The Unfiltered Agent: Ben Madden on Authenticity, Leadership, and Agency Without the Fluff

In this episode of The Viking Chats, Kristjan Byfield sits down with the brilliantly unfiltered Ben Madden—Principal Director at Fine & Country, founder of Digital Sparks, and all-around champion for doing estate agency differently.

Titled “The Unfiltered Agent: Ben Madden on Authenticity, Leadership, and Agency Without the Fluff”, this episode is a straight-talking deep dive into what’s broken, what’s working, and what the future should look like in residential lettings and estate agency. Ben’s journey spans the launch (and exit) of one of London’s most awarded agencies, to helping shape strategy at Fine & Country, and now leading a digital marketing agency that’s showing agents how to stop blending in and start standing out.

If you’ve ever felt like the property industry is full of noise, ego, and “best practices” that don’t actually serve your team or your clients, Ben’s here to call it out—and offer something better. He shares candid reflections on leadership, burnout, brand building, and why the next wave of agency success will be powered by human connection, creative content, and a whole lot less BS.

Expect insights on:

• Why letting go of control (and ego) is essential for scaling with sanity.
• The real story behind launching Digital Sparks—and why most agents still don’t get digital.
• What it takes to build a team that sticks around and actually likes coming to work.
• How authenticity (not just algorithms) drives growth online and in the branch.
• The power of showing up, being visible, and talking about the stuff that actually matters—including mental health.

Kristjan and Ben also dive into the human side of leadership: the mistakes, the pivots, and the messy middle of growing a business without losing yourself. They explore what it means to be a modern agency owner in 2025—one who’s not afraid to ask for help, show vulnerability, and build a business with soul.

There’s a reason Ben’s voice cuts through in an industry full of sameness—he says what others won’t. And in this episode, he opens up like never before.

If you’re an estate or letting agent who wants to lead with heart, innovate with purpose, and build a business that’s both profitable and personal, this one’s for you.

No jargon. No fluff. Just real talk, real tools, and a reminder that the best agents today? They’re the ones willing to do it differently.

Transcript

Jun 18, 2025

Viking chat with Ben Madden - Transcript

00:00:00

 
Kristjan Byfield: Cool. Well, ready to go. Right. Hello everybody and welcome to the latest episode of the Viking Chats podcast. And I'm joined today by the skinny Jure and softly spoken Ben Madden. Hey buddy.
Ben Madden: That is the most interesting introduction I've ever had. And I'll take it. I
Kristjan Byfield: Look,
Ben Madden: will take
Kristjan Byfield: I'm
Ben Madden: it.
Kristjan Byfield: I'm just disappointed I didn't get a get a description in there of what you look like in a black dress because that that really should have been part of that bio.
Ben Madden: Yeah, I mean
Kristjan Byfield: really the only person who can give Posh Spice and Sporty Spice a run for their money at the same time.
Ben Madden: I think uh this podcast will come a day earlier. I think it would have been funnier for us to be filming it like actually Friday after I've been beaten up. I think that would be a very different look and vibe. That's Yeah, that that's when we should have done this.
 
 

00:00:54

 
Ben Madden: But as you know, I'm happy that we're doing it now. But I still got my nose intact.
Kristjan Byfield: Now, for those who don't know what the hell I'm talking about, first things first, me seeing Ben in a dress, not a private pastime habit that we have, not a spin-off side action group, the boys club. Uh, this relates to some shenanigans that actually, if I remember correctly, Ben was the instigator of uh, and wrote myself and other I mean, Cyber Well doesn't fall into that category. he's he's unaware of thing and and a willing participant in everything. Um, but for the rest of us, we uh slightly naively agreed last year for the agents giving ball uh to take part with Ben uh and perform as the Spice Boys. Um, and no, that's not some kind of Panasian pop tribute. Uh we uh tried our best uh to replicate that iconic ' 90s pop girl group. Uh and we did it with a plum, I have to say.
Ben Madden: Oh, I love the confidence the Yeah, for anyone who hasn't seen it, Christian is has delivered that perfectly.
 
 

00:02:11

 
Ben Madden: For anyone who has seen it, Christian's a liar. Um, there you go.
Kristjan Byfield: I'm not a liar. I'm just I'm just, you know, I like to massage the truth. Um, you know, there's poetry in everything that we do in life, Ben. You should know that as a marketeteer.
Ben Madden: You are You are the ultimate poet, mate. I'll give you that. I'll give you
Kristjan Byfield: Now,
Ben Madden: that.
Kristjan Byfield: talking about you having a battered nose, we're not talking about your typical East London estate agent after a hard week on a Friday down the pub. We are talking about you going a few rounds again, not with an East London agent after a tough week in a Friday night in an East London pub, but you are actually taking part in Rumble in the Jungle.
Ben Madden: Yeah. Yeah. Bad choices all around here. Life choices. Really got to look at myself in the mirror. So, um, yeah. My this thing I decided a few years ago is I'm going to take part in like some sort of event every year.
 
 

00:03:08

 
Ben Madden: It focuses the mind. You know, you know, I try and do charity stuff, but this is like front and center. Have to do it. Put yourself on the chopping block. Uh, so last year we did Spice Boys. The year before that I did a dance which was the most terrifying thing I've ever done. This year it's a boxing match. It's meant to be against the property professional but um because I'm getting on a bit in age and I'm quite I'm a bit of a lump. They didn't really have a matchup.
Kristjan Byfield: getting on a bit, Mr. Muscles. Hold on a minute. You're being You're being a little bit too modest here. It's because of your hard 75 you've done for the last 90 days. I met up with you recently and was like, I might expect a little comment after Ben. I've been looking after myself the n last 90 days. you walked in the room with f****** guns like Mr. T. And I was like, oh disappointing
 
 

00:03:54

 
Ben Madden: This is the most surreal start to a podcast. This is I'm loving it. This is going to get paid over and over and over again. Um just this f just this five minutes for loop.
Kristjan Byfield: podcast in the morning, Mr.
Ben Madden: Um this is this is this is it. This has made my day. This made my week. This is the hype I need for tomorrow. Yeah. So tomorrow rumble with the agents. meant to be fighting a state agent, not fighting someone who is now um a bit of a boxer, not a professional, but um used to be a rap musician. His name is uh Big Tobes. Um you can see him on YouTube. He's a big boy. Um he likes a hay maker. Definitely not what I signed up for, but um it's for Centerpoint, which actually, as charities goes, is is just a phenomenal charity. I'm such a huge supporter.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: Um, for anyone who doesn't know, it helps young people uh get out of homelessness.
 
 

00:04:48

 
Ben Madden: Um, I just think it's just it's awful. We have as part of actually as part of this event, I thought more and more about how lucky my life was as a young man and how what some people are going through. I've just got I I've just it's just astonishing that as a 16-year-old you could be on the street and be homeless
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah,
Ben Madden: and so you really really brilliant work and so it's shining light on a good charity. we're going to raise loads of money and if I get beaten up, you know, I guess that's the added benefit for a lot of my friends.
Kristjan Byfield: there's there's going to be a lot of people who as long as it's nothing serious, they're going to have quite a lot of fun seeing you see you knock down a peg or two, won't they, mate?
Ben Madden: Honestly, I've never So, we've got a table at the event because um yeah, that's what you do. You take a table and I put it out to people, you know, who who would like to come.
 
 

00:05:34

 
Ben Madden: I've never been so popular. Everybody wants to come and see me get punched in the face. And yeah, you're exactly right. Nobody wants to see me get really hurt. Like I've had a lot of messages like everything going to be okay. But I've had plenty of that.
Kristjan Byfield: be
Ben Madden: Like
Kristjan Byfield: okay, but
Ben Madden: yeah,
Kristjan Byfield: can't wait to see you kiss the canvas.
Ben Madden: black eye, you know, broken nose that you recover from. Absolutely cool with that. I'm not cool with that, but yeah. Okay. All right. Great. So yeah, wish me luck.
Kristjan Byfield: Nice. So, um can Well, so I tell you what, when we publish this, which when when are you doing it? Tonight or tomorrow night?
Ben Madden: tomorrow night. So,
Kristjan Byfield: Tomorrow.
Ben Madden: 19th of June.
Kristjan Byfield: Okay. So, uh we'll try and get this out tomorrow in some sort of format. And then what we'll do, we'll get you to drop a link in the comments
 
 

00:06:23

 
Ben Madden: Nice.
Kristjan Byfield: where people can donate.
Ben Madden: Great. Great.
Kristjan Byfield: All right.
Ben Madden: Thank you.
Kristjan Byfield: So, and it's it's lovely. I didn't realize you were doing it for Centerpoint. So, Centerpoint is the charity. Uh the last time the Esters allowed me to turn up in my full Viking nonsensical regala uh in in the outfit that usually results in a lot of DMs from my Icelandic family being like, "What the f*** are you wearing? But the last time the Esters allowed me to turn up Ala Viking, I always do it for charity. Uh and that was for Center
Ben Madden: What?
Kristjan Byfield: Point. So yeah, absolutely.
Ben Madden: What?
Kristjan Byfield: It is is a very very worthy charity uh tackling an issue that is is yeah, quite frankly a mystery in this day and
Ben Madden: Mhm.
Kristjan Byfield: age. There we go. So look, talking about centerpoint, I think that leads on quite nicely to something you and I you and I work kind of work on together.
 
 

00:07:18

 
Kristjan Byfield: Um, and that is the boys club. Um, so for those of you who are not familiar with the boys club, um, it is currently a Facebook group. Um, I think we're we're we're trying to figure out what are other logical channels for it to operate in. But for now, um, it is a closed Facebook group, uh, which is easy to join. I think the simple criteria is you just have to be a boy who's grown up a little bit. Um, maybe not mentally. Um
Ben Madden: just Yeah. Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: um but look, we're trying we're doing our best to try and tackle this this unfathomable cloud that is men's mental health right now. Right. And I
Ben Madden: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: think
Ben Madden: Look, go on. Go on. Sorry, I interrupted you.
Kristjan Byfield: I think I think no no I think you know I think the interesting thing with you and I is I think I think we both kind of see ourselves as quite mentally robust people. Um but this is definitely something that we've seen impact people around us whether that's friends, family, industry colleagues, old school mates um whatever it is.
 
 

00:08:36

 
Kristjan Byfield: Now, um, tell us a bit more, mate. Obviously, you know, this was very much your kind of project to begin with and your your what what what made you feel like you needed to take take some action here and try and do something?
Ben Madden: So yes, joining the dots up. Um I think you're right. You and I fall into a category where we're quite lucky to our DNA means we're quite sort of mentally maybe emotionally resilient. And I think maybe some of that is through lived experience. Some of that is is genetic. some of that is just that's it is what it is. Um and so I don't really speak to this subject from a great deal of lived experience
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: but um I guess why it became almost like a passion for me uh which sounds sort of strange to almost say that aloud actually. So my granddad passed away probably about 15 years ago. I was raised by two um quite tough parents um but really tough actually.
 
 

00:09:39

 
Ben Madden: I'm I'm understating that. my mom uh her her dad, the grandfather I'm talking about, he was a London gangster, very tough, very unpleasant human being at times. Uh he would beat my nan to a pulp in front of my mom. So she grew up as a child seeing that, witnessing that. Um it led to my mom being a very tough person. Uh
Kristjan Byfield: Wow.
Ben Madden: because it was just it was it was a horrible environment. Um my dad's mother mom passed away before he was a teenager. So he was raised on a council estate in West London by his brick layer dad who was an alcoholic. Um and so they they they just were raised in tough environments. They're tough people. They're combative people.
Kristjan Byfield: No.
Ben Madden: Um the reason I'm just painting that picture is because when my granddad died, my my mom's dad who was the gangster who there was a relationship but it was yeah very strange relationship as a child. I thought it was normal but looking back very strange relationship.
 
 

00:10:30

 
Ben Madden: Um my mom came close to having a breakdown which is quite a strange thing to you know someone that she you know someone that very strange relationship with him wasn't close to him um this tough woman that I'd never seen cry or you know very rarely would you say upset ferocious had came close to having a breakdown you know it took time to for her to feel better there was medication involved and so I think that was my first insight into um maybe everything is not exactly as it seems.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: Um 15 years ago, you know, mid20ies, bit naive, bit cockshaw, you know, you if you think 20 years ago, you used to say things like, well, you're depressed because you want to be depressed. Yeah. That was how naive people were around the subject of depression.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: You can
Kristjan Byfield: Just
Ben Madden: you
Kristjan Byfield: cheer
Ben Madden: can
Kristjan Byfield: up.
Ben Madden: stop
Kristjan Byfield: Just be
Ben Madden: you
Kristjan Byfield: happy.
Ben Madden: want. Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: Just
 
 

00:11:17

 
Ben Madden: You
Kristjan Byfield: stop
Ben Madden: know,
Kristjan Byfield: playing on the dark s***.
Ben Madden: and that, you know, honestly, 20 years ago, I think that's the world we were in. and I was one of those characters and I saw it with my mom firsthand and was like, "Well, if this tough woman is not capable of just fixing herself, it's a legitimate thing." So, my first sort of insight then a few years later, we had someone in our in my first business um young guy uh we he joined the business right out of school, worked his way from um administrative position to a marketing position to a sales position and really good kid. Um uh I describe it. Max had this huge hair, short guy, amazing at basketball. Like you just don't see this coming. Like he like when I say amazing, it was like watching a professional athlete and
Kristjan Byfield: Nice.
Ben Madden: he's half like he's so much short shorter than sort of your average guy in the UK, let alone a basketball player who's dwarfing him.
 
 

00:12:07

 
Ben Madden: Anyway, really good kid. He um smoked a bit of wacky backy every now and again and found himself smoking the wrong stuff just as he got a promotion and the sort of combination of events led to him not getting enough sleep. There was a really potent strain of um something doing the rounds in the UK. Anyway, he found he had a breakdown and it happened in such an extreme fashion in the space of three days. He went
Kristjan Byfield: Wow.
Ben Madden: from being like, well, we're not something's not right about Max to um hospitalized with it.
Kristjan Byfield: Wow.
Ben Madden: And I um I think in hindsight now I can look back and think that I felt I the reason I it had such an impact on me is I think I should have seen it. I should have spotted it. I should have been able to do something about it sooner. And that's why it had such a um it was had such a big impact on me at the time.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: Um whether I was I I was probably being a bit hard on myself because I didn't even work in the same office as him.
 
 

00:13:03

 
Ben Madden: But you know, you feel as a business owner, you feel parental, especially to the young ones that you bring from school and you feel um
Kristjan Byfield: Heat.
Ben Madden: like you should spot these things. So anyway, actually I've said recently on video when asked my proudest moment. People ask, you know, what's your proudest moment? And I think I don't particularly like that question. Yeah, I'm not you know, you know, people say things like a wars. Um my proudest moment is the way the team uh behaved in bringing this person, I think, back to life.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: And so we had a really like hardcore sales team, lots of fun, intense. And when uh Max was ready to come back, I stayed in contact with his parents. He was heavily medicated. It took a long time. We're going to bring him back on a part-time basis. Very different role. And when I brought the entire team together and said, "Max is going to come back." Um you guys are known for taking the piss, for being a nightmare, for doing things you shouldn't do.
 
 

00:13:57

 
Ben Madden: you're brilliant job, but I can see that in this area, this is not you. This is not where you guys perform well. I expect a different sort of behavior.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: And hand on heart, I believe that that team brought this young man back to life.
Kristjan Byfield: Wow.
Ben Madden: They brought him back in. It was softly softly. They built up his energy. They built up his confidence. And in a matter of time, he was back. He was good. He was solid. And those two instances I think I I haven't thought I've thought about it recently because people asked me about the boys club. I think they're the two things that sort of shaped direction of travel that I've had those experiences. It's a real thing. It can happen to anyone. Um
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: and yeah
Kristjan Byfield: I think it's really interesting you talk about that and it's really interesting how you talked about how you frame that with the team.
 
 

00:14:46

 
Kristjan Byfield: Well, that's um my brother-in-law uh I I call him that. Um he's he's the the father to my niece. um he had some extreme mental health issues a while back and it's something he will now have to deal with for the rest of his life. Um but I think um much in a in a similar vein to what you've said I kind of you know was a very brash confident cocky kind of teenager early 20s person. Um, and then thinking, God, I'm trying to think when this happened. This would have probably been kind of 15 years ago. Um, so we'd started bass, but early doors. Um, and I still had a pretty simplistic view of
Ben Madden: Mhm.
Kristjan Byfield: life and how we got on with stuff. And and like many people, I think 15, 20 years ago, um my thoughts on mental health were um insanely uninformed and very
Ben Madden: Mhm.
Kristjan Byfield: simplistic. I mean, as we've touched on earlier, it was kind of that uh you know, just put a smile on your face and and you
 
 

00:16:04

 
Ben Madden: Mhm.
Kristjan Byfield: know, just just crack on, mate. You'll be fine.
Ben Madden: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: You know, come out the other end. And um you know we were we uh my my brother-in-law got got sectioned under
Ben Madden: Mhm.
Kristjan Byfield: the Mental Health Act um and obviously separated from my sister but was obviously very much still a part of my niece's life who was still young at the time. And it's been fascinating to see her
Ben Madden: Mhm.
Kristjan Byfield: grow up knowing that her dad has had these issues and kind of at times having some not scary intimidating but just scary bewildering moments through to where she now as a 25 year old woman and uh she actually currently works in a mental health charity for young
Ben Madden: Okay.
Kristjan Byfield: people which I'm sure is is is not uh by chance but um sorry bringing it back to what I was trying to say When my sister first told me, I remember having a very naive and very immature reaction to it
Ben Madden: Mhm.
Kristjan Byfield: at the time.
 
 

00:17:07

 
Kristjan Byfield: Um, however, uh, because my sister was separated, separated from him, um, he at the time lived in hybrid, which is 10 15 minutes from our office in a car. Um, and once he was released, his family, none of his family live in London. Um, they are not the greatest of communicators, especially about difficult stuff.
Ben Madden: Mhm.
Kristjan Byfield: Um, so, you know, my sister turned to me at the time and was like, look, he he needs someone he feels safe with that he can call up when he's spiraling. um and talk to or be with. Um and it, you know, it transpired that the only person realistically that could be was me because I was the only person close enough who was in a position where I had, you know, being self-employed, I had an element of control of being able to go, well, actually, I don't have a meeting for three hours, so you know. Um, and we went through a period of about 3 months where I would see him several times a week. Um, you know, and I would get a call from him on a fairly regular occasion.
 
 

00:18:29

 
Kristjan Byfield: And it would either be uh I'm spiraling. How soon can you get here? Or I've started spiraling. I'm I'm I'm walking I'm going to walk down your way. It would take him, you know, 45 minutes to an hour to walk down. And we'd we'd meet just up the road in Hawkton Square and we'd have a walk. And um you know we we you and I talk about and we we'll we'll obviously come on to this in a minute are our our jousting over how how we how we develop the boys club and how we tackle this this leviathan that is men's mental health and the challenges a lot of men face. But the fascinating thing with Chris was um I have no medical background, no mental health training. You know, as I said, as we both said, my attitudes to mental health at the start of that process were were very naive uh and simple um and and uh very uninformed. Um but interestingly what helped him through that 3 months was us just talking.
 
 

00:19:43

 
Kristjan Byfield: That's all
Ben Madden: Mhm.
Kristjan Byfield: we would I would just let him talk. I would just let him whatever was bouncing around. I mean he's hyper intelligent guy. Hyper hyper intelligent. Um, I mean, I won't go into too many details, but my my sister had to go through in-depth security checks when she went to move in with him. Um, he was involved with government stuff where he would come home with a suitcase full of top secret documents. Um, and would advise government and all sorts of things on Yeah. So um and obviously you know a lot of that fed into the issues he had and it was it was fascinating how much of a difference was achieved like I said literally by him and I and that's all we would ever do whether I went up to him or he came down to me it would just be us walking along the street walking around a garden square doing laps around a park um and it would just be letting him you
Ben Madden: Mhm.
 
 

00:20:47

 
Kristjan Byfield: know unburn burden himself with whatever it was. And sometimes it made sense and sometimes it was the most paranoid and bizarre nonsense you kind of have have ever heard. Um, but you know, with with the stuff that made sense, you know, we just had a conversation like you would have a conversation with anyone with the stuff that that went off script, shall we say. Um, you know, a lot of that conversation was just about trying not to react of being like, "What are you talking about?" You know, that's that's crazy talk because guess what? Talking crazy talk to someone who's who's having mental health issues, not the best approach. Um, but a lot of it just centered around me going, you know, kind of calling him out or questioning him
Ben Madden: Mhm.
Kristjan Byfield: about these bizarre thoughts he would have. Um, and a lot of that it was often it was just asking him questions. It wasn't actually me talking. Uh, which I know will shock a lot of people listen to this podcast.
 
 

00:21:52

 
Kristjan Byfield: If there's one thing I'm highly skilled at, uh, it is is waffling on forever. Um, but no, fascinatingly, a a lot of that stem from Yeah, like I said, just he would say something like, I don't know, for example, oh, those people over there are watching us, you know, I think they're recording our conversation, you know, and it would just be like, why why do you think they're recording us? Why
Ben Madden: Mhm.
Kristjan Byfield: do you think they're observing our conversation? Let's do another lap. and you know um but yeah it was it that 3 months and and several years you know obviously that was that was a major thing. I think over the next kind of three or four years he got sectioned three times. Um it was amazing to see my sister really stand by a guy who she was long-term separated from and she was um kind of his his rock really.
Ben Madden: Who?
Kristjan Byfield: Uh, and it was nice to be able to to play a part in that. Um, not only for my sister and for him, but obviously for my niece as well.
 
 

00:22:57

 
Kristjan Byfield: But yeah, it's um it's a funny one. I think I think uh so many people have no concept of what that unraveling can be like. And I think every every incident is is again unique to itself. But um until you until you are confronted with it, you know, whether it's at work or at home um and again, you know, with you, you talked about it with with your mom as well. Um until you encounter it firsthand, um it's almost impossible to explain or or or fully understand, I think, because it's
Ben Madden: I think that is about that's you know that that is about so many things. Um, I've got an example I use all the time where I used to think I was reasonably empathetic and then um and then I had kids and basically I I realized just how tough it was to be a parent and go to work every day and um someone's got to stay at home with a kid when one of them's ill or someone's got to go pick them up for this or someone's got to take them somewhere.
 
 

00:24:16

 
Ben Madden: And I remember getting frustrated with members of the team that had family being pulled all from pillar to post years ago and then you know within months of having my my first of three like okay now I get it. I thought
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: I could get it before but I couldn't get it. And it's the same mental it's you know for so many things in life we think we understand. We want to understand it's not that we don't most of the time
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: but until you've lived it it is so difficult. Um, and I think in particular men's mental health is one of those funny ones that as we both already said until we had experience of it, let's say 15 years ago, both of us, we hadn't we we weren't we weren't into the subject matter. We weren't aware of the subject matter. We weren't necessarily um even interested in the subject matter. might
Kristjan Byfield: No,
Ben Madden: be fair
Kristjan Byfield: and
Ben Madden: to
 
 

00:25:08

 
Kristjan Byfield: I
Ben Madden: say.
Kristjan Byfield: think I I I know speaking for myself, my attitude around it would have been very flippant,
Ben Madden: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: you know.
Ben Madden: Yeah. and shame and I think that's going to be the same for men up and down the country because if they are in their head they're this resilient character and they don't have their own mental health issues they will you know naturally well everyone should be like me shouldn't they that sort of things falls in and they don't unless they've experienced it themselves and you know as you said with a I don't know friend a colleague family member then it is difficult and I think that's why it's a particularly difficult subject to get traction on
Kristjan Byfield: Well, you also
Ben Madden: that
Kristjan Byfield: try and rationalize
Ben Madden: and
Kristjan Byfield: it, right? Hey, they've got a great job, they've got a lovely family, they live in a nice house, they drive a nice car, they go on nice holidays, whatever it is, you kind of rationalize it away with doing like, you know, this is what the world sees.
 
 

00:25:56

 
Kristjan Byfield: And I think look if I know you've heard Chris's chat because he came and shared it with the boys club and and you know people are at Propex and I think he's shared the story at other events now. Um but Chris Webbs is is is a fascinating example of the fact that you know on the surface he was crushing it. Great job, great income, nice car, beautiful wife, beautiful house on that trajectory of what he always thought life and success looked like. Um, and there he was underneath it all, as sad as could possibly be, you know, plotting and planning how to exit.
Ben Madden: Well, you mutual friend of ours has just been through that. They um uh I won't betray a trust. They they did post about it in the boys club, but obviously this is going out to a wider group, but they've just a friend of theirs has just taken their own life. I say just sorry a month or two ago and um on the face of it there's it's almost impossible to understand got a family great career successful person and it just in this instance two and two is adding up to five you know from the outside looking and you can't logically comprehend why is this individual found themselves in this position because that's mental health it's not maths
 
 

00:27:17

 
Kristjan Byfield: It's
Ben Madden: and
Kristjan Byfield: not logical. And that's that's the problem, isn't it? And I think particularly as men typ and again we're we're working to to typical typicalities or or generalizations here, but as men we we we love logic. We love we love, like you said, we love 2 plus two equals four. You know, anything else is mad science or batshit voodoo. Um so like you said we look at a problem uh like mental health and you try to rationalize it away. Um and therein lies the the ongoing stumble and fumble that that we go on on this journey as we try to
Ben Madden: Mhm.
Kristjan Byfield: figure
Ben Madden: What?
Kristjan Byfield: out what the boys club looks like and and and what's going to really deliver that seismic change. And I think maybe again that is that is you and I being too logical about it, too driven. You
Ben Madden: Yeah,
Kristjan Byfield: know, we we
Ben Madden: maybe.
Kristjan Byfield: we you know, we love our work where you you know, you put in XY Z, you know, you put in a plan, you execute a plan, and you know, you might not get exactly the results you want, but you're going to be within a 10% margin either side.
 
 

00:28:33

 
Kristjan Byfield: And I think that's the tricky thing with with what we're trying to achieve with the boys club is
Ben Madden: I mean, I think it's worth saying that we've tried to do three different things. The things we do do in the boys club if if men in the property sector would like to join is that up until actually the last couple of months, we have a monthly meeting. When I say a meeting, it's an online chat. It's a get together and we hear from one of our members and they tell their story. And we know that's powerful because we've had feedback from people in the group that say how powerful it is to hear that story, to hear other people's experiences, to hear that you're not alone in what you're going through. You hear somebody else say it and then hey, if they're willing to talk about it, maybe I'm willing to talk about it to somebody else. So, we know that there is some power in that. Um, you're right. We're both um resultsoriented or goals or results driven people and we want to ramp that up.
 
 

00:29:24

 
Ben Madden: We want to do more. We want to help more people, which is, you know, it's natural. you know, I won't ever position that as a negative. You are one of the most genuine people I've ever met. And that is um there's there's nothing wrong with wanting to help more people. It's just a frustration trying to work out how to do that. So, one of the ideas we've got is a is a is a get together. So, maybe sort of in the autumn time, we're going to try and pull whoever in the group wants to get together. Maybe it's a you know, maybe it's a really long walk up a mountain, maybe it's camping, maybe it's an overnight somewhere else, something. Because what we do know men are good at is getting together and like, you know, getting together and having a chat in a more um what's the word I'm looking for? In a in a more traditional environment where
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah,
Ben Madden: in the outside
Kristjan Byfield: normal.
Ben Madden: world
 
 

00:30:07

 
Kristjan Byfield: It's
Ben Madden: comfortable
Kristjan Byfield: not a record, you know. I think that's something else you said. the impact it's had, you know, um like you, I've had some people go, "Oh my god, that really resonated with where I found myself a couple of years ago." Um but I think interestingly, I've also had some people go, and you and I talked about this when we were chatting or something earlier. Um, I've had people come up saying like there are traits to their brain or their personality um that um are quite topical right now. And part of them wants to kind of share their journey within that space, but part of them is also I'm I'm not ready yet.
Ben Madden: Mhm.
Kristjan Byfield: And and I think that's that's really interesting to hear as well. It's great to hear that some of the stories that people have shared have landed and have really resonated and helped. But I think it's also nice to hear that there is a bit of a bit of growth happening, a bit of but um but this one thing and like you said the the the meeting up in person, the kind of more informal backs slapping um having
 
 

00:31:18

 
Ben Madden: highing. You know, a bit of bit of maybe a bit of bit of fun.
Kristjan Byfield: but you know but but letting those moments of reality drop in there and I think the problem we're always going to have with the social media group, with the WhatsApp group, with anything like that is no matter how close it is, it is fundamentally still a record. You know, people can still go back there and go, "Oh, what did that person say a month ago? I'm pretty sure." Um whereas there is something absolutely lovely about like you said whether it's sitting in a pub, sitting in a campsite, hiking up a mountain, whatever it is, you can spend a day talking about everything, doing everything from taking the piss out of one another to sharing your deepest, darkest secrets. Um and then you can walk away at the end of that day and it it's something you've experienced, but there is no record. there is
Ben Madden: Mhm.
Kristjan Byfield: it doesn't get held up to your face. It doesn't get examined by your colleagues, your competitors and your friends and family.
 
 

00:32:20

 
Kristjan Byfield: Um
Ben Madden: I think it's really nice the the issue we've we've got at the moment is in the digital world we are one group of 200 people and some of us know each other and so you know we're friends away from that group but once we get a group of people somewhere new friendship groups are formed because you have one-on-one conversations because you find out you have things in common or I've seen you online and we've had a chat online and now I'm meeting you in the real world and you you know that is um one of the yeah I guess beautiful things about social media is it it is now starts the journey to making new friends which sounds so naff but um I think that will have a really powerful impact meeting up with people in real life you've only met digitally that you know you got something in common with but I would just much rather spend 15 minutes over a pint of laga talking to you sort of you know how how we used to do it 20 years ago so yeah I'm really excited for that.
 
 

00:33:17

 
Ben Madden: I think that would be cool. And if people want to join, just, you know, get involved
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, come and join the group. Come and share the group. Don't don't overthink it, overcommit. Just get in and, you know, comment on stuff, like stuff, share stuff if you feel like it. You know, I think from Ben and my perspective and and you know, the other guys involved, Spencer, Toby, Daniel, um obviously there is some sort of metric. We like we like to see some form of engagement in the group, but we're not there is no stipulation that you've that you've got to share some some epic life story or some some dark precipice that you're teetering on on at the moment. You know, just some sort of engagement or sharing. like I said whether it is a click on a like button or a you know or a little comment or a you know a reassurance or whatever it is and I think that just kind of lets us know that what we're doing in in some way helps and is some way generally heading in the right direction.
 
 

00:34:22

 
Kristjan Byfield: Um, and you know, if anyone equally wants to step up and has suggestions and wants to, you know, as as Ben said, I think, you know, we want to explore more and more ideas and attempts at at tackling this. And I think what what's really interesting, like Ben said, is, you know, we we kind of want to go back to to a large part of this is kind of going back to how things were 15, 20 years ago. And I think you know that that's why we've got a lot of mental health health issues in young men as well is because you know because of this digital universe that
Ben Madden: Isolated. Isolated.
Kristjan Byfield: we live in now
Ben Madden: Looking at the screen.
Kristjan Byfield: isolation
Ben Madden: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: and and not only that as we know that um that uh whatever the word is uh that um h what's the word I'm trying to say that that presented version of yourself that
Ben Madden: Oh, the fake. Yeah. You're living your best life. Everything
 
 

00:35:17

 
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: is
Kristjan Byfield: Isn't
Ben Madden: Everything
Kristjan Byfield: it
Ben Madden: is
Kristjan Byfield: fabulous? Look
Ben Madden: um
Kristjan Byfield: how beautiful
Ben Madden: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: I am. I'm loving life. I'm the best dad ever and my business is better than everybody is.
Ben Madden: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: Um Yeah. You know, and we we all know we all know no one gets it all right. Um so yeah I think you know and anything that pulls us away from that and look I think something really interesting you know again we've talked about the digital environment um of stuff and I think you know touching on mental health for young people you know I've had this conversation with mates I went to boarding school uh for 10 years as a lot of people know and as anyone who's been to boarding school knows you get up to a lot of silly really s*** at boarding school, particularly uh particularly 20, 30 years ago. Um in a very privileged boarding school full of very rich people, predominantly white, um there is a lot of tom foolery and roughousery and all sorts of shenanigans and and ridiculous crap we got on to that thank Christ there is no record of today.
 
 

00:36:33

 
Kristjan Byfield: Um, and you know, I think I think again that's that's a massive thing for young people is the ability to make mistakes, the ability to do silly
Ben Madden: Mhm.
Kristjan Byfield: s***, the ability to let something incredibly stupid fall out of your face because of that's how you were raised because that is the naive little bubble that you grew up in. Um, and then you emerge from that bubble into the real f****** world and learn a couple of lessons and then you suddenly like, oh, um, and and you know, like you said, I think we we're we're the last generation that got to make that was allowed to make mistakes and and there was no record of it.
Ben Madden: Well, look, we were talking about this a little bit earlier, weren't we? That um now I guess our generation, I think, are sometimes reluctant to have a conversation online because of repercussions. They're they're you not and I don't mean I guess should provide a bit of context there. I don't mean they don't want to be vulnerable online. In fact, actually I think there's a there's there's a there's a disingenuous level of vulnerability being displayed by some
 
 

00:37:45

 
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: uh with with marketing in the background. You know, let's be this character. Let's draw people in whatever we need to be. But what I mean is conversations that are slightly spiky. Maybe you're not so well informed and you're reluctant to open up dialogue on that because you may be attacked for for for the wrong opinion or or you know people are are comfortable to be offended at the smallest things nowadays. And so I can understand why some people are reluctant to have those conversations online. Um and I think you know it's a shame because I remember what would have been maybe 10 years ago there was quite a lot of dialogue and rhetoric around the blame culture that we built in this country
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: and um when something went wrong in business or in life who can we blame and now it's um I it sort of feels like um we've built up a bit of a judgment culture to me
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: that if somebody
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
 
 

00:38:44

 
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: has um a different opinion to me, I'm going to judge them on that rather than just accept that it's just an opinion. You know, why is that such an issue? So, I can see how young people definitely struggle with that now because you're absolutely right. Anything you say online, we've got a record of it. Now, you're never going to get away with it. We were allowed to make those mistakes in real life. But as as as you know, slightly older people in our current generation, I think we see it as well. And it's um that's one of the real shames actually. I said, you know, social media is a beautiful thing because it can build friendships. But the flip side is it can suppress great conversation.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um yeah, it's it's it's it's a weird and wonderful one. Um, and it's it's going to take a lot more people and a lot of different approaches and different efforts to to crack it than we will ever than we will ever master.
 
 

00:39:46

 
Kristjan Byfield: I think it's it it's definitely worth the effort and uh yeah, like I said, you know, there's already some signs of great stuff coming out and and I'm excited to see where we get with it and um yeah, I you know, I think we're genuinely going to help some people and if we if we help a handful of people and it's all been worthwhile, isn't it
Ben Madden: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: really?
Ben Madden: Yeah. And I agree. I I also think from an estate engine perspective, the world is so different to when you and I started and you were encouraged to hide keys and not work with other agents and and be a nightmare. And I would I I think back to like the sort of COVID era was a bit of a turning point where we all went online and we all decided that we're in this s*** together and we're going to work it out. And that I really genuinely believe that seven years ago I felt very differently to probably how I do now because I've got so many friends in the world of agency and so many um uh like I say I mean genuine friends I would go for a beer with not just colleagues if you like and that's fueled by social media and groups and getting to know each other and so there's so much positivity um because conscious the
 
 

00:41:00

 
Ben Madden: last thing I said sounded very like I'm very negative about social media. There's always going to be a negative side, but um I think we're a net positive actually for
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: uh for correct use and and it and its impact on people.
Kristjan Byfield: So, I think um moving on from that and just kind of stumbling into a couple of more bits before we wrap up this wonderful waffle that you and I have in here. Um, so, uh, I think it's quite fun for us to have a little chat again off the back of what we've been talking about. Um, being busy busy people with business uh, and and other activities that that center around that, but you know, having a wife and family to return home to and that that juggle. Um, I think this is, uh, and this I'm far from the first to comment on this, but I think every time, um, any woman in a senior position gets interviewed by anyone of note, there's there's almost always a question in there about mum guilt. Um, which I always find fascinating because, uh, it's something that that guys don't talk much about.
 
 

00:42:14

 
Kristjan Byfield: Um I mean I know you know interestingly you know we touched on the fact that we both consider ourselves pretty robust uh people mentally. Um I would actually say interestingly I probably struggle in that respect with my family life. Um
Ben Madden: Mhm.
Kristjan Byfield: not because I think in part because of what we touched on business is very measurable. A charity task is very measurable. You know, you sign up to do it and you set yourself a raised target and then you either hit the target and do the event or you don't, right? And like we said, you set yourself business goals and you hit them, don't hit them. But more often than not, you you know why you didn't hit them. The mysterious journey of parenthood and figuring out if and benchmarking whether you are getting that stuff right. you know, as you touched on, you had very strict parents growing up. I we didn't go into detail, but but the the depth of feeling in that in that very simple sentence you gave um I think told quite a lot.
 
 

00:43:25

 
Kristjan Byfield: Um and I imagine um there is a very conscious effort from you um to ensure that your daughters have a very different experience with their parents growing up. But I think again like many there will be attributes of your upbringing that you also do appreciate because it's turned you into the person that you are. Um and that's not all bad. So, you know,
Ben Madden: Not all. Not all. Yeah, we're 98% there, but not
Kristjan Byfield: so
Ben Madden: all. Um
Kristjan Byfield: yeah, I think I think it's just nice, you know, you don't you don't often hear agents talk about the the dadding bit. And um you know, I mean, I'm really lucky. I I live close to work, so I love the fact uh I say I love the fact I almost always love the fact I do the school run with the kids in the morning. The caveat I give to that is I definitely didn't like it yesterday morning when my daughter literally screamed at me for two hours about the fact she didn't want to go to school and how she didn't love me.
 
 

00:44:30

 
Kristjan Byfield: Um I mean that that was an event. Felt like I had minor PTSD when I got to work yesterday. Um but I I I I'm really you know I hold on to that little moment quite um quite hard. My wife about six months ago was like, "Oh, you know, why don't you go into work earlier, finish a bit earlier?" Um, which meant giving up the school run and and my immediate response was that absolutely not. You know, that that morning, that time in the morning, getting ready, getting up, dressed, breakfast, and that walk to school. I love that, you know. I I wouldn't I wouldn't give that up for uh for tuppence. Um, how do you find the juggle?
Ben Madden: Um, I think for me parenting is the is the most conflicting thing I've ever had to uh to to handle to do to deal with. Um, so I guess touch on a few things. Yeah. my upbringing very traditional, old school and I try and take what I think are the the best bits, the highlights, the good bits from that.
 
 

00:45:45

 
Ben Madden: You know, I want the girls to uh so anyone listen, I've got three daughters. They are three, five, and nine. And I I think I probably make 99.9% of my decisions with them in mind. Um, I want them to hear the word no, which I know sounds really negative, but
Kristjan Byfield: No, no, no. Very very interesting discussion in our household right now.
Ben Madden: okay. Yeah. So, it comes up in ours a bit. So, my wife had quite a tough upbringing in that um when she was a young girl, her her dad had an affair, was an alcoholic, left her mom, and that led to her um you know, it it was quite tough. not, you know, not a lot of money around, you know, tough choices around certain things. And so I can see it that my wife wants to give the girls what she didn't have.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: And so and and of course I get it. It's the same as you and grandparents always they just want to spoil their kids because it it's wonderful and it's giving them what they didn't have.
 
 

00:46:45

 
Kristjan Byfield: Grandparent
Ben Madden: And
Kristjan Byfield: rule, right? As a grandparent, you get that treat because you're the grandparent. Unfortunately, as
Ben Madden: yeah,
Kristjan Byfield: the parent, you don't have that luxury. I don't
Ben Madden: you
Kristjan Byfield: think
Ben Madden: you don't and my major concern is I think um and I don't know whether this is really the case or I've picked it up from things I've read and I've heard about the the sort of the I guess the next generation of workforce coming in is
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: very feels very entitled. They they're not used to um hearing the word no. They're not used to push back. They expect everything just to be handed on a platter. Now,
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: I don't know if that's exactly true or there's exaggerations there. But what's most important to me is I set the girls up for the real world. And they're 3, five, and nine. And people are thinking maybe right now, blind, that's a bit excessive.
 
 

00:47:30

 
Kristjan Byfield: But
Ben Madden: Well,
Kristjan Byfield: if
Ben Madden: actually,
Kristjan Byfield: you don't think
Ben Madden: this is
Kristjan Byfield: about
Ben Madden: a
Kristjan Byfield: it
Ben Madden: formative
Kristjan Byfield: now,
Ben Madden: year.
Kristjan Byfield: you can't you can't plan that when they're 16 because the horse has bolted. I mean, there's a lot of research that says by five, six, seven years
Ben Madden: Uhhuh.
Kristjan Byfield: old, psychologically that framework is kind of set
Ben Madden: Well,
Kristjan Byfield: on
Ben Madden: have you heard the saying, "Show me a seven-y old, I'll show you the adult."
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: So, by the age of seven, they're there. So, what you've done, and so I really I want to say no. I don't want to say no to everything, but
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: I want to say no in the right circumstances. I want them to um I want them to use please and thank you. I think that's really, really important. I
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: want them to be respectful of people. I want them.
 
 

00:48:07

 
Ben Madden: Um, so now my nine-year-old has reached that age where she says things like, "What you know, daddy, what should I be when I'm older?" And I said, "Honey, honestly, happy, safe, fulfilled. That's
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: it.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: I could, you know, if you could, as long as as a parent, I need to prepare for the world. You need to be safe. So, I need you to not be naive. I need you to be aware of the world around you and things that can go wrong." Um, I want you to be happy. Darren Brown's book on Harry I'm on happy really interesting book too long he filled that out with too much blah blah blah blah blah but that got me really thinking about happiness and how important it is and I hadn't given it enough priority in my own life and then I think fulfillment is actually what drives happiness personally
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah. Yeah.
Ben Madden: um and so that that's all I want for them but in order for them to get there I don't mind there's a little bit of struggle I don't mind there's a
 
 

00:48:58

 
Kristjan Byfield: There's
Ben Madden: little bit
Kristjan Byfield: got
Ben Madden: of
Kristjan Byfield: to
Ben Madden: resilience
Kristjan Byfield: be a little bit of struggle. I think, you know, you touched on it earlier. However you want to phrase it or package it, I think the way the way I talk about it in my head is about teaching my kids mental resilience. Like you
Ben Madden: Mhm.
Kristjan Byfield: said,
Ben Madden: Exactly. Yeah. Lovely.
Kristjan Byfield: getting the word no. Sometimes
Ben Madden: Mhm.
Kristjan Byfield: even when that's not fair.
Ben Madden: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: Some
Ben Madden: That's
Kristjan Byfield: you might
Ben Madden: life
Kristjan Byfield: have done everything
Ben Madden: sometimes.
Kristjan Byfield: that
Ben Madden: That's
Kristjan Byfield: justifies
Ben Madden: life.
Kristjan Byfield: that you should get XY Z, but tough s***. This week you don't.
Ben Madden: That's life,
Kristjan Byfield: Last week
Ben Madden: isn't it?
Kristjan Byfield: that got you a bag of sweets or it got you us buying your favorite movie on on Amazon or wherever it was for you to watch.
 
 

00:49:34

 
Kristjan Byfield: Uh this week, no. Um and it's it's funny. It's those it's those little old adages of um you know, I talk there's there's a there's a couple of things that spring to mind that I focus on specifically with my daughter. So my kids very similar age to yours. My boy's three, my daughter's seven. um very different creatures. Um but um but yeah, you know, you kind of phrase a couple of things I talk about uh with my daughter at length. Um and I talk about the thing that um not everything's fair.
Ben Madden: Mhm.
Kristjan Byfield: You can't. And this comes back to kind of something we were touching on earlier that trying to quantify
Ben Madden: For
Kristjan Byfield: and
Ben Madden: him.
Kristjan Byfield: measure and benchmark everything and go, "Oh, yeah, but you know, XY Z happened or I did that, so I I I must get the prize."
Ben Madden: Well, that's that's the kids line, isn't it? It's not fair. And of course, it's not. You couldn't
 
 

00:50:29

 
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: have hit it. You couldn't have said it better. Life
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: is not fair. Welcome.
Kristjan Byfield: And what are you gonna do about that? Because it's not going to change the outcome. It's not going to
Ben Madden: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: change anything. And then something else I talked about and and um is is that balance of uh being empathetic and generous but also balancing that with your own self-importance, self- value and and and I think the most the simplest way I've focused on that with uh with the kids is about toys,
Ben Madden: Mhm.
Kristjan Byfield: Right. So, uh, you know, and it's interesting now having Arlo, um, you know, it was more complex with Elvie when she was younger because we talked about it in a kind of third party thing of
Ben Madden: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: I was at nursery this day and I was playing with this kid and they came up and just snatched this toy off me or, you know, whatever or, you know, asked asked if they could play with it and I gave it to them, but I didn't really want to give it to them because I was playing, you know, and we've we've had that conversation and it's, you know, it's that interesting nuance of of saying to LD,
 
 

00:51:39

 
Kristjan Byfield: look, you can be you you can have or be using or playing with something whatever it is and someone might come up uh and ask if they can borrow it, use it, have it, whatever. Um and I said it's down to you to decide um when it feels right to comply and go, "Yeah, of course you of course you can have a go. Of course, you go play with it." Uh, and when you turn and you know when you're when you turn around and go actually um, no, not right now. Um, and whether that's because you're playing with it or using at that time or whether it's just something that's precious to you and you just don't really want to share that thing with it. um you know and I think I think for me that's that's just quite a quite a fun nuance thing for her to play around with because she always whenever we have the conversations about it you know she will bring it up when there's been some particular circumstance and she'll be like oh but what would you have done daddy and it's like it doesn't it doesn't matter what I would have done because
 
 

00:52:43

 
Ben Madden: Mhm.
Kristjan Byfield: there's also no right or wrong there's
Ben Madden: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: also
Ben Madden: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: there is no you know whether you complied or denied it doesn't matter As long as you're content, as long as you're happy with why you did that, you know, you can't control that
Ben Madden: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: person
Ben Madden: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: outcome. But
Ben Madden: That it's interesting. So what I've discovered is that our three are wildly protective of anything that the other one wants. Not because they're playing with it, because they want it. You know, Annabelle will be Annabelle who's five, will be playing with a particular toy. Sorry, not playing with a toy. The toy will be three yards away from her
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: and her sister will come over to pick that toy up and jump on it. I'm playing with
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: that.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: And that that's so that's that's one of the current battles we're dealing with, which sort of folds into what you're dealing with.
 
 

00:53:38

 
Ben Madden: um you're phrasing it and and actually turning into a proper conversation where I'm actually my route is more um you should stop being assholes to each other. That's all I want.
Kristjan Byfield: No
Ben Madden: That's
Kristjan Byfield: worries.
Ben Madden: just what I want.
Kristjan Byfield: Sometimes
Ben Madden: You know,
Kristjan Byfield: is absolutely that.
Ben Madden: like you're meant to be best friends.
Kristjan Byfield: I
Ben Madden: Chill
Kristjan Byfield: know.
Ben Madden: out.
Kristjan Byfield: So
Ben Madden: You're not even using a
Kristjan Byfield: that
Ben Madden: toy.
Kristjan Byfield: Elvie grabbed like a rubber dinosaur hand puppet thing last night at Arlo's which I literally I cannot remember the last time he touched it. And literally the second she put it on her hand, he was all over her.
Ben Madden: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: That's fine. I want it.
Ben Madden: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: Like,
Ben Madden: Bruce. Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: dude, you literally haven't even looked at that thing. Like I'm pretty sure I saw you kick it out the way like earlier this evening when you were looking for something like
 
 

00:54:26

 
Ben Madden: Yeah. If only. But mate, you also touched on something right at the start of this 13 minutes ago is the dad guilt that doesn't get a lot of air time.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: And I think um like for so today I got a letter today from um Evelyn, my oldest girl school and she's got her sports day on the 4th of July and she's got a swimming gala on the sorry on the 4th of July and the 11th of July swimming gala one week after the other and I can't attend either.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: I've got beer on the 4th of July and kafuffle on the 11th.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: And what are the chances? Because if it was on the 5th or the 12th I'm a both.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: and and I I I had a real like a moment of guilt.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: I mean, I still feel guilty on the day because I tried to go to as many events as possible. Um the world has changed a lot.
 
 

00:55:11

 
Ben Madden: My dad, he might have seen me play football at the weekend when we were kids, but never made it to a school event. Like nothing. Obviously, you were born in school, so again, different experience.
Kristjan Byfield: live on the other side of the planet for my parents.
Ben Madden: Yeah. So,
Kristjan Byfield: Hey.
Ben Madden: so the the world it is so different. And so 40 years ago maybe mom guilt was a thing but now I'm afraid it has to be rebranded as parent guilt that
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Ben Madden: it just has. Um and yeah it's a real thing and it's a real struggle and it's very interesting. I don't know if you spotted that. I smiled and nodded as you said mentally resilient but when it comes to the mess that is living a life running a business and being present for your family that's the tough that's the strain that's the stretch. And I can resonate with that more than I can articulate.
Kristjan Byfield: And I think a lot of guys can I mean I think it was a few weeks ago in the boys club I put a post because I'd been having a a really tough time at home.
 
 

00:56:08

 
Kristjan Byfield: The kids were acting up quite a bit. Haley and I weren't necessarily agreeing on how to tackle that. And I felt like and and I think as often guys do at home, I felt like, you know, apart from the paying the bills, I'm not sure I feel like I'm contributing to
Ben Madden: I'm an outsider at the moment.
Kristjan Byfield: this at the moment.
Ben Madden: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: I feel like a a complication and a frustration
Ben Madden: Mhm.
Kristjan Byfield: rather than part of the solution.
Ben Madden: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: And I think it was really interesting. I I I I shared that within the the boys club. Um and it was really interesting to see a how many people commented on it, but also how many dads in the group reached out. I mean, I totally get it. If you want to chat, go through that, go through that feeling a lot. And I think that's why I wanted us to touch on it because you and I, we talk a lot about work. We talk a little bit about our families, but we're very quite um that family time is very important to us when it happens.
 
 

00:57:13

 
Kristjan Byfield: And a lot of what we're doing is about creating, you know, the safety and infrastructure and support um for those people that we really want. Have you frozen? I think I might have lost you for a second, Benji. I think we've frozen you, mate. Oh, we were on such a good little flow there. Oh, he's gone. He's going to come back. I think I've broken him talking about parenthood. I think it's all got a bit too much. Um, see, this is what happens when you start talking about dad guilt and parent guilt. It fries the internet and it goes into meltdown. But um yeah, we'll uh we'll hopefully get him back. Here he comes. Here he comes. Technology and he's back. I said, you see what happens about dad guilt? The whole internet freezes. Goes, "Hold on. This wasn't on the agenda. This
Ben Madden: That
Kristjan Byfield: isn't
Ben Madden: was
Kristjan Byfield: what we talk
 
 

00:58:23

 
Ben Madden: that
Kristjan Byfield: about.
Ben Madden: that was that was my daughter was calling me to say I'm late or so probably there. Just cut off the
Kristjan Byfield: their ears were burning. Daddy's talking about us. Um, yeah. But anyway, I think look, it's it's obviously you bounced out just now, but I think it's it I wanted us to talk about this because um I think in many ways I hate the fact that in almost every female interview I've seen on a podcast, it comes up as a question. Uh, and I can't think if I've ever heard it come up in a male interview. Um, so I just felt like that was something that that warranted talking about as you and I
Ben Madden: Yeah, agree
Kristjan Byfield: and
Ben Madden: completely.
Kristjan Byfield: live our lives and um and and I think it slotted in with a lot of what we've what we've already talked about today. Um, so but I think um we've done we've done a really nice little waffle around there. you lucky people out there are gonna have the delight of us two waffling on um in the company of Mr. Matt Giggs uh not too soon.
 
 

00:59:27

 
Kristjan Byfield: I've probably blown a big secret there. Um but um that will be centered around uh a lot more property related. Um, but really would love to hear, you know, as as we drop this out, we, you know, I think we've we talked about some very different topics to what typically gets covered in anything property related. Um, and it would be lovely to see people engage in whatever form of content we get from here, uh, with Ben or me, whether that's directly, publicly, privately. Join the boys group. Tell your mates about it. Um, you know, share your wos about dad guilt. Share what that what that looks like for you. I think the more we talk about this stuff and share it, the more we realize we're all kicking the same funny little voices around in our head. and we're still we're all having this very similar questions and doubts about who we are and what we do and the value we contribute to to those around us be it at work or at home. So, um buddy, all that is left to say is thank you so much for your time today.
 
 

01:00:41

 
Kristjan Byfield: Um, please let big toes give you a little bit of a pounding, but you know, let
Ben Madden: Yeah,
Kristjan Byfield: let
Ben Madden: I was going to
Kristjan Byfield: let's
Ben Madden: say I make
Kristjan Byfield: still
Ben Madden: no promises.
Kristjan Byfield: have an intelligible conversation with Matt in a week's time.
Ben Madden: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, cross your fingers on that one. Um, I I would like to say I'm not going to let Big Tobes do that to me, but I don't think I'm going to have much of a
Kristjan Byfield: I
Ben Madden: op option
Kristjan Byfield: I
Ben Madden: there.
Kristjan Byfield: don't think Big T is going to give you any choice in that matter, mate. I think uh float
Ben Madden: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: like a butterfly. Uh try not to get stung like a giant bloody bee. Um
Ben Madden: Yeah. I feel like I'm getting stung. Yeah. Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: but mate, good on you. Good on you for putting yourself in the ring. Um as we said within the various forms of content whether this drops before after Ben's fight we will be sharing uh the link for uh the fund raise Ben is doing for center point please whether it's a pound5 pound or more every little bit helps and again boys club join it comment it share it tell your mates about it the more people we have in there the more people we can hopefully help buddy thanks again for your time I will see you soon luck
Ben Madden: Thanks, mate. Thank you. Really love talking to you. Cheers. Cool. Wow. We are just like just gigs has got no chance. That's all I'm saying. Um just no chance, mate.
 
 

Transcription ended after 01:02:25

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