, and they don't even necessarily know. Sometimes maybe their relationship with grief, they don't have one, and then that maybe takes some time. let's say, let's just take...

Couple who now has a baby right like they and let's say they really want this baby and they still you know like they're excited and There's a grief

their old life of like, remember when we were just single and we could do whatever we want. And you know, we didn't have responsibility for keeping this tiny human alive. There's grief in that. There's grief in that. And that's where I see a lot of people get stuck because, you they might be on this growth trajectory, but then they kind of like get stuck in the plateau. I don't understand. It's like, well, there, there has it, you haven't necessarily sat with a named like the grief of the

old versions of you. And it almost brings shame into the picture when...

They can't believe that they need to grieve. It's like I should be so happy. Exactly. I should love this. Exactly. Yes. Yeah.

Well, there might be a grieving of that, you maybe need to do. And in that, that's actually going to create more space.

to free up more space and also just help you connect more deeply not just with yourself but also that past version of you. And that's where I think a lot of people get stuck. It's one of those, it's something that's just not talked about enough in the transformation process is grief.

mean, here's the thing, like, especially in our culture in America, like we don't do grief well. We really don't. I struggle with grief myself. It's I honestly, if I'm being true, I hate grief. I hate feeling it. I hate experiencing it. And I spent most of my life avoiding my grief. Yeah. And I was just a few years ago having like full on like mental breakdowns.

single day, like just crying, my nervous system was shot, like I couldn't figure out what was wrong with me. And I couldn't recognize that I was even just grieving. thought like I had a hormone problem. was like, something is like biologically wrong. You thought something was wrong with Yes, I thought something was wrong with me. I even went to therapy and I was like, I am a therapist. I just need like maybe a check-in. Maybe hearing people talk all day is just getting to me.

I just need to come in once a month and kind of unload on someone else. Yeah. You made the plan. Yeah. like, I'm sure to handle this. I'm sure your therapist at the time was like, yeah, we'll see. Exactly. She was just like, yeah, I'm okay with that. And I was like, okay, well I ended up going in there once a week for a solid year and I cried the full hour every single time. I didn't recognize that I was carrying so much grief with me around things that I refused to touch. And it was affecting me on a nervous system level, on a health level, a gut level.

Every aspect of my life. Yeah, and after a year of crying once a week on that couch I finally started to feel like myself again Yeah, yeah, and what happened there was just you know your nervous system had a certain amount of capacity to just push that grief down Because you didn't have the tools and nobody taught you how to be with it Yeah, and so your system had the capacity to hold it and kind of shove it down until it didn't yeah, and thank God

Knew how to choose a therapist and chose someone that does somatic work. I had an inkling that I needed some nervous system work Yeah, and if I had not had someone that was able to help me from a nervous system standpoint That would have been a terrifying process Yeah, because I remember one day where something happened that triggered me and my entire body locked up like my hands were like little claws Yeah, and I was stuck like that for a full 24 hours till I could get in to see my therapist and yeah, it was intense. Yeah

I didn't even see it coming. It was something I did not know would affect me that way. Yeah, and I got in there. not surprised. mean, I see this. and knew all I could see, all I could think was I need to cry. Like I need to release this and I couldn't do it until I was sitting on her couch.

Exactly, because so speaking, you what I said earlier, like when my therapist sat next to me yesterday and that physical touch, you needed that co-regulation in order, because I'll get a little somatic technical here from an SE perspective, like you had, because we use this model that uses sensation, image, behavior, affect, which is essentially just emotion and meaning, and very often,

two of those or maybe three of those will get over coupled with each other and the others will be if there's over coupling there's always under coupling and so you have an under coupling of emotion because you could like feel it you're like all i want to do is cry but i can't so that's an under coupling what does that mean exactly an under coupling it seems like you're just not able to access it okay you're not able it's not as online and why does that happen

this

me not feeling safe? It's essentially how your nervous system shaped. There's no rhyme or reason to like, this person has these, you know, whatever. It's just how your nervous system shaped itself. And so I will use myself as an example. I had sensation and meaning very over coupled. And I kind of mentioned it earlier. Like, okay, my gosh, I felt this in my body. What does it mean? I have to figure this out. I have to intellectualize it. That's an over coupling of sensation.

and meaning, but I had emotion undercoupled from it. I also had behavior undercoupled from it because I would just kind of like freeze, know, instead of actually being able to like maybe get up and like go for a run or walk or whatever and like let that energy dissipate, I would just kind of freeze. So I had behavior undercoupled. You see this a lot with people with like anger, let's say, because there's, you know, people who

I will just use myself. It's like anger and my like assertion of healthy boundaries all the way up to just being like actually angry about something something very valid. There's a lot of BS that went on in my household that was like I was like very rightfully angry about well like, that was not welcome. So I would shove anger down.

And so anger became a great undercut. So when it would kind of come up, I would just kind of squash it. And so the behavior of anger, or let's say just even healthy boundary setting, it's just saying no.

this is not okay, you will not treat me that way. So that could be kind of on the spectrum from anything with frustration all the way up to let's say healthy anger, healthy assertion, and healthy aggression, just saying no, you will not treat me that way. Well me saying no, you will not treat me that way is a behavior.

That's behavior, right? Well, I squashed that big time. So that became undercoupled. anger and no and that healthy assertion became undercoupled. Wow, I you just made something connect in my brain about that situation where was the when grief would come up in this certain scenario.

I would immediately push it down. And I would think to myself, like, I don't have time for this. Like, I have things to do. I have school to get through. have work to get through. Like, I can't be taken over by this grief right now. And that's what it felt like. I would be taken over. would drown in it. Exactly. Those words, would be taken, I can't be taken over by this. And that was your, and that's the thing. It's like people will often shame themselves. know, people are like, oh, that wasn't very healthy.

actually that was very healthy for you. adaptive at that time. Yes, it was very healthy for you. I actually had a client say this earlier, they're like, oh, it's probably not very healthy. it's like, well, no, actually, we'll see. system's there for a reason. Exactly. Because your system knew, you're like, I don't have the tools to deal with this. So we're going to shut this down. Brilliant.

bravo Selena, that, like yay, your nervous system. Like it really did keep me safe. And that's big piece of the work too is honoring and showing compassion towards that part of yourself that kept you safe at that time. Exactly. Like giving her love when she comes up. I just thought about this the other day. It sounds a little like kooky when I say it, but I'm like driving down the street and that part of myself, that age that I was when I would shut down and shut things down, I used to

shame her, I understood her, but I also was just kind of resentful towards her. And now when I think of her, I'm just like, oh, I love that girl. She did what she needed to do. She was strong in the way that she could be at that time. Exactly. It brings whole new meaning to doing the best you can with what you have.

even if that was like not great, you know, at the time, even if it was like lashing out at a partner or, you know, ghosting somebody or, you know, whatever. And people think that if you reject that part of yourself, if you hold this anger towards that part of yourself, that you won't do it again, that it's almost like keeping you accountable, right? Like that I'm not going to do that again because that fucked me up. And it's actually keeping you stuck in that shame, which is going to keep you from making progress that you want to make.

Yeah, because you're actually exiling that part. Use a little IFS language here. For anybody that knows internal family systems, we're exiling that part. Or let's say from a spiritual perspective, that part that's shoved into your shadow.

Well, guess what runs the show? The shadows and the exiles, they're always actually in the driver's seat. And it's tricky. It's tricky to find them. But what we resist persists, essentially. And that's where, mean, so much of what we do in SE is kind of the opposite. I mentioned earlier, it's like, just take a deep breath and calm down. It's like, yeah, in some cases that might actually be healthy, but in others, that's gonna cut off the stress cycle. So so much of what we do in SE is actually sometimes the opposite.

of what, let's say culturally, that we're conditioned to do, or even just kind of conventional wisdom, you know, whatnot. And so often, I I'm sure you did this too, it's like people come in like, I need to fix myself. And holy shit, I was that guy for a very long time. like, I need to fix myself. And it's actually like, you're not broken. Your nervous system was adapting in the best ways that it knew how.

and so much of it is actually bringing these parts and pieces closer. Because what happens, let's say, with trauma or even extreme stress is a part gets separated.

and it just loops on its own because it doesn't know the threat has passed. It doesn't know that that moment's over. And so then if it's still looping, I want to go back to that flavoring that we were talking about, it just sniffs the La Croix version of a situation of like, oh, well, he didn't text me back, or she didn't text me back, or whatever, it can flip the switch, let's say, on that anxious attachment, right? Of like, whoa, oh my gosh.

I didn't get what I needed, you know, as a kid for my parents. Well, I have to move closer to you now. So I'm gonna say 27 texts in a row to make sure that you... all of this is unconscious. All of it's unconscious. Except the behavior. Even sometimes it might be conscious where you're actually doing it. You're like, why am I doing this? You're almost outside of yourself being like...

don't do it. If you could only stop yourself and you're like, well, I'm still doing it. That's your nervous system. It's just taking over. Yeah. And it kind of leads back into that like attachment work of when you look at your attachment style, like if you're anxiously attached, avoidantly attached, whatever you have these certain behaviors that are there to keep you safe. Like reaching out and texting is there to keep you safe. Yep. And so many people then shame themselves for those behaviors too, which keeps them stuck.

And it's like, accept that this is a thing that keeps you safe and help your body. that's what I tell people when we're doing attachment work is we have to help your body recognize that it doesn't have to do this behavior to be safe. Exactly. We have to teach your body that it can be safe. Yes. Before it chooses what to do. Yeah. Which for anxious attachers is absolutely infuriating. Cause I was an anxious attacher and I was like, and I had to figure out like, what are my

Anxious tendencies what the behaviors I engage in and sometimes stopping myself from sending that next text felt excruciating in my absolutely well because you

didn't have the resources to know what to do with the energy. I just had to sit with the energy and try to be okay with it because I wasn't going to someone helping me through it. I was like this self-diagnosing therapist that was like, you can do this. Of course. And reading the book attached and laying in my bed and just putting my phone in the bathroom and being like...

Reasoning myself out of it essentially. Yeah, my whole body was like cringing and that's the thing is like this isn't a reasoning process It's like yeah, it sounds like you kind of white knuckled your way through which I think most people are probably doing but you know, it's like let's say in like therapy mental health, know, talk about resourcing right because I think that's what's so infuriating whether it coaching or therapy like just kind of talk there if you're like mindset coaching or whatever it's like like just do this different behavior and people are like I

I can't. I worked with a coach for two and a half years and there was just time, I just wanted to punch him in face. No, I can't just shove my emotions aside. My whole body feels like it's on fire right now and if I actually try to go away from that, it actually gets worse. Mine's a little more of an extreme example but...

Let's say for people who have these certain attachment adaptations, whether it be anxious, avoidant, disorganized, recognizing, okay, there's something here that's trying to keep me safe, but resorting, and the same with boundaries, sorry, I'm jumping around a little bit here, of people talking about, okay, let's just set healthy boundaries, just say no to the person. Well, that could just flip a switch, and it did for me when I really started to assert myself and set boundaries. like, oh my gosh.

If you're trying to set boundaries with somebody who isn't used to you setting boundaries and you you know you're generally the people that we need to do it with the most they may not react well. Well nobody teaches us how to resource ourselves Exactly to deal with the reaction that that person is having exactly one of my favorite questions when I'm teaching boundaries is What do you think it would feel like in your body to say no or to assert this boundary? Yeah, and they're

The reaction I typically, it's either I have no idea or it's like this, whoa. Like, no. I don't want to that. And then they follow up with, it is easier to not set the boundary and not have to feel that way. Exactly. And that's so, of course, because at some point in that person's past, myself included, trying to assert yourself and setting boundaries was not, not only was it not welcome, it might have been met with some very

real whether it be emotional or perhaps physical

un-safety And so yeah, of course your nervous system adapted to be like, well we're not gonna do that again to keep you safe because the result of the consequence of actually trying to set the boundary and assert yourself is so much worse than you actually just saying, you know, hello all of my avoidant people, right? Yeah, this part really kills me. It's like when I am just trying to be a friend and this is where my enmeshment comes in.

therapist I can see that you're stuck and all I want and I want so badly for you to feel safe to be who you are and say what you mean and assert your boundaries and it's not my place to help you through that you're not asking me I'm just your friend but when I see it in people it just lights a fire in me and it makes me so angry for them yeah yeah I hear you I hear you

That's one of my favorite things to do with clients is boundary work. Mine too. There are some somatic exercises and interventions that we have that I mean just really, I don't want to say cut deep because that sounds threatening, but like really get to the core. That's what I'm looking for. Like really get to the core of like what is it like to actually feel the boundary in your body and to listen to your body's wisdom.

of it saying, no, you're staying this distance away. Or you're allowed to come this distance close, this far close. And yeah, mean, boundaries are inherently somatic. especially if there's sort of like childhood trauma, developmental trauma,

That's one of those bypasses that we get so used to doing with our nervous systems of just kind of saying yes to everything. Just an automatic yes, know? Of course it's going to lead to burnout and resentment over time.

And so many people think that it's mean to set a boundary. Yes. That because it's going to hurt someone, upset them, cause a reaction that it means it's wrong, that it's bad. I'm bad. Yeah. And the reframe that I give people for that is actually boundaries are generally about connection. Yes. It's about protecting the relationship. It's protecting the relationship because one of my favorite definitions of boundaries is it's the distance at which I can love you and love myself.

at the same time. Or the distance at which I can stay connected to you and stay connected to myself at the same time.

I think a big misconception with boundaries that I recognize is that a boundary is I'm telling you what I do or don't like. So that means that you don't do that. Yeah. And Yes, in a sense, but it's also like boundaries. One of my favorite ways of looking at it as boundaries are not what you're telling the other person.

they have to do. That's a request. Right, that's a request or a demand. Yeah. Boundaries are what you're telling them you're going to do to keep yourself safe. Yes. Exactly. It's letting them know when you do this, this is how it affects me. So if it continues, this is either how I'm going to feel or this is what I'm going to do in response to keep myself safe. Yes. You can have your autonomy and do whatever you want.

I'm just letting you know the effect that it has on me and because of that effect, what I'm going to have to do to keep me safe. Yeah. That's another one of my favorite definitions and the way that I phrase it, I got it from Dr. Becky Kennedy. She says, a boundary is an action that you can take that requires nothing of the other person, which is exactly what you just said. just more concise way. A succinct. That's again, those two definitions of the distance at which

I can stay connected to you and connected to myself at the same time and a boundaries and action that you can take it's not a request because people very often You know, they're like I set the boundary and it's like no you just made a request Like that that's my boundary exactly as they can't do that. Yeah Actually, so what are you do about it? You guys take that approach in your relationship then it's now you guys just dictate each other's behavior over and over again Yeah, and now neither of you

Are who you truly are? Yeah, exactly. You're self-abandoned. You're asking the other person to abandon themselves for you in a sense. Yeah, yeah, but it's

It's wild how many people just struggle. mean, I'm not surprised by it by any means, but like when people really start to feel that innate sense of boundaries in their bodies, like so much opens up. Yeah. And it kind of makes sense on a societal level. we look at how society has grown, it was like children were to be seen, not heard. Like that's what people, that's what my mother grew up in that kind of environment. Children are to be seen,

I don't have an opinion. I don't have autonomy. And then she's supposed to grow up into a full adult and be comfortable setting boundaries. How? Her nervous system has never done that before. Exactly. Yeah. mean, it can be so jarring to people's nervous systems. there's one particular exercise that I do with people where every... And I had the same reaction

When I was first introduced to it, it was like, what's this really gonna do? It's pretty simple exercise, you know, whatever. And it stirs up so much, so fast, not that that's the goal, but people are always pretty shocked by how effective this particular somatic intervention is with realizing, whoa, my body actually does tell me, and it's been screaming at me potentially

for years and we've just been bypassing it and really just getting that healthy innate sense of, know, not just boundaries, but I see people's like spines come online and they kind of stand up straighter and like just their presence, like their essence, their aura gets bigger as they do this work and they, you know, essentially kind of develop that like, ooh, like what's that person got? You know, like that person that walks

into the room and just kind of owns it from the get go. Not that they're trying, but because they are so deeply connected to themselves and just kind of unshakably connected to themselves where people just kind of look at them. I don't know what he's got. Right. It's like, that's when they're fully differentiated of I know where I start and you begin. Exactly. I know where I end and you begin. Exactly. That's differentiation. That's I'm in my own space.

a big part of that too is teaching people to be comfortable, allowing other people to be uncomfortable with who you are and the boundaries you set and how you show up. So many people are not comfortable with disappointing their friend, their spouse, their mom, their dad. Yeah, because then they jump into managing their reaction. Because again, that's probably the pattern of like, my gosh, I need you to be okay, so I'm okay.

know, like their reaction is not your responsibility. Their reaction is in like long-term relationships really don't get that. They get into this pattern of codependence. Yeah. Where I'm not okay if you're not okay. I've gotten into the habit of always thinking of you first, putting you first. And so now if I have needs, if I have boundaries and I'm upsetting you with that, then I'm a bad partner. I'm a bad person. Yeah.

And it's so hard for people to learn that that's just simply not true. Yeah. And not healthy. Yeah, exactly. And so much of it, it's like, hey, this is how you can love me well. This is how we can stay connected.

Yeah, because when you think about it and you start out in a relationship with someone, you fall in love with each other, not what you do for each other, not how you manage each other. Right. And over time, it slowly evolves into that sort of dynamic. Yeah. But that person didn't fall in love with you because you learned how to manage their emotions. Right. Or learned how to fit yourself into this box that makes them comfortable. Yeah.

they got to know you as a person and they fell in love with who you are. So setting boundaries is actually almost like a reminder for them of who you are and who they fell in love with. Yeah, exactly.

Well,

What would you want the audience to know about getting into nervous system work, starting their journey of becoming self-aware? I think first and foremost, there's nothing wrong with you. I almost feel like a little bit of emotion as I say that because I cannot emphasize that enough because there's so many people out there.

that they think they're broken. They think they're just sitting there like, what's wrong with me? And they see everybody else kind of going around, of living their lives, like able to kind of function. And then there's just this like, really at the core is this shame, because I what's wrong with me is inherently shame based. There's nothing wrong with you. Like your nervous system shaped every single one of your behaviors, even if you know they're really shitty, right? I talked about how many people I ghosted in New York.

while I was dating and like there's nothing wrong with you.

Yes, there's ways that we can work with that shame. It does not have to be forever. You can get to a point where literally just every part of yourself, every version of yourself, you can truly actually connect with and love. And it's not as easy as like, just love yourself. Because holy shit, I tried that for so long and it didn't work. And then...

I was like, there really is something wrong with me. Because everybody talks about self-love and just love yourself and have compassion. And I just thought for the longest time that it was just this thing that was available to everybody else except me. And that I just couldn't figure it out. Mind you, I still kept trying to figure it out, which is inherently shame-based. And so really kind of getting back to your question of first and foremost, there's nothing wrong with you.

And when you learn the structure of your nervous system, when you learn how your nervous system shaped to keep you safe, when you learn that all of that is driving every single behavior that you've ever had, and every thought for the most part that you've ever had,

That's where I see people, their ability to really tune in and just be like, wow, okay, there's that self-compassion of I really did do this in order to stay safe, whether it be physically, emotionally, otherwise. I did it to stay connected. When you learn these things and really kind of understand the nervous system on a deep level,

A whole new world opens up. A whole new world. mean, truly opens up.

where you can kind of at any given moment sort of pinpoint, wow, okay, this is the state my nervous system's in and I'm feeling this, but when you bring that awareness, then we can choose differently. We talked earlier about choice. so there's stress, trauma, et cetera, that narrows our sense of choice. And when you understand yourself on that core level of the nervous system, different choices open up to you.

And that's not to say that just because you see the choice means it's easy. We talked earlier about expansion and even the good stuff can feel pretty scary. Well, okay, let's just take a small step towards that different choice or even just considering, like you said earlier about, what would it feel like? What comes up for you when you imagine setting this boundary? whoa, I don't want to feel that. Well, we're still a step closer in that moment.

you choosing something different. Right. yeah, I mean this, I just see it time and time again with my clients. Like whole new, because they always come in, and you get this too, know with couples work, and even individual works, like they come in wanting, you know, two or three things, but...

Somatic experiencing specifically, it's like knowing the source code to a video game or a computer program It's sort of like, oh, I'm playing the video game and I'm learning each level and I'm learning. And by the way, I'm not a gamer, but I think most people can at least imagine relating to this.

you're trying to get to the final boss, right? At the end of the level, you beat that one and then it's on to the next level and it's a little bit harder and I'm still kind of battling, I know this situation because I've seen it before, semantic experiencing is like going directly to the source code and we can just delete the boss. And that's not to say that it's a quick process. So much of, I kind of joked

of my clients, you know, they'll be like, all right, you want me to slow that down, don't you? It really is slowing down to speed up. And it's the fastest way that I've ever experienced to get to not just the change, but the long-term transformation.

term relief. We're not talking just relief here. We're talking both the relief as well as the expansion and the embodiment and the realization of not just who you are but everything you've ever dreamed of. I love that point. I love that point of letting people know the slower you go the faster you will get there. Because if you let your nervous system

build its window of tolerance along the way, then you're going to see results so much quicker because it's going to be incorporating what you logically know and what it feels. and it is, and we're talking long-term permanent change. Permanent change. Because when we don't, when we try to keep speeding up, your nervous system's just going to keep shutting you down in one way or another. It's just like working out. It's just like...

It's just like working out how you have to have rest days. You have to let your body take in the information and convert it and store it. You have to have rest days when you're working out for your muscles in order for them to keep growing. And those are the most important days. That rest, I mean, it's why we sleep. That rest. You have to give that to your nervous system as well. Yeah.

So if people wanted to work with you, how would they find you? Probably the easiest way to find me on Instagram. My handle is @murph.live.

So yeah, find me on Instagram. That's also my website URL. So just go to murph.live. I'll link all that to Yeah, can find, yeah, we can link to it in the show notes. But yeah, one of those two places. I put out a lot of content on Instagram. And so if you're kind of looking to like dive deeper and understand your nervous system a little bit better, you know, follow me on Instagram. I also have a sub stack newsletter. It's called relearn to.

fly and we can link to that too. Okay. But yeah and that's where like I'm actually giving you a little more kind of deeper stuff and like it's a space where you all have storytelling you know kind of from a personal perspective and then relating that to like here's what's going on in my nervous system. I love that. I think the best way to learn is by listening to others experiences and listening to stories which is again the purpose of this whole thing. Is getting to hear other people's accounts.

of what they're experiencing and how they work through that and how they got to where they are. Yeah. What drives them. Yep. Yeah. And I have group courses and I also work with people individually. So yeah, you can find all that. Cool. Well, thank you for being here today. This was so fun. This was so much fun. I feel like I could talk to you for like six hours. We could. We can do a round two. Yeah. We're gonna have to. Okay. Yeah. It sounds good. Thanks.