SPODA: Grant Jossi, writer on Avatar: Seven Havens

On this Episode of Spiritual Practices of the Disgruntled Artist, we talk to Grant Jossi! Grant is a writer on the newly announced Avatar show, Seven Havens. We talk to him about how breaking a sweat helps him crack a scene, his relationship to the industry and how he maintains a healthy state of mind. 

Music by Doug Harvey

Transcript

0:11

Hello and welcome to the Spiritual Practices of the Disgruntled Artist Spoa, as we like to call it, SPOA Spoa, where we interview a new artist each episode. And learn how they are keeping themselves sane and spiritually healthy during this especially challenging time to be an artist. Welcome back girls. So last time we had some homework. Olivia, your homework? Mm-hmm. My, okay. My homework was to pull a card every day. Mm-hmm. Which is one of your practices? Yep. And what was your homework to do? Yoga, meditation. Okay. How'd that go? You looking, how'd that go over there? You know, not as great as I, uh, like to say. Okay. That's okay. Here's the thing. I realize I just need to get better. I waking up in the mornings. Mm. And I, I did manage to do some yoga practices here and there. Some were in the morning. A lot of them were after when I got home from work, which is also beautiful and I love that. Mm-hmm. Sunset, you know, kind of yoga. Um, I do like to pair meditation together. I think it works so well. I think that works is just like natural for me or. Sometimes Grant and I will do like literally five minutes, even two minutes sometimes if we're really like tired of meditation right before we go to bed. Mm-hmm. Or we just like sit and just like take two minutes, five minutes to meditate together. Mm-hmm. Um, but it was hard to stay consistent. Yeah. I just wasn't consistent I love yoga so much, and I think when I was like, oh, I'm gonna do yoga every day. I'm thinking I'm, I, I want is to get back into it. Okay. And I think I need a better schedule for it. Yeah, that's right. I think, I think I need to be more disciplined. Yes. I think I was too lackadaisical about it. Mm-hmm. Um, but the days where I was consistent where again, it was in the morning. I think that's just the best time for me personally. I do the yoga and then I go out. Into our little back patio and sit in my favorite little chair, and usually the sun is like streaming right down on me. Mm-hmm. And I would meditate. And did you feel different on those days versus the days when you didn't? Oh yeah. I always do. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I just feel lighter. I just feel better. I think the reason I I crave yoga is it connects me to my body. I'm gonna ask you this again, even though I already asked you. Is there a re do you feel any, is it just that it was hard to work your life around it? Did you feel any resistance to No, I don't think there's no resistance. Yeah, because I do. That's what I'm saying. I love it. I think I just need to be better about, because I just get lazy about it, you know? I, yeah. Committing to it. I got some, you know, a little yoga sessions here and there, but they felt like, oh, I just need to get them in for the sake of this. Mm. For the sake of this, for doing this. Yeah, exactly. And I was like, that's not, yeah, that's not what I wanna do. But it might feel like that until it doesn't. Yeah, absolutely. And, and I allowed it to be that way, but I think in general I'm going to, I'm gonna keep sticking with it. Okay. Because I think I need to. Yeah. There's no downside to it, to me. Yeah. There just isn't any downside Well, I think, I think you just try again. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, let try again. And you did it, you know I did. Yeah. Kind of. I pulled cards. That was your thing that I took. Yes. And first of all, I thought it was good for me because the cards to me can sometimes feel, I think that this is actually like a belief that is in some way ingrained in me that there is something negatively possibly magical about the cars. Oh yeah. That like you can call on spirits that aren't. Good for you. Like there's some belief that I have about it that ha has made me like a little bit afraid. Oh yeah. I was gonna say, are there like cards you're afraid to pull? I think that, I think that that's right. Um, so doing them every day helped me sort of overcome that so I did it for two weeks. I would say I missed, I was pretty consistent. Maybe two days I missed. Sometimes I did it like right before bed, and I, and I asked the question you asked of like, what do I need to hear? Sometimes I asked what do I need to dream about tonight if it was a night? Ooh, I like that. Um, and, and, yeah, I got this card over and over again called The Void. I got it like four or five times, which was really interesting because the, during this time. I, I, I, I cut this thread. We, this thread, right? Yes. Which, the thread for me. Oh, what, real quick, what does the void mean? Just, okay. Yeah. Yes. Just so we can idea. Yes. The void card. Yes, it's, it's a black card there. Looks like there's kind of a little bit of clouds on it. It says the void stop, embrace winter, great cosmic womb. And when you read the description, it's about you are in a state of nothingness and from this state of nothingness, inspiration will be born. And your job is just to embrace the nothingness. Mm. And it was really interesting. Because last time, we were talking about how I had this one little thread that was stopping me from fully trusting that the universe is gonna provide the career that I want. Mm-hmm. And I did a lot of work to like undo the quilt, but there was this one little thread of trying to control the outcome and somehow. I cut the thread. I think after our conversation, I cut the thread and I the way I knew it was because I just felt bored all of a sudden. Like I felt, I had like a, a week or two where I was just like, felt kind of on we, and I was like, oh, it's because I was spending all this mental energy on my career and worrying about it and stressing about it and, and also trying to manifest sick. Mm-hmm. Pray about it, write down the right mantras, like all this stuff, the, the spiritual practices that have become a form of control in some way for me. And then it was all just gone because I just fully trust that it's gonna happen in the right time, that it's meant to happen. And I don't want to ride a wave that's not mine. Like I wanna ride the right wave for me so that not just my career stuff works, but it works with my life. My children. Yeah, my family. Like all of it at one time. So that's the good news is that I feel like the threat has really been cut and I feel like I genuinely trust it's gonna happen at the right time. Um, and because this thread has been cut, I feel like I'm in the void, you know? Yeah. So I think, and that, that card kept coming up for that. And now,'cause I have a space, I've just been putting like a lot of like spiritual and self-help books in there. Like I'm listening to one, I'm reading two of them and it's been really interesting. I just feel like kind of a sponge right now. I have all this space where I was just so worried about this thing and I'm just like, that thing is gonna happen. Like, I don't need to worry about that thing'cause it's just, it is gonna happen. I love that. Yeah, I love that too.'cause I, when I, because you sent me the picture mm-hmm. Of the card. Mm-hmm. And, and the void can seem kind of scary. Yeah. But there is no fear Yeah. Around this, like, how you're feeling. Yeah. And also, it's interesting, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but like this is an interesting kind of boredom. Yes. It doesn't feel like I'm so bored. You know? It's, it's just, it's, it's, it feels like a release. It feels like a. Yeah. Don't, I don't know. I, you know, I love that on the other side of the cutting, the thread is boredom. Yeah. Crazy. I love that. It's, it's that anticlimactic though, you know, like I'm even in my head, I thought it was gonna be like, and now like, I just believe, and like also, I love that it's happening when I mean, things are good, but there's nothing, no parole has fallen from the sky for me at this time. Right. Which I think is good that it happened at a time where everything's just fine, you know? Yeah. Because I don't want it to be tied to like. I had this great success and therefore I can cut the thread. Mm-hmm. I've cut the thread of my own accord, you know? Mm-hmm. And yeah, it is interesting that it wasn't some grand announcement. Right. Right. I love that. And it's been years of the quilts and unraveling the quilts and stressing out the quilts. Yeah. And trying to tear the quilt and throw the quilt to then you open up and it's just this black hole. You're just bored. You're not stressed about, but with it is like endless possibilities. Yeah. And a freedom. And isn't that great? This is great. It is great. I also, there there is something, when the car gets pulled multiple times, I believe in the car, it's more than ever. Yeah. I love to do, uh, card pulling like winter solstice I like to do it with gatherings and it's so funny to me because this will happen where people will pull. And I shuffle. Yeah. People will pull the same card. I don't know if it's like,'cause we're all in the same room or something like that. Or same with me. I get excited when I see a card that I've never seen because a lot of times it's the same one, which is I'm also like, okay, yeah, I know this card. And it's time to, to return to that. Yeah. Return to the void. Return to the void. Yeah. Okay. That's great. Well. Let's bring on, let's bring on first. So we have our first guest on the podcast, and these a special one, introducing Grand Johnson. Um, okay. Why don't you. Minute joke because you're also named him. Yes. Uh, he is, uh, a wonderful person and husband to me personally. No one else that we know of, that we know of. Very different kind of podcast. My spiritual practice is Bigamy, and a writer. He's currently on a new show very popular show, very popular show, very popular franchise. Uh, for those who don't know, he writes. On the new avatar show. Seven Havens. Yeah. Still no announcement date, but that is the show. But now you can say it, which is cool. Yeah, we officially can, which yeah, is is a delight. We don't have to use all our code names anymore. So what were the code? Can we know the code names? I actually don't think you can. Oh. Because there might. Still be some stuff. Yeah. Secrets. Yep. Yep. Uh, were you just terrified? I feel like whenever I have worked on really NDA things, I've always been just scared that for some reason it's just gonna bubble out of me and I'm gonna be like, I'm not, anything I weirdly was protected by how into avatar, everyone around me is because I feel like no one, everyone else aggressively also didn't want spoilers. So that helps. I don't, I've, I don't know, t know anything, doesn't anything really. Yeah. Yes. I want to go like, so. Blind. I wanna go in. I just wanna be blind. I don't wanna be blind, but you know, I wanna go in. Yeah. Being surprised because I be, because I love the Avatar universe, so Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Also, we talk about it at least four hours a day, every day in the room. So I, I feel like I was all talked out about it too, by the time, yeah. By the time the day was over, so. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But, you know, it's good to be able to talk about it a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, in the time I've known Grant, you have been such a hard worker. Mm-hmm. And there have been so many moments where I was like, this guy's just gonna pop off. And then, and then you did. And I love that for you and for all of us. Because sometimes it doesn't happen that way where there's a lot of talented people that work really hard and are also good people that are still waiting for their pop off moment. A hundred percent. Uh, not to start things off on a cynical note, but I think there's so much chance that has to do with it and, you know, we all know so many people that work hard and have taken all the opportunities and have a lot of talent and it's still just like a bad run of luck or whatever. Mm-hmm. Makes it hard for them to make it. So, yeah. I feel very lucky too, be in the place I am now and, uh, I'm sure, you know, it'll be, still continue to have ups and downs, but yeah. Mm-hmm. I think for me, and I, and I, we talked about this too, is like. You not only do you work hard, but you work well with others and you've made so many great connections and genuine connections. Um, and I think that's so helpful. And I think that's a big reason too, that you're working on one of your favorite shows ever. Yeah, 100%. I think it helps. I always tell people the first. Like rung of interviews or whatever is just someone, you know, being able to tell the people hiring you. This person's not a serial killer, which sounds good, but legitimately, they know with me they're not getting someone who's going to be unpleasant personally, you know? Yeah. Who's, who's going to at least have a modicum of decorum. So, yeah. For now, for now, I'm gonna, it's going to my head, unleash. I'm gonna be, yes. Very unpleasant going forward. Um, okay. So. What are some things you do? We call them spiritual practices, but they don't have to necessarily be spiritual. They can be rituals. What are some things you do to keep yourself mentally healthy and sane as an artist? Um, so yeah, I'm not a, a very spiritual person, so a lot of my rituals are more pragmatic, I guess. Um, as Olivia can attest, I think physical exercise is very important to me. You know, I try to, yeah, once a day be sweating in some way or another, whether it's the gym or a run or something. I think it's just a helpful, um, expensive energy and it works literally a different muscle, I think, than writing does. You know, when you're sitting and staring at a. Computer screen for that long. I think it helps to get outside or in a different building and, and move some heavy stuff around or yeah, just run around a little bit. So is it a certain time every day? Um, well, I, I. Usually go to the gym early in the morning, but that is more because my gym buddy goes at 7:00 AM so I go at 7:00 AM Okay. Shout out to Aaron. Shout out to Aaron. You have an accountability buddy? Yes. Yes. I have an accountability buddy who picks me up because up until, uh, two days ago I didn't have a car. So he literally comes and picks me up and takes me to the gym and we work out and then returns me. That's very cute. Uh, it's very nice of him and actually a good way to start the day because then you know, you have a little time, you've been awake for a couple hours by the time. Our, uh, our room starts and you kind of wanna come in awake, you know, you wanna come in. Yeah. Having already gotten all that stuff out.'cause you might be asked to come up with something good right off the, right off the bat. And if you're still kind of rubbing the sleep outta your eyes, that's a little tricky. So yeah, I usually do that. And then if I'm going on a run, it'll usually be in the afternoon. Okay. Kind of after work. Are you very like, um. St, I wanna say stringent. Is that the right word? Are you like, every single day I must do this? Or is it more loose? I weekends I'll take off. Okay. But most weekdays, certainly at least, at least working out if not working out running. I have also noticed too, that when you are like on script writing, uh, if you do need, you're like, I just need a new idea. You go out running. Yeah. Like if it's like, sometimes it's not even regimen, it's just, uh, I need to get away from the screen, like you said, and just go, and I've seen you come back and be like, I did it. I unlocked it. And we just go, wow. Yeah, because you can't really distract yourself when you're running and you kind of, it's so unpleasant physically. If you're doing it is. It really is. Right. I hate running. Your brain just goes anywhere else. For, since this is an audio medium, I would like your listeners to know that I don't look like I work out wrong. Yeah, you do. Every single day I do it, but lest you Google a picture of me and like what in the. So, yeah, but I guess that's my, my main daily practice as far as that stuff goes. Has that been like an always thing or did you have to come to find that? That was a good question. I kind of had to come to find that I am not a very well coordinated or athletic person and never really have been. So I think I sort of thought of physical exercise is something I would not enjoy, and it was really in my adult life that I think I realized how important it is to be doing both. That even if you are. Sort of, you know, I'm a huge reader as well, and there's something about reading and writing that are close enough to each other that if that's kind of all you're doing that day, um, I think your brain just starts to get a little fuzzy. And I think physical exercise is great in whatever capacity you can do it, just to shake off the cobwebs and be such a different thing. So yeah, I'd say it wasn't until I was in my twenties, maybe early twenties, that I started to really take that seriously. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Was there like a moment where you're like, okay, I need to be active now? How did it come to be? Yeah, that's a good question. I, I think it was kind of a slow process. I had never, you know, I think for a lot of, well, I, I shouldn't speak for everybody. I think as a kid I didn't really know like how to work out and I was a little worried about hurting myself or something. Mm-hmm. So like that was definitely a process of learning and having to go to the gym and figure out what is the safe way to do this. Luckily I had friends who did that, and running is something I, uh, used to do with my dad. Uh, I guess I still, he's around to be clear. I still could run with him, but, you know, uh, just slightly different ages now. But, um, but yeah, so I, I knew I could run and I did enjoy it occasionally, but I was just never very regular with it. Mm-hmm. And I think that is the other thing too much like with any artistic craft, I think you've gotta kind of be consistent about it for it to go anywhere or for you to get any better. So I just kind of realized I can't be running, you know, whenever I'm home or just kind of on a lark, I have to be a little, a little better about. Doing it frequently and at a regular schedule, so, yeah. Yeah. It's kind of funny how like the brain can actually change. Like we were talking about this where I felt like I was too addicted to coffee. So I started in the mornings I do like ginger, cinnamon, lemon tea, and then I, and then I eat, and then I have coffee and eventually, I, I remember one morning I was like, okay, you know what? I'm just gonna, I'm so tired, I'm just gonna have coffee. I'm gonna skip the tea thing. And I was like, I don't even want this. Like my, I like changed the habit in a way that doesn't feel like work. Yeah. Does it feel like that, like, does, does working out feel like work now? Like you have to convince yourself to do it, or it's just part of you? Rarely do I, if it's a long run, I do have to talk myself into it. If it's more than five miles, I'm really gonna have to, you know, oh, grant, look at, look in the mirror and say, you've gotta, you just gotta do it. Once you're out there, it won't be so bad. But that, that's a harder thing to face down. But no, everything else. Yeah, it pretty much comes naturally. And like Olivia was saying, I think it does help, you know, if I'm, if I'm working on a problem in a script or something, it is huge to be able to say, okay, I'll, I'll, you know, sometimes the best ideas occur to you when you're not trying to come up with them. So that's hugely helpful. That was actually gonna be my question, is I, I don't think I've ever asked you when you go out. Because you need to think of something or crack a scene or something like that. Do you out, I love that verbiage. Crack a scene, crack a scene because that, that's how I say it. Sure. Yeah. I, I like it. Um, do you go out, like thinking about it or do you go out with the intention not to think about it? Do you listen to music? Like what? Do you have a mentality? I do listen to music. Um, I do try and not actively think about it. Okay. Um, not chase it because I think, you know, I have that going on in the back of my head. Mm-hmm. But when you let your brain sort of drift, I. Um, I think it'd be easier to come up with good ideas. Yeah, I mean, there are a lot of parts to my job, obviously, but I think a lot of what day-to-day script writing is, or most of the jobs I've taken in the writing space are really about, um, details and executing someone else's vision. And especially if you are, say, a staff writer on a TV show to me, my job is usually. To make sure that my showrunner or the higher ups sort of get what they'd like, which is a matter of just being kind of on the ball, putting together good sentences, putting together good scenes, good scripts, et cetera. And then occasionally you also have to come up with something, I guess, higher or more artistic like inspiration. And I think that is a harder thing you can kind of buckle down and force yourself to. Do good craft, I guess, you know, to just make a script that works. That sentences sound good, you're editing it, et cetera. That's the thing. You can kind of buckle down and force your way through, but it's really hard to force your way to artistic inspiration, I think. Mm-hmm. And specifically to coming up with an idea that really resonates. So I, I think that's what's helpful to kind of trick the mind into focusing, looking somewhere else or doing something else so that the good ideas can sneak in a little bit, because it's also like inspiration for somebody else's. Inspiration. Right, exactly. Like it's not exactly your, it's not your impulse. It's like you're trying to find an impulse for a per a different person's creative vision. Exactly. It's it and it, it is. You kind of have to let go of the ego. Element of a little bit, I think for that, because I'm not trying to think of the idea that most resonates with me or that I would most like necessarily, I'm trying to think of an idea that I think will solve a problem with the script or whatever, but will also give the people above me what they want. Mm-hmm. And especially working in like an established universe, which we are, that means you're running it by the people who created that universe and you're making sure that everybody upped the chain. Is cool with it. So even if I was like, it'd be cool if something totally wild ha you know, like, I can't throw that out there. That's not what the topic Yeah. That's why I can't do your job. I'd be like, everyone's nude and they're holding menand. What do we think They'd be like, uh, this is an afterschool special. Um, okay. To, to switch topics for a second. Yeah. What do you feel like, I know you said you're not spiritual. Do you believe? Do what? Do you relate to being agnostic? Do you believe that there's any higher power? Do you, do you believe in any, any plants? Do you believe in plants brand? I do believe in plants. I'm looking at some right now, I believe strongly. I love that. Um, I'm, I'm probably a pretty firm atheist. Okay. I guess I would describe my opinion as I was raised in the church. Um, uh, what was the denomination? Um, I was Episcopalian. Okay. And my grandparents were both Sunday school teachers, and I went every Sunday with them pretty much through high school. But I would say since I've been conscious of my own beliefs, I haven't really believed, I just thought it was nice for my grandparents that I would go. Mm-hmm. I think I can say now because they're not around to listen to this podcast. Mm. But, um, I, you know, I think to me. Uh, I think there are definitely things we can't understand, but I don't necessarily believe in higher power. Mm-hmm. If I have a religious or spiritual leaning, it's probably something closer to secular Buddhism. Yeah. Um, or Taoism. I really like reading about religions and I was always fascinated by that aspect of it, but I don't necessarily believe or interact with the world in that way. I'm a pretty materialist person, I guess, in that sense. Yeah. Yeah. Did you have to like have a coming out to your family of like, I am not religious. No, not really. My immediate family knew a from pretty much when I was like 13 or 14. Oh, really? Okay. Because I was a snotty little punk, um, making fun of their beliefs. But uh, I'd never really talked to my grandparents about it. You know, I think that was such an important part of their lives and they were involved in that community and it just seemed like it would be. A waste of my effort and of their sort of good graces to bring that up. You know, I, I think it made them feel good that I went with them, and that was enough for me to be like, there's no, I don't feel the need to have this argument with them necessarily. Yeah. And they were pretty, I mean, obviously, you know, I, I guess it depends on which church you're in, but our, our church was relatively forgiving and, and my grandma who taught the, uh, sort of youth school always emphasized that the Bible was written. At a certain time and she would, she would sort of say, you know, look how they talk about women or something. And she'd said, but this is from the Bronze Age. So there were different cultural practices. And I always appreciated that about her, that she was like, I believe strongly in this, but I'm also willing to put it in its historical context as an older document. So, yeah, that's really great. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like a lot of people don't wanna do that. No, no. It's a tough thing to do. I mean, you know, I, I, I, I don't think my grandpa did that, for instance. I think he was pretty like, Nope, this is, this is what it is. But, uh, but yeah, so I don't know how much that inspired my own spiritual practices or beliefs necessarily, but I definitely think it is a fascinating arena. You know? What about secular buddhism entices you. Great question. I. Have just always been drawn to Buddhism and to a lesser extent Taoism. The nerdy answer that's probably true to some extent is that I came up on Star Wars and they've got kind of some of that around the force. Oh, okay. I probably made that connection pretty early on. I was like, whoa, I like that. But you know, I think the thing that I appreciate about Buddhism is the same thing I appreciate about something like stoicism, which is this belief in controlling what you can and letting what you can't go. Mm-hmm. And in focusing on, you know, your own actions to some extent. And then also the attempt to find sort of a mental, calm and balance. You know, I do meditate occasionally. Mm-hmm. But it is not like I attend a Buddhist temple regular or anything like that. But I love reading about it too. I think spiritually, um, a lot of Buddhist writers are probably closer to a thought pattern of my own or just something I'm interested in. And I think the practice of meditation too is something that I think is very important. I'm sure you guys are gonna get. Meditation as, as, as one of these episodes at some point, which is why I did not select it for mine. But I think, uh, no, I'd hate to make you meditate two weeks, you know? Be terrible. Um, yeah. Do you, do you do a guided meditation or you just do sit in silence? Or what's your. I sit in silence. And it's another one of those things like running a writing that I think definitely you get better at the more you do it. And as Olivia can attest, there have been times, even in our relationship where I've been really good about doing it every day. Mm-hmm. For longer and longer stretches of time. And then there are times when I'm bad about my practice and then it becomes incredibly hard to, you know, keep the mind relatively clear for more than two or three minutes, you know? Mm-hmm. So, yeah. Taoism is interesting. I'm re I always reread this book of the Dao de Jing. Yeah, yeah. Jing. Yeah, we talked about it that too. Um, I just kind of flip to different pages in it now and it's so I, like, sometimes I can wrap my mind around and it, and sometimes I'm like, what is it saying? Like, it feels like it's just saying like, there is nothing when you realize you are nothing, you are whole. And I'm like, that sounds nice, but what's it mean? You know? Yeah. Yeah. I think one of the advantages, I've read a couple of translations of that, um, book and you know, obviously it's so short and there are so many just sort of, it's, it's so segmented for those who haven't read it. But I dunno, I, I think there is something valuable in attempting to grapple with things that are irrational or difficult to understand. Another thing I appreciate about Buddhism is like zen koans, where they're sort of, they're not, riddles is even too strong of a word. They're just like odd. Questions that you ask. Mm-hmm. Try and sort of trick the mind into stopping thinking or achieving enlightenment. And again, it's not like I'm an enlightened Buddhist or, or Taoist or anything like that, but I, I think that ability to try and sort of shut off your mind or contemplate stuff that seems like it's outside of. The logic, uh, day to of your day-to-day is really nice. Yeah. And I feel like that's what a lot of religions give people in different ways too, and I feel like it kind of is all the same. Yeah. In a way. There was a great quote that we were talking about that was in that book, the Doja Jing of like, if you're on a ladder either going up or down, it's still shaky. It was about success and failure that if you're climbing a ladder or going down the ladder, you're still shaky. Yeah. It's like, how can you be sure. In your own two feet, which we were talking about how. Yeah, I think that's really, and especially I, I know you guys are focused on sort of people in creative industries and, and how, how the career path is going and how can spiritual stuff can help. And I think one thing about those philosophies that draw me in is the idea that you. Are not in control of so much of your setting and of how the world functions. And all you can really decide is how you are going to respond and how you're gonna act. And you have to also do that knowing that even if you do everything right, even if you take an action that you think is moral or ethical or, or the right move. That it still might not work out, and you just have to be comfortable in that action. Mm. And to me, the ladder steadying of feet thing is, is about exactly that, of like, you can't control what the ladder's doing and you can't control what the industry is doing, what people around you're doing. You can only control what you're doing and you can, you have to accept that, you know, that kind of shrinks the scope of what you have to worry about in a little, a little way. And kind of lets you off the hook too, of like, look, you can't judge. Internally, how you're doing by externally, how things have gone for you, because so much of that is so far outside your control. Mm-hmm. You really have to be comfortable, I think, with yourself as an artist and a person outside of the externalities that would dictate that to you. Do you feel two questions. Do you feel now or have you ever felt that you are defined by your success as a writer? No. Okay. You've never felt that? No. Actually was just having this talk at the gym with my gym buddy. Shout. Shout out to Aaron again. Hey Aaron. But no, you know, I think to me, I. I like to write, it's what I'm passionate about, and this is different admittedly than it could be for actors or directors, paths that require some sort of external validation. You know, I can go write in my office by myself, and that functionally is the same whether someone's paying me to do it or not, whether I'm working in an established universe or not. If I'm writing, I'm writing. Acting and directing things like that I understand are different because, you know, you can't just walk into a room and be acting by yourself. It has a different, we do it all the time talking about you can be doing that as well. But, but I think there is a, uh, validation from the audience that you get as well. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, when I write an episode of something, there, there are still episodes, uh, I've written years ago that I still haven't aired. Animation takes a long, long time. And, I don't get that direct connection to like seeing an audience react or something like that. Um, and I also have been, working a long time and working very hard to move up, but at the same time, I never felt less like a writer when I was a PA or something like that. Mm. I think to me, because it's artistically important to me, it's something I'm aware that I would be doing regardless of my success or failure. And also that, like, I feel very lucky in my success and I, you know, if, if I'm willing right now to judge myself at a moment of success as like, hooray, you did it. You're a writer. Mm-hmm. Sometime in the not too distant future, I'll have to judge myself again and say, Hey, you're not, you're out of a job. You're between jobs. Does that make you not a writer? So I think it's important to disconnect those identities from That's really smart. Yeah. I had a similar thing with like feedback. Like there was a time where I was asking my reps to get feedback from auditions. Mm-hmm. And then it was great feedback. It was like amazing. And you felt awesome. And then every so often, like not a lot, but there was, I remember there was one casting director who was like. It's just not strong enough and I was devastated. Yeah. I can't ask for feedback anymore because they give exactly that thing. Like if I'm gonna, yeah. If I'm gonna, I can't accept the good and not the bad, so I just should just mm-hmm. Do what I, if I feel that it was good, then that has to be, yeah. Enough, and, and maybe also even, you know, again, I understand that like there's so many different variations on the creative thing and it's not all gonna be the same, but like I would also say that I think it's fair for you to disconnect. Someone could tell you that about your acting. Mm-hmm. Well, that's just their opinion, you know what I mean? And like whether you take that under consent, I don't even know how you would take that under consideration or not, but. But that has nothing to do with the talent that you bring. You know what I mean? Like really trying to be like, Hey, like I'm doing my best here and it does not affect my ego to here. Someone else didn't like what I'm putting out there. Mm-hmm. Because like why should I be worried about that? Or if I am worried about that, I'm worried about it for career reasons of, okay, I'll figure out some way to do that rather than. Now I feel fundamentally that I'm like invalidated in some way in my artistic identity because someone didn't like what I was doing. Right. You know, because like, again, writing very different, but like I have never felt, people have read my scripts and not cared for them. People have rejected them. People have just not read them. And I think you can't take that stuff personally because you know, if you believe in what you're doing, that's gotta be enough and you can learn and adjust. And try to get better all the time. But at the same time, like not taking it too, too personally when someone just doesn't care for what you're doing. At least. At least that's how I treat it.'cause you know, not everyone will. Do you think that's something that you worked at that mentality? Because I hear me hearing you say that I, oh, I wish I could do that. Yeah, that is something I, I'm like, I am almost envious. And we've obviously, we've talked about this, but yeah. Is this something that like you think just over the 10 years you've been working. That you've gotten better at or is it something that you've always kind of known or, I, I think maybe I have gotten a little bit better about it. That's, I mean, you know, my personality pretty well. That's also just me, I think a little bit where I, I try to really divorce my feeling about myself from I. Things outside of my control a little bit. Um, and I've, you know, I didn't think I was going to go on this career path either. I didn't think I was gonna be a writer. So to me, what'd you think you were gonna be? A professor of literature. Wow. Okay. You know, for the money in another universe. Yeah. Al turns out you can wear Tweed Jackets even if you don't do that. No, I, I, you know, I. Thought I was gonna do that. And writing was sort of a pipe dream. And I graduated from college and got into grad schools, and then I just thought, I'll give it a try for a couple years. I would love to do that. That would be incredible. That would be a cherry on top of life if I got to do that. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. And why not try, I've got a few years, I'm in my early twenties. What, what else am I doing? So I, I came out and worked really hard to get where I am, and it's worked out wonderfully, but to me it's all been a cherry, like this is incredible that I get to do any of this. It's a treat and it's not a treat I take lightly, and it's also not a treat that I think lasts for forever. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Like I am so lucky and delighted to do it, and I know that there is no guarantee that that will continue. You know, there never is. I, I wonder, I'm wondering this, and I, I, this could be so far off base, but I, I feel like it's actually a very unique. Perspective of an artist to feel that sure of themselves and just consistently like, it seems like that is how you've been. And I wonder if it's tied to you being an atheist at all. Like if, if, if you feel that like there is nothing beyond it and it's just due, does it in some way release the pressure of like you just are fully choosing your own destiny. There's no other input. I think there's maybe an element of that. You know, I actually was, when I was in college, a friend of mine brought me to his youth group as a token atheist. One summer, every, every week. Did you have to wear a little like badge? Yeah, a little, little letter. It was like a young men's group. So, so they knew, he sort of introduced me as that, like this is my string grant. And um, and he was a very religious guy. All these guys were very religious guys, except for me, Uhhuh. But I actually kind of appreciated that he was trying to go outside his perspective. Anyway, he brought me there and we were talking about this very thing of like, what, what does that do to your sense of destiny or predestination? You know, I, I think to me, I guess it's not even that I can chart my own destiny so much as that. I don't think there is a destiny. Like I don't know what comes next. I don't think it's predetermined and like I'm just doing my best in the moment and know, knowing that things could change and that would not necessarily be a reflection of. You know, whether I have angered or gained the approval of some higher power, that might just be like, bad luck or, or good luck. And you know, it's kind of outside of my control. And I said I would have a hard time, I think, getting outta bed in the morning if I thought there was a plan in place already, or if I thought there was, you know, that it was all predestined. Not to get all Calvinist, but I was like, if I already knew. Before I was born, it was determined if I was going to heaven or hell or, or that someone knew exactly what my life would look like. I think I would have a hard time sort of functioning day to day. Mm-hmm. And my religious, you know, the friends, the, the people in this youth group said the opposite, where they were like, by God, I, I don't think I could get out of bed in the morning if. I didn't feel like there was a plan in place if I didn't feel like there was the al the hand of the Almighty in, in what I was doing day to day, which I thought was an interesting difference in perspective. So maybe that could have something to do with it. But I also think, I actually don't think I'm making my own destiny so much as like I'm just trying to do my best day in and day out, and my destiny is very much out of my hands. But I don't think it's in anyone's hands. I think it's, you know, in, in Hollywood, producer's hands, boy, worse, worse than God, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I guess, you know, and just luck too. I really, really can't emphasize enough. This sounds like I'm saying I didn't work hard for my job or didn't earn or anything, which like I worked super hard. Yes, you did. And super lucky to have it. I, and, and I think luck played an enormous part of, just like, I, you know, when you, when I look back at the path my career has taken, it's like, well, I took this job and I didn't get that job, which means I took another job and then I met this person on that job and this person introduced me to that person and they hired me for another job. And, you know, it's, it's an insane string of, of coincidences that lead me to anything good or bad. And so, yeah, I dunno, I just try not to be too attached to that. Mm-hmm. Because, yeah. Did you ever have a moment of like, this is terrible, it's not working, I'm gonna leave this. Did you have a low point ever? Did I have a low point? I mean, I didn't have a moment like that where I thought. This is terrible and it's not working. And again, I think it's what I was talking about earlier where like I never stopped writing. I have always been writing. I will continue to write even if things are going poorly. Well, whatever. I'm always, always writing, writing, writing, which I think is the only way you get better and also just very important to me. So that was always something that I was gonna keep doing no matter what. There were definitely moments in my career where, you know, when I first first moved out here, I was an onset PA on a. Uh, wrestling show, uh, cleaning up people's blood, taking wrestlers to the hospital. Oh, cleaning porta-potties. It was, you know, it was a pretty gnarly job. And, uh, you know, and, and as, as some people may know, onset PAs, you have atrocious hours. You are the bottom of the pecking order. I mean, it's a really, really tough job. Yeah. So that was probably the low point, and that was my entry point of the industry. You know, I, I, I often joke when I'm on generals or something that, that I started off at a low point. Everything, everything since that job, that wasn't even a terrible job. You know, people have a lot worse. But, um, man, every job since that job, I've been like, it's air conditioned in here. Like, no one's, no one's up, no wrestlers are screaming at me. This is great. Um, so that was probably my low point, but honestly, no. Again, I know that makes it maybe a little less interesting is what I think. It doesn't. I, uh, yeah. I don't, I don't think Olivia, you, you, we've been through that a long time. I mean, have you ever seen me be like, I'm outta here. No. No. Not necessarily. I guess another question maybe for, for Grant specifically is maybe not career wise, but as far as like you talked about exercise is important to you. Um, and I guess we'll keep the word spiritually or just ritually Yeah. For that. Does that help? Not necessarily career wise, but just when life is tough? Yeah. I would say it does as well. I think the big thing with both writing and exercise, actually that helps me. I, I have a, despite my. Lack of religion. I think I have, uh, some Protestant work ethic in me, for sure. Where I am, I constantly am like I have to achieve something, I have to work hard. Mm-hmm. And there is something really nice, uh, and I did this, you know, this exercise scratches the itch, as does my daily writing. It's just nice to know at the end of the day, even if everything went wrong, like I did one, I did get that one thing done. Mm-hmm. You know, and I think exercise can, can absolutely serve that purpose. And I also think like if you're a writer or something or or doing an art form that you can do completely by yourself and, and in some capacity like that, just feeling like every day I got 30 minutes in or something like that. Mm-hmm. Is such a huge psychological weight off your shoulders. At least for me. That's what I've found. So do you, your daily writing, is it. Is it now your writing for the show, or do you have your own personal daily writing that you do for your own stuff? I mean, now just because of how busy we are, it's mostly the show. Yeah. I still find time to write my own things a little bit and, and, and sort of be thinking and playing around with that stuff. Um, you know, it, it can be tough too, I think to do multiple projects at once, which, which I have done before as well, where you're sort of having to switch between. How, what, what world you're living in, how you're thinking, how you're writing. Those are different modes of expression. Um, so I, you know, I still write. Daily. Uh, and when I'm working really hard, I try to carve out a little space for individual stuff, but I also try to give myself some grace of like, look, at least you did some. Mm-hmm. Some writing of some kind, you know? And especially feeling lucky enough to get to do creative writing professionally. You know, I think that helps times when I've done, I. Non-creative writing for money, I've definitely made sure to carve out that time to creatively write stuff. Yeah. Because that does not quite scratch the same itch when you're writing about, not to throw any companies I've worked for under the bus, but like weather satellites for instance. Or not necessarily just off the top of my ear, uh, don't quite scratch that creative itch. Yeah. This was delightful. Great. Yeah. Okay. Is there anything that, that you would like to plug or that we should Yeah, we have to watch Avatar. Please watch Avatar Last. Airbender and Legend of Cora. Okay. Which is leaving Netflix I think probably will have left by the time this comes up. And, uh, watch Avatar Seven Havens when it comes out. We're really proud of it. Yay. I think it's gonna be good and uh, yeah, it's. A dream. A dream to work on for sure. So I love that. Um, wait, so are we running now? Oh yeah. Okay. Now we have to talk about this. Do you talk about this on Mike? We have to run. Do we have to run? You wanna talk about it on mic? I don't wanna run. Wait, may I, may I chime in? Yes, please. I think. Okay. Just for ease of, because I think I worked up to the amount of working out and running that I do, and I feel like, I feel like if you just do maybe like a, like a walk or if it's like 15 minutes of exercise a day. I know you guys have been doing yoga, I think, right? Does that count? Yeah, I think so. I don't know if that feels like a cop out to you every day. It shouldn't to me'cause you're already doing the exercise, so why should you have to, you know? Yes. But, but I, but I do it like three times a week. Okay. So I think we could say for two weeks we do it every Now are we gonna do the Monday through Friday grant rules or are we gonna say every day? For two weeks. Some form of exercise that like gets our heart rate up. Let's say that. I like that. I think that's, yeah. Okay. Get your heart rate a quick jaunt. Okay. Every day. Get your hair. Sweat. Sweat. We have to sweat. Get a little sweat. Which is, look in Los Angeles. That's not that hard. Yeah. You know, it's hot. You just walk outside, you're sweating. Already done. Done and done. Okay. That's what we're gonna do for two weeks. Then we'll report back. Sounds good. About things that have changed and grown. Yeah. And I'm excited. Me too. I should have picked something weirder. No, this is good. I couldn't think of anything. Thanks for being our guest. Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thanks for having on guys. Love. Love you too. I love you in a different way. Thanks, Harry. I feel the same. Uh, you guys are awesome. And uh, yeah, good luck talking about how it's been going. Thank you. Yeah. All right. Well, this has been SDA Spiritual Practices. The Disgruntled Artist Artist. Boop boop. See you next time.