Authenticity As Spirituality: Improviser, Writer and Story Editor Josh Brown

In this episode of SPODA, Olivia and Ari start with a recap of last episode's spiritual practice, indulging! They also discuss how this episode kind of messed Ari up a bit, and we continue along Ari's Questioning Journey.

Our guest, Josh Brown, delves into his upbringing with two parents of different religions, his love of "The Artist's Way," his journey from acting to writing, and how his spirituality is from the inside out - and it all starts with authenticity.

Beautiful music by Doug Harvey

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Follow Josh @joshrileybrown

Josh's Improv Teams: @croptopprenupimprov

@midnightdinercomedy

Transcript

0:11

Hello. Whoa, so mellow. Hello. Wow. Who are you? SPODIES. I wish you guys could see this. We're just talking about how like we won't, we will not be doing video for this podcast'cause like it will make it worse. But Olivia looks like, like a funny, like old woman. Who's in some piano bar, like four martinis in mm-hmm. My acting, she like took control of the piano. She was like, get outta here piano. It's my turn now. I have a cigarette. Yeah. Oh yeah. A hundred percent. Like tucked behind your ear. Oh yeah. You know, it's still weird. Everyone's like so worried about you. Yeah. Okay. Well there's your visual. Um, welcome to Spiritual Practices of the Disgruntled Artists, where we interview a new artist each episode to learn how they're keeping themselves sane and spiritually healthy during this epically challenging time to be an artist. Yes. And then every episode we take one of our artists' practices. And we implement it for about two weeks into our lives. And then in the beginning of each episode we talk about how that went for us and, and all the good things. So our last was Kristina. Yeah. It was the chaos theory for those who who do not listen. Definitely listen. Interesting theory. Um, and the practice was like in, I called it. Or we call it like the indulgence. Indulge yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Um, how did that go for you? Great. Great. I know. Yeah. Indulging myself is not hard. I realized, I was like, I think I kind of live my life a little bit like this, honestly. Sure. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely like, I mean, I asked myself the same questions. I just said, yes, more. Yeah, I'd be like, Uhhuh, well I had a donut yesterday. Should I really have another donut today? And I was like, well, I'm doing the practice going, I'm have to, gonna have to go with yes on that one. Are you gonna commit? Are you gonna commit? Yeah. Yeah, I, yeah, I think I, we, we deserve indulgence. I think it's just about like, what do you, if you want it. I think that's what it brought up for me. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and like I got that shirt, I think I got the shirt during this practice because I was like, I want this shirt and I wanna cut it and make it a little crop top thing. And that was nice. Like little joys, I think. Yeah. It actually, this reminded me a lot of Kira's practice. Oh yeah. I noticed it was like, there was something like, especially when you did indulge it, I took a moment, it was like, Ugh, this is it. This is, this is feeling good. Uh, yeah. Like, uh. Courtney came down. Best friends, shout out Courtney again. Hey Courtney. Girl. Hey Courtney. Girl, what's up? We like this one was like planned. Uh, but I think they like, we went to the aquarium. We had a book called Mermaid Day. I, I told you Love us a theme and then afterwards we went to the dog Beach is sat and just watch a bunch of dogs. Yes. Perfect. And they were on earth. We were, we weren't gonna go into the water. But then, uh, unfortunately there was a lifeguard going around being like telling people to get off. Right? Yeah. Yeah. But, but, um, when we were there, like, you know, those like little fruit carts? Yes. I love it. Yeah. I never bought one. Right. And I was like, yes, yes. All the fruit please. Yep. Moid and hin. Yes. All of it. The works. Yep. And. Sat there eating that, watching a bunch of dogs on a beach. I love that too, because it felt like, yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Uh, and I know, I think too, like for me, indulgence isn't like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't also call it like luxury. Like it's not expensive. Yeah. And I think that's something I was like keeping in. I was like, oh yeah, I've noticed like a lot of my indulgence, like yeah, obviously like. You know, you indulge in having coffee and obviously that adds up. Mm-hmm. But like, I was also like keen to how can you indulge in the little Yeah. Little, little ways. Yeah. I love that. Um, and I think that is how we should live our lives. Yeah. Day to day. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Find the joy. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's too hard without it. Yeah. How, how was it for you? Yeah, it was good. Yeah. I think I real, yeah. I definitely was like, oh, I ask myself these questions. Mm-hmm. And I, I think I usually do say yes. I mean, when I. Before I had Fiona, I would be like, you can only have a donut if you really, really want one. If I was like, I have a craving for, then I would like go get, go like, and then I would get a donut. Right? Yeah. Or you have to work for it. There's like this, yeah. Yeah. Like yeah. Kind of mentally work for it. Yeah. This is like if you brought donuts. You know what I mean? I'd be like, well, I wasn't craving a donut so I'm not gonna have, you know what I mean? Like that stuff. But after the, like the birth from hell, I was like, Bonnie, you deserve, I think I said it to him, yeah, you deserve a donut a week and like you don't have to run anymore. You know what I mean? Like we can do other forms of exercise that you like actually enjoy. Yeah. So, and that way I think I've kind of already been on the path of indulgence. Love it. Yeah, but I was gonna say that this, this, uh, episode with Josh, like, it like messed me up. I don't wanna give too much away'cause you're gonna hear it right now, everybody. But like, I don't know. It brought up this question, which I just, I feel like I'm just like in a place of questioning. Yeah. Period. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a big part of it is like, not to jump on it, but like you were all, I think you were already there in the timing. Yes. And then. Uh, not to give anything away, but like mm-hmm. You know, deciding to leave acting was, is something that we talk about with Josh. Yes. Right, right, right. Yeah. Josh talks about leaving acting. I, I, I wanna be clear, I'm not like leaving acting right now, but I'm having a lot of questions mm-hmm. About like, just how random this career is, this industry. Yeah. It just feels like it keeps getting more random and I don't know, he says in this, like, if I just had a nine to five job and I was still a writer, like I would be good with that and I wouldn't be good with that when I was an actor. He says, mm-hmm. If it was, if he wasn't successful, quote unquote with it, he didn't wanna do it. And, and I, I don't know, like I've been thinking about that a lot because I've been like, that's kind of what I'm saying, right? Like, I'm basically saying I want to be successful at this in a way that like is undeniable, I guess. Okay. Yeah. And if it's not gonna be that, then I wanna have nothing to do with it. Nothing to do with it. So, but I also think, like what we were talking about earlier is like. The acting thing and the writing thing are totally different. You can write a masterpiece by yourself in your room and, and you know, let your friends read it or whatever. Yeah. And like that is fulfill it is the act of writing, which is the fulfillment of it. Right. The act of acting by yourself in your bedroom. Like I don't think that is the same. Yeah. But then should it be Right. Well, I think some people, like I, there are probably some actors who are able to act and like know, like, I'm not gonna do this professionally, but I just like to go and act in. You know, community theater now and then, and like, that's fine. Yeah. But like that, that is not what your goal was. You know what I mean? Right. Like, and I think it is hard, especially in La Este, especially as a working actor Yeah. To separate yourself from the artistry, from the business. And like, you can love you. We know we, we, we, there's no denying we. You and me. We love acting. Yeah. We love it. We love it. We love it. We love it. Do we love the business? Yeah. No, you know hard. No, hard. No. So I think it makes sense on, I think it makes sense to, to hear like, well, it would be too painful, right? This idea of if I was gonna do it, but only, not half ass, but like Right, but half, only. Half half of what you want. I think there is, I think that's probably why there's that idea of like, well, I don't wanna do it at all. Hmm. Um, I would be curious to see, I am not, I'm not saying that I don't think that that can happen, but I think over time, like. I, I, I don't know. I just feel like it, it would be hard to be so black and white in the, in that eventually. Yeah. Right. But I think it makes sense to have that mentality of trying to separate from that or, or even allowing yourself to even acknowledge that idea. That it, it is just easier to make it more black and white. It is, it's much easier. You know what I mean? Yeah. Which like, I'm not saying like I'm locked into the year thing. Yeah. Like I, I think it went from me being like, I'm gonna live this year, like my future self to now. It has sort of like a negative connotation to it, which I'm working to remedy, but now, it feels like after this year if things are not radically different mm-hmm. Then I think I need to leave. It's the first time I've ever looked into other jobs, things like other careers, you know? Yeah, yeah. So I don't know. It's sad. And I, I mean, it really is me basically turning it over to the universe for the year and, and I just like have to trust that if it was meant to be right now, then it will be unequivocally clear. You know what I mean? Yeah. And not like half clear, not the same as it is, like undeniable undeniably clear. Right. I think it's also brought up, because we were talking about like, Fiona is going to kindergarten next year and I've also just been feeling so grateful and lucky that like Philip and his job allow me to stay home with the kids and act like so few people get that Right. But I don't wanna, like when they are in school full-time, I don't wanna be like, and now I either have to get sort of a side job non nothing job. Yeah. Or like. Work in the community of production and theater to make money.'cause like if I'm not, if I'm, if I'm, that's what's weird about, like if I'm acting and it's working, I'm totally fine with teaching. I'm totally fine with working in a theater, but if I'm not acting, I don't wanna teach. I don't wanna work in a theater, I don't wanna work in production. I don't wanna have anything to do with it if I'm not, if I have left it. You know what I mean? So it's kind of sticky. Yeah, it's sticky and it's stinky. It is stinky. But also like, I think the best thing. That you should do what I would encourage you mm-hmm. Is stay as present as you can in the moment. Yeah. And not project into the future. Right, right, right, right. Like,'cause I think we were talking about, like how much do our guests influence us? And I think that it's a good thing. Like we're, we're trying all, all these things and we're hearing all these ways to think about it and all that stuff. I think whatever happens next, I need to divorce myself from, I need to unentangle my identity right from being an actor, and I also need to not feel like I'm unsuccessful if I'm not successful. As an actor, like in that moment, and I've been reading this big magic book. Mm-hmm. And like she talks a lot about making an agreement with her art that she will never rely on it for money. She's does not tie to her success to her art, but also she's a writer. And I do think it's different because I think you can create, do you think you could do that? I don't. I mean, not right now. Like I think that this is like, I think it's the year of me trying to figure out how to, not. Rely on the, my success as an actor to feel successful because I just like the system as we know, like this isn't new information. Like the system is rigged and it's random and it's like what we talk about with success, that face-to-face Friday that I did of like being an old capricious bitch. Yeah. Basically. Yeah. You know, of just like randomly being like, oh, a cute teen boy, let's like pop you on a TV show or like randomly just, yeah, this person out of nowhere. Just like books a role and you know, like, yeah. It's just, it's just like the whims of it all. And I think that's why I've been trying to tap more into spirituality and magic. Mm-hmm. Because that feels like, it feels like more likely to happen with magic than it does any other way. Because it feels like magic. Feels like magic is like, it truly feels like magic. Yeah. You know? So I mean like, I'm trying to just be like, the universe has a plan, like whatever's meant to happen, I will be guided towards it. I'm meditating more so I can just like listen more. Right. Yeah. I think having dates in our like time limits. Yeah. Uh, there are pros and cons. Right, right, right. And I think the, the negative side is like. Y you know, you're, yeah. You're giving yourself a limit. You are limiting. Yes. Right? I am. You are limiting yourself, you know? Yeah. Like what if, what if, okay. What if in a year, maybe not, but what if it was a year and a half? Right. Right. But see, that's the quarter, that's the, this is, I call it the quarter mentality of like feeding quarters into a machine that just keeps eating your quarters. Yeah. At a certain point you have to be like, I will no longer give this machine my quarters. I think that's just the point that I'm at now. Yeah. Of being like, it's been 15 years of giving quarters and I have gotten the toy in this metaphor, like, like more than some more, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like I, it hasn't been like no toys. Right. But like, is it worth, but it's not consistent. Like you want the consistent Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't feel like it is, it does not feel like it is undeniably going to happen. That's how I feel. Okay. You know, so, well how, what, what, what would make it feel like undeniable? I think like if it was like, if I was, I mean there are a couple options. Like one is like, I am super regular, easy. Mm-hmm. One is like. Um, even if I'm just like recurring on a show, but like, and therefore other s scripts are coming to me, offers are coming to me, it's, you know, offers for in films, that's fine. Just like yeah. Stuff where it's like this is moving forward, you know? Yeah. But I also, like, I had the whole breakdown after the show and told the universe living with my future self, got those two auditions in a day right. Back to back. Did I know I did great work for both of them. Yeah. One of them was like virtual in person and like we really connected. She really loved me. Right. Didn't get that. Didn't get, that was up for a play with my theater company that I loved the script. It would've been working with Sam friend of the pod. Yeah. Who I love. Great director. Didn't get that. So it just feels like my bowl of nose has overflowed. Right. Like I feel like I was given a big bowl and it was like, this is to hold all the nose. And now it finally has tipped over. You need like a lot more yeses. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe that's a good point. Maybe the yeses would. Take away a no. Right. Like, that's possible, right? Um, yeah. Or one friend was like a big yes. Would empty your bowl from the nose, you know? Right. Which maybe it would like if I got another recurrent guest star right now, would that, yeah, I think that's why I asked like, what, what would that mean for you? Like. Yeah, but I'm also just so tired chasing it. Like right now, I'm like growing my hair out to a bob just for myself, like, because I haven't had longer hair in this whole time. But I've been chasing it of like, okay, well the platinum hair, like it puts me in a box. So like, let's go back to my natural hair color and and my commercial agent isn't happy with it, so they want me to go with. A photographer who's like insanely expensive. So let's do that. Like just, I'm just like chasing, chasing, chasing, chasing. And like, what I'm hoping is that actually the way it's gonna happen is for me to be fully in receiving mode and I am intentionally doing that. Like I am intentionally like not chasing Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Not being like, I have to impress, I have to do this, I have to email this person. I have to, I'm intentionally like, if you want me. Universe, God, to do this. Like, show me. Yeah. Like show me in a way that I cannot miss it, you know? Mm-hmm. But it's hard. It's hard. I really hope you get it. I really hope the universe hands you this giant. Yes. I really hope so. It would change a lot for me. And then we could just be here and I could just be like, sorry, it was annoying. Sorry. No, that's, that's part of it. I think, I think I, I think more than anything, any, any kind of, especially actors, um, obviously we have, we've had a lot of writers on this show. Yeah, we have. Me too. But like, like I feel like obviously we come from a actor's perspective in that like, uh, that is mostly what we're trying to figure out is Yes. How to handle those bowl of nose and. And we're constantly reassessing. Mm. We're constantly reassessing. I think that's kind of what I was gonna say is, is like how we're like being influenced by, you know, our artists and stuff like that. But I think at the end of the day, like we are choosing what works for us and I think that's what you're choosing. Like you've, you have been like, you know, I think you are in this surrendering because you have been very like. Pushing. Pushing, but not in a negative way, but like, yeah. Yeah. And not saying that that, that's not good too, but like yeah, you got to, you gotta enjoy your life. Going back to this like indulgence at the end of the day, like Right, right. We have to be happy with our lives. Yeah. And um. And I'm not saying like I could see a world in which you me, it's not anybody like has a separate career for a couple years and then is like motivated to get back into acting and it's a totally different story. Yeah.'cause as we always say, like age is just a very different factor. And maybe it is because I'm in kind of a weird age pocket right now where like I'm going for people who are 40 but I don't look like I'm 40. And we're like, who knows? Like we don't know. We just don't know the answer. Or maybe it is because the industry is weird and like I a lot of that, I also think that's why the year thing is good'cause supposedly. This year is supposed to be like almost relatively normal in the new normal, which is never, it will never be what it was. We'll see before COVID, but we'll see. Yeah, but like no fires, no strikes. First year of it like so. Oh yeah. So I think it's good to give it a year. But yeah, I really feel myself being like, God, I would feel so much better if I could just black and white this right now and be like, okay, like I'm making the decision right now. It's very hard for me to be constantly in limbo but I don't wanna also make the decision out of like a fear-based, lack based place, because I think then you're setting yourself up for later on questioning that decision. Yeah, I agree. That's smart. It sucks. Like why is it so freaking hard to be an actor? Why? I don't know. I dunno. Tell us. Tell us why it's so hard. Write in and tell us why people, yeah. I just love to be acting all the time. Me too. Yeah. How about you? Have you been. Having doubts or are you in a good spot? I think I'm in of the same spot. Uh, I do actually have an in-person audition. Great. Monday. What's it for? TurboTax. Great. TurboTax. We love it. Love that. Monday, uh, granted and I joked we're like, instead of paying us, can you just pay our taxes? Yeah, totally. That, that's funny. Yeah. Uh, no, you know, uh. I think I'm also in a very lucky position where I'm okay financially. Yeah. And so you don't have just keep on going to rely on your art for success, it's just for you or for, for money, I guess. No, but eventually we'll catch up. You know, I do know that, you know, and, and I want to like, I think at the end of the day I want to, and I, and I we're always. Yeah, we're always obviously coming back to like, how, what is this one and how much of it is like, worth fighting and Yes. I'm still ready to inter battle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I, I think I'm still, I haven't been thrown into battle quite as much as you so Right. So, yeah. You know. Yeah. Yeah. But, uh. I think I'm feeling good. Yeah, that's good. And if you're in a positive spot, you should like, hold onto it. That's what I, yeah. I was like, yeah, this feels good. Yeah. Yeah. And I noticed more and more because of all these guests we've had that like, and we, we keep on, you know, keep on repeating how random it is. Like I, I think. E even though I'm at, at a very positive place, I think I'm continuing the work of like trying to, uh, separate my worth from it. Yeah. Yes. I know. I feel like that's one of the greatest lessons in this for both of us. Yeah. Yeah. And also like going back to, uh, some advice from, I've heard from like a couple of actors, like big time, and I think it's easier said than done, but in the off seasons.'cause I think even very successful people have off seasons in that. Like, what can you do? And I think this is just a good thing to do in life is just like, make your life as in, make yourself as interesting as possible. Like take up those habits. I think we talked about this too, uh, I would like to draw more, you know, but, you know, just like things that, where it's like, oh, well there's other things in life that bring me joy in. Totally. And, and try to try to focus on those as well, you know? Yeah. But not, not dropping the acting and the focus, but like letting that Yeah, that's a good point. The other thing I was thinking about is like how maybe it will help me to just really embrace the full on randomness of it. Mm-hmm.'cause what I'm noticing with guests is that if there's a success story, then it's like human nature to go back and be like, for example, if it were me, this audition for the play. Yeah. My new, my general role with theater auditions is don't be as off book as you would be with film. Let yourself be moved in the room. Right. And I was, we, I, we, me and Sam like worked on it together and I was like, really memorized and stuff and you can go back and be like, and that's why I didn't get it. But if you're just in a place of like, it's all actually random and if you did do it the other way, you still weren't gonna get it'cause you just weren't gonna get it. Right. Right. Or like, but I think like when people are successful, they're like, and that's because that was the one audition, right? That I went into and I was like, had on this necklace that reminded me of my grandma. Or like, I went into it just fully cold re like I didn't even know what I was doing and that's why I booked it. Maybe you just booked it because you were meant to book it. Maybe whatever the hell you did or didn't do, there's years, or there's too many reasons that add up to why you did or didn't. Yeah. Like, you know, like you can't pinpoint it to one. Right, right. You know, like, so I'm trying to just, I think I'm also just trying to like really embrace the randomness of it and both of the success and the failures of no matter what I did in that room, I wasn't gonna get it. No matter what I did on that tape, I wasn't gonna get it if it wasn't meant to be mine. You know? And the truth is like if I had gotten that play, I would not be in this place that I'm in now of questioning and surrender. I would be psyched about that play. You know what I mean? Right. Like I wouldn't be in this place, like maybe this is a place that I need and event to be in. And the only way to get me there was to be like, we're gonna just do three back to back nose, like right in a row. And that's gonna overflow your bowl and like now you need to. Divorce yourself from Yeah. The, the beast of success in this career. Yeah. Lessons. That's hard. It just doesn't feel like it should be this hard, honestly. Really? Yeah. Well, well, that's what we got. Yeah. And that's okay. Yeah. I think, I think that's also it is trying to be okay not being okay, but also like. Yeah. Being okay in the waiting room. The waiting room. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for sticking along in between with our career journeys. Yeah. Uh, our next guest is great. Yeah. Even though I, even though he said Terry to a, I think I was, I think you're right. I was already on the play there. It was before I found out about the play. Yeah. That we interviewed him. Yeah. And yeah, I think it's, look, everything happens for a reason. In my, in my, the universe is working in my favor. It's leading to me to the like happiest version of myself. So it had to be, and Josh was truly lovely. Oh, amazing. Yes. And very smart, and said some really good things. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, hope you guys enjoy. Okay. See you next breakdown. Bye. That's funny. If we ever have good news, they're gonna be like, no. What is this podcast? No, here for the breakdown. No. Hello. Hey, SPODIES. Hey SPODIES. It's a new term that we just coined, uh, with our new guest, Josh Brown. He's a writer, a story editor, and an improviser. Hello. Hello and welcome for coming on. Happy to be here. I'm really excited to hear about all the things, but especially your improviser because I quantify myself as a failed improviser. That's how we met. That's what I meant. Failing and improv. Yeah. Okay. I mean, this ties into like my whole creative spiritual journey because I feel like I walked away from improv at a certain point and I'm, I'm, I'm like on the. I'm, I'm, I'm doing it again as like a, like, get back in touch with like, things that make me joyful and playful. Oh yeah. Cool. Okay. Okay. Okay. I love this. Are you a part of a UCB Groundlings? Like what's your, what's your I've mostly done UCB stuff, but I really like out here there's this little theater, there's, there's a bunch of little theaters that popped up in COVID when like everything big closed. Mm-hmm. Usually be lost A big sunset place. Right. And I think it's up in New York too. Like a bunch of big theaters got smaller and now there's a bunch of little theaters that are really cool. And I feel like being part of them, you feel like you like, aren't necessarily part of as such a big entity. Mm-hmm. And so you maybe, you know, it's, it's very, it's nice to be part of like a smaller, intimate kind of thing. And so I like this, um, newish, uh, improv. Studio theater, uh, called OUIs, which is World's Greatest Improv School. Oh, okay. Okay. I love that. Yeah, I mean, I did like, there's kind of a no brainer feeling then when you are doing improv and it works. Like I have not been able to capture that since leaving improv, but unfortunately, it just, unfortunately for me, it failed so frequently for us. That's so funny. I, I didn't think we were that bad, but I also don't think I was, I think I was just happy to be part of the group. You were, you're just happy be there in the group. I really appreciated that. And I was like, why can't I be more like Olivia? And just be like, happy to be here. And then we'd just go on stage and eat it just like over and over again. It's just like, oh, it's, it just, oh yeah. Having a good show. I feel like I'm unstoppable. I can do anything in the world. And having a bad show, I'm like, why did I ever think the hubris, why did I think I could do this? You know? It's like in the highs and lows that are like worse than anything else. I think maybe stand, I, I don't do standup. Did you stand up? I, I've never, like, I tried like a year of open mics. Okay, okay. And it did not like something about like, I like being like another person. Mm-hmm. I like being a weird cartoon character, uh, on stage. But I don't like just being like, here's what's the deal with my wife. No, I, I agree. I think there's something. You did stand up, vulner. I did stand up. You did nudity. Stand up. I did nudity. Stand up for those who don't know. Yeah, I did. Didn't once. Uh. It was, it was great. I don't think I'd ever do it again. Not the, the, the nudity part. The nudity part doesn't bother me. It was really the standup part. And I think you almost have to have like a certain personality. Yeah. Or, or cultivate or, or, yeah. Or you have to like have, I don't know. Yeah. I think you either like it or you don't kind of a thing. Well, how does,'cause I know you've done a lot of clowning Yeah. Since then. Like how, how, where does that fit on the, like standup, improv, clowning spectrum? What, what does that activate for you? To me, standup on the total of, like, it was, it would be on the lowest. Same. Yeah. Yeah. Just for me, um, like what joy I get out of it. I had a lot of fun, but I felt like I went up and I had like, it was like a five minute bit and that's all I had. And it was a three night thing. And there were some people who were actual standup people who, they kind of changed it up every now and then. I was like, I got my monologue basically. Yep. Yep. Yeah. No, it's fine. I feel like clowning would be number one. And and clowning improvise is they're very, very similar. Well, do you feel like when you're clowning,'cause are you sometimes alone on stage as a clown? And do you feel like you are like a version of yourself? Like are you playing a sort of character, Olivia? Yeah, I think, I think there is, there's a part that you tap into that is you, that's why, that's what makes it, I think clowning is like tapping into a certain thing. Um, or version of you. When I first took a clown class, it was like finding your clown, like, what is your clown, like, kind of mischievous. Are they like joyful? Are they sad? Are they like, you know, so it's kind of fun, but. I think mine would be like always doing something wrong. I think that would be my problem. Yeah. Yeah. But But with a lot of enthusiasm too. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. Um, okay, so we've started this Yeah. Historically with three breaths or pulling a card or both. Hmm. Would you have a choice? I think I'm in a three breath mood. Okay. Let's, okay. Ready? Okay. I love breathing. Me too. You know what? A simple joy. Don't do it enough. Okay. That was nice. Yeah. Not true. All right, Josh, how do you feel after those? Three breaths, I think. Nice. I, you know, I was thinking about, um, on the way here, what was the thing you said? You, you say to Dion, ISIS before your shows, let, let me let go of like, needing this to go. Well, I stole it for Mary. Oh, okay. Yeah. I release and destroy my need to do this. Right. Yeah. Like I feel like I, even for something like that, like, you know, you feel like ego come in and like, I hope I sound cool on the podcast, you know, but you're like, like, like yeah. The whole thing we're talking about is at least my whole like, creative stuff that I wanna, I don't get into or whatever is like how to be authentic or whatever, and like, how includes being on a podcast, talking to friends, you know? Yeah. Like, yeah. I love that. And, and a breath feels like a good way to be present. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It helps just to kind of ground us, I've noticed. Mm-hmm. Just for me too.'cause if we come in and we're all excited, you know, Ooh, guest in a podcast and it. Just kind was like, okay. Yeah. You can even hear the difference like in our voice. I was like, your voice. Hi. Now you're like, in here. Welcome back. SPODIES. Yeah, SPODIES. Yeah. It's a great term. Listen, you gotta have something for the t-shirts. Yeah. So true. So true. That's why we, we, we have writers. You can just write it. Yeah. Write, write all our go. I'm happy to help. Don't charge us. Please get an invoice. Like, and 50 cents. Yeah. Um, okay, so let's start with your, let's start with your spiritual history, like where your background in spirituality. Yeah. So I think that, that the best place to start is I guess my childhood and yeah, like, um. Uh, my mom is Jewish, culturally. Okay. But not very religious. We would do like Hanukkah and that was pretty much it. Okay. Um, and then my dad is, is pretty devoutly Catholic. Mm. And that came into my life pretty early'cause I was going to Catholic school, I think like kindergarten through like second grade. Okay. I was gonna Catholic school, so I felt that pre, and we were, and I went to church my whole childhood. Oh, okay. Uh, my parents got divorced, so at a certain point it was every other weekend, every other Sunday. Oh, okay. I was going to church. Um, and so I think I, I, I, I felt very confused a lot of my childhood about my, like, what I believed in. And I, I was and am a very anxious person, so I think the, the like. Fear and guilt and shame of Catholicism was probably tough for me. Yeah. Though like, like you go into a church and there is um, a person being crucified on a thing a very realistically portrayed and then they're like teaching you in your little Catholic school classes. Like, hey, it was'cause he knew you were gonna sin you guys, you children, he knew you were gonna have bad thoughts and like not share with your, with your siblings and it's kinda your, and I was like, I little Josh is like, oh my god, oh my God. If I, if I like, like have a bad thought and then don't confess before I tell a priest I'll go to hell. Like very scary boogeyman as a little child, I feel sad for, for you. Yeah. And how long did that, I was gonna say boogeyman ideal last like Yeah. I probably had some sort of reckoning around high school where I was like, do I believe this? Mm-hmm. I mean. What's weird is that I think that there, that like, there was a certain point where I think I identified fully like atheist. I'm like, I don't know. The, the world as it presents itself isn't presenting, you know, evidence of, of this Catholic like, upbringing that I've had. But I think like, um, even well into my adulthood, I realized like I still had like a fear of hell. Mm-hmm. Even as I was like, yeah, I was like, like, like pH and my partner would be like, yeah, what do you believe in? I'd be like, well I don't, you know, I don't really believe in like the Catholic, you know, whatever ins and outs except for hell. Hell might be real. I might be going to hell yeah. Did not heaven. No. Whenever, like, because it's only the fear and anxiety that like, you know, and I've, I'm trying to challenge her. Hell, is it like the stereotypical like fire depths? Yeah. Like it's somehow you feel unimaginable pain forever'cause you like, just weren't quite nice enough to everyone all the time and it's like, it's very upsetting. That was very funny thing for me to imagine. So were you like allowed to ask questions to your parents about this stuff? Yeah, good question. I think that I, it never occurred to me really, you know what I mean? It was like, you, you're like, I think I was having these like huge big feelings about Catholicism and I never like, shared that with my dad, you know? It was just like, yeah, they, we went to school and they told us this is how it went down and this is what you gotta do and you have to do like your first confession and, and as a, like a whatever, 7-year-old and stuff. And I was just like, yeah, no, this is just, I'm just being told how the world works and has always worked and I have no questions about it. It's just a scary thing where you could go to hell pretty easily. Do you have siblings? I have two sisters, yeah. Okay. Do they feel like Yeah, I, we, we have not talked a lot about this. Interesting. Okay. So it's interesting. Yeah. Even as adults, you haven't really, not as much. Um, yeah. I don't think my, I actually, I couldn't speak for them. I don't think they would identify particularly strongly. Okay. Okay. You know, um. Was the divorce a big thing?'cause like Catholic church very against divorce, was that? Yeah. How old were you? I would've been seven or eight. Okay, okay. I can't, I remember there was something that was like, like, I don't remember where my parents landed on it, their divorce being officially recognized or whatever, but I know my dad, you know, like any hassle that that caused, he was like, come on guys. You know, like Yeah. Oh, in the church? Yeah. Yeah. I think it's that. Like you, you're, you can't get communion unless it's a recognized by the church if you get divorced. Yeah. Like, oh, like super, super Catholic. No, that's true. Yeah. That like tech technically you can only be married once if you're Catholic. Okay. Okay. Now I think the other side of this, the like really nice side of this is my dad, I think is like a very like, positive, um, portrayal of like a Catholic person. Mm-hmm. Like extremely so like he's a person I really admire. Yeah. And he's very much. Um, like a person who's like, uh, anytime the Vatican is doing stuff about telling people how to live mm-hmm. Like what sexuality can be like, he really strongly disagrees with that. Yes. He's more of like a Jesuit type Catholic who's like the everything that we're being taught is like if you have any privilege shared, if you have anything, be charitable. Yeah. You know, like, and just like our whole lives, I would see him anytime he saw someone like on the street, he would just stop and be like, Hey buddy, can I give you some help? Can I give you some money? Like, truly, truly, I think like the best role model I could have had for, for anything like that. So like he, he's still like very Catholic and it's like a very sweet thing. Yeah. Um, that's the kind of Catholic I married. That's how my, yeah. Husband's very Catholic and it, and it feels like that. There was even, like, there was a point where, um, we had moved and we were just going to the nearest Catholic church. Mm-hmm. That was just like down the street.'cause Okay. We're in this new neighborhood and we went there for like a, I don't know, a couple years. Few years. And then there was one day where like a, I don't know, like an archbishop or something was giving like a guest sermon. Mm-hmm. And it started getting into all this like, really awful, like homophobic stuff, all sorts of stuff. And my dad had us get up out of the pews and walk out and we never went back to that church. Heck yeah. Love that. Yeah. And then we went, yeah, went on like a, like we, he did like kind of a wanderlust, like let's try a different church every, every Sunday thing. And we found this really cool, really like, Jesuit really like cool charitable minded church that like, um, is still the kind of church that he goes to now. Got it, got it. Cool. That's amazing. Cool. So now you don't call yourself an atheist anymore. Yeah. What do you, what would you call, what would you say now? Yeah, yeah. Really narrowing down or pinpointing my beliefs. I, I would say I don't believe. In any like, uh, interventionalist forces. Okay. I don't know that I believe any, like, anything that if there is any kind of higher power or like bigger thing. Okay. Okay. Making us all be here. I don't believe that my behavior can influence something that big to, to give me outcomes I want, or like, I believe we're kind of on our own like here. Um, and that when you do find, like, like I found my partner Faron, and it feels like this once in a billion connection. I don't know that I feel like it's destiny so much as like a miracle in a world where, okay, like you're left, we're left in our own. It's, we have to find meaning kind of in our own decisions and connections. Okay. So you feel like the miracles are not governed by anything other than like chance? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And that's why it's like really precious what you find the people in your life that you like couldn't imagine your life without. Yeah, because like. Nothing was helping you and you did. And so you like, that's, that's like, like I, I, I'm not super religious, but I feel like there's something holy in like, finding these connections and finding meaning in a world that doesn't necessarily want to be giving you meaning. Are you someone that, like, do you believe in like signs, less on like a literal level and more on like I think we, we can get into in the creative talk of this is like, like, I really like the artist's way. I think you guys can talk about that a little bit with some people on here. Yeah. Yeah. I love the artist. I think there's a thing about like the artist way is something I tried to do like a couple times and stopped. Yeah. Um, and I didn't have an, I don't think I had a very open mind as I was doing it. I was like, oh, this little woo woo. This is a little, oh, there's like, yeah, keep yourself open to, you know, kind of like. Forces beyond you. And so I like would start, do a couple weeks, stop start, do a couple weeks, stop, and then was at a really low point. It was like, just, just do it and do it with an open mind. Okay. And I think there's something about like, I, I don't necessarily believe that literally I was more open to like forces beyond me, but I think I, I had a much better attitude of like, if I see a sign somewhere in the sense that like, I'm trying to, you know, like find my voice as a writer and it feels like, you know, I'm meeting people who seem like, that I'm having conversations with, and normally I would like be afraid and be like, oh, I won't reach out and ask that person for their phone number or try to connect or whatever. Mm-hmm. Um, I'm thinking specifically of like, I was doing way, we went to Comic-Con and I met like a comic book writer who I was like, oh, I really like you. And he was young and he's like, oh, I like your stuff. And I, I like normally would've been like too shy to be like, I'm in the industry too. Yeah. Yeah. But then I asked for hi and got his phone number. He is like, yeah, let's connect. Let's connect. And it like, I guess what I'm saying in terms of signs is like, I think I wasn't open. I think there's like a psychological component, right? That like if you, if you walk through life with an open mind, an open attitude, um, something inside of you is trying to tell you what you want and what, what's the most authentic thing to you. So I think there is something to be open to the signs from the universe, right? Whether that's like literal or that's like listening to a deep voice inside of yourself. Yeah. That really reminds me of like, we had Kate, when Kate was on here, she was, she said like, gut is God. Like that was kind of one of her beliefs. Yeah. And I think that's so true. Like you can have the blinders on and just not listen to what like your body say. Even just about like things that you should leave, people you shouldn't be with. The mind is, is so powerful that you can like shut down the feelings of knowing that something is not right for you. Yeah. Yeah. I think to me there's like, I'm not religious, but I think there's something very spiritual about my relationship to my art, my creativity, and I think like the goal. Of all of it is to try to be authentic to yourself. Yeah. And be authentic to the moment. And I think whether you're listening for signs outside of yourself or listening to your gut, I, I relate to that gut is God thing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because I think we're trying to all get to like, what's the real raw, vulnerable stuff going on with us? Right. It's almost kind similar to grants too, like in the sense that, there's no external force. It is, you are, you are constantly checking in with yourself and you Yeah. You are almost like not, you're giving your own, your, your own signs or your own your own wisdom. Like it's like you are your own well of mm-hmm. Of, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And some people would say that that is like divinely inspired. Right. And some people would say that that is just intrinsic to your own mind. That's really interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I like to think that I'm more open-minded to like other people see the world differently. Mm-hmm. And I think I used to have that like, you know, intellectual college kid is like, I used to be Catholic, and actually there's no God. And you know, being like, and if you believe something, like, I think I was more like a snobby jerk about it. But now I'm like, I truly don't Like, I feel like the world is more our, our our, we only have what we perceive and there's probably things beyond our perception that we will never comprehend. And who am I to say what people are right or wrong about? Yeah. You know? Yeah. Do you still believe in hell? Like, does that, does it give you like a twinge in your tummy when you think about that still? Or you feel like that's past Josh? It's, that used to be the thing that like, I'd be like, not think about and then out of the middle of nowhere, late at night, be like, what if the hell's real? And I'm going. And I'd feel like I'd, yeah, you were scarred, like you were actually scarred. I think I have a better relationship to my own anxiety now that I realized that. Like, anxiety tricks you into thinking that the thoughts you're having are about something real and concrete. Yes. You know, they're mean. Yes. Yeah. And so once you start to identify things as like anxious thoughts, like, like I, I have a lot of, even after all that, I have a lot of little ticks I do when I'm worried I'm gonna cause bad luck or something. Mm-hmm. You know, like if, if I Yeah. Like have a thought. Fictitious. Yeah. I have like little superstitions and I think that that is more anxiety the more I think about it. Okay. Especially What are some of your, can, can you tell us some of them it like, oh, I have a thought of like, what if something bad happens? And then I'm like, oh, what if I cause that? And if, and this is anxiety. Yeah. Like, I really think this is anxiety. And then, and like the weird like. You build your own internal logic of these things. And so it would be like, oh, I have to knock on wood, or that thing will happen. Oh, and then at a certain point it became okay, if I vividly imagine knocking on three distinct different wooden objects that will prevent, like, I don't know where that came. Right. That's anxiety. It's like you build this, like, it, it made some kind of weird internal sense to me, but like realizing that those are anxious thoughts that I will, that like if a bad See, knock on wood. Yeah, knock on wood. Or like imagine knocking on, um, God, that sounds wild, but like, um, it's knocking on a surreal, a cutting board, a wooden spatula and then a wooden knife block. Like Yeah. Like okay, there's three distinct things. Yeah. I think, I think I was probably in a kitchen when I was having whatever. No, like it's like Yeah. That kind of thing. It helps you say goodbye to that thought in a weird way. Right? Yeah. Where like it's, it's like doing harm to no one to have you like think those things and you're able to release that. Yeah. Be like that. Okay. Yeah. Have a negative thing. But I also think that there's like. When I've been really anxious about where's wood? I need to knock on a tree. That's anxiety. And I think that's anxiety. Yeah. A big part of my creative journey has been like, yeah, letting go of the voices of anxiety, perfectionism, and like Yeah. And trying and, and recognizing things is anxious thoughts. Like, oh, what if hell is real? Any one bad thing I've done will send me to hell. That is like, oh, you know what? That's anxiety. Yeah. Yeah. I, I try to say like, I'll have the middle of the night, like, what if someone's trying to break in? What if someone, what, what about my, like that? And I try to be like, that's your anxiety brain. That's your anxiety brain. But yeah, it's really like, oh man, that anxiety. I just had the thought while you're talking, like, are all artists anxious or are all people anxious? But artists are like more in touch with themselves to where we recognize and nod to that anxiety instead of like, I would face it more shoving it down. Yeah. I would think it's the latter. Like most people, or I feel like a lot of people are anxious. Yeah. Now, especially in this world we live in right now. Yeah. I, I feel like a lot of my friends would consider themselves anxious. Not everyone. Yeah. I don't think, not everyone, but then I think art in general, or creativity, you know, you're, you're looking within yourself. You're, you're expressing yourself. So it's going to, it's a mirror. So Yeah. That's what I think. Yeah. Maybe it's a necessary part. Anxiety, maybe we shouldn't be getting rid of it, you know? Well, it makes me think at some point for like people who've found their art.'cause I do believe, like in artist's way, she has this thing about how most people could probably be creative but didn't. Yes. Get like, as a kid we're sort like, what are you doing drawing? You should be an accountant. Not, probably not as a child, but you know, like some version of that. Like, that's not a real child. I my taxes, I my taxes little boy. Um, but then most people are talked out of that creative impulse. Yeah. And I think, uh, us as like now identifying as artists, we probably had some anxiety that, uh, something we expressed through art helped, it helped with us. Mm-hmm. And we were encouraged to keep doing it. Yeah. Yeah. It is interesting how like art pops up in people. Like, they like can't deny themselves. My mom was a piano player, is a piano player, but she like almost went to Julliard for a piano. I didn't know that. And then, yeah. And then didn't go and went on to be an accountant and like, didn't have any real art in her life. And this whole time I was like. Get a piano. Just get a piano. You know, like you would, you would love it. And she didn't do it. And then recently, this last year, she was like, I got a piano. Oh, Alea, yay. Yeah. It's like, you can't deny that's that part of yourself. Well, yeah, my, my oldest brother who is, you know, works in, I don't even know management of some, honestly, but he randomly, he'll be like, I'm writing a script. You know what I mean? And then like he will kind of shelf that and then he'll be like, I picked up a keyboard and I'm gonna like,'cause I don't think he recognizes it's what the artist way is saying. Like he people are artists and they kind of can't deny themselves it. Yeah. Yeah. But I've always thought, oh, I wish that more people would just embrace, embrace it. Right. Because I think. Denying yourself of it. Well, and in defensive that it's very hard. Like our society is not built around. Like Yeah. Like, unless you can make money off your art, you shouldn't, like, identify as an artist. Yeah. Yeah. And those are actually very like opposite impulses, trying to make money off of a thing and being creatively authentic. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, how does, uh, anxiety go along with improv for you? Like, oh, oh, yeah. You know what it really is, um, is that I think my worst impulses as a writer are perfectionism. Okay. Are like stopping to be like, is this good? Is this anything? And what I really like about improv, especially this like second phase of my improv life, where like, I did it for a while in New York, came out to LA, didn't really find my improv people. Mm-hmm. Stopped doing it for years and years, and now I'm coming back to it and I feel like. It encourages you to let go of mistakes. Yeah. You know, like both in the sense that like if you start a scene and you think it's going one way and, and your teen parent gives you something totally different and you, and you feel that thing of like, wait, I shift and now it's this, this thing I didn't expect, and it goes great. That's a great feeling. Yeah. Yeah. But also in the sense of like, that was a bad scene and that's fine. Yeah, yeah. You know, like I have this general feeling that I'm like, gradually, I like to say this thing, progress is a jagged line. I'm sure I stole that from something somewhere, but like you're always like going up and down. I love that. But generally going forward. Okay, I like that. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel that with improv where it's like that, you know, I had a, I had a class today. I had two bad scenes and one good scene. And I feel overall better at improv. Yeah. You know, but like, I'm not, like with writing, I'll have days where I'm like, I wrote a bad scene, it's'cause I'm bad. What? So was leaving improv like a conscious decision? Like you were like, I am now leaving this, or it was just like, I'm not finding my people, I'm just gonna put this on hold for a while. Yeah. I didn't mean for it to happen. Okay. It was like, I was, I was, I did a bunch of classes in New York and was on some teams and stuff. Mm-hmm. Um, and then came out to LA and try, I remember trying to sort of like find my people and like doing little classes here and there, but just, it didn't really click. And then at some point, me and my partner, Faron, we, like, we'd both had the same thing. Had done improv Really? Before we met separately in New York. Yeah.'cause Faron, I remember, I knew this about Faron, that she like went to college. She was like, yes. In improv. Like she thought that was Yeah. Yeah. She was just talking. I mean, this is more for her episode, but she, yeah, I was gonna say, but it was really, it was really meaningful for her that she like. Um, ended up on her college improv team. But yeah, so we, I think both similarly had like done improv, then moved to LA mm-hmm. It just like, wasn't really part of our lives anymore. And then we both were like, what if we just did a 1 0 1 class together? Okay. And we just had a, and we were just gonna do that. We were just gonna do 1 0 1, like beginner baby improv. And they were like, what? We did 2 0 1, what if we did 3 0 1? Yeah. And then we did the whole curriculum again, the four like basic classes you take. And then, um, I really like got the bug and just kept, kept going. And I'm on two teams now. How many teams are you on? Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Has it been different, like coming back to it? Like have you noticed any change in yourself from when you were doing it? Yeah, I think the big thing is like that. Like being a, like college grad young, like person who like had, was wanted to make it in the industry and was like, oh, Amy P came from UCPI could be the next Amy p, um, or whatever. It was like, felt really like high-strung with my improv, but like, this needs to go well so I can establish a career somehow. Yeah. Through improv. Like a thing that doesn't really, people like maybe get better at being a comedian or a writer or whatever. Yeah. But I don't think there's like a huge pipeline of improv to famous person, um, thing that exists. But like, I think I had that pressure and it was like competitive in my classes. I'm like, oh, this guy's better than me. What am I gonna do? Yeah. Um, and now I feel like it's like, oh, this was like, I, I've done entertainment stuff. None of it was improv related or like benefit. Like this is just purely a fun thing. And I've realized it's just a, it's like a purely for fun thing in my world where it doesn't have any of that pressure. I imagine improv is better. When you do just kind of go in and just have fun. All it is, yeah. I think it all is right. Like we talk about that all the time. Yeah. It's like the childlike fun is what makes it good. Yeah.'cause once you lose that, why are you doing it? Yeah. Yeah. I now I'm like, can I take this improv mindset into my writing? Yes. Where I, like, I try stuff out. I, I like, well, let's write a scene. If it's bad, it's bad, uhhuh, then write another one. That's what you do in improv. You're like, you do a scene and if it doesn't work, you kind of ask yourself, why didn't that work? Oh, that's okay. Maybe I'll try something different next time. Yeah. Um, but you don't like treat each scene as like a black mark on your permanent record. Totally. And I wanna do that more in my writing of like, okay, tried something didn't work. Let's be playful, let's keep trying stuff. You know? Have you been able to sort of incorporate that so far? I think so. I think like I'm, I'm letting go of perfectionism. I'm like. I think my worst impulses as a writer are like to try to get to, I guess, what is it, left brain, you're like your thinky logical brain. Be like, I'll write the cleverest little clever thing that will prove to everyone I'm super clever and they're like the best stuff I write. And like the best stuff I do in improv is like, I had a weird, funny impulse. I had a weird emotional thing. Yeah. Falling emotion rather than Oh, okay. You know, like logic rewrite with your logical, some smarty pants brain. But like, if you wanna write something fun that surprises yourself mm-hmm. Like, just like follow a big emotion that you're really feeling. Yeah. And don't stop, don't stop to question it. That was like the big thing. Okay. Killing my vibe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's so hard to get it back. I'm sure once it's gone, once you're in your head. Yeah. It's the same as being on stage, doing improv. Once you're in your head and you're like, wait, what should I be doing? Like, should I, should I, am I the weird one? Are they the way, am I, you know, like once you start doing that in improv scene, you've lost it. But if you're just like, in care, like, I love scenes where I don't really know what the, the game is, but I just like know I have a weird, big physical character, Uhhuh. I'm just like, I'm imagine you very physical. I love like, starting with like, Ooh, I have a little tension in my shoulder. Let's be, oh, okay. Maybe I'm, I'm this weird old hunched over guy. You know, like, and just letting that your shows. It's bus go. Really fun. What's the name of your, where your teams Okay. Uh, my two teams are Crop Top Prenup. Okay. I love that. Crop Top Prenup. And Midnight Diner. Ooh, midnight Diner. Find both on Instagram. Early plug, early plug. I love that. Check out the Instagrams. We'll, yeah. Um, so you mentioned earlier that right before you did the artist's way, you had a really low point. Yeah. What was that about? Yeah, so I, like, I had finally sort of broken in after, like, trying to be a writer for a long time. Yeah. And I got my first like, steady gig on a Nickelodeon show and, and it was all going well. Good. Really good show. Like with good when, I mean, good show, I mean like good people treating us well. Yeah. Letting us be fun and funny and weird. Um, and I was having a great time writing episodes for that show, but then when I would go to go write my own stuff, I was super blocked. Mm. I was super self-conscious and like asking myself questions like I think I had too much of the business. Poison my brain of like, sit down and write something and be like, well, this sort of is, is this right for this demographic? Is this right for this thing? You know, like trying to sell it. Yeah. What kind of Yeah, just the like, well, will this sell? Will this sell? Which like, is like a nightmare for a project if you do that before, it's like, in any shape whatsoever. So I was just like, and for like a year or two, I felt like happy with my work writing and very, very unhappy with my Josh writing. Okay. And, and multiple times sort of started artist's way and was like, it's too woo woo. It's too, it's too, you know, and then like, was like realized I had,'cause it's like a 12 week thing, you did these like 12 weeks of exercises and stuff. Um, and I think my attitude had been like, well, I, I can't afford to lose 12 weeks. Not, I should just be writing, I shouldn't be doing these exercises. Okay. And then like 12 weeks had gone by since I'd given up the last time. Mm-hmm. I had no good new writing to show for it. Yeah. And I was like, oh, so what would've happened if I'd just done it? Yeah. I would have. It, it didn't mean I had more writing'cause I skipped out on doing this. I'm just still blocked and it's been 12 weeks, so why don't we try it 12 weeks where I do it? Yeah. Okay. You know, and with an open mind of like, she talks about this stuff of, you can call it God or you can call it like Yeah, yeah. A larger creative force that like wants to flow through you. Is that kind of what you would say resonates the most? Yeah. I like, I also really like, like Big Magic. Elizabeth Gilbert has this book. Yes. Yeah. That's like, I never read that. Oh yeah. It's good. Yeah, it's good. It's, it's, it's kind of like it's artist way adjacent. Okay. But it's not a workshop. So if you just want to like, you don't have to do for 12 weeks. Got it. Which is nice. Um, but she has this idea of like, um, yeah. That, that your creativity is something you can't like force and control. It's something that like you can allow space for, which I fully agree with. Like, I don't necessarily believe it's because of like an external force, but I think it's how like your brain works and you can know what's like a good strategic career move and be like, if I had a writing sample that was, you know, a perfect, you know, multi-cam sitcom, but you can't sit down and then like make your creative side care. Yeah. Your creative side like doesn't do things'cause they're strategic and smart or whatever. Yeah. You have to just follow the like weird impulses and feelings and you know, like if you get stuck on a character and you wanna write a thing about them, follow that. Yeah. It's like very much my like creative journey is about like listening to my impulses, not questioning them, not stopping and being a perfectionist and just vibing out. But I was, I was very much in that perfectionism spiral for a while there. So after you finished the artist's way. Were you then able to, return to your work? Like how did it, did you feel the immediate effects on it? It was just sort of a gradual thing where eventually you were like, oh, I'm not stuck anymore with this. Yeah. Like I, I definitely still have periods of stuckness. Mm-hmm. But it was pretty immediate where when I started doing it with an open mind that I would have these like very emotional, like, you know, morning pages sessions and be like, oh, I haven't felt like a connection. My, you know, like, my creativity. Like it's, it's like I could, I could tell that I was like getting back in touch with my like, emotional side. And it's crazy that I wasn't like that. I didn't think that was like the whole point. Yeah. For a while. That was the key, like yeah. The key for the lock. Uh, like do you, would you say you have easy access to your emotions? Was that something like growing up that Yeah, good question. I don't feel like, I think in the, in the divorce of it all and stuff, I think we were, we were, all my parents and my siblings and I were all just kind of going through our own things. Yeah. And I don't think I really had a lot of like. Like, I didn't know how to name my emotions. I don't think I, yeah, I think I was very much lost and in the dark mm-hmm. For a long time with what my relationship to my emotions were. And then, oh, yeah. I guess related to my whole artist journey, I like got into theater. Mm-hmm. And that was like acting. Yeah. Oh yeah. I really was like going full acting really? For, for a long time. Oh yeah. Like, as a, as a like fourth grader. I like did a, we, we moved and we were near, uh, the Jewish Community Center. This is my Catholic dad, but he's like, anywhere that'll take you in the summer. Yeah. Like, you, like I, I I have to work, go somewhere. Yeah. Um, and I did. I did a couple plays. The first one was like, was like Harry Potter three, and I was Neville and my dad's like, Hey, it's okay. You're not meant to be an actor. That's fine. Oh my gosh, no. And then we did, uh, Midsummer Night's Dream like that following summer, and I was Oberon Nice. And it was something about like giving permission to be like this big character. Yeah. And my dad was like, oh my God, you're like, like you, you, you're really usually a quiet, weird kid. And you were really into that and like, and, and really like taking up space on stage. And I think I thought that it was on Yeah. That I was like, yeah, that I was. He's like, whoa, you were, you were the big guy and all the scenes, which is so not you at all. And so I went full on into acting and in Denver, um, there's, uh, like a magnet arts public school. Mm-hmm. Oh, okay. Um, called Denver School of the Arts, and I made it my mission. It's a, it's a sixth through 12. Okay. And, and my sister was going there for creative writing. Oh. My older sister. And I was like, I have to go to the acting fame school. Wow. And that was like my whole purpose as a child. And I didn't get in as a sixth grader when I auditioned. And so I auditioned as a seventh grader and didn't get in, didn't get in as an eighth grader, didn't get in as a ninth grader, and then auditioned like for the last time at the end of my rope as a 10th grader. I remember they said to me, um, when I walked in like, oh, five times auditioning. I think that's a record. And I wasn't joking. I I just said to them, you said that last year. Like she's really like, like I was, I was, I think that was finally the year. I didn't care if I got in or not. Yeah. And then I did get in. Yeah. Wow. Wow. Yeah. And then got to go to like, acting school as a high schooler for those last three years of school. Wow. And then went to school in college for, for acting. You did, where did you, so you went school to uh, NYU? Yeah, I went to NYU. Oh, okay. What, which studio Playwrights rise? I was, um, Atlantic. Oh my God. Yeah. Wait, how did it take us so long to get, that's crazy. When did you graduate? Uh, 2014. Okay. 2010 I graduated. Yeah. So, yeah. Okay. Shifts in the night you were coming in? Yeah. Whoa. Wow. Oh my God. But I didn't graduate as an actor. I did two years as, and, and, and I started to do writing stuff. Okay. In high school we did this really cool project that's based on, um, the neo futurist in Chicago. Too much light makes the baby go blind, which is like They do, I know that They do, what is it? It's 30 plays in 60 minutes. Okay. Wow. Um, like, and they're all short. Some of them are very funny. Some of them are like really emotional, you know, and they're all like, two minutes. That's fun. And we would do that as our junior year project as actors. Okay. And so we all wrote a bunch of plays and I ended up writing like five of my classes, 30 plays. And it was just like, oh, I really like this. This is okay. Like I, I had never had permission to write a thing before and I really liked it. Oh, so almost like you. Writing through theater a hundred percent. Like it would not have happened. Wow. If I hadn't done theater. My mother saw that You went to nyu. Did Faren go to nyu? No, uh, Penn. Okay. And not for, I think she went for classics and then Oh. Really? Found art and all that. More so out here. Wow. Okay. So your junior year you did this writing, so did you like drop out of the acting program or were you So junior year of high school was this Oh, was, oh, so I, because you, yeah, sorry. Confusing timeline, but, um, yeah, so I'm starting to do writing stuff, but I'm still, I'm an actor. Right. But I'm an actor who writes, you know, whatever, like, and I wrote my, we would do directing projects as part of that. Um, so when I was a senior in high school, I directed my own one act play. And that was like a very, like, yeah. It like really did something for me. And there was, there's this theater called Curious, or still is in Denver, that uh, probably still does this thing called Curious New Voices, where they have like. Middle and high schoolers like do playwriting over the summer and then they have their like real theater company of actors stage them. That is so cool. I love that. That was really empowering for me as like a kid finding his voice. Yeah. Because then you get to see it like kind of your dreams kind of come true a little bit. You know, you get to see this like professional version as a kid. Yeah. Wow. The first reading I ever did, I was like, wow, this is way worse than I thought it was gonna be. And it was like devastating. But it like probably taught me like a like,'cause then I rewrote that play from page, but I, I was already locked in to do it as my like senior play. Oh, okay. Okay. And I was like, oh no, my play's bad. But then I discovered like, rewriting through that process. Okay.'cause I was like, oh, that was bad. And then I rewrote it from page one and like was more authentic with it and like, listened to myself more and like really liked how it turned out. As a, as a like final one act. Mm-hmm. But, so that was like, that was me in high school, right? I'm like, I'm going to NYU, I'm gonna be this big time actor. And then I get out there and I'm like, oh, I don't think I like acting as much as like some of my classmates who are really good. And it comes really naturally. And, and suddenly I'm in this city that's like a lot bigger than Denver. There's a lot more actors in this town. It like, it feels like a lot more. Yeah. Like, uh, scary. Yeah. You know, and I don't think I have that like, one in a million passion for acting that you need to kind of like survive. Authentic was a hard studio too. Yes. Their whole thing was like, no bullshit. We're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna break you down, build you back up. Like, yeah. David Mamet like built the curriculum or whatever Okay. Kind of thing. Which I, I kinda liked on some level'cause I, again, I was just like, not very woo woo. Like, acting doesn't need to have any emotion. It's just about like Yeah. You know, being real man or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Each studio, for those of you who don't know, it's, it's, it is like a little Harry Potter ish. Like, it's like sorting hat you get. Okay, I didn't know that. Yeah. Into, based on your audition, you get sorted into different studios. So at, when I went there, there was play its horizons, which is like, I know I got placed there'cause I had never done theater before., I was a gymnast for like 13 years. I took acting class on the side to like not be so socially weird. But that was the only thing I loved. So. They have you doing player's horizons. They have like, we had to do try lighting, we had to try sound, we had to try directing, but like, I was like in the acting track. Mm-hmm. Okay. But then they have Atlantic, which is like, I would almost call it the old school acting. It was like a response. Are they the Raven class? I think they very much like saw themselves in opposition to like method acting like they're like, you don't believe you are the character. Yeah. You don't have to pretend to be that character when the, you know, whatever, when they roll, cut. But you need to be yourself authentically in this like mm-hmm. In, in a way where you, you like give yourself a as if that's similar to what your character's going through. You don't have to believe you're the character, but if you authentically fight for something you care about saying the character's lines, it will give the audience. The illusion that you're the character. So it's more like intellectual. Very. Right. Which was very appealing to me. Ah, yeah. As like a That makes sense is why they like played you where like Yeah. As someone who's like, you can think your way into being a good actor, Uhhuh, you know, I, I, I think they have a good, like, methodology. I don't mean to knock that, but I was like, um, like not doing well in my scenes and struggling and like, and trying to white knuckle it, you know? Yeah. And trying to push through. And the thing that was coming more easily was like writing, which is like a fun thing on the side. Yeah. Um, and I switched to playwriting by my junior year of college. Okay. And it felt in like the dramatic writing program. Yeah. Dramatic writing. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And even though like I was still on my journey to, like finding TV writing, which hadn't even occurred to me'cause I'd been surrounded by theater that this whole time. Mm-hmm. Um, it felt like a better fit than the acting was feeling. Yeah. Was it like a big thing to leave? Did it feel like a big, scary, sad thing to. It was devastating. It was like, like to, to realize that there was a p there was like a day, I remember when I was a sophomore, where I just felt like my world was like crumbling where I was realize, because I had been since I was like nine, determined to be a professional actor. Yeah. Yeah. And then here I am at like age, like 19 and realizing I'd built my identity around being an actor. Yeah. Yes. Oh my God. And it felt like my world was like falling apart and I like asked to talk to the counselors and stuff. I was like feeling really, really low. And it was like realizing that I still did wanna do something creative and it was writing. Yeah. Um, were, did you have like a mentor there that you were able to be like, Hey, should I actually leave this or not? What was the discovery of you being like, I should leave this? Was there a moment? I think, I mean, if I'm being really honest, I think what was going on is I was feeling low in acting. And I was like, I had done a couple like playwriting contests and stuff and like gotten into things and had plays prettiest places. And I think honestly there was some element of like, well, this other thing isn't going well, but this thing, people seem to like me. You know, people seem to be, you know, happy to have me here. Right, right. And I felt very welcomed in like spaces with writers. I did this thing called, was it Young Playwrights? Where like a bunch of college age kids all get readings of their plays. Nice. And they were so welcoming and so warm and so like supportive of us as writers. And um, I think I was probably missing that energy in my life. And so it felt like the siren song of being around writers was really strong at that point. Yeah. But it sounds like it was still a hard decision to really, really hard, really felt like I was failing and giving up on my Yeah, like my main thing. So then you applied to the dramatic writing program, right? Yeah. Didn't know if I'd get in, had to write samples and stuff, and I think I had a pretty eclectic mix of samples, like some plays and some sketches and stuff, and then got in. Mm-hmm. It was like, okay, I'm gonna be a playwright. Yeah. Which would also not turn out to be true. Uh, but it was like the only thing that I. I had only ever been around plays. Right. I didn't think about writing movies and TV shows and stuff. You're in theater, so Yeah. Yeah. But at the same time I was on my, like a college sketch team. Mm-hmm. And so I was writing these like weird, goofy, short comedy things. And I think there was a point, like right after I graduated college, I was doing improv. I was doing sketch, and I met a, a writer at Nickelodeon who was like, you know, this is a job. Mm. And something like clicked and, and my like,'cause I,'cause I tried also to be a very serious playwright who was gonna write like very serious plays about the issues of our times. And I had no opinions about the issues of our times or nothing like play worthy. But that's what the other people in my classes were writing. And when I'd read some stuff that was weird and funny and goofy, it would feel easy and good. Yeah. And when I would try to write like really serious stuff, it was like smashing my head against a brick wall over and over again. Yeah. It just like didn't feel right. And so, yeah, I guess like all of this was me getting closer and closer to. Realizing, oh, the stuff that feels it comes a little more easily and a little more naturally, it's okay. Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. Like it's like all kind of the same, of like you trusting your like the gut is God thing. Yeah. Like that feels right. Moving towards it. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I think it was gradually getting one step closer in a way. It was also nice timing because it feels like, even though it was obviously very sad and hard to like kind of say goodbye to a version of yourself, it was nice that it felt like you were already in transition to this new version that that's still gotta be creative and be fulfilled. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah.'cause it's like, it's like, well, I have to let go of my old dream, but maybe there's something more authentic about my new dream. Mm-hmm. So were you on Hammer Cats? Is that No, we, I was on a team called Team Canada and we were an independent sketch team that only existed when we were all there. Yeah. Okay. Oh my God, that's so crazy. I think about this a lot because. I don't know if he was still there. I had it. You remember writing the essay? Yes. NYU What's the essay? Writing The essay. They make you take it freshman year. And it's like NYU has like a, this is the way you're supposed to write an essay. It didn't go up. Just everyone takes it. Yeah. Everyone to take it. Yeah. I had a bad time with that class. Bad time with it. But the, but the, I think the second time you take it like two semesters, I think. Yes. The second semester I had this, this teacher named Rajiv Joseph, who is now a very famous player. Right? Yes. Yeah. Okay. And he was amazing. And he was like, I really connected with him. And he was like, I think he was kinda like, all right, listen, we gotta like do their format, but he was just really great. It was like, I, he really stood out to me as somebody who like really loved teaching was really,'cause I, I also felt like at n nyu some of the professors were like kind of trying to prove themselves a little bit like Yeah, yeah. There was a lot of like ego involved, like, I think. In the students and the teachers. I felt a lot of ego there. I found a really'cause of nyu. Yeah. I found pockets of like incredible people. But there were also some like, yeah. I mean, and privilege and things like, yeah. You know? Mm-hmm. But anyway, Rajeev Joseph now. Okay. So I'm a member of this company, little Fish Theater. We're doing one of his plays. It's opening in two weeks, king James. And I'm now, I'm a teaching artist at a like private arts education program in West Covina High School. They have like an afterschool program where kids like audition in and Oh, this whole thing. And one of the monologues I'm giving them is from a Rajiv Joseph play. Wow. Yeah. Just the success of it all. The success story of, yeah. And having it be a person who is so down to earth and like really just in touch with his art. Yeah. And not one of the professors like I'm sure you had, who were just like. Like, just like wanted to make you feel terrible for no reason. Like, I was like, yes, good people win. Yeah. You know, I had a similar thing where I think my first writing the essay teacher was like, you're not doing it right to our whole, and it seemed like mad at our class every session. And then our second one was like, man, writing's just, you know, it's all about just being, man, it's all about vibes. And I was like, this guy's cool. When you write now, do, you do serious in stuff anymore?'cause you said, you know, before, like back then, you know, have you sat down, wrote anything serious? It was like hitting your head against the wall. Yeah. Has that changed? Are you like, are you, you found your voice or? Yeah, it's, I think the way in for me is usually like comedy and goofy stuff. Yeah. But I'm like, I, I let myself be open to discovering like. There's more going on. Yeah. With, with a story and being like, oh, maybe this character's actually really sad. Or maybe this character. Yeah. Like, I think I want, when I like stuff, it's'cause it's, it portrays like a real sad, vulnerable world in a funny way. Yeah. I think that's like the voice I gravitate towards. But if something's just like a goofy, bizarre comedy and it's missing heart, it feels lacking for me. So I, those two things kind of go together. I know you write a lot of animation focused things, but for your own work, do you also write stuff that you imagine to be like live action or short stories or plays still? Yeah. This has been part of my sort of like, uh, artist sway journey. If like, like I think there was a point where I was like, okay, I only write preschool animated things. Mm-hmm. Because that's the only place I've ever like, been rewarded on a business level or whatever. And I did Artist's Way and then a friend was like, Hey, do you wanna do novel writing month with me? And that's like every November people try to write like a whole novel in a month. Wow, man. And I wrote like, yeah, I like should do that. I'm. After the wedding. Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. Right. I'm like, why did, why was there something this year that felt like it was in the way of that? Uh, but, uh, yeah, like I did that for the first time and like ended up writing like half of a kid's novel and, founded a really fulfilling experience and like, oh, you know, now I had always been like, well, I'm not that type of writer. No one's ever told me I'm that type of writer, but I'm trying to be more open to like, it's all writing man. And you don't need to be paid for a thing to, for you to be like, allowed to do it. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of people struggle with that. Like, you can't identify with something unless you are Yeah. Being rewarded as professional or someone says that is you did that. Yeah. It feels like there's authorities that decide who's allowed in or not. But then once you actually kind of break in, you realize that they're. There aren't. Yeah, they're also trying to figure it out. Yeah. No one actually, and nothing changes about you when you get your first gig, you think you're like, you think people are gonna show up at your door and give you like a certificate of being a valid artist or whatever. And then you still struggle to be to just to like write in the morning and to do your thing and you're like, oh no, the problems are coming from inside the house. Yeah. What was it like to get, like your first writing job? Yeah, first staff. Was it a staff writing position or, yeah. I started in the Nickelodeon writing program, so that was like a fellowship program and that probably was the biggest, felt like I had a stamp of approval and it's a really cool, good program where for a year they just like support you and teach you how to be an animation writer and, and network and, and do all sort sorts of different things. I think it was definitely like a, an ego boost, but then there's like a point where you, where that like wears off and you're like, oh, but I still dunno what my voice is. I still dunno like. Um, I actually think probably when I was in that program I was still feeling pretty high and then the more time went on and I, like that program ended and I didn't have anything lined up so I was pitching a lot and all sorts of stuff. That's probably when the voices of like, well you really need to write something that sells. Mm-hmm. Kind of crept in. Right. Yeah. And those flowers bloomed when I was like on that first staff gig. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, and when I was on that staff gig. Very scared. Even though lovely people. Yes, lovely room. But the fears that I'd had my whole life, the insecurities didn't go away. Like, am I good enough to be here? Yeah. The imposter syndrome. Yeah. Yeah. And operating from that place to make art, I think is hard. Like Jeff was saying that when he was on just like how, how in a writer's room, you can kind of get let go at any time. He felt like he was kind of constantly auditioning to still be in the room, which is just not a fun place to Yeah. I remember thinking like, oh, I don't even know if I'll get asked back on season two of this show. Yeah. And I did, and then I felt that way about season three and then I got promoted to story editor. So like, I think I was doing a lot better than I thought I was the whole time. Yeah, sounds like it. I was like, I'm on the razor's edge, you know, like, yeah. Lot of fear. Funny. Do you ever miss acting now? Yeah, I think improv, like scratches that itch, uh, in the right amount.'cause I really, I, I. I think that I like is that, I think I take for granted that I have a little bit of acting chops by improv standards. Yes. Yeah. Like that I can do a scene where I'm like really emotional and sad about something really stupid and goofy. Uhhuh and, and that's really fun and really satisfying. I have though, like lately been like, it would be kind of fun to take just a straight up acting class. Yeah. And, and do that without the pressure. I felt like as a high school, college kid. Yeah. Or kind of like how you reentered improv. Right. Like, I'm gonna do 1 0 1 for fun. Oh. And then 2 0 1 or Yeah. Yeah. It would be fun just to take a class and just like do scenes and monologues and be like, oh, this is about acting, not about trying to prove myself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe I'll go back to improv one day. I did love it. I really did love it, What's the place that you're in right now? CareerWise. Like, do you feel pretty stable? No. Okay. Um, it felt like it was going great for a while there. Um, and then like the industry has, like, yeah. What do they say? Compressed or condensed or, I dunno, it's like some horrible executive words blow up any moment. Well, it to, at least from like a. Animation standpoint, it feels like the collapse has happened. I don't know if a rebuilding will happen, but it feels like I was at a place where like, oh, as long as there are plenty of jobs and the industry is growing, I think there's a place for me. Right. And now it's like in a smaller world, I don't know, like I'm working on a scripted podcast right now that is really fun and exciting, but it's not like the TV work that I like, I, I'd gone from staff writer to head writer, um, and then there were no jobs at that studio anymore. Right, right. And yeah, so there is, there's a lot of, like, honestly, part of my journey has been like, can I separate my creative side from my, like needing to make money off of this side, like just in case it collapses kinda j just in case. And in terms of like, is this something, do I like writing in a way where even if I like. Fully had like a day job for the rest of my life. Mm. It would still be a meaningful thing in my life. Mm-hmm. I think that's been the journey of my like, last real question year. Yeah. And I think I do feel that way, that like, you feel that Yeah. That like if I could just write that little novel that I started like last November, um, while having uh, a hopefully not terrible day job or, or, or a somewhat meaningful day job like teaching or something like that. Yeah. You know, like, um, could I, could I do this? Even if it wasn't like, like my, like with acting. If it couldn't have been my job, I didn't wanna do it, and my identity collapsed. Yeah. And now I'm like, I think I like writing enough that even if it, it's not my job, I want it to be a part of my life. And you would still call yourself a writer? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So your identity doesn't feel as like, kind of wrapped up in it as Yeah. Acting. It's still, it would be great to, yeah. To have a big time writing job again, but, um, knocking on the wood. Yeah. The is, yeah. I, I dunno if I've said this already on the podcast, but do you know that the, like lore knocking on wood? No, it's that I, I did. I, okay. I'm curious. It's, it's, well, I've heard, and this is the one I was like, I'm sure there's a bunch of different, like re like lore. Folk tale of why, but that there are fairies that live in, in, in the trees, in the wood. And that when you say something where they're like, oh, knock on the wood. It's usually when you say something bad, oh, but like, that's not gonna happen. You know, you knock on the wood, it's waking them up and they wake up and they protect you. And they like, Ooh. Yeah. So that's, I, yeah. The most Olivia origin possible. But I love that. I really like, I like, it's nice to be like, wake up. So I'm waking up the, the fairies and my spoons. Yeah. When I'm not Yeah. And they're happy. They're happy. Help. Yeah. They were just sleeping, but they wanna, they didn't know anything was going on. They wanna help. I would not wanna help someone who just woke me up, but Yeah. But I think these, they're better than us. They're better than us. That's so funny. Are you worried about AI at all? Just for my own personal knowledge. Asking for a friend. I mean Yeah. But not just like, as a writer, like, like for the world. Yeah. I think like it just feels like another way that people who make the most money on the top can, can shrink the amount of jobs in, in the middle and Yeah. And for someone who's like, authenticity seems to be kind of your spirituality. Yeah. Yeah. I would say so. Uh, AI couldn't be farther from it. Yeah. anything generated based on like existing work is like really upsetting to me. Yeah. Like that is theft. So if people, yeah. If someone like made a whole show that was all AI written, it would be trained on other people's writing and they would not be compensated. Yeah. And that really upsets me as an artist. Yeah. That's the most, that's the most I'm, yeah. I feel pretty strongly anti anything like that, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's such a shame. I feel like our artist world is getting, I mean, I think there will be a renaissance, you know? For sure. That's what always happens. Like, you know, the world needs it. Artists come and we might, we might be in a AI bubble that's gonna pop. We might've hit the limit. I don't know. I'm not Mr. Silicon Valley, but I feel like actually like creative stuff is like the least replaceable. Yeah. Because you can, you can have AI that's like replaces the person who has to analyze spreadsheets and like data, right? And like research. But to have an original point of view, literally not a thing AI can do. It can so true. Match and copy something. Yeah. But yeah, take that. Take that. So do you have spiritual practices that you kind of go to now in your life? Yeah. Or, or not sp it doesn't have to be confused. Yeah. It's, it's like, it's, it's, they feel spiritual. Yeah. But like, it feels that counts, right. Because it's like my, my mental health practices. Yeah. Feel verys. But it's like, um, probably the biggest one is I do the morning pages. Oh, you still do it? Yeah. I stopped and realized, uh, every morning I'm, I, well actually I try to, every morning I'll have a better day, even if it's like a off, if it's a day off, it's still better to do for mental health reasons. And I, and I, I knock'em out real fast. I probably do'em in like 10 minutes. Do you type it or you write it? I, I, uh, write on my little, tablet thing that I have. So I hand write them digitally and I delete them as soon as they're done. Oh, you do? Yeah. So you never go back and write it? Yeah.'cause it, that makes me feel like I can write anything and without judgment and it's all my, it's, it's like trying to write my most anxious thoughts as quickly as possible. The first thing in the morning. Well, after, after an hour of gradually waking up. Yeah. And then I do. Um, and, and it, it's really helpful'cause I, I'll find I'm anxious about something in my life. I'm anxious about whatever I'm about to be writing and just voicing that. Mm-hmm. Like, like it feels like it expels it from my body and then it, it's like naming the thing. Yeah. Name it to tame it is a thing. Therapist told me. Yeah. Do you feel like it's the same thing you're writing most, like the same anxiety pops up for you? The most consistent one is like, the thing I'm gonna write today is gonna be bad. Yeah. You know, and like, oh, I don't know where it's going. And I left off on a not knowing, it's the perfectionist kind of voice of like, yeah, what if today it's bad. We should panic. We should, we should rethink this whole thing. We should panic. Yeah. But yeah, so like letting go of that before I start my day is like really helpful for me. I'm trying to remember'cause I did do the artist way and similar, like you, I did like. Started it stopped. Started. It stopped. And I forgot what point, um, I kept stopping, but, so I'm trying to remember all of the practices, but was there another one besides the morning journals?'cause that's the very first thing you do, right? Yeah. That's, you're supposed to be doing that the whole 12 weeks doing it every day. The whole 12 weeks. Yeah. That's a more, this is the most consistent thing because you did it. Did you do the whole thing? I did. I think I went to it again. I feel you're inspiring me to do Yeah. I think and I think like let it be like not take a lot of time. Yeah. Oh yeah. Let them be pages with big wide margins that you write big in and like uhhuh, you know, it's, yeah. It's about doing it more than like, like a small little notebook. Yeah. Yeah. Three sticky notes. Yeah. Um, the other thing I like from it that I haven't been as consistent about lately, but is the, the artist dates I that Yeah. That my favorite. Yeah. And if you guys are like, for your practice for, to try out for two weeks, like Yeah. I think an artist date is like doing something nice for yourself, Uh, you know, something that you, that like connects you with your playful side. Yeah. Or you're like, could be like going for a hike or like mm-hmm. Um, I did like going to last solo, right? Was Yeah. You have to do it solo. You can't sort of like, uh, parlay it into a date night or whatever. Like, you know what I mean? You'll be tempted to Oh, let's go for a hike. Yeah. But there's something about being alone and doing something just for you, you know, don't need to spend more than an hour. It can be like, like her examples in the book are like, go to like the 99 cents store and get random craft supplies and then craft something for like an hour. Yeah. Like it shouldn't take up, uh, so much of your time, your week that Yeah. You feel like you can't do it. I love idea. Yeah. Yeah. We should take that. Yeah. Would we do two or one or to say one, one a week, two weeks. One a week? Yeah. Okay. Great. Let's challenge ourselves. Okay. Let's, let's aim for, let's aim for two. Two, yeah. Okay. Yeah. I love that. I, I'm excited. Yeah. And it can be a lot of different things. Like I did like, uh, took some watercolors to the park and painted a, the creek, you know, and that was like, oh, this is very nice. You know? Um, so just anything that you feel like you've carved out an hour of like something that's meaningful to you. Yeah. But, but nice and easy. It should feel like fun. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, well, is there anything you'd like to plug? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I have my two improv teams. Yes. Yep. Yes. Crop Top Prenup Improv. And then Midnight Diner Comedy. And we'll tag it in the show notes. Yeah, we'll definitely do that. Thank you so much for being happy Beer. Thanks for having me. Wonderful. So delightful. Yes. Well, this has been SPODA Live well and stay sane. Woo. We flipped it. Bye, SPODIES!