"Everybody is each other's guardian angels" : Head Writer, Human Golden Doodle, Seeker Jeff D'Elia

In an uncharacteristically short intro, Olivia and Ari touch on last episode's spiritual practice, Keara's "finding God in the small moments." There will be a much longer episode released next week about Keara's practice and how it helped both Ari and Olivia in separate career spirals.

The interview is with head writer and story editor Jeff D'Elia. He touches on being guided by his inner child, how he emerged from his 2 year slump, things he's learned about being a Hollywood writer, the spiritual affirmations his mom put on his shower wall, being baptized in the Christian faith as an adult, and more. 

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Beautiful music by Doug Harvey.

Transcript

0:11

Hello, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to SPODA, the Spiritual Practices of the Disgruntled Artist. Were we, Olivia Spirz and Ari Hader interview, a new artist each week to learn how. They are keeping themselves sane and spiritually healthy during this epically challenging time to be an artist. Emphasis on the challenging. Uh, so normally we have a guest on and we take one of their spiritual practices and we apply it to our lives for two weeks, and then we come back on here. And we talk about what we liked, what we didn't, if we'll keep it around, how it affected us, how it changed us. But girls, listen, we just tried to record this intro and it turned into its own episode of like an hour and change because both Olivia and I kind of had like career breakdowns. We went through it, we went through it, we went through it so that we've decided it's gonna be its own episode. We're gonna release it next week. In between guests. Yes. And then that we did talk about our previous guest we had Keara on. Yes. Uh, finding the, finding God and the little things. Um, we're gonna talk about it more. We did talk about it more in this, in, um. The episode will release the episode that we will release. That's just me and Olivia. Yes. Um, basically trying to claw ourselves out of the sewer. It's really fun. You're gonna enjoy it so much. It's super uplifting. Um, uh, to recap, Keara's practice was finding God Yes. In all the moments, and I think it helped us Yes, it did. To kind sum it up even in the dark time. Yes. The darkest time. Even in the darkest time and. Uh, especially for me in moments of already gratitude, it just really heightened to take that moment to be like, wow, life is good. Mm-hmm. Um, and for me to be like finding God in all the moments kind of became like finding what is the reason why this is happening? Mm-hmm. Like, why am I in the sewer? And let's make it, uh, something that helps your life in the future. Yeah. Which I think did help eventually. Yeah. So it was a long and winding road. It was long and winding road. Uh, but I has to say, uh, we love the practice. Yes, it will. I think it will stick around. Definitely. It's gonna stick around with it. Um, it's so easy. I know we said that we're gonna say that again, but mm-hmm. It's just, I, I think it was the one that we actually started. I, we didn't say this. Yeah. We started it like early. Yeah. Like after, after we interviewed. Yeah. Which usually we're kind of already in the midst of other practices. Yeah. Uh, but this one, I don't know. We just immediately Yeah. Did it. So I highly encourage it. Yeah. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be God. You can replace God with whatever. I think that's why I wound up saying, finding reason. You know, it could be like, oh, yeah, yeah. Because God can be like a triggering word. That's true. That's so funny. I find joy. Find, yeah. Find the magic. Find the magic. That's actually find the magic in all the moments. Actually, that's actually how it felt to me. Oh, that's so nice. It, it did feel like magic moments. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, love that. Yeah. Uh, well we have a great episode for you. Yeah. It's actually Keara's husband Love connection. Ooh. We have so many couples. I love it. Or us. Oh, so Keara, I guess that's three. That's a lot of couples. Yep, yep, yep. Um, no, he's great. He's a writer. He's awesome. Oh, you guys love him? He's like very fun. Funny. Yeah, he's literally a golden retriever. And he would form. Yeah. Yeah. So enjoy this episode and have a lot of fun, because next time you hear from us, get ready, get ready. You know, just like. Yeah. Be prepared. Yeah. Just kidding. It's good. No, no, no, no, no. Say the truth. Yeah. Yeah. We gotta, we gotta tell the truth. Otherwise, what are we doing this thing for? Exactly. Um, great. Well here we go. Hello everyone. We got a great guest for you today, girls. Yes, we do. Jeff Delia. He did said it. I said it right. Um, he is a head story writer at writer head writer. Head writer. Yeah. I I combined the two, uh, head writer. Yep. Human. Golden doodle. Yep. Yes. Um, writer. Just also writer. Just writer. Yeah. Overall, amazing human being. Yes. Yeah. And a human stress ball. I'm gonna add that too. Human stress. Full stress all the time. And the head writer on Bossy Bear. Yes. Yes. Head writer on Bossy Bear. Watch it. It's only available on Amazon and Apple to buy. I will, if you wanna buy it. I'll Venmo you$2. Just get outta, I'll Venmo you the$2. Don't one of those episodes specifically the one written by grant also. I'll do, that's what I, oh my God. Um, you better be careful. We got 12,000 listeners, so. Yeah, exactly. I know. I, I immediately, as I said it, I was like, maybe we 14 need to edit this. No, no, no. I'm fine with that. I'm fine with that Venmo request. I would love it. It would maybe get me more work. I care. Yeah. I'll Venmo you. Yeah. You're, I'm paying you to pay me that, that feels like the next,'cause you know, this whole thing happened with actors where you pay to see casting directors. Yes. And then it got all the, the law was like, Nope. Shouldn't be doing that. Which Yeah. Obviously let's not take, but that's the next level, right? Where you, the writer pays people to watch the episodes. Yeah. So that there's more views on it. I have debated on it. I have been like, I'm like, what ethically is this right? Can I do this? Like, maybe I could, maybe I shouldn't. And I've, I'm debating. So this is the, this is the test. This is the test. We'll see what people said. The test. Can I tell you something so embarrassing that I did recently that's in this vein. Okay. So I was on Dexter original sin. I played a cop. I did see, yeah, okay. I watched it. I watched it and then I found out, like afterwards I was like, wait a second, you And I love it.'cause also there's another person who played a newscaster of that. Oh, really? Friends with? So I was like, I know a lot of the people I got. It's amazing. And it's like, what? I loved it. So I was really Okay. Oh yeah, it was a great show. It was a great set to work on. But, okay. So when I did that, people thought that I was Jennifer Carpenter, like the original Deb. So there was this whole thread that I found out about because people were Instagram messaging. Me being like, I thought you were Jennifer Carpenter, the original Deb. And then on Reddit there was a whole thread. Of them being like, is that cop Jennifer Carpenter? Like, oh my god, it's a dead ringer for Jennifer Carpenter. So it was like, no, that's some random actor named to Rie Harder. I was like, I was like, I made it. So anyway about it, I was like, I replied to this Reddit thread. I feel genuinely so embarrassed that I'm telling you this, but I replied, I said, Hey, it's me, it's Air Hater. I'm like, I was that cop. But you know, if you really, like, if you wrote to that show, perhaps they would bring you back. Yeah.'cause there's gonna certainly gonna be cops in other seasons and, and you seem to all think, I'm Jennifer Carpenter, which I'm not. But like, if you liked it and we're all here. Yeah. Like you wanna like help a sister out. You said it first. Not me. You said it first and no one replied. Oh, welcome that. Read it. You know what, I thought people would be excited, like they're writing about this person who's on tv, a small role. Sure. But still on a TV show. You thought I was this other person that you really like. Wouldn't you be psyched to have, that's an, I think, I think that's making it, if you get like a Reddit post or like, you know, you know, I, I've never gotten any of that. Like, and I've been on so many cartoons, like, no. Well, my thing was, I wrote on Amazon, I wrote a review for Bossy Bear and I was like, I'm the head writer and I tried really hard Outing yourself out. Yeah. I immediately, it was like, I'm the head writer. This is a really good show. We tried really hard. There's no other reviews. Nobody has like read it. Nobody. Oh my God. You know, like the, they be like, thumbs up, this is the review help. None of that. None of that. I didn't write to myself go to Reddit and, and, and go to each of your guys' Reddit. Yeah. That's so funny. Well, I'm so glad that we're. We're equally embarrassing we're that's what you have to do. I think that's part of it. That's part of the grind is like you're just like, oh, should I do, like, I've been like, do I upload like all these episodes to YouTube? And then I was like, that's super illegal. I can't do that. But I've been like, maybe what do I got? I nothing. This seems like I made it as well. That cool. Oh my God, I love that. Oh my God. Both these shows are gonna blow up now my Reddit thread's gonna blow up. Bossy Mary. Yeah, that's what I want. That's what we need. Your episode of original state, everyone's gonna be like, you gotta see like, does she actually look like Jack Carpenter? I've never gotten that before in my life. I was so surprised. That is has never been so cruel too. And it's such a fun little role. I like loved like getting to watch you do it. Oh, I was like, thanks and not knowing it was you. And then you like, like were telling me, you're like, yeah, I sure. This podcast with somebody that like she was on D for original. What? I watched that show. It was so, it was fun. I was the guy on Reddit who was writing about you on What, what has been your favorite show that you've worked on? That's really hard. Um, I'm working on one right now. Okay. With a studio in Finland that has been announced, so I can say, but it's, it's not like green lit like Foley. Okay, okay. Because it's like where they're still like trying to get money for it, but it's called TA Poles. Okay. These are really, really cute. And it's about two TA poles that are trying to get to these surface of a pond. And there's like all this fighting along the way and battling Of course. And there's like magical plankton and it's really, really cool. Uh, I got very lucky. They pulled me in and they were like, oh, we would love to just like see your take. Mm-hmm. And I've been working on it with them and a bunch of writers and it's been the most fun creatively for sure. Oh. Because I feel like I'm getting to do. All the things I want to be doing creatively. Yeah. Which is rare.'cause when you're like hired as a writer, it's really hard to get to do the thing you want to do. Right. And that's something that they don't teach you in college when you're like going to like film school mm-hmm. You're like, mm-hmm. Oh, they're, you're like, I'm gonna make my things and everyone's gonna like love my stuff. And by 21 I'm gonna be, I a show runner. That's what I want. Killing it. Like, and then you like realize, you're like, no, everybody's just paying you to be like a typewriter essentially. That they're like, you know, the execs and everybody are gonna want their ideas like put into it. And it's understandable. It is a collaborative and once you learn that you, you get with it and you're good. But this is one of those shows where I feel like everybody's on the same page and that's really, really nice. And not saying that the previous shows haven't been Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of shows that have been on where like we are all on the same page and a day is working out. This one's just the most fun right now. That's great. And maybe it's because I'm in it right now. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But Possy Bear is a very, like, that's also the other one I really loved. But honestly, I'm, I'm really actually happy that you said it's a current show you're working on.'cause there's nothing better than being on. The thing you like the most a hundred percent currently. You know, like that is exci. That's an exciting moment to be. I know. I, I've been very like, fortunate that it is like happening right now.'cause again, you start sweating when you don't have like mm-hmm. I know the one thing in writing that like is the hardest part, and I always am telling these students this that are like, going into it. I'm like, okay, there's one thing when you're like a college kid and you're like, okay, you're getting told by everybody. This is a hard industry. Mm-hmm. And it, you know, like, you're gonna have to suffer for your craft. And you're like, ah, yeah, whatever. What does that even mean? Yeah. I want people to give like specific examples. God, thank you. Because when, when you're like freelancing. Yeah. I'm like, you, you can go two years without like having anything and then you don't have enough like insurance hours. You are like, like. You don't know where your next money like bit of money is gonna come from. Yeah. Yeah. And you debate on like a part-time job or you debate on quitting the industry, or you debate on like another way you can monetize anything that you can do. Yeah. Because that's what a lot of us do now, is like, we're just like, I just need to monetize whatever I have. Mm-hmm. And in reality, I just wanna tell students about that. And it's, I did it for two years, I freaked out and then bossy bear happened. Wow. So it's like, it is that thing where you're like, wait a second, everybody says. It's gonna happen. It's luck and it's timing and you don't believe it until it does happen. So, yeah. Yeah. Also, it's so easy to frame those moments to feel like then you failed. Then that's it. Yeah. Then like the ride is over without realizing that's so everybody has had that experience and continues to like, yeah. It's just not linear at all. Yeah. I'm sure for both of you, like it has happened like multiple times where you're like, what do I do? What's that next step like? I feel like I'm doing everything. I'm trying, I'm hitting my head against the wall, and I put myself in every position to succeed, and it just doesn't feel like it's gonna happen. And then that's the moment. Finally, something just reaches out and like, gives you that thing that you're like, oh my god, life. Yes. Oh wait, I'm ready. Put me on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. At least keeps you going. Yeah. Yeah. Should we do the card or the breaths or something? Oh, yeah. Sorry. I, I listen to this. So yes, I doubted, uh, I would like to do the card, I think. Great. Yes. Yeah.'cause for a while you were teaching yourself tarot, right? I was teaching myself tarot. Yeah. I was inspired by you. Do you wanna do, classic tarot deck or uh, fairy tarot. I think I'm into fairy tarot. You discovered. It's just, it's so good. Um, there's, um, a little thing you recite before. Yeah. If you would like to read the I would love to. Okay. Okay. Okay, wait. This is great. I, I, and I, I'm, I'm not gonna read this in any way other than who I am so good fairy's, clever fairies, bright from garden, wood, and pond. Guide my thoughts, guide my sight. Please help me find the answers on a path that's true. And write. I'm gonna steal this. Oh yeah. And I'm gonna read that to myself. And there's a farewell, but at, at the end you say. It's so magical. I was obsessed, obsessed with fairies. When I was little. I thought I would like, thought fairies lived in in flowers they did and stuff. And I would go flower like ferry hunting. And then I brought my 4-year-old who was then three on a hike in the woods like that Griffith Park, you know, the magically Brook and stuff. And I was like, we're gonna look for fairies. And then she didn't find any fairies. She was very upset because for me it's about the journey. But for her, it was about the results. So that was a parenting lesson that I learned that is, that's a huge parenting lesson for kids is like, they are very much like, I just want this thing, right? Like, now that you said this, this is the goal. If we don't do the goal, we have failed. And you're like, no, no. It's the journey. You know how many episodes of cartoons we write? I know that is always the lesson. It's the journey. That's smart. That's smart. Half the time though, we write lessons that we're like, I don't believe it. But that was the one that I was like, I really should start getting on this. I feel like I'd be a much happier person if I knew that it was the journey. Yeah. Um, okay. Since we're not a room to do the circle, I'm gonna have you cut the deck, love it, and then pull the first one of whichever one of that one. All right. And then flip it. Yep. Tell, tell us what it is. It is upside down. I dunno if you're gonna be doing that. Oh, no, no. It's okay. It's okay. Alright. Three of cups. Three of cups. Okay. Let me, so wait, I really love this. Didn't somebody else get three of cups? Did they? I don't remember. Okay. Okay. Maybe, maybe if I read it, I'll do it. Oh yes. Okay. Three of cups. Celebrate the great things in your life with great friends of your life. Let your hair down, pick up your heels. Okay. And dance just for the joy of it. Your friends help increase your joy and support you in times of sorrow. They are a wonderful blessing. Just remember that while they're an important part of your life, they're not your life. Don't let their opinions affect your choices. Good friends will always celebrate your joy no matter what. This is like exactly where I was gonna go with like this kind of stuff. I'm not going, wait, wait. Really? It's about community and like friendship. It's like, like where I am in the spirituality, like kind of like thing. I'm so excited. See, so this is perfect. That's so funny. Also, I do feel that right now I do feel like I'm in a good place and I have all my friends and like I'm just happy with like where I am in that that zone. That's like my, yeah, that's the one zone I know. I'm like, I'm doing good. In your community. Yeah. Specifically there. 100%. I feel like that's a big feat because I think for a while there's just so much, I don't know if you felt this way, but with actors, I think. There are people that are trying to tear you down and make themselves feel better. Yeah. And I think it took me a long time to, to recognize it and weed it out. Yeah. Sift through the good ones. Yeah. I think it's hard too, I not to like, you know, bad mouth, uh, uh, California or like Hollywood or anything like that, but that is part of the business. It's part of the business is there is always an underlying thing of being like, well, I want this. Yeah. You know, and there's some people who can handle the jealousy of like someone getting that role over you or that job over you. And there's some people who can't. Mm-hmm. And they just will be like, how am I going to. Get better. And there's two paths. There's the good path, there's the, the hard path. Granted, being a human is being a human. Like what you're feeling is natural. Yeah. Feeling that jealousy is so hard. And I talk about this with Keara all the time.'cause like with stunt work, and it's the same thing in like writing. When you see someone succeed mm-hmm. You have to be like, okay, I am jealous. First you have to admit it. You're like, I am jealous. I want that. I feel like I'm working hard enough. I feel like I should be there. Yeah. But you also have to be like, but I'm gonna throw a party for that person too. Yeah. Because I want the same thing to happen to me. I don't want to feel like everybody's got their knives out. Mm-hmm. When I succeed, I wanna feel like everybody's up with me. Yeah. And ready to celebrate too. So that's been like a big thing I've been trying to like do more often. Mm-hmm. I say when I get, because also we found out before this that me and Jeff both have the same thing where we, imdb people. We have the same toxic trait. Yeah. But I try, when I get jealous, I say I wish them 10 times the amount of success that they currently have. And I try to do that every time. I love that. That's the way you should do it. Yeah. I really do think that's the thing. And like again, it's good to be like, that's that you're hungry. Mm-hmm. That you want it. Yeah. You have to look at it like you have to find the positives within it of like, you're hungry, you're ready, you know you can do it. Mm-hmm. And if anything, that's what's pushing you more. So that's good. Like, I don't know if this is just being a cross country runner back in the day and like learning that I had to be okay with the fact that people were faster than me. Yeah. Because that's just naturally what happens. Yeah. Yeah. But I still was like, I'm still gonna race against them and I will still cheer for them at the end. But I will be very angry about it. And then I,'cause in high school too, when you have like all those hormones in you, you are very much like, I hate anybody. I can't imagine you being that way. That's so funny. I, I, no, I was not, I wasn't the best in high school. Like, I was very much like very competitive in my head. Mm-hmm. I think it was.'cause I was just like, I want to be good at something and this is going to be it. Is running, which is the worst thing to be good at, I'll tell you that. Right. Oh, well we talk about how we really hate right now. Absolutely. Do you still run? Yeah, I do. I, I run like five Ks like every now and then, and like I work out now. That's just'cause also when you are freelance, you have all the time. All time. Yeah. And you gotta do something. And also when your wife is a stunt woman, you need to get Oh yeah. We, we didn't clarify though. Jeff is married to there, our previous Yes. Guest, Keara, which is what a unique position we're in right now. I know. How long have you guys been together? For? Over 10 years. Wow. So, yeah. Wow. Wow. Yeah. I, I am so lucky and seeing her journey, this is the first one in like, and every single one, she's dedicated herself fully, don't get me wrong. Mm-hmm. But this is the one that I'm like, oh, this is it. Yeah. I see what I saw with me with writing when I was younger. Yeah. Of being like, you can't, you can't not go for it. Yeah. Yeah. And it would be selfish and rude of me to, as a partner ever say, you can't do something that you have that calling for. And that was the reason I think I was always like enamored by her was I was like, oh, you're just like so good at like pushing yourself towards things and doing what, like would normally make me feel super uncomfortable. It's very opposite of like what my family was. And that's what I love about it. So, yeah. Did you feel that rigid, even when you were a writer or the, like, how was it to be an artist and feel rigid in that way? You know what? It's funny'cause I think the art is where I get to, like, I let it all out and, but the funny thing is, is like, I think when I was in college, I read something from college and I was like, this kid got it. Like, he's funny. Like he was really good and like meaning you Yeah. Me. Like I was like, you like, yeah. Jeff past Jeff really made some funny stuff and there was no care in the world. And even though there's flaws, I see what I love about it. And I don't think I can get to that point sometimes, like today where I feel like the industry makes you feel like something and you're like, okay, I have to make something that's packageable marketable. It needs to have success. So you kind of get lost in that. But for me, like now I've done this thing and I feel like the way I connect with. Like how to be creative is, I wrote a script after a show where I, it everything went wrong. Okay. Everything went wrong for me. That you were in? Yeah, I was on. Okay. Everything went wrong for me personally. Okay. I was like You were writing on it. Okay. I was writing on it. I was staffed. It was like my first staff gig. Mm-hmm. I was terrified. Yeah. Every day. Yeah. And every premise I was like sending in. None of'em were getting by. Oh. Because it was just like, and you start questioning yourself. Yeah. You start thinking, especially if it's your, you said it was your first staff? Yeah. This was like my first one and I was like, I can't get anything through. I don't feel like I'm getting it. Mm-hmm. The show should be simple in my head. I can see it. I know what it needs to be. And there was a couple reasons outside of my control too, where things weren't working, like it wasn't fully on me. But in the end, they didn't re-up my contract. And ag was like, I'm a failure. Yeah. But they loved me. Like they still liked me as a person. Like they were like, we're keeping you on for a month. You're gonna sit next to your replacement, which was like hilarious. I became best friends with her. I was actually awesome. And then at the end, she had no idea that I was not leaving for another day. She's like, you might've been so mean to me. And I was like, what? What would that have accomplished? Anyway, but I learned from that like just to like, it was okay to fail and it was like I, I was trying to create a voice that wasn't mine and trying to do it nonstop. That after that I wrote a script that I was like, I'm gonna write without thinking about one note, one thing that is like, I want go back to what I was. Yeah. And I wrote the script. It's not that great. I, but it's, for me, I read it like once a month. You do you I read it once a month. And that's what New practices. Yep. No, no. If you do have that, like that old thing, I highly recommend. Writing something that you can go back to and like, and that's in any like, form of just writing something that you can read and remind yourself, this is what I'm trying to do. Yeah.'cause we get lost in it. We get lost in the sauce of this life. And like, it's very easy to, but for me it's reading the script and like, this is funny, this is, while it's about like a girl and a teddy bear and they're like mercenaries in like a, a futuristic city of like Miami. Oh my God, love. It's very weird. I love it. Makes no sense, but it makes me laugh and it makes me go, this is what I want to do. So it's like a touchstone for you of like, this is who you are. Yep. I always go back and I read it anytime I ever have doubt, anytime I'm ever like worried I've been in the business long enough that I don't have as much doubt as I used to. Yeah. But I definitely still have those moments. And then I'll go back and I'll like read that, or now I watch like an episode of Bossy Bear too, and I'm like, look, you can do it. You did that right? You did it. We did it. You made it through that. That was, we wrote 90 episodes in a year and a half. I was like, we could do it. We could do it. So. It's interesting. This has come up, well, two things. One is that, if we were to relate this to, to us, and you were to say, watch a video of this show that you're in, would you feel like, yes, that's me, not about the show in particular. Like, you know what I mean? Or would you feel like, how can I ever do that again? Because I think for me, I was thinking, oh, I could watch an old self tape or something if I was to, but I think I wonder if part of me would be like, yeah, I had some sort of magic then. Well, in a down place I would think I had magic then. Mm-hmm. And will I ever get it back? Oh, so you're saying like if you, if you were in a downplay, so you used it, used this exercise, but in the in self tape form uhhuh and looked at old self tape that you would be like, oh, there's the magic. You know what I mean? When you said it, I was like, at first I was like, oh no, but I'm like, maybe if I, if I wasn't a down place, but I would, I think, I think maybe if it was something that. You, it was like one of your characters. Or if it was an improv character, you know, if it was like something that it had nothing to do with. Yeah, it was like, and I think it would have to be that special piece, right? Yeah. I think it couldn't be any self tape. It couldn't be any piece of writing. It had to be like one that does remind you of like, no, that person is still there. Yeah, but I know what you mean. That would be, I mean, treat for you guys as like actors. Like what? Yeah. Like if it is the self tape, is it like watching like a play from childhood even? Like, you know, you never know that. Like it could just be like. When I was a kid, I, I, I acted, I was not good. I think I was just the only boy that was like, willing to act at my day camp. So they just kept putting me in roles. But I watched like videos of that sometimes and I laugh at that kid. Yeah. But like, that kid has so much energy and is so afraid not to fail. How do I ever get to that moment? And I don't know if there's something for you guys, like in the beginning of your acting, was there like a, I I'm sure though you guys were like petrified or like Yeah. Scared that you guys are really good at it. So that kid was afraid to fail or that kid was not afraid. Was not afraid to fail. The kid was not afraid to fail. Yeah.'cause he didn't, he didn't know what failure like was yet. Right. Right. I think it's finding that self tape that you're like, oh, I was so confident. I was, you know, I, I put out and I think we'd recognize it and I think in a way you can ask. You know, we talked about this, you know, like asking your spear guide, your whatever. Yeah. Ask, ask from your past self. Right, right. Yeah. We were watching Welcome to Wrexham, which I don't know if you guys Yeah. You watch that love. So, okay. So like that, that speech that Rob gives at the end of like, he gives this great speech where he is like, imagine yourself playing soccer as a 10-year-old and like we forget that it's supposed to be fun. Mm-hmm. And, and play like that and then they win and you're just like, because that is it. Yeah. Like, it's just so easy to forget. I love that you do that, that like touchstone thing. You have to, I think it's so important to go back into being, and this is like where I feel like. To go into spirituality. Like, my thing is, is like when you're a kid, you are not thinking about anything. You are just always go, go, go. And you, you feel unstoppable. And then there's a point in our lives where that stops. Yeah. And it's so hard to look back on that and be like, what was the moment that did that? Or How many moments is that? And again, with writing, I think the reason I love writing so much is'cause I'm always like, okay, yes, I can write this like for, you know, this business or this studio or this thing. But if I'm writing for myself, I'm always like, what does 10-year-old Jeff want? And now I've also, my, my brother has twins and I love them to death. Aw. Shout out to Dina. Know. How old are they? Uh, they're, oh my gosh, they're two. They're two. They're two. They're gonna be three. I've just thinking about, because I'm gonna go back for their birthday and I was like, wait. Wait, what day do, it's just crazy how fast they're growing. Yeah. Crazy. They're almost three. That's wild. They're so cute. I love them so much. But I think about them now. Like what are they watching? And now I really have a little kid's perspective that is at least young.'cause I write on preschool shows too. Yeah, I was gonna ask how that Yeah. But I always am trying to write for like 10-year-old Jeff. And like he, I remember sitting in class not listening to anything a teacher was saying always getting like low listening scores on any like report card back when that was the thing that was like, oh yeah. And I was like just coming up with ideas in my head that were just like, I think with like basically Hunger Games in like a science classroom in like third grade. It was not nearly as good as what it is. Like I'm not saying I like came up with that idea or anything, but I was like thinking about that. Yeah. And I had something like that and I was like, this is gonna be the coolest thing. And I look back at that. I'm like that kid. I if I did that, I was like, okay, there's so many issues. Okay. First, no. Yeah. First. No. Um, okay, so wait, I have, I have kind of a left side question. How do you ever, like, you're sitting in a room, do you go into the room for writer or It's all over Zoom. Okay. Um, the bossy Bear was over Zoom. It. It's been more like you get to be in a room as of right now.'cause I'm working with the people in Finland, right? Yeah. It is over Zoom and I, I actually like it better on Zoom to be honest. Honest. Really? Yeah.'cause I can turn the camera off and then I could cry if I want. Is it ever so insane to be like, we're talking about tadpoles? Like is there ever like, like, is like a bunch of grown people debating the fights of tadpoles? Is that, is that like that's what you want though? See, that's the dream and that's what I, I think. I am gonna toot my own horn'cause I'm trying to be more confident. Heck this. Um, I, the reason I think I'm a good story editor, um,'cause like as a story editor and a head writer, your goal is you're in charge of the writers. You have them come in with their ideas mm-hmm. And you try to make them flourish. You're also their therapist. You talk them through all the notes that they get and you get tell'em like, it's okay. You pat'em on the back. Yeah. And you go, don't worry. Like keep on, keep on moving. It's not you, it's everything against us. Yeah. Like that's how it goes. Yeah. For me, like as a story editor, I think the reason I work very well is'cause I try to make sure that everybody remembers that when they're in that room. A, you've already made it past the hard part. Yeah. Hardest part is getting your foot in the door. So don't worry about what's the move that's gonna make your foot step right back out. Like, everyone's always afraid they're gonna get kicked out.'cause someone else can always come right in. You can't think that way. A room should be supportive, caring, and it should be all about like. The worst idea is still gonna be somehow the best idea. I have pitched so many bad ideas and I think because when I go into a room, if I go to like a story summit and everybody's like, okay, who's the first one to pitch? I'm the first one to pitch. And I go with the idea that I know is the wildest and could fail the biggest, because I want then everybody in that room to feel like they can say whatever they wanna say. Oh, I love that. I love that. And that's how you have to do it. And so as a leader in like writing, it's like I'm trying to make sure that all the noise that you have in your head as an artist that's making you doubt mm-hmm. Is not there. And reminding you, yes, a fart joke will make a kid laugh. You can just put that in at any point. It's that easy. We like, we hate that it's that easy, but honestly it's that easy. So if that's the job, then like, stop worrying so much. Yeah. You know, don't overthink what that TA pole's gotta say to the other TA pole to teach you the lesson that, you know, life's a journey, you know? Oh, I love that. Wow. Um, guess. Um, okay. I have so many things, but go ahead. I'm looking at my notebook. I was also holding back my, my impulse to just make a bunch of farting noises. After you said that. I would've, at the end, I'll surpris you. Do you feel, here's a question for you guys, for both of you as actors, do you feel like when you are, you know, getting in the zone and you are like doing a trial,'cause like, I can't, I don't know how you guys do the auditions, like that is a scary thing. It's the same thing of like sending in a script. Mm-hmm. But like, how do you, what is your way of getting the noise out and getting yourself into, okay, this is fun. Like, do you have a method to it? Because I would love to know,'cause I like getting to hear other people's methods. Yeah. Yeah. I have a new method because of this thing with this. Yeah. So what I did this time around with this audition was. I, I meditated before, I mean, first of all, it was a lot of dialogue and I, as I was telling you, like I, my history with big auditions is that I get the sides and I'm immediately nervous about it. Mm-hmm. And then it makes it hard to memorize. And I realized like I can't be nervous through the whole process and then expect myself to go into that room and be not nervous. Like your body, that's what we were talking about before. Yeah. Your body's now reacting to that material. Yeah. So now every time you read or say that material, if you begin it in a place of like, angst and want and nerves, like your body subconscious, remember that subc, like your body's just gonna remember that. So that's something I learned like recently with this. And I, I meditated before I had this whole like, meditation practice where I go down to the beach, it's like in my mind Oh nice. My like subconscious beach. And like, I prayed to my spirit guys to just like be at my back, like two on each shoulder blade, like wings and just take the nerves and that like, that was just, and that, that was my goal for this audition was just to take the nerves.'cause I really feel like what you're saying, like. If somebody comes in and they're just not nervous, you're already 95% above what everybody else. It's so true. You're miles ahead. It's miles ahead. Yeah. And I could tell just the way she responded to me, we started talking about the character's backstory and she was super positive and having me do all the scenes and gave me, because now it's, now we're on an equal footing. And when you're nervous, it makes them feel nervous and, and people don't want you to be nervous. It just, and then that's what they remember. Yeah. That's like what they remember the thing. But I didn't, what I didn't think about before you said it was how being in a writer's room feels like constantly auditioning in some way, constantly. Every day. I think that's the problem that writers have is like every day you have to come in with the funniest joke. Yeah, I know Grant was on this and he talked about like, you have to come in in the morning and you have to be awake and you have to like, yeah. That's not a mindset that you should have. Like in my eyes, I'm like, you should just be able to come into the room. And again, we are doing what kids do is make up stuff on a playground. Like right, we are going to play pretend for a couple hours. Why are we overcomplicating this? Why are we sitting here and being like, where's lunch? Like it's not that you're supposed to be thinking like just fun flow of thought. Mm-hmm. The best ideas don't come from forcing it. I don't think that's the way to go. I think it is like, if you're having fun, like every time I've ever like been stuck on something like a script, sometimes I, and some, this is gonna be crazy and some people are gonna hate that. I'm gonna say this, but I take like a month off from my script. I don't look at it for a month'cause I'm getting angry with it. I'm getting like, oh, why am I not doing this right? And then I come back a month later and I read it and I go. Oh, past Jeff had good ideas. I like this because I'm much calmer. I'm not like putting so much on it, and so that's why I think writers' rooms sometimes can feel that way when you're like, mm-hmm. I have to nail this. I have to. Right.'cause everybody wants this job. Right? Isn't that the thing? Yeah. And it's like, yeah, but you're already passed that you made it. Mm-hmm. So have fun so that, so that it works. Yeah. And want you the same thing. Right. Like if it is fun, it works. It feels like it has to be born from a sense of fun versus a sense of like pushing and being like, what are these tag holes say? Yeah. That's why I'm not a live action. Look, I, that's the thing, like I watch like every season of Dexter Uhhuh and I probably maybe could write an episode, but it would be very cutesy. Like it would not be like, it would not work. And like that's been, I feel like if I was in a line of action room, I'd immediately like fold. I'd be like, you guys are doing better ideas. Like, I dunno, maybe there are zero tad pools in this show are TAs. You can't solve Dexter with a fart. You can't solve it with a well time fart. You can't just be like, okay. And in this moment, did you, so when did you know that it was like kids shows was what, what you wanted? Oh yeah. Uh, ooh, that's such a good question. Um, when I was younger, uh, my dad was actually super supportive and he was like, you should do this class called TV broadcasting in, in high school, which was like film. Mm-hmm. Because I couldn't draw. And so I started doing that and I fell in love with it. And I did it with like my friends and we made like weird, you know, movies that you've made. Yes. Mm-hmm. And then, uh, I, my dad kept pushing me. He saw I had that passion and so he let me go to film camp and we're at film camp. I made a movie, uh, called Dryer Consequences. And it was about a guy and uh, he has a crush on this girl, and she gets sucked into a, uh, dryer. And then he has to fight a giant sock king, which was a camp counselor in a sock puppet, uh, suit. Like I put, it was ba it was basically a safety bag upside down. Okay. It just made a move like this. Oh my gosh. And it's a really dumb movie. Like it's very dumb. I mouth, I wanna see this so bad, I wanna see dryer cosplay. And everyone loved that one. Yes. And I was like, if I could have animated. This? Yeah. This would've been the thing. Yes. Okay. And then I remember on my next film, I was like, I'm gonna make an edgy one.'cause like, I feel like, guess what's gonna get me into a college? And that was where I learned the lesson. You don't, don't try to fit yourself into a hole you, that doesn't work for you. Because I made a whole story about like a guy getting a girl pregnant, and it was like very different. And I was like, and everyone was like, Ooh, I don't like that one. And I was like, I don't like that one. I activated it too. And I was like, I hate this. Like, it was really bad. So I learned a lot from that. And after that, when I was in college, um, my friend had an internship at Nickelodeon. Mm-hmm. And he was like, Hey, they're looking for resumes. Would you want me to put yours forward? And I was like, I can't draw, so there's no way I can do that. Right. And they, they're like, no, there's other positions. And you're like, what? Yeah. And so then that was when I was like, this is it. Okay, I'm going into kids' animation if I get, you know, this internship. And I did. Mm-hmm. And it was since then, just been working in it, so. Wow. So then when you got your first staffing job on the job that. Didn't wind up going your way. Mm-hmm. Was that like, what was that, that phone call? Like, because I feel like it's a very big accomplishment. I feel like I know a lot of writers who have not, have never been staffed. I was losing it. Yeah. Yeah. I was celebrating. I was like,'cause I didn't expect it. I really didn't expect it. Like I liked the show a lot. I genuinely was like, this is a really cute show. Mm-hmm. Where it started, it was such a good place and I felt like it was such good lessons for kids. Mm-hmm. And again, I was also like at the point where I was like, I'm the most wide eye. Yeah. And then, yeah, it just didn't, when it didn't work out, it hurt that much more because I was like, I really cared about this, but I'm so thankful for that failure. Yeah. You learn so much from failure and like, you just have to be big about it and just swallow your pride and be like, that's not the last job. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. A hundred percent. And that's like, I killed someone there. Like then like, yeah. Then it's probably the last job. You know? You never know. It's Hollywood. Yeah. I also wonder if it makes it like for your writers that you have, like to me, that story that you told. It gave me some sense of peace knowing that along the way you knew it wasn't working. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? You weren't just like, oh, yeah. Blindsided by the thinking that everything was going amazing and all of a sudden it wasn't. Like, if it sounds like you kind of knew, okay, this isn't, I knew quite a fit. Like it just, I'm trying to make it, but it's not quite a fit. I wonder if it helps your writers to be like, you would know, like if it wasn't working, they would feel something. That's the s the thing. You have to talk them through that and you have to be like, it's okay. I especially,'cause like most writers' rooms are not really writers' rooms anymore. It's like freelance. I'm like, you can't, it's Do you know how many things are against you? Yeah. To hit the mark of the show. Right. Depending on what season we're all in. Right, right. I'm like, don't get in your own head. Write the thing that's most fun for you and my job is to make you make sure that they know that you are doing a good job. Mm-hmm. Like if there's ever a time where an exec is like, well, I didn't like that script from that person, nine times outta 10 is something I added or changed thinking that would be good for the network. Mm-hmm. Or I led them in the wrong way, so I make sure that they know I'm like. You're good. And even if someone doesn't match the voice of the show, but they're on it and they do one episode, I'm always give'em two. Because there's sometimes where they turn around on that second one. Wow. And you're like, that's amazing. Yeah. Like, it really is. And there's certain shows that fit certain people. And I think once I learned that too. Yeah. I was like, sometimes I'm not gonna be the fit and I shouldn't force it. Mm-hmm. But you're also like, I need money. Right, right. Money's great. I do like money. But you're like, once you, if you can eliminate that part from your head and you just do what's best for your mental health, that's, that's the key.'cause otherwise you're gonna self-destruct. Yeah. In your, your dream job. And that's the worst thing. So, yeah. Yeah. To like leave it with regrets. I read an interesting theory. Recently, I'm reading this book called Think Again. New book. I know, I, I knew it was gonna be new for the next like six months. I mean, I can read like five pages a night. I have two little kids. Think again. It's called Think Again. Okay. And it's about, one of the theories that is posited here is that there is a, this idea of first thought is best thought. Yep. That they have refuted now and said, they did a whole bunch of studies about how like if you have the thought to change your answer, you are more likely to be right if you change your answer really. And it's really about rethinking things. They have this really interesting story about how these firefighters were trying to fight this fire and it wasn't working. The fire was getting out of control and the chief lit ma, like not knowing that this is actually a thing. He lit matches and lit like a, a second fire and then just covered himself in water and laid down because he thought that the fires would. Be drawn to each other and not burn him. And it worked. But there were a lot of other firefighters who died in that fire because they were like, I can't, and some of them didn't even drop their packs. They were saying, because they were like conditioned to be like, I'm a firefighter. I keep my my gear on at all times. And that's like their blanket. So a lot of them died, unfortunately, but he didn't because he like was able to change his thinking. So the whole book is like, it is beneficial to change, like change, keep changing your thinking, keep changing your thinking if you have the impulse to change. So what is that? Does that, like, when you're writing things, does that, do you always go first thought, best thought? Do you rethink things Where I love this by the way, like to break your reflex? Yeah. Break something that has been so ingrained in you. Especially when I was like a firefighter. Um, I, I would say for me, I typically, I think, I think first thought can be the funniest because it's most unexpected. Mm-hmm. But it doesn't mean it doesn't need work. It does need work. Like you should look at it again. Yeah. Don't cure. Hates this. I go back to the intro of my scripts Pro. Every time I get stuck, Uhhuh, I'm, I don't wanna do this next scene, I just keep rewriting the intro. So my intros are like so tight. And if you really do read my scripts by the 15th page, which is the last page, Uhhuh, uh, they're, they're probably garbage. Like it is probably, they're like, where did that, what happened to him? Like, it feels like he put a lot less effort into this section and it's because I was not procrastinating as much as I got there. And by that point I was like, ah, I'm tired. I always look at it as you, you start with a really funny, like first answer and then you can put it in there. Mm-hmm. I think as long as you leave it as a placeholder in writing, it's okay. Mm-hmm. And then you can come back.'cause like we have so many points in the writing process of you do a premise, you do an outline, you do a first draft, a second draft, then a record draft. The key I break it down to is like premise and outline. You just need a good story. Yeah. That's all you need. Make sure the story works from point A to point B. You just wanna make sure that we understand what the character's journey is. Mm-hmm. The rest is the jokes. And there's rooms that do this thing and I love it where like a person's script and it, it's scary when it's your script, but you give the script to every writer and then they get a day to like go through it and then put their own jokes in. And then you sit there and you all read it together and you start pitching jokes in it. And sometimes. That writer loses their jokes and that's okay. Right. But the best joke is getting in. Yeah. And that's what matters. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's good to see it and make sure that you're taking it from different perspectives. So overall first answer is best, but yes, you, you do need to like still work on it. Yeah. And just see like maybe it'll inspire another great thing too. It doesn't mean that two things can't be great. Both jokes could work. Mm-hmm. But it is hard sometimes. It is hard though. Yeah. It's like, let go of your baby. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Also,'cause you guys work on it for so long, you know, like audition. I mean, even when you're filming it's like, it's like a couple days and that's it. You have to be like, okay, that, well I gave them 16 different options and they're gonna choose what they're gonna choose and like. Hopefully the editor's nice to me, which like indexer, they were very nice to me, but you never know. You just never know. Yeah. They're like, should I tell my family about this? Or is it my shoulder? But like there's no, yeah, that's gotta be so terrifying'cause it is in someone else's hands. Yeah. You know, that's scary to be, I couldn't like,'cause like as a story editor, I get to be the one who's like, ah, it's, but I hate that. I do hate that.'cause I don't think I'm the funniest person. Like I don't think that I will know what the best joke is. And I, but that also think is what makes me better.'cause then I do defer to stuff. Yes. I was about to say, I think that you are, like, you, I think you should brag about being a great story editor.'cause there's a couple things I'm very curious to see if you relate to this or if you would say that you are a highly intuitive person. Um, and not that, that you don't have an ego. Because everyone has ego. Everyone has ego. Everyone has ego. But this relationship with the ego and, and understanding of when to let go and'cause a lot of things that I've noticed you talk about, which is so interesting in hearing you talk about your, you know, how you do this is your ability to walk away from it. Like you said, you know, going away from it for a couple months or like, even you going back to the beginning of something, it's like you are able to like intuitively know when it's time to, you're no longer in the state of play. You're no longer in where you wanna be. Mm-hmm. Where you get the joy, where you get all that and so you like depart from it. Yeah. And it's like, feels like I'm so interested in that idea. How, how, how did that come up? Yeah. And like, yeah. And then, yeah. Do you consider yourself an intuitive person? And like, I do. Do you, and then when that comes up, is it like, who do you think that's calling from? I, I think that for me, so like to go, go into spiritual mm-hmm. Like a little bit. Mm-hmm. So when. I was younger, I grew up non-denominational. Okay. But my mom was very much like, she just wanted me to be a really positive kid. Mm-hmm. So she used to do this thing where she would laminate, um, cards with positive affirmations and put it in my shower. Oh my God. I love that. And so it was like, only good lies ahead. You know, everything happens for a reason, like all of that. So I definitely had that completely ingrained by him. Yeah. Because I did read it every day at the shower, even if I was like, nail the good lesson, whatever. Yeah. Being a high schooler, you know, like, and everything's like, you know, super dramatic. Yeah. But it's so helpful. And I had a really, my mom was so positive and then my dad had like, work ethic. Like, that was their, their relationship of like, my dad was like, you work and you, you, like, you gotta just keep doing what you're doing. It doesn't matter. Like if they're asking for more, you just do it. So I, which sometimes is a negative of like, you wanna be getting what you, you're worth, but at the same time, when you do a little extra, it does. It does work out. So like, there's that like weird. Mm-hmm. Anyway, so from there, they never pushed religion on me. They weren't like,'cause my mom, she was also in Catholic school and she had like the worst time. So she was like, I don't want to put that on anybody. Mm. Um, though I did wish I was like, I wanna know more. I had like a little angel bear, teddy bear that I hung onto all the time. Mm-hmm. And I would sleep with, and it was like my best friend, like if I shower and I'd put him in like a little area. I was like, you're showering. Did you give him little affirmations on his wall? Of course. Yeah. But it's all bear related. I have a bear, but I, I had huge, you get honey, I promise. I had huge obsession obsessions with, um, guardian angels. I totally believed in them. Ooh, okay. And I still do, I still believe that there's something, God.'cause there's no way I'm driving and not like getting in an accident without an angel. Like being like, you gotta slow down and you gotta stop. Um. But, uh, so realistically after all that, like my mom and my dad and growing up and like doing that, I stayed within like, you know, I read a bunch of different, like, types of religions and nothing ever like came to me. I, if anything I had like stonery thoughts about like, you know, life and afterlife and stuff. It took until I met Keara. And Keara was, uh, or still is Christian. Mm-hmm. Um, and she was going to church when I first met her. And at first I was like, at that point I was like, I don't know. Mm-hmm. Like, people going to church, what does that mean? Like, what is her level of Christianity? Yeah. Are we like, are we like we're gonna help people or is this like, we're, you know, like, is this what we think? Like the maga heads kind of thing or anything along those lines. I went and I loved it. I loved being at that. I loved the sense of community and I felt something and I hit it the right moment. Again, it was like an intuitive thing of being in the right moment and Keara like. So amazing. Every night when we came back from church, we would go on a walk for like an hour. Mm-hmm. And she would let me ask her every question Yeah. I ever had about the religion and stuff like that. So I kind of started like getting into that and we would go out with like friends from church like on like Wednesdays and we'd like all talk and go through like therapy stuff. And it wasn't just about using like the Bible, it was like very much like just about like being there for another human. Yeah. And that was like a huge thing for me is like be there for other humans. Yeah. If your religion like guides you towards being kind towards other people, I have no problem with you. Yeah. Like, and what you're following, I think that's ultimately the end of the day. It's like being kind to others. Yeah. Um, and so I loved it and I had a lot of fun. And then we had a little bit of a falling out, like around COVID with like the churches because it was like the third church in a row that the pastor was very much like they wanted more money. Yeah. And they wanna like, you know, and so that, that kind of like, hurt us and it put a bad taste in our mouth. And since then we haven't really like gone to church, but we are very like, spiritual and still like, you know, we'll do prayer, you know, every now and then. Like, I'll still do that, like when I'm driving or something like that. Mm-hmm. Again,'cause I need it when I'm driving. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. And it's very much like,'cause you know, at first you start, it's always the same thing when you start with prayer. I feel like everyone's always only praying when they need help. Mm-hmm. Instead of praying when they need to, like mm-hmm. Just be like, Hey, I am thankful for all this stuff I have. Yeah. Yeah. Or, uh, praying for like, just, just to be like, Hey God, this is like what I did today. Yeah. Like, you know, universe. Universe. So I feel like. From there. Around the time when I was really starting to pick up on like, why am I so stressed out about all this? Mm-hmm. Why am I so worried about nailing this? Why am I like trying so hard to this? As in religion or spirituality or just spirituality? Writing. All of it. All of it. All of my life. Okay. All of it. Because I felt like, I was like, and this was around the time when the show was ending, I was like totally against therapy. But I was like, church will be good enough for me. Started going to therapy. That was like the game changer. Yeah. I had a whole thing against taking like, uh, like I, I'm on Zoloft. Like, I was afraid of taking that'cause that to my parents, that's like throwing in the, the waving the white flag You're giving up. Yeah. And now I do it. And now I know what life's like, not stressed out or a hypochondriac or stuff like that. So. Through work and that guidance, everything is pointing me in that direction. So ultimately, to answer your question, like the intuitiveness only came from being open to being like, I don't know everything. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I can't know everything. I have ego for sure, like I do believe that sometimes I'm like, I have, I know what's right and I know what's wrong in my head. But I also know that like I, the best way to live life is to just kind of live it. And so for me, like that's why talking about earlier like community has like been my big thing and I've realized that for every single part of my life, the intuition comes from community. Yeah. Yeah. Sending a script to Grant and my other friend Josh, and having them read it and then like getting that like positive affirmation back, but also then getting to do that for them. It's the same thing of like with religion, if I don't feel strong in it towards Christianity as I did back then and now I'm feeling just like, you know, I just feel like there's gotta be something. Mm-hmm. There's definitely gotta be something. I now am like, I gotta just trust the universe. Yeah. You're doing this like rethink, rethink, rethink thing that I'm talking about. And this like, think again. Oh, yeah. Where you're questioning your every day. Yeah, it is. And now you say it in that in spirituality. A hundred percent. Yeah. Because there's no, there's no way we're supposed to know the answer. And I think that's kind of the fun of it. And I feel like I'm supposed to have fun with it. Like, again, it's like, it's, it's like a childish view, but I'm like, isn't that kind of, I was so afraid of dying for so long. Yeah.'cause I was like, I don't want it. I, I used to climb into my mom's bed every night and be like, I'm afraid to die. Like it just would like exist. Existential would it even in sounds? Yeah. Wow. I must've, I don't know, for, I had a past life where I died pretty violently. Maybe. Maybe or something. Yeah. Or I like to think I was a dog in a past life. But anyway, I was really happy about it. But, uh, yeah, there's like that thing. It's just you get so, uh. I, I, I would get so scared of it. And now as I've gotten older, I'm starting to understand, I'm like, the mystery of it is kind of the fun of it. Mm-hmm. And we don't need to know the answers, but we can feel something is there. Right. Like, we gotta be feeling something there. So, because, but you converted to Christianity, right? I did, yeah. I got baptized. What, what denomination? Mm. I like, I actually don't know technically. Like when I just did it, because I was still in the beginning Yeah. And I got baptized.'cause I just felt the calling of like, going towards it. Okay. And so I don't technically actually like know at the time what I was doing. I was actually very like, nervous. How did your parents feel about that? They hated it. Really? Yeah. My mom hated it. Really? Yeah. They didn't like it. They were like, they just didn't see the point in it. And my mom doesn't believe that. Like, for her, it wasn't like, she was like, I just don't think that Jesus is the guy. Like, she was like, you know? Wow. She really was like, she's like, I just don't believe he was the, the person for it. And, and. So like again, she was spiritual. She went and studied Buddhism, like she know like that. And so again, that's why I actually lean towards that more now than I did when I like, again, it's been so hard'cause I've seen so many, I've had so many bad things with churches since I've been baptized that I've been like, am I like, is this the right thing again? And that's why I keep being like. I can't com. It's hard. It's like trying to commit to a relationship. Am I committing to the right thing? I don't know anymore. Yeah, so it's tough. This is like why I was like, I'm excited to get on this'cause I don't know. Yeah, I don't. Yeah, is Well, yeah.'cause it's hard because we're kind of saying like, you don't need a box while talking about what box you're in. What a box. Yeah. Also, in some ways, like I think you kind of need to know your box in order to like break out your box. Yeah. Yeah. Inbox a lot. Boxes box. It could be a flexible box. That's my coffee. That's why I had that reaction. I was so nervous too. That's God. That's God's guardian angel. That was guardian angel watching they, okay. Oh yes. Okay. Can we talk about the guardian angels? Yeah. Yeah. Do you, do you think that there's like a specific person that's a guardian angel in your life? Or you just have like a nondescript guardian angel? I. I like to think that it's probably a relative. Okay. But I'm also like, but am I taking up all their time? Like I was like, like my grandfather's probably like, oh, it's somebody else. It's probably with like my mom. He wouldn't be there with me. But I'm also like, but maybe they could be everywhere. All at what? Yeah. Like, you know. No. So I never really like narrowed it down. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think for me as a kid, I always pictured it was like my grandfather. Like, you know, someone like that. But no, I don't know.'cause whoever it is is copy be a goofy one. Like it's definitely, it's definitely gotta be like a guardian angel that I'm like, he's probably, it's, this is his first like life he's taken care of or something like that. Like I feel like that's, he's new at it. He's, he's, he's trying his best. That's, and he know I'm trying my best. He's a golden doodle. Exactly. I feel like that's gotta be it, you know? Yeah.'cause I'm lured to that. That's why I'm with Keara. Keara is also a puppy. Yeah. She really is. And that's. The energy I go towards. So personally, I think, I don't know what you guys believe, but do you believe it's like a person or, yeah, so I feel I, that I have four spirit guides. That's basic. Yeah. So, so would there reason, but you say spirit guides, non guardian angels, I say spirit guides. Do you think that they're on an interchangeable? I think to me. Okay. I can say that. Okay. Okay. But, but yeah, I, I, because my grandma isn't one of mine, I try, so the way that I have kind of found out who they are is like. One, like my most recent one was this woman, her name's Marguerite, and she used to work at the Geffen Playhouse where I used to work there. My husband works there now. He's the lead carpenter. And she was like the front desk woman, and she was so sassy, like in her eighties, just the sassiest, funniest, most kind of ridiculous woman, but like, but like loved her job as the receptionist of the Gavin. I, I was like very serious about it. Like Philip would pull pranks on her all the time. My gosh. And, but when she died, I felt like she wasn't really gone. It just felt like, yes, she's, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. But, but then when I've tried to sort of talk or just. I, I can't like, communicate makes me sound like I'm trying to be a psychic, but when I've sort of been trying, I guess trying to talk to like my grandma, there's been a response, but not in the way that I feel the energy from. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. So my friend, I always make say this because I think it's funny, my friend Kate who was on here was like, maybe she's just tired. Like she doesn't wanna Yeah. Yeah. So said he is busy. He's like, you know, so I think that's how I've, you know, so that's such a good way of putting it. I see. That's the thing because you're like, you're like, how, how human are they in a way? Right? What is their, like, are they all like. All being and they're just like floating around and just like, everything's going great. Or is it like, you know, they have to put in the work too. They're running to like catch up with you or they're like working on like too many people too, who knows? I don't think it's hard for them either. I mean, my opinion is that I don't think it's, I think it's enjoyable for them. No, I assume that's the case. I'm just saying like, I can't, this is the cartoon brain. The cartoon brain goes into like what is it like for them? Like what is a day of the life immediately? I'm like turning it into like a car, a cartoon character head. Honestly, a cartoon about Guardian, oh my gosh. Would be really fun. Like in spirit guides, a cartoon for adults about like all of this spiritual stuff. I love that. That you also feel that the person is still like that they're still with you. Yeah, because that really is the answer. Like, and that's the thing again with community for me, is like when you have a very strong community, I'd never feel like I'm alone. Like I really don't. Yeah, and that's whether someone passes or just someone's like in another room. Like I feel like I still have those people. I know everybody I can call on for what thing I know. Who I wanted. If I can, like I want everyone to know I'm always gonna be there for them. So in my head I try to have like what I believe a guardian angel is, is like that mindset. Yeah. And trying to do that for others.'cause I think not enough people do that in life. And again, that's why I was so alert. Tora was seeing her. And it didn't matter what religion she was following. Mm-hmm. The fact that she was so caring, like she would, you know, give money to anybody who needed it even though she had no money. Yeah. Like, she was always putting others before her. Mm-hmm. And I was so shocked by it.'cause I grew up with like, uh, no, we should just keep it. And you keep your own area. If you can keep like your family good, that's all that matters. Yeah. And to me, my family is so much bigger than my, my literal family. Right, right. Everybody. And so like, I feel like we, there's like a point of me that this is so weird, I guess because I'm thinking of this, and this is just kind of like chain of thought, but like, I feel like everybody is each other's guardian angels in a way too. Like we're supposed to be there for each other. We're supposed to be there for the hard moments and not just like the, the nice ones Okay. So we believe in guardian angels. Do we believe in God? I'm trying to build your books. I know. I love it. My, the box hasn't been built in a while. I believe. I believe that there's a God, but I believe, I, I don't, I believe that there's like a, there's something, there has to be a thing. If it's the universe, if it's, I don't want to put it in like a full box. Yes. Okay. But I do believe that there is, I mean, there's so many religions in, they're also similar in their own ways. If you break them down, like there's no way, there's not something MyTable. Mm-hmm. And if the universe is as big as it is, there's no way, there isn't something that I can't picture it not having like a, it's not like purpose.'cause I feel like most people are looking for a purpose. Mm-hmm. It's just, but there has to be a reason to all of this. Do you think it's a higher power? Yeah, I think so. Okay. Mm-hmm. I do. But then there's also a part of me that's like, is it higher power? Like do they live forever or they like live forever? Like they just live so long and I don't know, like I like it changes hands or something. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. Like, I don't know, but I also could be like, we could be on like a TV show at Aliens, but like there, I don't know, like I have no idea, but in my head I'm like, I do believe that there's gotta be like an entity that is just, filled us with like all the right answers. Mm-hmm. Of like to love each other, to care. Like we have all the pieces. We obviously there's ways we can like humans ruin it in my eyes, but like we, that's why I'm so into community, it's so hard. This is such a hard thing to like go into. Yeah. But like, yeah. So all is to say, I do believe that there's an entity that is like doing it all and is like helping us out. I think so too. I just think there's too many moments for it not to be. Too many coincidences. There's too many signs and things, I think. Um, do you think that everything in your life is predestined? No. That I don't. Okay. I don't, I don't know why I don't. Mm-hmm. Like, do you believe that specific moments are predestined? Like you were destined to meet Keara, No, I think that we create our own. I think that there's paths. I think that there's definitely like maybe like. I don't know if there's something laying out like pathways to us and there's like choices and we can make different ones, like, you know, but I don't think there's a wrong choice. I don't think life has wrong. I think there's like, yes, there's a wrong choice that like, you know, you jump off of a building and think and fly, but I think that there's no wrong choice. I think that you're gonna do the right thing for this time in your life. Maybe there's another version you view in another universe or something. I was about ask like that if you believe. I do believe that. I believe that there's another version of me that went on to become a physical therapist. Like, oh, that's your other, oh, interesting. Oh, my dad was a physical therapist. Like I probably would've wanted him. Yeah. I think there's another version where like. I quit this industry at some point, uh, and went on to open Adel called Jeffs D. Like I think that that'd be great. I'm so, I do it, I'm supposed do it. I've accomplished everything I've wanted in the writing career at this point that I am also like, if, God forbid, this like doesn't work out again or I don't get another show where like AI becomes the whole thing. Yeah. I cury AI could, I could go start a deli. Yeah. That's what I really, but I, yeah. I love that. So when you were in this two year, you're talking about like the two year slump? Mm-hmm. Basically of no job. What kept you going through it? Mm-hmm. Then it was, it was like. Prayer, faith buying like candle, you know, like the candles from like House of Good Tuition. Oh God. Yeah. You know, you know, like I know, I know. It's like, it's that thing of like, you, you were, you're, you were putting everything into it. And again, it was stress. It was like every single time, and this is what I've noticed, every single time you, you grasp onto something, you white knuckle it, it's never gonna happen. Yeah. And it's the same thing. You learn whatever religion. It's also the thing of like no matter how much you're gonna pray for something, it's not going to work out possibly that way. That's not what God's plan might be for you in that sense. Yeah. So you need to be open to what is happening.'cause if you are so focused on one task, you're not gonna notice when that real thing is calling to you. And it might not be the thing that you liked, but at first, but it doesn't mean it can't turn into something that you will love, you won't know unless you go for it. Right? Yeah. So during that time it was like whatever I could do to stay sane was like I was writing a script, but then I didn't, I didn't do like what I feel like most writers do, which is like, just keep writing. Yeah. Once I wrote one, I was like, that's it. I did the thing. I like what I have. I now just have to wait for this. Like I can't, like I'll take meetings and I'll do the thing. Yeah. I'll try to put myself in the right place. But like if I'm not living life, yeah. While I'm doing this, then like what's the point? I can't just sit at a desk all day. Right. And it's, I don't know. For you guys, like do you feel like that when you're living life and you go out and you're like doing something and you're like actually exploring like something new or trying something new, do you feel like. That's when something like good opportunity comes or something that you're like, whoa, I didn't know this was gonna lead all the way to this. And if you trail it back, you're like, I got that job because of that somehow. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I think that happens, but I think it happens when you're not thinking about it, right? Mm-hmm. Like, like exactly what you're saying. You know? And like when you prioritize your life versus your career. Right. You know? And I think it's hard because I think our lives are so tied to our careers. Mm-hmm. And, you know, and, uh, it's hard. It's hard. It's hard to, to do, do that. But, um, in general, when you're, I feel like when I am being creative and not just acting wise and I have my community and I'm with my community and I'm doing all these things that we are also learning. You know, I think that Ari and I were nodding while you were saying these things because we have, I feel like this is a realization we've had over and over again of like the, like white knuckling is, is not it. Yeah. And we're trying to, yes. Navigate it and make it work for us. Mm-hmm. So, but yeah, I, I think so too. And, but it happens too because, and, and I think it's so pleasurable to then get to, uh, to a job or an audition or a play and, and like look back Yeah. And go, oh yeah,'cause yeah, I met this person, or I did this and I was open to it and Yeah. Was feeling it and. Yeah. Yeah. It's so hard when you are white knuckling to release the knuckles though. Like I think that's why we're trying to stay with open hands. Yes.'cause once they're grasped Yeah. It's hard. It's so hard to Yeah. I'm thinking I made it sound like it's easy. Like it's not, I think that, like I always look at it as like a high school relationship. I don't know. I always, oh, I had where you have those and all you wanna do is white up. Yeah. You wanna piece that no matter how. Wait, I love this metaphor. This makes so much sense. So much sense. Like how bad and how toxic a relationship can be. Especially'cause in the beginning too, we all grew up on like Disney movies. We're like, well I high school sweetheart. This has to work. This is gonna be great. You don't know. And I feel like for me, it took until my mid twenties and I think thanks to Keara too, again, like I didn't realize how much I was white knuckling onto everything. Yeah. And that's why every day was stressed and every day I felt like I might be having a heart attack.'cause I, I was a big hypochondriac. Mm-hmm. Um, and I feel like the moment. I realized it was like you just have to let go. And the moment I also realized, I'm like, I'm not living life. I'm just dedicating myself to my passion and that's it. And that's all I want. And I'm not like looking at the things around me or like exploring or like just even going to a restaurant one night, like, and spending a little extra money and like having a good night. Like I wasn't doing that. I was like, you have to save money. And then'cause when it gets bad and blah, blah, blah, and I'm gonna, maybe, maybe that'll all this hard work, all this stuff that, that's gonna get me the job. And it's never Yeah. Yeah. When I've been relaxed, when I've been the most fun. Yeah. When I've like felt the most carefree. Not about the job.'cause I still want the job. It's, it's not like I'm like, oh, I don't want it. Yeah, yeah. Wait, but you're grateful for the other stuff. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's when it really falls into place. And then, uh, the other thing too is like learning how to not white not vote once you have the job. And like, again, that's the thing. Yeah. You're learning how to release after that moment. I'm sure for you, when you guys are like preparing for like a show or something like that, you're probably still in that zone because that's what the body does. It's holding onto the stress that you had. So it's gotta be so hard to finally be like, how am I gonna break out of this? Yeah. Like, why do I feel like I'm not hitting the spot, hitting the mark that I'm supposed to be hitting? I used to, uh, we can edit this out if it's too gross for people, but I feel like you guys will enjoy this. Uh, talking about the show, um, I realized I was leaning back onto old superstition. Mm. Uh, there was this su there was this thing and I still kind of do it. I and I, okay. I had this theory mm-hmm. That right before, right before a show, say if I had a really good poop right before, it was gonna be a good show. Not just for me, for everyone. So you made sure. Same image. So, but here's the thing, you can't always force it. And I had to face reality of a show, not being able to go before and going, am I gonna have a bad show? And that there's like the counter poop. Poop. Were you thinking about pooping the entire show? Imagine Also, here's the thing, Olivia, just to, just to break fully, break the cycle for you. We were on an improv. Oh. You know, because you went and signed, we had about two good shows out of like unlimited 50, 60. We mostly had really bad shows. And you pooped before every single show. Every, that's the thing is it's worked every time. No, no, no it hasn't. No it hasn't. No, no, no, no, no. It didn't. We had some really very bad shows after you pooped. So I'm gonna, I'm helping you break this superstition. Okay. At two out of 60. It is not a good track record. I don't know one of our, well, for one of my to-do's performance. The one night that I liked the most, I was like, but did you just convince yourself of that Maybe thing? So, so that's what I'm trying to fight is the like, is the, like the flip side of it It's gonna be so hard to not be superstitious though. Especially they do in plays. Like I feel it's the same thing, like athletes, like they all do the craziest things before their games. I, I think now the way I do it too, I mean, improv's different too,'cause that you really have no freaking control over. I am so impressed that you guys do improv. I could never, like, it's so scary. We, we did. Yeah. Yeah. My return, my return, I did do an fully improvised found footage movie in October, which I loved. Oh, that must have been so, I felt like this. Oh, that to you. That's like the future of indie film that I was like, I belong here. I got this. I was gonna, that feels like that you would. Kill it. Yes. I loved it. And the, and the cast was so great. They were just all it, like what you're ta talking about, everyone was just there. It worked out that like, for the benefit of the project and and everyone was just really collaborative. It was really, really good. Yeah. It was so good. I love that. So do you have an equivalent of this poop thing? I, wait, wait, we just finish my thought real quick. I'll say No, no, no. It's okay. I cut you. Um, is this like now if I, now I don't force it like right now, now, now it's, it's, it's silly and I know it is, but if I do have a good proof before a show, I'm feeling good. Like, and, and I feel like, but no, it's, it's like a, it's like a, it's the cherry on top, right? Sure. It's more of like, oh, I, we got a little sprinkling and then I always think dy ISIS in the theater. Mm. Yeah. I let him take over and then I still do, the thing you used to do is I release and destroy my need to do this. Right. Yeah. I do that before. That's great performances. Oh, I love that. I gotta have that mantra before I go into a writer's room. Yeah. So that is stand up and take the Yeah. And take up a And I was telling you earlier too, for me it's feeling open and feeling grounded and, and a lot of it is kind of like, you know, uh, Alexander technique, if you know it, it's like a way of laying down. Mm-hmm. Breathing, meditating, just like centering yourself. And, and then kind of like, in doing that, I'm like excited to play. I'm ex I'm in that, I'm in that artist mind and, and to enjoy it. You've like push that out. You really have like, it's like, it feels like a physical representation of like just throwing away that stress, which is huge. And I like to remind myself of like, you get to do this. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. And you just trust yourself. Yeah. So those are, those are my, there's a reason you're there at that point. Yes, exactly. You're running a show. There's a reason you're there. There's a reason you got picked for the part. Yeah. So you've gotta throw that out that door. That's the same thing I try to do with like any writer's room or pitch or anything like that. Mm-hmm. I typically, I, my superposition is, I was listening to the same song before. Oh. I used to do that and I had to stop doing it'cause I got tired of the song eventually. What was the song? It was um,'cause I had one good pitch once and it was, um, sunflower from the, um. Put love on it. I love that song. I know it's a great song. I've, I've murdered it. I've murdered it now, so I keep trying to find new songs. That's so funny. My main thing that I do now is actually just make playlists to get in, like childhood mindset. So I play songs from when I was the most emotional as a little kid to get myself there again and be like, oh yeah, that's what it's like to be that, that's smart. So that when you're pitching again, you're being the most fun version of yourself because there is no energy stronger than a little kid. Yeah. With an, with something they want to tell you. Yeah. So, and it's infectious. It doesn't matter if it's like the weirdest or like, you know, worst thing you've ever heard. They are so into it that you're like, I wanna buy that. Yeah. Right. I wanna buy whatever you're talking about. Like, that's true. I listened to Licious before I perform. I actually did. I did it. I started this last year with a play that I was in, and then I did it for this, this big audition before I went into that big audition. I listen ion see sometimes the hoop or the song can help. Yeah. Yeah. Right. You can't white knuckle it. That thing. That's what I was trying to get to of like, you know, don't let it, oh, you don't listen to it. You're gonna be bad. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's a cherry on top. I It's a cherry on top. I like that analogy of it's just a cherry on top. Like you already got it. You've made the sundae by that point. Yes. You have it like Right. It doesn't hurt to have a little extra little oof in your like thing, but like at the same time, you're good. Yeah. You are going to do fine. Yeah. Like, and everything happens for a reason. Thanks mom again for putting that on the the shower. Oh my gosh. I feel like that show that I did last year made me realize like. That you have to leave space for magic. And we talk about this a lot because I, especially with theater auditions, I've noticed like the most successful theater auditions I've had, I have not been off book. And because I've let myself be like, I'm gonna be moved on the day of like what I wanna do. And like it's in those moments where I was supposed to exit and obviously I wasn't gonna exit. So I just like slowly sunk down behind a chair. Like really slowly. They love it, but like that came from the room. Yeah. You know, like you have to like leave space for that. So yeah. That's great. See, that's why, again, acting is such a scary thing for me.'cause it is that thing of like, I would just be like, I'm going to memorize this and I will do this. Exactly, yes. Versus like. The, the real thing of it is like space. Leaving that space and creating that character and then going with the flow of the audience. Like, that's so funny too. I love picture. It was funny. Yeah. I think there's always that impulse to be like, memorize it, memorize the choices. Go in and do exact because that, and I remember talking to Phil about this'cause we both went to n nyu, but different sort of programs. Mm-hmm. And they were talking about like, yes, preparing in that way could make good work, but like what's going to make great work is leaving space. Yeah. Do you feel the immediacy of when a show ends for you, you feel immediately like, what's next? Or are you able to hold onto the success a little longer? Um, with, so when I was on Bossy Bear and I was a head writer, that was like two years of my life. So it was like, what am I gonna do? Mm-hmm. And then I got another story, editor gig, and then after that one I was like, I need a break. And now I've been on that break for like two years and I'm like, I don't want the break anymore. I Yeah, you're, you're at the end of that. So I go like, okay, I know I'm gonna, you know, and again, if money wasn't an issue, like honestly I do love what I get to be doing. I'm getting to explore and I'm trying different things and I'm like, I'm working on like a serial killer feature. I'm working on little things too on the side, just like expand my brain and just see what that's like. But at the same time, I'm also like, really need that money, do something. But I'm trying to, as I said earlier, let it go. Yeah. It's not in my control. I've had interviews, which is great. Yep. And the industry, as we all know, is rough, but like, I feel like maybe it's gonna start coming up again soon. And I feel like I'll be ready, I'll have everything that I need. I just need it to open up a little bit more. So I'm trying not to good struggle, you know, too hard. I mean, I've taken up a part-time job. I've done other things too, and it's been, it's been great. And I'm doing things that I'm, I'm a site rep at like this place in downtown. Mm-hmm. And it's like they have shoots and I just have to like. You know, take care of like, making sure that the companies don't like screw it up or anything like that. Yeah. Somebody stole something, which was luckily not on like anything on me, but the cops came. I've never like had to interact with like a cop in like that scenario. Like not in animation. There's not like a cop coming by me like, we've somebody stole the, the storyboard or que or something. Oh my goodness. So I was like, this is cool. This is different. This is something that could turn, and who knows when it could go in my brain. And they were all weirded out by how excited I was. I think they were all like, he stole it. Yeah, I was gonna say,'cause I was just like, I was like jazz. I was like, I was like, hello, sir. Like I are you. I was like, we gotta find the forklift that got stolen. Let's go. It was a forklift. It was a forklift. That was a big thing to steal. Yeah. No, and I, he was the most exciting part of my day. I was like, I was like, I've not done anything this exciting in a while. Like funny, oh gosh, that's so funny. I wanna, okay, I wanna hear about your spiritual practices, but I wanted to ask about your hypochondriac past. Oh yeah. I could go into that. Yeah. Oh yeah. Uh, I was a major hypochondriac. Um, I would always think I was dying or having a stroke, having a heart attack. Uh, Keara used to take me to the hospital a bunch. Really? And there was a point where like, I think. We were three years into our relationship, I've been in the hospital like three times to like get my heart checked out and I was just panicking. I didn't know I was having panic attacks at the time. Okay, okay. Um, and when did that start? When I was a script coordinator on Captain Underpants was when it was really starting.'cause it was, that was a tough room. It wasn't anything like, just tough. It was just tough. I, and I really wanted to be good and I was white knuckling everything. I wanted to be so good at the job and I felt like I wasn't doing it or I felt like I wasn't getting the opportunities to, and there was just a lot to it where I was like, there was just so much in me. And that energy, that nervous energy of like the high schooler, again, like in a relationship where you're like, I'm, I'm gonna make this work. And it wasn't and I shouldn't have been trying to make that work. And through that. All that hypochondria was coming out in different ways. Mm. And it was just always in my own body and I would always have to call my dad and have we called it talking you off the ledge of like, you're okay. You don't need to go to the hospital. Talk through it with me. That's so scary. Yeah. Yeah. Oh it was Because I know it feels real, right? It does, it does. I mean, one time I got, the worst point was I was in a target with Keara and a couple friends and we were just walking and I've never passed out before, but I felt the sensation of like the right side of my head started feeling really, really heavy. And I started panicking and I was like, I'm having a stroke. Yeah. And I apparently felt down and then got right back up'cause my adrenaline kicked in. I prevented myself from like getting knocked out. But then I was like talking like slower, like,'cause I was just like so panicked. So then they all had to take me to the hospital, but my dad was on the phone and trying to like get them to not take me. And it just added even more stress at the time. God. Yeah. Yeah. So three years in Keara was like, you, I don't know if I can continue a relationship where like, you are always doing this. You need to do practices to like get past this. Yeah. Whether that was meditation, therapy, all that. And I was very reluctant to it at first. And Keara's gonna laugh'cause I'm reluctant to everything that she always pitches usually. And she write every time, every single time. She's right. I'm saying it on a podcast. It's Wow. Make sure this stays. Yeah. She, your episode was Keara's, right? Keara. Listen to Kiro. She is. Right. Um, and so yeah, I did therapy and then I, you know, slowly went on, um, Zoloft and I was afraid that was gonna, like, I was like, I've been successful mm-hmm. Based on who I am now, so I don't want to change that. Yeah. And that was when I knew I was really in a toxic part of my life of like. My stress isn't what defines me. But at the time I was like, no, I'm stressed. Every time I've been stressed. That's gotten me a job. Yeah. Why is that not the thing? And then I learned, I was like, that's not it. That's not it. All right. It was in spite of that, not because of it. And so how, I mean, panic attacks are not fun. Ted Lasso does a really great episode on panic attacks. This is very much like loves head las up. It's very much that feeling of you're, you just lock up and you're, you. Nothing is going to help you in that moment. Right. And you can't get to that point, like you just can't. And so I've worked on that tremendously. I started meditating. It wasn't for me in the sense that I just can't, I fall asleep every single time. I always do. And it's just comfy. I really like it. Um, but I exercise, I do a lot of exercising. That's been helpful. And I do a lot of, uh, you know, sitting with my own thoughts, listening to music, jamming out to that, and just trying to like get me to not take things so seriously and it's really worked out. So do you ever feel it bubbling up in you at all? Yeah. Okay. Time to time. I do. Um, I recently actually had that. I got really emotional watching out of nowhere. We were watching Love on the Spectrum, which is a great show. Yeah. I love it. It is so beautiful. And I don't know what it was. And all these emotions hit me. And ki was like, I think you're stressed again. Oh, you're just getting hit by stressed. And I was like, I don't know why. And I didn't know what triggered it. You never know what it is. I think it's, when you're finally relaxed, it triggers, and I had just done like this really long, extensive job interview. Mm-hmm. Um, and so I was really terrified. It's a delayed reaction process. It was a delayed reaction. Okay. It just hit me hard. Wow. And I, I felt like a child again of just being like, wanting to thrash around and like, just get outta my own skin. And I was like, what's wrong? Here's like, you're just how to breathe through it. Yeah. And it, I did eventually, but it was back in the day. That would've been a hospital trip. 100%. Wow. Wow. Yeah. Have you tried the like sour candy trick? What's the sour candy trick? Apparently with, for anxiety attacks. Mm-hmm. In particular, uh, sour candy. It's, it's, it basically like shocks your, it like, it like really it's supposed to help people. Um,'cause it's like, I wonder if that's why that's something favorites. Candys. Maybe. Maybe, maybe. Yeah. Like did get a, some sour candy. It kind of like, distracts the anxiety. I'm gonna anxiety try it next time. I don't know how legit it is, but, uh, I've heard it's worth a shot here again, everything's worth a shot. Like I would do anything, I'm sure. Or like the, like how many things can I hear when, you know, that one where it's like, how many things can I see? How many things can I hear? Mm-hmm. Or it's like five things. You can see five things, you can hear five things, four things. You can, I thought it goes down. Oh, count. Oh, the, yeah, it's like a list. And it basically just like, okay, what color is, because you're distracting yourself. You're, you're giving your brain. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I used to do that, but I would do a stroke test like I would somewhere once. It was like, if you, if you're smiling and like, you know, like you, you, you, if you can't form a smile, that's an issue. If your face is s like I did the whole thing. Wow. I would go through everything, every single time, which was like. Begging for it to happen. Like in a way, like it was almost like the wrong way, way to do it. Because you start thinking about it in any little thing that you see as a detail. You're like, well then it did. Yeah. I'm gonna die. Because you're just, at that point in my life too, I was so afraid of losing everything because everything was going good every single time. And that's the moment where you're like, well, something bad has to happen. And that's not true. Yep. We talk about this all the time. All the time. We talk about this all the time. It's not true. It's not, it's not true. Like, because think about, I've now tried this recently and I highly recommend it'cause it does work. Mm-hmm. Go into something positive, say you're going to get it, say you are, it's going to work out. Right. Okay. Okay. And when you, if you doesn't and you get let down, it actually doesn't hurt as bad as you think. Mm. Like everybody's always like thinking it's going to hurt so much worse. But if I think that it's not gonna happen, it won't hurt as bad. It's about the same. Yeah. No matter what, you didn't get something. And that's a bummer. But. If you go into it with positive, you're at least living a more positive life and you're not ingesting all that stress and putting it in your body and just keeping it in there like, yeah. Kerick has a mantra she's been saying that's been really helpful and we've been doing it. At first I laughed at it. Mm-hmm. Not like,'cause I was just like, it sounds weird to me, but it was like, it's just, I'm the kind of person that everything works out for. That's what she's been saying, Uhhuh and it's been working. Wow. Where things out? I got a job interview outta nowhere. She got her job. Yes. I'm the kind of person that things, everything works out way that everything works out. And I was like, at first I was like, that sounds so, like my ego got in the way of being like, I was like, I can't say that. Like I can't, I can't be the person that everything works out or that sounds so, oh yeah. Messed up at this time. There's a lot of people where things aren't working out for them, but that's not the point of it. Right. The point of it is for you to mentally just go. I'm the kind of person everything works out for. It's going to be okay. It might not work out in the way that I want it to. Yep. But it doesn't, doesn't mean it's not going to work out. You just, every single time anything hasn't worked out, time has healed that. So you know that at some point it will get better. And like that's, that's the mindset. I love that Keara, Keara, Keara, she's right. She's always right. She's Keara's. Right. I like that shift too, because I feel like the a, and I actually heard this on a podcast I was listening to recently about affirmations and how,'cause it's supposed to be in the present moment, right? Mm-hmm. But saying something in the present moment that isn't true can kind of like mess you up a little bit. Like for a while I was saying, oh, okay, auditions are flowing to me. I'm in a state of abundance. I'm turning down jobs. That's not true of me right now. Like, I'm not turning down jobs right now. Right. But to say I'm a person who everything works out for that is believable. Yeah, yeah. You know? Yeah. I like that. That's what you do. You need to, you need to find that thing that's believed. That's such a good way of putting it.'cause it really is. That's the thing. I'm like, well then everything, everything's good. Like it's not, and again, you're not just focused on one thing and you not saying, I'm gonna get this, I'm gonna get this. Right. I love that because it opens it up and again, you can, you're putting it out in the universe and you're trusting the universe is gonna be there for you. And it is. And sometimes it's not gonna work the way you want it to, but it, it does at the end of the day, I feel like as long as you have, you know, good community and you have the right mindset mm-hmm. There's nothing better. So. Yeah. Yeah. Is there a lesson that you want to tell kids? Like through your work? Do you have anxiety, anxiety, anxiety? I wanna, I, every, every show I work on, I want an episode about anxiety and how to handle it. Kids right now, especially you growing up in the most anxiety ridden time as a parent for like, if you were a parent right now, I assume like with your kids, you don't. You don't know what they're ingesting. Like with like your anxiety. Yes. Your feeling it, but we all feel it. It's the same thing. It's known that like children, pets, same thing as like you are, they're ingesting your level of stress. Yeah. Which, how does that not add more stress to you? You're not like, oh, I, but that's the thing. I think that if you teach lessons on anxiety, don't make it so taboo. Mm-hmm. And understand and talk to activity. Age might feel younger than you think to talk about anxiety. It's good.'cause they will be overwhelmed at some point. Yeah. Right. Whether that's just like making the right decision on an ice cream scoop. Mm-hmm. You know, you can only get one. Is it vanilla? Is it chocolate That can cause anxiety? Yeah. Like it's, and especially'cause little kids too, like when you get to high school, everything is. The, you know, life or death. It feels like that. Yeah. You have to remember that. So my whole thing is always like trying to figure out how to successfully tell kids it's not life or death. Mm-hmm. It's your hormones talking and it's all this stuff that's making you start, go, go like crazy and believe that. And I, that's my big thing. It's like anxiety and trying to hit that. There's a bunch of a lessons too that are great, like, you know, share and stuff. No, but that's, that's not as fun as like really going into anxiety. Yeah. That's amazing. I love that you do that. I can't wait for my kids to be old enough to watch your shows. Oh, I do. There's gonna be some preschool shows too, so. Yeah. When it does, I'll let you know. You should. Yeah, please. Oh my God, I love that because I, all the people who work on them are always like so sweet and they genuinely, were trying to make the best show that really is like helping kids. Mm-hmm. Like, we just want and make'em laugh. The key is to make'em laugh, you know? Yeah. Ah, so good. So good. So what are your spiritual practices that you do right now? I have my notebook. Okay. I'm ready. He's ready. No, I have the one because we kind of talked about it and I think that it would really help. I don't know if you guys are gonna go like, it's easy, which is good. It's like you don't have to go anywhere. Make a playlist with every, oh. Make a playlist with every childhood song. The one that makes you cringe, the one that makes you feel uncomfortable, the one that reminds you of possibly your worst moments as a team, but also your best moments. Ooh, hit that and listen to that and remember and write down that memory.'cause one day you're gonna forget it as you get, as I've gotten older, I'm really starting to forget my childhood memories. I realize that, but when I play music, it comes back to me perfectly, and it makes me realize when that was such a serious time or something was so scary, then that none of it, everything's always gonna feel scary. You know, and that's okay. And I love going into that mindset and just bring myself back to being a kid. Mm. So I say, try being a kid for two weeks, like, and do that. Oh, I love that. I'm so excited. For example, I do the Kingdom Hearts theme song. Amazing. The first one, sanctuary. Uh, I couldn't listen to it because I would get emotional. And I remember when I was in like fifth grade, sixth grade, I back then couldn't process why? It was emotional. I didn't know what it was. It just made me like, it was, I think it was, it was so emo in my head. I was like, this guy wants to end up with Kyrie, but he can't get to her. Just all this stuff. And so I couldn't watch it. And then I listened to it recently and it transported me back to being that kid. And I was like, I feel like I'm gonna cry. I was like, why is this happening? Why is this song from Kingdom Hearts gonna make me cry?'cause a fifth grader, it didn't make sense. Then like, why would you cry? Right? So I found things like that. I find those songs that put me in that mindset. So again, when I'm writing for kids too, I'm like. That's how you get in that mindset. Again, you need to remember that when you're a kid, there's the weirdest, like you, like circuit board that you've created. Yeah. That gets you do something right. You know? Yeah. I don't know if you guys have a song off the top of your head that you could think of that is that childhood song that would like you, you are afraid to listen to again because you know it's gonna put you in that spot again and transport you back. Interesting. Look for it. Find it. I'm excited. I know one song, but I listen to it all the time. You do? And then put it on again. It's the, um, score, uh, scores really get to me, so I'm sure there's gonna be a lot of scores. Yeah. Uh, but it's, it's ending Pocahontas song. Oh. It makes me cry almost every time. Really. But I'll do, I'll play it to cry. Mm-hmm. When you wanna cry, when I wanna cry. Yeah. Let it out. Yeah. Let your emotions out. Yeah. Because it's just, it's like a swell, any kind of music that swells Yeah. And a chorus that swell gets you. And even if I don't know it, I, I start to cry. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. But I'm, I, I wanna find like the more like teenagery ones, that one I'm not, I can't think on the top of my head. Excited. Yeah. I mean like the ones that you wouldn't admit to, your friends that you listen to, like that's what you gotta make a playlist of. Yeah. I was a bit, oh, I got one. Ocean Avenue. Yeah. Oh, I love that song. And sit with it. Listen to it. And remember what memories you had. Like, was it the one time you were driving with somebody or like, you know something. Yeah. And then write out that memory and like remind yourself again. Because then you can always like, go back to that book. You can read it or you can listen to that song and you'd be like, none of this matters. I love, like my life's been really like interesting and fun, and anything that's low is gonna become high. So I'm so excited. This is a great one. Can't Believe This didn't come to me immediately on my way to high school, almost every morning. You'll never guess. I'm trying to think'cause I'm like you. You were into acting and I don't know if it's an acting thing, but I don't feel like it is. I feel like this is gonna be like a pop song. If you like Pee Coladas, get God in the Rain. I listen to that every morning. Don't ask me. I just loved it. Can you picture her walking to school? How was that like if it had headphones, everybody else was listening to like one at that time. Yeah, like Eminem or something and you are blasting in my car. Just, okay. I love that. So, wow. That's hilarious. I'm so excited. I'm gonna listen to your guys' playlist. Yes. Because then I'm gonna know so much more about you. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. You are wonderful. Thank you so much. I love you. This is so great. It's been so fun. I've been, as I told you, I've been listening and it's been a blast. We never did the farewell to the tarot. I, so I like you to, which again, I'm just so happy that it was exactly in the guidance of like just. Where life is right now. Yeah. I feel great. Okay. Fair's clever. Fair's Bright from garden, wood and pond. You shed your glorious light. Many thanks for helping me find a path. That's true. And right. Yay. Thank you guys. Really. Thank you so much. Is there anything you wanna plug? Any shows you have coming up that we can watch? Oh, we have, we have Boss, bossy Bear. Bossy Bear. If you go on Amazon, find my review and don't send him money. No. And then Venmo requests me. You can do it. I'll put it on my playlist. Um, I'm totally cool with it. And I plug Tadpoles when that eventually comes out, but, uh, i'm, I'm just happy about life. I'm happy I got to do this. This is so fun. You guys are doing this is so cool. So Yay. Yay. Thank you. Thank you so much. Well, this has been SPODA. Until next time, keep sane. Live well.