salty bake club

The Science of Surrender: Rethinking Sleep and Stillness - with Maria With Hoen

• sara grace • Season 1 • Episode 20

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Here is where you get in touch. Work with me, share your experience or requests > this is how to reach me. Love, - Sara

What if the most grounded version of you appears when the labels fall away? Sitting at Maria’s kitchen table—with baby clothes nearby and a cardamom bun between us—we explore how a founder, student, teacher, and mother allowed roles to loosen so something deeper could surface: steady presence in the middle of a sleep regression and a life pause.

Maria takes us back to Bolivia, where a near-death fall dissolved time and lit up a fierce love for living. The ledge that caught her body reoriented her soul. Recovery brought surgeries, trauma, and sleepless nights, but also a lifelong devotion to sleep science and nervous system regulation. We break down how rest is invited, not forced: why alpha to delta shifts matter, how the glymphatic system “washes” the brain, and why a vigilant amygdala and shaky hormones make everything feel harder. Then we get practical—micro habits that anchor under stress, a single grounding visualization, and the small daily rituals that become traits.

We also challenge the glow of the screen. Blue light is only part of the problem; your phone smuggles your whole world into bed. Learn how evening swipes steal tomorrow’s energy and why those first five minutes after waking are prime time to train your attention, not outsource it. Ten minutes of Yoga Nidra can refuel fragmented nights. And beyond the biohacking, we widen the lens: a “mass insomnia of the soul” where we skip wintering and wonder why dreams fracture. Especially for women, seasonality matters; integration is not idleness—it’s wisdom. Sometimes the bravest creative act is to stop, let the nervous system downshift, and allow the next chapter to ripen.

If you’re tired, in-between, or quietly rebuilding, this conversation offers science, story, and soft structure to support you. Subscribe, share with a friend who needs rest without guilt, and leave a review telling us one small ritual you’ll try tonight.

Sara:

Maria, welcome to Salty Bay Club. I am so so so thankful that we have carved out this time. I know the time is a very valuable thing at the moment. Scarce resource. Yeah. No, it's an abundance. End of our week together. We have made it, and I'm so, so glad that we get to speak about some things because you are truly one of the most inspiring people in my life. So naturally, I really wanted my community to hear a little bit about your wisdom, your radiance, your story. So happy to be here, be a part of the club, the Doe. You are a mother. You co-founded a startup here in Oslo. You studied clinical psychology. You are a mindfulness practitioner, a yoga teacher, such an inspiring woman. But for most of all, I would love for the listeners to hear from you. What do you feel like you are in this current state or this chapter of life?

Maria:

Oh wow. It's uh it's an interesting question just because of where I am right now, because I'm really in somewhat of an in-between state, especially in regards to how we usually define ourselves. Yeah. Um, like you mentioned, uh, I've co-founded a startup and I'm also studying clinical psychology. Uh, and that was like a huge part of my identity for such a long time. And um the startup was a sleep tech startup. So I'm passionate about all things sleep and nervous system regulation, which I'm sure we'll get back to. Um, and we did the whole investor thing, we did the prototypes, it was a high-tech product, and um we were on pretty much a good track to success, I think.

Sara:

I loved what you do. I was such a fangirl.

Maria:

Yeah, really. Yeah. You know, I was too. I was really looking forward to having this product that we were creating. Uh, but then in our second funding round, we started struggling. And this was also at a time where I'd had my first child. And um after a long um long battle, I would say, because we really didn't want to put it down. Yeah. And we really had to put our egos aside and also trust in the timing of things, I guess. But at one point we had to put it to rest. And so I'm not a co-CEO anymore. And all of a sudden. Yeah, all of a sudden. Um, but I'm a mother of two now, and uh my studies are also on hold. I just have the last practicum. Yeah. And my thesis left. And so when you ask, like, who am I? Then it's really like not none of the labels really um uh really fit me anymore, which makes me have to dig a little deeper for that question.

Sara:

It's so beautiful because yes, none of the labels that you might have identified for a period of time so intensively work or apply at the moment. I have known you for we've been the friends for seven years. Yes. And I love the numbers. That's my that's my luck number. Yeah, yeah. Oh seven years. Wow, and I have never seen you so grounded. Oh wow. Like so within yourself, even though I know I've just yeah, been in your life for seven days. Yeah. And in the middle of a sleep regression in my second child and like baby clothes everywhere. I know how wild that time is and how how easy. Like I adore and admire, and I just value so much to see you in your presence, in in in just the beautiful human that you are without having any of these labels to apply. I just love being here with you. I love you so much. I love you. Turn the camera. Also, we are sitting here, we're having a cardamom bun. Uh-huh. But if I would bake you something that would have to embody you, I I thought about this a lot yesterday when I was on the walk with Noah.

Maria:

Yeah.

Sara:

And I was like, it can't be just a regular cake. Like it's gotta be something mystical. Oh something that is that has a lot of layers. And then I came up with a millefleur. Do you know that pastry? Oh no. Okay, it's it's like it's something like it's got a ton of layers. And you when you bite into it, it's like crunchy. But then I wouldn't do the regular one. I would just probably infuse some of the layers with cardamom and rose or lavender. I'm not fully.

Maria:

Whoa, rose or lavender. That is not what we're talking. You've gotta actually make me this someday. Feel honored.

Sara:

Yeah, yeah. I will at some point. Yes. But for now, we'll have a cardamom bun. And I am again so lucky. Delicious. We're sitting here down in your beautiful home and just having a little bit of a talk. All right. So a couple of days ago you still had two kids under two. Yes. We just celebrated the birthday, the second birthday of your oldest son. Yeah. And they are who you are the godmother of.

Maria:

And fairy godmother. She has that vibe.

Sara:

As much fairy vibes as I can in the altar is life. In that phase right now, what grounds you the most?

Maria:

I have to say, the children in themselves, they are such presence machines, you know? Like I don't think you can you have to fight it if we're gonna be with a child all day and not be present at all.

Sara:

Yeah.

Maria:

Which I think happens so often, right? Like how many people do not know how to be present. Yes. And then have a child. Yeah.

Sara:

And that just brings up friction and struggle. I know. Yeah, and I think I'm right now benefit benefiting a lot from the habits I've had for a long time and all the rituals that were such a big part of my life for a long time. Um, especially in regards to, you know, I've we've talked a lot about this, but morning and evening rituals. I'm all about morning and evening and uh sleep and um uh and a lot of these rituals are a bit difficult for me to carve out time for these days, like a proper one-hour meditation. It's just not possible right now. Yeah. Um, but so many of the tools are just have become sort of part of who I am. So if I'm stressed, there's just an automatic visualization of a grounding cord going into the center of the earth. And there are just uh deep breaths and uh intentions of love that I speak without thinking of it in my mind during breastfeeding. And um, and truly also I think it's a season of my life that is calling me to really lean into support and trust in all my relationships, and that in itself is a huge grounding thing for me. Yeah, beautiful. And I will add to this that you are one of the most dedicated wellness practitioners. I don't even want to confirm it to yoga that I have seen, because I like again, I've seen you so often in many, many parts of your life. There was always this force that connected you to the source, right? So I really want to underline what you said in the beginning of that you did those practices for such a long time and with so much devotion that now they're just you can use them in those seconds, right? Those micro moments. And that wouldn't be possible if you wouldn't have walked that path before. Yeah. Which is just so inspiring and beautiful to see.

Maria:

Micro moments.

Sara:

Micro moments, micro habits. Yeah.

Maria:

And I think what you're saying there is so important also, um, because a lot of people, and I can at least I relate to that myself, in the beginning, you can feel so intimidated because it seems like you have to make this huge shift um to um get all these habits that you hear about up and going, and uh it can seem so far out of reach, and especially if you think that I have to do this every day for the rest of my life and just create like a rigid routine. But in fact, like tiny shifts are super powerful, and you can do certain rituals for a certain amount of time, and it can still have like a lasting effect on you longer than just the time you're doing the habits.

Sara:

And I want to get into that more when we speak more about the nervous system and sleep. But for now, let's descend into story. We all know that story is a major part of my my life and how I want to do this. And you have such an incredible one. You have walked a path and uh had a journey that could fill books, that should fill books. Like there should have there should be a book about you already. Wow. I also want to highlight again that you are certainly like with such certainty, I can say that you are one of the most radiant persons I know. And the the most radiant or bright people have usually been to the underworld. Right. Those people have noticed and seen and heard something from life that is not out there in the daylight, but they brought it back to the daylight. And so have you. And I would love for you to share a little bit about your journey, especially that initiation moment of when you were to the underworld and what you brought back to the and what you got initiated into through that.

Maria:

Yeah. It was a true moment of initiation. And in a way, I feel very lucky to have had that one so clearly defined moment, although it sort of extended into a much bigger uh story, obviously. But um, when I just turned 20, I was in a near-death accident, and it was quite dramatic. I was biking um along the death road in Bolivia, which is like cliff, tiny road, cliff, and I lost control of the bike and I fell off the cliff. And in that one moment when I went off, I just saw you know, like 50 meters into nothingness, and I really had an acceptance in that moment, like I'm I'm actually dying. And obviously I didn't. Let's just get to that part in case you were wondering. Um because right where I fell, there was actually this tiny little ledge after like nine meters that caught me, but I didn't see it. So I went up this cliff and just saw it straight into the big, big valley. In that moment, I think you just your ego just leaves out the door. And um, and I didn't have like a life review or uh uh or um, you know, like time really slowed down or anything, but time just stopped existing. And in that moment I just feel like I could feel my entire life. And from such a uh like space where my energy was not contained to my body, and I just I could speak for a long time about those precious few seconds, but disclaimer people, yeah. Either this is like a major call for us to just put all perfectionism aside. Oh my god. I think that resonates with me a lot more than the oh, it's because you're not ready, because this is literally what we're talking so much about. This is literally what putting the ego aside to just be of service in some way. Yeah, just gonna go and take it as an initiation of its own into our uh letting go of the perfectionism around this. But yeah, that moment, and there are so many things that I could say about that moment. Um, but I will say two things. And the one is that obviously it was a huge like spiritual initiation because it was like an instant download of so many things that I think are true for all on like an energy level, and that you really feel when sense of time dissolves, when that barrier between you and the rest of the universe really just poofs. Um, and the other one is that I'd never known, I never knew how much I wanted to live and how much I loved my life and how perfect everything was, even moments of struggle and hardships. Um, I never knew how perfect they were before that moment.

Sara:

Can you share something about that?

Maria:

Yeah. Um, for example, I grew up with a very sick father. He had Parkinson's disease. And I always obviously thought of sickness as a bad thing. And in that moment, I just realized just the sacredness of it, and how I was really I had really chosen that experience and how much just like you said, the layers of every experience we have, and how in that moment of oneness I didn't rate any of my experiences in life like better or worse than any others. And it was kind of like a funny paradox there because another part of me was like heartbroken over how much of my precious life energy I'd spent thinking I was not enough or that something needed to happen, or I needed to arrive somewhere or become something other than what I already was before I could live with like true happiness and peace in my heart. Because in that moment I realized that that was never true, and everything was perfect, and I was so lucky to be here on this planet, having this one life, but then even that was perfect, you know. So it was like all these layers, oh, but there was this longing. I was like, oh, I wish I could just sit in this life for one more minute, feeling it all while knowing this truth. And right as I sort of I didn't even think it, but I just felt it. And I can put it into words after. But right as that sort of thought hit me, I landed on this little ledge that I didn't see. And I s I mean it was a nightmare fall onto rock hard ground, and uh I smashed my spine, had multiple fractures in every part of my body, but um but but in that moment I only felt euphoria. Am I really getting this gift of life again? And I don't think you ever come back the same from something like that.

Sara:

Yeah.

Maria:

But that doesn't mean that life won't like grab you and you have to go back to normal life and um um and you have to sort of find out how to integrate an experience like that into still being on this planet and uh um relate. Yes.

Sara:

Yeah. So what parts of that initiation stayed and what parts or glimpses are fading and coming back, fading and coming back?

Maria:

I think what is constant for me is this um like deep knowing that sometimes is like hidden under some layers, but under there there's always this knowing that everything is perfect and so beautiful, and I can't really mess up. I can't really uh yeah, it's it's all so beautiful. Um and what comes and goes is the connection I had in that moment to my power, to the power we were all born with. Yeah. Because that was also something I felt in that moment. I was like, I never realized that I can mold this life into anything I want. And we are so much more powerful than we could ever imagine. And that connection sort of comes and goes, and I forget or I sort of like stop, I don't stop believing in it, but I just like I don't always know like how to make it accessible, if that makes sense.

Sara:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, just in yoga, I speak so much about Maya, right? The folk that we're all trying to see through because we don't see reality as it is. We we just have this blurry vision of life, and we think that's true, and so many people are okay with that. But then there are moments in, of course, different varieties and um and layers that rip us out and that just clear the fog for a moment. Yeah. And then we have a remembrance. Yes. And then it's on us to clear our our vision, our perspective, ourselves, our bodies, again and again so we get a little more clear.

Maria:

Yeah. I love that. It's the remembering. That moment was remembering. And the big practice to sort of maintain, or even I would say honor that moment for me is to sit down and remember how it felt to think I was dying. Yeah.

Sara:

And to Was that scary in the beginning?

Maria:

No.

Sara:

Wow.

Maria:

It was actually never scary to remember that moment. There were other parts of it that were traumatic, but that one moment never the free falling never felt scary. It felt like a incredible gift.

Sara:

What did it bring to your life as in when you look at the person that you are now and the path you've walked ever since? Or what direction did it turn you towards? And what's the things that entered your life because of that? For hardship and for for you know the struggles that come with such an experience, because there's so much heartache and pain. Yeah. When talking of it as something that gave you so much good, but then I also really want to validate and and and voice that there is so much heaviness that you have had to process because of that. So with all that, the good and the bad, what what direction did it guide your life into?

Maria:

Well, I did pause everything. Like, you know, I was just out of high school and um I was going to uni in a couple of months, and this was my like gap year. And um, and uh everything was just paused because I was on bed rest and I had to have multiple back surgeries over the next couple of years, had a fused spine, and uh couldn't walk for a long time, and there was a lot of uncertainty if I would ever recover properly, if I could ever function like I did before. And um that combined with such uh like big trauma, i obviously my nervous system was a whack. Uh and uh I also had some complications with a screw, a metal screw that went into my um spinal cord, and uh and a couple of other things that really shook me. And uh one of the things that were really hard for me in that time was sleep.

Sara:

Yeah.

Maria:

And I couldn't sleep, I had nightmares, and uh but it also drove me into like a like I have to figure this out. And I really took it as a mission, like to find a way to heal because I'd felt the truth that it was possible in a way. And uh and so one of the things I did was like dive in headfirst into all information and also all experiments I could do on my own sleep to sleep better. So it really started this um this huge, I'd say almost like a love affair, an obsession on all things sleep and nervous system regulation, which I'm still so passionate about until this day. If everything's wrecked in the body, where do you even begin to heal? Um and I truly think that the nervous system is the true foundation of our health, really the true foundation of our lives. Like not just how our bodies function and how our mind uh is doing, but also how we show up in our relationships and for our purpose, our work, everything. And what I love about sleep is that it's both such a good mirror to how your nervous system is doing a lot of the time. That's true. It's been true for me at least, but it's also a key part of the medicine. So sleep problems are not usually about just sleep isolated, right? It's about stress and and um to sleep, like you can't force sleep, you have to invite it in. You really have to do that by encouraging this shift from the sympathetic nervous system to the parasympathetic nervous system. And a body that doesn't feel safe won't do that, it will stay in alert mode. And one thing is my experience where my body was like really heightened and this like truly life-threatening thing had happened and was really still going on. Um but today there are so many things that really push our nervous system towards alertness that for so many of us we have to be more intentional about supporting that shift. Yeah.

Sara:

I want to take it so far and say even culturally, we live in I don't know, I feel like it feels like there's a mass insomnia of the soul.

Maria:

Oh!

Sara:

There is like so many people can't rest or struggle to rest because we've been living so one-sided. We have so much many sympathetic triggers in our lives. Yeah. Yeah, so I think it's a very, very personal experience that can be translated on almost global there.

Maria:

I think nearly everyone experienced some part of this, not necessarily through sleep problems, but it's a very universal uh thing that our uh species is really going through right now.

Sara:

And if you let's for now just stick to a psychological or nervous system perspective on the coming question. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Um what happens if I'm not able to rest?

Maria:

Well, if you're unable to rest and you're stuck in this sort of fight-flight mode, you don't get the benefits of this deep um rest and healing work that sleep really is. And so, yes, it's important to rest throughout the day as well. There are many different kinds of rests. We won't take it there, but when you rest, uh there are so many things happening in your brain and body. Like your brain is literally getting a full washout from your lymphatic system that like cleanses out so much of the leftover toxins from all your brain activity in the day that is like dusting up your brain and really making it hard to see clearly and experience life with that presence and energy you normally do.

Sara:

Can you for a moment take us into the field of brain waves and what happens then there?

Maria:

Yes, of course.

Sara:

I think that's a very interesting fact.

Maria:

Yeah. So when you sleep, your brain waves change into like way slower, uh more synchronized waveforms. We call them alpha at the beginning, and the different stages of sleep uh are differentiated by the difference in these brain waves. So when you are in deep sleep, you have these super slow, like yeah, valleys and and uh height and like hills. Well, when you're dreaming, they're much more like rapid. And when if you if you can't rest, you're sort of stuck between the sort of more erratic beta states than the alpha state. Is that what you were sort of absolutely yeah? Because there are so many ways we could take these questions.

Sara:

I really wanted to then say that the the science that we have here, how we can measure these brain waves and how you just so beautifully describe them will right away translate into sim symbology, right? Like just imagine waters with very freaking high waves. Yes. And these really deep, steady waves. Yes. I I just think it's always so beautiful how we can- Nature, right? Yeah, it's just right there and it says it all, and then we we luckily now we have science and be like, uh-huh, right. There are some parallels here. Yeah. Yeah. So then what happens when we're not rested? We can't see and we can't act clearly anymore, because then obviously that affects our nervous system. And uh what does that do in our daily life?

Maria:

Well, I think less energy is a very obvious one, but you'll also have like the more active amygdala and emotional brain, lower cognitive uh skills that can be like very clearly measured, and memory and not to mention hormones are so highly affected by sleep. Uh I know you've had Pauline on here, the amazing Pauline.

Sara:

She's a friend of both of us. Yeah. Hi, Pauline.

Maria:

Hi, Pauline, we love you. And um those are so so everything in your body really benefits um from from getting enough sleep. There's not a single system in your body and not a single function of the brain that isn't sadly very negatively impacted, or at least negatively impacted if you don't get enough sleep over a long amount of time.

Sara:

And quality sleep, right?

Maria:

That's a very important thing.

Sara:

So now from a very practical in your life precision, what happens when you don't sleep? Oh, because there's a little wonder.

Maria:

It's a little miracle waking me up every hour this day.

Sara:

Just practically in life, what did you what did you notice, when strip away all the science?

Maria:

Well, I'm way more reactive, I think. But I will say this. Okay, I say way more reactive, but I will also say that um because I think the conversation around sleep and like a lot of people are waking up to the importance, literally and figuratively, uh, to the importance of sleep these days. Um but I know for some people that can also cause anxiety around like not sleeping as much. Uh so I think a very important point to pull out is that the human body is incredible. And uh you can uh you can survive. I don't know if I would say I'm thriving right now, waking up every hour, but I'm doing quite well. And it's been going on for some time.

Sara:

Two years.

Maria:

Yeah, on and off without the like regular um Eight hour intervals that I would prefer getting. That obviously makes it even more important for me to find rest in other ways. So I get a lot of energy from just feeling into the all the love that is in my family right now and from nature and from like short practices of Yoga Nidra that really fuel me up with just 10 minutes. Yes. So, you know, I know the community here is also a part of like they know about the energy system and that there are multiple sources of fuel for us and nothing can replace sleep. Yes. But remember if you are in a season where getting enough sleep is difficult for you, either if it's because of sleep problems or uh or circumstances that are difficult to control, then just remember that you you will be fine. And I think that's also so important because uh the fear of not getting enough sleep will for sure make it more difficult to sleep. Absolutely. Yeah. And that's part of the the mind talk you have about sleep and the sleep associations, which play a huge role in the nervous system's ability to uh to enter that state of rest.

Sara:

Yeah. And when you're caught in the mind, right, then you're not in the body anymore and your body can't relax in that way, you can't sleep. So if you're if you're caught up here, try to get back into your body. And also what I want to add to what you just said, yes, you can source rest from tiny pockets in your day, like with a Yoga Nitra and just observing you the past week. I think it's so beautiful how you do that. But you have to make a conscious and loving effort. Yeah. And I think that's really important because so many people they they will be on their phone for an hour before they go to sleep and then wonder why they can sleep. Yeah. You have to make that effort to change up your body support in resting.

Maria:

Such a key thing. And I you know I'm very um passionate about the subject of screen time when it comes to both the last half hour hour before bed, but also the first half hour in the morning.

Sara:

Exactly. Tell us why that is so important.

Maria:

Well, in the evening, I'll start there. The phone is not just stealing time, it's really stealing tomorrow's energy. And that's because of the way it is designed. One thing is the blue light, which I think a lot of people are more aware of these days. But you can't just put on blue light blockers and then the problem is solved because it's really more what the phone represents to the brain. That's one part of it. Yeah. And then it's the design of it, which is truly like the dopamine activating uh thing that is like truly putting your body into the sympathetic response. And what it responds, you're like, you can see if people just see their phone, you can see on like an MRI and brain scans that these areas for all these different areas of life light up. So things that would normally represent your finances, because you're used used to deal with dealing with your bank things from your phone and your social life. And so you're really inviting your whole world and all your obligations into your bedroom and your precious last moments. That can activate you. For some people, it makes it difficult to fall asleep. But even those who fall asleep easily, it will it's very likely to be doing something to your sleep quality. And I don't know about you, but I'm very interested in maximizing those hours I actually get to sleep. I want to be like good quality sleep. And in the morning, it um it really primes your attention system for the rest of the day.

Sara:

I notice that a lot.

Maria:

Yeah, because your brain waves are still in this like really slow alpha waves the first five, ten minutes you wake up. And when that's the case, you are more impressionable. So if you take those five minutes to just it could be take five really deep breaths just to signal to your nervous system that uh you're safe. Yeah. That will have a bigger impact than doing them randomly during the or although that's powerful too. Or if it's um evoking an emotion that you want more of in your life, you will train those circuits. And when you take your phone out, you're really priming your brain for distraction and a lot of the marketing and stuff on your phone. Like that's it's a sad part of the business, I guess, but it's really putting some signals that oh, you're not enough, like you're not doing enough of these things that everyone else are doing, and uh you should be buying this before you're enough. I just think that's a very unfortunate thing to be taking into your brain. Yeah. And you will differ in sensitivity to this. Um there was I think that was like a huge thing for me when I was when I was in the years of recovery, and I was so sensitive. Really, just looking at my phone would trigger a sense of unease. I could not look at it at all for the last hour of the day. And I needed meditation and guided relaxation to help me make that switch from sympathetic to parasympathetic. Um while right now I'm not as sensitive. So I can reply to a message before bed, but I try not to do it. And now these things are such ingrained in me as well. So they come very naturally.

Sara:

Yeah. I think it's so important to know when you need your tools. Yes. Yeah, and then to have them.

Maria:

To have them and know that they exist. If you're struggling with sleep, know that there are things you can do. Either I think Yoga Nidra is a fantastic, phenomenal example where you can really you can measure this. Um brain scans on it on on um like the yeah, lots of different signals in your body that this is a practice that helps the brain go from analytical, like turned on, to deep, more rest and digest states.

Sara:

Yeah. And you can also even use that not only for sleep, right? But if you're a person who's caught in the analytical part of their brain, of their being, of their identification with self, yeah, then these tools might might even help to bring you back to the mythological self, the the softer side, the female side, right?

Maria:

Yeah.

Sara:

Yeah. And also speaking about the mythological, if we don't get rest, yeah, our dreams get fractured. If we don't have these winters every night, yeah. Cyclical nature, we lose the ability to connect with to our deep core, to our intuition, to our higher self, even. So if we just think of that, we lose the connection to our dreams, or our dreams get fractured.

Maria:

Yeah.

Sara:

What would you share from that perspective of it's such a unique and special and and sacred moment where you're at, right? As yes, you don't have perfect sleep. Like even far from that. Yeah. But what does that teach us on uh a global, a cultural level of coming back to our dreams and maybe having times where we allow ourselves that you don't have to make your dreams come true now, act up now. I just think it's so important to honor that, especially as women, there are times in our every month cycle, but also in the bigger scheme of our life where we are not meant to be the balls, babe.

Maria:

Yeah. Definitely feeling that right now.

Sara:

And I think we culturally need to speak more about that because it it's happening. It's happening to our bodies on a physical level. Yeah. But then how do we deal with that emotionally? Yeah. That was a lot, I'm sorry. No, it's a phenomenal thing to dive into because I I really think it's not spoken enough about. And we all want to, you know, we all want to achieve certain things, we all want our lives to be something special. And they are. They are. That's the one thing, like realizing that your life is so special, and the most extraordinary thing you can do with your life, I think, is to find the extraordinary in the ordinary. Yeah.

Maria:

That doesn't mean it's not allowed to like have big dreams and go for them, because hell yeah, I support that. But I do think that for a lot of us, maybe especially women, um, because of our cyclical nature, and I know there will be individual differences. Some people are very go-go, but that there will be times where you're called to slow down. Yes. And I think for me, this call started quite before I really accepted it. Isn't it always like that? Isn't it always like that? Uh it can be, I think the issues that come up obviously are trust and um leaning into that and also recognizing that it's an ego death because we're so used to tying I d tying like uh worth with what we achieve. And it's very cool. I can say that it's it was very cool to be a lot on stage and pitch and have things go well and have things think that what I was doing was cool, and then all of a sudden it's like, what are you doing? And I'm like, right now I'm home with my children, and that's an amazing season of life too. And even I can feel like some sort of the pressure to like start something again, keep going, but then truly, like if I feel in and if I honor my truth right now, I'm really called to sit and integrate. Because without the winters, like you just go and you keep taking in information and you keep but but having the this time for me where I'm just sort of integrating what is true after all these years, what's true for me now? And um and not even well obviously I'm wondering a bit like what's next, but then I'm laughing at myself or like even wondering and trusting that will it will unfold. And then again, we're back with the layers because it's the fact that I'm also trying to trust that even if it doesn't unfold that's that's okay too. Maybe, maybe that's the path that I sort of imagined myself on wasn't for me. Um but I'm also honoring like honoring this time to just uh really reconnect with my heart because I think you know, one of the true pleasures of being human is connecting to your heartfelt desires and then shedding the layers that are keeping you from either seeing them in a clear light or going for them with all your power in a way.

Sara:

I think you do that so beautifully in life. Thank you. Again, all the shades, all the layers, yeah, all the times and seasons of your life that will always look different throughout life. Yeah. The fact that there is a drive, the fact that there is a longing and you you walk towards it.

Maria:

Yeah. There's always, if you look in, there's always a longing. And if it's not, it might not look like the uh like what you think it should look like. But it's just right now, I guess my longing is of a sweet kind for just presence and peace and to experience surrender more deeply than I had before.

Sara:

Yeah. And I I wish we could all lean back not do rest more and thus be able to to see uh uh in which season of life am I is what I want to do appropriate right now. Yeah. Right. And that ultimately then connects us so much to what we're here for, yes, and to living each moment that we're given with presence. Yes. With a sweet presence, as you said.

Maria:

Sweet presence. And that does require a little step back sometimes. Yeah.

Sara:

Thank you so much for sharing your story. Yeah. I love you so much. I am sure that everybody who who listens will bask in your knowledge.

Maria:

Oh, that makes me so happy.

Sara:

I really can't wait to do that again.

Maria:

Yes, let's please love the club. Thank you. Thank you.

Sara:

Do you think we covered like a good? Do you think it was good? It was great.