Not Just a PropTech: Why Street Group Thinks Like a Tech Giant – with Stella Nicol

What happens when a psychology student-turned-estate agent walks into the fast-evolving world of proptech? You get Stella Nicol- former Reeds Rains branch manager, Barrett New Homes sales manager, Spectre pioneer, and now one of the longest-standing team members at Street Group.

In this episode of The Viking Chats, Kristjan catches up with Stella for an honest, often hilarious, and always insightful deep dive into her journey from negotiating viewings in Chester to helping build one of the UK’s most admired proptech powerhouses.

From her early days “nosying around” homes and flipping through Cheshire Life for kitchen inspiration, Stella shares how her passion for property collided with a career-defining moment: cold-calling Street Group co-founder Heather Staff to ask for a job she wasn’t even interviewed for (bold move… that paid off).

We unpack:

• The highs, lows, and total madness of front-line agency life- from dealing with the Northern Rock queues outside the office window to managing across multiple branches during the LSL takeover
• How growing up in and around homes- derelict bakeries, building sites and French vineyards- informed Stella’s love for property long before Rightmove existed
• Her transition from high-pressure new homes sales to tech startup life, and what it meant to be one of just five people in the early days of Spectre, when the product was a game-changer and the job was... everything
• The real difference between agents who "list" and agents who "sell"- and how a personal family experience showed just how vast the gap between an average and exceptional agent can be (yes, a shoutout to Vicky Bibiris and the Brickworks team!)
• Why second-time vendors and landlords with ‘burn scars’ from bad agents are the most valuable leads you’ll ever win- and how Street Group’s data proves it
• The surprisingly tech-first culture of Street Group- why it feels like a genuine Silicon Valley SaaS startup that just happens to sell to agents, and how that cultural clarity drives both product development and people growth
• The magic of Heather Staff and Tom Staff’s leadership- including the values, openness and obsessive customer focus that make Street a genuinely special place to work (and the largest proptech engineering team in the UK!)

We also delve into the upcoming Women in Estate Agency "Not A Conference", and why it's one of the most important (and empowering) events in the industry calendar- for men and women alike. Kristjan reflects on how attending the event as a male founder, boss and father has opened his eyes to the challenges, strength, and perseverance of women across the property industry.

If you’re in agency, tech, or simply trying to build a better culture in your business—this is a masterclass in passion, perspective, and purposeful growth.

🎧 Tune in for unfiltered laughs, powerful insights, and why confidence, culture and code are reshaping the future of agency.

Transcript

Hello everybody and welcome to the latest episode of the Viking Chats podcast and I'm delighted to be joined today by Stella Nicole of Street. Stella. Hi, hi everybody. Thanks for doing the long slap down from the barren wastelands of the wintery north. I know. We just did before. Yeah. All the way down to Shoreditch to come and have a chat with us today. How are you doing? Yeah, really good. Thank you. First day back after the new year. I know at what point did we think booking a podcast chat in like the first proper working day of the year was a great idea I'm so glad you messaged me the other day. It was like everything's so good Honestly Monday Monday 11 o'clock. Yeah, cool cool. It was obviously some point December. I was like that. That's a great idea At the time it was logic to it Great idea. It was efficient. I was already gonna be down here It would tie in beautif like and then you think first day back on a Monday Listen, when I'm trying to lock down people in a company that's as busy and fast growing as you guys are, I think I've got a latch on to what I can get. And I was trying to lock you in December and you were like, December's quite busy for us. I'm a little bit busy right now. So to look for those who don't know you, let's talk a little bit first about obviously early stage career. You and I having a bit of a chat before we switched the cameras on. So seemingly like a lot of good prop tech companies at the moment, you started off as an agent. Yeah, I did. I mean, as all good agents do, I came out of the womb planning on being a... - Of course. - An estate agent. - Planned career path, studied hard, got all that knowledge and degrees and certificates. And yeah, I practically had a doctorate in estate agent before I started. - It was a very meticulous and strategic plan, obviously. - Oh, free car. (laughing) - And that was her one. She was like, I get a car. Done. (laughing) - Brilliant. Yeah, I started out. - Well, I went to university, traditional path first off. I did psychology and history there. - Of course you did. - Why not? - Perfect, the perfect tools for real estate. What else would you study to be a professional? - Exactly, exactly that. But note to be fair, my original plan was to be a child psychologist. So that was the psychologist, the psychology path. - You made a logical hop over to me to say. - Yeah, and well halfway through, the government changed it where in order to be a child psychologist you had to finish your BA or BSE and then you had to go and train to be a teacher first and interesting I was like that was not part of the gig no that's not what I signed up for not a fan no that's really that's that's really interesting and is that do you know is that still the case or not sure I thought - I thought about it the other day actually, but I don't know is the honest answer. But at the time, I remember thinking, and you're young as well and you think, I don't really want to go into education. - Teaching is definitely a calling and teaching children and particularly when you're young. - I mean, it's not my calling, yes. (laughing) - I'm a parent of two, I'm not sure if you might even. (laughing) But yeah, no, I can imagine that kind of like three. So, but did you see out the degree? - Yeah, I thought, well, I'm a student now, I'm enjoying university life. Why would I not? - I'm not giving this up. - Why would I not? And at the time, my mum had got remarried and she moved out to France with her, my stepdad and younger brother and sister. So I also didn't have that typical kind of home to go back to at the end of university. - So how was your younger brother and sister? So you were you in 18, 19? Yeah, so there's only kind of three years between me and my brother and he's the next one down. He was still finishing education, so he needed to go with and they got dragged. Oh, I bet he loved that, like 16 being dragged to another country, probably to like a very rural France to be like. Very rural. Rush hour is having. A car in front of you at the roundabout is rush hour. And your mum was like, hey, don't need to worry about her partying out here. He's like, gonna get drunk on the vineyard grapes. And that's about it. Yeah, exactly. I mean, to be fair, he's done incredibly, he didn't thank them at the time, but he's done incredibly well from it. So obviously the French and the English, he finished his education, became fluent in French and then worked his way up as an accountant, and he's now in France and he's now the CEO of Grant Fulton France. Jesus Christ! He did okay! He did alright! Jesus Christ! That's alright, okay. You know, what's your other sibling? A Formula 1 racing driver? Come on. I know. So my youngest sister equally got dragged out and she hated it more than my brother. She came back to England, she lives in Reading now, we were talking about that before. And she works for a company that sells weapons essentially. So she always knows when war is due. There's a big order coming in. Get the bunker at Easter. Yeah, so quite diverse anyway in background but essentially I'd gone to uni, they decided they were moving to France and when I finished I thought well I'm not going to now go and do a PGCE which is typically what I would have had to do. And I never wanted to be an estate agent obviously that's not kind of the path I know. Get out! Shotcorer! Yeah! But I did always have an affinity with it was more the houses So I would always when I was like 10 12 To like 13 14 I'd get my mom to buy me Cheshire life And it wasn't to look at the parties and the fancy dresses It was always to look at the kitchens and the bathrooms and the renovations and the all the kind of property related stuff and I remember My room for a book when I was about 11, I've still got it now actually, it was Britain's greatest houses And it was always I think I should thinking about it should have gone into architecture rather than anything else But essentially that's that's what I ended up doing And was just in enjoying houses and I would actually have to go back and study more That's the problem. There was an element of that as well. Yeah, um, so I I like the idea of being nosy, I think. I think that was also the poll and having a look at it. I think it's a common theme, right? It's a very common thing you hear about a general interest in property. Like, you know, I've said before I grew up, we would buy very rundown houses and live in them and after two or three years, we pretty much finished doing them up and my mum would be like, "Cool, so where's next?" So we like, we bounced a lot, but yeah, we would always kind of live on half building sites. I remember I house in Minorka, we only bought it as a holiday home originally, but it was the old bakery from the village, but like properly derelict. No windows, no doors, no running water. It had a well in the kitchen and for the first four years, the three or four years we holidayed out there, we did everything from the well. So you take a bucket from the well and you take it up to the loo. You tip it into the sink. And in the summer, it would sometimes run out if it was really hot and we'd have to have a truck pull up and fill the well back up. It was, but yeah, no, we moved around with that. And my dad, my dad probably should have been an architect but never had the master of physics skills. He went into art, but he, you know, he had a massive passion for architecture. So anywhere we go, he'd be like, you know, what do you think about this? And what do you think about that? And he'd talk about the different styles different classical styles of architecture. So yeah, we were, again, like you said, I was brought up around that and when it came to falling into agency, like a lot of us do, I think there is that draw. You don't necessarily understand what it is at the time, but it was like, oh yeah, a property, I like property and I like chatting to people. - And that was it? And that was it? It was the only job that I applied for and I thought, well, I need to have a roof over my head. I need to earn some money, what can I do? And I saw obviously it wasn't online in the same way for searching for jobs and it was a job in the paper. And I went into Chester, into the city centre office in Chester of Retrains and came out with the job and that was it. And it was a really straightforward kind of interview and landed my role as junior negotiator as you do. And so obviously worked your way up. So how long roughly were you there for? - I wanna say probably about, I mean it was a long time ago but about eight years in total I think. - Oh wow, actually okay, long ago I thought. - Seven or eight years. And funnily enough, also in that office was James DePavey and me and James had our first proper jobs together. funny. It's gone full circle. I mean, I love that voice a bit. But yeah, we worked together. And then our lives took separate paths. And then now we end up obviously the same events and James is on street and yeah, we have a great time, you know, but it's nice. I mean, you quite often hear these stories like now, I mean, with more of us being in the industry longer and longer. Yeah, I was going to say our bids are getting getting grayer, but that's that's that's a bit harsh. But um, but yeah, no, we're definitely but no, it is it is really nice. And I think what's really nice is you do hear these stories. And there's quite a lot of people who've been in the game quite a while, whether it's people you see kind of bounce around the corporate scene or you know the well-established independence that we all know who've you know now been knocking around I mean Christ base is going to be 22 years in May. So it just goes doesn't it you don't even think about it. Like yeah it's just when you look in the mirror you realise actually how long you've been doing this. - Yeah, so did your seven, eight year stint at Reedrain's worked your way up to branch manager, area manager? - Yeah, branch manager in Chester, a couple of other offices I ended up doing as well, so into North Wales and Staffordshire, but predominantly stayed in that area. Yeah, obviously you get involved in sales on that things. a couple of years after I joined, Rejoins was brought out by LSL. So obviously you end up watching that and we had the, obviously the recession there, Northern Rock was right opposite our office at the time. Obviously it's not there now. - The queues. - So yeah, we distinctly just, I have this visual recognition of just the queues outside, the window and you think she got real. 'cause I remember, yeah, we were what, four years, we started basing 2004, and yeah, obviously recession hit early 2008, it was like, but yeah, no, we weren't Northern Rock customers, but it's one of those things you kind of remember, and it sticks with you. I mean, if it had been across the road, I think it definitely would have, but I remember seeing it on the news and being like, ooh, it's getting serious. - Yeah, it was, it was a really kind of serious time. And I think it helps now to be fair, in the obviously, mind time at street, you've seen kind of, you know, peaks and troughs in the market and we see it even though we're not part of it directly because we obviously experience. And you see the data. Every nuance of the, yeah, of what anything you've experienced. You know what's happening in your platform, you know where the transaction levels are. Exactly. And through COVID and all the things that they experience. And I think just having that context of being sat in an office and knowing how that feels, I think quite often can help with those conversations with agents, definitely. Yeah. And I think, you know, again, it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's, and the better you understand an agent's business, because I think that's the thing I think, and this is why I think so many of the companies that do really well at the moment are ones that either have a team or leadership that is ex-agency. Because it is such a weird business, like model, fundamentally. If you work on the traditional fee structure. And it is strange how we've kind of pigeon-holed ourselves into this kind of slightly annoying category of... I don't know, I suppose not a lot, but a decent chunk of the public could kind of consider us a kind of necessary evil with letting agents and estate agents. And yeah, it's just a funny one, isn't it? We're such an essential part of everyone's lives. And yet we still struggle with the reputations that we've got, but at the same time, it is a really challenging business. The business model that we've kind of, most agents have built for themselves in this country no sale, no fee, no upfront marketing costs, low fee structure and everything else. And like you said, and then you're at the mercy of the market. As we all know, good agents obviously will leverage what's out there, but ultimately no agent can be like, right people, you're buying these houses. - No, nobody's immune to it. - The market goes flat. - Nobody's immune to it, that's exactly how it works. And if you said now that you were starting an industry, And this is how the industry would work. And though, you know, in terms of no sale, no fee, and these are the people who think you'd be absolutely berserk. - Yeah. - You're off your rocker. And yet we do it and it's absolutely ingrained into the industry. - Yeah, 'cause you think really, I mean, there's really no other field. And it's, we see it as just the way it works. But you think in any other arena, our fee structure is a bit ambulance chasing, isn't it? It is that no win, no see kind of like if you phrase it another way and we've kind of pigeonholed ourselves like you think you know we want to become a profession there is a lot of talk about roper and it's like it's got mixed support. I've got to be honest I sit on the fence I see. I don't think it'll fundamentally change much but maybe it would do over a longer period of time so I suppose maybe in that way there would be a greater benefit but you know if you think like you said you think expecting quality solicitors to be like cool you're gonna do all that work and bear all the costs that you do doing that work and if it all works out whether or not you've done a good job but if it all works out then you'll get paid but not too much and the time that these things take is like you say the length of time to see any significant change is going to be a while, none of this stuff happens overnight. And by that point in time, normally for any legislative changes, too many other things happen in between. There's too many industry swings, we get distracted, there's a change in government, there's... Yeah, let's do a clear of government. [LAUGHTER] There aren't enough hours of the day to navigate that one. So look, just quickly back to you, Joni. So you did agency, and then you went into landing new home sales, right? Yeah, I did. I mean, it wasn't proper to mark at the time, it's M-FOT, but I did a brief stint training for NAEA and RLA training individuals, and then went to Worker Sales Manager for Barrett New Home. So always within property. - Yeah. - I've kind of covered the full spectrum, I think. - So you did that, and then you made the leap to Spectre. So what, oh, I was supposed to read that. - Yeah. - Something happened in between. - So maybe this is gonna ask the question. So what made that leap? 'Cause like eight years ago, like now, there's more and more agents doing this stuff and it's becoming a slightly more, not common, but a slightly more logical career path. Eight years ago, not so much. And definitely to go from what was a pretty established career and then to take a chance with what was then a startup. - Yep. - How did that even come about? Like, did you-- - So, I suppose it's a bit of a funny story, but I mean, Barrett, I loved my time at Barrett. For anybody that's worked in new-build homes, they're very traditional, they're processes, they're archaic in terms of how they do things. - Yeah. but the mass kind of scale that they do things on and the money that they make and how they do it is incredibly insightful. And actually it was a really kind of nice business to be part of. It's quite an antisocial operation because obviously you work every weekend and you're off on a Tuesday Wednesday. Nobody's off on a Tuesday Wednesday to do anything with you. - I mean, more so now, but 10 years ago, no. - Yeah, it was, it's a hard one to do for a long time. - Yeah. - And there's quite a high turnover there because of that really. - Yeah, it's, yeah, I think weekends is brutal. And if you're having to do both days, most weekends, like you said, that really impacts your social life. - And it doesn't matter how high up you are, if you sit on the commercial side of the business and not the construction side. - Weekends is when you say what you do. because you can't have half your sales team out there and asking questions and the senior team not available either. It just doesn't work. So there was an element of that and I hadn't applied for a job. It was quite funny 'cause a friend of mine had gone for an interview with Heather. I don't know whether he'd met Heather and Tom or just Heather, but he'd come back from his lunch and I was like, where have you been? I've just been for an interview. And he was telling me about it. He says, I don't think I've got the job, but anyway, he was telling me about Spectre, essentially. And I said, well, you're an ex agent. He hadn't quite kind of grasped it, but from my perspective, I've driven around. - I get it. (laughing) - Writing down house numbers on a flip. You know, there's two of us. - The old school, the board spotting. - Somebody driving. - Checking the online ads. - Which one is that? - So I completely got it. The minute he started describing it and he said, and they built this thing that basically tells you the house number, so you don't have to, look, that was incredible. - That's amazing, yeah. - Like before it even done anything, I was like, that is gonna be incredible. - Yeah. And that's when you know it's good, right? You know, when you've got that experience and you're like, if someone had walked in and sold me this when I was branch manager, like where the fuck do I sign? Yeah I'll pay whatever it doesn't matter it's fine. And he hadn't quite grasped it because I think unless you do the job and you've done the job I just don't think you can grasp something like that and I know it's mine yet but just that prospecting. It sounds nice but you don't really understand what the alternative is. No and fundamentally I mean, it's a very nerdy, but obviously it's what we do. You know, second hand instructions are the most valuable instructions to agents in terms of... Is it roughly half? 60%. God, there's more than half. Typically, yeah. So typically, and... I mean, I always thought it was around half and I always thought that was high, but 60% that's phenomenal. But easier to sell, obviously, when you've got a vendor that's more motivated. One, they've kind of learned from their mistakes, right? they've picked the wrong agent or gone to market at the wrong price or you know whatever the combination of those things is. So they're a little bit more savvy they don't tend to be. I mean it's something you know we've coined at base we think for at least a decade now we refer to ourselves as a landlord's first choice second agent. Okay. So we don't because we're a small agency we often won't get off it in the door the first time because we're not in every glossy magazine. We don't do tons of advertising and flyers and everything else. We've never done boards. I think we did boards for about a year. But so we often don't get in on that first hook. But usually when something goes wrong, whether it's a difficult tenant or the agents ball's up or whatever. We then find that how a landlord looks for an agent and again, I'm sure your data probably behind sales will show a similar but obviously different motivations, but how landlords look for an agent when they've been burnt. Well, like I said, whether it's the agent that's burnt them or the tenant changes dramatically and then it goes from, oh, who's who's got the highest price listing in my building or who's got the most stock in my building or who's got the lowest fee to who's got really good reputation, who really knows their stuff, who's gonna be on top of compliance or maybe they've got stung by a property licensing fee or whatever. And then we find that, yeah, like I said, that methodology changes and then also those conversations are easier. They come to you, 'cause you're an expert and then it's like, cool, this is everything we do, this is our fee. And the nice thing is 90% of the time, there is no like, ooh, anything you can do on that. 'Cause it's like, they've learned that lesson. They've gone for the 5% letting fee or the 8% managed fee or in sales, they've done the half percent, 0.75%, 1%, you know. - They're more realistic on their listing price. And we see this obviously with respect to sales and also respect to lettings though. We've got both, so we cover both. And you end up seeing the fee difference, the listing difference, but also just purely from a commercial perspective. You coming in and being the agent that delivers when another agent hasn't, from a reputational perspective, is priceless. - I think I still find it astonishing how different agent results can be. And I think for the consumer, you know, unfortunately, and I think this is the bane of every agent's life. And I think this is true whether it's sales or lettings. The consumer still fundamentally thinks all a sales or letting agent does is stick a property on RightMove or Zoopla or on the market. - Of course they do. - And that's kind of like 95% of the work done. We had, I think there was a really interesting example of highlighting exactly what the difference of an average agent and an exemplary agent can be. So last year my sister tried to sell her house in North London as he's off in the case and I'm sure there's a lot of agents that will be able to identify this. Of course being a family member she listened to every single word and every single piece of advice that I gave her on. - Obviously. - Yeah, absolutely followed the short list of my agents. Absolutely listened to me about moderate price, decent fee, that's how you find the right agent. Listen to it all, obviously, as all family and friends do when they know, or are married to, or whatever sibling or child that is an estate agent. So went through three agencies, First two agencies who both had a good crack at the whip. I'm pretty sure they both had like a good two months at it. I think each agent managed roughly five viewings. And I'd obviously been saying to her for a while, there was one agent, one local agent that I had said, "Look, this one seems to have the best data." But then by the time she'd been through two, I was like, "Look, you need something different." So I went to our dear friend Vicky. - Yeah, I was gonna say when's Vicky gonna come in too. - And I was like, my sister was like, but you know, it went to their wedding, she was like, "I love it, but they're Stoke Newington." I was like, "Trust me, good agency is good agency." I was like, "If these guys can't sell your house, "no one can sell your house right now." 'Cause it was last year and I think early this year, North London, kind of back in the Muswell Hill, it's a tough, it's a tough market at the moment. A lot of London is tough, as we know at the moment. And so my sister listened and trusted and we got Vicky and her incredible team on the job. I think in the first week they did 35 viewings. - Wow. - Yeah. - Look at the difference. - Yeah, it was none of that. They did like two group viewings. But again, the marketing, drone shots, the walk around tours that they do, the presenter that walk around tours they do with their team. - And being on street. - And being on street. - And being on street. But it was just next level shit. And it was really nice for my sister to be like, oh, and I was like, yeah. So you know that advice I gave you like four months ago, this is what that looks like in real practice. But I think, look, and I think that in itself is a really interesting story, 'cause not only is the consumer woefully ill-equipped to understand how to pick a good agent, but even when they're being given the right advice from a trusted source, supposedly, it's still like, yeah, but you know, these guys offer me a really good rate, and they promised me they've got people waiting on the books, I was just like, oh. (laughing) - It's always the way. - But no, I think, you know, and it was, it was made in the end and Vicky's team got, I think it was either two or three offers, whereas the other agents didn't get a single one. - Yeah. - You know, and in the end, my sister ended up not selling 'cause they, we didn't get it to where she really kind of needed it to be. And again, I had a lot of respect for Vicky and her team because that's one of the reasons I stopped doing sales. Like for me, like once you sign on the line, like if I get you out or above asking, I've done my bit. - Yeah, you've done it. - Very much, I find that bit really hard. So I remember my sister calling me and me being like, cool, cool, cool, cool. I call Vicky to choose that, it's fine. That's the nature of the beast. - I mean, Vicky will be used to it. And there's the fact that-- - The results speak for themselves. Absolutely phenomenal. My sister was completely blown away and she's like, wow. And I'm like, do you get it now? I'm like, you know, although my sister did also then do the faux part off the back of that, she was like, right, I'm gonna let the property out. She called me a few days later and she was like, just need to run something by you. And I was like, yeah, she's like, so I've spoken to this letting agent. And I'm like, "Already?" I'm like, "Yeah." Because it wasn't me. And she was like, "So yeah, so, you know, they've said all the right things and they're willing to do, like, let them manage it for 8%. And I was like, "Right." She's like, "Just sounds like a bit of a rip-off to me." And I was like, "Ha ha ha ha ha." So one other thing to add is my sister worked with us here for a year. I employed her. (laughing) So I was like, no that was an interesting conversation 'cause I was like, so thanks sis, good to know. But I was like, if you think that's a rip off, you might wanna cast your mind back a few years to the fact that we charge double that amount for us to do it. And also, you're talking to a letting agent on the- - Who you haven't spoken to? - Who might, might have been invested in just that. I mean, I do find, and I think it's a true business 'cause you see this a lot across all sectors. Nothing exclusive to property or estate agency. But I find the psychology about friends and family with business fascinating. 'Cause the vast majority of people I talk to, yes, the family are very supportive. quite a lot of people will be loaned a bit of money by family and friends to kind of get things off the ground. I'd be like, oh son we're so proud of you or you know whatever. But actually backing someone and being like, oh you know my mate's doing this or my brother's doing this or my daughter's doing that. And this whole thing of like, oh yeah I'm going to be renting my flat out but you can you can do me a deal on that right and it's like hold on so you're happy to go and pay like a complete stranger down the road full whack but because it's not me because i'm your brother you want it for half price i need to undercut someone you don't know to win your business even though you know i'm fucking good at what i do i find and that's it's the classic dynamic - It's mental though, isn't it? Isn't it weird? I don't really know where I'm going with this 'cause it's one of these things that I just, I find as I come back to and tripping over 'cause I just am fascinated by the psychology of it 'cause in theory, like your friends and family should be like, yeah, yeah. - Should be like your best sales funnel. - Should be like, you're gonna look after them. - Know that you're gonna look after them and yeah, it doesn't happen, does it? - No, no, so it's weird and wonderful. So let's get back on track. So talking about the interview, so you heard about the interview, went in... Oh, I didn't know! No, so this was me talking to my friend who'd been for the interview and I just said, "Give me a number." I think you were a salesperson back then. That was literally what happened was, yeah, so he gave me Head's mobile number and I rang around and said, "Hi Heather." You don't know me. You don't know me. This is, I was literally like, "You don't know me." My friend Paul's just been for an interview with you. I don't think he's got the job. I'm going to be right for it. And that was literally the conversation. But there's nothing wrong with confidence, right? Yeah, me and Heather went for, we literally went for a coffee. Obviously now we have a full talent team and recruitment process. - We don't quite have that one. It's like two founders and a chat. You know, there was literally, there was five of us - Including Tom and Heather. - In the business at the time, maybe six including Tom and Heather, but it was minimal at that time. And yeah, rattling rounds, it was a huge office at the time. - And the vision. - Yeah. So yeah, I went for a coffee and the rest is history, as they say, and Heather and I just got on and now I'm part of the furniture. - But sometimes you mean just click, right? It's like Carla, you know, I met Carla when we were still building out the depository. And I think we built a working version, we were using it in base, 'cause we used it in base for nearly two years before we opened it up. And sometimes you just know. - Yeah. - Right, I remember I met Carla after the old PropTech event that used to happen, not the agency industry one. It was, it was, what was it? PropTech Connect is the one now, but it was the one Gary Chimwar used to run. - I don't remember. But it was like the original like UK PropTech event. - Oh, do you know what? Yeah, I think I have been to it. - So they did it at the last couple of years, they did it at the Islington Business Design Center. - I'm not bend, isn't it? Yeah, I know the building. I have been to it been to one a couple of years ago. - So we'd had a little, like just a tiny little pop-up startup stand there. And then I remembered, and then I was part of the UK PropTech Association at the time. and they were doing a little awards thing afterwards across the road at the pub, as you do. And yeah, I remember Bumpy into Carla who was, she just moved to, 'cause she'd left working with Charlie Lambden and then she'd gone to, ah, I forget it anyway, one of the quite major CRMs. And yeah, we just, you know, started talking about things and quite refreshing to talk to someone in tech who was also very much on the letting side. - Yeah. - And yeah, sometimes you just know, right? You just sometimes meet people. I remember saying to Kara at the time, not ready for you yet, but in six to 12 months time, I think we've got a role for you. And here we are five years later, six years later. - Again in the year. six years later. - Well, I think in those early days, I mean, anybody in that kind of start-up environment, you're doing everything, you know, from the marketing to the sales to the support for the CS and everything's rolled in, isn't it? So actually, the variety that you get to do and everything that you learn and-- - Well, I think as a leader, and I'm sure Heather and Tom will up this as well, like having someone slot into the role, he doesn't necessarily understand the business or where it's going, but gets the problem, gets the solution. - Yeah, and it-- - Understands the real intricacies of the job. - And that was it, and we were, we had Hello again at the time as well, so we were focusing on, which is now anniversaries with Inspector, but we were kind of launching that element of the Spectre site. Obviously, Street wasn't a thing. It was just Spectre, our first baby at the time. But yeah, some of the stuff that we were able to do and try and like you say, just having that industry background and knowing the day-to-day job and being able to pick up the phone. I wasn't scared of picking up the phone. We hire people now and they're scared. - And again, Heather, we love that because you know, again, with that sales background, that thing of, you know, and you'd been in it long enough where you had to generate deals. You had to, you know, you can't just sit and wait for the phone to ring. - Absolutely, I'm being able to pick up the phone and have a conversation without being behind an email, you know, which is so often how things are done now. - But also without that boring sales pattern. - Yeah. being able to have that repertoire to you of like, come on, we're agents. - And they keep calling. - We get it, I've been there, I've been that person. You said earlier, the moment you heard about it, you instantly remembered how horrendous that jump was. I was doing it, I'm pouring like, surely there's gotta be a better way to do this. It's like, those years and years and like. - You don't even imagine that that could be automated. And yet, here we are. And Spectre's obviously evolved hugely in that time. It's email marketing and a whole marketing suite now in comparison to the dynamic model. You've got the website side of it now as well, because you know it's that last year. Yep, so we've got Spectre Sales, Spectre Lettings, the email marketing, social media. The website and obviously Centra CRM. Yeah, and property reports as well. You guys need to stop being so fucking lazy and really pull your finger out and do some proper shit. So look, Heather and Tom, I want to touch on them for a bit because they are, I mean obviously Heather very much takes the kind of public lead I would say. Obviously it might be different scenario within the four walls but I think for most people observing the business. Heather is the figure I had typically. She's the one who stands out on stage and for good reason. Because what a human being. Yeah. I mean, those two, I mean, yeah, incredible human beings. I love them both to bits. You know, they're phenomenal. And I wind Heather up. It's a standing joke that she thinks I I think Tom is more intelligent than her, and it drives the maths. But I don't look, they both do their own thing for that business that is insane, and neither of them could operate without the other. But they're both, yeah, just so, so good at what they do in their own space. So Tom very much. - Tom more the technical leader, right? - Yeah, so he looks after the engineering side. I mean, he built the Spectre pretty much in the first draft of Spectre was built in his bedroom. And he self-sought. Yeah, self-sought code. - I'm a bit a bit bored. - But that was very difficult. Tom, you know, he is incredible to do stuff like that. But he, so he very much-- - So it's being how those things work though, right? So it's a brain itch that needs to be scratched. - Yeah, so he looks after the engineering side. I think we've got the largest team of engineers now in the UK PropTech space by a country mile. So he looks after that and the build and road map and where that's going strategically. And then Heather will look after the commercial kind of side, typically. very much kind of culture and well I mean it obviously I see Heather take a lead on culture because again she's the person at industry events who steps up on stage and talks about it within the four walls do you does that feel like it very much comes from both of them? Oh it's a cohesive team like you could the pair of them will work together to operate that culture. Tom kind of takes the technical lead does it feel like Heather bit more like the kind of business strategy and kind of... No, anything collective strategy will be done together by both of them. There's not... you can't kind of separate the two of them in that respect. Literally the day-to-day in terms of teams, Tom will sit on that side, Heather will sit on that side, but anything... So it just depends where it's coming from. Yeah, and you know, we've got a large SLT now as well that will sit... between them and the rest of the business. Senior leadership team. - There we go. - Yeah. (laughs) So it's quite a large operation, but yeah, typically. - I mean, quite a large. How many heads, what's the heads, how many? You started there was five or six. - And now, I think we're pushing 200. - Wow. In eight years, I mean, that's, that's insane. - Yeah, the scaling has been brilliant. And like you say, the culture that has grown with it. And that does come from both Tom and Heather and then as an SLT it'll be infiltrated and the rest of the business as well. The idea is that, I mean, there's several kind of operational, yes, it's values, but it's how do we operate? And our operating principles are incredibly important and we kind of instill those throughout. Well, actually we start right at the very beginning, like we would not be the success that we are without the people in the business. And I know everybody says that, and I know that sounds really corny and cliche, but fundamentally we wouldn't be. And it starts off-- - But again, it's about giving those people the right framework and support system to excel in their roles, right? - Yeah. - Because then it goes hand in hand, it doesn't, You can hire the best people in the world, but if you haven't got the right structure within the business for those people to excel at what they do. It has to start with a really incredible recruitment kind of process and we have a really robust, we have an internal talent team that makes sure that that recruitment process and structure is followed. And where do you feel like that came from? Because I think particularly, I think Street's been quite unique in that like we hear a lot, In the industry, we hear a lot about the leadership on the agency side of things. And I said, Heather's been great. Seen her stand up and talk at lots of events and give amazing talks about the culture in the business. But they're streets quite unique in that respect. You don't get a lot of suppliers at industry events, get up on stage and talk about the culture in their business. They will often talk about, you know, how they support the culture in agency. But I think one thing I really love watching you guys grow is you guys, it's felt to me like you guys feel like, for one of a better phrase, like a proper tech company in terms of you see how big goal ambitious tech companies are built right around culture, but also, you They've got that culture, they've got an objective, but also the brand. I mean, you guys, the marketing from even early doors has been really sharp. I mean, you guys have very much latched onto that Apple kind of aesthetic, but why the fuck not? 'Cause it comes across beautifully, but it felt like to me, you guys, you guys felt like one of the first tech companies where, Like I said, it was it put you on stage in the enormous sphere that is tech. - Yeah. - And you guys would look phenomenal in pretty much any sector. Whereas I think a lot of suppliers and again, tech companies within our industry kind of get, I don't know, they try away from talking too much about themselves Or maybe it's because they don't know that that culture and structure is there. I don't know. But for me, watching you guys on your ascendancy, it's really felt like watching a very unique and quite special business in the space doing quite... And it is, but it comes from the fact, I think, that we are a SaaS business, so software as a service. it's a coincidence that our client base are estate agents. And I think people coming into our business and the biggest shock that they have, especially if they've got an industry background, is they come in and they think that they're in a property business and we're not we're a tech business and our clients are estate agents. And that's very different. So everything that we do internally, every process comes from a tech perspective, all our meetings, our terminology, our jargon, meeting cadence, all the approaches that we have come from that sphere. So and the culture. I think that's quite unusual. I think a lot of suppliers in the industry, again, a bit like a lot of people fall into being an agent, as we've talked about much earlier on, think a lot of people kind of fall into being a supplier. They identify a thing within the business or they see someone doing something and they're like, actually, I quite like that move adjacent or whatever it is. But I think they very much are like, okay, I'm building this product for estate agents to sell to estate agents, we're a property business. Like you said, we're a property business selling a product for estate agents rather than we're a tech company where it just so happens that your clients are estate managers. - If you compare any of, I mean, even if we're just talking UK tech companies, one of the foundational parts of their business and it is the culture and coming back to the culture, that's where we play so much emphasis. So like I say, it starts incredible recruitment process, operating principles absolutely second to none in terms of making sure that everybody's kind of reliable, open, trustworthy. We default to open. Tom and Heather have always done that as a business because ultimately how can you expect, no matter what job somebody's doing in the business, how can they be expected to make a day-to-day decision and know why we're doing something if they don't understand the strategy, the direction, the numbers. - Yeah. - The reason is-- - If you don't know where the business is going, how the hell do you know how to get help? - There are so many businesses out there that try and keep everything closed off. And you know where the senior team are in a glass box. And there's none of that happens because, and that ultimately creates a culture that they want to be a part of because they can understand it, they get the direction and it feels safe and it feels exciting and it feels like they can really add value and they know where they can add value. And having that makes a big difference, making sure that there's decent leaders in place to make sure that that's carried out is really important as well. And I think leadership is often underestimated in terms of business. I think you can have an impactful kind of new start to come in and cause a problem. If you've made a bad hire, that can cause a problem quite quickly. But if you've got a poor leader, - Yeah. - That is, it's even worse. I think that's something that we really try make sure is okay and I back to university when I did psychology that I did a lot around attachment theory and attachment theory typically is around romantic relationships and I could talk all day around attachment theory I find it really interesting but it plays a real part in how people operate so somebody's attachment kind of personality will play a part in terms of how they receive feedback, how they will participate in meetings, how they will contribute to workload, earn out, whether they will be defensive, whether they and there's, there's lots of things that I think are underestimated within kind of scaling a business and scaling teams. And this is the kind of challenges that we've, we've overcome to make the, the culture within there as, as good as we can. And, and obviously the products speak for themselves, but yeah, the culture, I think without both of them, we wouldn't be where we are today. No, it's... And I don't think that that won't come as a surprise to most people. I've admired Heather and Tom for a long time. I love how they do it. And like I said, the team, you guys around them and watching you guys grow, it's a joy to behold. It's nice to see. It's nice to see. I think good qualities, good products help agents be better agents, help our industry move on as well. So it's not just nice now being in the supplier space as well, seeing a supplier kind of really lead from the front, but also you guys giving agents the tools to be the best they can be is awesome. We're going to need to start wrapping this up. So there's a couple of things I wanted to do. So, 2026, any sneak peek hints at what we can kind of expect from the street group this year? I think firstly we've got an incredibly exciting year in that we've built a lot of functionality in suspectors we're talking about that hasn't kind of had the the pleasure of going out to the the client base as of yet. So we're going to make sure that that is in the client base as much as possible. The email marketing, social media, property reports, everything in relation to that. But at the minute because we've done that with inspector, we've kind of not caught up in embedding that within Spectre and Street. So our focus is going to be making sure that those two products are fully embedding and integrating them. Fully integrating online just so that agents can get the absolute best out of the kind of operational running of the business from the street side but then also obviously the marketing and business generation from the Spectre side and we think yeah we needed to to bolster Spectre into being able to do that and add the two together. So that's going to be our main focus. But as always, I mean, we, we on average do about 63 deployers a day. So we're not going to, we're not going to sit on our hands. No, busy, busy, busy as it should be. And then probably just, just last thing to round things up because we are both supporters of an event coming up in March, which is the, we are not a conference. The women in the state agency not a conference. So look, I've talked several times about this event because it's, it really, it has become alongside the esters for quite obvious reasons. But it has become one of my favourite events of the year because, again, most like, you know, most like we've been talking about how you guys kind of stepped up and kind of raised the game a little bit in terms of culture and strategy and branding and everything else. We are landed, it'll be four years, is it four years this March, I think? This will be the fourth? - One, two, three, yes, there's fourth, yes. That's it though, I think that's all the difference. - Yeah, exactly. - Venues, but yeah. - So yeah, I think this will be the fourth one. And like I said, again, a bit like you guys kind of shook things up, it felt like that lamb did, not only at a really important time for women in a state agency, and it was really, I think it was really important and great to see a real spotlight put on, on that, but in a very open way. But also to kind of re-imagine the whole what is a conference or not a conference. We've just come out of peak conference season as we all do. I think we all clawed over. What was it? It was around the last one, ran was the last one. And yeah, I think, you know, we all get to Christmas and for those of us who like a party or two or tend to sponsor pretty much every single event, you know, it's a busy time of year and we all talk, we're not gonna delve into the pros and cons of every conference on the industry circuit, but what is lovely about we here is it is a totally different event, not just in terms of obviously the topic, but you know, like you guys said, you're a tech company that just happens to sell to property people. And I've said before, the Weir event is a conference or it's an event that just happens to be, again, for estate agents. It feels like as an event, anyone, anyone could go to the Weir event, regardless of industry and come out and be empowered with knowledge, whether you're with your male or female in that room. Yeah, completely. And so yeah, just just tell me a little bit, you know, what do you guys think about Weir? I mean, we've both been sponsors, obviously you guys have been a little bit more front of the centre over the years, but we've both been backing the event and with it, you know, only a couple of months away. Yeah, what are your thoughts? - Yeah, I mean, firstly, I think it is an incredible event. It's an absolute joy to go to. It's one that you really look forward to. Normally, when I look forward to going to an event, and I do all of them, but it's more of the party environment and the drinks afterwards and seeing where is actually the difference, I think, with the viewers. - There's an amazing after party sponsor this year. (laughing) It's so awesome. I have no idea who they are. What's the press soon, but I've heard they're incredible. - They're incredible. So, you get double army. (laughing) You get double army. Typically, like genuinely with the the weir events you think about what you're gonna see what speakers Are gonna be on and just the the whole vibe. I mean we sponsored We are right from like you say the very beginning and It was in this small kind of back room and I remember everybody worried at the time that the men I think of we can't go to that because it's You know And I straight away fired off an email was like And I didn't know whether I was gonna get that like that email back of like It's women There was a lot obviously of women that first year I think a lot of people thought that way okay the men are allowed to the point where Obviously, there's always a queue outside the women's toilets, isn't there? And it got to the point where there were so few men at it that they just thought, "We'll use the men's as well." And it was just a funny observation where you think, "Right, there are a huge amount of women in this venue." Because I think that first, yeah, I think there was like 20 guys, not even that. 15, 20 guys in the room. Which I think, look, for the first one... To be expected, absolutely. And to be right, I think had it been like 50/50 or close to that, it would have been a bit weird, I think first event. I think it was right. It was right and the venue was lovely and it was intimate and they filled it, you know, in their first kind of foray out into it, they sold out. And it was just really nice and refreshing, you know, in terms of content. And that first year they had a lot of the speakers were within industry and shared experiences. I loved it. Wasn't that like, oh, here's how you increase your fee. No. Here's how you land an extra instruction. It was, again, it's come out to that thing. It was culture. It was identity. It was empathy. It was learning. I mean, we've always, as base, we've always been a pretty forward-leaning company. Starting a business with Ann, there was never a moment in time when any of my questions about whether we business together had anything to do with whether she had a you know whether she was male or female and you know there have been times where I've been the only man in the company. There was one point I think where we had like six or seven of us and I was the only bloke and so for me it was fascinating but even despite that you know that very first one there was so much I learned and not only as a boss, as a manager, as a founder, whatever, but also as a husband, as a father to a daughter as well. Like the things that I've come to understand, some enlightening and empowering, fascinating, some utterly horrendous and terrifying, and I'm not necessarily even talking about the individual stories that we've heard which are harrowing but also amazing kind of stories of survival really but I think also how commonplace these incidents are maybe not on the biggest of scales but you know there was quite a bit of talk that the guys were chatting about it on the Klaffar podcast the other day and Toby did the column about it you know the conference again we're talking about conferences and drinking and the drinking culture you know unfortunately you know we still hear the same old mamas the same old um oh they're not mamas the the pretty shocking stories that that still emerge secretly quietly behind closed doors after each of these events which are still all too common um but yeah no it's it's sorry slightly went off on a tangent there, but it is a very empowering and inlifting and like I said, I have learned so much going to those, not just business, home, family, understanding my mom, my sister, my wife, my daughter better, as well as my business partner and the team we run around out. I think it's, yeah, it's one of those ones like if you, you know, it is a women's conference and it should absolutely be predominantly women at the event. I still firmly believe that, but it is absolutely essential that guys are in that room and that guys educate themselves just to be a little bit better. You're not going to walk out that conference and suddenly go from being a mediocre manager of the opposite sex to suddenly being the greatest ally and champion. But if you come out, you will come out of there having a better grasping and understanding of just some of the challenges that the opposite sex face. Yeah, 100%. I mean, there's so many women out there that walk at night with the keys between the knuckles and you think that men don't necessarily realize that. I remember watching this video and I was like she was even thinking when she was going running it was even like oh I do my hair so people can't grab my hair and I'm like how how is that a thing like as guys it's like you know anyway we're too late to talk to go down this thing and it's and And also I don't want guys who haven't been to the event to think that that's all it's about. It's not stories of... That was the point I wanted to make as well. Yeah, it's not all like that. There are so many inspiring stories in there. There are incredible... Just things that get you thinking about the language that you use, how you run your teams, your empathy, you know, and so much more. - Yeah, look, if you are a guy watching this and you haven't been to the Women in the State Agency conference and you're kind of thinking what is the one or two events this year I would do, I would categorically say, gotta be. - Definitely up there. - Gotta be, it's gotta be right up near that very top of your list 'cause you will learn stuff. You will come out at that having your eyes open to a certain degree and you will go, oh, oh shit, I do that. Or like, well, you know, you actually want to come out and be like, actually, I feel pretty good. I went in there worried that I'm a pretty lousy manager in that respect, but actually I'm doing an all right job. It's not about, yeah, it's not just about what we're doing wrong, it's about. - No, I think the measure of it is ultimately you don't get anybody who goes to Weer and doesn't go to the following year. - Yeah. off like that that's enough to kind of suggest everything that you take away from it and how good it is. So at the top of my head I can't remember what date it is in March. I think so I'm going to say around the 10th, 5th? Someone like that. 5th? I should know because we normally go after straight away. But honestly if you haven't been go if you're a leader, if you're a manager, maybe even do a pool If you're a bigger company, buy a bunch of tickets, get a couple of senior leaders to go, but take some of the team as well. We took our whole team last year and I think we'll probably do the same again this year and everyone, everyone came away with different things from the event, but absolutely loving it. And it is nothing like any of the other ones. Like I said, you're not going to sit there and hear about instruction rates or fees or you know, all the stuff that, and nothing wrong with that stuff, but there are lots of sources of information where you can go and learn that from Chris Watkin to EA Masters to the Guild to whatever. There's lots of content out there to teach you that and this is something really different. So yeah, if you haven't been for, go to the We website, find your tickets, book your tickets, have a great day, see you there. Maybe for an after party. Don't know, I think we've pretty much run out of time but this has been an absolute joy. It's been a pleasure. It always is. I get out with you. It always is good. Great fun. Thank you for having me. Thank you for braving the travel down to see us Southern monkeys down here. It's absolute pleasure and yeah it's as cold here today as it is normally up north so I feel quite at home with it. It's fine. Yeah I'm still rocking my t-shirt and my jacket though. It's Thanks for coming down. Absolutely enjoy. Guys, thanks for joining us. Yeah, tune in next time, another one coming soon. Hope you enjoyed that. Bye.