The Ball, The Buzz & The Business: What We Really Get from Industry Events

In this special episode of The Viking Chats, Kristjan Byfield sits down with fellow Base Property Specialists & The Depositary co-founder and industry icon An Deckers (aka Big Red) for a reflective and revealing look at what actually matters in the property industry—and why showing up still makes all the difference.

Fresh from the Kerfuffle Conference and the Agents Giving Ball, Kristjan and An unpack what attending industry events really offers, beyond the awards, the Prosecco and the usual photos. Spoiler: it’s not about the canapés.

This episode is a candid conversation between two co-founders, partners and long-time friends, who’ve seen their fair share of industry highs, lows and everything in between.

They get into:

• 💥 The power of presence in an increasingly digital industry
• 🎤 What makes a great industry event actually worth attending
• 🤝 How community and connection still shape the future of lettings
• 🌟 Why celebrating each other matters just as much as learning
• 😤 The events that have missed the mark and what needs to change
• 💡 How suppliers and agents can work better together, not at odds
• ❤️ A raw and honest conversation about mental health, burnout, and running a business while being human

An speaks openly about how she’s been navigating the relentless pace of running an agency, being a tech founder, managing a team—and the toll that takes. Kristjan opens up about his own pressures, and they both share how the right events can act as oxygen when the day-to-day gets overwhelming.

This is the kind of episode that goes beyond policy, tech and trend forecasts. It’s two people deeply embedded in the sector, asking real questions like:

• Are we losing the humanity in our industry?
• Who’s actually looking out for the agents?
• How can we build an industry that’s sustainable—not just profitable?

For anyone who’s ever felt like the property world is too full of noise, ego or endless product pitches—this one’s for you.

It’s also for:

• Letting agents and branch managers who need to reconnect with their why
• Suppliers wondering how to build real relationships with agents
• Founders and directors juggling people, performance and purpose
• Anyone who believes there’s still room for kindness, fun and rebellion in property

Whether you’ve been to 100 awards dinners or have always avoided the networking room, Kristjan and An will have you laughing, reflecting, and maybe even rebooking that next industry get-together.

Because in a sector fuelled by data, tech and bottom lines—human connection still wins.

Transcript

Hello everybody and welcome to the latest episode of the Viking Chats and I'm delighted to once again be joined with Miss Annika Decker's my partner in crime. The lady who brings sense and sensibility to everything we do. The baseball, the baseball. Yeah so we're back. We're back. And two we wanted to have a chat about a couple of things. We had a busy industry social calendar last week. We had a fantastic social calendar actually for what? We had a credit for what? So we had on the Thursday we had the inaugural kerfuffle con from the shy and diminishing and softly spoken Mr Simon Whale. Aided by his collaborators and enablers, I think we should call them Sarah Blair and David Mintz. And then on the Friday we blasted down to delightful dawking. So the Denby's wine estate. So the Denby's wine estate where we attended the annual agent skipping ball and everything that ensued. So to have a little bit of a chat about really that part of what I wanted to talk about is why we get involved with these things and how we feel that's kind of quite an important part of our industry and what we do. So without further ado, so kerfuffle con now and sadly can't really talk much about the day because didn't make it along. But to be fair, that's because she was stuck in our base office doing deals. I did try so hard. But that day was just one of those days where the deals came out. We cannot complain about that. No. So I'm happy. So as much as we had two days of industry dalliances, business still got done. So we had a very good Thursday in the office. So I'll talk about the day. So I was there primarily wearing my cap as the depository with Carla. We were one of the sponsors of the event as the depository. We were a minor sponsor for the event. But we were really, really happy and delighted to support Simon and the team and the whole kerfuffle team with their endeavor to deliver another conference into the industry calendar. Thankfully one that doesn't fall between October and December. So that was a great one. Nice to have something out of season. Nice to have a summery conference. So that was really nice. It was a bit hot. He was toasty. This is very tasty. This man, this coloring, this DNA doesn't do heat well. But I was bloody relieved that the, so the event took place at Wembley Stadium. Now if you, any of you attended the original property mark one, that was done at like Wembley Arena. This was the bona fide football Wembley Stadium. And I have to say from a kind of impression point of view. Amazing. So in the main part of the building, the event was spread out over primarily over I think three or four floors. You have like registration with the strictest security ever I've seen in my life. Obviously National Symbol Stadium. So any event going on there, they are like hawks. So literally every lady or anyone, but primarily ladies going in and out with bags. And to be searched every time you came back into the building. So going for a cheeky cigarette was twice as long as expected. But yeah, no security was really strict. But that said it's still ran really smoothly. Then we had kind of the second floor, the Bobby Moore suite, which was where all of the sponsors and trade stands were. And that was, that was an amazing space. Obviously the event was headed up by the lead sponsors, Reap It and Pay Props. So congrats to them. Goes to show there is still some friendship still remaining between Mr. Whale and the Reap It clams. And yeah, it was great to see them back here. But yeah, it was a very early start. I think we had to have our stand set up ready for 8am. Because did you make it? Just. Just. I was looking at your updates thinking, oh, I wonder if he's going to get this. And then this is Wembley and North Circle, where you've got a transverse. Yeah, it was tight. He definitely didn't help the night before. Arlo decided he was going to have a danger nap at about 6.30 in the evening. Oh, no. Lethal. Lethal. Yeah. So basically started his day again at about 7.30 in the evening. So I think, I think he fell asleep at 5 to 2. My alarm was set for 5.30. So it was an interesting start to the day. But no, got over there. Not quite as timely as I had planned originally, but got over there. Unusually for conferences, we usually start at about 9ish. Kavuffle and Wale made the decision to have a VIP start at 8 o'clock with a special talk with Josh Figen and a little pre-talk of the supplier area. So yeah, that kind of went against my feelings. I have to say, I often, with these conferences, moan and rant about why they have to start so early. I mean, let's not forget we started at 10am Monday to Friday. We learned nothin' early agency. Why am I thinking is the fact that most of these conferences are in London, right? So we don't have to come far. No. But agents come from across the whole country. And when you've got a conference starting at 8 or even 9 o'clock in the morning. You either have to come the night before or you're up from before on. So you're adding a big expense on top of that bill ticket. But look, I get it. It's also that conflict of the conferences are desperately trying to deliver the most value they can. And the perception is the value is given in the amount of time and the amount of talks they can deliver. And so that means an early start and a late finish. But yeah, it was a really fun day. Spline Stand was great. There was some really great things. They ran a scavenger hunt competition where agents could go around and scan QR codes on each of the stands. I think they're announcing those in the next week or so. And there's some amazing prizes in there. So that was a really clever way to get agents engaging with all the stands at the event. So that was a really nice touch. And then obviously they had their different tiers of sponsors. Obviously, because we were there for a stand, I didn't get to catch as many talks as I would have liked to. Also they kept the stands open throughout. Not like women in a state agency where they basically you had a time at the stand and then everybody went into the theatre and followed the chats and then you came back. So you actually had to stay in your stand. So women in a state agency is quite unique in that respect. Because they do that single remote tutorial and it's highly engaging content, they run, like you said, quite as simple like these are your times. Otherwise, everyone is in there. The nice thing is, I think, with women's age that includes everyone. Suppliers and guests, everyone in the auditorium listening to the talks, hearing the stories, hearing the journeys, hearing the adventures. I think, could fuffle forward a more traditional format for suppliers in that respect, in that you try and get away for talks that you find interesting, but people are moving around. So there were talks, I think they were running at least two, if not three different rooms at certain times with different talks. So there were sometimes talks going on simultaneously or overlapping. And so you'd have people kind of spilling between them and they'd finish at different times. So you had this constant kind of gentle buzz of people kind of floating around, moving between a talk. Plus you wouldn't break away if you're talking to a client or a prospective client. You're not going to go like, "I don't want to go and see the chat." No, I mean, I actually did have, so Quirk and what Kin did. A great panel. And we had agreed, it's not a secret anymore. So we thought, well, we had agreed beforehand that we were going to do, because it was all about fundamentally they were talking about how to drive up instructions and fees. And so it was talking about raining money. So we'd all agreed that there was going to be this fun thing of throwing and kind of shooting money everywhere apart of their entrance. And this was all agreed in top secret and we were recruited and we were prepared and we got messages. I'd say you were part of it. Half an hour before they even checked in, still good to go. Yes. Yes. I'll be there. And then five minutes before I was going to be there, I started a really deep conversation with the clients. And I didn't turn up for the money thing. So, but from what I saw, it looked bad for the videos. Quirk and what Kin ended up being their own money fountains. They knew, but I did see some replobates like Chris Buckler get involved with that part of the shenanigans. But no, so things I heard, great things about Simon Gates, sorry. I'm changing people's names now. Simon Gates, as always, very engaging, lots of value. Josh Fegan, obviously the lead speaker of the day. I was gutted I missed that. I have to say, because I had said to Carla, I definitely want to catch that chat. He's the first time I saw Josh speak was, God, probably 15 years ago. Wow. And it was an event put on by Rightmove. Thank you, completely hate you guys. It was an event put on by Rightmove for their clients. And it was free to attend. And I remember thinking like how refreshing that, A, that kind of Australian energy. And he is a bit of a pocket rocket. Josh, that he's not big in stature, but down does that guy bring the energy. And one of the things he said is always stuck with me. I remember he was saying one of the ways that way back then, they absolutely dominated the market and stole market share was they introduced a thing back then that basically when someone would call up and for evaluation conversation and they'd have evaluation chat and they'd chat away, they'd take some details, they'd given some advice. But before they ended the call, they'd find out exactly where the person was right there. Like, oh, are you at work right now? Where's your work? And they'd go, oh, actually, you know, I'm at AT&T on Sydney Drive, whatever it was. The second they'd hang up the phone, they would order a bunch of flowers to be delivered instantly to that person within half an hour saying, thank you so much for your time on the phone. It was such a privilege. It was such a joy. You know, we hope we'll hear from you again and work with you. But you know, if not, and that really simple thing, I mean, you know, that would not have been cheap, but they get good fees and a's. I'm pretty sure I'm right in saying typical fees over there are more like three or four percent for a sales agent. So three or four times what your typical agent over here gets. And they also have upfront marketing fees as well over there. So that's another interesting thing. But yeah, very ballsy, no one else doing it, but what a way to make an instant impression of people. And that has always stuck with me. I'm sure there are other far more relatable and implementable things that he talked about. But the 15 years, every time I hear his name, every time I see his photo on something, his photo on a poster or a flyer or whatever about an industry event, it always brings me back to that story. And I think that's really exciting. So yeah, I had people rave about the Josh Vegan thing, particularly, I think it was really nice to hear the people who'd purchased or been gifted VIP tickets in the morning and have made that extra effort. I heard some amazing things about that almost like a one to one. They said that morning session because it was a really small group. They got really dynamic content and they got to ask some really direct questions. So definitely something to think about for next year's kerfuffle card, I'm kind of assuming there will be one. I imagine there will be. So yeah, just bear that in mind. It is an early start, but a lot of people raved about the value of that very special early morning session. I heard some nice things about Toby Martin's content. Got a Toby. If you don't know Toby Martin, what rock have you been under? Well, in short, video, social, AI helps you wrap your head around it from a guy who's worked in let-ings for, I think, over 10 years and gets it and knows it and is now flipped on its head. And then I unsurprisingly, when I listen to the AI chat. Of course. Hold it one day. Of course. Now, I think there's a really interesting debate happening around AI within industry events of the moment in terms of there were lots of people and I really liked the chat. There was some really interesting points made. SJ from Greenhouse did not meant her words about what she thinks real AI is. And she was very clear about the fact that quality AI actually does the work. It doesn't create tasks. It doesn't go, oh, by the way, you now need to do this and set a reminder on alert. It actually is built to go, oh, now this has happened. I can do this, this, this and this before handing it back to the agent. And it was really nice to hear someone talk very specifically about what their perception was. So, the general consensus within AI, some people call it a genetic AI is that we're heading into this phase where I will do stuff. And then you know, you had other comments from the like of Ben Madden talking about around content. You had the guys from Bright Logic on the panel. And yeah, so there were some interesting points made. I think the interesting thing, I think for kerfuffle to think about next year is I think how you take that conversation on. Because I think at the moment there's still a lot of conversations. And whilst there were some valid points made in that, there was a lot of conversation around attitudes around AI. No one walked out of that room going, aha, right. I'm going to plug this product in or I'm going to go away and do XYZ to figure out what product I need. And I think that is definitely something we're starting to see more and more with agents is they're more and more open to the use of AI, but feel utterly overwhelmed by it. I mean, as much as agents thought they were overwhelmed being pitched 200 proctech products like two, three years ago, you're now being presented with about 1000 AI products with new ones coming out every day. So I would definitely say, I think in terms of that, maybe some more actionable stuff. I'd love to see some more kind of physical examples of things. I mean, I've seen some AI platforms and demos do stuff that just, I mean, the techie nerd didn't mean just kind of to giggle. But I think there's stuff that when you put it in front of agent, actually show it what it can do rather than keep talking about it. I mean, you know, putting you on the spot, like obviously you're aware of the beast that is AI. You know, we're using bits of it in the business. We've obviously just released our first AI tool in Depository. But wearing your base agency owner kind of operations director kind of cap, what's your kind of thinking on AI at the moment? So for me, I come from a complete different angle. So it's not necessarily about streamlining or changing tasks that took a long time into seconds. That automatically will happen if you're using the right prompt. For me, it's a perfect tool of taking the emotion out of certain interactions. So for example, you know, as we all do in our industry, there's always times that we have to send an email that's a bit stronger worded. As a non-speaker of English, sometimes I can come across quite abrupt, even if I don't mean to, but just the way that my writing style would be. And I found that an amazing tool for me to kind of say, this is what I want to say, presented in such a way that it is stern, but yet not confrontational. And at the same time, it then presents me with a solution. I can still reword it. It's the re-promptant and tricky. Exactly. Make it sound a bit more like me because sometimes it comes up and I'm like, yeah, yeah, people would seriously know that I did not write this content. But then, you know, for my own stress levels and my cortisol levels, big difference. Yeah, you're not getting drawn into the emotion of the interaction. No. And sometimes the outcome's better. Yeah, and it's really interesting as well that you say that, you know, you referenced the fact English is your second language or even third of all the language. But I think... That instantly made me thought of the fact over the years times where we have had emails from tenants or landlords, residents or owners, where English isn't their first language. And they've written an email probably actually with the best intent. But because of their framing English language, it comes across a bit salty and you're like, hold on a minute, they're getting a bit, that's a bit... Look, and as we always say, every email is written in the frame of mind. Oh. I feel like if you're already agitated and you get an email and you're already kind of ready to go and to battle, even if that wasn't meant to be, it's gonna rile you up. And again, I also know when I write an email, we've got to make sure that, you know, it's not about heightening emotions here. It's about coming together, finding a solution. And for me, AI does that. And I'm sure that it does. A ton of other things as well that we will learn to use in the business on a daily basis and we see it, you know, every week. There's something else we're starting to use as a solution. Exactly. And this is the thing. You're gonna get suppliers like we've done with the Depository. You're gonna get suppliers figure this stuff out and how to embed it, hopefully, effectively to deliver the greatest value for their users. But I think people should be cautious not to rely on the industry, don't wait. I mean, interesting talking about emails. So another thing they do at Kvuffle, they did their top 30 innovations. So these are products that suppliers, or that are out in the marketplace that people have done. And one thing that Walee put in that list, and it was actually really refreshing to see was a product called Fixer AI, which you've probably seen ads for in your social media. They seem to be spending a bajillion dollars on social media advertising at the moment. But fyxer.ai. And it is an email automation or streamlining platform. So basically what it does, you sign up when you get an email, it drafts, it instantly drafts one or several replies. And then you then go through and go, oh yeah, I like that one. You can still tweak it. You can still edit it. But yeah, I like that one, send. And literally, Walee was saying he'd implemented it and he was literally overnight. It reduced the amount of work on his emails by over 50%. And it's not an expensive product. So it was just interesting that we kind of drifted onto the email subject there. And I think it was nice to see open market products talked about as well. I think that's something as an industry we sometimes struggle to include in our kind of mix when we're talking about stuff. So yeah, so we had the chat. So we had the AI chat. I think probably a couple of comments saying that one thing I found is with a lot of these conferences, a lot of the agents that go tend to be, and not categorically, but tend to be at the upper part of the market in terms of performance. I'm not necessarily talking about fees, but we're talking fundamentally these are agents who proactively go out to learn new things, whether that's ways to do stuff, whether that's technology, suppliers, partners, CRMs, whatever it is. One couple of comments I did have from people on the day was that the content overall was of a great standard, but they would have loved to have had a couple of talks where it was a bit more advanced. And it was talking, it wasn't talking about the basics of right guys, this is a central kit you need for a video. And this is how you record your first video. Be nice to kind of have a master class for like advanced filmmaking. So what's advanced film kit? What are advanced tools you can use? What are advanced approaches to scheduling and delivering your content? So, but yeah, no, it was a really good day. And we got through that and then Anne arrived for the best part. That's a sweaty mess from the metropolitan line. I had to walk around Wembley as well. I couldn't find the entrance, I think, so big. I was on the wrong level. The amount of people on that day who turned up and were like, "Where's Wembley?" I was like, "Oh, no, no, I got to Wembley." "Oh, no, you did the big stairs, didn't you?" I was like, "I'm walking the stairs." And then I got on to the wrong level and then I just kept walking and I could not see an entrance open. So, it was one thing. I think for a match day, you went up the entrance that you would be, which is the big, massive forced staircase. And it does indeed kind of be like, "Come on, come on, friends!" No, the conference was kind of under that staircase on the ground floor, which makes it sound like it was that little door. There was no signage. No banners, no stuff in the image. Nothing. It was, yeah. I mean, bless Sarah and David to have pulled that off. Yeah, in two months. It's such little time. In two months. Let's not forget people, most conferences are booked at least a year in advance and obviously not all the planning is in place, but that process starts lining up. They did a smashing job to stun it. Yeah, and to get that many people there, I mean, I don't know. I would guesstimate there was about 500 people there in total on the day, including agents and suppliers. I'd say it was kind of somewhere in that ballpark. I think during the day, there must have been more people than the evening. Hard to tell in that space as well, though. There's people you've talked about that I didn't see in the evening. Oh, no, there were definitely people who came just for the day. There were some people who literally came for the morning, kind of did it up to lunch time with them and got stuff to do or it's, yeah. And then some did a more me typical conference approach, which is let's not get there too any turn up at a comfortable time and kind of do what's left of the day into the evening. And then there's people like me who just come for the party. The party princess. Which, you know, I'm trying to think of the double barreled queue you can do for partying about I'm at a mess. So we'll have to stick with party cream. So turn up in the evening. You missed the little break session where we went and toiled and debated highly technical and intelligent debate at the White Horse pub. How to live the kind. Indeed. How to get the right on a pint of lager. Well, they don't do it right here in the UK is all I'm going to say. Controversial. Controversial. They're green. Disgreeting. So just saying. I've heard that about the Belgians Christ alive. So we moved into the evening and if there is one thing Mr. Weil absolutely knows how to put together in his party. He knows how to party that man. He does. So we had we had people were encouraging was the black time and people were encouraged to go in kind of refresh and get a bit party vibe and some people put some fab outfits and then we had a nice sit down dinner and then that led into the kerfafel awards. Which was a slightly unexpected part of the evening actually I didn't even realize. I'm sorry not to do the event and we were doing an awards. So that was a nice touch and so that was split into two parts. So we had the kerfuffle trusted supplier awards. And that was as the label says products that kerfuffle had spent time analyzing reviews and client feedback to establish their own kind of performance metric in terms of satisfaction kind of like their own NPS score. And yeah, the announcer awards on the day. And then they followed those immediately by the kerfuffle trusted agent awards, which I don't think anyone knew anything about. Evidence by the fact that about half the agent to won awards were the end of the run. Matt Bulldog was a good standing dog that man. Matt Bulldog did his service. He accepted awards on behalf of at least five if not ten agents. I think at one point myself and Graham Wilson had a tussle trying to go and steal. I mean, I left. You didn't make it. No, we didn't. We got shut down. What can we say? I think they were worried I might squash Graham Wilson. So we're going with health and safety. Health and safety move. But how does that go together with a Simon Whale event? Well, health and safety. No, it's true. It actually makes him break out in hives. He'd say it three times loudly in his presence. He has mild palpitations. But yeah, it was, I think it was the fastest awards ceremony I've ever been to. I mean, they had definitely taken notes from industry awards of, you know, an hour and a half of two hours of announcements. My God, were those guys looking to achieve possibly the fastest ever industry awards ceremony on record and they smashed it out the park. They did. And it was great fun. And it was great fun. But sometimes it can be, you know, a bit boring. You're set in the public. Why are they? But also again, they started with London. Yes. Every conference we go to, our every award team. I know it's dangerous. We can't ever be late. I never be late. I just managed to sit down again. Again. That's our MO. We were incredibly delighted because we actually picked up an award for each business other day. So, Depository won the Gold Award in the deposit protection space. I did find it quite funny that all three, all three award winners, Gold, Silver and Bronze, none of us actually protect deposits. Letter Lions, I think I'm getting this the right way around. Letter Lions got Bronze, Flat Fair got Silver and we got Gold. None of us actually specifically protect deposits. Sorry TDS. Sorry Mind deposit. Sorry DPS. Tough, better luck next time. But no, that was, it's always nice to have recognition of the work we do. Especially because again, it is based on our customers' reviews. Which is everything. Right. And that's when you know you're doing something right. It's actually the people that work with the platform that know what we do, what it says on the tin. It does deliver. And so that was, it was wonderful. And as you say, completely not expected. Yeah. Really lovely surprise. And then base picked up a trusted agent award as well. Which was a lovely little surprise for our learning operations. So yeah, a fun day had by all. After the awards, we had a fantastic life band. Oh, the band was amazing. I mean, I did not leave that dance floor from 9 till 1. I have not seen you or Carla, but particularly you, I have never seen you to dance that much in a event ever. Like you, I don't know if you skipped training that morning, but. No, no, I trained. I trained that morning. Sure. I trained and then, but endurance training is really good. But literally. Because I think the moment it started, what about 9, right? So in the last thing, 9, it went on to the level. Well, actually gone 11 because then they did the last hour and a half DJ set. That was fantastic. Again, you did more dancing. More dancing. I think you and Carla were on the dance floor for I would wager three of those four hours at least. My, my, my legs. My legs. It's a good side. It's a good side. And that had nothing to do with the belt and three fingers either. No. So. The only thing I would say that end of the event killed me. I have never known anything as brutal as the way the Wembley staff got us out. Yeah. Literally one o'clock hit and it was like. Lights went on. It interrogated. Yeah. Every single bright white light came on. Like there was no hiding anymore and it was literally decidol. Yeah. I'd seen the floor staff kind of moving, sweeping like packs for about half an hour before. Like literally anyone put like an empty glass down or a bottle that it was gone. You could see they were like, finish. Go away. I'm going home. But yeah, literally that one AM music off. And then. It was a little descent. Yeah. On four escalators. It was four. I think the biggest escalators you have seen with a lot of drunk football. Four big escalators. It's a very, very drunk. And yeah. And then unlike a lot of sensible people, because obviously we live in London, a lot of people who come down had booked rooms and were a blast. So most people kind of peeled off to a nearby immediate vicinity hotel room. You and I were left at about 1.30 in the morning trying to navigate the glory of getting a taxi in is what is arguably a zombie land at 1.30 in the morning. It was an absolute ghost town. It was. Despite 3,000 residential blocks there. So yeah, I think you managed to order a new bus. It was like a 20 minute wait for it to turn up. And we were facing the very real possibility because oh, we had the end of joy. My phone had died. So I couldn't order my own Uber. So we were facing the very real possibility that I was going to have to take an Uber all the way to your place and then take another Uber for your place back home, which at 1.30 in the morning, having got up at 5.30 in the morning, having gone to bed. It was a bit much. It was a bit much, but I was. But as always you were jammy. The luck of the Viking, the luck of the Viking, the Black Cabareye. Black Cabareye, about five minutes before the text. It's a few divisions there. And then he left me all there on my allowance themselves. Yes, how we're wrong. What we do? In hindsight, I've probably should have said here on, you take that and change the arrival address of the Uber to my address, outward within the chivalrous thing to do. That's my note, for a couple of fun. Make sure and take the first taxi home, you douche back. So it was all an amazing day. Heart felt congrats to the lunatic that Isalen Weil for deciding to do something like that just two months before and for the epic efforts of Sarah and Mincey for actually taking Simon's vision and turning it into a real life child. So yeah, I said to the master is I think you deserve an all expenses. You both deserve an all expenses paid holiday at least a week in the Maldives on Kefuffle. I think Wady's going to get back to Mon that one. I actually told Sarah send the questionnaire round to every attendee to ask do you deserve a salary increase? I'm not sure if Simon's going to be too happy to do that. I don't think we're going to win an award next year. I can't think why, but stay tuned, tunnel tell. So we wake up slightly bleary eyed Friday morning, aching limbs from too much dancing. I still trained. You see. She did still train as well. Lunatic. Was it nine o'clock in the morning on the bike? Nine o'clock, nine o'clock. I wasn't quite as fresh, got to be honest. And then we met up, what was it about, one-ish? No, it was a bit late about the time I managed to get through. It was two, three o'clock. Then it was an epic, epic drive. We did a north London to cross London to get to your miles. Was it 26 miles? Two hours. Well, for me, it was actually two hours. Oh, did you have to? That was for where you picked us up. Two hours, 40 minutes. I mean, to put that in perspective, that is my total driving time when I drive to Antwerp. Yeah. And we've just made it to the other side of London. I remember the two hours, I think I've seen to remember it was about 26 miles and it was like two hours. It's like, cool. I'm going to average 13 miles an hour. I mean, people run this. Yeah, I do. Not us, of course. Yeah. But like the world champion. Oh, yeah, probably runners. I mean, that was basically a marathon, right? Yeah, and the winners do that in about two hours. So what we're saying is next time we hire marathon runners and we ride them on jockeys. All right. You heard it here first. Charity sponsorship starting what, May next year. So we headed down to Dorking. We checked into our lovely little hotel that had been recommended. Which was lovely, by the way. Really nice. Very nice setting. Had a lovely pool to the mouth. Nothing too swanky. But yeah, surprise thing was the pool. Which thank God, we got a message about them all and going, you do know the hotel is a pool, right? Hopefully take off swimming current. Thank you, Vicky. Yeah. Vicky B. That was a lifesaver the following morning. And yeah, got ourselves down there, got ourselves settled, then got our glam on. Well first met up with a couple of people because there was quite several of us. I think we've taken over probably about half the hotel. Yeah, so that was lovely to kind of catch up. But we didn't have much time really. We had about two hours in between arriving. So an hour to chin wag and then about an hour to go and look the best versions of ourselves. Thank Christ for me. They had relaxed the dress code slightly because it's normally black tie. The thought of me being trapped in a dikki bow and dinner jacket in like 35 degree heat. I must say this venue is on much better than where we were previous years. Although it didn't have air con in the main bit where we had our dinner where the bar was. There was a bit of air con. Oh. It did feel so good. Because you mentioned air con that is one thing as well. We'll say about kerfuffle con. It had. Then you had amazing air con because again we've all been to conferences and you stick 500 to a thousand agents and suppliers in a room with not the greatest air conditioning and it gets pretty sweaty pretty quickly. So yeah no air con one the day not great for the environment but great for comfort. So there we go. Make of that what you will. But yeah so got down so like I said stunning a stunning location. It was Denby's wine estate down in Dorking. So it's one of the largest wine estates. It was beautiful when you drove in. Driving through the vine. In this clear blue bright sunshine day. Come to the building I mean that building was pretty imposing. I said that was not at all what I expected a winery in England to look like. It was nice. It did. And you know it's always nice those things feel like a special occasion because everyone's getting a bit clammed up. They had made the decision this year to take a little bit of a break from the agent entertainment. So those of you who have attended any recent years the last few were Epson's race course and I think there was prior to that was hotel in London. Most of you will have been subjected to some sort of terrifying performance by me at some point. Jesus Christ. I mean I'm so lucky I escaped that one last year. Yeah you're not going to escape the next one. What are you going to do the next one? Yeah I don't know I'm going to stitch you up because I've done three now and you haven't done one. So what have I done? The first one was singing. Agents got talent. Yes. The year of Mr. Whale and Mr. Mitzvie's iconic and I use that in the most flattering terms. My eyes are still burning those outfits. Iconics. Iconics. It was the leggings. It was the leggings. So they had the said no well I don't know that that standard routine I mean if you can call it standard was meant to be three minutes I think it was about half an hour. Of stream of consciousness. Mr. Whale. Stream of consciousness based on an entire day of drinking I think. If you want to find out more find people if it doesn't trigger his trauma by all means ask David Mince but I think you have to use have to establish a safe word beforehand so you know when to turn away from it. So that was that was my first party on the stage. You did Bruno Mars. And Bruno Mars of course. And you had the pimp outfit. Funny pimp with Christmas baubles because I think that one they did it was in winter that one. That was in winter. And then I think it moved to the summer. And then what two years ago I got wrote in to do the ballroom and I said I did I was given rock and roll rock and roll. So yeah it showed everyone why I didn't train as a musical theatre actor at school. But yourself Dan you did great you were robbed of that trophy. You were robbed. I'm telling you. I mean not really because Danielle who won it was absolutely incredible and like felt like borderline a professional dancer so he cheated a little bit. So yeah I was robbed because you were a ringer. And then last night we last year last last night. Definitely not last night. You still have that outfit there. Is that what you're telling me? Private performance is only. But no last year myself and who is it Ben Madden, Dan Madden, Chris Bucklar and Wailing. Who am I forgetting? Well myself. I'd like to say delighted are probably saying my trauma trauma is a terrified judges and audience alike with the rendition of us being the spice boys and yes that exactly what you think it is. Five very undynamic men cross dressing and pretending to be the Spice Girls and trying to do a choreographed dance. And to put it in perspective you were baby spy. I mean obviously. Why not? How's that not? Because you're so dainty. Delica I think it's my flowing blonde locks and my natural kind of bouncy and step. But yeah having subjected the industry to the traumas of recent years they made the very sensible decision this year to go do you know what let's have a little bit of a break. To be honest I think if on a Vicky probably needed a break from trying to marshal and hood wink and manage all of us agency people into actually turning up and actually delivering something substance. So I think it gave them I think that removed a lot of work for them this year of not having to kind of chaperone and marshal that whole process. So they made a decision this year no agency performance we're going to have a bit more of a kind of traditional ball in terms of chat from David Nunes the chair. We had the industry awards we had the industry auction and then really that was it then it was onto the raffle and then live band and more dancing. And wonderful food of course and food was fantastic. Food was absolutely cracking which is always good. I mean do you like to think so in a wine estate if they get that wrong something's really going wrong. But no I mean it was lovely we were sat on the table with Michelle Chris and Matt from PBS media who a lot of you guys will know they help agents up and down the country with video content everything from there like also protection production kind of subscription services you can sign up to bespoke on location filming like they did with us twice last year. And that was amazing to see Michelle walk away with her award for her incredible brave shave fundraise that she did when she was going through. She looked amazing she looked incredible stunning dress on hair looked on point absolutely fantastic Michelle well well deserved. They were all looking fabulous and yeah and they were they were obviously numerous very worthy awards one on the day for a change. It's not typically an awards we tend to enter ourselves into we do do a bit of charity stuff but we're definitely not one of the most proactive charity fundraisers in the industry and actually it was really nice just to sit back and celebrate what our industry does. You know big agents small agents from from the southwest to the very north tip of England it was nice to see all sorts of different things. Not only as well how much time and effort that some of these agents go through to do these fundraising and special events bearing in mind when you're running an agency literally every minute counts right and to see that they freely give their time up to raise the kind of money that they they raise for agents giving every year is just amazing. Yeah so Amy Shields stood up and yet again braved the mic which is probably her least favourite place to be but for something that's so important she makes a point I think definitely the second year in a row she's done there maybe third but braved the microphone which like I said is as confident and engaging as Amy comes across standing up on a stage of the microphone kind of service spotlight not her favourite place to be so yet again got up there did the brave thing and was there on behalf of simply convincing one of the lead sponsors announcing all of the awards which was awesome to see oh Kirsty Frank went up for women in a state agency I think it was all of the girls because Claryates was there I'm gonna forget other people now but they got the award for the walk for Sarah that's right it was behalf of the walks that was really lovely that was yet another nod to good old Sarah Edmondson and it was nice to see women in a state actually recognised for more than just the conference and the Facebook group actually that's something really proactive and I think last time I checked I think they were hovering around the £80,000 fun raise marketing they were on £77 something like that so if you haven't already donated do reach out to women in a state agency they are still taking donations they would love to get that up to a six figure raise if they can I think that would be the dream but they smashed their intended target of £70,000 so yeah if you're a fan of women in a state agency if you have lost someone or had someone go through the battle of cancer or indeed you're a dear friend or client of Sarah Edmondson and you haven't contributed a little something do hop on over to the women in a state agency pages you'll easily find their fundraising link make a donation and in fact now I've said that we'll make sure we pop a link in the comments when we post the video so you guys can find that really easily so again it was really nice to kind of have that contrast of kind of business day event with kerfuffle learning bit of you know business and selling and partnering and awards and blah blah and then to have a second day which was purely just about looking at the incredible things that our industry does up and down the country for people from every walk of life and amazing to see so many people who were there the day before sure a lot of people when there were some people he'd even I think I think it was I don't think you know I'm saying it was Dr. Neil Cobald of paid proper repair who blew me away with his diary of the week I'm not going to reveal everything he'd been up to but needless to say agents giving was combination of a very very very busy week and I think we saw him at kerfuffle con because I really sponsor he was at agents giving ball the one detail I will release is somehow between those two he sandwiched him going to ask got in the morning so he did kerfuffle con was up in the morning got to ask got dinner to the box at ask got as a guest wasn't a reaper sponsorship and then managed to make it a long day just give me more in the evening so Dr. Neil Cobald sir we salute you I think you trumped waley on celebration this last week bravo my man and yeah so I mean it was it was a really lovely lovely couple of days that night it was my turn to dance a lot I mean I think you still dance a lot as well but the legs did feel a bit heavy I got my I'm intrigued to see the photos there's gonna be some great photos and possibly some slightly alarming photos so we'll see such is my last I think really changed it was all in all an amazing trip with you and Carla I absolutely enjoyed it and it was a bit harsh when it's seven o'clock on the Saturday morning the fire alarm decided to go off in the hotel so it's fabulous as I tell what we had no qualm about just staying in bed I mean I'm going like I think we kind of accepted our fate we were kind of like if this is the way we go I did say we're on the ground floor we've got a direct we had a door we can get out like we're not trapped but that was painful I mean literally folks it was it was the most real life and it just goes back solidly for ten minutes like did not stop did not break we did not get out of bed in that whole ten minutes no I did I did get up I went to the door I saw a lot of people sticking back to the neighbors back inside no fully clothed we're not husband and wife like I don't think I read them with friend oh oh I was enough to prove no I do find it funny I can't remember who it was but someone at agents giving ball did make a comment again I find it funny like we what 21 years we've been we've been on this journey together and I still find it funny that people do still think that we are not only business partners but life partners she's not that mad and that and I'm terrified me I wouldn't crush me kill me crucify me using her Greek Greek weapons and so yeah no so we had a startling seven o'clock alarm but unsurprising and we managed to very quickly go back to sleep after that and then we're up breakfast and then I said then a swim which I'm gonna say after after I kind of 48 hours of of industry eventing that swim was definitely needed before the car journey home because then it was yet another three hour journey to get these reprobates back home yeah and then before I finally and we had to get me back because I was on daddy GT I mean bless my wife likes on Saturday so our kids have been chucked with some mates turned out bless them they thought they were going to play football with their friends turns out their football's academy was doing the football awards they were forced to sit in a park in 35 degree heat for a three hour football award ceremony so I turned up to two very hot very bored very frustrated kids at about two o'clock of Saturday after the year when do your idea of will just oh yeah I'm very not to be said to these guys or do you know what rule is I'm picking up the kids we're gonna home I'm sitting on the sofa it's screen time for the kids rules go out the window they can watch and do what they want I'm doing nothing that very quickly transpired to Jesus Christ I need to entertain my children and stop them being so annoyed and frustrated and overheated so we went swimming so I packed in a second swim today and yeah that was the end I have to be honest I managed to get home unpack and then melted into my sofa I mean damn right I did not do much more after that is the very thing I wish I could have done as you know life choices matter but I feel I know I'm kind it kind of understanding why in our two businesses I am the only person who has kids those are the those in the office who might have been considering them I think listens to half my tales of what I think you're right I'll be I'll be an uncle or a godfather I'll be one of those ones that can you know have fun with the kids play with the kids get them really that I don't know any of them so I'm a home now so one thing I did want to talk about we've talked about what fun we had at them but one thing that quite often gets talked about online and in industry comments when it comes to these conferences and stuff other people who don't come and they kind of don't really get it they're just a bit like oh why do you want to go and spend a day with other estate agents and why do you want to go and spend a day listening to suppliers and you know why do you want to be with your competitors and you know what does your business get out of doing this stuff so rather than starting with the conference hall I think we're going to start with the person who goes to a lot you do turn up to less conferences and you tend than I do and you tend to kind of pick and choose the ones that really sit right for you so I mean obviously agents giving ball we've had a couple in this year but really agents giving ball Esther's the neck of books those are really your three I'm going to say ladies sorry ladies sorry gave us a good lip service earlier totally wiped you from the record when it came to it so we've got those four yeah so why why do you think it's important to go to these events a it's always lovely to catch up with all the wonderful people that we've gotten to know over the years and that would be very privileged actually to call friends now forget about being competitors also it's you know we we work in our patch of the country patch of the city the people that we need are all over the country you know they're not just London agents they're not just London suppliers there's always something to be learned there's always something that you end up talking something that you might be struggling with yourself that somebody will say oh have you tried this or this is how we've done it this was a solution we put in place but I for me as a as a female I think over the last couple of years specifically I think that whole drive of us lifting each other up is become more and more visible but also you feel it you know you're generally happy to see one another generally happy to spend time together and yeah always delighted to go to these places now and I think it's interesting I think we add in you know Kavuffle this year kind of adds in a slight different mix but when you look at the four you've done the last couple of years like you said women and state agency agents giving Esther's and next I feel like they all deliver something quite different right you've got women in the state agency we know the last couple of years groundbreaking conference taking a very kind of personal introspective look at really what drives people with an agency rather than how do you get more listings or you know how do you increase your fees really looking at the people within the business and the personal battles and struggles again that I mean obviously this year I was very privileged to stood on that stage for them and to be able to share my story and even like arriving at Kavuffle even arriving at agents giving people are still coming up to me going love your child and that's four months later yes I told Kirsty as well when I saw her and Verona on the day of Kavuffle conference you know the amount of women and men you know not just women but men as well the amount of people A that reached out to say they enjoyed it but also to share their stories and their struggles and what it meant to them to have listened to it and that was exactly how I felt when I went to that conference so yeah so I'd argue that's kind of more personal emotional growth kind of conference then you've got agents giving ball which as people really touched on it's just beautiful to celebrate again not focusing on instructions and fees and the Renters Rights Bill or any of that waffle but just what our industry does so well take such a bad reputation right as in you know got forbid you should say to someone that you're in a state agent I mean we decided not really talk about it but panorama last night you know yet again we're gonna do a special episode and a night in full haven't actually watched it so we're gonna watch it that's gonna be our homework this week and we'll do a little chat about it next week but our industry obviously the reputation that kind of goes before us that is not how you and I see this industry no no not the people that we see at those conferences and those events not at all and so therefore agents giving is that much more sweet for us because they do raise a phenomenal amount of money they put in a lot of effort and again it's just a celebration right it's everyone coming together to celebrate people doing great stuff raising some more money on the spot with the auctions and the raffles and all that sort of stuff and just again stepping away from from the focus on agency in terms of an operational standpoint and just said about the good things and then kind of quite a big shift over now to the esters and the Nagel Wars now the esters you and I have been big advocates the esters since I think we first entered in 2010 2010 was the first time. Our first entry 2012 I think was our first award. And what do you say what you love about the esters I'm shoe running myself into answering my own questions again. As I always say I love the esters because it is the one award term on either again the award is based on the reviews from your clients we have always used it as a prime test to see what we're getting right what could we tweak what can we do better and trust me when I say that when we see those reviews we take it to heart. There are times where you know we're not always perfect something gets written and that is then at the back of our mind it's things badly. Without that one when we get four and a half stars and set a five and it's like what did we do wrong. We actually recently got a review and the review itself is stunning the word the talent is absolutely raving how fantastic and gave her a four star because there are people out there who you can never get five star is perfection yeah five star and that's again that's that's that's that's different. But it's the first not choice absolutely. For them four out of five damn that's just about as good as it's going to get. So the S does I mean it's been such a big part I believe of our success as in it is something that is helped shape our business. And I give you credit for that that was a vision you had you saw that of this is a way that we can differentiate ourselves and if we keep hitting this every year year in year out you know at least get a nomination I mean we've done extremely well and we're going to need a bigger I mean we're going to need a bigger cupboard. It was my idea for us to throw our hat in the ring to begin with but I don't think I ever never had aspirations outside of a London award that is absolutely sure never I don't think necessarily aspired although obviously you know you're into a competition of course you want to win but don't particularly in the early days had no aspirations around a gold so you know it was nice to pick one up that early but we had an amazing run from I think 2016 to 2020 where we won a Grand Prix each of those years culminating in the Zoopla Excellence Award unfortunately that was the year of the Covid Awards where everything was done digitally. But that was the end of Zoopla's 10 year sponsorship of the awards and they decided they wanted to recognize the agents with the best score over the 10 year period and that was that was an incredible moment for us to walk away with the gold Letting's Award the Gold Excellence Award but it can obviously over the years we've gotten to know Simon and Sarah amazingly well. I know what I've always said I love I love the purity of the awards it is Justin Awards and with the greatest respect to your kerfuffles your nags and your and your EA you know masters with all the thought leadership and stuff it is lovely to go along to an event that isn't all about suppliers selling to you or put them over here and isn't all about suppliers selling to you isn't all about you know like I said thought leadership or you know new ways to earn more money or get more listings it is just an outright amount of times quite outrageous collection of a thousand to twelve hundred agents celebrating a year of bloody hard work and some amazing results. And it is the one where we take the entire team as a way of giving the opportunity to say you guys have done a brilliant job this is a party now you know let's just have a great time eating drinking and being married. And then the last one you attend is typically traditionally one of the last events of the year and that is the negotiated conference and awards and again we typically divide our efforts I turn up for the conference part of the day you and Carla typically join for the evening celebrations and what kind of stands out to you about that I mean obviously that's a slightly different voting process so Esther's is a fee based application and it's a panel of our industry. We take Carla and Tris with us because you know they help and work completely on those applications and it's obviously very detailed you're kind of selling your company as in you're setting it up why you should be getting that award and again it just brings that is again suppliers and agents it's a bit of mix of everything in the middle of centre of London in a stunning venue it almost feels like coming home by now. And you've got that glam in the evening they do do the black tie. It's a bit it's a bit more glam. It's a little bit more glam. I mean Esther's is fairly glam apart from weirdos who turn up in biking out. But obviously Esther's is an afternoon thing so you arrive from about 12 to 12. But we start with a Champions breakfast at about 11. By the time we then get in that finishes at 6, 7 in the evening whereas the nags that's an evening event. Yes yeah. So that is like 9 till 4 or 5 in conferences and then a couple of hour break for the reset and then we'll be 6 to 7 o'clock kind of get that. And then on the carriages. And then so you know on top of those I also typically go to the EA Masters which was a great one organised by Peter Knight and the team at a property academy. So again that's a mixture of loads of suppliers lots of thought leadership throughout the day and then you kind of have that break again not a bigger break as the other ones but a little bit of a reset and then it moves into dinner and wards in the evening with the estate agent guide. And I think, like I said there's a lot of people out there who poo poo the conferences. Poo poo awards will often be like 'oh I do waste that time you know your time doing that'. And I think the only thing I would say to the naysayers is and Sonja is going to reiterate what you've already said. So when it comes to awards you're right the esters the nays the EA Masters the kerfuffle awards they're not the Oscars you're not going to stick it on your website you're not going to walk through a client's door and go do you know what we've got a kerfuffle award and they're going to turn around and go 'you don't sign your new on the spot'. And yes you can argue that their inewances about how many agents are in this and how many agents are in that and who decides this and who decides that and we sold this quick and we sold it is another benchmark it is another metric that you as an agency at the very least aspire to deliver the best possible service you can. It does no harm that you can say we are an award winning letting agency. The amount of times that I go out and do appraisals and I meet new clients the amount of times that they actually bring that up and ask me 'oh in your signature you have these awards what is that about?' or they will basically say when I searched for an agent it was the thing that really grabbed my attention and then I looked further at that. So I mean that's a really interesting point and actually I had a really interesting talk a couple of weeks ago about AI and how AI now searches and validates and qualifies data and fascinatingly when it comes to a state and letting agents one of the things that AI holds in high regard is awards. So because it looks at those as independently certified things that are awarded based on a reasonable level of merit all the major awards carry a certain foundation of legitimacy to the criteria that delivers those awards and a decent segment at the market. So when it comes to awards think about that if nothing else I think the two primary reasons we like to do it is number one what it means to the stuff. I don't think I've ever seen a more joyous reaction. I don't think I've ever seen a more joyous reaction than some of our big wins at the esters. Like when we won our first Grand Prix award back in 2016 I mean the way our table exploded and I were happy but times that by five for what it felt and looked like it meant to our team so if you want to keep your team engaged and driven and motivated and bought into your agency your brand your mission that's what winning an award delivers and the other side of that is it is just another way to benchmark and legitimize the way you convey how good you are at your job because as we all know every agent up and down the country says that they're the best thing since sliced bread and they're doing things differently and they've started their agency because they didn't like the tide or the way the agency has done. It doesn't always measure up to the hype. So it's just another way to reassure that consumer you know they'll be looking at reviews and that's the nice thing with the esters you get both bangs for your buck you get your reviews and you get awards in one thing so if you want to focus on that do reach out to the esters team find out a little bit more about that. So that's what I would say about the awards with the conferences. If you're not I genuinely think if you're not trying to educate yourself and learn from other people who've got boots on the ground not people who have written a book not people who just stand up on a stage and pontificate about the hypotheticals or who are a sales expert but that could be selling anything from air conditioning to bottles of Coca-Cola to a house. Forget the speakers on the stage. For me the speakers are kind of a bonus. I find personally like there are nuggets that I will take out I will go to maybe one in four talks in a conference and from those talks I will take nuggets from that but where I get my greatest value is spending time talking to other agents and those are agents from as Anced earlier down the street people who would be perceived as competitors you know and some of those agents that likes a Paramount properties and location location are two companies which in theory we're direct competitors we're all very letting focused location location are in and we're both in Hackney Paramount is is whole London and we do a lot of knowledge sharing a lot of chatting a lot of chin wagging you get so much out of that if you don't come out with a new product or a new service you'll come out with a new way to handle a difficult situation with a member of staff or a really tricky landlord or you know we were confronted with with this issue whether it's compliance or fine whatever it is and this is how we mitigated it and this is how we made sure that's never going to happen again and if nothing else it reassures you that the madness and the mad things that we go through in a 365 day year doing the jobs that we do you're not alone almost nothing you're being confronted with good or bad is unique to you or your business or your situation someone has been through it before and someone's going to go through it after you so don't get too hung up on trying to hang a value of oh well if I go and I spend 500 quid on ticket and travel then I need to know I'm going to add at least a thousand pounds to my business get away from that and just try and think about if I could come away with three things from a conference what would I want those to be what are the three kind of problems or opportunities that I want to solve or maximize on and then establish whether that's a conversation you're going to have with an agent or a conversation you're going to have with a supplier because also again at conferences like it or not you've got 10 15 20 30 suppliers ramp up so if you want to figure out what's coming and what's new catch up with your own suppliers face to face rather than via email and over the phone actually have eyeball to eyeball chats maybe about stuff that's that's not too easy to talk about but sometimes it's easier to do it face to face than like I said over any more phone call whatever it is just go um if you ask around if you are a conference virgin uh I think reach out to the broader conference let's call us the conference community there's probably there's a good chunk of us I think between us if you want to find out which is the best conference to kind of pop your cherry depending on your conference cherry nothing else we're not backing your belgian three fingers now so if you want to pop your conference cherry and you're not sure which is the conference to do reach out to any one of us there's a whole heap of us and just say that this is this is me as an agency this is what I really want to get where should I go and not only can we probably tell you you know what I think this is where you should start um but knowing people and sponsors in it we might even be able to help you get a bit of a discounted ticket to go along so I mean as usual I think I've probably covered about 80% of that conversation our chat that was meant to end at four is now 440 so uh let's keep this to half an hour as ended up as an hour 10 smashing it again by field keeping things shortened to the point. Anika always a pleasure never a chore and uh we promised this week to watch uh panorama uh and throw things at the telly um and gather our thoughts and try not to talk about it for an hour but we'll come back next week and we'll have a little chin bag about panorama and the fallout and also I think we'll have a little look about what kind of comes out in the wash over the next week as there's been a lot of agents jumping on sharing their disgust or and some offering a bit more of a measured approach softly softly um yeah but we'll have a little check about that next week guys thanks a lot and we'll have some more guests coming soon and we've booked in some guests uh in the coming weeks we've got uh christinland booked in I think back end of august uh the shy retiring and highly unappinionated mr russell quirk will be joining me at some point don't worry i'm gonna give them a tough time um and i've really stitched myself up now there is a third guest i've locked in but i'm gonna pretend it's a surprise um if you're interested in being a guest and there's literally anything you want to talk about but it's an interesting topic please reach out directly message socials comments whatever if you want to come to say hi not scary you can do it here in trida bring your own timer a very good timer block out your diary um but we can do it like we do this in person you're welcome to come and join us in shortage or we can jump on line but uh guys thanks a lot that's another Viking chat done Anika thank you laders bye bye