Breaking the Mould: Women, Work & Walking Your Own Path in Property with Wendy Peterman

In this deeply personal and brilliantly insightful episode of The Viking Chats, Kristjan Byfield sits down with Wendy Peterman—Managing Director of Petermans estate agents—for a conversation that reaches far beyond floorplans, fee structures and portals.

Wendy is one of the most authentic and quietly powerful voices in our industry today. As the second generation to take the reins at her family-run agency, and one of the few women to lead a long-standing independent estate agency, Wendy offers a refreshingly honest perspective on leadership, legacy, equality and the human side of property.

This isn’t a story about breaking glass ceilings with flashy headlines. It’s about consistently showing up, earning your place, and creating space for others to rise alongside you.

🏡 From Family Business to Female Leadership

Wendy didn’t inherit her role—she earned it. Starting with no knowledge of the industry and no fast-track because of her surname, she worked her way up at Petermans, proving herself not just to her family, but to colleagues, clients and competitors alike.

She and Kristjan unpack what it’s really like working in a family business—navigating generational expectations, establishing your own voice, and finding purpose beyond the family name.

And for those in similar positions (or considering handing the reins to the next generation), her reflections on structure, succession and personal growth are a masterclass in thoughtful leadership.

👩‍💼 Gender Bias, Confidence & Culture

As a woman in property, Wendy shares powerful and honest insights into the implicit and explicit bias she’s experienced over the years—and how she’s learned to face it with grace, assertiveness and resilience.

She opens up about:

• Being underestimated in the boardroom
• The challenge of being heard in a male-dominated space
• The tension between confidence and “likeability”
• Why women still face invisible tests their male counterparts often don’t

But this isn’t a doom-and-gloom narrative. It’s a rallying cry for creating space, listening better, and leading differently.

🤝 Flat Structures & Empowered Teams

Wendy and Kristjan dive into the operational DNA of Petermans—a business where hierarchy takes a back seat to collaboration, autonomy and mutual respect.

They explore:

• How flat structures can drive retention and engagement
• The difference between delegation and abdication
• Why a “brain dump” culture (as Wendy puts it!) can unlock hidden leadership
• How legacy businesses can adapt without losing their soul

It’s a fascinating look at how culture shapes service—and why empowered teams deliver better outcomes for both landlords and tenants.

🎯 Lessons for the Property Sector (and Beyond)

Whether you're a letting or estate agency leader, a property investor, part of an institutional landlord operation, or simply passionate about people-first business, this episode offers takeaways on:

• Leadership without ego
• Cultural evolution in family firms
• Making space for women, new voices and new ideas
• Balancing commercial success with community values

Wendy reminds us that the future of property isn't about chasing volume, awards, or tech trends. It's about consistency, care and creating impact at every level of the business.

This is more than a podcast about property. It’s a reflection on how we work, lead, and live—with integrity, curiosity, and courage.

Transcript

Kristjan Byfield: Wendy. Hello.
Wendy Penfold: Hello.
Kristjan Byfield: Howdy Wendy. How are we?
Wendy Penfold: Yeah, good. How are you?
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah, good. Are you at home or at the office?
Wendy Penfold: No, I'm at the office.
Kristjan Byfield: Oh, you got a bougie comfy sofa in your office then?
Wendy Penfold: Yeah, look, this is our little conference room thing.
Kristjan Byfield: Oh, nice.
Wendy Penfold: Oh, no, you can't see it. Look, we got a little Christmas tree which never turned off.
Kristjan Byfield: Oh, little Christmas.
Wendy Penfold: Used to be our letting office. Oh, I'm going too fast. So, anyway, it's now a little room and it's much better.
Kristjan Byfield: Nice. That's lovely. Little peaceful retreat. Nice.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah, it's good for things like this because no one comes in and um if we've got clients or any of that malarkey. How was your day? That look good.
Kristjan Byfield: Oh, yeah. Good. Yeah, it was lovely. We kind of we we we turns out we lucked out.
 
 

00:01:16

 
Kristjan Byfield: We kind of squeezed it between Elvie having chickenpox and we've just got back and now Arlo's got them.
Wendy Penfold: Oh god. Oh no.
Kristjan Byfield: So, we timed it to perfection because we woke up this morning and he was like, "Oh, I don't feel well." We peeled back the duvet. Just spots everywhere. It's just that, oh god.
Wendy Penfold: Well, it takes about 10 days to come out. So, yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah. Yeah. So, we lucked out though because obviously that would have killed our camping holiday if we couldn't have gone anywhere with them. So, um, plus a little sick lad in a tent isn't much fun. So, no, we had a we had a really lovely time. We made a bit of a we did a made a bit of a trip up there. So, we did three little stops up there. We did a motel and then this amazing uh like frontier style little log cabin we stayed in which is incredible.
Wendy Penfold: Oh, brilliant.
 
 

00:02:04

 
Kristjan Byfield: And then a little Welsh pup hotel which was lovely. The room was our bedroom was massive. Um and then we did the campsite which was lovely and it was so lovely.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: We we were going to do uh a kind of stop off. We were going to kind of break up the drive back with a stop off, but it was so lovely there. We were like, why don't we just do an extra night and then just blast it back home with the kids in the car.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: Um, so we did did an extra night and then we just did a big big blast back on the Thursday and then I jumped in the office Friday because I was like, I'll just clear my desk, go through the emails so that got to hit.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. Up day.
Kristjan Byfield: Have you been on any holidays?
Wendy Penfold: No, I haven't been away. Um, well, I have. I went to South Africa in January and um then we went to the Caribbean, which was a really stupid thing to do anyway.
 
 

00:02:53

 
Kristjan Byfield: Nice.
Wendy Penfold: um in April and then it was too near the two holidays were too close to each other. Yeah. Anyway, and so now we haven't got any Well, no, we're going to Tenneref in September for six days.
Kristjan Byfield: Oh no. So now you've kind of binned it all and now you've got the rest of the year to to
Wendy Penfold: Um which is um and then we're going back again in November with my mom and dad. So, we have got two more things to look forward to.
Kristjan Byfield: And then do you guys do anything over Christmas? Do you do a big family? Like Fair enough.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, always at my house because we're the drinkers in our family. So, we're the ones that never want to drive anywhere. But this year is going to be quite small. This year we've got my mom and dad staying with my sister and her a lot are going they're going to Japan for Christmas.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
 
 

00:03:48

 
Kristjan Byfield: Oh, wow.
Wendy Penfold: Um, and I can't have mom and dad on their own because they live quite a long way from me. So Gina normally brings them to us on either Christmas or Boxing Day depending on which we're doing with my lot. Uh but this year we're only having my lot and my mom and dad are coming and staying and I think Phil and Rachel and the girls will come on Christmas day and maybe Ben and Jazz with the uh Ezra and the new baby and that and that's it which is the smallest Christmas we've had for years. It's going to be lovely.
Kristjan Byfield: Yes. And and and obviously because you're the host, you're in charge of all the all the shenanigans that is Christmas.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. Yeah. And it's blooming expensive as well.
Kristjan Byfield: It's expensive.
Wendy Penfold: So, yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: It's bloody hard work.
Wendy Penfold: So, so it's going to be nice.
Kristjan Byfield: Really, really, really hard work.
Wendy Penfold: How about you? Do you do a big Christmas or Oh, 93.
 
 

00:04:38

 
Kristjan Byfield: So again, it kind of swings and roundabouts. Kind of depends where everyone is and what everyone's doing. I think a bit like you, it's kind of over the years it it shrinks. I mean, my mom and dad are now mature, I think, is is is a is is is an understatement. I mean, my dad's 92, so yeah, 93 in December.
Wendy Penfold: So he was just 93. So yeah,
Kristjan Byfield: Um, so he doesn't go anywhere anymore. He's in Monorca. Um, so he now doesn't travel. He had a series of mini strokes kind of two three years ago and that's kind of I mean he's been lucky in that like generally he's still with it mentally. But yeah, he's he's he's when I say he's wheelchair bound, he needs a wheelchair to get around. He's got a very unstable leg that he rely on now.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: So that and everything else, he just he just doesn't go anywhere anymore cuz like we really, you know, I really wanted to get him over when we did the anniversary last year.
 
 

00:05:38

 
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: We were kind of really hoping that would have been his last one of his last little trips over. Um, and they went on a holiday I think about two months beforehand and it nearly killed him quite literally.
Wendy Penfold: Love.
Kristjan Byfield: He was broken. So he just said, "Look, I'm really sorry, but I'm not going anywhere anymore. It just takes out me." And I was like, "Fair enough, Dad." You know, so and my mom is 85, but battling all sorts of weird and wonderful health issues. Um, a lot of which he's actually, you know, battled with for for for decades really. But yeah, again, she she had a massive stroke five years ago. again very lucky. I mean, so we were so lucky. She was living alone at the time. Thank Christ she knew something was wrong. She knew something was wrong and she dialed 999 before she passed out.
Wendy Penfold: Oh my god. Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: So luckily she dialed 999 and I think literally as they answered the stroke hit and she was in the bathroom slump bounced off the ceramic basin onto the the bath onto the floor.
 
 

00:06:52

 
Wendy Penfold: Oh my god.
Kristjan Byfield: Um but yeah, thank Christ she'd called and um Glouester General Hospital is one of the world's leading wards for strokes which is her local hospital. So, I mean, she was so lucky. They were, I think, four minutes after her phone call, they were at her front door and they literally barged her front door open and found her um or actually no, I think the neighbor was there.
Wendy Penfold: Wow.
Kristjan Byfield: The neighbor opened the door for them and um yeah, found her on the floor and got her back. But I mean, bless jumped in the car and blasted to see her. She was literally black and blue down one side where she bounced off stuff. Didn't break anything, which was a miracle. um and initially had the droop, you know, um but actually in that respect made a full recovery, but her energy levels have never recovered.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: Mom always mom was one of those hyper effective, hyperproductive matriarchs that was always running the show, planning everything, loves it. Um but that's what she's really struggled with the last two, three years is just stopping.
 
 

00:08:01

 
Kristjan Byfield: Um yeah, she finds it really hard.
Wendy Penfold: frustrating thing.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah, really hard to switch off. I when you've spent 80 odd years living your life, it's a difficult habit habit to break. So, but yeah, no, because of that and um I mean Haley doesn't get on particularly well with her brother. Um I don't get on with my brother very well either. So, um so yeah, we uh it was quite funny. Haley's Haley's brother actually suggested this Christmas we all rent a big house together.
Wendy Penfold: And you're like,
Kristjan Byfield: literally was texting me whilst we were sat in the room with the family being like, "Find a f****** excuse. I think you've got a conference." So, um yeah. So, no, I think we um I mean, like you, we did kind of we kind of bounce it around a little bit, but we did about three years on the trop where we hosted everyone again because like we had the kids and stuff. It was just like, "Oh, you know what? It's
 
 

00:08:58

 
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: easier for us to stay put and you guys just turn up and then piss off than us try and bounce around and fit into different people's schedules, blah blah blah.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: But no, I think we did three years on the trot and then last year we were like, oh, well, I think it's family, but you do get to a point where you're like, I I don't want to talk
Wendy Penfold: It's exhausting. Yeah. And also it is getting people to leave. It's like, can you just go now? Enough. Just leave. All right. Goodbye.
Kristjan Byfield: anymore. I don't want to listen.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: I don't want to ask if you want another f****** drink. I love you, but please piss off. Like, read read these. I've gone very very quiet. And when that happens, you know, something's very wrong.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. Goodbye.
Kristjan Byfield: Either I'm very bored or Yeah. Anyway, but uh right, we we had a really good little waffle there.
 
 

00:09:45

 
Wendy Penfold: All right.
Kristjan Byfield: Um, so look, couple of things. Is there anything in particular? I mean, these talks are very loose, you know, just a bit of a a general chitchat about anything we want to talk about really. Um, obviously I'm aware I'm chatting to Ben tomorrow, so yes, he's he's booked into for tomorrow, so we'll save we we won't step onto his turf of the the social side.
Wendy Penfold: Oh, are you Oh, okay. Yeah, sh. No, that's his baby. So, good. He can talk about that. I was going to talk about at the very beginning when you wrote to me, I thought, "Oh, maybe I should um talk about AI and um as an older agent, um trying to get to grips with it, working
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: out what it can do and what it can't do and what I've seen it do. I mean, and how exciting it is.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: I don't know if I need Yeah, it's a good one.
Kristjan Byfield: And then another thing I wanted to have a little bit of a chat with you about is um what it's like coming through in a family business or you know whether it's family or just an established independent business.
 
 

00:10:57

 
Kristjan Byfield: You know what that is like coming up and kind of how you kind of honor the past but stamp your own mark.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: Um, and another thing I wanted to kind of touch on because we we've had this battle a bit on and off with with staff with smaller businesses.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: There's this um some of our staff have this perception that this that there's nowhere for them to go.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: So, we keep on having this problem where we get staff get to a certain point and then, you know, they'll be with us for a few years and then they'll suddenly hand in their notice and it's like, oh, I thought you were really happy. Oh, no, I am really happy, but I need somewhere with career progression. It's like we don't want to be here the rest of our lives.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: I I don't I don't want to be fixing people's washing machines until I'm 80. You know, there is opportunity. So, I' I'd love to kind of touch on that.
 
 

00:11:45

 
Wendy Penfold: Yeah, happy to do. Yeah, both of those.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah. Cool. Right. Well, three tasty things to talk about there. So, right, let me hit record uh and we'll get going. And yeah, we'll just waffle for a bit until we run out of steam and then we'll call it a day. Nice and sweet.
Wendy Penfold: Okay.
Kristjan Byfield: Nothing too formal. I like to keep it nice and loose. Right, let me And then you've seen what we do. We um once we've done this, we put it out as a YouTube video. We obviously publish the audio file as a podcast. Um we'll also strip out a load of um short format videos. Um and then we also turn it into a blog as well.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah, that's f***. Um, and I wanted to talk to you and I wanted to talk to you about your AI thing as well, but that's probably a separate conversation.
Kristjan Byfield: And again touch on that in the AI conversation because you know AI has enabled us to kind of really ramp up our content like that.
 
 

00:12:49

 
Kristjan Byfield: I we can talk about that. I mean like I said it's an open book on the call. So um feel free to to throw a uh throw any questions at me as we go.
Wendy Penfold: Okay.
Kristjan Byfield: I'm just making sure we got the right settings. Yep, that's all good. Right, we all good?
Wendy Penfold: Yep.
Kristjan Byfield: Okay. Hello everybody and welcome to the latest episode of the Viking Chat and I'm delighted to be joined today by Wendy Peterman of Peterman's in uh of Hearnhill in South London or that that's one of the that's kind of your central location, isn't it Wendy?
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: So, um, look, you and I have known each other for a couple of years now, I think it is, through the Bulldog, we kind of initially met through the Bulldock brothers dinner, uh, and and kind of been mates's
Wendy Penfold: Yep.
Kristjan Byfield: been in contact since then and we talk, you know, talk about bits and pieces. Um, for those of you who don't know you, um, can we have a little mini Wendy bio?
 
 

00:13:53

 
Wendy Penfold: Okay. Mini Wendy bio. Wendy Peterman. I uh run the family business with my cousin Howard. Um I'm based in Hearn Hill. He's based in Edgeware, which is our other office. Um we do sales and letings, we do commercial, we do some property management. So um we grew up as a letings office. That's how we started our lives over 60 years ago, but uh we've kind of um ended up doing everything. And um yeah, pretty standard stuff really. I mean um on the side I'm looking to publish my first children's book and I'm also in Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: Oh, now with that I didn't know about that.
Wendy Penfold: And also um in the middle of doing a psychology and counseling open university degree. So that's little old me.
Kristjan Byfield: Wow. Never stop learning. That's that's awesome. So, right. I mean, we were having a lovely chat beforehand. You've you've completely caught me off guard with the children's book.
Wendy Penfold: All right.
 
 

00:14:58

 
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: That's it's really interesting. It's something my wife keeps talking a lot about um about wanting to do and doing. Where is that? Is this something you've kind of always wanted to do? Is it more of a recent kind of passion project or
Wendy Penfold: So, English English English was my best English lit was my best subject at school and I loved writing. Well, I always wanted to write, but I never really it was just a want. And through COVID, I started I read a great book called The Artist's Way, which was almost about unblocking creative well, it was about unblocking creativity in any form. And I took some of the tips from that book and just started writing literally brain dumping every morning which I would suggest everyone does literally quietly 20 minutes first thing in the morning first thing I did was sit down and write whatever came into my head.
Kristjan Byfield: Wow.
Wendy Penfold: the most amazing ideas came out whether they were work related anything and if you don't know what to write you just literally write I don't know what to write but something you just this stuff just comes out of your head it's amazing anyway that kind of got me thinking that I really wanted to go back to write thinking about writing but um it was really telling stories to my granddaughter who I look after on a Friday
 
 

00:16:23

 
Wendy Penfold: or there was only one at that time um and I started telling her stories is and my daughter said, "Mom, you need to record these. They're really good." So, I recorded them on my WhatsApp and sent them to her so that they could listen, you know, they could be listened to again. And someone else said, "Does your mom make up the the names to these stories?" And Rachel said, "No, she writes them or she makes them up."
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: And they went, "Oh, they're really good." And it's kind of off the back of that um it's kind of grown its own thing, but it's just the most exciting thing and I, you know, I love it.
Kristjan Byfield: Brilliant.
Wendy Penfold: So, and they love my stories, so I keep doing them. So, yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah. I got to say I love I love I do stories pretty much every night with the kids. It's you know one thing I always make sure I'm home always make sure I'm I'm home in time for for dinner and bedtime.
 
 

00:17:20

 
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: Um and yeah that story time is is really precious and I it's um because obviously my my acting thing I don't necessarily make up stories does sometimes make me but I I do love going whole hog on on
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: voices and accents and all that stuff.
Wendy Penfold: Oh, I'm not so good on that. But um Oh, brilliant.
Kristjan Byfield: No, I can't quite get Haley coming, you're meant to be calming them down for bed like some Mexican bandido. Bandido like chili pepper. Yeah. Yeah. So, um No, that's awesome. I love that.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: I love that.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: I love stories of people regardless of age, but I think it's almost I think it's I think it's more interesting as people mature through their careers and stuff. I think this there's it's it's great to be picking up little, you know, these side projects, these things you've always wanted to scratch that itch or it's a new desire.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. Ready?
Kristjan Byfield: Whatever it is, I think anything that that keeps your like you said, creativity, anything that feeds your creativity in whatever outlet that is, whether it's writing, art, music, dance, you know, whatever, anything that that keeps that creativity going,
 
 

00:18:32

 
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: I think, is is really really good. And I think, you know, learning a new skill, whether it's, you know, writing a children's book or learning to ride a unicycle or how to do tricks with a yo-yo or anything like that, I think anything where your brain is learning new things, I think is is yeah, is generally really good. Really exciting. That's great. Well, that totally side hooked us at the start.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: Um, but no, great for that. So, excuse me. So, Peterman's so started, you said about 60 years ago.
Wendy Penfold: Um yeah, Peterman started over 60 years ago. Um uh my dad and uncle um had a separate separate business and they bought a property which needed managing in Hearn Hill and literally couldn't find anyone to manage it and as time went on kind of people came
Kristjan Byfield: Amazing.
Wendy Penfold: to them because they you know yeah same thing and they bought some more. So they basically started along the same parade of shops that we're in now at the chemist in the basement.
 
 

00:19:42

 
Wendy Penfold: And I remember going there when I was little and going down the stairs and there was them in their two little offices and eventually they kind of um got big enough and moved upstairs and now we've got these two offices, the one I'm in now which is like a conference room and the sales and lessons office which is next door. And that was kind of the beginning. Obviously they stopped doing the other thing and um wholeheartedly went into uh property development and letings and then you know the sales grew on the side of that um over time and we're still as I say we're still in the same place that they started I think 1962 they started um
Kristjan Byfield: Wow. I mean, it's a great little spot you've got because I mean, obviously I've seen your shop. We met many years ago. I think I came down for a little like there was some sort of local little festivaly thing going on. Another thing I was down with my wife Haley who runs um station hall which is the v the community venue literally right above Hill station um and yeah I think we came down for like a literature festival or
 
 

00:20:42

 
Wendy Penfold: Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: something and I think you guys had had your had your shop open for for some sort of I can't remember some sort of like big 3D map or something that had been built in your office I seem to remember and met you and Ben and Yeah, briefly.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: So, uh, yeah. No, it's it's it's really good. It's funny how you have these little connections. So, when you tell me, uh, obviously a business that started a in a very different time for agency, b for letings.
Wendy Penfold: Totally.
Kristjan Byfield: Wow.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: Totally. I mean, a different different millennium almost.
Wendy Penfold: Do what you want. Literally
Kristjan Byfield: although potentially stands you in goodstead for where we're going because it seem we seem to be heading in some respects back to that kind of a slightly different tenency structure. Um but what what's it been like for you coming through a family business? I mean did you to begin with did you feel obligated to be part of the Peterman's kind of empire or were you kind of naturally drawn to it because it was kind of happening all around you?
 
 

00:21:59

 
Wendy Penfold: Well, I I actually at the beginning definitely didn't want to be involved in it. So, I had a totally separate career in advertising. I had a flourishing career. I loved my job. Um, well, creative services.
Kristjan Byfield: on the creative side or more on the account management side.
Wendy Penfold: So, it was literally managing time and money.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: Um, and people's expectations. I was the middle person between the creatives and the account people.
Kristjan Byfield: Which in marketing and advert. My dad was an art director. I think you're I
Wendy Penfold: Oh, okay. I was the girl that got him his um bought him bought him his uh found him his people that he needed to use for illustration or photography or printing. So, yeah, I was that girl. And I loved it because it gave me a chance to input creatively. I got very involved on with the art directors. I was always trying to kind of understand what they want and help and so I did that for many years.
 
 

00:22:53

 
Wendy Penfold: I worked at SES had the best time in the 80s of Oh, really?
Kristjan Byfield: wonder if he were there at the same time. Dad was there with Sachi's early doors. He was he was there the very early doors with Sachi. Um and then where else was he? Because he worked on things like Morbra account. Um and uh oh god, what else? He uh John Deere, which was apparently big in those days.
Wendy Penfold: No, I think I was after I was the late 80. I was kind of uh 88. Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: Oh no. If you were late 80s, we were already Singapore then. So he then he was with a called Batties in Singapore then. He um worked on all the Singapore airlines stuff.
Wendy Penfold: Okay.
Kristjan Byfield: So he came up with all their corporate branding and all their all the uniforms the stewards used to wear and uh yeah very funny.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah, I actually did I actually did the another agency after that.
Kristjan Byfield: But no I
 
 

00:23:48

 
Wendy Penfold: I actually worked on Emirates and did the all the below the line stuff for Emirates. But anyway, so I I was there for many years. Then I left and um it basically I got very ill. It it was um and I almost died to um I couldn't go back to going. That sounds very dramatic. It's a long story. I won't go into it, but I was very very ill.
Kristjan Byfield: I'm not sure you can over dramatize nearly dying, but I love the way I love the way you fob that off like it was a bad cold. That sounds really dramatic.
Wendy Penfold: Well, it No, it was it was horrible.
Kristjan Byfield: I mean, it nearly died. It was It was dramatic.
Wendy Penfold: Um, and I couldn't work for three, four months.
Kristjan Byfield: Right.
Wendy Penfold: I certainly couldn't go back to that kind of um work.
Kristjan Byfield: And was it you think it was partly because of that that lifestyle because I know with that looking advertising was mental.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
 
 

00:24:38

 
Wendy Penfold: Yeah, it was.
Kristjan Byfield: I mean once you got into that run into a deadline of a campaign it was you know dad would disappear for days.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. Yeah. And you could and you couldn't go home. And I was I had two kids and I didn't see a lot of them at that time.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah. Yeah. And those were the days where you could go I've got children to go home to. I'll see you all tomorrow.
Wendy Penfold: No, they say you're fired.
Kristjan Byfield: They'll be like, "Yeah, don't come back in the morning. You
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: have a job anymore." Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: Um, and there were many times when I went home, put them to bed and went back to work and went home so that I was there when they got up in the morning. So, it it was listen, you lived in a weird advertising bubble in those days. It was like that was the real world.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah. And look, I don't there's still an element of that today.
 
 

00:25:21

 
Kristjan Byfield: I still, you know, I've got lots of friends who work in that field today. And I don't it's it's got a bit better because of everyone's a bit more forthright about how how they should be treated by an employer. But I mean, a lot of them ones I still see it's still that same like Christ, a week till the deadline, cancel all your plans, you're here until it's done.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: Um I think that's still that on the big stuff anyway. I think that that very of course
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. And I I was lucky to I worked on Castlemate Forex. I worked on Silka. I worked on the lottery, the first lottery ad. I worked on Castlemain Forex. It was a B. It was brilliant, but it obviously took its toll.
Kristjan Byfield: and they were great. That was that was that was the whole campaign of Australians wouldn't give a castle name forex for anything else, wasn't it?
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: It was the whole brilliant.
 
 

00:26:10

 
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. And I Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: I love an ad geek taglines and Oh, dad.
Wendy Penfold: And army be the best.
Kristjan Byfield: I mean, my dad would constantly, we'd just be constantly grilled. Anything we were watching, he's like, "What did you think of that? How did you like that? What did you like that? How would you change that?" You know, you'd come running down the stairs sometimes with different ideas like this one or this one, this one or, you know?
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. Oh, bless him. Brilliant. But anyway, so yeah, so I did that. I got I did eventually kind of conk out a bit. Um, and I couldn't go back to that kind of pressure.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: And dad had been saying to me, come into the business, come into the business, come into the business. And it I really eventually just thought, "Oh, I'm going to do this because what else? I don't actually know what else I'm going to do.
 
 

00:26:59

 
Wendy Penfold: If I can't work in advertising, which is literally all I've known, then what am I going to do?
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: I may as well go and do that." So,
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: that was how I started into it. And um it was it was so when I started, I'm gonna I just I came in here.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: I had I was I lost all my hair. Wasn't from chemo, but it was from my organs shutting down.
Kristjan Byfield: Jesus.
Wendy Penfold: So, I had a a wig on and I walked and I was really thin. I was about six stone because I've been so ill.
Kristjan Byfield: Oh my god.
Wendy Penfold: And um I walked in with no confidence whatsoever because I thought, "What the f*** am I do?" I don't sorry if I can't swear on this, but what the f*** am I doing here?
Kristjan Byfield: Jo, you can absolutely I think you always have that funny dynamic with a family business as well, right?
Wendy Penfold: And everyone looked at me. I didn't know anybody.
 
 

00:27:58

 
Wendy Penfold: And I looked around and I thought just just go through the motions.
Kristjan Byfield: You kind of feel like, oh, you know,
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. Yeah. So, I went through the motions for a few days and kind of just watched and listened and and and picked up bits bits and pieces and thought this isn't how I would do this if it was me. So, I had been used to setting up systems and I I ran the traffic department which was all project management and timing. So, I looked around and thought, "No, this is not how I would do it." So, I did go I did go back to um my dad and uncle and um Howard and say this this can I change things?
Kristjan Byfield: And how did how was that received at the
Wendy Penfold: Well, they were they were they weren't sure but off we went and we did we changed the staff, we changed the layout of the offices and we rebranded which obviously for me was marvelous. So then we had this agency that was different to what I'd walked into.
 
 

00:29:09

 
Kristjan Byfield: Plus you got to with rebranding. Nice. You know, still that creat
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. Yeah. We've rebranded again since then, but part of it, but we rebranded and um I hired some people that knew what they were doing because I was fine at all of that bit, but I didn't know anything about what estate agents do. It's like, you know, I didn't know about cold calling. I didn't know about door knockocking. I didn't know about door anything to do with anything. But luckily, the the letings team, most of them we kept and they were they knew what they were doing. And the sales I hired and property management I hired literally from the day I started. And those most of them are still with us.
Kristjan Byfield: Wow, that is a serious testament to to the business you guys run.
Wendy Penfold: So, I know we we've got a team that have been here a long time. Um, but I did look around at one point and think, well, this isn't actually that hard time.
 
 

00:30:04

 
Kristjan Byfield: That's That's huge.
Wendy Penfold: This isn't that hard. I can do this. It's all about time and money and managing expectations, which was what I did before. What's so hard about this? Um, so I like doing sales progression and all of the things that are naturally kind of that type of thing. But um yeah, it was just when I wanted to do things that were slightly out of the norm that we came to this point where no one wanted to do it.
Kristjan Byfield: loggerheads.
Wendy Penfold: So you know my dad and uncle Um, I chose my
Kristjan Byfield: Did you kind of stop or did you was was that kind of the point? You had to kind of get to this crux where you either kind of gave up and walked away or you had to kind of smash through walls and be like, "Well, don't I feel feel that strongly about it? We're going Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: I chose my arguments basically.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: There were things that obviously I had to compromise on and then there were things that were that I felt strongly enough about that it was like no, we really need to do this.
 
 

00:31:15

 
Wendy Penfold: We need to do this to to move on. Um, and
Kristjan Byfield: But I think that's good of any of you know family or not you know I mean this sounds a lot like me and an you know I mean I'm the ideas person I'm the creative person I take a lot of ideas to an um they absolutely don't all happen um but I think you know she will really she's by her own admission she's a glass half empty kind of person so anything new it's like okay well
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: you prove to me why it's better or prove to me why it's worth taking or you know and I think it it's great because you know through that process I've I've taken ideas to her and she's been like
Wendy Penfold: What?
Kristjan Byfield: right come back to me with XY Z and I go away and I I you know I do the research I crunch the numbers and I come back to her and go leave it for now.
Wendy Penfold: I didn't quite get that. My my response wasn't quite as positive as an to you.
 
 

00:32:15

 
Wendy Penfold: Maybe because they were a generation older and because I was the one one it was my dad and this was and this was and even now still is.
Kristjan Byfield: And then it's your dad.
Wendy Penfold: Bless him he's 93 years old sadly my uncle isn't with us anymore but was with us until two three years ago and both of them were and my dad still is very vocal about the business.
Kristjan Byfield: I remember you telling me not that long ago your dad just rock up at one of your office kind of start saying why is this here and what are you doing and send you messages like what's
Wendy Penfold: He's he doesn't rock up anymore, but I literally I get the messages. Um, but I think for me the hardest part was one, he was my dad, and two, I was the newest member of the team, and three, I was a woman.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was I was going to lead on to that because I did want to ask whether you felt that added an extra layer of challenging
 
 

00:33:19

 
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. Yeah. And it still does to one degree or another. We will uh Dad and I will talk about something. Howard and I, my cousin and I, we're the same age. We have a fantastic relationship. We are very good for each other. We balance each other out. Um, but if I'm talking to dad and he says, "Right, well, what do you think we should do about blah blah?" I say to him, "Well, I think we this is what we're going to do, blah, blah, blah." And he goes, "Well, we'll talk to Howard and see what Howard thinks." And I'm like, "No, what the f*** are you going to I know what Howard thinks because I've actually spoken to him because we talk every day."
Kristjan Byfield: No. Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: But it's that whole thing of deferring which really actually does is it's really annoying, right?
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah. Yeah. If if the question if he was having that conversation with Howard, would he turn around and go, "Oh, well by Wendy first."
 
 

00:34:13

 
Wendy Penfold: No, he won't ever say to Howard, "Oh, let's check with Wendy what Wendy thinks." So that and I know part of that is because he's my dad, but I think part of it is that he underestimates me because I'm a woman and it really pisses me off a lot.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: Um, and it and it does undermine me. I mean we've had it in all sorts of over the years in a variety of instances whether it be just running this office or other and you do actually end up feeling quite and I've undermined and I have told him how I felt um and he's tried hard to change but you know it's a bit hard now he's 93 he's not going to change now.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah, it's tricky. I mean, we talking before our dad's actually very similar ages. My my my one my one is is is chasing yours and mine turns 93 uh just before Christmas. Um yeah, I mean I've I've had some fascinating conversations with my mom the last kind of my my parents separated years ago when I was 16. Um so nearly 30 years ago.
 
 

00:35:23

 
Kristjan Byfield: Um but my parents lived a weird and wonderful life traveling around a lot a lot because of dad's career. I mean he was to say that that I mean that man followed his dreams but he followed them on a whim. Uh, and what I mean by that is like he would he would come home from work one day and he would just say to mom, "Right, I've been offered a job with the CBS, the Canadian Broadcasting Service. Uh, starts next month. Um, start planning." You know, um, and you know, hearing these stories of how mom would just, this was before they had kids, um, I think she was pregnant with my my brother who's now 61. Um, and she was just expected to literally just pick up and move. And literally, I think one of her stories was I think like pretty much the day they arrived. My dad was also a fanatical cricket person. Loves watching it. Love playing it even more. Would have been a professional cricketer if his dad had let him.
 
 

00:36:24

 
Kristjan Byfield: But as his as his dad rightly said back then, that was back in the days when professional cricket got paid.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: So his dad was like, "Absolutely not." Um, but yeah, my dad was a fanatic to the point where I think like the day they arrived in Canada or the day they or the day after they arrived in Canada, having moved there to start their new life, dad literally turned around, pulled his cricket bag out the cupboard and was like, "I'm off on a on a cricket tour, darling. I'll
Wendy Penfold: Oh my god.
Kristjan Byfield: see you in like 10 days time." Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: What?
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah. Um, and it wasn't the only time they did that, you know. He they they did Canada for a few years, came back about 10 years later he got offered an amazing job uh in Australia and again was like we're moving to Australia like literally would just inform mom would just
Wendy Penfold: Wow.
Kristjan Byfield: you know equally I mean mom mom would mom would kind of go along with it.
 
 

00:37:16

 
Kristjan Byfield: I mean Australia was a classic one because that was uh late 60s early 70s so before I was born. I mean, Australia isn't necessarily known as being the most culturally forward English speakaking nation at the best of times.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: Uh, we can imagine late 60s, early 70s, quite a bit behind where they are now.
Wendy Penfold: Yes. Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: My mom is not a softly spoken softly spoken woman. Um, yeah, she lasted about a year in Australia. She literally turned around to dad one day and was like, I'm not taking any more of this s***. like I'm going back to England. The kids are coming with me. You do what the f*** you want, but we're out of here.
Wendy Penfold: Wow.
Kristjan Byfield: Um, but yeah, but I mean, it's been fascinating talking to mom the last the last few years because again, obviously as you, you know, as you mature, you reframe, you see your parents, right? You see them as a kid, you idolize them, and then you start to become an adult.
 
 

00:38:09

 
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: And you know obviously another big thing is you become a parent, you have kids and all all of sudden you're like my parents did what?
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: Um but yeah, it's been fascinating talking to the last few years these these stories that have come out and it's it's so funny because she talks about them and then she kind of she kind of justifies some of my dad's behavior because I'm like sorry he did what? And she's like, "Oh, different times, darling. Different times." And I'm like, "Yeah, I don't know. Different times buys you a little bit of leeway." But, you know, I mean, shocking things like my my dad never changed a single nappy with all three of us. We've got three kids. Never, not once. Not Not one emergency change. And I'm just like, how how is that possible? I just sit there today and I'm just like I don't Yeah. Anyway, we're we're definitely straying quite a bit away from agency here, but I find but but I love I love this thing about I mean, you know, we we've been huge supporters of the women in the state agency
 
 

00:39:15

 
Wendy Penfold: Oh yeah, sorry. Yeah, but really interesting. Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: movement. Obviously, you know, I find this whole conversation fascinating because, you know, I chose an as a business partner 22 years ago. At no point was there at no point in my mind was there ever a point of debate or conversation which was that she's a woman or the fact she's gay.
Wendy Penfold: No, but why should there be I mean this is my whole there shouldn't be because it doesn't matter what you are you could be anything if you've got the right you know you've got the tools to do the
Kristjan Byfield: No 50 years.
Wendy Penfold: job it should make no I mean you know I read on um one of the groups that it was only however long ago I can't remember now that women were um allowed to have a mortgage 50 years since
Kristjan Byfield: It's only 50 years. I think when you have to have a code signature from like your husband or your dad, it's it's f****** you realize how recent all this stuff really is.
 
 

00:40:09

 
Wendy Penfold: women I mean seriously it is ridiculous and I do think yes good yeah I mean you know I I'm absolutely um you know one for kind of what I I just believe that it doesn't make any difference what sex you are. You just need to be treated equally. Uh sadly that seems to mean that if you're a woman, you have to work much harder at being treated equally.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: So, you know, and from my point of view, yeah, I've I've seen it and I I look back at even my previous career where in those days if you wanted to get something done from one of the art directors, if you needed to get sign off for something because your time had run out and you thought, "Oh, for God's sake, I've got to get them to approve this block." You'd put a minikrt on and bloody dillydally into the office.
Kristjan Byfield: Fresh color lipstick and Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: lippy on and smoo them into I mean you know serious what but that was the then I mean you know now I put on a pair of bloody hog nail boots and kick him up the bum to do
 
 

00:41:20

 
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah. Isn't it? Is it a hard hat on walking in the club?
Wendy Penfold: it but it but I think we do have to you know as women we do have to work harder at being taken seriously and um it is changing don't get me We all
Kristjan Byfield: Oh, for absolutely sure. I mean, I I've been in teen rooms where either it's businesses I've worked in or conferences, you know, in our industry or whatever, where, you know, a woman will say something and it gets glossed over, ignored, and then a man will repeat what that woman's just said, you know, and then the whole, you know, oh, bravo.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. It's like I just said that. Exactly.
Kristjan Byfield: Well done, Charles.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: f*** off. Sarah said it half an hour ago.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: Lord,
Wendy Penfold: You should have been listening. You toss. Yes. Exactly. So um so there is a bit of that but in general certainly now so it was it was quite difficult kind of then I mean now obviously you know dad's dad's older Sydney isn't here sadly.
 
 

00:42:31

 
Wendy Penfold: Um and so it's a much easier kind of um runin. Uh yeah, but um
Kristjan Byfield: how How do you feel, if at all that kind of shaped how you were with with women within the business? I don't think, and I'm not saying it had to necessarily be something conscious. it wasn't you know but do are you aware of like I said any kind of I don't know kind of safeguards maybe isn't the right kind of place but having kind of experienced that was there is there anything you've kind of conscious consciously or even subconsciously been like you know with regards women in our business you know I'm going to make sure that that this never happens or that they always feel supported or listened to or valued or
Wendy Penfold: Um, so right in the early days, really early days before we had CRM even, I I went on a viewing. It was one of I went on a viewing, some guy phoned, wanted me to go and value his house. It was only down the road. I forgot to write in the diary because right off I trotted down there.
 
 

00:43:55

 
Kristjan Byfield: Oh s***.
Wendy Penfold: Um I think I told Paul where I was going but just I you know I went down there, walked in and the door shut behind me and I thought seriously what am I doing?
Kristjan Byfield: Something's not right.
Wendy Penfold: And I and a guy came I met the one I met a guy at the door who seemed very nice. After the front door had shut another guy a big guy came down the stairs and I thought oh my I literally shut myself. I did and I then I thought what am I going to do? Oh my god. You know Susie Lamplot that had you know it was all of that and I as it happened nothing happened and they were really nice.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: I was petrified the whole time I was there. I couldn't get out of the house and I literally ran back to the office and thought that is never happening to anyone again.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: Um and we did put safeguards. We still have them different ones obviously now.
 
 

00:45:01

 
Wendy Penfold: Um but it was one of the scariest things that had happened to me. It I I was so frightened. So I I work hard with all the staff and that's the guys as well because it's not just women these things happen to.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: Um we we're very aware we all know where each other are going. We phone each other after if we've been any a length of time that is we feel is too long. We will phone and the person who is out knows they have to answer. If they don't answer we go there.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: So, you know, um um but across the industry, I see a lot of women in positions such as property managers. I see women as letting negotiators or sales negotiators, even branch managers, but not so many. And then, hey, where are the women? Where are the women up the tree? And that's what I believe. That's what we need to work out. You know, I think that across this industry, there's still a bit of that, oh well, we'll keep them at that level because they're only going to leave and have babies.
 
 

00:46:21

 
Wendy Penfold: And I still think there's a bit of that kind of mindset within the Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: I think there's absolutely a bit of that. I think there's also there is also um you know this kind of well doumented fact that gets talked about a lot of you know a guy will look at a job role and go oh I've got tw I know 20% of what that job requires. I can probably do it. I'll have a crack.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. Wing it.
Kristjan Byfield: will look at the same job profile and we'll have 80% of the skill set and we'll go oh but I don't I don't have that 20%.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: Um, and I think there's there's a, you know, that that default psychology of, yeah, kind of, you know, screw it, just do it. Just go for it, figure it out. You know, I think um well, it comes back to a lot of what you touched on. You know, you you you felt very vulnerable and exposed to a certain extent and you didn't want to, you know, we've all got those insecurities.
 
 

00:47:17

 
Kristjan Byfield: We've all already got those, you know, whatever you want to whatever you want to whatever kind of handle you want to put on it. Um, but we've already got those as a default kind of level anyway. And then layer that on top of it. And particularly if you're one of the few senior women within a company, again, I think that comes with even more pressure because you've got, you know, like you've got guys waiting for you to fail.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: you feel like you've got other women within the business hoping for you to kind of lead the way and and you know roll out the ladder.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: Um and yeah, that comes with a lot of its own pressures, but yeah, I think um I mean we've had I've had conversations about this in in various different rooms and fields and situations, but I think it's it's definitely about lifting one another up, right? And I think
Wendy Penfold: Oh, absolutely. And that's why women in estate agency as a as a whole, you know, we've got a fantastic Facebook page which is so supportive to women and you know anyone that puts anything on there, they get so many responses, helpful responses, any questions get on.
 
 

00:48:26

 
Wendy Penfold: It's just a brilliant brilliant website.
Kristjan Byfield: And I know the group's been really helpful for a lot of women as well.
Wendy Penfold: Um yeah I mean that's yes because it's but it's just that the whole fact everything that they do you know they're doing they run leadership well you know what they do they run leadership courses that all of the it's about being seen and appreciated but also respected in the field in our field and I think they go a long way to help that I'm promoting.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's it's it's fascinating. It's it's it's Yeah. It's reshaping people's minds, isn't it? Like I said, I mean like with an there was never at never at any point was there ever a question over the fact that she was a woman, the fact that she was in a gay relationship, um the fact that she was a jolly foreigner, you know, you know, none of those three things um ever ever were ever remotely a consideration for me.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
 
 

00:49:31

 
Kristjan Byfield: And I think that's partly to do with the way we were raised. I mean, my mom was No, no.
Wendy Penfold: I was just say you're kind of a bit of a one of a kind. You're not the norm in inverted commas or you know
Kristjan Byfield: And I think, you know, we we we travel a lot. My mom was always very My mom was an amazing person with friends. She would make friends with anyone and everyone from a homeless person on the street to I remember we lived in Singapore. She was she was best mates with the ex-sultan of Malaysia. The exult the ex-sultan's wife I don't know a sultaness the ex sultan's wife because a sultan had passed.
Wendy Penfold: Wow.
Kristjan Byfield: But yeah you know we would we would go to kind of street celebrations with um in Singapore and Asia it's very common you would have what are called armors which are kind of like househel basically. It sounds super posh. It was it was kind of the norm back then. Um, but we would equally we would go and do street parties and family weddings with with them and equally, you know, we would go and wander around the ex Sultan's house and I'd get a tour of their 12 garages of cars or, you know, so but um and but equally also we had some outrageously gay friends as well.
 
 

00:50:39

 
Wendy Penfold: Wow.
Kristjan Byfield: My mom my mom never gave a s*** about what anyone thought about anyone. If she liked someone, she liked them and that was it.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: Once you were in her her kind of her clutches, her loving clutches, that was it, you know, and below anyone who would say anything bad about you. So, yeah, I think I was always raised um with that side. And I think, you know, potentially a little bit of that got squeezed out with boarding school being what it was, being very posh and privileged and um but there was still very much a multicultural element to that side of things as well.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: So, but yeah, I find it I find it I still find the whole woman thing fascinating, right? Because we've all we've definitely all got a mother even if they're not around anymore, you know. for that fact. And I love that story because they list off a load of a load of famous pe men who've achieved things and it's like what what's the one thing if you took away that would stop them achieving anything?
 
 

00:51:46

 
Kristjan Byfield: And the simple answer is women. Um which I think is brilliant. Um but um but yeah, it's um yeah, it's it's it's I I just find it fascinating. I find it fascinating that, you know, women are 51% of the population. Like I said, we've all got or had a mother and then most of us will have a partner, a wife or a daughter or a cousin or a sister or something. Um, for me I I still find that imbalance buildering on the basis that you've got most people have a woman they are related to in some some aspect and the fact that you would treat or mistreat or
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. What? Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: dismiss or disadvantage, you know, f****** Weird, isn't it?
Wendy Penfold: Well, it's more that Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's it's kind going back to it's like being in Victorian times. I mean, it really is because you think Queen Victoria was probably one of the most successful queens we've ever had and Queen Elizabeth for that matter, the first and the second.
 
 

00:52:43

 
Kristjan Byfield: It's Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: And they were women, but you know, and they're talked about as being really, you know, successful as a, you know, as the queen, as the reigning per, you know, you hear more about those three than you hear about
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: any of the kings apart from Henry VII, who just shagged everyone and chopped their heads off. And actually, if you look at that, you just think from a woman's point of view, it's like, oh, that's like the real world.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah. Yeah. I I think I I don't think it was this year's conference. I think it was last year's conference. I I shared like I got these like stories of women through the years. And one thing that was fascinating about that, I shared some of them. And some of these stories went back like 500 years.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: Five, six, seven, 800 years. same f****** battles you guys have been having for like a millennia and like you know all these incredible women from every different walk of life.
 
 

00:53:42

 
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: El's got we bought Elby some of these amazing books. It's kind of like I think one is like you know badass women from history or something like that and it's everything from like supermodels to you know human rights campaigners to leaders of African tribes to you everything everything from business and science through to um yeah but you know that and like I said reading reading that that book of stories that I shared a few stories of a while back it it just nothing has really changed.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. There is
Kristjan Byfield: And it's so weird. It's so weird that so much in society's changed. So much uh of how we live and techn technologically and all that sort of stuff. Our standards of life and to a certain extent opportunity. But then there are still those same old barriers, those same old belief systems, those same
Wendy Penfold: Yeah, I I I think we've almost got one more generation to go before things are totally are different. So, I look at um my husband for instance, right?
 
 

00:54:58

 
Wendy Penfold: He's in his early 70s, but he grew up he grew up in an environment where very much the women stayed at home and all that.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah. Raise the kids, man. The home. Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. And um the men went out to work and the women weren't allowed to have a comment about any I'm not He is not like that.
Kristjan Byfield: No, I don't I don't imagine he would have lived long if he was when I've met you.
Wendy Penfold: But well, you've met you've met No, he really wouldn't. And you've met him. Um but He still has this thing that he'll watch sports com he loves sports so he watches football he hates women commentators or it's
Kristjan Byfield: That's all I need to know on that one. See, this is a weird thing.
Wendy Penfold: this right or and he'll go it's not that I'm sexist it's a bit like it's not that I'm racist sexist I believe in women doing a just don't like and it's like but she's I mean some of them
 
 

00:55:46

 
Kristjan Byfield: This is a weird thing. I'm not racist, but f*** off.
Wendy Penfold: I hate because I actually don't like their voices and they really get on my nerves but some of them are really good and I think it's his generation is like the last generation of that because I look at
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah. Well, yeah.
Wendy Penfold: how I've raised my kids and I look at my kids with their kids and that everything's equal literally at home everything's equal.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: No one does it. They don't have jobs that are women jobs and men jobs. They both cook. They both clean. They both go to work. They both And I think that kind of age of like 70 up are the remnants of that kind of old way of thinking.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah, I mean we say that when I I sometimes being optimistic, you know, because then equally you also see in social media this other kind of swing back the other way.
Wendy Penfold: I hope I hope Oh, no.
Kristjan Byfield: This kind of like let's hark back to traditional values.
 
 

00:56:59

 
Kristjan Byfield: f*** off.
Wendy Penfold: No. No. That was a journey.
Kristjan Byfield: You know that Anyway, well, that was I I really enjoyed that. We we kind of went on a little um there. No, no, no. It's it's I like the fact that we kind of stumbled onto that as as we went rather than rather than seeking it out as a as a topic from the offset. I mean it's look I still think um I still personally feel that men have a huge responsibility within that change not not not necessarily to to to make the change happen but just to make sure that the opportunities
Wendy Penfold: Absolutely.
Kristjan Byfield: there um and and step away from your own biases.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: I think um yeah and I it's it's fascinating actually how how sometimes how easy it is how easy it is to fall into those default patterns but also how easy it is to turn around um you know I don't I don't think anyone well I won't name it specifically but I I'm involved with a board um and a couple of years ago we made the decision that it was it would be good to make the board bigger to expand the board by about 50% event.
 
 

00:58:15

 
Kristjan Byfield: Um, and as that conversation came up and we started talking it around the table and we went round the table, which was predominantly men. I think it was six or seven of us and I think there was maybe one woman at the table. Um, and we went round the table. It was like, "Oh, does anyone know anyone who you think would be good to join?" And no no no f****** surprise, we went around the table and everyone, including the women sat at the table, offered male only names.
Wendy Penfold: Why? Oh, yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: Um, but it was fascinating that, you know, it kind of got to that and it got round to me. Um, and I just went with the greatest of respect, I think we've got enough dicks around this table.
Wendy Penfold: Yes.
Kristjan Byfield: Um, which everyone took in the spirit it was meant. Everyone had a chuckle. We all had a laugh. No one felt like they were being um morally apprehended or or or you know scolded for what they'd done.
 
 

00:59:20

 
Kristjan Byfield: Uh but just saying that and a quick little laugh I mean very quickly went around the table and instantly everyone around the table offered one or two names one two three names.
Wendy Penfold: But it didn't come naturally, did it?
Kristjan Byfield: Exactly. And this is so I think as guys we still we don't we don't we don't we don't have to be the change per se.
Wendy Penfold: That's
Kristjan Byfield: Uh but I think we just we have a responsibility to all this s*** out you know and you know we talked earlier about women suggesting thing in a meeting or at a conference or whatever and it kind of gets skipped over and then a man very similar point.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah, absolutely.
Kristjan Byfield: If you see or hear that happening, call that s*** out. You know, and and again, it doesn't have to be aggressive. It doesn't You don't have to berate or belittle someone.
Wendy Penfold: No, you could do as you said. Yeah, they said that that's already been mentioned by blah blah.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: That's all you you know
 
 

01:00:16

 
Kristjan Byfield: You can do it with humor. You can do it with, you know, however you want to do it. It doesn't have to be militant and and and aggressive. Um, but I think yeah, we do still have a responsibility. So, look, there's a there's a couple of other things we want to talk about and I'm very much aware we are we are very quickly running out of time. We've done some good waffling. So, this is good. Um, so I very quickly we we'll have to skip over these two. So, we we might have to do Wendy part two in the future and we'll dive in in more detail.
Wendy Penfold: Okay.
Kristjan Byfield: So, one thing I wanted to talk to you was um a challenge I know we've come across with Bass and I and I know talking to other agents similarly within smaller independent organizations and I think excuse me I
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: think a family business brings another layer to this kind of dynamic but I know one of the things we've struggled with with some of our team that's why it's amazing to hear that you've had staff stay with you guys so long which is phenomenal because I think the average reading the other day, I think the average is something like 17 months.
 
 

01:01:17

 
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. Really?
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah, it's I it blew my mind the other day.
Wendy Penfold: One.
Kristjan Byfield: I think it was um Raina Personnel I think put out a stat and I'm sure because they doing they they've done quite a bit recently about kind of struggling to get young people in and and you know making
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: the industry attractive and it was talking about um um yeah a lot of young people I don't know if that was a stat specifically related to kind of younger people I don't know under 30s or whatever but it's about 17 months is a typical thing I remember reading that and thinking oh you know we kind of average probably more like four or five years. So happy with that. But I know so I'm waffling my way to this question. I'm for for a talk that needs to move quickly. I'm doing a very good job of getting we've run into this thing where we get people they get beded in, they love the business, love the culture, kind of get to a certain point, but then they feel because it's an independently owned business, you know, you've got media at the top and then there's the rest of business.
 
 

01:02:17

 
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: um there is a perception whe well whether it's a perception or a reality um either way I suppose it's kind of that thing if you think it it's true um that there isn't there there's a there's a limit to how far they can go within the business and for those that are career-minded for those that are looking to kind of keep building keep growing um they feel like they reach a certain point with us they go
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: do you know I've loved the journey, guys. Um, that's how long I've been talking. Both of my spotlights have just failed on me. Um, but um, yeah, there's that there's that perception of there being a ceiling. Uh, because with us, it's, you know, me and Ann as business partners, with you guys, if you if your name's not Peterman, um, how is that something you guys have experienced?
Wendy Penfold: here.
Kristjan Byfield: How how do you guys kind of tackle that?
Wendy Penfold: We have been very lucky that some of the staff are happy.
 
 

01:03:24

 
Wendy Penfold: I mean obviously they've been here on this time so we haven't had that but we have in the past had members of staff that have come up to us after however long and said we don't feel that there's anywhere to go what can we do you know we love working here but and what and and there isn't we we run quite a flat structure so we aren't a hierarchy we actually don't even have branch managers so
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: it's literally me, Ben, and Howard and everyone else, and everyone's the same. So, what we have tried to do, and you know, you can talk to Ben about what he's done in that instance.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: Um, but what we've done is try to expand into other areas that they're interested in. So, we can't say you can be fine, you know, we'll give you a three-year plan and by the time three years is up, you can be a director or something because they can't be.
Kristjan Byfield: I come. Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: It the company is not structured like that at all.
 
 

01:04:33

 
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: Um, but what we do try and do is find them other avenues that they can push into that will give them a feeling of ownership. So you know we'll look towards for instance new builds or land or and say right you go and do that that's your baby go and do right and and that's the way we try and incentivize them and motivate
Kristjan Byfield: tomorrow.
Wendy Penfold: them because there's no point promising something you can't give and and they know they're not stupid obviously otherwise they wouldn't work here um or I wouldn't have hired them to work here.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: They know there isn't anywhere there isn't anywhere to go is it's not like we can pretend that they can go somewhere because they can't.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: So it's what else can we do? We are we give them as much as we can give them in terms of benefits, in terms of time, in terms of they know that we are a company that whatever they need. If we can facilitate it within our remit kind of thing, they know we will.
 
 

01:05:43

 
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: We had, you know, we had one guy that had a severe kidney problem. He was on diialysis. It was all taken. we sent him to a private doctor.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: You know, we'll do all the things that we can do if they've got child care issues.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: It's never a So, I think they then balance their own kind of ambition against what they get working here.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: And I think kind of um in terms of a a a caring company, that's what they get.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah. Yeah, and I think that that aligns with a lot of, you know, interestingly with a lot of what Ann and I, you know, have done and do here. You know, I think one of our guiding principles when we started base was, you know, we had a very clear vision of what we wanted to do for clients and customers. But for staff, you know, we always said we wanted to build the business that we wished we worked for, supported, um, valued, you know, um, yeah, all those sorts of things.
 
 

01:06:35

 
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: And it's really interesting you say about the about the kind of side tangents because over the years we've had we've had a couple of staff come to us like you said with that kind of conversation point and like you said leaning a certain way and it's really interesting because it hasn't worked out but we kind of defaulted to where I kind of defaulted to where you were which was okay cool what would that look like you
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: know go off you know fine go and do some research start figuring out what this looks like can come come back to me. And I think interestingly with our one so far that kind of never really got past that stage and that kind of was was kind of selfdeciding in that and again I think sometimes as members of staff they you
Wendy Penfold: Same. Nothing.
Kristjan Byfield: know they work within a generally harmonious generally successful business. That's not to say you have you don't have your good or bad times, but a lot of what we do as owners and directors is although we sit in the office dayto day with our stuff, right, there's there's a lot hidden.
 
 

01:07:44

 
Kristjan Byfield: There's a lot that going on that they don't see.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah, absolutely.
Kristjan Byfield: You know, they see you sat at the computer, but they have no overview of exactly what it is, you know, that you're juggling.
Wendy Penfold: I mean, I kind of I woke it's funny that we're talking about this because I woke up this I know we I need to go fast.
Kristjan Byfield: Um, They're not they're not often those days, but but
Wendy Penfold: Um I woke up this morning and thought I really don't want to go to work today. I just don't. They're not. But sometimes you just get one. I've had a anyway some personal things and I just thought oh you know what I just need a day to myself but in the I got up I came to work normal self blah blah blah you know Mrs.
Kristjan Byfield: yeah,
Wendy Penfold: happy. And I just think they're the bits that if they don't want to come to work, they won't come to work. There's no I mean, I'm very lucky my staff do not take loads of sick days, but in general, if there was a reason for them not to come, they would just not come.
 
 

01:08:47

 
Wendy Penfold: They don't see this like I in my own head, I had the conversation, well, you could always take the day off. You know, why not?
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: It's like, no, I can't. I need to be there. I've got this. I need to do that and all the responsibilities and and you you you carry them around with you and people don't you know members of staff have no idea what goes you know you don't you look at your bottom line and then you think this or you think about cash flow or whatever it might be they're the things that you're constantly reviewing and worrying about or you know and and I think until and they have they
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: don't realize. So
Kristjan Byfield: No. And I think also, you know, we have to remind our we, you know, we've we've had a couple of nothing major, but a couple of minor incidents recently. I mean, a little something resurfaced from me about I don't know two years ago raising my my voice with the team at one point.
 
 

01:09:46

 
Kristjan Byfield: Um, uh, and it was actually my reaction at the time had nothing to do with work. It had everything to do both mom and dad were super ill at the time.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah, you have it.
Kristjan Byfield: and it looked very likely we were going to lose them both. Obviously, I hadn't said that anything to the team, but doesn't change anything. You don't need that burden. I don't want I I've never been one of those I don't want to walk in every morning and go, "Are you okay?" Yeah. f*** off. I'm fine. Um but, um it was really interesting about a couple of years ago, there was, you know, some silly little thing going on in the office. I think it was, you know, the guys were deciding how to split the Christmas hampers between them and I just I just f****** lost it. I was just like, "What the f***?"
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: And it was it was really interesting because I very quickly got a telling off from the team being like, "You can't talk to us like that. You
 
 

01:10:47

 
Kristjan Byfield: can't, you know, blah blah blah." Um but what was really interesting was you know we we've never been afraid of admitting our own mistakes. So I think very next day I came into the office and I was like guys apologies yesterday was not how I'd like to handle myself. There's one particular member of staff who had taken particular offense to it who I took aside and was like look private chat you know if you want to really know what's what. Nothing to do with you, nothing to do with the team.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: This is what I've got going on in my personal life right now. Oh, you never said anything. No, I didn't say anything.
Wendy Penfold: No, exactly.
Kristjan Byfield: I didn't.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: But in the same way that when you guys come in and you're normally of a generally bright and proactive demeanor and you come in at some point and you've got a face like thunder or you're quiet or, you know, whatever your reaction is to personal stress.
 
 

01:11:40

 
Kristjan Byfield: In the same way that we give you guys a little bit of space and we check in and like are you are you okay? You know, you you don't seem as productive or you seem a little bit disengaged or you're a bit quiet or whatever. I was like in the same way that we afford you sensitivity. We're the same as you guys. We we we still go through s***. We are still perfectly fallible. We still deal with stuff, you know. We're also allowed to make mistakes. we're allowed to f****** once in a while um as long as we kind of own it and apologize for it.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: But what you know what's really fascinating is yeah that that felt need to be explained it then but it actually came to light recently in a recent meeting that person was still holding on to that event you know
Wendy Penfold: Wow.
Kristjan Byfield: so it's it's it's interesting this this kind of dichotomy of where the business is going and it's really interesting that chat we had about keeping people motivated because that was something that came up in our chat was our
 
 

01:12:32

 
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: team was feeling a bit a bit stagnant a bit kind of yeah, you know, wanting that that next opportunity. And it was interesting because I was a bit like, well, you know, it's it's not really our job to find you guys those opportunities in terms of, you know, we've got a great business. You've got very supportive bosses.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: You know, we've said to you guys repeatedly, you might try a new process.
Wendy Penfold: Go ahead.
Kristjan Byfield: You find a new product that you think our business will love. There's a different arm to the business.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: and we're chatting more about the social thing and interesting earlier this year had a member of our staff have a very similar kind of conversation around that um and our kind of position which which we've kind of questioned
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: and battle with but recent conversations I have with several people and this one with you has kind of validated the fact that I think we've you know we've taken the right kind of position which is look we'll support you but you've got to take the initiative it's not for us to plot your career path.
 
 

01:13:42

 
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: It's not for us to go, you know, we'll give you the belief I think you can achieve this, but you know, and we'll pay to train you. We'll pay to put you on a course. We'll, you know, sit down and work through businesses or whatever it is. But yeah, we feel like, you know, there comes a time where you you really want to step your career up past a certain level, regardless of whether that's whether that's in a corporate structure, an independent or or striving out on your own, there's going to need to be an element of impetus and and self-drive.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah, self drive. Yeah, that's exactly the word I was thinking.
Kristjan Byfield: And um yeah, so yeah, since that we've just around there.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: So when I think we we're gonna wrap up there. We we had intended to have a little chat about AI, but um I think this has been so much fun. We're gonna we'll schedule another one and we'll get around to the bits that that we haven't talked about.
 
 

01:14:40

 
Wendy Penfold: That's been brilliant.
Kristjan Byfield: I've absolutely loved our time today.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah, me too.
Kristjan Byfield: Love that we uh stumbled and fumbled around on on quite a few really lovely topics and yeah I think hopefully got a few bits for people to kick around and and really interested to see how some of our talk goes about. I mean there's you know I think the fascinating thing with agency despite public perception is you know 80% of industry at the moment of our industry is still independents one to three large businesses.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: I think we are seeing a shift in that. I think that will change over the next next decade or so and particularly driven by um one of the things we've just touched on or mentioned AI. Um but I think a lot of people I think there's some interesting bits there about culture and progress and and also attitudes to um not just women but you know anyone within your business and how you how you
Wendy Penfold: Yeah, we're good.
Kristjan Byfield: perceive that. So, I'm I'm fascinated to see how people engage with this one, but I have had an absolute whale of a time.
 
 

01:15:43

 
Kristjan Byfield: D, thank you for your time today. I hope this is is is lifted your spirits a little bit from from not wanting to go into the office. I hope this is just a week ago.
Wendy Penfold: Uh, no. I was fine when I got here. It It was just um I actually got some really bad that this is nothing to do. I got some really really sad news this weekend that a very good friend of mine has got two weeks to live and it was like f****** hell. Yeah, my aunt died. Um Howard's mom. So, but she was 82 89. Sorry. She was me 90 in September and I she'd not been good. You you know at this guy he's 72 years old. He's the same age as Ron for God's sake. He and he is one of Ron's really good friends. And it literally it has knocked me sideways.
Kristjan Byfield: Jesus.
Wendy Penfold: It really has. Um yeah. So it was like one of those today I just like oh I think I need to go in a corner and cry or something.
 
 

01:16:43

 
Wendy Penfold: But anyway, I'm not and I'm going to get on and if Marian isn't crying, his wife, then I definitely don't have the right to cry. So, I'll um yeah, get on with it. But
Kristjan Byfield: And that's sometimes it isn't it? I mean I I didn't have anything like that justification but similly this morning you know we've just finished our holidays with the kids and although I worked Friday basically had kind of the last two weeks off but it's always that you know particularly kids have still got three weeks of holiday. So knowing that that they're home knocking around and Mrs. is juggling something between having fun and not being tormented by them. Yeah. Yeah. I got to say this morning as well, you know. Yeah. It wasn't It definitely wasn't a dread, but it was like, oh, I could definitely just Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: One more day. Yes, that's Well, I hope I've cheered you up then.
Kristjan Byfield: One more day. Just one more day on the sofa just just doing cuddles and playing computer games would have would have definitely gone down a treat.
 
 

01:17:39

 
Kristjan Byfield: Well, likewise. I I've had I've had an absolute whale of a time and um yeah, we'll do another one of these and we'll get round to some of the other bits that we didn't get around to.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah, I do want to talk to you about your AI because do you is your AI you do AI with tenants?
Kristjan Byfield: But um yeah, thanks for your time, darling. Have a fantastic day.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah, that whole thing.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah. So, yeah, so we do we do a few bit. So, so we we use a few products kind of we as a business we mainly leverage it for marketing at the moment within base. Um and then but depository, yeah, we're doing we're doing three really focused things. So we we've done our first one which is um basically like a negotiation assistant for one once you interact with the tenant if they're not happy with your proposals and they they come back um it basically helps you uh with responses. Um but yeah, we we yeah I can't really touch on it lightly because we'll just we'll just go down a rabbit hole.
 
 

01:18:35

 
Wendy Penfold: Well, we'll have to do a catch up.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah. Yeah, we'll have a proper chat. But I know we was it was one thing that we didn't want to rush into it because there's there's a lot happening in that space at the moment and and I think you got to be really careful.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: There's some amazing products and tools out there, but I think when you start drilling down into really specific processes in agency um you need to be really careful about understanding a I think you need to understand the journey
Wendy Penfold: Wow.
Kristjan Byfield: that we're going through. you know, the fact that everyone will come at AI from a slightly different angle and attitude and experience. I think you need uh safeguards or kind of handrails, what you want to call them, kind of ways for people to kind of get familiar with it and work with it on their own terms.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. Wow. Absolutely.
Kristjan Byfield: Um, whilst kind of helping them make that journey into into where it go.
 
 

01:19:23

 
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: So, yeah, we've reduced the f produced the first one. I think we've got another another one we'll release in about the next hopefully next kind of four to six weeks. Um and then we're doing something around data towards the end of the year which is will be really exciting. But no absolutely love to talk to you about that in more detail. really keen to also have a chat as we touched on before this about your journey because I think this is with you know dabbling your feet in AI because I think this is that's a really interesting area of conversation I think within agency now is um how we are all choosing to approach it so overwhelming and I think you I we we talk a lot about it
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. Yeah. Finding our way through it because it is it is um it's almost like wanting it but not knowing what it is that kind of child in a sweet shop thing of like I want it. I want it but I don't know what I want.
 
 

01:20:12

 
Kristjan Byfield: at the moment and and we have some very clear objectives. Again, this way I'm based my base back as an agent. Uh we have some very clear objectives of what we want to achieve with AI over the next kind of 12 to 18 months.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: Um but like I said, it's it is overwhelming. It is kid in the sweetie shop. I couldn't think of a better um assimily.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: It's perfect. is that thing of like, oh my god, it's all so bad.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah, exactly.
Kristjan Byfield: Um, and yeah, it's really trying to figure that out. I mean, we've we've kind of made a conscious decision. I don't know about you guys, but I mean, summer for us is is mental on the letting side. So, we've kind of gone and with everything that's happening with renters's rights bill at the moment, we're just like, do you know what? Head down. Let's let's get through the summer period. Let's hopefully get to a point where RB gets Royal Ascent and we actually know exactly what the hell it's going to be and when the f*** it needs to be in place.
 
 

01:21:10

 
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: Um, and then I think once we've once we've freed up that headsp space to go cool, done. Um, then I think you know as we come into what traditionally the quieter months for us, November, December, January, that's going to be kind of a big a big period of experimentation for us.
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: One thing we definitely want to do is we want to try and bring the team with us in terms of you know AI is a journey and I think for us all to figure it out um I think it you know different viewpoints will definitely help young people's attitude and and insights to tech essential um and you know still got to figure out you know where those really crucial human points are you know where that where
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. That's my Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: that whether it's relationship ship or technical knowledge. Uh how you leverage how you crystallize those and leverage those out because otherwise you know if we all end up just being an AI platform um then you know all gets a bit boring.
 
 

01:22:15

 
Wendy Penfold: Have you did you listen to the um diary of a CEO?
Kristjan Byfield: So yeah,
Wendy Penfold: I don't know if you ever listen to him. He had on I mean he does get on my nerves, but he has some really interesting people on. And um I was talking about AI yesterday with a girlfriend and he had on the head of Google who was talking about AI and how AI is going how he's he wrote a book a few years ago and literally and he said he never expected what he wrote to actually really happen and all of it's happened and now he's writing another book but he was talking about uh getting to a point which She feels eventually it
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah.
Wendy Penfold: will be where we are teaching AI. The the only thing left to teach them will be kind of um ethics and how to be eth ethical and emotional.
Kristjan Byfield: Yeah, but I think like you know it it and and we we keep trickling down this path.
Wendy Penfold: And at that point, what the f*** happens then?
 
 

01:23:13

 
Wendy Penfold: Because sorry.
Kristjan Byfield: I'm going to have to end this in a sec, but um it's for me the fascinating thing is and I've only started doing this with a couple of small processes is we we've our approach is literally going to
Wendy Penfold: Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: be breaking everything we do as a business down into into specific processes that's going to evaluation or how you handle a landlord inquiry or how you handle a tenant feed or you know how you book how you handle
Wendy Penfold: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Kristjan Byfield: a viewing inquiry. Every single one of those is a task and then we map out every single element of that and every kind of uh variable of where that journey can go and then you figure out you know if humans need to be in any of that. The fascinating slightly terrifying thing is actually when you start really doing that and really genuinely asking where you add the value. It's it's actually it's fascinating and quite shocking how much work we do as agents that is transactional and actually you don't actually add any value to it. You either succeed or fail. You either do it or you don't. Yeah. Right. We know we've waffled way.