Rules, Risks & Respect: Carrie Alliston on the Evolution of Agency

In this powerful episode of The Viking Chat, Kristjan Byfield sits down with Carrie Alliston, Head of Partnerships at HomeLet and one of the UK property industry’s most respected voices on compliance, leadership and transformation. After decades of experience in agency - most recently as Group Lettings Director at Hunters - Carrie brings both operational depth and big-picture strategy to every conversation she joins.

This is not a surface-level industry chat. It’s a deep dive into the risks we ignore, the rules we misunderstand, and the relationships we take for granted - all from someone who has walked the walk and now helps agents talk it better.

Whether you're a branch manager, agency owner, compliance lead, or just someone trying to navigate an ever-shifting lettings landscape, this episode will leave you better informed, more inspired - and maybe a little bit more honest with yourself about where your business stands.

🎙️ What You’ll Learn in This Episode:

✅ Why compliance isn’t a box to tick - it’s a business asset
Carrie unpacks the real commercial value of getting regulation right. It’s not about red tape - it’s about risk mitigation, business protection, and long-term trust. She explains why every agent, regardless of portfolio size, should see compliance as a differentiator, not a drag.

✅ What agents get wrong about reform
We tackle everything from Section 21 to pets, licensing to leaseholds - and Carrie shares where the biggest knowledge gaps are, and how agents can turn uncertainty into opportunity by engaging early, not reacting late.

✅ The danger of being ‘too busy to be better’
In a world of shrinking margins and staff burnout, Carrie makes the case that making time for training, processes and self-reflection isn’t a luxury - it’s leadership. Agencies that evolve are the ones that survive. Full stop.

✅ From valuer to industry leader: Carrie’s inside story
Carrie shares her career journey from local agency teams to strategic national roles - and the pivotal moments, mentors, and lessons that shaped her perspective. If you’re a woman in property or a team member wondering how to scale, this one’s for you.

✅ Why respect - for tenants, landlords and each other - must return to the industry
We talk about tone. About trust. About transparency. Carrie shares how poor communication and ego-driven culture still harm our sector - and what agents can do to rebuild credibility with the public.

✅ Where the PRS is heading next (and what agents should do about it)
Carrie gives her no-nonsense take on the trends, tech and training that will define the next decade in lettings - and what agents need to prioritise if they want to remain essential in the eyes of their clients.

💬 Why This Episode Matters

The private rented sector is evolving fast. Legislation is piling up. Public trust is volatile. Talent is harder to retain. And yet, so much of the conversation in agency circles is still focused on fees, portals and short-term wins.

Carrie Alliston cuts through that noise.

With practical insight, genuine empathy and a deep understanding of what’s really at stake - for landlords, tenants and agents alike - Carrie reminds us that the best agents aren’t just well-informed. They’re well-intentioned.

They care about doing things properly. They invest in getting better. They lead with consistency - not crisis.

This episode is a masterclass in what the future of agency leadership looks like: smart, strategic, human, and humble.

👂 Who Should Tune In?

• Lettings professionals seeking clarity on compliance and reform
• Branch managers and directors ready to step up their strategy
• Property managers feeling stretched but wan

Transcript

Hello everybody and welcome to the latest episode of the Viking Chats and delighted to be joined today by none other than Miss Carrie Alliston of Barber Insurance. So Carrie was an agent for years before moving onto the supplier side and most notably with hunters but before I go into too much detail. Kerry, thanks for joining me. Do you want to tell everyone a little bit more about you and your journey and property so far? Yes, sure. Yes, so Kerry, I work at Barbon, brand names, Home Let and Let Alliance. Those tiny little businesses that just do a couple of references here and there. How many references do you guys do roughly? Well, it depends on who you are, I suppose. Let's go with marketing. About a million. I mean, not bad, is it? - Wow. - Yeah, no, it's good. Yeah, so I've been there since January of this year, and before that I was at Hunters for, I think it was 21 years. - Wow. - Yes. - So 21 years, when did, 'cause it's Kevin. - When I first started, it was run by Kevin, and actually it's brother Keith. - And that must've been quite a young business then, right? - Yeah, it was only a few years old. When I first started, I started in the Leeds office. had a city centre office right in Leeds and I just moved to Leeds. And was that before, did franchising come later? That came later. So that's when it was a self-contained business. Yeah, yeah, so I just moved to Leeds because I wanted something a bit more exciting out of life. From where? Where did you move from? Well, I had lived in Hampshire but before I was brought up in Cornwall on a farm. As you do. Shocking. So yeah, I moved up. I don't think I knew that. Didn't you? I don't think I knew that. Oh my God, we can eat another podcast for that story. - Yeah. (laughs) - Carry the farmer girl years. - Yeah, well I wasn't a farmer, but we did live on a farm that had no mains electric. We had a generator. - I mean, you know, it's Corbill countryside, there are no rules. - Yeah, so hence I moved to Leeds eventually. Just as Leeds was-- - Did you just stand in the living room with a light switch for a day, it's going, "Ooh." - Well no, 'cause you actually, one of the most tragic things as a teenage girl, You couldn't have the hairdryer on and the TV at the same time. (laughing) - The generator couldn't handle it. - It was not having it. - Wow. - No, yeah, so we had quite a bit of land as well. But anyway, like I said, that's a different podcast. - And people talk about our generation growing up slightly differently to the youth of today. - Yeah, yeah, it was an experience. - Yeah, it kind of reminds me of our house in Minorka that when we first bought it was derelict bakery and it had no mains water. we had a well in our kitchen. So there was a well in our kitchen and literally whatever you had to do, brush your teeth, go to the loo, whatever, you went and got a bucket out the well. - All right. - And yeah. And in the summer, like sometimes we were out there in the summer, you'd have to, our well would run dry and we'd have to get like a drinkable water truck to put up outside and refill our well up. - We did have a spring that was up in a farmer's field. - It sounds weird saying all this stuff. we're now in an environment where we have phones that could launch a hooking spacecraft. And like, yeah, it's a bit weird having these stories, isn't it? Yeah. Quite a lot's changed in our life time. It's just a little bit. Well, actually, my first ever job, I suppose, was in property in Cornwall in a town called Launceston where I went to school. And it was work experience. And I did my first work experience at Webbers. And it was back in the day where you... That must have been a fairly young business then or no. Webber's super is like Webber's one of the early ones. Because they're still going. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a long time ago. So my memory is quite hazy. Yeah. But I do remember it was the days where you had to print the photos out, print, stick them on to the details and then people would come in on a Saturday. And ask for an available list. Saturday was the busiest day, wasn't it? And they wanted the... They wanted the available list all printed out. Yeah. first ever property job was in there but yeah so then I moved to Leeds just as it was becoming what it is now it was always behind Manchester as a city but just as I moved to Leeds it was really all about the city living so I think I had started Hunters at a really good time yeah it was really vibrant all the new apartment blocks were being built they were really making it into the city that it is now rather than what people... So when was this kind of early 2000s? 2003 I moved there. So yeah when I first moved there it was very much because I'm from the south obviously so my dad would thought it was hilarious that everyone in Leeds up north you know war of black cap had a whip it and all that outside toilet but it wasn't that it was it was getting to be so different. And so when I first started in the letting's office there it was brilliant. It was just buzzing. Yeah it was fantastic. So yeah so I started in there in 2003 as a negotiator then you get made into a valuer. Because in those days you didn't have to learn a lot right? You were like, "Get out of safety." Yeah, but I was that person, I've always been that person that when I was... His deposit laws weren't even in there, that was 2007. Yeah, when I first went in they had CRM, they used... Swanky! Oh no, they used CFP Winman. Woo! Some agents still do to that. So I did not mean to laugh. If you're an agent still using it, yeah, don't be offended, but there are more modern products out there. still used the paper diary when I first started and I said you know this system's got that short diary. Got the diary? Anyway we went on to the diary pretty quickly. Yeah. Yeah so then, yeah so I was going to negotiate and you're right you didn't have the rules and all of that was no when it looked like it's now obviously. Well you could take any deposit you wanted, no cap on holding deposits, reference fees, having fees, all that stuff, those changes that have come in. And actually it did, I think I started in 2003 and then I think that was the start for me anyway, how I see it, the start of how it all began to change. Because even externally and internally, you know, people used to bring in cash all the time. What was the similar thing to when I started? I started 2002, like late 2002 and I did like 18 months and then we started based in 2004. So yeah, and you know, similar thing, like lettings in London, I think it's always been a bit buzzy because it's London, but obviously we had at the time that insane sales market in London at that moment where people would just, just kidnap my money. - Have my money. - Yeah. So yeah, no, it rings a lot of bells, but it's fascinating looking back now at the industry we walked into, which there was so little to learn to be a good neg. It was, you know, here's your applicant box. This is how you register an applicant. This is how you hit the phones. - Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's exactly, I mean, I remember my first day and they said, "Oh, can you go and do this viewing?" And I hadn't actually worked in the legends before, like on a front desk. - I'm pretty sure that happened to me as well the first day, just going to show you the squat like. - Do you know, can you go and do this for you? And I said, "Yeah, of course." And I'm thinking, I've just moved to Leeds, I'm not a clue where anything is. But I was like, "Yeah, that's fine. Keys, well, what do I do?" But yeah, no, but it was brilliant. And it was really good fun. But luckily, I think for me and for the team there in the office, I've always been that person that's quite into that detail. So it worked well. So when the more rules came in, I didn't push back on them, I quite liked them. I don't mind the rules. - 'Cause all quite good, and the vast majority of them have very good reasoning behind them, right? I mean, like the deposit laws when they came in, I mean, Jesus Christ, that was the wild west. I mean, we all knew landlords and agents who were like, oh, well, end of a tendency, I'll be keeping that deposit then. Oh, you need a reason, fag burn on the sofa. And it was, and that came in, and equally, I know for a lot of agents it was a really hairy time, but the tenant fee ban, again, I really feel like that was a really important shift in our industry, 'cause tenants were being rinsed just so that landlords could really underpay for the service they were getting. All the while, tenants really, most of the time getting short changed in service. - Yeah, I think that's true. I think a lot of the, so many people hate change, but I think within our industry, we're getting used to it now. And we do, - There's been a hell of a lot of that. I mean, the last, what, I'm saying 18 years, but really the last decade, it's been pretty nonstop, isn't it really? - I think if you've got guidelines and rules, you know where you work, you work what you're working within, and that's good for everyone. as an agent, the landlord and the tenant. And if you're dealing with a sticky issue, if you've got the rules, the tenancy agreement, to focus on and to refer back to, everyone knows where they stand, rather than it being the Wild West, where it's just opinion this or, well, it's that, or it's the, I think, I quite liked it. Like the tenant you mentioned, tenant fees out, I was at Hunters then working in, as a letting's director, I think, at that point. And as much as I, everyone thought I was having a nervous breakdown, secretly I was loving it. Absolutely thrived on how am I gonna help implement this into the hunters network to make sure that we are following the rules. Nobody gets into trouble and that the branches don't lose thousands. - Yeah, commercially viable. - Thousands of pounds of money. So yeah, a nice work in the Hunter's Office in York has to be, as it was leading up to the implementation day. I mean, I would be stomping around having a breakdown, but like I say, secretly inside, I was like, "Oh, I love this." It's exciting. - But it's all kind of, like you said, it's like, you know, it's happening for a reason. It's change that needs to happen. Businesses often find a way, and particularly like, it's one of the reasons I went into property when I went into housing is that it's relatively recession proof. In the, yes, there are highs and lows, but having a home isn't going to go out of fashion. You know, people aren't going to suddenly wake up tomorrow and be like, this whole home thing. It's so overrated. You know, the open air is the place for me. So I kind of always say it starts with it kind of, it finds its way. And with all this stuff, I think we go through this same cycle every time. gets announced and there's a knee-jerk reaction from Swayze Orange who's going "Oh my God, it's the end of letting agents and PRS and Landlords are going to leave!" and then the pennies start to kind of drop a little bit and it's like "Oh, actually nothing's really fundamentally changed." And it does generally nudge our industry into a better direction, a fairer direction. And I think, you know, and I think the renters' right to act is no different to that. I think, you know, when we first had it announced by the Tories and the last government, the renters reform bill, and then all throughout that, and then they're passing it delightfully onto labor and the last year or so of getting to where we are now, I think, you know, again, we had that same thing at the moment it was announced. It was like, oh my God, it's the end of renting. But once you see past the hysteria and you actually start looking at it from real world circumstances, like I mean periodic tendencies, that was the one that everyone lost their fucking minds about when it was first announced. Everyone was like, "Oh my God, tenants are going to move every three months." And it was like, "Are you fucking mad? Do you know how stressful it is to move out? And expensive. And you've got to find that deposit again, you negotiate your deposit out. use your house to make switch bills, everything else. You're like, you think tenants are just gonna bounce every three months just because they can. It's like, calm down. And I think what the reality of what comes out of that is I think there's quite a lot of agents who know full well they don't do a good job looking after their tenants. And I think a lot of that fear came out of them. A lot of agents get away and not just agents, landlords as well, get away with giving tenants a really poor rental experience. And I'm not even talking about the rogues and the criminals, I'm just talking about the ones who are just a bit shit. And they put people into a pretty tired, dilapidated property. And unless the ceiling is literally falling down or an entire wall is moulded, they just kind of ignore the tenant because you're in a contract, what are you gonna do? I think a lot of that fear was a lot of those agents, whether it's their own operation or the landals they represent, realizing that that's not gonna cut it anymore. They're not gonna have these tenants tied into one, two, three year contracts anymore. Tenants are gonna have that freedom to be like, "You know what? "I don't have to put up with this shit." And I think generally that's good for the sector. Are there things to be concerned about? - Absolutely. I mean, our thought very much specifically about that bit was that you do have incidents that we had a, we've got an ex-counsel flattened the boundary set, the beautiful boundary straight just off, Shortwich High Street. We look off this stunning top floor one bed flattened there, sits just under the roof, listed estate, operated by Tower Hamlets Council. we got a roof leak in there. It took us two years to get to our Hamlets to fix it. And you know, that got increasingly worse. Now, for a while, we kind of carried the tenants along and kind of got them to accommodate what was going on as much as we could. And I think initially we'd like, we quite quickly moved to like a 10 or 20% rent reduction because it was quite a serious water ingress. But then we got in front of the situation, but they were like, look, you're just gonna have to let us go. And in the end, we managed all of it. But I think those are the circumstances where as a landlord, leaseholder, and managing agent where you've got a third party entity, a freeholder, a block management company that kind of holds the keys to the solution. I think those are the scenarios. For me, as a letting agent and property manager, you need to be safeguarding your clients from. So, you know, that has led very much to us talking to our clients about what insurances do you have in place? You know, everything, really, most of the Renters' Rights Act, the primary concerns we've had for landlords ultimately comes back to insurance, you know? We've said like, with indefinite tenancies and certain framings, you know, rent warranties and I've always thought they're incredible value for money but now I think that value is insane, particularly in London where it counts for like 1% of rent. - Yeah, I think in the past, I think people have looked at things like rent protection as a luxury item rather than a necessity. And I think you're right, I think as we come into the renters' rights, I think a lot of people are concerned the media, landlords, agents, it was an element of the unknown because the headlines have been a bit woolly. There's not been a lot of detail behind it. Which was also the time to resolve, right? That's the biggest thing that we're concerned about. One of the biggest things to come out of this is our joint concern of what this is going to do to our underfunded struggling court system as it is. I think that was probably the biggest legitimate fear of removing Section 21s was not so much the fact that Section 21s have gone, because as we both know, as pretty much every decent, half decent, half sensible, land-ordinating age in the country knows, no one serves a Section 21 on a whim, no one serves it for no reason, it's served as an alternative to something else. And actually the Runes' Rights Act is framed very much that, slightly different, but those cases are all still there but you know you've always got that like risk you know ultimately it's a business venture right so it's just about understanding your kind of risk profile and if you're if you're a landlord without mortgages great your risk is significantly lower because even if you find yourself with the tenant not paying at least you're not having to pay a bank but yeah you know you've got to look at that and again but again I think this is all about Now, the ongoing professionalization of the PRS as a whole, you know, and we talk about a lot of this stuff, we're requiring landlords and, you know, the increasing need for them to use a quality lettings and management company because there is so much involved in it, but also because they need to take a business approach. Like, we would run any business and you look at what your risks are and how great those risks are and whether you can minimize or even eliminate those. Now I would say in pretty much any business if you could pay 1% of your turnover to eliminate your biggest risk relating to your income I'd say most businesses in any sector would buy the freaking off. Absolutely, yeah. Going back to, you know, we've, at the Home.net Alliance, we obviously look at stats and stuff like that. And last week I was doing a landlord event and so I got prepped for it. Yeah. Find out what the average possession time is in an area, two areas in Birmingham. And it was seven to eight months. Which is, you know, you're in a special situation that's bad. Yeah. We know that's going to get worse, right? The landlord has already had two months where there's no rent being paid. So you look at the average rent, I think it's about 1,300 a month at the moment. It's gone up a lot. Yeah, so you look at all of that, you look at that potential lost income and the stress of not, for landlords, you know, as a... I was going to say, if you've got a mortgage to pay, I mean that is... But you know what it's like, you always speak to landlords that are in that position and and they're beyond, they don't know what to do because, well, if they haven't got rent protection, you know, they're gonna have to pay for something. - And they still have to be a landlord. They still have to, if the boiler breaks, they still have to fix the boiler. If the washing machine breaks, they still have to fix the washing machine. They can't, they don't get to go, ah, you're not paying your rent. So I ain't doing anything to your rent arrears assorted. You can't legally do that. - Yeah, but you as an agent, you should have to remind them of that as well. That's the first thing they'll think. - Well, no rent, you know, don't pay your rent, don't get things fixed. Which is kind of logical, but. - Yeah, I think that's what being a good value was. That's what I learned when I was a valuer, 'cause when I was at Hunter's, I did all those jobs and learned a lot along the way to get to where I am now, because you know what it's like, we've all bolstered up evaluation, we've all bolstered up a call to get a price reduction a'r dd And that's what I think a big part of the job of being an agent is, is actually listening. Listening to what the customer actually wants from you, rather than, you know, that robotic pitch. Yeah. It has to be about that. And I think coming back to the renters' rights, I think that we have to look at it. Me as now a supplier, although I've still got agent brain, I can't, I still think I'm an agent. But that's why they recruited you. They wanted your agent. Yeah, I think it's we have to think, right, what is it that we can do for them? And how can we make the Renters' Rights Act actually work for everybody? Because it's here now, so let's just go on with it. I think the Renters' Rights Act is one of the greatest things to happen for letting agents in particularly property management for England, Wales, PRS that's ever happened. Yes, it doesn't feel like that right now because we're all freaking out about how to implement all of this stuff and we think we know how things are going to work but let's let's you know until it happens let's see what happens. But the more things you have to do the more strict something is. I mean you know the fact that our industry is not a profession the fact that we now have particularly on the letting side in fact more than a state agency and it's always a state agency that gets kind of the high profile side of our industry but I I think with lettings, you know, it's really funny. I always want to talk to, you know, you often find I just see people that either sales or lettings, right? I always find it interesting to talk to sales 'cause I'm like, then I, why don't you do sales? I'm like, oh, that conveyance thing stuff, I hate all that stuff being like out of control and juggling all these parties. And I'm like, why do you use sales? Oh my God, lettings, having to know all that compliance and all those rules and stuff like, no, no, no, solicitors have to know all that stuff. And it's like, yeah, but we're in control of it. Right, we know what has to be done. as long as we deliver it, we're good. What I don't like about sales is, yeah, it's someone else doing all that stuff that you can't control. But genuinely for, you know, what is it? Roughly 36% of England and Wales PRS stock is managed by an agent out of 4.2, 4.3 million homes. We have one in three. Like that's poor. We have roughly a half of the stock. So we've got roughly two million plus homes which are being let and managed by the landlords. And as you and I both know, with the greatest respect to landlords, most of them are massively naive and uneducated as the litany of responsibilities and duties and compliance and regulations they need to follow. - Well, this year we have been working with Eric Walker, lovely Eric. - Never heard of him, is he? - No, no, yeah, he's quite, I think he does a bit of this, a bit of that. - Yeah, he knocks around a little bit. - He does a bit. Eric's been doing a lot of long-awaited events for Martin and Co. And we've been-- - I can't imagine why, 'cause he's such an unlikable character and so unknowledgeable. God, he's, yeah, yeah. - Well, we've been attending with him from a perspective of, like you say, protecting the risk. And so we've been in front of thousands of landlords, most of which are managed by the agent. Yeah. But a lot, the only landlords have been invited as well. And it's been fascinating and pretty amazing. I bet almost every single one you've had a landlord ask a really basic question about deposit protection. There's been a lot of basic questions, yeah, which, you know, yeah, you can have a rise smile, but - Absolutely, do us. And what I would say is, and I'm not gonna name the groups, but I'm sure you're the same, I'm a member of Facebook and WhatsApp groups with agents in and I see some of the questions agents float within a safe community and I'm like, "Really?" - Yeah. - Like, "We're all a happy community, we're all," but sometimes I see some of the questions in there and I'm like, "You've been running an agency "for five years, 10 years, 15 years." - Yeah. - Yeah, it is, it is. - Have you seen the London groups? Do you know what? I've joined quite a few landlord groups and I often find myself leaving because I just find it depressing, bewildering. I find a lot of the language in them and obviously we're not talking about anything really overtly, sweary or nasty but I find the general language around tenants really quite shocking. That's not unique to landlords. I think that's still problem in our industry and it was it was what drove Ann and I to start base back in 2004. I mean Ann had been in the industry much longer than me, like I said I'd only been an agent for about 18 months. But Ann had been in the industry, I can't remember if it's either five or seven years but she worked for some you know she'd been at corals, she'd been I think man country wide, she'd done like a few, she'd been headhunted a couple of times, I'm pretty sure it's seven years she'd been in. But the one thing we like we absolutely agreed on we felt that landlords were getting an all-right service but one thing we absolutely agreed on was that tenants were treated appallingly in general and you know that was not just because those were pre-tenant fee act times so not only did we feel like tenants were getting rents I mean we worked the agency we worked for I remember their contract terms the admin fee for a tenancy was two weeks rent plus that at the start and end of every tenancy so you do a one-year contract and you'd get to the end of the tenancy and the tenant would go cool I want to renew and we'd be like cool cool cool these are the terms but you've got your end of tenancy and your new tenancy fee and then they'd go oh shit okay didn't realize I'd have to pay all of that, I'm gonna leave. Cool. So you've still got your endotenancy fee and now we've got your like check out and endotenancy admin fees and it was and that that didn't sit right with us at all. But the main thing that drove us is if you back then and this has definitely got better, but I would still argue that this is still way too common. If you go and sit in any letting agents office, if you've got the opportunity to be a fly in a wall and they kind of, you know, they don't know that they're being watched, if you listen to the common language within a letting agents office and the way tenants are often referenced. And again, we're not talking about really nasty words here, we're just talking about a general attitude and all too often there is this undertone of like, oh, oh God, guess what attendance last now. Oh God forbid they ask for something after paying you 20 grand a year, okay not you but paying a landlord 20 grand a year, how unreasonable that they want a fridge that works or like heating that when they turn it on actually heats up the fucking house. You know, like I just, that was kind of the driver for us was that we felt that landlords could get a lot more and if they did, you should never really lose a landlord. We've paid testament to that. Most of our clients have been with us since day dot when they joined us. But also with tenants, look after them and it's better for everyone. Surely if they feel well cared for, well respected and well supported, you know, fundamentally they're going to like that, particularly if that's not been their typical renting experience of day. So they're going to want to stay in that home longer, they're going to want to look after it, they're going to want to pay their rent on time and keep you and the landlord happy. Yeah, I think we've got to remember, it's easy sometimes to think about, it's a process, but actually what we're dealing with is someone's home and if we can all try to remember that bit more. I think then it's much better for everybody because it is a home, it's not just a house and yeah I think all that domino effect will come from that I think. Well I think there's a really really relevant point because again coming back to the Renters' Rights Act you know you and I have been around a lot of tables, TLIC and also the Super Elections Advisory Board but also in our own spheres, our businesses and our contacts, you know, and we've debated the myriad of proposals that we've seen over the last couple of years and the possible impacts. But I think what I've always found a little bit, again, disappointing is this kind of, this default attitude, and it's not just agents, it is landlords, it's also our media, this default preface that tenants are somehow out to pull one over you, to win one over. I mean, it's like the rent tribunal thing. This attitude that because of the reframing of the rent tribunal, there's this kind of expectation that almost every tenant is just going to dispute the rent increases because they can and they can tie it up for six to twelve months and there's no impact and it's like but most tenants can't be asked to do that. Like you said they want a home but also like not only is it really important that you you feel it's home but also for most of us you just want to pay your rent and live in a home that doesn't fall down around your ears and when something breaks it gets fixed in a time of fashion and all of that generally you just want to be left alone because it's your house we've all got so much going on in a life with work and kids and family and you know whatever else we're trying to do in our lives, how often do you really want the kind of nuts and bolts of your home to impact your day-to-day life and the reality is for most people, not at all, they just want to pay their rent and be well looked after and otherwise just be left alone to go on with their lives and I I think that's the slightly disappointing thing with a lot of, you know, and we've seen it in the media through all of our media channels. There's been quite a lot of like click baity stuff about, "Oh my God, tenants are gonna do this." It's like, they're really not. - 'Cause of the, one of the things that I talk about, if I'm at one of these landlord events, or I'm talking to people within Home Let and Let Alliance, when, you know, we're looking at all aspects of it, even though we're not an agent, obviously we work for agents. So we've got to do everything as well for the agents to make it work for you. And we've only got to look at Scotland. So the Scottish law. I mean, Eric's been saying this for years. Exactly. And Eric and I have a lot of conversations about this and the way that they changed the law in Wales as well. In Scotland, we're going to be doing a lot of what they've already done. If you want to see what the PRS looks like in two, three, five years, take a look at the Scotland. Just look at that. And it's fine. We talked to a lot of Scottish agents about referencing, about rent protection, about other insurances. And really, it's no different to what's going to happen here. And I think Eric has said before that, of course, rents went up a lot at the beginning, but it's settled down. Oh, and they brought in rent controls. Yeah. thing everyone's scared of. But if you actually research rent controls not just Scotland but in most countries, New York, Germany, Spain, in a lot of these countries, it's driven, at least initially, a faster rent increase than ever on record because the market kind of goes, "Ugh!" and does a reset, whereas they've let people be paying three, four, five-year-old rates. They've suddenly gone right, bring it right back up to modern rate. And it doesn't become this huge consumer win that, you know, it's another one of these kind of tagline policies that when you say what it's called, it sounds like it's going to be the best win ever for tenants. But actually when you drill down into the minutiae and how it is structured, more often than not, that's so great. I think the way we have to all look at it is whether, from what I decided, the fence is that it's happening and, you know, my attitude is very much, right, okay, let's just get on with it and do it well, make the best of it, make it work because there's no point in taking it and going oh it's terrible, what the hell is this, there's no point in doing that is there. No and I think look, I think there's nothing wrong with having those moments, I think what a lot of agents forget is that that is not a conversation to have on your social media pages, that is not a conversation to have in your company blog, that is a conversation to have in a room like this, in an office with your team behind closed doors where, you know, if you want to panic about the future of the industry and potentially your business, great, you do that behind closed doors. But I think if, you know, if we want to look at one of the driving factors of why there are a lot of twitchy landlords at the moment, you know, you and I were talking before we put the camera on, and I was telling you how, You know, the first month of this year, we had close to 15, just under 15% of our landlords, which represented about 22% of our stock, tell us at the start of the year that they had an intent to sell this year. And that wasn't primarily driven or solely driven by the renters' rights act, but that was a myriad of factors, age, time of property, stagnation of capital appreciation in London, tax changes, inheritance planning, you know, all this sort of stuff. But you know throughout this year and throughout the kind of renters reform into renters rights act there's been a lot of agents who've gone out on their social media, on comments, on industry media articles, bemoaning the death of the PRS. This is the end of it, it's completely unviable, all landlords are going to leave, it's not going to work. And then six months after they've been in trotting this stuff out almost every few days, they then start querying or going, see, I told you, all our landlords are leaving. Do you wanna know why they're really leaving? 'Cause you've just spent six months convincing them that the market's screwed and it's gonna come to an end. And I think what some agents forget is like, you know, we're the kind of, we're the marshal in the store. We're, you know, we're the ones who are meant to take a beat, have a think, have a bit of a nata and go, oh, actually okay, there's things we need to be aware of, there's things we need to consider, and there are definitely risks and potential negative impacts that we need to be aware of and factor into our business, but are suddenly four and a half million homes and 10 million tenants gonna suddenly decide they no longer want to rent a property? No. Because also, because they can't. There's nowhere for them to go. So there's always going to be a PRS. I know some people bemoan the Greens pledge a few weeks ago about getting rid of the PRS. I mean, don't panic, guys. It's a 10, 15, 20-year plan that they've got. And again, there are underpinnings to that, the provision of social housing and all this sort of stuff. So yeah, I think agents often forget that filter of, you know, we can give candour, we can give it, you know, we absolutely should be sharing our candour and our insights and giving context to things that get reported in the news and shared on social media and reported in our industry press. But our job is not to panic. like how is a landlord genuinely meant to trust you as an agent in your ability, not just now but in the future and that's what we all want, right? We all want clients that we sign and we work with for the foreseeable future. We want to never lose a client unless they sell that property. Unless they cease to become a landlord. I don't ever want a landlord to have a legitimate want or need to leave base. And that's what most agents have to aspire to. So with that in mind, it doesn't matter what service you're looking for, but it's only going to look after you for the rest of your life and a particular asset. Are you going to stick with the one that every time there's a legislative change and a change to interest rates or a change to law, throws their hands up in the air and goes, Oh my God, it's all gonna end. Or the one who goes, oh, that's a bit tricky, but actually, do you know what? This will be like that, that'll be like that. And actually, it's only this one you need to talk about. I mean, again, when we talked about the loss of section 21, I mean, that again, that was the thing Conservatives hung their hat on. That got Royal Ascent back in 2019. That went well. You know, and everyone bemoaned this, "Oh my God, we're gonna be stuck with people, and what are we gonna do?" But then when you look at the data, and it was pretty readily accessible data, I mean, the House of England report shows that 85% of all tenancies are ended by the tenant. - Yep, absolutely. - So hold on, we're absolutely losing our crap over what is instantly 15% of the market. And then you start drilling down into that, you go, okay, well, people, okay, we're changing the mechanics of it, but you can still have right to occupy. So that's another three or four percent. You've still got right to sell. That's another three or four percent. So suddenly your 15% becomes seven percent. You've still got legitimate renter rears breacher contract. Yes, again, the price has become longer. It's probably another four percent. So, you know, we're getting down to like two or three percent the market now. And we took that stance quite early on in this discussion and what was really interesting with our landlords were they were like, "Oh, that actually completely turned that on its head because we would have landlords read an article in The Times or the Telegraph or whatever and be like, "Oh my God, do I need to panic?" And it would be like, "Well, no, because this is the data behind it, this is the reality." And they come back going, "Oh, why is it even in the paper then?" I was like, "Because it made you click on it." - You read it, didn't see who you shared it. I'm like, the journalist has done her job. I'm like, hopefully I've just done my job and told you that nothing's to be afraid of. - I think that's where it can cause a problem. You've got, it's brilliant that nowadays, if as an agent, to find some information out, is loads of places to go. Like back in the day, you had to ring up a legal helpline to try and find the answer to something you didn't know. But now it's more readily available, but then on the flip side of that, there's a lot of-- - You've got to be careful. - Crap out there as well, or headline grabbing, or people just putting stuff on that's ridiculous. - Nonsense and also AI. - Yes. - You know, AI is great, but you've got to reign that bugger in. - Be careful. - You've got to have that knowledge. You've got to cross check. - Yeah, so I think it's a double-edged sword with the fact that it's easily accessible, but when you're looking at that, you are going to see the headline grabbing daily male style things that they're just to scare people. Yeah, kick-bait. And again, you've probably heard that over the years I've been in situations several times with journalists either at events or just meeting them and having a chat. And it's that thing of, I remember years ago, base was really young. I think we were only like two or three years old and I went to some local shortage business networking thing on Curtin Road and I met, I'm pretty sure it was the property journalist for the Telegraph or something at the time and obviously we were very bumpy then because we started 2004, I think that was like 2007, it's like a year before the Grave Financial Crisis, everything was a little bit, everyone was kind of like, "God this market is nuts, can it?" And I remembered like catching him and being like, what is it with you lot writing boom or bust? I'm like, it's either the best times ever, or we're all doomed. And I was like, why is there never anything like actually contextual and middle of the road? And he just went, it's very simple question 'cause it won't get bloody printed. He's like, if I don't get printed, I don't get paid. He's like, so my job is to write an article that my editor goes, absolutely people are gonna wanna read that. and to get my article printed and online, it was like, that is my job as a journalist. Like, as long as there is some sort of fact or substance to it, how I leverage that. And that was, I remember that being kind of eye-opening to me and really kind of setting my mind at that time, but slightly naive, maybe thinking that journalists were literally just reporting the news rather than doing a job, trying to, you know, pay their own mortgage and rent and whatever else they got to pay. So yeah, but I think, you know, journalist's job is one thing. Again, same with our media industry channels, you know, big support of those guys and they put out some great stuff. But again, you know, they are there to get eyeballs, to sell advertising space and everything else. And as agents, we have to be careful not to get caught up with the hiatus and the hyperbole and the (growling) And we, like I said, it's fine to do that in your office, in a closed space, within your business, within your circle of friends, within your network, whatever, have those moments of what do we do? Yeah, you're going to need them, aren't you? You need a lot of... Yeah, you've got to have those. You've got to have them. We have them. It's why I enjoy so many of the different people I know and things that we do because you always will have someone's new perspective. hear someone's take on something and be like, "That is fucking genius. I'd never thought to look at it that way." And it's quite often the perspective you take on it, right? But too many agents lose sight of the fact that they are their landlords' weather vane. And so if they are out there preaching doom and gloom, don't be surprised if your landlords act like it's the end of the world, because you've just spent the last six months telling the matters. Yeah, you know. So look, something else I wanted to talk about. So your time at Hunters, what was your what was your final big contro title? Lettings Director. Lettings Director. And so one thing I really liked with Hunters is, you know, there was several, at least on the letting side, which is kind of my wheelhouse and I know this is, we do see this more often. But what I did like with Hunters were they seemed to be quite ahead of the fray in terms of having strong, effective, professional women running the business. I mean, obviously there was you and there was Glynnis as well. And I know I'm missing others. I'm sure there's a litany of other incredible women running the business and probably, you know, the sales side better than I do. But they seem to be a business that whether it was something they specifically set out for, they were just really good at spotting talent without any kind of filter on. How did you find, you know, obviously this inequality within the space is reportedly within agency still steeper than in your average industry? How did you find being a woman coming up through hunters and what did you find kind of maybe underpinned or empowered or supported you guys different to other businesses? Because even to this day it's still pretty rare. Yeah. I mean it's difficult. Obviously I've worked there for so long so I was pretty, you know, I am hunters through and through and that's what we used to say. So it's difficult to compare it to other businesses because I just worked at Hunters. I think that Hunters ethos from day dot was always work hard, play hard. But it was always about working hard to be what you wanted to be and for the company. And that's what I did. I worked hard. So it was effort and results. It was, yeah. I think it was above all else. - Yeah, and I look back now and I think, "Oh, was I really ambitious?" I didn't see myself as ambitious back then, but maybe I was. In terms of, did I think I was gonna be the MD? No, but did I think I wanted to work hard and get involved? I'm a pretty nosy person, so I always wanted to be involved in the next thing. - I'd phrase that as curious. - Okay, curious, yeah. - Yeah, very, very curious. - Curious and inquisitive. - Yeah, so I just worked hard and got involved. I was interested as well. I was interested in different parts of the business and just wanted to do that. And then when Glynis became my boss, it was brilliant because-- - Did that feel different? - It did, yeah, it did because she is, she's a friend of mine now, so it's different. - She's an amazing woman. - Different now. But she would push you into, 'cause she knows everything. She knows you better than you know yourself. - She wasn't a daft kid to have got herself into that position and that time frame. I mean, even in a business that was perhaps slightly more forward thinking or. - Yeah, and she would push you and in a really nice way to push you out of your comfort zone. That was the biggest thing that she did. And but with the freedom to make mistakes without too many repercussions. - I think it's two really good qualities of any leader. - Yeah, and I remember when I first, I first had to present in front of the very early days of some franchisees, and I had to present what we were doing in the leads office. And it was only about 20 people there, and it was the first time I'd ever presented, and I was a mess. And I can't remember what I said, and I don't know whether it was any good, but she made me do it and then so the next time I did it, she gave me a few pointers and then I did it better and that's, you know, she did it in a nice way. - Yeah, that's really good. - But even though I said I didn't wanna do it again, she still made me do it again. - Yeah, you don't ever wanna see your staff drown. - No. - But yeah, absolutely. I think generally as a human, regardless of work, life, whatever, I think pushing yourself out of your comfort zone is a really, really healthy. healthy thing to do even if it just goes, "Oh no, I was right. I absolutely hate that. Or I'm absolutely not good at that. There's nothing wrong with being like, "I think I'll be shit at this, but I'll have a go anyway." No, no, no, no. I do know myself pretty well. But no, I think, yeah, I think with a lot of people now, I think that that particularly is a really, really common thing I hear of, you know, get out your comfort zone. It's I phrase it slightly differently. I think it's really healthy to scare yourself and you have to offset the risk and rewards I'm not the kind of person that will like Freedive off the side of a building so I'm just like that's just stupid It's just like come on risk and reward But each their own at the end of the day But but no, I think generally, you know things things that scare you things that you said that are uncomfortable very very rare that you end up genuinely regretting it. Yeah yeah yeah and going back to you know original question, Glynis was she it was it's coming back to what you said earlier there was a lot of women in lettings they were always about bringing people up through the ranks as well and so you know it 5, 6, 10 yw'r cyfnod, mae'n gwe were tough, you know, how we saw them go back to the front desk and get on with it and get, you know, all the sacrifices they had to make at that point and the work ethic that they had, you know, that's what you respect and then that's what you learn from and then hopefully you become a better person within your career in the same way. So that was, you know, there was all those little things that you know that they did as a company that you know that you look at and you think actually can't believe I'm here can't believe it's 21 years later then you get your old imposter syndrome. Time passing is time passing. Yeah absolutely yeah no. So do you miss it? I know you love I know you love the new job and it's got new challenges but do you miss the the the buzz of actually being an agent boots on the ground run the team or you like actually do you know what kind of feel like I did my time and I think yeah no I think I definitely did my time yes I miss I miss valuing my mess I miss meeting new landlords and you know explaining to them everything about being a landlord you And loves that. Yeah, it's brilliant. And talking about how we can, you know, do what we need to do for their investment and for their peace of mind, all of that, you know, I think you can talk too much. I'm very guilty of that. Sorry, I mean, you're guilty of that. I'm feeling polite. That's a first. (laughing) - Yeah, you can go too scary with landlords at the beginning. You don't wanna do that. But yes, I miss that. And I miss, you know, getting a let, getting a deal. - I know, you know, and as our landlord queen, I will go out on some, but really like 95% she goes on. But I still love doing viewings. I still love that moment when you see someone fall in love with a home, you know, and it's different to sales. But yeah, I still, I love that moment of people walking in and it's like, you know, And I love those moments where it's like, oh, you know, these really funny comments we get, like, oh, it looks exactly like it does online. Like every property shouldn't. It's like, uh-huh. And it's like, oh, it's actually bigger than it looks on a sat. Uh-huh. But no, I still, I mean, I get this with friends, people I talk to in the industry, my wife, you know, I still regularly go out on viewings, particularly at the end of the day. It's a really nice way to end the day, get out the office. I go and show a few people a flat. in the morning we tie up a deal and everyone's happy. I've found someone a great home, a landlord's found a great tenant and off we crack on that stuff. I still love that stuff. People regularly go, "You still do that?" And I'm like, "Are you kidding me?" I'm like, "That's what I fell in love with." Being as an agent. All the other stuff is fascinating and interesting and from a business perspective, there's lots to think about. But fundamentally, that's what I fell in love with, right? going out and seeing properties, you know, it's not people's homes, they are investments, so it's getting a slightly different cat a fish, but I love property, I love discovering new neighborhoods and new homes. And yeah, finding people at home and, you know, seeing that, I think it's not just the property also, I love meeting people on viewings and getting that, oh my God, you guys are so different to everyone else. They're like, you know, when we spoke to Lauren on the phone or Tristan or, you know, "Oh, they were lovely and they asked some really nice questions and, you know, sometimes we get like, "Oh, actually, I rang up at this property, but, you know, they found out that I've got a car and a pet and it hasn't got either of those, so they suggested this one and here we are," you know, and then they turn up and like I said, you can come and say, "Oh my God, it looks exactly like it does online." And it's like, "Yeah, and you're here on time and we've got straight in." And, you know, if it's - It's tentative. - They were expecting us. - Wow. - You know, wow, like whatever it is. And you're like, oh God, you've really, you've really not had a fun journey to this point, have you? But I love that little moment when you turn up and people walk in the house and that smile, they're like, oh thank Christ, it is exactly what we thought it was. You know, and you see them go walking off talking to each other and you know, you know that office is gonna be in your inbox within the half hour. It's like, there you go, and no, No, I'm pressurizing, take your time. Don't worry. Don't do the office. But I still love that. And I think, you know, I think for as long as we have base, and I say that not because there's any plans to change that, but for as long as we have base, I don't think that's ever gonna change. I think I'm always gonna want to go on viewings. I'm always gonna, you know, when we have a property that sticks, I want to go and have a look at it. I might take one of the team with me, but I wanna go and see it firsthand. I wanna go and walk in there and be like, If I was looking to rent this place, why wouldn't I want to rent this place? I told you, we've just done a massive refurb projects for a client of ours. He's been with us nearly 20 years, sub-pent house. And again, that was the driving conversation of that. We've let him manage that flat for 20 years. We've always, it's one of those properties 'cause it sits in quite a prime part of the market. We'd never have 30 inquiries about it, but whenever we put it to market within a week, it's gone and always a new record rent. And we put it to market this year and nothing. Like literally two weeks, I think we had one inquiry, which is unheard of for us. And they went up and they didn't offer. And I'm like, sorry, what now? You know, and I was just like, I need to go and see the flat for myself. And went upstairs and walked around the flat. And I was like, I know why this flat isn't that thing. 'Cause it's no longer a prime flat. - Yeah, yeah. You know, the landlord, because they haven't needed to, I think we've redecked it once. I think we replaced the carpets once. You know, we had a couple of insurance claim bits in there, but really that was the only investment the clients have made in the property in the 20 years we've let them manage it. They bought it 22, 23 years ago. So guess what? It's not, it's a bit dated, it's a bit tired. You know, and we then went through that journey, which again, I really like, I'm really passionate about property and how it looks and how it makes you feel. You know, we went through that journey of, right, okay, what does this look like for this client? You know, can we, is this a light refresh? Is this a kind of mid or is this a full, full shebang? And very quickly it was like, no, it's not a light one. It's a mid to a full shebang. But you know, when we pitched this client, I was like, genuinely, how long you've had the property, what it's worth, where the market's going. And we know that they are, to put it politely, financially secure. So we were like, you could save like 20 grand, but our advice spend the extra 20, do it properly. And maybe you can forget about it for another 20 years. But yeah, I love that side of things. And I'll, you know, as much as I love having conversations and talking about legislation and compliance and planning marketing and all this sort of stuff really it's about the properties and about the people. I think I'm quite lucky in my new role which isn't new anymore. I can't keep saying that. I don't think you can keep it new when you're literally closing in on a year. But that's what Home Let Alliance, they did want me there as the agent so I am spoiled in that respect because I can still be the agent in the room in the meetings when they're about different services they want to think of, different offerings, the way that the platform is evolving, I'm always there botting in as the agent. And agents will love that because all too often we are presented with products where someone will give us the name of or a preface to a new product or a feature and it's like oh my god that sounds amazing and then they show you how they've iterated it and you're like, what the hell is that? Like you started off with such a good idea. How did you end up here? - I think what I've learned dealing with the business analysts that do all the stuff for a home learn is their knowledge, I mean, it is amazing, like shockingly amazing. They really know what they're doing. - From a technical standpoint. - No, from our industry, it is brilliant. And what they're trying to do for the customer, so for the agent, is create a great journey. What's quite nice for me is actually sometimes I can pull them back in a little bit and say, actually agents just want a little bit more simple than that actually. Doesn't need, or what doesn't always, sometimes it's good, doesn't always need to be all singing or dancing. Just needs to do the basics because-- - It's an easier message to convey. as agents we have so much to tell our landlords, right? - Yep, absolutely. - So if one product takes five minutes to explain. - Yep, or even when you're doing something on the pre-tenancy platform, if you need to do five clicks, well why can't we do in three actually? - Yeah, absolutely. Again, it's something we've had with depository, less clicks is a mantra. We're constantly looking, we do our big stuff, we do our sexy stuff, we do our integrations, do our AI and new features, But one thing we constantly come back to is, right, when an agent does this, like you said, it takes them four clicks to get from here to here, why? Can it be three? Can it be two? Could it be one? - Yeah. - But, you know, simplicity, streamlining, workflow, yeah. - Yeah. One of Linus's famous phrases was that technology should be the accelerator. - Yes. Cymru ar y cyfgared I mean, you'll remember when I remember when I was a negotiator, the paperwork, the file you used to have on one tenancy, you know, like this. God, I mean, we started, we started based with no CRM. We were literally doing like every tenancy agreement, notice, prescribe, provide info when they came in, because I think we were just adopting software by then, because we started in 2004. monthly invoices and account statements everything manually created on word like well when I was got to science get to know people at home that would talk about different things like I can say it a couple of times today back in the day back in the day but when I used to as a neg you used to fax the application forms off to a high let actually and I was talking to him about it a while back and they had a person that had to man the facts. - I bet. - Or the facts is even, because there was thousands of people. - But remember how those facts came in? You'd be like... - Can't even read it. - At the best of times, it was like, dude, I don't know if I could read this if I saw the original, but having you faxed it from like Dubai to me, and I've now faxed it to a home let, like, who's, it's like Braille. And then you get a report about being like, they've passed, you'd be like, cool, someone read it. - Some of them figured out what it said in there. - Some of them can read that handwritten. - Yeah. - Oh, the days of faxes. - Oh, I know. (humming) And the works orders. I always remember those. - Oh, joy. - When you say fax, the works order to the plumber and wait three days for them to get round. Yeah. - Wow. - Can I use something else? - So before we wrap this up, 'cause we will wrap this up now, we're pretty much on the tail end. So what was, what was kind of the, biggest nice surprise you had moving from lettings into kind of the supplier space? The biggest surprise was that I could still learn something new. Although I mean I didn't move far did I? Come on let's you know. But being able to learn something new within the industry I thought would be more difficult. - It has a different perspective, right? Rather than, I mean, you're still, it's still obviously a business with its own interests, but you're looking much broader as a sector, particularly when you've got the kind of market share that they do. - Yeah, yeah, I think learning about insurance, I mean, if you'd have told me 10 years ago that I'd be learning about insurance, I'd be like, laugh at you. But, you know, and I hear myself talking in meetings now and I think, oh wow, I really do know what I'm talking about. Never thought I'd know X, Y and Z. So I think that was a big surprise. I think a big surprise was seeing it from the other side, seeing it from what home letter alliance, I used to, they used to, I was their customer before. So seeing it from their perspective and how they, you know, what their aims and goals are is, it was interesting. 'Cause, you know, the way that they treat, their customers is like the Kings and Queens as it you know as it should be. Well your customer success is your success right? Yeah and so that was that was a really nice thing to see. That it wasn't an act. It wasn't just something stuck on the door but then behind closed doors it was like how do we rinse them? No no no yeah and it was and I you know one of the things that they said my first couple of months and they kept saying things like you know we've got to remember we're only a tiny part of an agents day so we've got to make it impactful. And look I think that's fascinating again coming from a company that size but I think a lot of suppliers lose lose lose that and it's difficult as a supplier but I think it was interesting I saw and Simon Ledbetter did a post yesterday it was from his voice to the agent thing and it was this chart of suppliers with basically awareness against market share and and it's a very interesting chart. But Simon, and I usually agree with most of what he has to say, but he made a really interesting statement in there, which was if people know about you, but aren't using you, you're basically, your product's not right, or you're not conveying it right. And I'm like, that could be true, but what that ignores is exactly that point you've just said, agents, and particularly letting agents, 'cause you facilitate so much of that process. There is so much to think about. There are so many elements within the business from just your own internal management HR procedures through to marketing, client acquisition, onboarding, compliance, all the different stages of the tenancy. You know, the fact that as an industry, we handle insane amounts of money that aren't ours. You know, I mean, we as base, we're still a small company. But you know, when I look at what we make in revenue versus what goes through our bank account, you know, it's it's bunkers. And I think suppliers, you know, this is definitely something we've had to learn with the deposit tree is this patience is that, you know, you can sit in front of a client and they can absolutely love your product. But guess what? They're also, you know, they're looking at five other parts of their business. And ultimately, there's a myriad of drivers cost to the product or what it means to the business or how critical that issue is within the company and also what the revenue or growth opportunities are. And yeah, I think it's a surprise. You've got to be so patient. You've got to just keep doing what you're doing, keep trying to make it better. You know, the service, the product, the delivery, all you can do is keep going back and keep refining those and just keep trying to than better. And eventually you'll get to a point where that client you've been chasing for a week a month a year, a decade goes, "You know what? That's really good. I can't ignore that anymore." And yeah, but I think there is this perception with agents, and look, I'm sure there are suppliers out there like this, but I think the perception with agents is that a lot of supplier partners are just there just to sell a product to anybody and whatever. And I think much like most good letting agents are out there, not just to rent any home to any tenant for any landlord, they wanna do it for the right ones, they wanna do it well. I think it's a really, we're very lucky, in our honesty, we've got a lot of really good suppliers with their focus in the right place, like you said. And it's refreshing to hear that that is still the core belief of something someone as big successful as Barbon? Let alone what's happening with the smaller ones, that's really cool. Yeah, no. It's definitely something that was of such interest to me, well before I started and even now, how they treat their customer and to actually bring someone in with my experience and the fact that they want to listen to that I think, that says a lot. It says a lot that they also followed through with it because you hear this quite a lot going "Oh, we'll hire that person, they really know their shit" and then you come in and you tell them the stuff and they're like "This is not the kind of stuff we want to hear, you can leave now" It's like you know we've all seen those interactions should we say? Well I think we're in danger of waffling on too much, we've definitely done over an hour True to form. Thank you so much for coming down today. Oh, thank you. Had an absolute whale of a time. You know it's been brilliant. If you want to know more about Barber and Insurance, reach out to Kerry directly or hop on their website. And obviously, as Kerry said, the two main brands are Home Let and Let Alliance. So Paul means look into that. Do you have a little think about how you communicate what's happening in the industry with your client base and how that's perceived? Do you remember internal dialogue and external dialogue? to very different things. But, Carrie, thanks for coming down today. It's been an absolute pleasure. No problem, thank you. Good seeing you. And yeah, that's the episode for this time. Got another one coming soon. Thanks guys. Bye!