SPODA: Jake Elitzer, Actor, Writer, Director, Acting Coach, Mysterious Person

We start with an intro where Olivia and Ari talk about Dr. Tanu's nature awareness practice from the last episode, which includes a very funny/terrifying story about a rat. We also analyze Ari's tendency to cry easily, and Love Island is referenced liberally.

Our actual interview (beginning around the 20 minute mark) is with Jake Elitzer. We talk about his Jewish roots, his experience with medicinal psilocybin, his struggle to receive love, and how being disabled has affected his artistic journey. It's an emotional ride, but one filled with insights and a unique perspective. Hopefully by the end, Jake Elitzer is a little less mysterious to you.

Things We Talk About In This Episode:

The book Jake mentions with the questions "Is it true? Is it absolutely true?" is "Loving What Is" by Byron Katie

Shakespeare Forum: https://www.theshakespeareforum.org/

Our email address so you can tell Ari how you feel about Amaya from Love Island (or do the practices with us! Even better!): spoda.contact@gmail.com

Follow us on IG: @spodapod

Hosted by Olivia Spirz and Ari Hader

Beautiful music by Doug Harvey

Transcript

0:11

Hello everyone. I was waiting for it. It's an expectation now. It's like it's an expectation and a treat. The Your Hello? Oh, hello? Yes. Yeah, I, Mrs. Doubtfire. Yes. That's exhaust. Hello. What a good flick. Thank you. I haven't watched that in a long time. I know. I love that movie. Yeah, that movie makes me cry every time, but in the good way. Yes. Is there a different, okay, hang on. Hello. Welcome, to SPODA. I'm Olivia Spirz. I'm Ari Hader. How do you feel about Mrs. Dfi? Oh, we have an email address. We'll get there. Okay. We'll get there. Welcome to. Spiritual practices of the disgruntled artist, where we interview a new artist each episode to learn them how they are keeping themselves sane and spiritually healthy during this epically challenging time to be an artist. All right. And after that interview, we take a practice of the guest and implement it for the next two weeks or so. Uh, yeah. And our last guest, Dr. Tanushree Verma doctor, I wanna be a doctor, but then I don't have to go back to school and I don't wanna go back to school, but I just wanna be a doctor. I. How can that be? As an actor, you can be a doctor. That's so true. That's so true. Actually, I feel like I am just kind of about to be of an age of a doctor. You know? Like Right, you be a doctor right now. I'm like, Ooh, that's a little young for a doctor. But I think in a couple years I'll be like, yeah, that's a doctor. The doctors on a gray as an a. I don't watch that, but I've seen your episode. But yeah, thanks. That's, yeah, that's just too, yeah, I know. They're very, they're very young and beautiful looking. That's what I'm saying. You could be a doctor. Thank you so much. Yeah, yeah. I would that I, I really want that, you know, Grey's Anatomy, if you're listening, can we bring back Toby to be like a doc, like Toby was so inspired by their mom's, their mom's journey and how their mom got, you know, the use of her hands back through medicine. And then they are inspired to be a doctor who doesn't want that storyline. Take notes. You know what I'm saying? Take notes, write in friends. Write in, write in all 12,000 of you send a DM to, yeah. So Tanu's, um, practice was to basically look outside yourself at a plant or an animal, um, or food. Food, yes. Um, any nature kind of anything. Yeah. I guess person two and uh, two. Think about, their lifecycle and if you feel so inclined to look it up. Mm-hmm. Explore, you know, use, use internet. Um, how'd you do? I really loved it. It's fun. Yeah. Love. I'll keep it around. It's also great for the girls, the kids that I have, my kids, some would say, because I remember, I, I used it actually a lot, but at one point we were at the duck pond. Okay. And we saw that some of the ducks had a blue stripe on them, and some of them had a purple stripe on them. And I was like, I wonder why? And because of Tanu's practice. Practice. Yeah. Yeah. I went home and I looked it up and I learned that it's like a mating thing and Oh, okay. And there was also another duck with a really green bill. I just feel like I noticed more things. Yes, that's exactly what I was gonna say. Yeah. I feel like a lot of the times, like, because I didn't, I looked up some things, I mean, my. Ability to retain fun facts, kind of has disappeared, but I'll be like, oh, I, I'll know this fact forever and then next day I'm gonna be like, I couldn't tell you. But, but that's what I was gonna say I feel like, especially at home, I looked, up at the bamboo and I was thinking about that and, uh, we had even, we had a, um. I don't know if, did I tell you that we had a rat in the house? No, I'm, no, I'm ha Okay. Continue on. Okay. So for those who, dunno, I love rats. I, I don't think I knew that I had pet rats growing up. Mm-hmm. I had pet rats. Okay. What were their names? Dot was the first one. She was gray with a white dot on her forehead. Okay. Cute. So it was really clever by the way, this was, I didn't ask for it, it was my dad just got it for. For me, for Christmas. One time he just knew, he was like, I have a rat girl. As a daughter, he, what he did is he went to like, you know, pet smar whatever, and he was gonna get me like a hamster or something like that. Uh, and the person there was like, no, no, no, no, no. You don't want, you don't, your daughter doesn't want a hamster, your daughter wants a rat. Because she's like, what kind of does she want, does she wanna actually touch and cuddle and play with this animal? Mm-hmm. He's like, oh yeah. And he's like, great. It's gonna be a rat. And I am the biggest advocate for rat. As a pet, I will. I I could. How did I not podcast? Know this? I've known you for so long and I did not know you were a rat girl. I love rat. Is it offensive to call you a rat girl? No. Okay. I'll, I, I'll wear that title proudly. I love rats. They're the best pets. They're very clean. They're very sweet. Um, wow. They're very social. Uh, they're much better than hamsters. Sorry, people. Yeah. Like our hamsters still around. I feel like our generation people got ham. I never had, I don't think I had a hamster. Maybe, maybe I did have a hamster. I don't remember. Did you get the girls a hamster? No. Absolutely. Would you get the girl? I'll pitch a rat. I wanna get them anything. Right. I, to be honest, just right now, I don't need another, I don't need another thing to worry about, to be totally frank. Oh, wait, okay. You, how did you find the ref? Okay. Where, what was the initial Oh, yeah, yeah. Sorry. Sorry. So go back. Spotting of the wrap. Um. So actually my neighbors are over. Rachel and Ben. Shout out to Rachel and Ben. Hello? Yeah. Rachel, fan of the pod there? Yes. Yes. Uh, so, um, we're just in the kitchen and she like, looks over. She goes, is that rat poop? And I looked down like right kind of where we were. And sure enough, five little, little drop links and I was like, no, no, no, no. And then we're starting to look throughout the house and we're seeing little drop links here, no in there. And I'm freaking out where I was like, okay, there's now, at the moment I thought there were mice.'cause we have mice in our um, right backyard that they come around. There's two. Uh, and so I was like, oh, this is for sure a mouse. Don't wear it guys. This is for sure a mouse, but I wanna find it. Right?'cause there's a. Critter amongst us and uh, uh, Rachel finally found it. It was like in the Harry Potter closet, like hidden.'cause it's like crazy in there. There's a bunch of like storage and stuff. She goes out. Wait, what? The Harry Potter closet only holds Harry Potter paraphernalia. Yeah. No, no, no. It's called the Harry Potter Closet. Sorry, I should probably explain that more. It's in our house there. We refer to the Harry Potter closet because it's a closet that's technically below the stairs. Okay. So, and it's shaped in that way. Do you have stairs? The stairs? The stairs? Who are you upstairs? Do you even know who I'm The, the stairs that go to Oh, the upstairs name. Okay. Upstairs unit. Got it. So just the way, like, yeah, we call it the Harry Potter closet, just because Okay. Yeah, guys, the, it's, it's where we put the, like recyclables and stuff like that. Mm-hmm. It's that closet, so like right by the records for those who know, so it's like right there. Okay. Anyways, found them. And it wasn't a small little mouse. It was a big old rat. And at first, and then I went in.'cause I was like, okay, rat queen, I gotta take over girl. Rat, queen. Rachel was also like, freak, she's no way. No way. I gotta get outta here. And so we barricaded the closet so we couldn't escape. Mm-hmm. Because that was my, I was a little relieved'cause I was like, okay, I'm just glad you found him. We found him so you didn't have to sleep. Being like, where is his? Oh, wish shivers. So, um. All of a sudden couldn't find him again. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no. I know. I saw him too. Saw the hotel, and then I realized we're like, we, we were basically taking stuff out of the closet. And I realized that there Grant has a amp and there's like a hole in the back. Oh, no. And I, I bet you he's in the t the rats and the amp people. The rans in the, the, the amp. Not like there's a band name there somewhere. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. And so we, uh, actually kind of turned out for the best because that I didn't have to like grab the rat. The rat was in there, so I just taped it and then brought the rat outside with the amp, locked butt with the amp. So long for the amp. Yep. That's what, so when I said, well, there's a way to like undo the amp, to like make sure, I don't think the rat was there for a long time. I think while I was moving stuff around, and I actually don't think, we think he was there for one night.'cause we were trying to figure out where, like where did he come from? Yeah. Blah, blah blah. But that's also like, I used Tanu's practice to bring this all up. I was like, think And I actually thought of like kind of funny enough, I was thinking about from the rat's point of view, like Grant. And I like being like in our morning, you know, talking and from the town looking at us doing whatever. And I was like, what did this rat experience for this whole night? Because the rat did not wanna be there either, obviously. Right. I think he was also a little confused, like, this is not where I'm supposed to be. Well, I like that it happened to you, the rat queen. Um, I mean also I just am really happy. Didn't have to make,'cause I would've lost. My mind, I would've, I, I may have, I would've lost my mind in a, in a scary way. Maybe I can't handle it. Okay. Universe, I can't. The universe gives you what you can't handle right now. Definitely. Can't handle any sort of rat related Oh, yeah. I mean, or mouse related problem. Here's the thing. I, uh, being the. The rat girl, rat queen. How would you call me? Yeah. Um, uh, I was not, uh, happy about that. Yeah. Just make this clear. Be clear. To be clear, we had a, I love rats, but ones that know in are Yeah. Like pet store rat pets. Right. Pet pets are very different. Yes. Yeah. But yeah, I think it was just also a, a. That practice kind of like brought me back to like,'cause I was, I was upset. I was, you know, and it felt gross and grimy. Yep. Despite being a rat person, you know, so I try to like take it from the rat's point of view. Right. That's really nice. Of, yeah. That's so nice of you. Yeah. Yeah. But I'll continue doing it. It's also with our phones. It's so easy. Yes. To just ask Siri. Um, and the girl, and they, the kids just love it to be like, what? And'cause they're, they're also just so curious. Why did, why do this, do this? Why do animals do this? Why, you know? I, it was also funny enough, uh, I have a friend right now who's doing like an animal bracket for fun. What's that? Uh, like she basically, uh, so this is, uh, one of, uh, grant's friends. She's a writer. Uh, shout out to Michelle. She, uh, basically like. Grant asked her what her favorite animal was. Mm-hmm. And she didn't know. So she basically designed typical Tuesday conversation. She designed, I forgot where this came from, but I think it's also,'cause Grant is very much in love with elephants. They're all over his office, like they're everywhere. Elephants are pretty magical, magical. So she did like an animal bracket I found out about this bracket. I was like, oh, I love a quiz. I love all this or that, I love a bracket. I love doing that kind of stuff. And, and she was like, what she's been doing is because I was going off of instinct. She was like, okay. Like she'd be like starfish or ant eater. Mm. It'd be like something like that. And I'd go based off of my gut of like, what did you pick? Just what do I, I think you'd pick an eater. Am I right? Would you have picked an eater? I think I've, I think I would've picked Starfish. Really? Okay. I would've picked Starfish, but, but she, it's so funny the reason I mentioned the Anate. I forgot which one she had it, where it was in the bracket, but she, she is going through each animal and learning about them before choosing Wow. Where I was going off of my bone. Yeah. Gut. Our predisposed like notions of these animals. Yes. Yeah. But we don't even know. Yeah. I never even met an, an eater. Yeah. She was telling me about, I forgot what the fun facts were about. Again, I can't remember the fun facts, but the an eaters, I was like, oh, she was telling me something. I was like, bow yeah. Are cool. So I was like that. She kind of wanna do that. I don't wanna go back to the bracket and do like a deep dive of each animal. Oh, I love that. Isn't that fun? That is really fun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It is a, it makes me feel a little. I guess selfish is the word, right? Like we live amongst, or not even, not amongst, I've never met an aunt Eater. I like to, you know, but like they're in our world. Yeah. So yeah, it's, are Aunt Eats local to California? Are they, I know armadillos are. I love armadillos. Yeah. I wonder if, if animals have favorite people in the way that weren't, right. Definitely. Like, it's like, oh, I've never met a yoga student before, but I, I met, you know, all these an eaters are having this conversation. This is, this is a very off topic, but talking about people you never met. Uhhuh, I've never met a synchronized swimmer. I want to reel the other day, and I was like, not once in my life have I met a real life. Let me tell you something and I need to, are you telling me that you are a synchronized swimmer? Uh, I'm, I'm telling you that I pretended to be a synchronized swimmer for a commercial audition because it says on my profile that I can synchronize swim because I, I, I can dance and I can swim. What more do you want from me? Like, oh my gosh. But then I went in and they were like, okay, can you do like some counts of a synchronized swim routine? And I did Olivia, but man, was it bad? And I, they all knew. I was like,'cause I don't know how they count it. So I was like, okay, ready? One, two, leg up. We spin and we're up, up and do the, do they do this? You like what I was like And legs open. Close. Open, close. Side to side. Side to side. I mean, wait, the guy looked at me and I looked at him and we both knew I've never synchronized swam before. Plus for a commercial, do you really need that? Anyway, so now you've almost met one. You met one. I was in a commercial that I did not book. I auditioned for 1 0 1 time. Okay. Okay. I wanna talk about this episode that's coming up briefly because something happened in it that I think is worth discussion. Okay. Which is that Jake is very open about his disability. Mm-hmm. Yes. And we talk about it a lot and, and then I started to cry'cause that is mm-hmm. Part of who I am. That's, and then when I came to edit it, I almost edited that out'cause it felt like. Uh, am I taking something that's not mine? But then I also feel like is a genuine reaction meant to be judged. Yeah. I, I, I, I would, my first initial opinion is the latters that, should it be Josh? I don't think it should. Mm-hmm. And I wonder too, um, and I guess, I don't know if there's boilers too, but you know.'Cause because you've cried on this podcast before. Yes. You, again, you almost not to cry. You're, that is your superpower. That is just who you are. And that's why it didn't even register to me. Uhhuh. I knew that. I knew that there was gonna be crying. I knew it was a rat. I knew, I knew there was gonna be crime for Kates. I knew like, yes, I knew like I, there were certain ones I knew going in. I was like. Just because of, I know the relationship between Yeah. You and the guest and or whatever. Right. And also we're talking about something very difficult. We're talking about his disability and how it is preventing him to do his art. Right. So, of course I cry too. Yeah. You know, like, you know, and I, I guess my thing is too, is maybe this one, I don't remember if he was crying. I don't think so. I don't think so. And so I think maybe that is why you. F maybe feel a little different about that. Mm. But was, I guess maybe Kate was, I dunno, this has been like in the ether for me, I think partially,'cause I had an auditioned recently about this funeral and on my character was somebody who was kind of crying more than the people were. Mm-hmm. Who were affected by the person who died. And the sort of, I don't wanna say joke, but the point of the scene was like. Don't do that, basically. And I think, and like, I think people have stopped being friends with me because I No am but also you also don't do it. It, it's fine. You know, you don't do it in a way that like takes over. You're not, it, it mm-hmm. You or you, I'm not like wailing. You're not wailing and you're not also like not doing it to Get the attention. Like, you know what I mean? Right. But like, but but then, but then, but I feel like that's your fear. And I don't think that is my fear. I don't think that's what you're doing. But then I zoom out, I think even if I'm not doing it to get attention, but it is pulling attention. Mm-hmm. Is that not a behavior that's worth looking at? You know what I mean? I think, again, and for you to cry at your friend who is struggling, that's just, that's just. That's who you are. That's why we love you. That's why I love you. That's nice. Okay. Don't cry now. I dunno. I just, I it's like, should it, should I be working? I guess that's a question, you know? No, listen, I do a lot of work on myself, you know, should I add this to the list? No my gut it says no. Okay. My gut is no, because Okay. Again, it's not like you are, even when you are, I know, I know you say even if you don't mean to still focus, but it is stealing focus. Uhhuh. But it's, but it's not though. But it's not, I don't think it is. And, and also like, didn't you. Work to become vulnerable? Yes. Like, isn't this something that you've, like, worked on? So, yes. I think it's, it's one of my favorite things about you. Oh, that's nice. So I, I would not change that. And I would, and I would tell you if it was as like, okay, they're, they're okay. You're okay. You know, you never, you know how to read a room. Yeah. I think that's it. Thanks. You know how to read a room, you know how to read a person and. Yeah, I guess we do have a good counterpoint to this in all the Love Island viewers out there, you, you actually, I, Olivia, started watching Love Island because it's really good, but you actually started with, not wrong, wrong season, but the season that everybody else in the world is watching. Amaya and Mommy. Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's her. But, uh, Amaya is a different one, but she will, she is, um, like what I'm afraid to be. She's, because Okay, someone will get Yeah, someone will get kicked off and she'll be like, yeah. Like it's the, the host is like, oh, oh no, you're not even even close to that. Yeah. You're not even close to that. And I, and I feel like it may feel. I mean, not everyone cries as easily as you. Yes. Not everyone has access to that, so I think it may you, you, you maybe start to notice it more like, well cut mind one crying. Right. Thanks. I think, I think it's, it's always good to keep in mind because, right, yeah.'cause the flip side is, what's the character's name? Amaya. Amaya. You don't wanna be Amaya? No, I don't. That's not you. Okay. Thanks. Thanks, girl. Thanks for. Talk me down course. I guess I'm gonna keep crying until, keep on crying. Yeah. Fill the tears. What are the plants? What are the plants? And then learn about the plants. Yes. And learn about plants. Also, if you wanna do these practices with us, we have an email account. Yes, it is spoda.contact@gmail.com. Yes. We'll put in the show notes too. Yeah, and or if you have any comments or questions or concerns, if you wanna tell me. Girl, stop crying. Or if you wanna talk about Amaya, I can talk about Maya all day. Spin off. I need, I need to watch this like I. It's such a good brain distraction. Um, okay. Oh, one last thing before, uh, I forget is I know we kind of closed up, but I wanted to mention more about the news practice is one thing I didn't do and I wanna do more of Uhhuh is, is we said, we talked about a lot animal. I think it was naturally easy to do with animals. Right, right. Because they feel living, right? Yep. And the next was plants. But we would mention food. Yes. But I didn't really do the food. Yeah, you were really excited about the food and, and I really, I think an easy way to do it is to become like a intentional, like seasonal eater. Mm. Yes. So that's my next, like, I'm gonna try to maybe do that. I love that idea. Like focus on, it's also better because when I try to eat oranges mm-hmm. Even now I've had some really bad oranges, but they were really good. And then I'm like, oh, they're not in season. But I think peaches are peaches of min. Oh yeah. Peaches A plus. We're in the height of summer. So what it peaches, stone fruit. Watermelon. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, we hope you enjoy this episode. Yes. Oh yeah. Send us an email. And yeah, we Thoughts and comments and concerns all. Okay. Well, ladies and Dance Syndromes we have on a guest, his name is Jake Elitzer. Woo. He's an actor. He's a director. He's a writer. He does Shakespeare. He's dabbled in woodworking. Yes. Mm-hmm. He's an acting team. Teacher coach. Yeah. He does all the things. We met, we both went to NYU, but we met on a movie long, long ago. Yes. And I just kind of met you. Yeah. But not really. And now I'm in your house. Yeah. Welcome, welcome So where to begin? I know that you've, you were grew up Jewish. Yes. Would you consider your family like an Orthodox Jewish family? We were definitely not an Orthodox Jewish family. Um, Orthodox is, is like a specific, sect isn't really the right word, but like, I think of it in terms of, you know, there's different like flavors of Christian, right? There's like Episcopalian and Catholic and Protestant, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Um, it's sort of similar with Jews. There's not like a, a shift in doctrine, right? Like there's no, like side of Judaism is like the Pope is real, the pope's not real, you know, like with Catholics and Protestants famously. Um, but. Yeah, Orthodox Jews are like, you can have an orthodox temple or a reformed temple or a conservative temple. Um, and there's some other, uh, flavors besides that, but those are sort of like the three big ones. Um, and then you get like to Ultra Orthodox and those are, you know, like, uh, Hasidic people. And, um, you know, if you live in New York, they're the people who are sitting on the street corners every, uh, uh, every year who are like, excuse me. Are you Jewish? Yeah. With like the mitzva van. Yeah, exactly. Mitzvah. Um, I, I don't know. Are there any in la I don't, I never seen a mitzvah van here. I would assume so. I mean, there's a large Jewish community in, in LA Yeah. Um, sort of in the like specific neighborhoods. Um, but yeah. So, so you weren't organized but you, was your family conservative? No, I grew up reform. Okay. The sort of like, the joke with Reformed Jews is that, you know, you go on the high Holy days and that's it. Mm. Um, but no, my family, like, we grew up going pretty much every week and then as we got older, we went like once a month or whatever. But like, I went to Wednesday school, which was like the actual, like learning the Hebrew language and I went to Sunday school, which is what you think of with Sunday school. It's like, you know, religious tutelage or whatever. Mm-hmm. Um, so, you know, so you were fairly active? Yeah, we were. And it was, we were like, it was, I would say it was a big part of our community growing up.. But that's, that's sort of like how it always felt. It felt like community rather than religion, if that makes sense. Yeah. Okay. Because I feel like Jewish, I, I feel like I've experienced that. It's, it can be like very cultural and not really as like God focused. Yeah. Yeah. And, and so I,'cause I'm, I'm not Jewish, but I have a lot of Jewish friends and I feel like that it seems to be more or less the case. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, this certainly isn't true anymore. Right? We're, we're like, uh, you know, Jews are no longer forced to live in just one part of the city, but like for a huge portion of the history of the Jewish people, like you only interact with other Jews, and so you sort of like, uh, you're, you're forced to stay away from other people. Do you think that that is like by design? What do you mean? The, like, Jews only interact, or, or you're talking about like the Hasidic community that can only interact with itself? Well, that's different. So that's, that's, that's, yeah. That's very different than like how most Jews, most modern Jews, uh, live their lives. But no, I mean like, sort of the like culture of being Jewish, especially with, uh, Ashkenazi Jews, which are, you know, Jews from the sort of like Europe. Area. There's Sephardic Jews and Ashkenazi Jews. Anyway, um, there's this sort of sense of like, uh, you kind of turtle up, you know, you're like, it's, it's safe. This is safe here. You know, being with other Jews, this is safe here because, you know, like maybe this wasn't other people's experience, but certainly for me growing up I was like always aware of the Holocaust. I was always aware of it's really important that, a Jewish community is like a tight community and that we've got everyone's back. There's sort of this like feeling of like, I don't know, that could come for us at any time. Where'd you grow up? Western Massachusetts. So like a, a very safe place, you know, like it's, um, so was that belief like instilled in you by like your family or your temple or just like, it was just like, was around you? You know, I don't know. I don't even know if that was like, if it was deliberate. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, I don't know if anyone was like. With trying to do that or if this is just like my anxiety had to find a reason to be anxious and so it was like, ah, it's'cause you're Jewish and they're gonna get you. Um, I don't know. Um, but I do feel that too, even though I grew up like much, I'm gonna say less Jewish than you. Yeah. I feel like there was some sense of you take care of Jewish people or something. I think that was from my parents though, in some way. There were like things that they said that stuck with me that made me feel like that. Yeah. I mean, is this is like super, super small, but I feel like I would, if I were meeting someone for the first time and I knew they were Jewish, I would feel like some degree of kinship toward them. Interesting. Um, just right off the bat because there's a lot of shared experience there. Yeah. You know, even if we didn't grow up in the same place, even if we didn't know any of the same people, like there's, I know at least something about who they are or where they came from. Mm. Right. That makes sense. Is there is. Your wife Jewish? No. No. Okay. Was there pressure on you to marry a Jewish woman? No, not really. I mean, nice Jewish lady. Nice. Yeah. A nice Jewish girl. Um, no. I mean, I think, I think that would've been a plus in the eyes of my parents. Um, but no, my parents are very happy with who I ended up marrying. Well, she's, that's good. Fantastic. Yeah, I think, I think there's,, a, subsection of Jewish people who would sort of be like, mm-hmm. Um, but that's, that's not really a thing. Yeah. Interesting. Has, has your faith changed since you were a child? Since or now, or, oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Um, yeah, I mean, well, like I said, like when I was a kid, the concept of God. Mm-hmm. And like, you know, all that's just sort of like presented as fact, right? It's just like, well, this is just, yeah, this is just what it is and blah, blah, blah. And then at a certain point you're like, I'm sorry, Jonah was swallowed by a what now? Mm-hmm. And he went where? Um, and the arc, wait. What? And, and at a certain point you're like, oh, this is even before, you know what metaphor is? There's sort of like an understanding for like, this isn't mm-hmm. Real. Um, how old were you when, when that hit? I don't know. So at one point you started to yeah, I mean, by the time I was old enough to have an understanding of what death was, I was, I was already sort of like, yeah, this is not fact. Mm-hmm. This is not, you know, this is, this is sort of like a, a lens through which to view the world. Mm-hmm. Um, this is a, a community. This is a set of sort of guidelines. And still to some degree is for me. Okay. You know, like it's very important to me that. I raised my kids Jewish and I raised them in a, sort of similar way to the way that I was, which is, you know, like once they're old enough to be awake this late, we'll go to synagogue and mm-hmm. Um, we'll, uh, you know, I don't think I'll send them to Sunday school, maybe, I don't know. Depends on what sort of like program the synagogue has that we go to. But, um, what do you think happens when we die? I was gonna ask that. Um, the short answer is I don't know'cause mm-hmm. I think it's much more likely that it's, you know, we are all. Made of, star stuff and the, the stuff of the universe. And when we die, we, you know, our bodies reabsorb into the soil and then it becomes something else and something else, and something else and something else. And, um, right. Matters, neither created nor destroyed. Mm-hmm. Simply changes form. Um, do you think there's a soul? I was gonna ask that. God, so syc Wow. I don't know. So I was, I don't know anything about this, but there's this question of like, what is consciousness, right? Mm-hmm. Like at what point does consciousness, um, um, and I don't know anything about this. I just saw like a headline and started to read an article and then something happened, uh, probably like a kid started screaming or something. Um, but yeah, it was like, you know, what if, uh, the universe is consciousness? Like what if consciousness is actually a thing that makes up the universe? Hmm. I think that is all the time. Yes. Continue on that specific thing. Just the u the idea of universal consciousness. I think there is a theory out there which it's like sand through my fingertips. Like I'll feel like I have it and then it just goes away. Yeah, yeah. It's not fully comprehended. Yeah. Of like, of that, like all of this stuff, the higher power is actually just all of our collective consciousness. That you are able to like, kind of ask for things and we are all connected in this way. Oh, so you can sort of if enough people think one thing, it will manifest itself. Yeah. Or that's like your prayer is actually to the higher power is actually amongst us but every time I think I can. Grapple with it. I, it eludes me. Yeah. It's too big. It's too big for like a human mind to be like. Yes. So I think, I think that's the thing is that any sort of explanation that can be given must be incorrect because if it's simple enough to be articulated Mm. And then understood by human minds, then it can't possibly be what it is, you know? Okay. Then here's a big question that we ask all the time. Are you okay with not knowing what, what's the alternative? Is there, is there a, do I have you struggle? Like, and it drives you crazy that you do not know? Oh, oh, oh, oh. I thought you were saying like, are you okay with not knowing or would you like to know? Because, because guess what? I know. Uh, I dunno. That's funny. No. Yeah, because I, I feel very. Okay. With not knowing, you know, like, yeah, we don't know. Yeah. But that's okay with me. How do you feel about that? I feel like we've got more pressing concerns. Yeah. This is, this is very far down the totem pole for me. I think my, my, uh, sort of perception, it's not really like a belief, it's more like a perception that we are all connected in a very, on like a, the most foundational, microscopic level possible. Mm-hmm. Um, uh, has some nice side effects, which is that I, I'm, I think I find it much easier to, empathize with other people, other, animals and trees and, the idea of then owning anything becomes very odd. Uh, like owning a house or owning land or whatever is like, this is mine. Mm-hmm. You're like, well, it's not though like, you're there for now and then you'll die and that land's has been there for billions of years, and we'll be there for billions of years after you're gone and like, fuck you. You know? Like, that's not yours. You have a responsibility to the land and to everyone else. Um, and so Go ahead. Yeah. So it, it, it, it also makes it very difficult when, you see everyone around you treating everything like shit, and you're like, come on man. Like, yeah. Don't, like, not only even if, even if the world didn't keep going after you died mm-hmm. Like, you're still being shit to the people who are here right now. Right. Like, even if you're not considering mm-hmm. The literally infinite number of people who could come after you, at least consider the people who are around you right now. Right. Yeah. So, do you believe that there is a higher power, or you believe that that power is our consciousness and some success, or you don't, you're, or none of that? Um hmm. Your idea of like our collective consciousness manifests into a, a individual or entity doesn't really resonate with me. Mm-hmm. But yeah, I mean, I, I can I, can I talk about drugs? Yes. Yes. Okay. I did. So, I, I, uh, I, I'm, I'm disabled. I've, I have chronic pain. I have pain 24 7, have, uh, every single moment of. Every single day since I had a back injury in 2016 and, um, I spent a long time going to doctors and specialists and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I promise this is leading to drugs. Um, and, uh, trying to like fix the problem and eventually, and fix the pain and all this stuff. And eventually I realized that I wasn't going to fix the pain. That there was really nothing I could do about like, making it go. There was tons of things that I can do and do, do every day to make it more bearable and to, you know, manage it. Yeah, manage it and all that sort of stuff. But, um, I was talking with this, uh, pain specialist, a sort of like holistic pain mm-hmm. Doctor. And she was like, so listen, if you can't change the pain. Perhaps you can change your experience of the pain. She was talking about the difference between pain and suffering, right? Like, pain is unavoidable, but suffering can be a choice. You know, you don't need to suffer if you're in pain. Um, and she was like, I think you should consider, uh, doing, psilocybin assisted therapy. Mm-hmm. Um, there's this person I know I'm not gonna give any details because it's still very much mm-hmm. Like, illegal to be doing this, which is crazy because Yeah, there's, it is, I'm a big advocate for it. So I had a feeling that you were going to say it was psilocybin. Yeah. Um, so it ended up, it ended up being, so I, I ended up working with this person, um, who's, uh, a licensed therapist and has a practice and, you know, all of these things is not licensed to do this part. Mm-hmm. Um, but they saw how. Effective it was how impactful it was. And so they were like, I think this is act like this is part of my calling. Mm wow. And so they do like solo sessions. And so I did a bunch of, um, like preparatory sessions with them, and then had like the, the journey, uh, with the medicine and then a couple of sort of like debrief sessions afterwards. Okay. How long ago was that? Um, this must have been like two and a half, three years ago, something like that. Okay. Okay. And you only did the once. Just did it the once. Oh, okay. Um, and it ended up being MDMA. And, uh, psilocybin and then, uh, like a little bit of ketamine at the end mm-hmm. To sort of like ease the landing is how they described it. Okay. Um, and during this experience, I had this very, you know, stereotypical experience of, of the realization, the understanding that we're all connected and mm-hmm. You know, I got to be a tree for a little bit. That was pretty cool. What kind of tree were you? Um, one with like really fucking deep roots. Na ooh. Oh, I love that. Love that. Um, yeah, just this massive tree. It was really cool. Uh, and at some point during this experience, I, uh, encountered this benevolent entity, this like incredibly powerful, benevolent entity. And it was like, it makes me think of, you know, when you go to like a reptile house in a zoo or something, there's that glass there. Mm-hmm. It was like, this entity has been looking at me through the glass for my whole life. Mm. Or since I've been an adult or something. And then with the help of this medicine, the glass was gone and the entity was like, so cool. Oh dude, I've got so much to tell you. I've been trying to talk to you for so long, and like you can finally listen. This is amazing. And like, downloaded me on all of this stuff that they were like, here's the thing that you need to know about you. Okay. Wait, wait. I saw my question. Yeah. I answered my questions too. What did it look like? I, there, I didn't, there was no like idea of, a physical form of what it,'cause my eyes were closed. Okay. And like there was, this was not like a, this was not a hallucination. Yeah. Or I guess it was just not like a, a visual halluc hallucination. This was like just. Sort of, you know, when you're sitting on the couch and you can sort of feel someone next to you. Okay. Yeah. And if you know the, if you know the person that's there, like, you know, I can close my eyes and be like, I can tell that that's Ari even though I can't see you. Mm-hmm. Just based off mm-hmm. My, my brain is just, that's airy. Right. Um, it was the same sort of thing where it was like, I just, I know that this thing is here. Mm-hmm. And it wasn't like it was talking to me. It was like, it was just imparting these ideas into my brain that were clear it was coming from someplace else. Mm-hmm. Um, do you feel comfortable saying what they said? Yeah, I guess. I mean, it was a lot of stuff that's like really specific to me, but the big thing, the takeaway, um, that I, I came away with was just that like, uh, you you have to accept love. In order to be able to give love. Mm. I'm writing that down in my little notebook that I, I've, like, I'm, I'm had been, and still this is something I'm still working with, want to like give love and want to take care of people and want to, you know, help people and, you know, and then when it comes time to take care of myself, I'm like, no, no, I don't deserve that. Mm. Like, that's not, that's self-indulgent. That's, you know, whatever, the same thing that I would tell someone else. Like, yeah, take a day off, dude. Like, what's wrong? Yeah. Take a day off. You have to take care of yourself. Um, I was just not at all okay with that and I still, I still struggle with that. Um, is that a learned behavior at all? Like, is that from your dad? Oh, I'm, I'm sure it's from somewhere in my life, right? Yeah. Like, I'm sure right. Is we're all a, a product of. The sum total of our experiences or whatever that Yeah. Expression or that saying is, but it was this idea of, like, I had just had this idea of, okay, there's, there's these two people or these two engines, that's probably a better way to explain it. Like, there's these two engines and they're connected by two pipes and, um, they're like pumping water back and forth. And if I'm, I keep trying to pump water towards this other engine, and if I don't accept water in the other side, it's not gonna go anywhere. Right. Right. You know, it has to be, it has to circulate. I have to accept love in order to be able to give love. And if you can't accept love, like you're stopping other people from being able to give you love. And that's also something that they need. And so it's, yeah, it was it was great. It was like handed to me in the, in this box. I. I forget where I, I, uh, heard this, but there's this way of, of thinking or this tool, uh, with, with thinking where you can like, think about an idea and then like put it in a box and then put that box somewhere. Like the mind catalyst or something. A room. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, and I had never really done that before, but it was like, it was just given to me in such a neat little box that I was like, okay, great. Like you have given Thank you entity. You have given me this like, amazing piece of knowledge. I'm gonna keep it in this box so I can get it whenever I want to. And I'm gonna put it over here. Yeah. What else you got? And it was just it was a really great experience. So all of this is a very long answer to your question. No, it's very interesting. Yeah. Do you believe it? Yeah. Is there like, some entity, is there some higher power? I don't think there's, there's no reason for me to believe that this is like a singular being. Sure. Uh, there's also no reason for me to believe that there isn't or that there like. I, I'm, I am, I guess very bearish on the idea of like a Judeo-Christian God that, like, you know, old man white beard ruling over everything. Yeah. It's triggering, I think doesn't doesn't, yeah. Doesn't really do it for me. Um, but yeah,, I think the idea that the cosmos is large enough, uh, that like there could even be multiple right. Semi divine entities that work in very different ways. Mm. And you know, like, um, I think it's interesting, my friend, who we talked about also took mushrooms not in a controlled environment. Like Yeah. Like, like in a while I also taking mushrooms not in a Yeah. You know, it's like Yeah. It's a very different experience. Yeah. Yeah. And he had the same realization of we are all one. And he was like living in the collective consciousness and it was like, none of it. None of it. I don't wanna say none of it matters because he was just kind of like, we're all taking care of each other. And it's just interesting that you say that. A lot of people have that experience.'cause that makes me be like, okay, it's gotta be true. Right? Like, I mean, how could, how could all of these people have a right. It, it is a stereotypical experience, right? For, uh, this type of hallucinogenic drug. Mm. But it's also interesting that you had almost like both experiences. The idea we're all connected, but there's also this entity other, I guess we're kind of calling it higher being entity. Entity. Yeah. You know, it's almost like I don't see those two ideas as being at odds though. No. It can all exist. Explain. Well, I mean, if, if we're all connected we can, we can all be connected or not connected and there can be a god or a higher power. Mm-hmm. Or we can all be connected or not and not connected and there could not be. Right. Those two things. Or it's like, you know, the couch can be both soft and blue. Like they're kind of unrelated. Okay. Yeah, I see what you mean. Yeah. I wanna circle back for a second to you saying about the back injury. Yeah. Did that change your faith at all or did you go, so when you were growing up, the, this idea of God was sort of present. Mm-hmm. But did you feel like you believed in God or kind of were skeptical to not really believing it. Yeah. But like skeptical implies that I'm like actively thinking of it, like concerned about it. Sure. And I just, like, I had no concerns about this. Okay. Because it really didn't have, not to say that being Jewish didn't have an impact on my life, but whether or not the, the God that Jews talk about is like correct. Mm-hmm. Just doesn't, doesn't never really matter to me. Okay. And then when you, I think my rabbi would actually be, I'm very proud to hear me say that. Yeah, that's great. She was awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Well'cause it,'cause it, she's still, she's alive. Yeah, that's right. She's not my rabbi anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. Because, because you felt that she was more focused on like the community and not so much the Yeah, I think she was, she was focused on what the, thousands of years of history and teachings and Jewish scholars and modern context and all. Like what all of this can teach us about how to be good human beings. Mm. Um, I think that was more her concern. I remember she had a sermon and my take, I don't know if this is what she was intending. I think so, but my takeaway was basically like, it's during the High Holy Days, which is, you know, Jewish New Year. And basically there's this idea of you get to be inscribed in the book of life, uh, for the next year at this, at, you know, this time. Um, and if you're not, then you're gonna die. And if you are, then like, great, you get to live for another year. And in order to be inscribed in the book of life, you have to, make amends with yourself, with God, with people you've brought, you know, this sort of thing. And it's, a built in time to take stock, to be like, you know, hey. How are we doing? How am I doing with my family? How am I doing with my friend? And, the sermon was about basically you don't have to ask God to put you in the book of life. There are a lot of prayers that say that, this is literally the doctrine, right? You have to ask God to put your name in the book of life. But it is much more important to take care of the things that you can take care of, to take care of the people around you, to make sure that, you know, your relationships with your family are good to, you know, live your life in a way that you can be proud of throughout the whole year. And then basically just have faith that if you do that, you're good. Yeah. And don't worry about God. Like whether God's there, whether he is not there, whether he's looking at you or listening or writing your name down or not. Like you don't have any control over that. Yeah. It can seem kind of end goal ish. I was gonna say too, or least I, I mean, I'm not very religious, but like the God I grew up with my stepdad being Catholic and stuff like that, you know, it's like Jesus died our sins. Mm. And you know, so there is that inherent suffering. Suffer you sacrifice. Yeah. Um, okay. So did the back injury make you revisit your faith at all? No. Okay. No. Do you feel like anything is predestined? Do you feel like it's all free? Will? I, I don't know. I, I, I don't, I think that, Hmm. How, how should I phrase this? Fate versus free will. Uh, well, so my brain's going like a different million different places. Yeah. But basically there's, there's like the neuroanatomy side of things, right? Where you can detect. Someone's thoughts bef like they're, they do the action before they receive the electoral impulses to like, uh, the seven seconds thing, or like your brain. I, I don't know what that is, but yeah, you're, you're something like, you know what you're gonna say seven seconds before you say it. Yeah. You, I don't know. Okay. Um, so I like, there's like a neuroanatomy side to it. There's also like a math side to it, but I, I think what I wanted distill the, my answer to this question down to is that, um, it doesn't matter. Uh, and that it seems to me that if you feel really strongly about it being one or the other, that that's because you need that to be true. In order to justify the way you've been living your life or in order to maintain hope and this, these are not necessarily bad things, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, if, if you are, even if you're not consciously choosing, even if this is like a subconscious, like I need to believe that this is true mm-hmm. Thing, um, that's okay. But I think that looking at, looking at it in such binary, in such a binary way of like, everything is free will, everything is predetermined, can only be, a tool to let us think the things that we want to think and live the way that we want to live. And it all just seems like sort of a, a justification after the fact. Well, a lot of people say both. I feel like we've had a lot of people on here who feel that there are certain markers I. That have happened, cowards, cowards, all of them right here. Um, okay. Wait. Okay. I have some, I'm going to ask you two questions at once.'cause then if I don't, I'm just gonna get sidetracked. Okay. My first question is when I text you to ask you to do this podcast mm-hmm. You told me that you feel that you're good at art, but you're a bad artist. Yeah. And I don't know what that means. Hold that thought. Okay. Here's the second part, part two. Part two is right before we started recording, you were talking about how you are kind of in question of if you can be an actor because of your disability. Yeah. And I would like to hear how that has changed things for you. Um, okay. Which, which one should I start with? Let's start with the bad artist one. Okay. Yeah. Um, so I think this sort of. Let's simplify it and say, and talk about it just from an actor point of view. Right? Okay.'cause like you can be, you know, an artist and not be an actor, be a director, blah, blah, blah. But let's just, for simplicity's sake, let's take the lens of like, just as an actor, let's pretend I'm only an actor, I don't do anything else. Okay. It is possible to be an incredibly good actor, an incredibly, talented, technically skilled, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, actor, and be terrible at the actual job of being an actor. Right? Like the job of being an actor until you're, you know, not auditioning for things anymore and you just get offered roles is mostly not acting right. It's mostly like, all of the shit that goes around being an actor. It's mostly the auditions and. You know, emails and writing to casting directors and agents and Yeah. You know, networking and, you know, like just all of the shit that goes into being an actor that's not acting. Mm-hmm. I mean, like, the amount of time in my life that I've spent actually acting is like tiny compared to the amount of time in my life I've spent doing all of those other things. Mm-hmm. Um, and so when I say I think what I said is something like, I make good art, but I'm bad at being an artist. Mm-hmm. I think I'm, I, I've become really bad at, and maybe I always have been really bad at like, doing all of the, the things that I know one needs to do in order to be able to get to the point where they get to do, where they get to act. You know, like the business stuff and like marketing the business stuff like. I just, I hate small talk. I hate it. I don't like pretending that this transactional relationship is anything other than a transactional relationship. I don't like pretending that this person who I'm meeting, for the first time is like,, deeply concerned with, me or anything about me. Or like, these, these people are, are by and large, not some people are, and that's great. But like the social contract of we're gonna smile and nod and be nice to each other, uh, and then not ever think about each other ever again. Because of course we're not going to, because you can't keep everyone in your brain all at once. Your head would explode. Um. So like, I don't fault them for, for not, deeply caring about everyone they meet. That's totally fine. Don't deeply care about everyone you meet. But then don't pretend that you do, you know, are you talking, is it, is there somebody in your mind that you're thinking of right now that's like, like the casting world, the director world, the agent world, or? No, so no, not anyone specific. I think it's, I think that it's not even specific to our industry or any industry. I think that this is, this is largely how people work. Mm. Where you meet someone new and, I mean, I'm sounding like a misanthrope here, but like when people ask you the question, so, oh my God, this is, this is a question. This gets actually into the back stuff a little bit, which is interesting, but like when people ask, Hey, how are you? Mm-hmm. Or, Hey, how's it going? Yeah. Mm-hmm. I deeply struggle with that question. Yeah. Because the reality is terrible, right? Like, oh, uh, I'm in constant pain. Yeah. Um, it dramatically impacts my mood and, uh, everything in my life. And it has fundamentally changed who I am as a person and how I perceive the world. And, you know, but like they're not even really asking anything. They're just saying like, I see that you were in this room with me and I'm doing the social nicety thing of acknowledging you. Mm-hmm. But I, I, I hate lying. I like, it makes me physically uncomfortable to be dishonest. Um, I think because when I was, I was little, I lied a lot. Really? I didn't know that about you when I was, when I was like little, little. Mm-hmm. I mean also, also when I was in like middle school and stuff,, I was very good at it to the point where, actually this was interesting. I, a couple years ago. Was like referencing this, I was talking to my dad and my brother and I was referencing like, well, you know, like when I was little, I lied all the time. And they were like, what are you talking about? Mm. And I was like, when I, when I was a kid and I used to just like, make things up and lie all the time. They were like, I have no idea what you're talking about. Wow. And I was like, I was amazing at this. So anyway, so I, it makes me like physically uncomfortable to do it now. And yeah, I think that's, that's like a large portion of my social anxiety is that I'll have to like, go to a thing and mm-hmm. Put on the show, put on the mask. And you didn't feel that you had to do that before you got injured? That's like a new part of your personality? No, I mean, I, I, I think I wasn't as aware of that masking. I didn't have nearly as much to mask back then. Mm-hmm. Um. With these like industry relationships that you're talking about? Yeah. Is it the pretense that got you? Or was it the idea of asking for something? Well, it's a, it's a little bit of both. I mean, as we've, as we've covered, I have difficulty accepting help or love, love. That's what I, that's what, yeah. Yeah. Any, so like, yeah. I mean, asking for anything for myself feels like deeply wrong on this, you know, which I understand is problematic and is not helpful and mm-hmm. You know, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff. But, um, but still, like, sort of in my core feels that way. Mm-hmm. Um, and it's very much not that for, uh, for like friends of mine, like when I. Uh, I directed a show that my friend Doug, uh, uh, did, he's a one man show, and it was really excellent and we talked about it in his episode. Oh, you directed. Oh, cool. Okay. Nice. And we, and I was really proud of him and all the work that he did, and, at like networking events. It was, and this has never ever been true for me before when I'm talking about myself and my own work. Mm-hmm. It was so easy for me to go up to people and be like, Hey, you gotta know about this show. Yeah. This show is really cool. My friend Doug wrote it. It's like, it's got music, it's got blah, blah, blah, blah. And like, you know, just jumping into it. And that's, it was easier than it ever been for me because it wasn't about me. Right. Yes. I was, I was like doing this and yeah, I directed the show and I think I did a pretty good job, but like, uh, it was a really good show, but it was, it was like, in my head it was like, no, this is for Doug. Interesting. We were just talking about this before you came. Yeah. That's crazy because I went, I had a film and a film festival this weekend, I was able to talk about the podcast a lot because first of all, I feel like it could actually help people. But yeah, like I was telling Livy, I really noticed the difference in it's just a bunch of awkward filmmakers. Like, Hey, this is what my film's about. What about your film? I was like, I don't really wanna talk about my film, but like, are you low? Like, like this could help, but I wonder if that's just an innate quality to you, or just I don't know, the kind soul, like you just don't wanna take anything for yourself. Where's that coming from? Oh, I, that's very charitable view. I think it's, uh, deep seated self-loathing. Really? Yeah. Do you feel like you've always had that? I don't think so. I think I, I think I sort of had, I was certainly not to this degree. Uh, I think I have always had a bit of an inferiority complex, um, you know, the youngest of three boys, and I was always like a little kid, uh, like a physically small person. Um, and, uh, yeah, so I always felt as though I had something to prove and, and that I wasn't being given the opportunity to do so and blah, blah, blah. So, I'm sorry. Wait, what was the question? Um, where does it, where does it come from? Self-loathing. Oh, self-loathing. Where does it come from? So has it always been there? Yeah. Uh mm. Not, not to this degree. And I'm, I'm definitely working on it. Something I'm, I like something I talk about all the time, therapy and mm-hmm. Like, it's, uh, something I'm making massive improvements on. So I'm gonna give myself a gold star for that gold star. You give you a gold starly. Also, something that I have learned from therapy is that I need to like, actually say out loud, I'm giving myself a gold star for that.'cause otherwise I just won't give myself credit for it. Yeah. You should go buy a pack of gold stars. Yes. Kids love that. The thing is, if I did that, they would be gone in a day. Yeah. The kids and my entire house would be covered in gold stars. Yeah. Um, yeah. But no, it's, it's, uh, certainly since, since my injury, uh, the self-loathing has definitely ticked up significantly. Yeah. But also, you know, I think it's being an actor, being an artist in general, uh. Not at all to say that it's, it's necessary. It's not necessary. I think the idea of a, of a tortured artist is the only artist who can make good art. I think that's bullshit. Yeah. But, um, I think so many tortures artists makes or so many, so much good art is made by tortured artists. Not because tortured artists make good art, but because art makes people tortured artists. Ah-huh. Yeah. A hundred percent. Um, right. And, uh, yeah, so I think it's some self-loathing from, you know, the rejection you, you face with that. And, um, did acting give you some relief from that self-loathing? The actual like process of acting? The actual performance? Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I'm an actor, probably primarily because I get to pretend not to be me for a little bit, or even more than that. I get to, no, that's not right. That's sort of like the idea of what people have. It's not that it's, I get to pretend to not be me for a little bit. It's, I think the thing I enjoy about being an actor is I get to like, drill down on one part of who I am that seems not the same, but sort of like related mm-hmm. To something that everyone else experiences. The example I'm thinking of right now is I am working on this story, I'm working on this story. I'm like kicking around this idea in my head of like, what is this? What is this story? What is this story that I want to tell? How do I want to tell it? Uh, where when I tell people I'm disabled. My primary concern, something I like, think about all the time is my primary concern is making them feel as little awkwardness as possible When I say that, because it's a jarring thing to hear, and I'm always so concerned for other people's emotional wellbeing that when I'm like, you know, uh, hey, so I'm disabled or I can't do that because this, or, you know, actually blah, blah, blah, I have to do that. And not feeling as though I, because I, I don't, my disability is, is not visible. Um, and I think I, I, I do seem like a grumpy person, but I think that's just like, that, you just assume I'm grumpy. Not that I'm in constant pain, right? Like it. I think I, I don't really feel as though I fit into the like, able-bodied world. I definitely don't fit into the able-bodied world. But also there's this idea of like, well, yeah, I've got the placard and yeah. Like I'm officially, I'm disabled and yeah. Actually I am physically unable to do a lot of things. You don't, but I don't feel, yeah. Like, I don't feel as though I belong there. So like that, that struggle of like sort of being in between two worlds and sort of like wrestling with this, even though my disability isn't new, my sort of like acknowledgement of it is, mm, this, it's what it is, is essentially like an identity crisis. Yeah. And even though so few people can relate to, oh, you're now disabled, but you didn't used to be like the thing that makes that, uh, an interesting. Story. An interesting thing for me to examine as an artist is that everyone understands an identity crisis. Right? Right. Very true. Everyone understands like, wait, I thought I was this thing. I thought my life was gonna be this thing. And it's not. And it's not my fault and there's nothing anyone can do about it. And pretending is just gonna make it worse. That's, that's the interesting, um, interesting thing to me is like super, super specific to what I know. Oh, uh, why, what do I love about being an actor? Um, it's, uh, being an artist, it's, it's taking drilling down and finding something in myself that's super, super specific to just me. And exploring that in a way that other people can be like, I recognize myself in that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Or I recognize my friend or my. You know, partner or my, you know, whatever. Yeah. I'm gonna ask a kind of a yucky question then I'm probably gonna edit out, honestly. But like, is part of it for you, this sort of actor kind of, um, identity crisis is like, if you were in a wheelchair, in some ways the industry would favor that? You know what I'm saying? Like, then it's like, this is a disabled person who we have on our TV show. I think, I think to a, I think to a certain degree. I mean, look, this is a huge conversation and we're not gonna like, solve it, right? Yeah. But my, my feeling about this is that what I have thought about this in the past is Before, before the pandemic, uh, when I was auditioning more regularly, uh, and I had the inter injury, but it wasn't really quite as bad as it is now. Um, I was managing it fairly well. I didn't tell anyone professionally. Mm-hmm. And I would get to a point in an audition process, or in passing process or whatever, and I would then be like, I, I gotta say something, like, I gotta disclose this if I, you know, if show up on set and they're like, we need you to do this. And I'd be like, I can't do that. It's the dishonesty thing, right? Yeah. Like, I just, I can't, yeah. Yeah. Um, and so I think I,. I had very few auditions where I just pretended that not that nothing was wrong. Mm-hmm. And then I talked to my manager at the time about it and I was like, I can't, I can't do this. I have to like, tell people up front. and I, were they supportive of that idea? Uh, they, I don't know that it was because of this. I do not know that it was because of this. Mm-hmm. But they dropped me as a client. Wow. Immediately after we had that conversation. I dunno it because of that. I'm sorry. That is so shitty. That's so shitty. Um, yeah. And then there was the pandemic and then I had kids and, uh, I. You know, so I haven't, I haven't really been, auditioning and, uh, I've been doing like small projects here and there, um, teaching coaching. Mm-hmm. Uh, but I think a huge reason why I haven't gone back to it, why I haven't tried to go back to it, is I, I don't think anyone wants to deal with all of the headaches of working with someone who has, uh, allowances that they need, that other people don't without getting sort of like the credit Yeah. So it's a struggle of like, you know, do I disclose this ahead of time? Yes. I have to because my, like, I can't, I can't be dishonest about it. I like just can't. Yeah. Um, but also then do I, is that then who I am? Am I, like, am I the, an actor who can only play disabled parts? Right. Like, I don't think that's true for me. Yeah. Um, and I, you know, I, I, I have to do TV and film only. Like, I can't go on stage because like TV and film, if I need to lie down, like immediately. Sometimes what happens is that my muscles will clench up and, um, if I don't basically stop my muscles from doing everything anything like right away. Mm-hmm. Uh, I'll. My whole body will lock up and i'll, my muscles will basically just like tear my body apart. Just not, it's not fun. If you've ever had an anxiety attack, like a full body anxiety attack, it's a similar sort of feeling, um, like physically a similar sort of feeling. Uh, geez. And so I can just lie down for a little bit and then like, you know, it passes or whatever, and I can stand up and do the thing again. But like, if I'm on stage, I can't do that shit. Right. And also, like, being on stage and the rehearsal process and just like the physical demands of being on stage, I have found to be much greater than the physical demands of being on set. Mm. It was just the projects I've worked on. Um, but, uh, yeah, I, I, I think, I think that that theater is, is outta reach for me. And that's a huge, like, saying that out loud is, is really, really difficult for me because. My, my whole like entry into the world of art was through Shakespeare. And I thought, I like, truly believed that I would get to play, throughout the course of my life, I would get to play like, pretty much every single role in the cannon. Just like as I got to the appropriate age or, you know, whatever. And that's just not an option anymore. And, uh, that was such a huge part of my identity and it's still, you know, it's still a huge Shakespeare and, and the performance of it and using it as a tool for actors and all that is still a huge part of, of what I do. It's just, I'm not gonna be like, I'm not gonna be the one doing it. Hmm. I'm crying, huh? Yeah. I don't know how we got onto this. I asked it, I think. Yeah. Oh, about, uh, we also asked a double question of identity as well too. And Yeah, man, now I'm also, yeah. Hmm. I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah, too. Do you, I mean, you don't have to answer, uh, this because I, I don't know if I'm Yeah. But like. Would you ever try to do like a one man show about all your, like would you, is there a way to return a theater on your terms? Does that make sense? Like, I mean, I think, I think there could be a place for it. Like, uh, in a fringe show, in like a, you know, like a small black box theater where if you have to lay down, you can't, like it's your show. Yeah. Where the show is. Like, that's what I mean. Like the show is about like, hey, sorry guys. Like I'm, I, at some point I might have to lay down and if I do, like, that's just what's gonna happen. Right. Um, but in a very sort of, uh, like confessional style, you know? Right. That's why this is me. That's why I was hesitant.'cause it's like, I know that's not, you know. Yeah, maybe. But I, I don't know. I just, there is part of me that, yeah, I mean, look, there is, there is absolutely, uh, like a show there. If I, if I wanted to make it, um, yeah. That I could, I could probably physically do. Um, I don't, it's certainly not something that I feel I have a enough of a handle on yet. In terms of like what is the, why am I doing the show? Right. Okay. You know, like, right. Yeah. You have to want to do this. Yeah. And it wouldn't like you. Yeah. Having, having the reason of like, well, I want to do theater is not really a sufficient reason for me to, um, ask, well, this is oof, oof, this is a fucking problem. But the thought I just had was me having the feeling of the thought I wanna do. Theater is not a sufficient reason to ask people to come sit and watch me do theater. You know, um, it kind of all goes back to that love thing. Yeah. But to a certain extent, like that's, that's kind of right. Like, I don't want to go see Masturbatory self-congratulatory theater. I wanna go see it. But I would, I wanna go see that show. I would see that show if the person creating it,, had, had something to share. You know, like if the show was, was constructed in a way where I had, I had some takeaway from it, you know, like it would give me a, give me a different perspective. It gave me, uh, you know, an insight into myself or someone that I love. You know, like the, the reason that, that I, the same reason I gave her, like, you know, why I like being an artist, the thing I like most about being an artist. Mm-hmm. Like, I look for that when I go consume art as well. I think there's no way it wouldn't have some sort of takeaway. I mean, yeah, yeah. I mean, I, I agree with Ari, but I think that on the same level, you also have to feel that way. Yeah. Right, right. Like I, I, I, yeah, I think that you do have that story, but yeah. Who am I to say, you know, like there's also like, you know, perfectionism stands in the way of everything that I do and, you know, perfectionism is the death of joy. The last play I did, I wrote that on my mirror because anytime I tried to Perfect. Yeah. Yeah. So is there a a because I think if I was in this situation,'cause I love things to be black and white and I like constantly fight against my, my like yearning to just have things be one or the other. Is there a way in which it would feel better for you to just be like, I can't do Shakespeare. I'm releasing all of it, releasing even the possibility of film releasing one person show, releasing this, like, I'm not going to do that. Yeah, I think that would be, I think that would be really nice. Um, I, it's a conversation I've been having with my wife of like, you know, okay, so. If I'm not this, who am I? Do I want to say definitively I'm not this anymore? Mm-hmm. Does that make sense? If I said that, would I be lying? Like, uh, it's, it's a, it's a, something that I'm actively thinking about, you know? Yeah. And I don't have an answer. Right. I mean, I, I think, I think theoretically, yeah, it would be great to be like, alright, I don't have to think about that anymore. Like, I get to go, yeah. Do something else. It's like the, the people that we went to acting school with who aren't actors anymore, you know, like yes. There's the vast majority of people we went to acting school with are not acting, acting anymore. And some of them I'm sure have regrets, but some of them I'm sure do not. Yeah. You know, they were just called and something and they were just like, no, I, I experienced that. It was not fun. I did not like it. Like, I like acting. I did not like being an actor. Right. Um, and, uh, and yeah, now I get to go be a psychologist or, you know, whatever. Yeah. And, yeah, there's, there's like part of me that just thinks, man, that would be fucking awesome. Mm-hmm. To like, but I, but I, I cannot imagine, I cannot imagine living my life without creating, at least attempting to create that kind of art that I look for. Being, being separated from the, from the creative process. Like behind a behind glass, only, only looking at it from the audience. But this isn't, I mean, even if you decided not to act anymore, you could still write and direct and Yeah. Yeah. Unless you think it would be, I mean, I think it's a tough thing'cause I feel like we talk a lot about how acting the only benefit to it is nobody ever kicks you out. And as you age, things get different. Like there are less people when you're a 65-year-old. I should, I have to stop saying 65. That was our last thing. When you're like a 72-year-old guest star actor, how many 72 year olds really want it? Then it's just gonna be like me and this Biddy who just started acting yesterday, like hello. You know? But, but I think in this case it's hard'cause like it feels like you have been kicked out. Kind of the impossible has happened in a way where it's like a physical thing that is, I think it's very interesting that you say the one thing actors have is that they can't be kicked out. I think that, I would never have thought that, I mean, actors are kicked out constantly, but of their, well, they can kick themselves out of their own volition. Nobody is like, you can't, you must stop acting. I think there's also the difference of an actor, can always, you know, there's always gonna be community theater. Maybe not professionally, right? Yeah. There's always gonna be like, that person will always be an actor. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Well,'cause like in comparison to sports, out soccer careers over kids. Oh, you don't, you don't age out out. You don't age out. I see. You know? Yes. You don't, you don't age out of being an actor until you can't remember your lines anymore, but, yeah. Yeah. Um, and if it a rep drops you, there's other rep or, yeah. There's like so many I don't know, potholes along the way. Yeah, yeah. But in this instance, it's not really like you were called to something else. It doesn't feel from what you're talking about, like, it was of your own volition. Yeah. No, it doesn't, it doesn't feel that way. And so I think, I think your question of would it be nice to, to be like, okay, that's not me anymore. Moving on. Right. That sounds real nice.'cause that's at least me choosing, that's at least me pretending to be in control. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Could that look like? Yeah. Pursuing writing more, doing, still creating stories. Yeah. Still doing what you love Yeah. But in different facet. Yeah. I mean, it, I think, I think, look, if, if you're asking me to put money on what Jake Elitzer is doing five years from now mm-hmm. I think the odds are very low that I am, working primarily as an actor. I think the way I'll be spending most of my, creative time and energy is, you know, writing, directing, teaching, coaching. Like, I think that's, that's the most likely outcome. And, and I honestly, I don't hate that. Mm. That's great. If, if I get to, if I get to do that then I am, the second luckiest person in the world, right? Mm-hmm. The luckiest person in the world gets to go do the thing that they always wanted to do with the Shakespeare and the whatever, but like right. I don't get to do that. And so I don't get to complain if all I get is the second most desirable outcome, you know, like, well, it's, but I think you're right to grieve. Like, I think you are valid in your feelings of Yeah. Yeah. Not, not to say that, like, I'm not, I'm not allowed to feel disappointed that I don't, don't get to have that thing. But you know, I, I, I think that feeling disappointed that you only get the number two most desirable option is like, C come on. Mm-hmm. Like, what do you really, what did you expect from your life that you thought only the greatest things ever? Only the absolute best things ever come on. Something that you gotta find joy. You gotta find joy in like, in the things that, that you have. Yeah. Yeah. Where you actually are. There's this book that I'm reading. Oh my God. No way. Oh my gosh. She's mentioned this episode. Every, I mean, it's honestly, I, me to read it because it really, it relates, it so relates. It's called Code of the Extraordinary Mind. Okay. And they talk about end goals. And this also dovetails with what Doug was saying, which Doug was like, I wanna be a storyteller. And that Oh, that's how I describe Doug Harvey. Yes. When people were like, mm-hmm. Doug, blah, blah, blah. Like, what's he, I'm like, Doug is the best storyteller I have ever known. Yes. He's the greatest storyteller I've ever known. And I don't mean that in the sort of uh, how does an artist describe themselves? Well, I'm a storyteller. No, he's like, he is when he tells a story. Mm-hmm. Whether it's in character or just Doug Harvey telling a story, it's he's fucking entrancing. Yeah. I just love. I just love watching him. That's so funny that you use the, the phrase storyteller. Yeah. That's, that's what he is. Right? So that, so when he came, we were talking about it after, because there's something about Doug that has like no ego about it. Yeah. And what he said was like, because he can story tell when he was in marketing, he was still storytelling. Yeah. He wrote his own thing. When he's acting, he's storytelling. He, it, it is an un-loseable goal. Like he can be a storyteller no matter what. And Code of Extraordinary Mind was talking about making end goals that are un-loseable like that. Like instead of saying I want my end goal to be that I am married and have children and I'm with them forever. Like, you could, I mean, something can happen. Yeah. That, that is a goal. That is losable. Instead of saying, I want to be surrounded by love. That's a goal that you can make happen. You know what I mean? So anyway, there was something you said that triggered that For me, see, my, my, um, thought with that is I think that that idea rubs me the wrong way because. It seems to me that it's saying, don't set lofty goals when, right now in my, in my journey with like mental health and wellness and all that stuff. Mm-hmm. What I want to say is like, yeah. Set lofty goals and then be okay with failure. Mm. Do it, try it, keep going. You fail, you get knocked down, you get back up. Right? Yeah. Like, I am, I as a perfectionist am so terrified of failure. Yeah. That it prevents me from doing quite often. And then just building up that muscle of, of yeah, it didn't work out. It's not the end of the world. Try again. Yeah. You know, like, this is a really important part of learning. Actually, I was, I was talking, who was I talking with the other day about this? But I was talking to someone the other day about this. With like, in regards to my kids, one of the things that I'm like trying to instill in them, probably, I think I said like the most important thing I'm trying to instill in them is, I do not care whether you get it right. Yeah. I, I want you to try. Mm-hmm. And I want you to fail and realize that failure is just part of it. Yeah. It's like it's, you cannot get better if you do not fail. I actually heard this, I don't, I don't remember where, but every day instead of what'd you do at school today? Mm-hmm. Or whatever the question was, would you fail at today? Mm-hmm. Yeah. What did you try? I mean, that's maybe extreme, but like Yeah. The idea. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, constantly saying to my daughter, oh, it's very brave to try something new. Even when the new thing she tried is like a different kind of cheese or whatever, you know, like Right. Just like constantly reinforcing. Yeah. Blue cheese is kind of gross. Yeah. Not big on blue cheese. You know, that's a hard thing to get rid of. The perfectionist street. Yeah. Um. Um, okay. So what are some practices, they don't have to be necessarily spiritual, but in your day-to-day life today? Mm-hmm. Or if you're in a really down spot mm-hmm. What's something you do to help bring yourself out of it? Um, SSRIs are a huge help. Okay. Um, so this is, this is a, um, like a very active, I'm like actively experimenting with Okay. Ideas behind these, this question. Um, one of the things I've been in, trying out recently sort of in test driving is just being okay with being down. Mm. Uh, and letting myself be in that place. Mm-hmm. And then. And not, not feeling the need to hide it. Mm-hmm. Right. Which is tricky with kids, right? Yeah. That with kids, you gotta, you know, so my kids are, are maybe a little more exposed to this than, like, by necessity than, than most kids are. Just because, like, there are constantly times where they're like, Hey, I wanna do this. I'm like, ah, I'm sorry munchkin. I can't, I'm my body can't do that right now, is what I say. Mm-hmm. My body can't do that right now. Or, my body needs me to lay down or my body, you know, like whatever. Um, I have so many games that can be played with my kids while I'm lying down. Yeah. Um, and I can't hide that from them, and I don't want them to feel as though it's something shameful. It's just sort of like, you know, I, I'm always saying to'em like, you know, everybody is different. Yeah. My daughter is asking me like, why can mama do this thing, but you can't do this thing? Or Why can Uncle Sammy do this thing, but you can't do this thing? And my response is always like, well, everybody is different, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, and that's okay. Yeah. Uh, and so I think to go back to your question of like, uh, you know, how do you, how do you get yourself out of it, um, right now, and it has been fairly successful so far. The experiment is, don't feel the need to get out of it. Be where you are when you're there. Notice it examine. Look, sometimes it's just chemical imbalance. There's nothing I can do. Like my brain will come up with a reason why I am feeling depressed, even though like the depression is there and now I'm just rationalizing why I'm depressed. Right, right. Sometimes that is true, but sometimes I am depressed because I, there's this thought that's been eating away at me. Mm-hmm. And I have just believed it to be true. And then once I'm like. Aware. And once I'm, I'm aware of that, I'm feeling depressed, I can be like, oh, okay, I'm feeling depressed. Where is that coming from? It's this thought, is that thought helpful? Hmm. Is it true? And quite often the answer is no. Right? Like, can, can I be certain that it's true? Mm-hmm. Um, oh man, that, that reminds me. There's this, oh, what's her name? There's this woman who wrote a book. It's a great book. And she talks about, I'm gonna butcher this, but like, she talks about how so much of our pain is caused by, just believing things that are not true. Yeah. That like we believe. Yeah. Is it Mel Robbins? No. Okay. Um, and, and she's like, there's three questions and, uh. The first two are you, like, you think about you, you have the thought, and then you think about, is this thought true? Mm-hmm. And the second question is, can I be absolutely certain that this thought is true? Okay. You know, because the, you're, it's like asking again. Yeah. You're, are you, is this true? Like, yeah, I think it's true. And then you're like, okay, but can you be absolutely certain that this is true? And the answer quite often is no. Right. Um, so yeah, being okay with where, where I am. And then do you just, do you sit and do you like, need to be alone? Like, do you have like a process of while you're asking yourself these questions or while you're like letting yourself what helps you kind of navigate that? You know, I know it's all in your head. I know it's all mostly there. Yeah. Well, usually I, I only become aware of like feeling depressed or feeling overwhelmed or feeling anxious when I've reacted in some way that doesn't have anything to do with what was going on. Like the other night I was trying to feed my kids healthy food, like just food. Food. It's good food. Yeah. Food That's good. Food that they would like if they would just fucking put it in their mouths and try it. You'll like it. I really so hard and also it's good for you. Um, relatable and I. They just weren't. And I was getting so upset. And as I often do when I start feeling a little overwhelmed, I'll say like, I'm having big feelings right now. I have to go in the other room for a moment. Mm-hmm. I'll be right back. Um, and I uh, went in the other room and then I was like, okay, so I'm overwhelmed. Why am I overwhelmed? Okay, so it's this thought like they should just fucking eat the food I put in front of them. Mm-hmm. Is that true? Yeah. They should fucking eat the food I put in front of them. Are you absolutely certain that's true? No, because maybe they're not hungry or maybe, you know, they're just whatever. Like maybe all of these other things are could also be true. And so, uh, at that point I can be like, okay, well then me feeling this way is okay. I can feel this way, but it's not actually justified, it's not helpful. And so that can help me sort of like get out of that mindset. Um. Okay. But that's, that's like an incident that's not really like a, a practice. Yeah. I think it is helpful. Yeah. And that's okay if there's no, daily, you know, like Yeah. If it's a daily thing or if it's different every time. I was just wondering if it, if, you know, if it helps to Yeah. Do that to close your eyes or, you know, to, I mean, look, uh, like a mindfulness practice, like when, when I get, when I get depressed on like, a sort of larger timeframe, right? It used to be more often like weeks or months at a time. But now I feel like I'm in a place where it's more often like, you know, a day or two where I'm like, oh, this is depression and this is, this sucks. Mm-hmm. Um, and uh, when that happens, when I'm really down,, if I can do anything at all, the thing that I do is, um. I have like mindfulness meditations and just like do a body scan and check with my body and do the thing like, move your body. My, my therapist says uh, if you're depressed and you're not eating well, sleeping well and exercising. That's why. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like that's true 99% of the time. And if you're eating well, sleeping well and exercising and you're still depressed, let's talk about it. Yeah. But the first thing I ask you if you're not Yeah. Like you should know, the first thing I'm gonna ask you is are you doing these three things? Totally. Um, and look, the vast majority of the time, I'm not doing this. I'm not. Yeah. I, I, I, um, yeah., I think we can take that. I think we can take the, the Is it true? Are you sure that it's true? Yeah. And I also think, can you be absolutely sure that it's true? Be absolute sure. Yeah. I like it a lot too. Yeah. And it, and it could, we can leave it at that and see how we use it. Yes. Yeah. Is there anything that you would like to plug or talk about? Yeah, actually, There's this organization called the Shakespeare Forum. I worked with them when I was in New York. Um, and they're a theater company and they have this incredible education program. And, um, when I was there, it was just on Tuesdays. Now it's on Tuesdays and Thursdays. So for, in New York, you should go to this. Um, it's an open workshop. It's, they just call it forum, right? Where it's like, it's a room for two hours, three hours. Uh, people come, uh, if you want to put up some work, you can put up some work and you just like do a monologue. It can't, it can be Shakespeare, it can be not Shakespeare. And then there are facilitators who sort of like facilitate the feedback, but then the room sort of gives feedback and it's this very community-driven, very supportive, very like. Very much not industry minded like no one's. Mm-hmm. Auditioning there, you're just, you're, you're there to work on whatever shit that you need to work on. Um, like that's great. It can be, it can be like super technical, like, okay, where's the line ending here and blah, blah, blah. But more often it's, it's, and like, yes, we are super nerdy and there are definitely people who can like, answer all of those questions, but like, more often it's, you know, I, I feel like there's this block here and I don't, I, I sort of wanna examine this piece or, you know, I've always wanted to play Juliet, but I'm, you know, a man or 70 years old or, you know, whatever it is, like, great. This is the place to do it. Yeah. This is the place to explore. That's great. And, uh, anyway, so that's in New York and a friend of mine, uh, who we were, we both, uh, uh, were at Forum in New York, um, is now out here. And, um, so we're starting up the room and we're starting up a room. We have a little space, uh, and every Tuesday night at seven o'clock. We get together and right now it's still super small. There's like, you know, every night there's like five or six of us, and so whoever wants to work gets to work. Mm-hmm. In New York, it got super big. It's, you know, like 50, 60 people in the room. Wow. It's a great place for if you've, if you're missing Shakespeare, if you're missing or have never experienced a, like a, a community of artists, um, where the goal is just community and art and not business. Mm-hmm. If you just wanna fuck around on a Tuesday night and like put up some text, whether it's Shakespeare or not, come fuck around and find out. And maybe you should be called Fuck around and find out. I invite you Shakespeare Forum West. Fuck around and find out. I love that. Um, yes. Yeah, come hang out. It's a ton of fun. That's cool. And it's free. I love that it's free. Well, it's, we, we, it's donation based. Okay. So it's a$5 recommended donation. Okay, great. If you don't have it, you don't have to give. It's totally fine. Um, the money doesn't go to us. It just goes to paying for the space. And any money that we get in addition to that goes to the education program. So in New York, um, the education program goes into, uh, schools where they've had their, uh, arts funding cut and they give free, arts programming to, schools and. All over New York, uh, that don't have arts programs anymore. That's amazing. I love that so much. I love that so much. That's really great. Yeah. Yay. Thank you so much for coming on. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. What a, a delightful conversation. Delight you say, you say with tears, eyes. I know. Supposed to catch. Dang, I wasn't even looking. I know. I All guys are crying too. Well, until next time, thank you so much. Yeah, thank you so much. Oh my. Stay sane and be well. And be well. You got it, Olivia. Love you. Bye. Bye.