Sarah Lindsley: Burlesque Dancer, Costume Designer, Artist, Spiritual Re-Finder

In a fun and sing-songy intro, Olivia and Ari discuss Faryn's spiritual practice of the zoom out/zoom in meditation. Then they get into a discussion about why typically more women are into manifestation than men, Olivia's recent callback experience, and Ari's unblocking work.

Our interview is with the multi-talented Sarah Lindsley who found, lost, and re-found a renewed sense of their spirituality. Sarah talks about growing up being very involved in the church, how the 2016 election affected their beliefs, and how they've connected the dots between spirituality, sexuality and creativity and how each is informed by the other.

Follow Sarah @xoxo.ferale.fatale and @party.city.skeleton

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Transcript

0:12

Hello? Hello? Hello? Hello, hello, hello. I'm so into this. Hello, my little SPODIES. Welcome to our podcast. We are the spiritual PO prac. Oh God. No, you were too into it I was vibing onto that. I was, do it. I was vibing. So jazzy. Um, hello everyone. Hello. Hello. Uh, and welcome to Spiritual Practices of the Disgruntled Artist, where we interview a new artist each episode to learn how they are keeping themselves sane and spiritually healthy during this epically challenging time to be an artist. Yes. And then the beginning of each episode, first we have a song, uh, written at the moment Yes. By Olivia Spirz. And then we talk about, um, the spiritual practice that we took from the last guest, which we incorporated into our lives for two weeks. Mm-hmm. And our last guest was Faryn, who's getting married on Saturday. Saturday, yes. So after, like two days ago from, she should be married, Josh and Mar maybe, I don't know. What if there's some sort of like leave at the altar, I mean, we don't wish that on her. No. Or him. No, no, no. That's gonna be great. I'm so excited. But I kind of secretly really wanna be at a wedding where somebody leaves someone at the alt two just to see what, what, what would I do? Do they, I don't think they do that anymore. I don't, I don't do the, I can't remember the last time I went to a wedding that they have. Like if anyone here Oh yes. Says, you know. Right. I don't think they do that, but I think people are like, oh, I'm done. I can't do it. That would be so juicy. Oh yeah. I would love to, I would, I would hope it's like, you know, like. Um, a wedding that's like my cousin, they're three times removed. Yeah. We don't wanna like, I don't wanna know them. I don't wanna know them, but I do wanna see it. I want, I do, I do wanna see it. Just to see. Yeah. I feel like I would be, so I'd be try to fix it too hard. Like, I'd be like weeping, you know what I mean? I'd be like, not even know these people. I'd be extra about it. I could tell. So don't invite me to your wedding on leaving. If you, if you think you're. Be a runaway bride. It's a possibility. But when you, well,'cause you guys got hitched in Vegas. Yep. So there was no option for someone to be like, do you really wanna go through with this? Right. Unless the two kids, two, only two of the three were there. Unless for some reason they decided to be like, to be like, yeah. But then did, did either of them pull you aside and say like, Hey, do you actually wanna do this? No. Okay. Because my sister did. Really? Yeah, she was like, before I walked down the aisle, I think I had to pee right before the, right before walking down the aisle. Yeah. I don't know if it was right before, but it was pretty much, it was close to right before, and she was like, if you don't wanna do this, we don't have to do this. I just wanna let you know. That was, that's a good sister. Just like, hey, just, just in case. I was like, oh, I'm fine. Yeah, she was, she was testing you. She's testing. Ooh, I passed it. You passed. Um, anyway, Faryn soon to be Josh, Mrs. Josh and Mr. Faryn. Um, yeah. Her practice was the zoom out meditation technique. Mm-hmm. Where during your meditation, you would imagine yourself. I actually did this with breath, which I thought was helpful. Did you do Tua? Yes. Did. Did you do Tua? Is what I just said. Do what? At my words. Did you do Tua? Tua. I did Tua. Okay. You did Tua? Yes. You did. Tua. Where? I was like a breath. I'm seeing myself. Another breath. I'm seeing my apartment, like who's in my apartment. Oh, another breath. I'm seeing my apartment complex. Another breath. I'm seeing the city of Los Angeles. Then I'm seeing the state of California. Then I'm seeing the country, then I'm seeing the world. And for me, what I liked was when I was seeing these places, I would have little hearts in my mind around like people that I love, like on, you know, in different places of California, oh my God. And different places of the country and the world. Like Harriet, you know, in over England. Hi Harriet. Hi Harriet. You know, so, and then her also, part of her practice was like zooming back in. So I would do that. To the worldview. And then I would take another breath of like seeing the earth from the universe and I'd pause there and then I would go all with breath back to just the earth, back to just the world. Wow. Back to just the country, back to just California, back to Los Angeles, back to my apartment, back to me. Wow. And it was really interesting. I love that. Yeah. Uh, did you discover anything new that you haven't discovered in in previous meditations? Mm. That's a good question. I feel like it was very relaxing. Yeah. Like I remember at one point doing it and like falling asleep while doing it. Mm. And I think it was very useful in terms of what you're in need of, like if you go into a meditation feeling very ungrounded. I felt like it was very grounding. And it also I think did,'cause meditation for me can be very linked to like manifestation, I think. Yeah. And it can be very sort of. About me, you know? Mm-hmm. And this felt nice that it was, it was about like the world, and then I'm just a small piece in it. Yeah. Instead of it being like, I am the center of the world. Yeah. That makes me sound really horrible. No, no, no, no, no, no. I think, I think that's the point. For me, that was the point of the meditation. I felt like it was very much like, I can see it being helpful, especially if you're. Uh, upset about something and need, like outside perspective? Yes. Like the, you know, the, I, you know, we're just a small spec. There's mm-hmm. Larger things happening, kind of a thing that, that's what I took from it too, was like, well first of all, my breath thing was very different. Oh, what was your breath thing? Okay. So I realized I couldn't start immediately. Mm. Okay. Okay. So because, because what I mean by I use my breath is literally, I, I noticed my breath and I don't even think I meant to do it at first, and then I realized I was doing it, was that my breath really slowed and it, and I like. It almost created like a buoyancy to my body. Whoa. Like, I feel like I needed a, the feeling of floating. Mm. Because my meditation was literally like the feeling of floating up. Ooh. So that's like light as a feather. Stiff as a board. Yes. I've never done that, actually. Oh, really? Yeah. I did it with my gymnastics friends. Didn't work. Well, I get, I mean, we were all light as a veteran and we were all stiff as. You know, we were gymnasts. I mean like, we were like stocky and small and very light. Oh my. You know, we were like boards on purpose. That's so funny. No curves at all. All, um, that also reminds me real quickly, I wanna go on tangent please. I watched the movie, the Craft for the Horses. No, can't Too Scary. Are you C Pissed? Oh really? Yes, they made, wait, is this the one with a goat? No. Oh, okay. The goat isn't there one with the goat where the ghost's, the devil. I actually did watch that in some, for some reason. Oh. Which I don't in do scary movies, but I knew that the goat was the devil way before it was like revealed, felt special. This was, um. I wanna say like in the nineties movie. Okay. Um, and it's about like witches basically. Mm-hmm. And I think they're like in high school. Hmm. Um, but the reason I say I'm pissed is like, at the end, I mean, of course it was like the nineties, they made it seem like most witches, except for like the except one. It was like actually like. Good. And I was like, mm. But they did, they did light it as a feather step as a board and like they did redo it, but she like legitimately was like floating. Yeah. And they were like, and actually they had some really cute moments. That's why I was like, oh, this movie is so cute. It's like these like women bonding over like. They, they found they were like fourth person for their coven Yeah. To like complete the circle. And they like, it was like them discovering their power and I was like, oh, this is so great. Yeah. And then it takes a turn and, oh, yeah. Yeah. But do you believe in ma, do you ever think that magic is real, like witchcraft? Do you think it's real? Want to? Yeah. I'm, I, I don't, I don't know if I would like put my, no, I don't know. I, I. I do, but I don't, I don't know. I think I need to meet a witch, you know? Yeah. If you're a witch, um, can you email us? Oh, I like your shirt. Very witchy shirt. Thank you. Um, email us or DM us or something. Yeah, come be on our podcast. Really? Yeah. I mean, technically I am in a coven. Well, coven. Yeah, I'm into a coven, but like very loosely casual. Very loosely. Yeah. I wanna come shout out to them. Um, what are they, do you have a coven name or are you not allowed to say? You know, the, the text is like called witchy bitches, so it's like, its very chill. Um, most of us are actually from, uh, the theater program in Redlands. Okay. Not everyone. Not everyone. And we actually haven't really been in contact for a while, but we would, we would. FaceTime mostly in the pandemic, I think, too. Yeah. And like we would like meditate together and do things. Oh, that's, and yeah. Yeah. And or just in, in random times. Uh, we'll just like. Someone will reach out to the chat and be like, Hey, could you use some extra magic? I'm, you know, that have a job interview or something. Like, it'd be like that. Well, we do that. Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna say,'cause me and my friend Glen are like co manifestors. Mm-hmm. And I was like, we should do that. But we did. We do. We are, because remember, we each picked the thing for the other person. So we are doing that. Yeah, exactly. So we are witches. Yeah, we're basically witches. Um, no. Yeah. But, uh, going back to the. Meditation. Oh, yes. Okay. It just felt like very much in my body. Mm. More than in any other meditations, which I really appreciated. Oh, cool. Yeah. Well, you continue doing it, do you think? Yeah, I think so. I think especially if I need to feel like it's okay. It's okay. It's okay. Yeah, that's okay. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like for some reason I feel like it would be very helpful before a big thing, like a big audition or a big performance or something to just be like, this is just one little blip in a, like I don't have to put all the pressure on this thing. Yeah. I had a fun thing happen to me, an audition. I don't think I got it. Okay. Um, but it was still really fun. Um, I had a callback. That's great. Two days ago, and uh, it was for a commercial, it was a Zoom call back. Mm-hmm. And I was in the waiting room and then all of a sudden it start pop up and I I had to like. Press the, make sure the audio is connected and all that. Mm-hmm. And as soon as I did that, I hear like, Hey Olivia, it's, I don't know if I wanna say his name, you know, but like, yeah. Uh, someone, someone I went to high school with and did multiple plays and used to hang out with, oh my gosh, he was a year above me. Gosh. And I was like, and he's casting now what? He was the director. Oh my gosh. Amazing. Yes. I love it. I was like, oh my God. It was, I haven't seen him in like so long. Um. And it's so funny because I definitely like, afterwards, I think this would've been a commercial that I would've been like, ah, fine, whatever. Mm-hmm. But then after I'm like, oh man, now I'm like psyching myself out.'cause I'm like, does this benefit me? Does it probably not? Like all these things I'm like, oh, and this was also someone who I looked up to. So I was like, did it make you more nervous or no? Did I think I was more, I was I in the moment, I think I did very good of like just being excited and going along with it.'cause it was just happening. Afterwards, I was like beating myself up, like, oh, you didn't do this? Oh, you were like the, I felt myself, like replaying it in my head. Oh, okay. That's way more than I would have if I, if it wasn't, it hadn't been him. Yeah. Um, but ultimately it was just more of like a, well look at that. Yeah. Like. Love the good moment. Yeah. I feel like that's gonna happen more and more. I feel like that's a good little morsel of like what it will be eventually. Yeah. Where it's gonna be. But I think, I mean, we've talked about it before, like auditioning for people that you know is very, it's, yeah. Although I'm trying to reframe it to be like, okay, like it,'cause this is just gonna happen. We have to be like, yeah. And I think I may, maybe I've jinxed it.'cause as soon as it was over, I was like, I probably didn't get it. Like, I immediately didn't like allow myself to like think about the possibility of getting it because I was already afraid that if I didn't get it or. You know, like the not getting it on top of it being someone I know and admired would've, you know what I mean? Like, and so listen, it definitely wasn't you. I'm sure you did a great job. Commercials, I feel like especially are so out of hand. Totally. The hands of the director. Oh, totally. I mean, the director like, ha like it's gonna be the whatever team. And also the role was also for, uh, I know. On the sides it said like Paul or slash Paulina. Okay. Yeah. So we don't even know it. Even so who knows? Who knows, who knows. But it was actually a really fun audition. I'm not just saying that, that's like, I was like, okay, good for him. Yeah, that's great. But it was good. It was okay. I love that. Um, yeah. That's great. Yeah. And you're going to the gym now? What kind of I've been going, uh, so we've been doing the. The, like a version of the hard 75. Have you heard this? Oh, I have because one of my podcast girls did that. Okay. 75 hard. We're not doing anything close to like the, the, the thing thing, the real thing. You and Grant are doing it or who's doing it. So we are doing it, we're doing our own own version. Our neighbors shout out Ben and Rachel. They are fan of the pod. Fan of the pod. Love it. We love to see it. They are doing, uh. Doing it as well. Um, I. They are doing the 75 days. We're only doing it to right before we go to New Zealand. Okay. So I think in total it's like 50 something days. Oh, cool. Uh, and, but we're not, like the original is like you have to do 2 45 minute workouts. Yep. Like one has to be outside. Yep. It's all these things. So we kind of just like, we're like ling as we do 1 45 minute workout, eight days, like for me, Uhhuh enough, um, no phones after nine. Oh, wow. Okay. Is a new one. That's good. Um. And two to three liters of water every day. Um, we've been trying to do meditations. I think we kind of dropped that, but, um, yeah, it's just, that's kind. Is that it? I think that's kind of it. Isn't it like you have to read a book? Isn't that part of it? Oh, yes. 10 minutes of reading or slash audiobook, which that for, I mean, kind of do that anyway, so that wasn't much. Yeah. Well a lot of this was kind of like, oh, we can already do, but it's nice to be like. Check it off. Yeah. Do you feel any difference and, um, a little bit, yeah. I've been, it's been nice. And, and we don't go to the gym every day. At least we do like a 45 minute walk or something. But it's just been nice. Awesome. It just feel like almost like little mini spiritual practices. Yeah. Like a lot of these. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It doesn't, it doesn't feel like a significant, like I'm sure if we did the actual 75 hard. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, this girl that I listened to her podcast, she was like, you know, sometimes it would be like, it's one in the morning and I have to chug another six glasses of water or whatever. And I was like, ah, it's like too much. I mean, water wouldn't be the hard part for me. No, honestly, I don't think, certainly not, I don't think any of it would be hard for you. I think the only other, the other thing, uh, that we added for ours is like, you're not supposed to do like. Sugar or alcohol. Oh. Um, but granted I don't drink much, but Yeah. Uh, the, um, for us it was, we didn't really focus on diet. We're not restricting ourselves good. Um, but we are, are restricting how many times we order in. Mm. Okay. What is it now? Just once a week. Okay. We can go out as much as we want. Okay. We can physically go somewhere. Okay. But it's the. Ordering in? Yeah. Being a little lazy. Oh my God, I can't imagine. I mean, just'cause my life is so different from your life. Like, I don't, I don't, I just, it is probably been years since I've like ordered in. Wow. I mean, we've like ordered pizza and gone to pick it up, but even that's like a whole kerfuffle, you know, I wouldn't even count because you went to go get it. That wouldn't count. I said that would be fine. No, no. Just a lot of cooking over here. Yeah, no, I mean. That's where we're eventually trying to get to. Although I'm getting really good at muffins. Oh my, I saw your muffin picture. I'm gonna give you some, I'm gonna give you a grand one. Oh, ha ha ha. Oh yeah. For all those who are listening. Yeah. Strawberry movement. I like it toasted with butter and honey. Mm-hmm. Oh, it's just delicious. And they're pretty healthy like, they're like healthy muffins. Oh, okay. Yeah. Love that. Oh yeah. Um, okay. I started this book and then we should get into the episode.'cause it's a long one. It's a great one though. Oh, I'm so excited. I am so excited. Yeah. Um, okay. It's called How to Manifest. It's by Lacey Phillips. It's new. It's the first book I've ever pre-ordered in my life. I'm like, who am I? Okay. So they have a podcast called To Be Magnetic. Okay. These people, and like I, I mean, as with any of this stuff, you know, some, anybody, I'm sure even myself, you know, people are like, Hmm. It's like some of it you relate to some of it, you don't. Oh. You know? Yeah. Oh yeah. Um, and I, and I do think also, I had a side question of Philip asked me the other day, why do mostly women believe in manifestation and not men? Hmm. Do you have a take on that? Because I never really thought of it., I'm trying to think if I do know any men who manifest. I feel like I know some, I know one. Yeah. Mm-hmm. To be fair, I also don't know that many women who also manifest. Oh, really? Yeah. I know. Like you, I know. I, I feel like I know more women. Um, but, I don't know. I think there's options and I don't know that I agree with any of them or like believe in any of them, there's like the women's intuition thing, which I feel like women are generally more tapped into, like the idea of a higher power. I also think that women are more adaptable. So like if they want to believe in a different reality, they are more likely to adapt. Yeah. And be like, I will choose to believe in this because I want to, and it will make my life better. It's, it's interesting because when you asked me this, I was like, I guess in a weird way, manifestation does feel feminine. Right? But I don't know why I couldn't tell you. Yeah, right. I couldn't tell you because I, I'm trying to like, understand it and I was like, it's for everyone, right? For anyone who, who wants to, yeah. Um. Does Philip manifest? No, but here's the thing. Well, his take was because he felt like men would be more likely to be like, I'm just gonna strong arm my way into getting whatever I want. Which I think makes sense with his episode, right? Where he is like, mm-hmm I want this thing, right? I'm gonna get it. It's like a I'm masculine energy strength thing. But see with him like this book that I'm, this How to Manifest Book Uhhuh, which is like a different way of manifesting, which I'll say in a second, but with him like. If this works for me, he will do it. You know what I mean? Like he's not so proof proud. He needs Yeah, he needs proof. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like he's not so proud in his like, whatever, masculine, whatever, blah, blah, blah, that. He's like, no, I won't accept help from the universe. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. He's like, well, I want the thing. So like, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I see that. Yeah. But this theory more practical. Yeah. Yeah. This theory is really interesting because. The theory is this creator, Lacey Phillips, did like 10 years of trying to, she was an actor. Okay. And she was like trying to manifest her acting career. Okay. Wow. And she had like all the manifestation things and it wasn't working. She was always like, she calls herself the come down to girl, where it was like always her and another person, and I went with the other person. Mm-hmm. I was like, oh. Deep. Yeah. Yeah. So, but anyway, what her whole process is like, I mean, it's like a three step thing that I, you know, I'm, I've just started the book, but a lot of it is you have to unblock, a story or subconscious mind is telling you. Mm-hmm. Okay. That is actually blocking you from getting what you're trying to manifest, because it's like indirect opposite. And there's a lot of exercises and I've realized going through this of just like, I ha totally have a block about feeling worthy enough to be. As successful as I wanna be, which I didn't because consciously I don't, you know what I mean? Like consciously I feel like, yeah, we're always like, what we're, we're good. Like yeah, this happening. Yeah, we're worthy. But like there's a subconscious thing and I've kind of tied it about, I mean I think there's probably many levels to why I am sure a lot of it is like childhood, but like my acting teacher guru, first acting teacher. Uses me as an example of somebody who wasn't as naturally talented as other people, but worked harder and therefore surpassed my peers. And this is meant to be like a good thing for his current students. And I remember at one point he was like, do you mind that I say that? And I was like, no, no, no. But I think it's become a story of like other people have this nugget of talent that I didn't have. Interesting. And even though the garden has sort of grown around it now, like yeah. I think there's still part of me that feels like the reason why I'm not getting it is because I don't have that nugget that these other people have. What was the process of finding that out? Finding that out? I mean, I think I discovered that a journal, like a journaling thing? Yeah, like a journaling thing. And it was one of their. Well, I think it was like one of, before I even started the book, it was like one of their episodes and something about unworthiness. I don't know. But you know what was weird? I, I told Kate this and Kate was like, yeah, you've told me that story before. And I was like, I don't, I don't remember ever telling the story. Oh, okay. Of the teacher that said like, I worked harder than other, because I didn't think it was really affecting me, you know? But it is. But it makes sense that then your manifestations are not coming through. If subconsciously you're like, actually I don't, don't feel worthy you know, all that stuff. Mm-hmm. That's interesting. Wow. It's interesting how long you said, so it's three steps. Yeah. Are you on the first step? Second step? Where are you now? Yeah, I, I mean, I think they're all supposed to happen kind of congruently. Mm-hmm. One of them is finding your authentic self. I hope I don't totally mess this up. I did that today and it was like if you had a day off and nobody was watching, what's like the top four things you would do? That's one of the questions. There's all these different categories, like what are the things that really spark joy in you? And then you kind of go and it's maybe, I don't know, seven or eight of these different categories and you're like putting in the four things in each. And then you go through and see like what kind of coincides, what keeps coming up over and over again. So I mean. Acting came up a lot,'cause going into this, I, and just this year, I'm like, is this a genuine part of my authentic self? Mm-hmm. Like, is this what I'm actually supposed to be manifesting? But I'm like, oh damn. I think it is, unfortunately, you know, because like when she went through this whole process, she realized she doesn't wanna be an actor. Okay. She realized like, I don't like the. Process of doing this. I don't enjoy the process, I'm just trying to get to the result. And I was like, oh, that's so not, that is so not what I'm, that's so interesting because I feel like you can still love acting, but again, hate the business. Yeah. Hate, hate the, yeah. But I guess that's par, I guess, like, yes. That's all part of it. Right? And to be an actor, you are gonna enjoy it at least enough to. Put up with it. Yeah. Right. Very, I, I would definitely draw it. Yeah. When I'm done with it, I'm giving it to you. You should do it. Okay. Okay. It's like almost artist's way, but like, I was I gonna say, it kind of sounds that way? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Oh yeah. We'll see. Maybe this is the key. I'm just like, okay, I am just following, following the impulses and the guidance. Yeah. If anything, it's good to know what your blocks are. Yeah, a hundred percent. Or your triggers or whatever. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that's what's up with that. That's what's up with that. Also, before we, uh, get to the actual episode, yeah. We are gonna say. A brief ado. We're not leaving. We're not leaving, but we're gonna be on hiatus. We're gonna take a little holiday break starting with Halloween. Happy Halloween, everyone Happy? Hi, freaking Halloween. Halloween. What are you gonna be for Halloween? So originally I was gonna be coralline. I'm saving that. Oh, that's good. I'm saving that for another year because this year we're just gonna sit out and Oh, I, for those who don't know, I just got a new down. Yeah. Oh, that's neat. And so Mabel, our dog is gonna be a little pumpkin love. So I got a pumpkin onesie and we're gonna be little pumpkins together. Oh, I love that. I love that. So I'm excited. I love that. Also, it should be said that the day before Olivia got her dog. Me and Philip were watching the Great British bakeoff love that show. And one of the grannies made a cake for her granddaughter Mabel. And I was like, that is such a cute name. Philip was like, yeah, it reminds me of Arrested Development. I was like, I really, and I was like, and you could call her maybe for short. And he was like, yeah, that's what they do in Arrested Development, which I haven't gotten through all of Arrested Development. Maybe I'll have to try it again. I don't, we actually, uh, named her from um, gravity Falls. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So different show. Different show. Yeah. But yeah. Then the next day Olivia was like, I got a dog and her name's Mabel. I was like, that was crazy. That's a sign. I know. Honestly, it helped me.'cause we were in these, we just got her and we had a, like a seven day trial, more or less to see if she fit with us. And she is a shy girl. Mm-hmm. And we were a little cautious but, but when you said that. Oh, that I was like, okay, that's already a good sign. And it just reminds me something of like the whole Fiona story of it all. Mm-hmm. Where like, my sister called me way past my due date and was like, you don't have to take this name, but me and Gabby, her daughter we're talking and the name Fiona would be amazing. I was like, what? But yeah, it totally feels like, okay. Yeah, it's right. The right dog's the right name. Yay. Yay. All right. Um, yeah, so we'll see you in the new year. Yeah. Um, see you in the new year. And feel free to write in. Yeah, give us, send us some messages. Send messages. You know, if you wanna leave us a little review, send it to a friend. All that's good. Like subscribe, like it, subscribe girl. We have Sarah Lindsay for you. Woo. They are incredible. Oh my gosh. They've got an amazing story. So, um, yeah, very multifaceted spiritual history. Yep. Lot of great stuff in there. Yeah. I'm so excited. Yeah. I don't wanna give anything away, but yes. Ah, all right. And enjoy all the episode friends. Love ya. Love ya. See you in the new year. See ya. Bye. Bye. Hello? Hello, hello. It's always some sort of like half based song. I have to, you have to. Okay. What else can you do? I can't introduce, I can't start the podcast. Podcast without singing. I just, maybe it just makes all the nerves go away. I just have to sing. Okay. You just have to sing. Yes. We have an amazing guest for you. Yes. I actually wish we had a video for this moment.'cause Sarah Lindsley is just always well, curated, just every, the, the art on the body mm-hmm. Is great. Sarah Lindsley is a multimedia artist and a burlesque dancer. Yep. And a costume shop supervisor. Yes. And she's amazing. And she's fixed my jeans many times. That's just a side note, that's just a side edition. Just to show you how good of a person would fix someone's jeans. Yeah. So many times I love it, but I love the jeans, you know? Yeah. So welcome, welcome. Thank you. I'm excited to be here. We're so happy to have you. Yeah. We started asking people in the beginning, and we'll get into it later, how you would classify yourself spiritually. Mm-hmm. Interesting question. Uh, how would I classify myself? I guess I, I classify myself. Definitely as a spiritual person, like I'm heavily spiritual. Mm-hmm. Um, I grew up in a non-denominational church. My dad was a youth pastor for like surfers. Specifically For surfers, yeah. Yes. Very cool. I know we grew up on the beach like every Monday. I'm from Oceanside, which is in San Diego. Yeah. Yeah. That's where parents Exactly. I know me and Bill. I was like, Hey, I know what she say. Yeah. Exciting. Oh, it's cute. It's cute there. It is cute there. Yeah. Yeah. So my, my church was like, well, my dad would do bible study on the beach every Monday, and then we actually did church in this old 1920s movie theater. Oh my gosh. That we converted into a church and my dad's office was like behind the screen. Wow. So it was very, it's been very cool. Um, you say was, did they move or he No, they're still there. Okay. My dad is no longer the youth pastor there. Okay. But not for any, you know, bad reason he just graduated on and Yeah. Yeah. Retired and Yeah. You know, living his best life. Um, so does he still go to that church? No, they, I think they actually moved churches recently and I think it's just for, um, like location, but they're still really good friends with the pastor there. Mm-hmm. So I still see actually Ron as my old pastor and I see, shout out Ron. Shout out Ron Rono the guy. Um, and yeah, so I was like the oldest daughter of the, the pastor, you know? Okay. So I took it religion very seriously as a child. And, um, and because I think I grew up in a very nature based, um, like again, being at the beach for a lot of church activity, um, and in the water, I'm very like nature based spiritually, I guess if I was to classify myself as someone is like very connected to nature and like the spirituality that comes from it. Mm-hmm. And yeah. Wow. I love all that. I love that too. Okay, we're gonna circle back around. I have 16 million questions. Um, before, do we wanna do our three breaths or pull a card? Yes. Um, totally up to you. So we could do both,, yeah. Let's, let's pull a card. I am very, I do a lot of tarot and oracle in my whole life. Okay. Well I thought you did. I wasn't sure though. Yeah, I do. Yeah. I'm no longer a Christian. I'm so sorry to both my parents. Um, but do they know that? They do know that. Okay. Okay. Um. I, but I am still very heavily spiritual. Mm-hmm. And I still carry a lot of those Christian, um, values with me, actually. Okay. So was there any reluctance to learn tarot or Oracle because of that? Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, for sure. I definitely saw it as something like very evil growing up. Something, you know, I didn't under understand and I. Thought it was of the devil, you know? Mm. And now I have more of a, I see them more, almost like journal prompts for my subconscious. Ooh. You know, that's, that's a great way to describe Yeah. Where it's I'll pull a card and I'm like, whatever. That card triggers for me in my mind, because every card has their symbol, you know, or their meaning behind it. Mm-hmm. And it, the, the journal prompt, I'm like, whatever that pulls up for me. Mm-hmm. I should probably pay attention to. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. So that's how I see that. And sometimes they're just too spooky. I don't know. I'm like, sometimes it's spooky. Yeah. Connected. Yeah. Yeah. Too little. Too connected It. A little too pointed. Yeah. That when the same one pops up over and over again, I really, I mean, the void pops up. It still does. The void pops up void. Maybe you're just in the void for a bit. I've been in the void for quite a long time and every time, and sometimes it'll be like. I'll reach around and I'll get a little, like shiver in my finger kind of thing, and I'll pick, and sometimes I, I'll be like, Hmm, I'm just going that to the side. That's weird. And, and then that one's the void. It's shi I feel like it's my spirit. Yeah. So I think it's my spirit guys being like, I don't know what you're trying to tell me. I'm not getting it. I try something else. Gimme one different time. That's funny. Uh, okay. Well, yeah, feel free. Free to. Okay. And I do have a collection of Oracle slash Tarot. Oh, that is, uh, Lord of the Rings. Yo help. Yes. We found the one, the one ring tool. The, although check out the, like explanation is like a Oh my God. Of course. It's like a map, bro. Okay. I'm into this. I was a big Lord. The Rings kid. Still am. Oh, you are right. Oh, fundamental. I never got into it. Somehow I'm going to New Zealand soon. Literally to go to Hobbit Tims. Yeah. Amazing. I have literally like a sword in my living room. Yes. And I have Barbie dolls. The Barbie doll has Lord the Rings. Uh, great. We will be. Wow. I love it. Okay. Um, do we also wanna do the three breaths or do you just wanna pull, let's do three breaths. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I love to breathe. Me too. Me too. Okay. Okay. So good. That was so in sync. Nice. That was great. I don't even, I'm but yoga, so calm Yeah. Centered. True. It really does work. It does. It really does. I had yoga today and it, and I was like meditating at the end and it was like the first time that I meditated and was like seeing colors. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Oh. And I was like, that's the first time that's ever happened. I was like, oh, this is like good. Like I need to come back to this. Yes. It felt like my mind was really quiet enough to see like it was a lot of purple. Oh yeah, purple. Yeah. That's a good color. It was kind of like, it was almost like kaleidoscope. It was like, you wanna split it purple? Yeah. Yeah. Split it however you want. Yeah. And then take that card around top and that'll be your card. So that you's getting me. Oh, what'd you get? Is that six? Yeah, six of rains. Okay. Is that six of Pentacles? Open up my map. Uh oh. Right here. Okay. Ready? Okay. And it was upright. It was upright. Okay, great. No hero is too great to offer a helping hand, nor too foolish to refuse assistance. The six of Ring speaks to both offering and accepting help no matter which side of the scenario you're on. Embrace generosity in the, with the humble spirit. Hmm. Did that journal prompt your brain? Yeah. Uh, I, I mean, I guess a little,'cause I guess right now in my own personal life, I'm going through an upheaval of leadership. Oh, okay. Where I am becoming a leader, um, in a position that I was really resisting. I actually feel like aor That's so funny. I was literally writing my dirt off. Lucky. I was like, I don't wanna be king. I just wanna be a ranger, and like being a wild creative. Um, but they're like, but you, you're pretty good at making, so just like doing. Please. Um, so, uh, yeah. So anyway, so I guess that whole the asking for help, but also giving help and being.'cause I really do wanna make, be a conscious and humble leader. That is something that I'm very, um, that's very important to me is to like, not be too, like high on my horse. Mm-hmm. But also knowing I have to be strong and knowing that people do seek my leadership and I have to not, um, downplay it, I guess a little. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's very insightful. And I feel like when you approach leadership in that very, uh, mindful way and aware of, being very aware is, I don't know, I don't know you that well, but makes a great leader, I think. Thank you. Yeah. It's funny, I, I always wonder if it's like a, is it a feminine quality? I think in my head it is like the being a leader thing. It felt to me like, oh, well then I'm just a bitch. Exactly. Like it was like exactly okay, there's only one option. Yeah. Yeah. And then, but then the other option felt like, okay, then I just have to kind of do what everybody says and just be nice and da da da da. I feel like being a parent is try is kind of changed that a little bit for me. Yeah. Where you have no choice but to be a leader, but in a positive way. In a positive, A positive way. Yeah. Yeah. But I think that pops up for people a lot. Or women. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think too, like there's that whole you know, the moms, especially the grandmothers Right. Like truly rule the fam, you know? Mm-hmm. It's like they are like this compass. Um, but it's like a silent quote unquote silent compass in the past. So it's still like you're supposed to be a leader for sure.'cause you're a mother or a grandmother or whatever. You're teaching your kids everything, right? Traditionally, but at the same time, you're not supposed to take the credit. Yeah, yeah. Of like truly ruling the roost because you're not making the money per se, right? Mm-hmm. So there's all that like weird weirdness and leadership, I think for women too, where it's yeah, like you can lead but don't. Be too cocky about it. Right. And don't take credit for it. Yeah, yeah. You know? Yeah. I think it's starting to blend away. I think it is too. And thank God. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What was it like with your parents?'cause your dad was obviously such a leader. Mm-hmm. So was your mom like involved in the church too? She was, no. Yeah, she was definitely, we did a lot of, um, like weddings, my,'cause my dad was a youth pastor, so he was constantly being asked to um, marry people. Wow. And with that, my mom has a very giving spirit, especially with her like artistry. She's very talented and like decorating, yeah, like decorating things like my, every holiday for me was just so magical because she just decorated it just, you know, down to every last detail had, um, something special about it. So she would do that for weddings and stuff for people who do have money, and eventually became now like her business is what she does now. Really? Oh, like wedding planner? Yeah. She's yeah, she's, she started as just flowers, but she is also you know, the coordinator, she would never admit that she is like a producer of weddings, but uh, that's what she does. She's definitely has that brain that she can just she knows how to run an event and get it all together. She knows how to do everything, so it's hard for her not to do everything. Yeah. Type of thing. Um, so that's how she would be involved in the church a lot is she would be asked to like, you know, decorate the tree or throw this gala or, you know, throw this fundraising event. Um, so she was definitely like that go-to person. Wow. Yeah. That's so cool. Yeah. So like with my dad and leadership, like my dad was definitely like the head of the household. Mm-hmm. Um, but my mom, I was also homeschooled, so Oh, okay. Yeah. So, and my parents did split up the homeschooling like disciplines. Okay. So they were both pretty equal in my eyes. Um, oh, there wasn't one teacher in your head? No. Right. Oh, okay. My dad did math and science'cause he was like an engineering major. Mm-hmm. Um, and then in math, and then my mom was like, all like the humanities. Okay. So she did you know, the history, the art, the um, English and stuff like that. And how many siblings do you have? I have three. So I'm the oldest of four. Okay. So you all were homeschooled? Yeah, until when I, I was straight up homeschooled until I was like eight years old and then we were put into a charter school system. Okay. Where we went to school two days a week and then. We were homeschooled three days a week. Okay. Wow. Yeah, and we did that all the way up until high school. And then we went to the sister high school, which is, we went to school four days a week, and then Monday was like an at home, um, like electives day. Mm-hmm. So that's when you did like soccer or theater, or if you didn't have any like elective to do, all the teachers would still be in their classrooms and you could go in to get help on the test that's coming up or help on your homework and stuff like that. Did you like that? Yeah. Yeah. Say this sounds, I was gonna say, this sounds really nice. It was really nice. It was really nice.'cause I got enough, I got like a classroom of kids still that were pretty consistent. There was like 25 to 20 of us. Um, and so I got like social time with kids. Yeah. But then I got a lot of at home time with my siblings, we did a lot of field trips, you know, um, our PE could be whatever. We didn't have a standard pe it was just like whatever you did activity wise, so. Mm-hmm. Surfing with my dad or, you know, ballet class or whatever, like those all counted versus being forced to exercise in front of your classmates. Yeah. Um. So that was really nice. I really liked it. Mm-hmm. I, it made going into the workforce where I had to be somewhere like five days a week. I was like, the fuck is it? This is awful. I just dunno why people do this. Did you go to college after I did. Okay. I did, yeah. Okay. Yeah. High achiever. I went to, um, Pepperdine University. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So Christian college. That's beautiful there. Yeah. Beautiful college. I went there for, because it was Christian actually. Oh, really? That was really important to me at the time, and I'm still happy I went. Mm-hmm. Um, what'd you ma, what'd you major in? What'd you study? I studied costume. Okay. I did yeah, theatrical arts and then focused in like costume and hair. Oh, okay. And then I also did like a fine art minor. Oh, okay. Okay. So when did you decide I'm no longer Christian, honestly, it was the Trump election, the first election. Oh, wow. Because I, so I had just graduated from Pepperdine. Mm-hmm. Okay. And I did a lot of spiritual formation. It was definitely at like my height of spirituality was being at Pepperdine. Mm-hmm. Because I not only. Um, I mean, you have to take religion classes throughout that time, which were very cool. Mm-hmm. You know, um, it really expanded my mind and of Christianity in general. It made me realize that there's all these different denominations and everyone thinks that they're right. So that my, my view of Christianity kind of broadened.'cause I was like, oh, these people are spiritual people. Yeah. And also my mom's family, um, was, were Catholic. And so, um, and I was like, they're also like, I think going to heaven. You know, so it was, I had to put money on it. I put money on it. Like my Aunt Gie, she has 150 relics, like in her house. I'm not even it's like Jesus, same, mostly Jesus and like archangels. Um, but I was like, there's no way that they're wrong. You know? Right. So it, it brought in my. View of Christianity a lot. Mm-hmm. And because of that, I think I was becoming more, I guess, radical in like my love category and being more flexible with the rules I was taught. Mm-hmm. Growing up. Yeah. Um, and then with the election, I was severely disappointed in the church because of how big of their base did elect Trump. Yeah. Because I think it was like 80% of the church base elected for Trump. Yeah. Which I just saw as someone who was so anti-Christian value. And also I was taught growing up that you need to vote on your morality a hundred percent. And then I was like, but this is literally exactly the opposite. Mm-hmm. This man is so hateful and is so, um, I, I mean, you know, there's so many things about him Yeah. That are just so anti-Christian and was like Jesus would not. Like this guy well, Jesus would love him no matter what. Right. Like you wouldn't vote for him, but like Jesus wouldn't be like this guy. Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, I have this theory that I don't even know that I really believe, but I was talking my dad about this, that perhaps Trump is the devil. What if, what if antichrist seems, and this, this is how I pitched my dad. I was like, okay, God's out there. Like social media's confusing. Who's good, who's not? I don't know. Let me send the devil down and whoever is in support of the devil, right? Then I'll know. Then I'll know like who, who is good in their hearts and who's not. But yeah, it seems it's so, it just is so wrong like how do you justify these two things? Like in the Bible what it's saying, you, they're you big Bible speaker people, but his platform feels very like it. The Christian people are behind me. Mm-hmm. It, it does feel that way. Yeah. Which is like Christian nationalism, your neighbor and the love your like love the whore and love the poor person and love it. And it's no, it is. So just exactly that. Yeah. Like I, and I was also, I felt very confused'cause like my dad, because of where, you know, we grew up on the beach, there's a lot of homeless there, a lot of, um, drug addicts. Mm-hmm. And my dad helped a lot of those people through really hard times. And I saw him do that over and over again and our church was filled with a lot of people who have hit rock bottom. Yeah. And lived very, um, you know, interesting lives. And so I was taught that no one is beyond you know, like everyone can be accepted, everyone can turn their lives around and everyone can be accepted eventually. You know, it's like you just have to keep working on yourself and you know, giving out love and that's how you change people is through giving out love. Yeah. And I just did not see that with this president. And what made me break away from Christianity was I kept hearing myself say, oh, I'm Christian, but I don't do this, this, and this and this. Or, I'm Christian, but I don't, you know, believe in this, this, this, I'm Christian. But, and then that verse kept ringing in me about um, you know, either like you're all in or you're all out. And he hates the wishy-washy, right? Yeah. Don't be like that wishy-washy Christian. And I'm like. Well then like I'm not all in if this is what the base is voting for. Right. If this is what they're putting their whole self behind. Mm-hmm. So I'm not that. Yeah. Right. You know? Right. So I went off and was really hard. I mean, that really destroyed my view of the world because I've been Yeah, sure. How it not, how does it not, you know, I'm like 20, like four at this point, and I'm like, wow, my entire world was cracked open. Right? Yeah. Because all the possibilities started flooding in and it was really hard for a while. I was like, no, spirituality. Because it was just very touchy for me where I was like, I can't welcome anything in, because I think it's all bogus now, because yeah, my whole life was bog, you know? In my mind I was like, none of it is real, you know? Were you able to talk to your parents about it? While you were going through this? Not really. I, um, I did go through most of it alone. Uh, I. Yeah. I don't know. I just, I felt really, I guess, betrayed in a weird way. Mm-hmm. That was like the, the feeling I was like, lied to or lied to. No, just, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Were they supporting Trump during while this was going on, your parents? I, at first thought they didn't. Oh. So, and then I was like kind of afraid to ask and then it was like throughout that first presidency, I was like, wait. I was like, you too. So it did break my heart in that way. Yeah. Yeah. Where I was like. Wait, like I didn't, I broke away from this because of what you taught me. Through like your radical love, like Right. Your, you know, way that you walk through life and have showed me that don't judge a book by its cover. And so it's that's why I have gay friends now. That's why I have trans friends now. And um, and also my family. We're big artists. Everyone in my family is an artist of some kind. And I have many professional artists in my family tree. Okay, that's cool. Yeah. Yeah. Which is really cool. Which means we've also been very, um, under understanding of art. Mm-hmm. And it's need to be free. Mm-hmm. You know, so as an artist myself. Um, I found that like sometimes with Chris, like at Pepperdine going to Pepperdine mm-hmm. Our art was censored a lot. Oh. Because if it was not religious enough, or if it was like we couldn't we didn't have figure drawing classes with nude models because it was too sexual. Yeah. So I would do presentations at prep or dime that's well, do you not let your anatomy students practice on naked bodies? Mm-hmm. Because they need to know what the naked human body looks like, but it's not sexual because it's science. It's only sex. If it's art. Which we should talk about that because I think, I think that there is this like connection between creativity and like sexuality and also just like spirituality. Mm-hmm. I think they're all like interlaced. Yeah. Oh, I love that. Yeah. Because, okay, here we go. Yeah. Ready? I love this. I love this. We're in it. We're in it. We're in invested. So something that has also resonated with me, um, was like, we were, were made in the image of God. Right? That's what I was taught. And God is like ultimate creator. Mm-hmm. Um, because, you know, image of God, I'm not a man. Right. And the religion I grew up in, God was a man. Mm-hmm. But I'm like, so what does that mean? Like for me as growing up as a woman, what does that mean? Um, and God is this ultimate creator. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, I can resonate with that. I think humans create. That's what we, that's all we do. Right. You know, like to our, for better or for worse, you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, and I think through creating right, that's how you connect with your spirit. Mm-hmm. That is what art is in the end, is like putting your, making whatever that spirit is. Whatever that inner thought is. Like physical. Mm-hmm. So, so with this creativity, right? And like this image of God and the spirituality, I think sexuality like has to be intertwined in that, right?'cause it's connected to your spirit and it's a very creative process. Through sex, we create life, right? Truly, truly, truly. Yeah. That is like the ultimate creation, right? So there is this you know, cohesiveness. And I think with the church, especially like the church I grew up in, right? Where like homosexuality was not accepted. It wasn't talked about really, honestly. Okay. So it wasn't like. It just wasn't really addressed. Like I didn't know gay people existed for a long time. Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. Um, and your parents didn't really talk about it with you, like outside of the church? Mm-hmm. I remember I asked once, I was like, what does gay mean? And they were my, I think it was my mom. She was like, oh, it's when like a man loves another man and woman lives another woman. And I was like, okay. And then, um, and I know I had a talk with my dad'cause I knew that through investigating that mm-hmm. On the, honestly, on the internet, right. Because I was new internet kid. Um, I was like, oh, it's bad for Christians to be gay. Mm-hmm. So I was like, why is it against the, like, why does Jesus. Not like gay people. If he loves the whore, if he loves the poor man, if he loves all these people. Why is the gay, why is gay being so bad? Yep. And my dad's on, um, honest response was like, I don't know. And he was like, I don't know. It doesn't super make sense to me. All I know is that, you know, that's what it says in the Bible and mm-hmm. And I have faith, so he's that's one of my questions. I'll ask God when I get up there. Oh wow. That was like his response then. I don't know his response now. Mm-hmm. Um, I mean, I'm queer. Um mm-hmm. Well, I think all of my siblings are queer. Oh, really? Okay. Yeah. Uh, love that. I love that. We're a very fabulous bunch. I'll say family of artists. Family of artists. I love that. But I think that's like artists, right? Mm-hmm. Are like classified as being queer most of the time, right? Mm-hmm. Because there's this cre creativity. It's just, you know, going outside these rules and boundaries. Yeah. Yeah. That's like the antithesis of religion. Right. Which is like a lot of rules and boundaries. Yeah. At least the one I grew up in. Mm-hmm. Totally. So I felt a lot of like dissonance between my creative world and my religion. Mm-hmm. But not with my creative world and my spirituality, my creative world, and my spirituality seemed in harmony. Oh, okay. Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. But it was my religion that I was like, but it just says this is bad, and I don't really have a reason to. Mm-hmm. But I'm like, you know, talking with God, I'm praying, you know, and this is just me processing what's inside of me and if that's bad, it still needs to be processed. Yeah. You know? Mm-hmm. It shouldn't be hidden. Um, so I don't know. So it was, it was a confusing time I guess growing up as both Yeah. Artist, but Yeah. Pastor's daughter. Right. Yeah. And it makes sense. So, trump gets elected. You expelled the idea of Christianity and, and you said all religion and spirituality. Yeah. I was like, done. Were you still like talking to God at all or no. Or you were just like, I can't do any of this. Um, makes sense. I mean, to me, if you're just like, I need to figure this out. What would you say is like when you started to kind of tip your toe back in? What tip toe? Kind of like, well, you said it sounds like you were, I'm already answering your question. It's okay. I was like, sounds you know, you are, uh, always creative. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. You were always doing that and that is tapped in with your spirituality. Mm-hmm. So what? Yes. I'm, how you answer. So I, so I was like, no, religion tapped out by mm-hmm. And, um, I couldn't, I didn't make art. For a little bit. Oh, okay. That makes sense. So I didn't make art. I wasn't drawing, I wasn't, I felt really stuck. And then I got, I started dating mm-hmm. Um, for the first time ever at really, like 25. Yeah. You didn't date through college? Mm-hmm. Nope. Was it tied into the Christianity thing? At first it was, I was a very serious, I'm very studious. I'm very studious. And I was like, it's just not something I'm focusing on right now. Okay. And, um, and also now that I'm, I, I find out I'm also queer. So there was a lot of people that like, I was like, it's, I didn't even think, you know, I was like, it's just better just not to think about it and just focus on my schoolwork, which is something that does interest me. I'm a huge nerd. Mm-hmm. So, I wasn't, I didn't feel like I was suppressing anything. I was just like, that's not important. Right now, I'm 16 years old. I'm gonna focus on getting into college and getting a good job. Right. So that's what I did. And then I, I always wanted to date, but, um, I have also been five foot nine and like 260 pounds my entire, like literally since eighth grade I've been this size mm-hmm. Since eighth grade, which has been a challenge. Um, and I am, I'm just a, I'm just a big person, which is fine. It's something I love about myself now. Yeah. But it did set me apart and I do not look nor act like the perfect Christian woman, even when I was the perfect Christian woman. So, yeah, I just wasn't a desired. Mate. Mm-hmm. I would say so. And instead of letting it, I mean, I did let it hurt me a lot. Yeah. You know, it, it really has carried, it carried a lot of weight with me. Mm-hmm. So, to, to ignore that part, I was like, I'm gonna focus on my artwork in college Yeah. And my career. Um, and that was always my excuse. And then, so once I stopped having yeah. That spirituality to go back to and no creativity to focus on, I like went into it was like, well, I need to start dating and just see what that is now that I'm not Christian. Like I don't care about these Christian values. I don't care about anything. I'm just gonna see what the world has to offer to me. Mm-hmm. And I went through a lot of bad, bad things, but I also knew I was going to go through a lot of bad things. Mm. Like I con, I just. Was like, I'm gonna go through some, you know? Yeah. And um, and I did, and then I got into a relationship pretty fast. Mm-hmm. A very serious relationship and it was very toxic Oh. And bad in the end, but I learned a lot. Yeah. And it's, it's a, I learned a lot, but it took a lot of my energy too, and I wasn't really focused on being spiritual really. Mm-hmm. Towards the end of that relationship, the more miserable I got Yeah. The more I was like, man, I do not feel centered in myself. I'm just sad all the time. And like, how do I get rid of all this energy that's inside me? Mm-hmm. Right. There's all this sadness and like anxiety. So, um, I really, I was like, I just need to get back into drawing or art or something. Mm-hmm. So I just start, I've, and I've always journaled. That is something that has been a practice for me. Um, so I just started creating art again and then, um, I was like. I don't know. I was like, let's try this tarot thing. I don't know, you know? Oh. So I was like, let's just try it. Okay. It kind of did.'cause I was like, let's see what this witch,'cause witchcraft in general was like, there's no rules. It's just what, what resonates with you? Take it or leave it. And I was like, I could dip my toe into that. Yes. Because I can take or leave whatever I want. Mm-hmm. And I don't have to identify with any what way. Mm-hmm. I just, but I know that I love, I loved it when I did have some meditation in my life. Like whether that was prayer or being out in the ocean, right. With my dad. Um, like hiking, camping like those times of peace and quiet, you know, or when I'm like just in that flow state of art. Yeah. That's, there's all that, that's the good stuff right there. Yeah. It's the good stuff right there. That's the good stuff right there. That's the good stuff right there. Yeah. And again, when you're just, it's just you and your spirit. Right. Just, in harmony. You feel that you feel it, you feel that. Yeah. So I was like, I need to get back to that. So I broke up with that guy and I Nice. Yeah. I went back into thank you. And then I went into a more strict, I was like, I need a strict spiritual regimen. Mm-hmm. Because I know I've been ignoring that part of myself. Okay. Mm-hmm. And it's something that is so important to me. Yeah. Yeah. Your whole life. My whole life I've been like such a spiritual kid. Yeah. And um, and I was like, and it's withered to dying. Yeah. So the way to make it stronger, just like exercise, right. To be consistent with it and just to keep going. I still don't like pray to a deity or anything. Okay. Um, you don't. Talk to God anymore. I, I don't talk to Well, well, so so I, I, I think there's like Right. It's like creation. Okay. Right. As a whole, there's like creation around me. Mm-hmm. And there's like a spiritual humming that is within all of us, within the animals and the plants and Right. Which is I guess God. Right. Okay. Because I don't think people are wrong about God. I think every religion is so universal. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. That it's, it's stupid to ignore that, you know, where I'm like, it's just so universal and, um. And, you know, their creation gods, you know, like every culture is, it's gods to create things. Mm-hmm. And so you believe there is a higher power? I don't think there's a higher power. Okay. I, I, I think, I think there is just, oh, I guess higher power as in we are not the top of the totem pole. Okay. Or whatever, you know, we're not, we're not the top of this food chain. Yeah. I think we're all mixed in. So I guess the, the greater power is just it's the unity of the, the energy in the world, but I don't think it's determining things for us. Okay. I think it's just, it is what it is. Okay. Was that hard to separate the word? So, so you would use the word God to describe this energy still? Is that or is that vocabulary. Iffy because it used to represent something different. Yeah. I think for me, God is just so tied with like that biblical mm-hmm. God. Yeah. That it's a very, it's too small, honestly, for me. Oh. Like that biblical god. And just again, just like with art and God, I think as soon as you define them, your definition's too small for it. Right? Yeah. No one can really define art. Yeah, that's true. It's, it's a huge debate and it rages on, you know, like is AI art. Right. That's what we're against right now. Don't even get me started, but Exactly. And, and it's like this huge debate and I think it should, you know,'cause, and it's I do think there is room for it, but I, I hate it. I also think it's like evil and whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's just me. No, no, I'm with you. But I, I would not say that it would, could never be used for art. Yeah. At the same time. Okay. So I. I think that as soon as you define God, your definition is too small for him. So, um, so yeah, right now it's just I don't even know, I don't even talk to anything like I, it's more, it's more of a feeling that I'm connecting with and like connecting with. Other energies and I connect a lot to plants in nature. Yeah. Like I have a tree i, I dance under. Yes. I love that. What kind? Do you know what kind of tree? It's by chance. Yeah. It's a California peppercorn tree. Yeah. That's my favorite tree. Yeah, it's great. It's the best tree. It's, oh my gosh. I was just talking to people about this tree. I was like, you don't realize that's pepper. Yes, it's pepper. It's a peppercorn. It's a pepper tree. You, Olivia just had a full on bodily actually. Oh, spirit. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I dance with this. I would love to dance over this tree with you on one day. Yeah. No. And like that is, that is a way that I ground myself like at the end of a long day. I do it most days a week if I can, um, depending on how broken my body is at the time. But I, I truly do. I, I put in my headphones and I. Dance for I don't even know how long until I'm, I feel settled. I love that. Yeah. It's this a specific California peppercorn tree. Yes. It's it's just, it's basically what it is. There is a parking, like my apartment has a little alleyway behind it where we park our cars and it's all enclosed mm-hmm. By the gate and our neighbor's peppercorn tree grows over our wall. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, um, so it's branches like, you know, graze the ground sometimes. So I, it's the one piece of nature I can like, touch. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's not like public. It's pretty private. Um, and you know, it has long branches. Mm-hmm. So I'm usually like, you know, weaving my way through it or I'm just dancing beside it. But I just like being with the nature under the moonlight. Yes, totally. Um, yeah, with you know, you have leaves on the ground and it's just an easy access for me'cause it's just, it's, I literally just walk downstairs and there, there she is. Mm. I love that. And yeah, just dance. So when you, the first time you were like, I'm gonna try tarot. Mm-hmm. Do you have a memory of that? Going to get the deck and what was that like? Oh, so, so I was so nervous because again, going into any of those stores, it was like evil, evil, evil, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it was like, this is all evil. It's hard to brush away. Oh yeah. It's hard to brush away. It's really hard to imagine, hard to brush away. Um, and I did examine it, right? I'm very much into what is this from? Is it because I truly believe it's evil? I don't necessarily believe in God, so do I believe in the devil? You know, there's all that. And then I was like, or is it all just one and the same, right? Like where it's not evil, it's not bad, it's just nature. Like nature is both harsh and welcoming. Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. Like the ocean is both a tide pool and a monsoon. Yeah. And so I was like, fine, like I, I'm just going to pick this tarot deck, and I saw a tarot deck that I really resonated with, and I just. Bought it. Mm-hmm. And, um, I didn't really do a lot with it at first. Mm-hmm. Um, I did go get my tarot red for the first time, like the day after. Oh really? I bought that deck with your deck, or you, they have Okay. With their deck. And it was such a spooky experience.'cause I literally walked in and he was like, you just bought your first tarot deck. And I was like, whoa, I gotta go by. Oh, I love the, it was crazy. And like the spread he did was it like, even now I go back on it, it was like, was this just me not knowing tarot? Was this like a spooky one? Mm-hmm. Because it was like leading up to my big break with this ex and Oh, you're still with, I was still with my ex at the time, but I was just telling him, I was like, dude, I think I need to start witchcraft or something. I just need to start like a spiritual practice because I feel so dead. Um, like I was in a really bad, bad, bad spot. Mm-hmm. Um, very dark. And I was like, I just need to focus. I just need to do something. So, um, I started that and, um, yeah, I like tarot appealed to me.'cause it doesn't have, it's not to one religion. It doesn't belong to one religion. Mm-hmm. It has, it doesn't have rules really. Like it has its symbols and stuff, but the reason why we have so many different kinds of tarot decks and decks in general is because it's just who's the artist? What did they think that this is? So, um, I agree a hundred percent. Yeah. It's just it's just like a nice. Low, low stakes, um, journal prompts. Um, but spooky journal prompts. I mean, again, I pulled the justice card twice. Oh, what's that? I pulled the justice card twice. Oh. When all that was going down. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, wow. Two different decks. Oh, wow. Two different decks. Two different decks. Yeah. There's stuff like that that I was like, it's not, how is that not something has that not So Wait, when you went to get your tarot cards read for the first time, what did, what was like revealed basically that, like what the, the summation of it. He did. Like the big ten one pulled across when I was like, I was so overwhelmed. I was like, what? But basically it was like, you are coming, like you are coming out of something dark and you are going into something like blossoming and magical. Mm. And like you have this power within you that hasn't been like. Reigned in, if it feels too scattered. Mm-hmm. And right now, like you're honing it in and you're gonna focus and it's gonna lead to a lot of good prosperity in your future. Mm-hmm. But right now it's like you need to like. Focus on yourself and get yourself in check. But I also like it ended with the tower card. Yep. Which, yeah, everyone knows is like the bad. It is like the bad one. It's the bad one. It's honestly I think when people are like, oh, like everyone's afraid of like the death card Uhhuh the DE card, and it's to me, the tower. It's the tower. Oh, the scariest one Because it means your foundation is crumbling. Oh. Basically it's literally a picture of a tower that is crumbling and there's a guy falling. Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah like death is about renewal usually. Yes. Yeah. The devil's about you know, sexuality and like overindulgence and stuff like that. Yeah. Um, but the tower, yeah. It's about crumbling foundations. Yeah. Ooh. Usually for the best. Right, right. Yeah. Like ultimately it's what you need to go through, but it's going to be an intense hard time because everything you know is gonna be. Revalued. It's a nightmare. It is a nightmare. But it is. It's a nightmare. Yeah. Yeah, it's a nightmare. But so that was my first terror reading and I was like, great. But no, it started off with the fool, like the first thing with Yeah. Right. Which is the first card in the terror day. Yes. And it's about the fools journey. And so it was like, that's the, the guy was like, damn. And I also came on some weird, it was like Lionsgate, which is like a huge Yeah. We know how Lions Gate is. Yeah. So I came like on Lionsgate and he was like, August 8th, right? Yeah. Yeah. And he was like, okay, you, he's you have a lot of potential. You need to situate yourself. So I was like, okay. Um, and I just went with it and I just started, you know, experimenting with different practices. Um, I would say I would, I guess, classify myself as like a witch. Now would you say you're a witch? I would, I would in that, like I am a spiritual woman or person. I honestly, I, I identify as non-binary, but okay. Mm-hmm. Just like a spiritual person. And I work a lot with the elements, you know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I like turn to water if I need to you know, unveil emotions. I turn to fire if I want, like creativity, if I want likeness. Mm. Um, I turn to earth if I need something to like really slow me down and meditate and dig deep and I turn to air when I need spirituality. Right? Like those breasts that we took, right? Mm-hmm. It was like very like communally spiritual. Um, so I would, I would class classify myself as a witch. I don't have a set hard practice mm-hmm. Other than like, when I need to like meditate, which, um, I will usually make sure all like electronics are turned off. Okay. But that's just, oh, do you meditate a lot? I guess I don't meditate silently. I'm not like sitting there meditating. Okay. Um, either that's. Dancing, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, or it was just like improv dancing. And that, that tells me a lot about myself actually.'cause I, I've, I grew up dancing. Mm-hmm. I grew up performing Okay. Which is why I do burlesque now. It's really fun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I wanna get into this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, and it, I've felt the most connected when I'm doing something. Physical. Okay. Um, especially physical in nature, hence surfing, hence hiking. Um, hence dancing outside in the moonlight. Like I hate dancing inside, but mm-hmm. You know, we, I also live in a city, so it's usually where you have to dance. Hate. I hate to be this person, but What is your, what are your signs? I know, I've been like, don't ask, don't ask. Don't ask. Ask. I wanna know. Um, I am a Pisces side, a painfully pisan. I call myself, um, Aries Moon. Okay. And a Virgo rising. Oh, so you got earth water and, and fire. And fire. Okay. Okay. That's why I wanted to know mostly. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Yes. Um. It's just a fun trio, I think. Yeah. That's a great Trio's a great Rio to have all like a lot of elements. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very balanced in that way. Mm-hmm. Um, but also conflicting. Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot of conflict in here, but also in the end it's just like learning to balance some. Mm-hmm. So will you do spell work or that's not part of your So I was actually just talking about this to someone the other day. Um, and I kind of see my, I guess, I don't know, I, I'm kind of uncomfortable, not uncomfortable with spells, but I just don't. Because like I used to believe in prayer. Yeah. So hard. And I still do believe in the power of prayer and that I think we have Okay, like energy soup, right? It's like out in this universe, this this communal consciousness thing that I'm obsessed with is yeah. Energy soup. I like that term a lot. I want to make good soup, right? Yes. So it's I wanna put out good things. Yes. And that's what I think prayer is, right? Yes. Is like putting in good energy. Those, all those good thought, those prayer warrior women, you know, oh, but that is putting out good soup into the universe. And so like I don't do anything like against someone, you know, like I don't believe in cursing people. Oh yeah. I don't believe in doing any of that. So my spell work, I would say is like mending jeans, right? For friends, uhhuh. Like whenever I'm doing like a, a mending project for someone, or if I'm helping someone or, um, creating something like Christmas presents or I make Christmas cards. Or I make a New Year's card every year.'cause I have people with so many different religions that I'm like New Year's. Yeah. That's a nice, it was a great card. Yeah. It's incredibly gorgeous. Yes. Oh, oh, you've seen'em? Yes. Yeah. We got one last year as well. Really beautiful. And I was like, I was like, I think that's Sarah made this. I did. Yeah. Yeah. And Phillip was like, and I was like, no, no. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure they did. And then I think, I think he asked you. Yeah. And he was like, he made that. I was like, yeah. I, I, I wanna see Oh yeah. A few pics. Yeah. I, I do We'll need them. Yeah. So I, I, I definitely see especially those cards, I guess if you wanna say just spell work because I, I make that art intentionally to be like, okay, what do I wanna wish people in their new year? Right. And I kind of like go through my year and the lessons I've learned. And also what the world is going through. So this year I'm really trying to focus on what imagery brings, like connection to mind for me.'cause I want to, I want to just emphasize like, reaching out to those that you don't understand. Mm-hmm. Um, and like welcoming that in. So like last year was about like open doors and I hope, you know, so it was like a doorway that was open with like sunlight streaming through? Yeah. Oh my goodness. And I was like, I want, I want people. Yeah. So I was like, I hope many doors open for you. Like this year, the year before that it was like a big star burst. Mm-hmm. And I was like, I want, you know, I hope you have a stellar year, you know? Mm-hmm. Just mm-hmm. Full of stars and sparkles and whatever. So and when I'm writing those cards, I'm thinking about that person I'm writing it to. Obviously I'm spending time. Yeah. You know, like physically making this item for all these people in my life. I'm also spending money, which isn't, it's something I'm also trying to like, I guess incorporate into my spiritual practice.'cause I first, I was like so separate, right? But I'm realizing like my creative energy,'cause I create for a living. Mm-hmm. So it's all my creative energy, the money is the physical accumulation in this world of that creative energy. So a way for me to actually put back into my community is through my monetary gain. And whether that's supporting friends as artists, whether that's making Christmas cards or whatever. It's like I have the ability to do that because of. All this creative energy I put into my work. Yeah. I like that. I've never thought about using, I think people don't wanna think about money and spirituality. Yeah. Like I would never think of those two words in the same sentence. Right. But you're right. Like it is a energy exchange of stories and like how you use it. And it is part of our world uhhuh, whether we like it or not, whether we like it or not. Yeah. Yeah. For that. Yeah. That's interesting. I never thought of it that way. Yeah. It's like I did a movie with somebody a couple years back and she, she calls it, I mean, she calls it tithing, which I think is a very thing. Yep. Tithing thing. Uhhuh tithing. Okay. And so she takes 10% of whatever she makes acting and donates it. So I, after, after that happened, I started to do that and there was definitely a part of ooh, like money. Ooh. Yeah. But then it's also fun. You like find organizations that you care about. Yeah. And and I, you know, you can set up, I now I like set up a recurring, donation to the LA food Bank, which I love because they're very like, what you give them, they give. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? There's none of the mm-hmm. Not a lot of the politics of it, but, but in a way that felt like a manifestation for me. Mm-hmm. Of being like, I will continue to make money as an actor because I am giving money. Mm-hmm. It is, you know what I mean? It is it makes, it is less white knuckling. Mm-hmm. Money scarcity mindset thing. Yeah. It's also a Christian practice too, right. That, that 10%, the tithing, right. I grew up You do that every Sunday. It's like you give to the basket, it gets passed around. Is that what that's called? Tithing? That's it is like part of the mm-hmm. Oh yeah. It looks like 10%. That's like in the Bible. Yeah. Is like what Jesus. Ass, suggest. Oh, okay. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, I did not know that. Yeah. So it creates like a little communal, it's supposed to create like a little communal pot for the church. Yeah. Yeah. And like it has, you know, it definitely gets abused at times, but Right. You know, not everyone abuses it. You know, a lot of churches do a lot of good. Yeah. Um, but yeah, so like I've, I've been trying to, this has been my past year too, where I'm like, I'm trying to get more comfortable with yeah. Money. Money, yeah. Money and spirituality and like energy and what does that mean? Um, nice. But yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. As you're talking, I'm like. All of these doors can feel like they're so shut. Like the money door can feel like really scary, and that door is shut. The sexuality door can be like, that's shut. They can all close themselves off, weirdly. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like from each other. Yeah. I think it's like you're, you're like, I feel like you're doing a great job explaining that you can like open the doors and that. Mm-hmm. All these things. Yeah. And it actually works better. Your spirituality works better when it's connected to your creativity and money and sexuality and like religion just is, and it's not, it doesn't have to be so closed. I don't know. I'm like, oh yeah. That's a great, I like that metaphor. It's almost E each one you were like, something's not right, someone, I'm just gonna open it up. Open it, and see and figure out for yourself really. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When you started burlesque, was that another sort of were, did you feel odd about that in terms of religion? Mm-hmm. Having to overcome that? Yeah. It. It was definitely, so it was post breakup? Post breakup for a year. Mm. Okay. And, um, I was really struggling with it. It was a really, it was a hard time. Mm. And IL dancing is a part of me. Yeah. DI grew up in ballet and jazz and tap. Um, I always wanted to do like hip hop or like more funky stuff, but I was not allowed to do that. But I was sexualized a little bit. It was too sexualized. Okay. Yeah. But, um, but anyway, I have a lot to say. But anyway, um, so I was like, I just need to dance again. I don't care what it is. I just need to dance again. So I just bopped around and like looking for. Classes that were affordable. Mm-hmm. And, um, burlesque was always like it. I had never watched it before. Yeah. I had never seen burlesque. All I knew was like De Devonte did burlesque. I knew, you know, Betty Page. Like I knew Pinups and I knew that there was dancing involved, but I didn't even know what it looked like. Mm-hmm. But I knew it didn't require a ton of technique to start off. Right. It doesn't require a lot of flexibility. There's a lot of variety in it. Yes. Yeah. And, um, I also knew there was like alternative burlesque out there. Um, so, which that appealed to me'cause it was like humorous. Yeah. Which I liked. It's a bit more yeah. Acting has like sketch comedy vibes to it, but also it's like sexy, which to me, like I'm a funny person and I like making people laugh. So I was like, that connects to me. Mm-hmm. That's the way for me to experience my sexuality because especially like my ex relationship was very sexually traumatic. Mm-hmm. So it was also me trying to like. Heal that back, I have to heal that also. Mm-hmm. And just to, to discover it for myself and to reconnect with my body specifically. So there was this class, I'm gonna shout them out. Empowerment In Heels. Um, Empowerment In Heels was really great. It was like a$20 class and it's every Sunday. Mm-hmm. And it's improv based, meaning we just stretch together. Mm-hmm. And then we do a couple across the floor exercises that are like a bit improvy. Mm-hmm. And then we learn a little routine at the end that you can like. Elaborate on Uhhuh, and then you go across the street afterwards and you can we usually, like there's a bar and you just grab a drink, grab some food, grab whatever, and we just sit and chat and check in with one another. And then what appealed to me the most is that they host these open stages where it's like an open mic performers and you could just do whatever you want. You have five minutes. And it was really free and opening. So I was like, that sounds amazing. It sounds so amazing. So amazing. So I was like, that is exactly what I'm looking for. I'm looking for something low stakes. Yeah. But focuses on community. Do they still exist? They're still okay color. They're, they're, they're doing this. Oh God, so good. Yeah. Yeah, they're great. They're great. And they'll, they'll throw on shows and stuff and, you know, some more ticketed shows now, but the open stages are always free. Mm-hmm. And it's, yeah, sign up first, come first serve. I think it's 20 performers or. Yeah. It's like it's a good number of performers I get to perform. So it's, it's been nice and I have found great friends there that I am like so stoked to know now and like people who are just Yeah. Prioritize community over competition. That's our like slogan. Yes. I love, which I love. And it's really hard to find in the like performance world too, you know? Totally. Totally. It's just look, we're all here trying to be creatives together and like some people are gonna be better than you. Some people are gonna be worse than you and it doesn't matter. Yes, as long as you're just like showing your stuff. Like you only, again,'cause it's creativity and artistry is so personal to you. Mm-hmm. Which is hard not to take things personally, right? Because it's yeah. It's oh, what, what it is me? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Um, but to have the community that's surrounding you, that loves you no matter what, that's been really. Lovely to find again.'cause that's something I miss with the church, right? Yeah. Is like that communal. Yeah. So, um, and I like that this dance class wasn't just dance class'cause dance is one thing, but then being able to talk about your emotions afterwards has been really great. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I love that. Yeah. So that started and at first I just joined that class where I just to start stretching again and dancing again. And then I was like, oh, maybe I can perform.'cause I started mm-hmm. Going to shows and I was like, okay. Like it's, it wasn't like, it's not 100% resonating for me. Mm-hmm. But I like how much freedom I can have. Yeah. Like I can really do whatever I want. Yeah. Um. So my burlesque, I'm ferreal fatal. Okay. That's my name. Ferreal. Fatal. I feral. Fatal. Okay. Um, my first performance, I was like a possum. Oh my God. Has what? Yes. We need to go falling in love. Yeah. She has developed into a rat. Oh. So I'm a little bit more of a rat. I'm a brown punk rat. Oh my gosh. And, um, and it really hit off like I did my first performance and I had three producers come up to me afterwards and we're like, are you available these dates? And I'm like, wow. I work full-time at a theater. I'm just doing this for shits and gigs right now. So. Oh my gosh. What? No, you can hear us. Um, what? I love it. Yeah. I was like, I don't have time. But, um. So, yeah, it's really started like kicking off and then, um, I was like, okay. And it reminded me how much I love performing too. Yeah. Because that's what I grew up doing. I stopped performing because I tore all the ligaments in my Oh, knee ski. Okay. Like senior year of high school, so, or junior year of high school. And I really only went into costumes because it was something that I like, kind of enjoyed. And my mom did them. So I was like, my mom was like the costume mama of our theater group. So I was like, okay. I like to style, I like style, you know? Right. And, um, so you kind of thought you were gonna be a dancer? I, yeah. I really wanted to be like a ballerina was like my top, that was like my baby dream. Mm-hmm. Um, when I got into high school, I didn't know if I wanted to be a professional performer because I didn't see anyone who looked like me, who danced professionally, honestly. Um, even though I loved to do it. Um. But I was like, oh, maybe I'm a chef. Maybe I'm an event coordinator doing something like that. Like I love life performance though. Mm-hmm. Um, and I went into theater. I never saw myself as a theater kid, which is so ironic. Like it was truly like last year that I was like Sarah Pink. You've been in theater since like fourth grade. Right. And you've been doing it professionally now for 10 years. Acceptance is the first step. Yes. I think you're a theater guy. And I was like, um. So you were acting in theater? Yeah. So yeah, I acted all throughout high school and stuff. Okay. Yeah. And then even when I went to Pepperdine, I would like volun, I would be like, Hey, I know my costumes, but if you guys are doing like independent student things, like I would love to perform Uhhuh. So you know, I did some like bit spots on stuff. Uh, um, I get I was always that jazzy sidekick, like that was my niche. The jazzy sidekick like animal person, um, hair fatal has been inside you the entire time. The entire time, yeah. Which act actually, please. So I, I also to consider my burlesque drag because Oh, okay. Fun. Because it's just how I'm, I don't look like myself, like I'm not just putting on glam makeup and mm-hmm. Even though that, that could be drag too, but, um. It's, it is within me. It is something that like, has been this like person inside of me this entire time. Like this person who loves to get dressed up and create characters, like my favorite Halloween costumes growing up were just original characters I would make up. Mm-hmm. You know? Yes. And just create, I love that. And those are the, the costumes that also got the most like praise in a way where people were like, oh my God, I remember that costume. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, oh cool. Um, so I don't know, like it was,'cause I think like with costuming and styling in general, it also connects to spirituality. Mm-hmm. In that, like for me, I've always dressed very emotionally mm-hmm. In that I just dress how I feel that day. Mm-hmm. Which is, um, goes into costuming, which is why I'm a costume designer now because I think costume and character Right. Are so closely linked because it's that spirituality of that character. Yeah. And what they're going through, where they are. In that moment. Um, so like with drag, you're kind of like cosplaying yourself in this weird way where you're like, what is like my ultimate self right now? What is my self what do I wanna express to like the highest campiest degree? Yeah, right. So you, do you feel like you take an element of yourself or you, it's like mm-hmm. Its own personality that you're, that's like within you? I think it's I think it's me exaggerated. Mm-hmm. I think it's me turned up to an 11. Yeah. You know, so like feral the rat, like she is she's grungy, you know, she's imperfect. Like even the way I make the costumes, I don't even think very far in like how to make it. I'm like, I'm just gonna figure it out. Yeah. Because if I think too hard about it, I get scared and I don't make things. I'm like, well, I don't know how to do it the proper way, so I'm not gonna do it. But I'm like, well, what would feral do? I was like, feral. The punk rat would just do it. I don't know. She would do it. She would just do it wrong and you know, fix it later, you know? Yeah. It's become like an iconic piece of my artistic career now. And, um, I also have a wizard character, which I love and it's some, and it's a character who is kind of like non-binary and I didn't even mean for it to be that way. Mm-hmm. Like a lot of my art, I just I'm like, I don't know. It's just screaming at me, so I'm just gonna do it. Mm-hmm. And, um, I think it's funny usually yeah, because the wizard dances to like Taylor Swift. Love that. Um, love it. But they have boobs. Right. And I just didn't even think about wearing a chest plate. Like I was like, that wasn't even in my mind to make myself a man wizard, uhhuh. But I do have a beard Uhhuh, you know? Yeah. Yeah. But what didn't even cross my mind. I was just like, I don't know, I need to cover my boobs. Oh. I'll make like armor, you know, like armor lingerie and um, sounds like you're like discovering it as you just kind of like let it up and you're like, yes. And hence the dancing too. Mm-hmm. So during this time I'm also dancing right by my tree. Mm-hmm. And I'm like just, I just listen to songs, what everyone's like, getting stuck in my head and I just let my movements. Speak. And like I was noticing during that time I was doing a lot more like masculine movement. Okay. Which is something that I was like, what is this? This is something I've, I've never moved this way in my life. Yeah. But I'm also not trying to think about how I'm moving, I'm not trying to perform for someone, right. Because I'm just by myself. Mm-hmm. So I'm just like, how does my body want to move? And why does it want to move that way when it's hearing this song, when it's connecting to the song? Why does it want to move like that? Um, and so yeah, through that I, I find a lot of routines and stuff like that, which is just fun. But, um, yeah, I don't know. So like I am a wizard who, my newest one is Frankie Frankenstein. Oh yeah. So Frankenstein has also been like a big monster that I have always connected to. I read it in high school. Mm-hmm. And I was like, this book is incredible. I played, I did a dance theater production. It was called a Frankenstein, but I played Victor Frankenstein who grade what. It was actually great. I was actually like very interesting play. Yeah. I did a lot of dance theater. That's fun in New York.'cause dance is just an amazing tool. It's, I'm surprised that people don't use it in theater more. It's if people are dancing and they really are in their bodies, it. It is captivating. I mean, it is, it's ly captivating. And it doesn't, and, and like I think acting can be so subjective in a way that dance, like if a person's just really dancing mm-hmm. You're in, you know? Yeah. And, and I think even a person can be a good actor, but you can be like, well, it reminds me of this person or whatever. It can, you can get taken out of it. And dance is just so immersive. It's so immersive. I really don't know why. I think theaters need to do more dance. I think so too. I think, um, you know, where I work now, we're doing a lot more like productions with dance incorporated in it or like dance, like movement. And I think the pieces are stronger. Yeah.'cause of it. Yeah. Because yeah. Just like singing in musical theater, like Right. It like extrapolates the emotion to like the 10th degree. Yeah. Dance does that too. Yeah. But it's just not spoken. And for me I don't really understand lyrics very well. Mm-hmm. Um, so I'm more So you're more like mu yours is like the music behind it. Music, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Um, the music and the movement, right? Yeah. And how it makes me move. I've always been a mover, like Yeah. Which, which is why I was like, I know I'm fat, but I am stronger than you and I can move better than you, I promise. Yeah. Um, did, do you have to, so do your parents know that you do burlesque? Yes. Okay. They do. Have they ever come to a show? No, and I don't, I don't think they will and I don't need them to. Do you want that? Yeah. Do they, they do they talk to you about it or are they, like, how is your relationship with them now? They, I mean, I would say I still call my mom a lot. Yeah. We definitely, um, it's. It's not as close as I want to be. I think with my dad especially,'cause he's such a spiritual guy, obviously. Mm-hmm. Um, I, I keep reminding them, especially now with what's going on in the world Yeah. With this attack on like queerness and Yeah. Um, just thinking differently. I just keep reminding them that I'm like, look, I am queer. Yeah. I am non-binary and I do drag and burlesque, uhhuh and on top of being a successful, doing my taxes, having it all together, having a good relationship with you guys person. Yeah. Right. You know, right. Like it can be it all. Yeah. And, um, I think it's hard for them to process like my mom, like with my wizard character, right? Mm-hmm. Like when I was telling my mom, I was like, dude, I, I do drag. That's what I do. Yeah. So like when you hear your friends attacking drag, know that they're attacking me. Yeah. Not just this random drag queen that Yeah. Um, you think is like poisoning children. Right. Um, when it's and she was like, well, you don't think you're a man you don't dress up like a man. And I was like, well, I, I dress up like a wizard and I had a wizard birthday party that they attended, and while I was like, I was wearing a beard, like I was in costume. Yeah. Like we were all in costume at that party. Yeah. Right. I think Phil came, did you? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I was like, I was like, so she was like, well, like that's different. I was like, it's not, yeah, it's not. It's just just I'm dancing now with that same costume on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm doing a bit like, yeah, it's a performance. It's a performance and it's um, and through that it's, I'm exploring something inside of me that I might not understand at the time, but the more I do it and the more I examine it. I understand more things about myself, you know? Um, so, you know. Did she like hear that? Was she able to hear that? I think so, yeah. I don't know. I mean, she's also very conservative, so like sex in general is a very you know, closely kept to the chest. Yeah. So, you know, she does have a problem with it being like, you know, she's like, why? Like, why are you a rat? You know, you know, she's like, why does it have to be like a nasty thing? God? I was like, I don't know. It's something I just need to explore. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And she tries, she understand again with that art. Like her, her dad was an artist. Her brother's an artist. Mm-hmm. And her brother, my uncle Fernie, he does a lot of like dark art. Yeah. Okay. He, he made like haunted houses and we helped make these haunted houses. And so it's just so he's always exploring a lot of darkness. My, my mom's parents, they both died in a tragic plane accident. Oh my gosh. So he was like 14 when that happened. Oh. So he he's processing a lot. Right. Wow. And so is she like, and she had to process it in a different way because she was immediately then his mom.'cause she had to Yeah. Take him on and, wow. How old was she when that happened? She was 25. Oh my, wow. And she had just married my dad. Oh my, my gosh. Wow. So they had to take in her little brother and put him through like high school and college. Wow. Um, yeah. So it's so I mean, my parents are awesome and like they've been such good, you know, examples to me. Yeah. Especially as a couple who, you know, have gone through really awful hard things. Um, but I think with that, I. Yeah. I didn't grow up with that exact same trauma, so I have a lot more freedom Right. To explore in myself. Mm-hmm. Um, that's not so clouded by that type of sadness. You know? I have different traumas, obviously, but I think it's, it doesn't make sense to my mom still. Yeah. Like, why I do what I do. Mm-hmm. I'm, she, I feel like, I don't know if this is true, but I feel like she thinks like I'm ruining myself a little bit. Mm. Interesting. And so I feel like I have to prove to them through my professional life that I'm like, but see, I have it all together. Like professionally, I'm very professional. I'm working at one of the highest paying theaters in Los Angeles. Mm-hmm. Which is not saying anything like, that's huge's huge. That's huge, you know? One of my shows just opened I assisted a design on a show, and it just opened off Broadway, like in New York. Yeah. That's amazing. That's amazing. And it, it's significant. Yeah. That is, it's mom, I don't think you understand, like that's Yeah. That's huge. Yeah. But it's funny that you have to show there's like this idea that if you, if you're an artist, especially one who's gonna be a rat, you know? Yeah. On stage, just the idea that you, you, you're, I don't know. I think there might be, especially on maybe a conservative lens that like, artists are like, don't have it together, and don't, and so that's very interesting because I, I, I understand this logic of no, but look at my, look at what I've accomplished Uhhuh, and and, and both, and it can all be this, it could all work together. Mm-hmm. In a way that maybe I think everyone, or not everyone, maybe again, more conservative lens is thinking it's one or the other. Right. Maybe, you know, it's a little more black and white, at least for my parents. Right. It's a little more black and white. Where it's like it's evil or it's irresponsible. Mm-hmm. So, you know, you're gonna fall into this dark path. And I am like, I find it is actually making me more spiritually balanced. Yeah. And I see that because my artwork is becoming so, it is blooming. Yeah. And I, I feel so much more connected to myself and to my body and to my community around me. Mm-hmm. And to the world around me because I'm able to like make this artwork now. Yeah. It's almost like it it is like telling you that it's working. Right. Like in a weird way. Yeah. I think clue when it's that your spirituality is like in a good place if your art is in a good place.'cause it's so tied for you. Yeah. Yeah.'cause I think it's just, again, it's that meditation. I think art is meditation in that way too.'cause you're just, it's just you and your spirit being like, let's. Get this out. I don't know what it, you know, do you feel like the trauma with the ex do you feel like you've moved past it now? Have you talked to him or like how is that, what's that? I think that, so it was so funny'cause I was actually thinking about this the other day too. Um, I think it's, it's always gonna be a hurt because it was pretty significant what happened. Yeah. Um, he was, again, my first boyfriend, my first like love. Mm-hmm. And we dated for well we technically only dated for three years, but we were together for five years. Yeah. And there was a big betrayal that happened. We got engaged twice. Oh my God. He, he proposed three times. Oh. It was a very, wow. Yeah, it was a very heavy, heavy relationship. A lot of hurt happened. Yeah. And, and you were young. And I was young, yeah. And I was also exploring a life, like a different type of life that was just outside of Christianity for the first time. So I was really examining what are my values? What are the values I was taught and just listened to, but what resonates with me and what doesn't? Yeah. So it's like really sorting through that. Um, and I feel like I'm, I'm at peace with it now. Yeah. Where I'm not like crying about him, you know, Yeah. I'm, I don't think I would do, if he would call me and ask for help, I would have to think about it. Yeah. But I would probably not do it myself. Yeah. You know, type of thing. Mm-hmm. But I was like, I'll find you help, but I won't do it myself. Yeah. Right. Um, that's just good boundaries. I think it's good boundaries. I think like I just, I'm, I'm over it. Yeah. At some point, like you, you're still goes, there's always that emotion. There's, it's still there, you know? Yeah. Um. But that makes sense too though. Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of the, oh,'cause a lot of the, the trauma was about like being like sexually dirty, like for me was something that was like a lot of the trauma that was instilled in me through that relationship. And then it just reinforced all this like purity culture that I was taught, like growing up. Interesting. Was he religious? No. Okay. Okay. He was just jealous. Oh, okay, okay. Which was very hard. He, he, at first he was like, oh, I'm so relaxed. I'm so cool. I don't care if you're hairy. I don't care. Then two years in, he was like, actually all of this super matters to me and I don't think you're attractive. Oh. Like literally told me, I'm like a four. And I was like, what? Yeah. Yeah. I was like, what? Two years in to someone that I was like, oh, like we've been like living together. Oh. And he was like, yeah, like I just can't get into it. Like it, it was really bad. It was really bad. Where I was like, wow, I am actually ugly. And I thought I found someone who loved me and the one person who I thought loves me actually doesn't even think I'm like passing like God at a five. Oh my God. Wow. You know what I'm saying? I mean, first of all, you're gorgeous. I know you. Thank you. I know that now people throw money at me. That is that is really psychologically damaging though. Yeah. I mean, especially to have a trust and have it be like ripped in half like that. Yeah. And it felt kind of like, for no reason it was, it was really, it was really odd and and then, yeah, just like me being sexual in my past beforehand became a huge problem. Mm mm Yeah. So it sounds like a him problem. It was a him problem. Yeah. It truly was a him problem. And that was something I have completely understood now. Yes. Um, yeah. And I guess what, has what was hard for me to get over too,'cause I knew I was queer. Mm-hmm. Um, even before getting into that relationship. So it was something that like, I just never had the ability to explore. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And he really put,'cause for a while we were like trying to do open, trying to do poly and all this stuff. Yeah. Got it. And he was like, you should date women, like only women. And I was like, and I hated that'cause I was like, I just wanna explore. Yeah. I don't know who I like, but it's it's not just women and like it's all pushing that on me. Yeah. Yeah. If you could date whoever you want, I'm gonna date whoever I want. Yeah. That's, there's a gross thing there. There's a grossness to it. That sounds jealous there, like you said. Yeah. It was just, there's a lot of jealousy. Yeah. So so for a while then I was like, trying to be like, well, maybe I don't date any women, you know? And then mm-hmm. Now I'm dating another non-binary, like trans masculine person. And it, it is been great.'cause it's just cool. All the gender norms are thrown out the window. Right? Yeah. So we don't have to address that just person to person. Yeah. How, how do you wanna pay for this dinner? You know, which has been really nice. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. And because I do have a very dominating personality, I would say. Like I'm a very strong presence. Mm-hmm. But at the same time, I like being like the prettiest in the room, you know? And it's I think it's this nice now dating someone who also, you know, has a very like. Different perspective on gender? Very open perspective on gender. Yeah. Um, I don't feel like I'm overstepping. I don't feel like I'm like, oh, I opened the door for them. Are they gonna take that as an offense? Oh my God, you know, I'm not thinking about that. Yeah. I'm just like, I'm being nice to this person and they say that I'm being nice to them. You know? Yeah. Which is nice. I offer you this because I had two relationships that were not to that degree, but were damaging Uhhuh, and I was over it, but I didn't like, there was like some stuck there. Mm-hmm. So I did this forgiveness practice Uhhuh that I read about, and I, I coupled it with yoga, but I feel like you could do it with dance uhhuh where it was just like, the sessions were sort of devoted to this person and you kind of go through you, you feel the feelings, like you bring yourself back, feel the feelings for a limited amount of time, two minutes, you know, a song mm-hmm. And then you go through like why you basically, uh, give them reasons why it could have been, you're just kind of inventing the story of why that happened. Mm-hmm. Like maybe they were queer Maybe his mother was, was dying It's just like justifying it for them and then it's, and then the third step is thanking them for what they taught you. and I didn't real like I did the process, not realizing that that. That I needed that. Yeah. That is not dissimilar to what I do in my dance. It's that exact same thing where it's yeah, you're processing.'cause like with your body, like with yoga, right? Like you're processing like your breath. Yeah. And like you're stretching things. Like sometimes it's I'll massage. I I did that with um. Um, I did a bath actually. Mm. And it was a really big, very momentous bath for me. Yeah. But, um, I did a bath and I massaged every inch of my body. Mm. I just went, I started from the top of my head and I just made sure I touched everything and massaged everything and it released a lot of trauma. Yeah. It it brought up a lot of memories that I didn't even know I was holding onto mm-hmm. Things that I was like, I have not thought about that since like elementary school, but I can see how this ties into this exact moment. Um, and yeah, I had music playing in the background and it was just like, it was a really big moment for me and it helped me process a lot and it helped me. Yeah. Where I was like, you could have done this for this reason. Like it wasn't because of me. Right. Mm-hmm. Because that's like what you're trying to, it was like, am I, you know, the reason and. And also like forgiving someone for your sake. Yes. Like it doesn't matter. And this was, you know, oh, this book I was, that's really, that's who it's for. It's true for yourself. It's for yourself. Yeah. It was like not calling them and being like, I forgive you.'cause it's not about them. And then once I realized that, I was like, oh, it helps me to give them reason to make it make sense for me, even if it's not true. Yeah. Giving yourself your own piece or maybe not, you know, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I didn't realize how much of that, you know, that sticks with you, those things. Yeah, it really does. I like, um, so these two rings actually, uh, fabulous rings, but yeah. Thank you. My ring collection is strong. Um, these are, I bought these as engagement rings to myself to represent and to replace like the engagements that we had. Wow. I that, and they coincidentally, I didn't buy'em for this reason, I just liked'em. Mm-hmm. But to me now they're like the new moon and the full moon. Yeah. So it's like that cycle of like rebirth and renewal one's. Like what? So just so audience know. Oh yeah, sorry. Yeah. One is like a pearl. Is that a pearl? Yeah. One's a pearl and then one's an onyx or, yeah, one's an onyx and they're like the same size. The Onyx has like a, you know, like a gothic setting and the pearl has just like little gold dots around it. I love that. It almost look like the ring is one ring. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wear em on, I wear'em on the same finger, like two in little engagement rings. So like the, they're like kind of, they offset one another. Um, and it just, and I didn't do it on purpose. It's just one of those things where I was like, I wanna wear both these rings. And I had other cooler rings to replace the other fingers with, and I was like, oh, these kinda actually fit on the same ring finger. And then the more I wore it, I was like, wow, I just dislike the new moon and the full moon. Yeah. Like they kept reminding me of that. And then, because I hated that, they actually reminded me of my ex. Yeah. Um, but then I was like, it is about this process of yeah. Rebirth and renewal and what did I learn from that experience? Right? Mm-hmm. And it was that like, I can come out of something that I thought was so right for me, like I said yes twice. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. Like I was like, let's do it man. Like I forgive you completely. Like it's fine. Like everyone goes through some tough, you know, shit, and you know, I mean, I'm here for you. Right. That, that radical Christian Love is something that I, I do resonate with and I'm like, it's fine. Like forgiveness is something I truly believe in, and like reinventing yourself is something I believe in. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah. So anyway, so those, those have been my, my big like journey, which I love now that they represent. And I love that. It's like a piece of costume. Yeah. That's amazing. Doing it for yourself. Even doing it for myself. Doing it for myself. Yeah. So where would you say you are now, like in your spiritual journey? Do you feel like you are struggling with anything spiritually or you feel pretty like you got it? I feel like I, I have dipped out of spirituality a little bit, but it's something I've now dipped back into. Okay. Because I've, I've noticed that in myself'cause I got just busy. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, and I was like, man, like I haven't, like truly just like relaxed and danced in a little bit and or, you know, I haven't done like a tarot pool and journaled about it. Mm-hmm. Um, in a while. So, uh, which a while is like a month at this point, but um, I don't know. I, I feel pretty solid in that. I feel like I'm kind of really forming my beliefs on the world a little bit more. I feel a lot more comfortable with spirituality now and being able to be like. Just tap into it. Mm-hmm. Um, I don't feel so, I don't know, like for a long time I was like, is this the devil? You know? I'm also dealing with that. Am I just being called by the devil? Um, interesting. You know,'cause that was like a big thing growing up, is that anything outside of God is the devil. Mm-hmm. But then like how do you tell what's God and what's the devil? Um, yeah. It's, you have to work so hard to undo that. It sounds like you've had to work. Yeah. I mean, I've only, I've seen it in Philip in some ways. I mean, when we were together last time, he actually like, let Olivia pull a card for him. And I was like, what? Yeah. I mean, I was like, didn't think I would see the day, you know? Yeah. Like I talked to, I talked to V about Tara too. Oh, you did? Yeah. He was like, wait, wait deal. I was like, yeah. Because the first time I asked him, he was like, no way. No way no how? Right. Right, right. Uh, yeah. So I think it's opened his mind a little bit. Of like kind of what you're saying, like the journal, a journal prompt instead of it being Yeah. But yeah, that seems so tough to undo that stuff. Yeah. And it's so funny'cause you, like you said, you had like your version of God has you reframed that. Mm-hmm. But it's interesting that even with that, that God mm-hmm. You know, not gone but you know, yeah. That the image of the devil is still that's such a crazy, you know, shows you how like deep embedded, well, reminds him Josh, like that was Josh. The last guest we had on, he was like, every so often he's still but maybe Hell's real. Maybe he isn't that crazy though. Hard me, like I don't believe in hell like that is because I think what actually what helped me start my opening up my. Christianity was back at Pepperdine the first day of class. We got to choose an elective. Right? A fun elective class people, people chose like Harry Potter and you know, like reading it like literary and there was like a, you know, like a lore of the rings. It was like political communications class anyway, through Lo The Rings. Yeah. Through Lord the Rings. Right. It's like learning, like political communication. And um, and I was like, I wanna do spiritual formation. That'll be fun. That'll be fun. But for me it was, I was like, I wanna do that deep stuff. And like the first day of class, my teacher was like, he post the question, he was like, would you follow God? The what? God That you know, if hell wasn't real, if you knew for sure hell wasn't real, would you still follow him? Mm-hmm. And we had to go home and write about it. And I was like, uh, not really. Yeah. Yeah. Because I don't know like my, the Christian. Anyway.'cause like again, growing up as a woman, like Christianity's not really for women's freedoms, right? So I was like, I was like, mm. Yeah. I don't know. I, I guess I wouldn't, I guess I wouldn't. Mm-hmm. So from that moment I was like, I was, I don't know, it just really made me think and I, yeah. I don't think Hell's real. I don't, I think just I don't think heaven is necessarily real. I don't think it's good and bad. I think it's all the same place. Okay. Yeah. You know, like nature, you was shared earlier, like nature is, yeah. Nature's not good nor evil. Right? Yeah. Right. I think nature just is. Mm-hmm. It can be cruel and it can be nurturing. Yeah. But it is also, it's both those things at the same time. Mm-hmm. You know, and truly what I think spirituality does, and this is why I think it's important for people to have a strong spiritual practice, whatever it is, okay. I think it connects you to the world outside of you. It connects your inside to your outside and it brings reverence into your world. Like you start to revere things, which I is important.'cause once we stop caring for the world around us, that's when you get, that's when it gets really dangerous, right? That's when it gets really selfish worldview. You know, like I try to clean my room every new moon, right? To be like. That is just it's a new moon, new, you know, cycle. And it also benefits my mental health because my room is now at least a little bit cleaner than it was before. Yeah. Which helps me function day to day. Mm-hmm. So like it's a practical thing for me'cause it keeps me on a schedule to clean my house and on a natural cycle. On a natural cycle. And who cares if it's connected with the moon? Right. Like I just I just think, again, spirituality is really important and that's why like I don't poo poo Christians or poo Catholics or whatever. It's I think it's really important that we also understand that people also need different spiritual practices that resonate with them. Mm-hmm. Yeah. My great aunt is extremely Catholic and she needs that structure. That structure has helped her through a lot of like intense life situations. Mm-hmm. And. You know, and you know, Catholicism is so consistent, you know? Yeah. And when your life is so chaotic, some people really need that consistency. And I think that's why I mean, I studied world Christianity, so you see Catholicism really took off in Latin America. Mm-hmm. Um, and'cause, you know, it was, it was torn apart, you know? And there was a lot of chaos that happened, like pretty recently. And, it helps people with. Finding consistency in a life of chaos. Yeah, totally. Versus like me, I have always been a very ebb and flowy person. So like my spiritual practice does develop with me as I grow, and sometimes I'm like, Nope, I really need structure right now. Mm-hmm. And I go into a very structured mode and sometimes I'm like, whatever. Yeah. Whatever. You know? Um, you know. So what would you say your spiritual practices are right now? We have the dancing under a tree. Tree. We have the tar cards, dancing, tarot cards. I also, if I have a feeling that I get really stuck with and I need to. Go process through it. Something I truly do, and this has helped me every single time, is, um, I journal, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then I see a sentence that really resonates with me. So I, I actually brought a journal with me today to show you like what it looks like. Oh, okay. Okay. Um, so I wrote something and it said I have a deep ache. Mm-hmm. And the deep ache was meant to be like a yearning for this person that I was, I'm now seeing. But it was like, oh, like my body aches for you, you know, like mm-hmm. Romantic. But I realized that I also just have a deep ache. I have a physical ache in my back. I have a phys, I have this ache for the world, right? Mm-hmm. Where like ache is both like a sadness, but also you know, like it's unrest. So I just took that sentence and I write it down. Just on top of itself. Mm-hmm. Like over and over and over again. I spiraled my book around and I, and I listen to a, I listen to songs that are fuzzy for, I call them fuzzy songs. Mm-hmm. So there's no lyrics and it doesn't, it's songs without even a ton of emotion. It's almost like droney songs, not like drones. There's still it's like soundtracks a lot of the times, you know, that just help my mind like meander. Okay. But it doesn't push it into one feeling. Um, and I have a playlist just dedicated to those types of, you've done that. I'm very curious. It's to hear what that sounds like. Yeah. I love this. It's not like frequencies is it? Or is it? No, it's it's different songs. Um, there's a lot of synth in them. Okay. And it's almost um, like one of my workers described it as like a luminal space sounding songs. Ooh, okay. Where you're just like, kind of like, yeah. There in waiting um. Like I, I notice like a lot of movies that deal with space. Okay. Right. Like those types of soundtracks where it's you know, I get, I guess I think I what I'm talking about. Yeah. Yeah. There's one song in particular that has like a rocking chair beat to it. Oh, okay. So it's like, it's dun dun. So it, I notice it kind of like, it's almost like a ticking clock, like that tempo. Um, and that one really does get me into almost like a hypnotic state in a way where I can drown it out and I can just focus on what I'm writing. And then it's it makes me, I'm like, why am I clinging onto the sentence? And you know, you just start thinking about this sentence and what does oh, I have a deep ache. What does that mean? What am I feeling? Why, you know, what does that relate to? Um. You know, and right now it's relating to my love life. It's, yeah, it's relating to my, like the politics in this world. Mm-hmm. It's relating to my family and like this dissonance I'm feeling with my family and but also you know, it's a, you know, and a physical thing and just yeah. And it really does help me get unstuck when you're, so, so when you're writing it and you're like, you're kind of like, I'm, I'm, I'm imagining you writing it on your journal and you said you were even turning your book around. Mm-hmm. So it's like even writing it on top of the words, it's almost uh, a tornado mm-hmm. Of this sentence. Mm-hmm. And are you, as you're like. You keep writing the same sentence over and over again. Do you then start writing out your discoveries or is that more just an internal thing? It's just an internal thing. Okay. Okay. Okay. I will sometimes journal after. Okay. If it's something that, it's like a big breakthrough, but it's usually like a bullet point because I don't wanna unless I really feel unsettled and then I'll write another long entry. Okay. But sometimes just something in my phone where I'm like, I wanna talk about this with my therapist. And it's you know, like ache, you know, world politics, family, whatever. Right. No, I get it. But um, and just write what came up for me. Um. And yeah, so and I keep one sentence clear so I know what that artwork and it's like an art piece in the end. Yeah. Cool. What that artwork is about. Um, and all the, it looks like a nest in the end, and I do it in Oh yeah. In cursive. And sometimes I do it like really neat. Sometimes I do it really sloppy. Oh my God. I can't wait to see it. Yeah. And I just like let it, let it tumble out of me. Okay. I love that. Yeah. We should do that. I love that. I'm, I'm so down. How frequently do you, or it's just, it's like on a case by case basis, like if you feel stuck. It sounds like it. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah, it's a case to case basis. I, I journal a lot. That is definitely like a spiritual practice I have. Mm-hmm. And sometimes it's very poetic. I find those to be the most, uh, revealing things for me. Mm-hmm. It's once I start going tripping into poetry versus processing time and date. Um, but I, I started doing it in college for an art sketchbook and I just didn't know what to write that day. Mm-hmm. But I had a sentence that just kept pop, like going over and over again in my mind and it's something I journaled earlier and then I was like, I'm just gonna start writing it. And I just started writing it over and over again and it was brought up so much. So I do it whenever I feel stuck. Okay. Okay. I love that. I love that too. But I'll send you the playlist. Yeah, I got the playlist. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Well this has been truly lovely. Oh, so great. Is there anything you wanna plug? Like your burlesque shows? Oh my gosh. Do you have any coming up? I mean, if you wanna follow my burlesque journey, I mean, it's like my art, my art journey. It's kinda like my art account turning into it. Great. And you have so much time. I mean, I, as I'm listening to you, I know we're wrapping this up, but like it's okay. You really do tap into all types of. Art. Yeah. It's kind of crazy. Like physically you sound like you need to express it physically and writing it and also physical with the clo. Mm-hmm. It's great with clothes. Yeah. I cook. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Um, yeah. So you have multimedia artist. Yeah. Yeah. You're a maker. I'm a maker. A maker. I create, and that is something I've, yeah. I've identified since high school.'cause people are like, oh, you're an artist. I'm like, I think I'm, it's like bigger. It's bigger than that. Um, but yes. Um, and yeah. Yeah. So I, yeah. I, I totally, no, I totally resonate. No, I, it is, it is true. I do everything. Um, that's great. So, yeah. So your burlesque show. My burlesque is, my Instagram is xo, xo I think under feral, under fatal exo xo. Feral, fatal. We'll put it in the notes. It might be periods or something. I forget. We'll, we'll find, well follow. Yes. Um, I would plug empowerment in heels. If you're looking for a. Um, it's accepting to all genders, all bodies, all races. Like they just don't, they don't care. As long as you're going there in sincerity, that's what they care about. Um, it's a great time again, just to like physically move with people and yeah, just stretching and listening to your body, right. Listening to something that a lot of us have, um, learned to mistrust. Mm-hmm. Um, it's been awesome. And then I do recommend going across the street. You don't have to buy anything. Mm-hmm. Um, but it's really great just to plug in and, um, yeah, I guess those are like my two biggest plugs. My normal, my, my other account is Party City Skeleton. Okay. That's like my normal day to day. I also, I post a lot of my like, fine art there. Oh, great. Um. And that's yeah, that's like my other, if you don't wanna see Boobies and butts, I heard. Um, yeah. Party City skeleton and yeah. Ah, amazing. Great. Thank you so, so much. Thank you for coming much on. Of course. Thanks for having me. I love talking about this. Obviously I'll talk about this forever. Yeah. No, so do we. Well spies. Until next time, be sane. Live. Well, you got it. All right. Bye. Bye. Bye.