Will Mueller and the Trip That Changed Everything

Hello Spodies! In this episode, Ari and Olivia recap how making art out of journaling went for them. We then discuss our reasons for choosing acting when we were younger, and if those reasons hold any meaning! 

We then bring on our first guest of season two, actor and friend, Will Mueller! Will talks about his famous LSD (Not Mushroom) trip story that has been mentioned in previous episodes! He discusses how that trip threw out years of atheism right out the door and introduced the idea of a universal consciousness. He discusses how he wants to absorb all that the human experience can offer and how acting is a way to access that on a higher level! 

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FOR THE LOVE OF IT

beautiful music by: Doug Harvey 

Transcript

0:12

Hello? Hello, SPIE Spooning. How are you doing? Did you miss us? Hello. Hi. Hello, and welcome to SPO Oda, spiritual Practices of the Disgruntled Artist. We are your host. Olivia Spurs an air hater. And, uh, every week we bring on an artist and ask them what spiritual practices they are practicing to help them get through life, the industry, all of that. All that. Yeah. And then we take one of their practices, we steal it. Mm-hmm. We steal one and we do it ourselves for two weeks. And then we come back here and we talk about how that went. Yeah. How it was, what we learned, what we liked. What we didn't like sometimes. Sometimes we're honest. We're honest. We are for real. We're for real. We're for real. So last time, this is season two, so this has been months since we had our welcome, final welcome back, season two. Woo. Um, we had on Sarah Linley and their practice was write like, if you feel really upset mm-hmm. Kind of making it into an art piece. Mm-hmm. And like writing it in, in a notebook over and over and over, and sort of making it curvy and just, just kind of going with the flow with it and kind of getting it out via. Art in that way. Yeah. Yeah. And they said that they listened to a playlist that's like liminal spaces is how they described. Is that the same as like, um, what is it? Those things called like subliminal messaging videos because I really like those. I don't know. Okay. If I know what maybe, uh, Cynthia. Cynthia, yeah. Almost sound tracky. Okay. Is. At least how they described it, I found a different playlist. Okay. Yeah. I didn't do any of the stuff with the music, but I did do the writing and the thing and the art and the, and they did it. Yes. Same. Same. Okay. Okay. So, okay. Yeah. How did, how'd it go for you? Um, I liked it. Like I enjoyed it. Mm-hmm. I, I don't know. I mean, I think it's also just like a matter of. Like time, I think. Yeah. That I don't know that I have the ti. I mean, I don't know, like, think it was useful and I enjoyed it. Yeah. I don't know that I am going to incorporate it in your, in my like practices. Yeah. Yeah. But I think it was, and it, it was kind of nice to be like, oh, this thing that was making me upset is now sort of this beautiful art piece. Oh yeah. But I think also after I saw it, I was like, yeah, but I don't wanna do anything with that. Like, I was like, but that was because I was feeling a certain way and like, I don't wanna, I think this was more about the process Yes. Than the actual. Piece of art, but I know what you mean. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe I need to add like burning it. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Tear it up or whatever. Tear it up. Yeah. I think would it be actually especially helpful? It was like an audition that I didn't get that I really wanted to get. Mm-hmm. And just like kind of, instead of just writing a phrase like what Sarah was saying to do, write all my thoughts and feelings kind of in this swirly artist beautiful way. Yeah. Yeah. I was just like, why? I thought I was gonna get it, why I wanted to get it, why I'm disappointed, and then burn that. I think maybe that you should try that, you should try that. And I think it's like basically the same thing. Yes. That, yeah, that Sarah did. Um, how about for you? I liked it. I think, yeah, I think it's one of those, um, I, I, I feel like that's one I would pull if I'm really upset kind of a thing. Yes. It can't be like a neutral just Oh, you figuring it, you know? Yeah. I think when I was doing it, it was more, it wasn't like angry or extremely upset. I was, it was more of like, let's think about this kind of a thing. Mm sure. So, um, but it was really nice and I, and I, I found myself kind of, not just like using the letters and the sentences as like art is as in the picture, but also like separating the phrase and almost dissecting that too. What was your phrase? Do you remember your phrase? Yeah. Um, I hope I don't let myself down. Oh, oh. Oh, that's deep one. And so I just like kept on saying that Deep one. Yeah. So then you would separate it into, I hope, but then I would separate, I hope. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Wait, I love that. Yeah, so, so that was nice. I really, I really did enjoy it and I did listen to the music and I think that helped. Yes. Kind of get me in that, uh, meditative state, I would say. That's what it felt like to me, so, but I liked it. Yeah. It was nice. Again, like sitting down a journal isn't my first instinct. Right. Right, right, right. So that's why I say I feel like I would have to like really need to like, yes, mine was need it. Mine was like, I don't feel seen. I think that's what it was. We were like in a fight. Oh, okay. Yeah. But yeah. Interesting. Yeah. I had a question come up this week. I thought I would discuss it with you. Ooh, okay. Okay. The impulse for becoming an artist does it eventually not matter. Like, this is why I'm asking this. I've been doing a lot of inner work. Mm-hmm. It's TBM. Listen, it must be listen, is, it's doing a lot of great things. Yes. It really, yeah. Yeah. It really is. But, um, one of the things that came up, because I've been kind of analyzing my, like, work attitude. Okay. Like, why I have felt like. I mean, it plays into a lot of stuff of just like the unfair, I have this thing about it being unfair. And that relates back to the work attitude. Like, if I work hard, then I should get something for it. And if not, it's unfair. Yes. Yeah. Um, but also I think it was because like a childhood stuff, like being praised for like accomplishments. Mm-hmm. Instead of like, just who I was, you know? And to also like you were a gymnast. Yes. Like you had, you had discipline. Right. And I think that's part of it too, is like you work hard, you stay. You know? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but I, something that came up for me was, did I choose acting just because it was the hardest option to me because of this work attitude thing. Like, I was like, I was really good at chemistry, I was good at gymnastics enough to get like a scholarship to a college. And I, but I loved acting. But also part of me is like, was there a part of me that was like, the hardest option here is actually the acting part, and I'm gonna do that. I mean. I think there could be something where you, you, you just genuinely like to be challenged. Hmm. Would you say that's a yes or no? Hmm. I guess that's a yes, but I'm like, is that a yes because of the, because of all that, is that like a nature or nurture thing? Oh, that, I mean, that I have no idea. Yeah. You know? Right. Do you, would you, would you say you've always been this way as a kid? Yeah, but I started gymnastics when I was like three. Right. And I think because of the parental stuff, like I got attention for succeeding. For succeeding, you know? But I also, I'm, but I can't, I think the, the more interesting part of the question is, does it matter? Right. Right. Because now I know I love the thing. Right? And I went, we talked about last time. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. The whole circle of area. Like I think it only matters. I think it's a nice thing to acknowledge. Mm-hmm. Right. I think it's always interesting to kind of see the journey as a big picture and be like, oh, you know, like that's kind of what started it. But look at where I am now. So in a way, yeah, I don't think it matters right anymore, but I think it's. I don't know. I, I'm still chewing on it. Are you chewing on it?'cause would that make you are, do you want it to be true or do, do you have any feelings about that being true or not? Because I feel like that's a hard question to answer. Only you can answer that right. Only me, sorry. No, I, yeah, I think Okay. Like my, my most honest and um, like, I guess darkest self in this, right. Okay. Okay. Is like. I want the answer to be that I began and now am coming back around to doing this just for the love of a thing and it's a pure love of the thing. Okay? And that there's no element of me that is doing this in some way to like prove to my younger self, my parents, my history that I can do the impossible. Okay. But I guess there's a, and then there's a, this is where it becomes like the darker self is like, because if the answer is I got into this because it was the hardest option and I'm now seeing. I that I did get into this because it's the hardest option. Like I don't, I don't feel like I'm in a place of like, wanting to quit, but I, you know what I'm saying, like that's keeps popping up of like, right. I don't wanna just be doing this because it's the hardest thing to do. Like, I don't want, right. Like, I think part of my transformation has been like, I don't want my life to be hard. I want there to be ease and flow. And like right now in my acting stuff, there is ease and flow, but you know what I'm saying. But like, I, I feel like I'm still hanging on to something of wanting there to be like this success factor. Yeah. You know? Yeah. But I mean it's hard'cause I'm just like trying to think, compare it to another industry that's also like equally as hard and like once in a million lifetime, you know, that's not in the arts, you know? I feel like, I'm sure there is, but the arts feel very specifically this kind of like impossible. Not, you know. Yes. Um, you know, the honor to get, I guess no, I, it's interesting because you, the first thing you said was, what I'm discovering now is how it felt in the beginning is for the love of it. Mm-hmm. So I feel like that is, that's your answer. Yeah. Like, you know, and it's not black and white. Like Sure. I'm sure there was this element of like, oh, well, is, it is a challenge and it is like. Like nearly impossible. Nearly impossible. But I don't know. I think I wish it's, I almost kind of like envying kind of wish I had that, you know, like I think in a, well, maybe we do, because I feel like in order to stay in this is you have to like kind of like enjoy the fact that this is. Gonna be difficult, like, you know what I mean? Does that make sense? Yes. That like, yes. Right, right. Yeah. It, it's almost like two hands holding each other. Yeah. I guess like for the love of it, and also I think you're right, you have to have some sort of genuine, or even like, I don't know, is it masochistic, like love of something that keeps hurting you or despite of it, like, you know, despite how hard it's gonna do, I'm, how hard it's gonna be, I'm gonna do it, you know? Yeah. I don't know. Interesting. It does feel like it's a childhood thing. Yeah, I mean, so much like, and it's interesting'cause the, the part, the part of TBM that I did was this inner child work, which I avoided for so long. Like my sisters, a therapist would bring up like inner child stuff and immediately those words like used to make me so cringe. And now I know why, because, but it actually like wasn't as scary as what I thought it was gonna be. Like, there wasn't any deep dark thing that I haven't. Thought about. Right. Like, and it really helped a lot of stuff. Just stuff that like, you know, was put on me that I wasn't responsible for and like, shouldn't have been responsible for. And it's helped me a lot, I think. Kind of unblock some of that stuff. Yeah. How's that? Have you done the book? So I'm still, I'm still in it. Okay. Um, still in the beginning she's, I'm still writing out my manifestations. Yep. Which it is interesting. So, um, I, I think it's fine to say this. Yeah. But, um. By the end of June. Mm-hmm. I'm no longer gonna have the job I have. Yes. So this is a whole new, and you've been there for like how many years? 10 years. I've been there for a decade. Wow. Been there for 10 years. Yeah. Yeah. That's big. It's time. Yes, it is time. This is a good thing overall. Yep. But just, you know. Big transition. Big transition. Yeah. And so it is interesting to now I'm in the part of the manifestation. I was like, oh, but before, I mean I was also thinking of career wise. Mm-hmm. Definitely as far as acting wise. But now I almost wanna add this. Okay. What is this other, you know, obviously acting still the number one, aspiration number one goal. Mm-hmm. But I will probably need another job. Yes. And what does that look like? And. Which I don't think is bad. Like I think we, something that's been ingrained in us, or maybe, I don't know if you had this experience, but it, I feel like when I was in NYU, it was like, you can't have a plan B. If you have a plan B, you've already failed. Yeah, yeah. Like that is so not realistic, realistic, or like even necessary now. Yeah. Like with the self tape world, like it is so unnecessary to have it be like it's acting or bust, and I think it, it creates so much like financial freedom mm-hmm. To have something else and it releases the pressure. Like, I can't imagine, I mean. Me and Phil talk about this all the time. Like if Grey's Anatomy had made me take off and we bought a house and then COVID hit like we would be financially in a tough time, then Yeah. If it was like, okay, it's working. Like we buy a house, we have a mortgage because of act, and then suddenly there's no acting work. Like Yeah. That is terrifying. Yeah. And not good for the soul. Right. So, yeah. So I'm, I'm really thinking about what this next phase is gonna be. Yeah. Have there been any like pings that have come to you of like, oh yeah, maybe this. Um, yeah, there's been a couple of things. I think in a weird way, I know a lot of things I don't want. Mm, that's good. Um, and I'm going to try to avoid any caregiving positions, while that is my resume, yeah. Weirdly, I, I wanna take a class on video editing. Okay, great. I do wanna do something creative. I thought about casting. Yeah. I mean, be, think about it, you would be such a great casting actor, but, and I, you know, it, it would be interesting. Um, I work out a theater. Mm-hmm. 100%. You know, so I think there's part of me that's like, okay, no, I think I wanna be connected to the world some way. Or I am also down to do a job that has nothing to do with it, but it's gotta be remote and it's gotta be flexible. I don't know what that is. Yes, but that's what it must be. Totally. So, yeah. I feel like the universe has put this big test in front of you. Yeah. But I, I feel like you're passing it. I feel like, you know, like, just brag to say brag because like, you're not, you like have your composure. You're not for young. You're like looking at this as an I had my moment. Of course, you know, there's, there's, there's, I'm not, I'm not, I'm am scared a little. Yeah. You know, but I, I feel lucky to be in a position, that. We're not gonna struggle. Mm-hmm. You know, and we're gonna be okay. And I feel that. Yeah. And so, and in a weird way, it's, it's going to make me be like. Confident again. Yeah. Not that it's not that I am not, but like bring some extra confidence back in because you, I think you just gotta, I just gotta know that I am a capable, smart hundred percent creative person. Yes. Like I can do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. I think it's gonna be great for you. I'm excited. It's gonna be a lot of changes, but a lot of good stuff, I think. Yeah, a lot of magic. LA Magic. LA Magic. We got a great interview for today. I'm so excited. And Will is the person, the story if you're a long time listener. Yes. I'm mentioning the story of the person who took shrooms Yep. And realized that we're all actually connected and like it's all, it's just we're all one. And then his friend was like, uh, taught him this and was like, I'll never see you again. And then the actual friend who he took mushrooms with left and he never saw me again. This whole thing that is Will, yeah, I have, I have not said his name this whole time because I didn't wanna out him, but. Anyway, we have been out a podcast. He's been out. Sorry. Alright. Um, yeah, it's gonna be great. Yay. Thanks for joining us back. Thank you. Spo to season two. Spo to season two baby. Here we go. Hello. Hello. Okay, guys. Boies. Boies. We have Will Mueller here with you today. He's an actor. He's six two. Yes. It's an important one. He's got some vertical aspirations. Yes. He does a lot of Shakespeare and theater, and actually both Olivia and Will and myself and Sam friend of Pod are gonna be working on this devised theater piece together and, me and Will trauma bonded via a play moons ago. Yeah. And I saw the play and you saw the play and you saw the traumatic portion, as did everyone else. Yeah. That this is what people say when it's, you know what, traumatic I saw it. Yeah, I saw it. Oh, I, yeah, I saw that one. I witnessed it. Yeah. I was there and I watched it with my eyes. Anyway, welcome. Yes, thank you you guys so much for having me. Oh my goodness. Thanks. Being here, I'm gonna stop slapping my knee right next to the mic there. No, no, keep doing it again. Oh, good. Okay. So historically, oh, you are our first interview of season two should be mentioned. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, thank you. A historical moment. Wow. Yeah. For all of our 12,000 listeners. Absolutely. Absolutely. 12,001 now. Ooh. Who's the one? Just somebody new. They know who they are. Just watch your back, your back. Um, okay. Historically we have started this with either pulling a card or taking three deep breaths, or both. Let's pull a card. Yes. Let, let's do it. Alright. So for these cards, yes. If you would like to go in with a question, you can. You don't have to. Sometimes I'm just like, what do I need to hear? Um, okay. Yeah, And you speaking One card. Oh, just one card? Yeah, just one. Okay. Here it is. All right. What do we got? Eternal love, happiness, harmony, and fulfillment. Wow. Can I see the number? The number or turn it? What's the number on the oh, 24. 24. Okay. Is my lucky number. Is it really? Yes. Whoa. Okay. You ready? It's a short one. Okay. Real quick. Happiness, harmony, fulfillment. Something is resolved soon. A new page is turned as a concern. You have dissolves and gives way to a period of sunshine. A time to relax. Enjoy life free of the worry and doubt that have cast a great shadow over your life. For the past few weeks during the coming month or so, try to spend time in nature. Allow yourself to reconnect to gaia's nurturing and healing power. Immerse your immerse and surround your yourself in her natural beauty. For she will help you restore your balance, harmonize your energy centers, and replenish your body, mind, and spirit. It may be difficult for you to switch off at first, but after a few days as your thoughts slow down, you will settle into a new and more relaxed rhythm. Make the most of this opportunity while you can. Whoa. Does that mean anything to you? Uh, it definitely, I, I need to think about what exactly it means. Mm-hmm. I've been, I, I have a job promotion I've been debating. Mm. Right. Part of which is because it has the potential to interfere with my general flexibility for things like my artistic endeavors and all the stuff I want to do there. But it's a good opportunity, but I don't know that it's the right fit for me. Mm-hmm. So, I don't know how to interpret this yet, but I, it does feel, feel good. It does feel, yeah. I mean, that's, that, that sounds great. I mean, what were the words I have here? Happiness, harmony, and fulfillment. Who doesn't want that? Yeah. He doesn't want a little bit of that. Yeah. So maybe you need to go ask a tree. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So that's what I do actually, generally, I went just last week. Or, yeah. This past week when I have like a big decision, I'm a member at the, a member at the Huntington Botanical Garden. Insane. It's one of the biest things about me, and I absolutely love it. And I like to just go and I like going through something. I go, I just walk around up there. Great. It's amazing. Have you ever been? I don't think I've been. Oh, you have to go. You have the taker. Oh my goodness. Yeah, a hundred percent. It's amazing. That sounds great. And they have this high tea that you can do in the Rose Garden. Credible. It's unbelievable. It's really unbelievable. That sounds So, it's like four museums. It's crazy. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. You need to go and you need to ask the flowers. Yeah. So I, yeah, I did. I went and I was sort of walking around and, you know. Yeah. Um, it was, it was, I mean, I think it's super helpful. Mm-hmm. It was just a place to go, like, clear my head. Mm-hmm. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. When my children are cranky, I tell'em to go tell a tree because yeah. You know, you can give things to a tree and now IOR will go up to a tree and say, tree, I'm cranky. That's great. Wow. That, that's great. Tree. I'm cranky. Um, okay. So Will Yes, let's dive in. Dive in. Let's do it. Your spiritual history, like upbringing parents? Yeah. What's that about? What's about that? So, yeah, I was born and raised Catholic. Okay. Um, just for a short period of time, my family did not like the politics of our church, which was very conservative. Mm-hmm. And we were just, not that we were in Denver, we were liberals. We were not a fan of, you know, the way that the pastor spoke about elections and stuff. So we stopped going. I wasn't aware of all this'cause I was so young. Okay. But I remember being very young and I was very religious. We're not religious, I guess,'cause I didn't understand religion, but I believed very strongly in a God, you know? And then. I turned into like a middle schooler. Mm-hmm. At which point I one aided and became an ad, like a strong and outspoken atheist. Okay. Wow. And when I say a strong, I, I mean I was in atheist clubs. What? Yes, yes. Okay. So like in high school I was like in the like atheist, like the secular club. And then I went to college. Mm-hmm. For my first year, for like the first half of my time at college. I was also in like the secular student alliance there. Like very Whoa. Okay. Wrong atheistic. Okay. I didn't even know this. Yeah. Can I ask please? How did your family react to this? Yes. Uh, which part of it? The atheism. Your switch. Your switch to the, so my, yeah. I mean my family was never, you know, my grandmother was very religious. Okay. But it wasn't like a big uprising at all. It was just not at all. Okay. Exactly. It was no one cared. No one, no one even objected. I don't know that anyone feels differently than that. I mean, there's, you know, I mean, my family in large part. Sort of, I think, feel similarly as I do about a lot of things. Mm-hmm. But yeah, I mean, they were, they're not, they're not Catholics. So there was no got it issue with me not believing in that. Okay. Right. Mm-hmm. Um, not at all. So after the atheism, um, years, yeah. Did, did they continue on? Do you feel like you're still an atheist now? No. And this goes into a story that you've told a few times. Here's the mushroom story, ladies and gentlemen. Here's, here's an important caveat. I've never corrected you on this. Oh. Oh God. Oh God. Okay. It was LSD, not mushroom. Oh. Now to, what is that? Doesn't mean any difference. I don't see a difference. I, I haven't, I don't do, I don't do drugs really at all anymore. I swear. I swear. I used to do, have you done all of the drugs? But I've never done mushrooms, but from what I've been told, okay. Age, the psychedelic experience. Mm-hmm. Can be similar between the two. Okay. Um, so I, it wasn't mushrooms, it was LSD. Thank you for correcting me. Right. Correct. All correction number one. There. Will, I assume there will be a great deal more. Uh, I'm gonna start a season two. I'm putting you both in check. Okay. You're not getting away with any of this season one stuff any longer Enough is enough. We need, okay, so I, so I did, yes. My freshman year of college, I, where'd you go? I went to Illinois Wesleyan University. Okay. Yep. Exactly. So I, I, yeah, I just, I, it's not that Wesleyan, there's a bunch of Wesleyans. I just followed the money. I was getting a b, FA in acting. Yeah. Great. It was basically a free walk there. Okay. I was like, I'm just, I'm gonna take the money and run. Right. Um, so I pretty much immediately started having as much fun as I possibly could at college. Mm-hmm. Very re I was a hooligan. I was, you know, drinking and doing all types of drugs and experimenting and not all types of drugs., I smoked a lot of marijuana. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I've used its full name. Yeah. So, you know, it's in trouble with me. I used a full legal name. Right. Um, and I, I, like, I would like did cocaine and I was, you know, just doing whatever I could to party and all that sort of stuff. At some point I got my hands on LSD and I knew nothing about it. Okay. I didn't research it. I didn't think twice about it. I knew some friends who had done it and they said, oh man, it's so wild. And I was like, sign me up. And so I went about it as wildly irresponsibly as I think you possibly can. Mm-hmm. I took two of these tabs. Okay. Mm-hmm. Uh, I didn't realize they were something called double dipped, which meant each one was twice as strong as a typical one. Oh boy. This is your first time. My first time, right. And then I proceeded to start drinking. Oh no. And smoked some marijuana. Marijuana who is still in trouble with me. And, um, and then I waited a little bit and I didn't feel anything. Now this is because it takes a while. For the effects to hit. Mm-hmm. But I said, enough is enough. I'll take two more. No. Oh my God. So I took two more double dip tabs of acid. It's so terrifying. But at this point it's about eight tabs of acid, which anyone who knows much about acid would know that you shouldn't start by doing eight double dip tabs of acid no matter how tall you are. Well, drinking and smoking and having done zero research. Yes. No matter how tall you are, no matter how much you've achieved vertically. Yeah. But I just said, you know what, I, uh, and so then, and then I had this, all this other weird stuff happened that it was this girl in the basement and of the, wait, what of the, of my dormitory? There was like a little lounge in the ground floor, and someone came to me and they're like, so-and-so's down in the, in the, in the lounge, and they're not well and you should go talk to them. And I was like, oh, okay. Well of course I will. No, I shouldn't have done this. And I went down and she had, we, it was an art school. So she's building a puppet and walking around and there's, there's musical theater songs playing and she's singing and crying and it was like, so strange. And is this real? This is all real. This is not actually happened. Yeah. This all like leads into it. Okay. So it was like this very bizarre experience. What? But so they thought she was unwell because she was in Puppet? Well, she was crying and they were like, and I was, and I was like, should we go talk? And he was like, yeah, someone should. So I, I was just like, I'll do it. I shouldn't have done it. I, you know, it, it just, it set me up on a weird foot for what was all then to come. Yeah. Then we like go over to Little Park that we usually would hang out at. And there was one other person who had taken a small amount of, not nearly as much taken, but a very small amount of LSD as well. And we go to this park and we were sort of hanging out and then it started to sort of trigger the, you know, the hallucination element of it started for me with like some trees. Mm-hmm. Started sort of moving, going back to the trees. Right. And for me, that moment was. Very quickly snapped a realization for me that the, my mind was affecting the environment around me. Mm-hmm. It was because I'd taken a hallucinogenic jug, but I had never hallucinated before. And so there was this thing where I realized, okay, what, what is happening inside of me is affecting what is happening in the outside world, very viscerally. Like I see this tree misbehaving. Right? And it doesn't seem to be doing so in a way that like interferes with the rest. Like, but it seemed very real. It seemed very much like that was happening. And what that very suddenly flipped a switch in me, which is okay, and I guess I knew this all along, you know, you're, you're getting all these, this input to your brain. Mm-hmm. Synapses are firing, light is entering the eye. Triggering a synapse, and then the mind is creating the image that you are seeing based on the data that is coming into it, right? Mm-hmm. And when you hallucinate, the brain just sort of starts creating, you know, makes things happen without that input, or it over imposes itself on that, right? Yes, exactly. And so once I realized, okay, wait a minute, that is happening, irrespective of what hypothetically is happening around me, but I can't tell the difference. Mm-hmm. I realized, okay, there's actually, like something's happening here at Tandem where what I think is me and what I think is the experience of the world outside of me mm-hmm. Is really sort of one thing. Mm-hmm. And right now, because it's misbehaving mm-hmm. It's very obvious to me, if that makes sense. Makes Right. Yeah. And so I felt like, okay, there's another side to this coin, I'm, I'm seeing that the world isn't just some outside thing and then there's me. There's, there's something. And it felt immediately I thought, oh my gosh, this has to be something spiritual then. Mm-hmm. Because the two are working together. Mm. And it's not just me in the world, it's the world in me. And I thought, well, maybe that means there's a God or something. Mm-hmm. And I'm five minutes into this trip and, and I'm already, years of atheism have gone out the window. Right. I'm like, wait a minute, there must be a God. So just to, to, because I wanna make sure I get this. Yes. Because the idea of there must be a God, or this must be spiritual, was because your perception changed. So it made you realize that forever your, like perception of the tree was not your own, like you were not an individual having that experience. It was informed by something different. So Yes. Well, as an atheist, I had a very mechanical view of the world. Yeah. Right. I thought of it as, you know, we are just a chemical reaction in our experience of being alive as a chemical reaction. In a chemical world and everything is just physics and basic chemistry, and we are just a facet of that, that we don't fully understand. Mm-hmm. But I'm sure, you know, science could explain it at some point, this sort of got rid of the idea that it was just some sort of a, a mechanical, um, circumstance, and that our awareness was something deeper and that our, our sense of awareness and our sense of self was tethered to this apparently physical world around us. Mm-hmm. And when the two interacted, it became non-physical. And to me it just felt like it. Therefore, this is all very, it was not physical. Mm. So let me, let me, let me step back a little bit.'cause I'm, I'm saying a lot. No, I think I know you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I think, I believe personally mm-hmm. That there are, you know, there are two likely possibilities of the world. One that is just a physical thing, or one that is just a, a non-physical, something that is consciousness. I think the universe is either physical or consciousness based. Okay. And if it is a physical universe, then our experience of consciousness is a result of physical properties interacting and creating the illusion of a consciousness, right? Mm-hmm. If it is consciousness, then the physical world is essentially like a dream. Okay. Okay. I see what you, if that makes sense, then Yes. So, you know, the, when we go to sleep at night, we close our eyes and we dream and we are creating the rooms that we're in, we're creating the people that come up to us. All of that is happening within our minds. And our minds are creating that, that movie that we're watching at night when we sleep. Mm-hmm. And. A, a, a, a strictly conscious universe could hypothetically mm-hmm. Create an environment like the ones that we're in right now. Mm-hmm. That, does that make sense? Yeah, I think so. Okay. Yeah. Sort of like the matrix. Yes. Right. I mean, this sort of like a matrix and mm-hmm. View of things. Mm-hmm. Okay. So anyway, I, I did the acid. I have this experience where I'm like, wait a minute. I think that consciousness is something other than just this dumb physical reaction that I thought it was.'cause I'm mm-hmm. Experiencing it, interact with the world. It's greater than you. It's greater than I thought. Okay. Okay. Um, and then the kid who sat next to me mm-hmm. Who is also on LSD, said something to me. Mm-hmm. But he didn't move his mouth when he said it. And I just heard his voice in my head. Mm. And I looked at him and I was like, did you say that? And he said it again, but he still didn't move his mouth right. And it felt like we were communicating. Just with our minds. Again, this is all the experience I'm having while I'm on drugs. I preface everything I say with, I don't know that I, I'm saying this is exactly what I'm, this is what the experience was. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Can I just real quick, I don't want to interrupt your, well no, please. What was your, what, how did you feel about this? Would you feel, did you feel uncomfortable? No, I did. Was it kind of like a relief? Was there anything? Yeah. Yes. I, well, I felt terrified. Okay. Okay. And you're saying The word I would use is terrified. Okay.'cause I felt like, oh my God, there's more to this world than I was giving it credit for. Okay. I dunno what's going on. I, I'm in a new realm and my basic, you know, what I've built the house of my belief system on has just crumbled beneath me. Yeah. I, I think there's more going on in this world than I, I gave it credit for. Okay. Okay, great. Um, and I'm terrified'cause I don't know what it is., So then we, you know, he and I are sort of talking. In this nonverbal way, but it sounds like I can hear his voice and you know, he's telling me it's okay, this happens when you do LSD, sometimes you can experience something like this. You're gonna be okay, everything's gonna be okay. Mm-hmm. But after this, you're not gonna see me again. And you're not going to have an experience like this again for a very, very long time. Mm. Right now he was like, you're gonna get a peek behind the curtain, but then you're gonna come back and it's gonna be okay. Mm-hmm. And I was all wake out. I was like, what are you talking about? I don't understand. So we go back to my dorm room and at this point it really starts to kick in. Oh, okay. And sort of all of the walls fall away. Oh boy. And there's just this bright, brilliant light. And I get sucked up outta my body and I'm in this brilliant light, and it's just love and happiness and joy, and it's the most beautiful thing in the world. And I was like, oh my God. This is who I really am. This is who we all really are. And there's no people there. It's just white light. Everybody is there. Everybody is there. Okay. And it's just the one thing, right? Mm-hmm. We're all, it's just this brilliant, all encompassing light. And I was like, this is what it is. Mm-hmm. Oh my gosh. I can't believe I forgot myself. This is what's going on. Mm-hmm. And it was amazing. And then I had to come back into my body.'cause you know, my time in this brilliant space was over, and I did not want to go back into my body. Mm. But I had to go and I knew I had to, so I sort of dropped back into my body again. This is what I'm, you know, experiencing, uh, on drugs. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Um, then things got really hellish because I was like, oh no, I'm back in this world, this physical world, and it's scary. And oh my gosh. And the walls of my dorm sort of looked like, you know, there were flames on them and people sort of looked ghoulish and like demons. And it felt like my apart, my, my dorm room turned into an elevator and like dropped down into hell. And then in real time, in the real world. The A apart or the dorm room next to mine, they burned a bunch of toast. Oh. And the hallways filled with smoke. Oh no. And the fire alarms went off. Oh my God. Nightmare for you. Super cool. Yeah. At which point, at which point I was like, oh my God, I'm in Hell yeah. I was also at this point, just in my boxers. Yeah. And it's in Illinois. Yeah. And it's the middle of winter. Oh. And I ran outside in my boxers in the middle of winter, and I was running around and I was like, oh my God. Oh my God. Freezing outside. It was like zero degrees. It was crazy. Oh God. And, and that was my asset experience and, and, um, yeah, it was the best and the worst all in one. And it fundamentally changed how I viewed things. Mm-hmm. Um, and I, I stopped doing drugs. I do not smoke weed. I don't do anything like that anymore about marijuana. I don't smoke marijuana either. I don't, no. But I do. I do. I, I, I do drink, I do take, you know, I drink a lot of coffee too. I drink alcohol, but I don't do, like, I don't do any sort of psychoactive drugs. Right. Um, in, in the sense of like marijuana or LSD or cocaine or any of that. Yeah. And I'm glad I don't. Yeah. Um, but yes. But also the guy who you were with, you never did see him again. And that's, that's true. And so then weirdly, he sort of just dropped out of school and was never seen again. Um, after saying that to you in your Yeah, and he had, and he had sort of been like my guide through it. I sort of truncated it, uhhuh there, that whole What was your, was he a friend before? Like, did you know? Yeah, he was, yeah, I knew him for like the whole year. I mean, we, we'd been good friends. Okay. Um. And no one knew what happened to him. Mm. Everyone was like, where did that, like all of our friends, they were like, I don't know, like Ryan's just gone. Have you ever looked him up? He's not on social media. Wow. Yeah. He never was. Was I, in fairness, I'm not on social media, but Yeah. I mean, you know, it, it's strange. Um, Ryan, if you're out there. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. Wow. Yeah. So what an amazing story. Okay. That's why that story stuck with me so hard. Yeah. Well, there you have it. But, um, yeah, so from there I just sort of, my whole belief system changed. Mm-hmm. And I very much am a believer in sort of, you know, eastern philosophy, views of God as, as the universe and as us. And as this sort of connected subconsciousness being, the spiritual force in this universe. Hmm. So you believe that that white light thing mm-hmm. With all the love and the people Yeah. That's the reality. But we're in these sort of like meat sacks in our, because we've chosen to Yeah. So I wouldn't, yes. Because we've chosen to, I think that, I, I ultimately, I believe that, you know,, if God is just consciousness then it has this ability to create anything for itself and experience things. And, and, and the same way that if we could control our dreams, we would be able to dream any magnitude of fantastic things. Mm-hmm. And experience so many things and. This is the practice of that God or that consciousness, doing something with itself and enjoying itself and exploring itself and creating and Oh, and so like we each are, it's a dream of the consciousness. Correct. Correct. Whoa, I like that. My mind is gone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so that, that's, that's my essential belief, right? That this experience is a, a, a universe,, putting itself into our position to experience itself. Mm-hmm. Through us. Okay. Wow. So then, do you believe that your life in this dream world that is being created by the consciousness is planned out for you? I believe it's planned out in the sense that, something that exists in an infinite space mm-hmm. Will eventually circle around to all possibilities. Hmm. So if you have an infinity amount, you know, an infinite amount of time to, you know, dream or create, and you have an infinite power to dream and create mm-hmm. You will eventually, it's the monkeys with a typewriter. Right, right. A thousand monkeys with a thousand. Yeah. They'll eventually write the complete works of Shakespeare. Eventually everything will happen.. But there could be as, and you know, this is what sort of multiverse theory says, you know, there could be infinite versions of us that all take different paths. You know, there could be a, a, a, you know, infinite number of universes wherein every possibility is fully explored. Mm-hmm. And this is one of those, but they're all happening sort of in unison. Does it make you feel at all like sort of a pawn in the game of the universe? It, it would, if I didn't feel that I had an innate connection to the, the board and the game itself. Mm-hmm. You know, the pawn is the king. Yeah. And the king is the pawn. And it, you're not getting pushed around by it, uh, because you are it. Yeah. So you are both the thing that is being pushed and the thing doing the pushing. And so you can't be taken advantage of in a circumstance in which it is all you are doing. Right. If that makes sense on a more cosmic level. Mm-hmm. Does that make sense? It does make sense, but it's, it's reminding me of, first of all, it reminds me of Sam's thing, which Sam's friend remember, was like, we choose the experience. The Earth package. The Earth package. Where like, as a soul, you have chosen the earth package because you wanna experience like. The horrible things and the great things, the way you're explaining it, ITMI, it just brought this idea into my head of like, so is the con, does the consciousness at some point decide, you know, what I would like to explore in a dream? Like being an actor who never makes it or something like, let's put that, you know what I'm saying? Like, is that the path of some people in this way? I think that yes, that is the path in some way. Mm-hmm. But I also think that, you know, that, that it'd be like saying you, you, you are your body. We all feel very in tune with our body. Mm-hmm. Um, but you wouldn't slag off your pinky just for being a pinky. Right. You wouldn't say, oh, you know, I'm me. I would hate to be my pinky.'cause you kind, you are your pinky. Right? And your pinky has its unique experience. You can pinch or you can stub it, you can do anything to it. Right. Your other hands don't feel it. And yet on a greater sense, you as an organism feel everything that's happening to every part of you at once. Interesting. And it doesn't, you don't. You don't, you don't look down on it for being, you know, a smaller part of you.'cause it's a part of the bigger hole, if that makes sense. So you don't wanna torture the pinky or this case. Why would Well, yeah. Why would you wanna torture it? And also, you know, I do think there's, if, if we're getting into the subject of, you know, good and evil and, you know, suffering and all of that. Yeah. I think that we as artists and storytellers understand innately the importance of, um, obstacle mm-hmm. And, and, and difficulties and struggling. Um, it's what makes stories good. Mm-hmm. It's what makes things, you know, worthy of our attention in some way. It, it doesn't mean that we should seek it out or impose it on people or anything like that. Mm-hmm. But there's obviously. No story without a difficulty. We would never wanna do a play about people who are perfectly content in a room. Right. It would be nothing would happen. That's so weird.'cause we just, our intro was talking about this Really? Yeah. About work attitude.'cause that's what I, I felt like I've been doing a lot of inner work, inner child work and I realized that like this core principle I have of like, you work hard and you get the thing is like ingrained with some parental stuff, like working hard to get, but then I had the thought, did I choose acting? Because it is the hardest path. Like I, I had that thought of like, is that, and then we were talking about, well, like in a certain way, if you're an artist of any kind, there has to be a part of you that appreciates and loves the work attitude. Yeah. And like the, the failing and trying again and failing and trying again. But you're right. Yeah. That this is something we didn't talk about is that like. All art, is that like all plays are that all films are that? Yeah. Well, you, yeah. I mean, I feel like it's important in our lives to pick a mountain that's worth dying on. Yeah. Right. Uh, you know, and, and I also will say to this end, when it comes to our ambition and like what we want out of life mm-hmm. I think as artists, that's something that it, it, you know, we often don't have a solid answer for, or we don't know what we're looking for. And so we view things on this pendulum of success or failure, but we don't even really know what our success would look like. That's a very, very good point. Yeah. Like even if you had, you know, whatever it is, you know, oh, maybe you didn't get the award that you wanted at the end of it. Oh, I never got an Oscars. Like, you know, some, and, and I mention Oscars because it's award ceremony and I, I can't tell you how many actors I know who an Academy Award is their life's goal. Right. They want an Oscar. Yeah. But I bet they couldn't really articulate why except for that it symbolizes success. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, Right? So what is actually, what does success look like? Not just as artists, but as people. Yeah. Yeah. and for me, one of my, favorite quote that I have on my wall, I have like a little plaque I printed out. It's a Confucius quote and it says, at the end of my life, I will not be afflicted at men's not knowing me. I will be afflicted if I do not know man. Mm-hmm. And to me, that sort of symbolizes what I want out of this life. If I can leave the world with an understanding of what it is to be human, then I feel that I will have had some success in it. Mm-hmm. And not success maybe, but I will have gotten something out of it. Mm-hmm. Something real, because we have this insane possibility mm-hmm. Of living our lives. In this world, and it's so complicated to be a person. Yeah. And who are we and all of the nuance of our particularly, um, complicated, evolutionary life cycle. I mean, we're so aware of ourselves as, as humans in a way that seemingly most other life forms are not. Right. It gives us so much potential for love and beauty and, and, and stories and, and pain and suffering that I think are just worthy of exploring if we have this mm-hmm. Brilliant opportunity to have this experience. Mm-hmm. and so for me, that's what I want, you know, to, to understand what it means to be a human, understand what it means to be me. Mm-hmm. Um, and everything else. I, you know, I don't see any, any real. Value in. Mm-hmm. Is that what drew you to like being an actor? That's a hundred percent because I think that you can explore human life as an actor in the most visceral and fully encompassing way. You get to step into suffering in, um, in a context where the pain isn't something that necessarily follows you out of the, out of the room. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, you get to delve into these complicated situations that without having to take on the burden of living a very messy, complicated life, you know? Mm. And I think that's part of the thrill of acting Yeah. Is you get to explore circumstances and situations that you are not ever gonna have the ability to find yourself in. Mm. And you can do it from an authentic place and, and. Add that to your experience. Yeah. Almost like you are now the consciousness and like the dreams are the roles. Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Fun way, pinky the Polite. Yeah. Like you're like, it's like you're doing what it, you're choosing. Yeah. Right. And ex and essentially that's what I believe it is, right? Mm-hmm. That's sort of what the God structure would be. Mm-hmm. Something like an actor stepping into our lives to experience that. Mm. Yeah. Ooh, wow. Oh wow. I just had like, I got children from that. Didn't like that. Yeah. Why do you think you're an actor while we're here? Oh, you know what? I, I think, you know what? I, it's a funny'cause you were asking the earlier question of why you, we got into that. Yes. And for me, it was a mistake. Like I wasn't supposed to, it was a mistake. It wasn't, I wasn't supposed to, I was like super scared to do drama and then Miss Camp changed my life. Mm-hmm. And, and I just all of a sudden latched onto it. Hmm. Yeah. I, I think very similarly, like, I think there's something about. Living outside yourself and then also playing with others. I,, I think it's always been about connection for me. Hmm, hmm. Particularly interesting. Yeah. Connection with other people. And the audience. And the audience. I, because also I think theater is my number one. Yeah. Like mm-hmm. Form of acting. And there's like that energy that you are exchanging with, other actors and the people and yourself, and it's just so, and then I just, it feels so heightened to me. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. So outta curiosity. Well, and, um, when it comes to your beliefs mm-hmm. In a God, right? Yeah. Um, do you ever feel. Because the traditional view of God is almost one where he is in the audience at all times. Mm. Right. In our lives. Right. Like a lot of people view God as something outside of them. Yeah. That is looking down on them and watching them and is aware of everything and watching everyone. Mm-hmm. And it is sort of this, you know, before, uh, you know, before you're always, before the eyes of God. Um, does, does that at all translate into how you feel? You know, that's a good question. Not for me because I, I'm, I'm not in the believer of like an alle. Right. I, I'm more similar to this, uh, energy that connects us. Right. Just the conscience that, um, which is funny. I've never thought of it in that terms. I've always used the word energy. Mm-hmm. I think I always go back to that energy source that connects us all. yeah. Uh, as far as like seeing, I feel like. When we are acting and you're, and you're in it and you're, and do you feel like God is present when you're in it? Whatever God gives you energy. No, but, but I think that's, that's a good point is going back into like, if we're being looked at or I do feel like it's, it's like lit up. Yeah. If that makes sense. Like the energy is like sparking more. It's always there. The current's always there, but it's, yeah. There's a power there. And I think part of it is that because we, I think we naturally do this. I mean, this is what I think film and TV and all of that is, is not only is the actor, I think as the actor, it's the most visceral way to experience the art because you are the one in the moment. Yeah, yeah. But the audience is living through you. Yeah. Yeah. In the moments that you're on stage. Yeah. They are projecting themselves into you to try to understand the play and the reality that you've put forward in front of them. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So you are carrying all of those people with you in this story, in this moment when you're performing. Yeah. If that makes sense. Yeah. At least I believe that. Yeah. You know, we, we project ourselves onto our art, which is what I think art is so useful for. Yeah. In this circumstance, right? Yeah. When it, when if, if life is about. The exploration of our existence as people, then art is a way to further explore ourselves. Mm-hmm. And we do it by vicariously stepping into whatever work of art that we're looking at. You know, as actors, we take the audience with us through. You know, all types of turmoil or, or, you know, laughter or whatever. Um, but they're sort of riding on our wave. Mm-hmm. Um, do you feel like you're, when you play, let's say you were to play a role of like, I don't know, an astronaut, somebody who's an astronaut. Mm-hmm. Do you feel like you are channeling the experience of somebody else? Like, based on this collective consciousness idea, do you feel like you are inspired by the consciousness of somebody who's in that white light who had the experience of like, being terrified on a spaceship or something? Does that play in? I think it's possible for sure. Mm-hmm. Um, I mean, yeah, I think that we are all that white light. We're all of them at once. Yes. Okay. Yeah. I see. We are all of them at once. It's this fundamental thing, which is like. Why. So, you know, even someone whose, whose life and story is so dramatically different than ours. Mm-hmm. Uh, we can still relate to it. We can still understand their, their hurt and their sorrow and their, and their love and their joy because we experience all of those same things. And that ability, I guess to, to feel those things is what keeps us all together because we, we can connect through those things. Mm-hmm. And the things that we don't have in common are circumstances. Right. Are still built upon that same foundation. Mm-hmm. Which is why as an actor, I love experiencing circumstances beyond any character that you play. Perhaps you wouldn't make the same decisions. Right. You know, oftentimes, hopefully we wouldn't make the same decisions. But you're still the same kind of a thing. Yeah. At, at our core, we're all still that same thing. And so from that place, you know, it's then it's just, you know, when it comes to acting, it's that magic if Yeah. Right. You have the thing that is you. Mm-hmm. What if it was put into this situation that was very different than yours? Yeah. How would you react? And if you can stay truthful to that, it will be an authentic performance. Right. At least I believe that. I remember asking you this. When you told me this story during the fateful play years ago, but, um, I remember I asked you something like, so if you know that it's kind of one consciousness that you are it and it is you, like all the things that you know, do you not get upset when you, like, don't get apart that you really want? Or like, or like, why do you still feel the feelings about, uh, like the vicissitudes of life? Yeah. Uh, I think the answer is because that those vicissitudes, those, those, those feelings are the point. And it's the same way that when we go to a movie, you, you want to fall into the, the pain of the characters. Mm-hmm. You don't wanna watch a movie and just be completely blocked off. Right? Mm-hmm. Right. You want to believe in it. Yeah. But the point is to feel those things, even if they're uncomfortable. It is the point. It is the purpose. I believe that. Yeah. And, and yet it's important to have a pressure valve. You know, you don't wanna be like the people back in the thirties or whatever where they showed them a video of a train and they all ran out of the theater. Uhhuh, you don't want to, you don't want to buy in you, you want to have a way to check yourself and to sort of step out of yourself when you need to. Mm-hmm. So that you can bear the load of life. You don't want it to be something so serious mm-hmm. That you can't handle it. Is that kind of what kind of goes into your head when you do come across like, yeah, you didn't get a par or something disappointing. Do you think? Do you, do you think it takes your you time or is it pretty quick for you to be like, was it meant to be. Like, how does Yeah, I, I definitely can be quick to say, you know, it wasn't meant to be. Um, but you know, I, I mean, it's oftentimes it's not the things like, oh, I didn't get a role that like really devastate me or whatever. Mm-hmm. I mean, oftentimes it's just traffic. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, it's, it's a lot more of the mundane things that just like drive me crazy and I'll be like, oh my God, I'm pulling my hair. Like, oh, and I'm, I am ang, you know, whatever, uhhuh, you know, those small things that come up and, you know, and that's okay. And, uh, you know, it feels good in some ways. That's why we have these emotional responses. Mm-hmm. Because anger and disappointment and sorrow and, you know, crying, I mean, crying feels good, you know? Mm-hmm. There's something to it, there's a reason we do it, and it's not necessarily pleasant. Mm-hmm. But there's something about it that. It's, it's worthy of our attention, it's worthy of our time. Crying is definitely worthy of your time. I fundamentally believe with dedication, we could all, you know, live on a mountain side meditating 24 hours a day and be perfectly content. Mm. I'm not interested in that. Right. I, I want a messy life because I think that's, you know, the experience of this, that's what we're doing here. Mm-hmm. We're, we're, we're getting to be people. Um, I don't wanna spend my whole time stepped out of that. Yeah. Um, it reminds me of like, when I saw a kid, I, I did a show. I used to, you know, do some theater for kids. Mm-hmm. I made this one, uh, thing called the Talking Head. Mm. It was this big head and it had like a cloak behind it. And I came out and Ooh, I'm the talking head. And it was like a spooky character. Uhhuh. There was this kid in the audience who. Was like at the perfect age. Mm-hmm. Where he knew it wasn't real Uhhuh, but he didn't get that that was okay. Yeah. And that he could still just believe in it, Uhhuh. And so he stood on me. He goes, that's not a ghost, that's that actor guy we saw. I see his feet. And he kept turning to the eye. He wouldn't sit down. He said, I know that. No. And his mom was like, no, sit down. Like, no, but that's not, that's so real. It's not real. And it's'cause he was just at that perfect middle point, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he, he could see it, he could understand it wasn't real, but he couldn't understand that it was still okay to believe in it and just saturate himself and be affected, you know? Yeah. And I think that, that to me is like this, you know, not where he is, but the sweet spot is to be in the, on the other side of that, that he'll eventually get to where it's not real, but I'm still gonna let it affect me. Mm-hmm. Does your mind snap back? Like is that why the big disappointments don't get to you, do you think? Because I would say they don't get to me. I definitely feel disappointment on big things, but. I also, again, I don't, I'm not defining my success based on any of these. Um, I, I define my success for myself very clearly, and I think very differently than just, I want work and I want fame, and I wanna be on a TV show by the end of the next two years, and I need to manifest this. I don't, I just don't think that way about things. What's your success bar again? My success is that, that quote? Yeah. That quote. Yeah. Okay. That I will understand what it means to have been a person by the end of my life.'cause I feel, don't see what else there is. That's valuable. Right, right. And how do, how do you feel that's going right now? I, I mean, I think it's always, uh, what's great about it is we're so complicated that it, I'll never fully understand that. Right, right, right. And that's what's amazing. Yeah. I'll never fully understand what it means to be a person, you know? I mean mm-hmm. I understand my life up to this point. I don't understand what it's like to have a child. Mm-hmm. You know, that's something I want to understand. You know, I, I, I think like. So if you had 24 hours to be your favorite animal, Uhhuh. Ooh, okay. Okay. What would you do in those 24 hours? Everything. You wouldn't just nap, right? You'd be like, I wanna do all of the, you know, if it's a bird, you're like, I'm gonna fly. I'm gonna sit on an egg, I'm gonna go look for a worm. I'm gonna sing a song. Like you'd want to pack as much bird stuff Yeah. Into that 24 hours as humanly possible. Interesting. Because it would be a fleeting experience, and once it was gone, you would never get to experience it again. Right. And so, I think that way about our lives, like we want to, I want to pack as much of the human experience into my life as I possibly can before it's gone. Yeah. And I've found that acting is a loophole to access all types of human experiences that are otherwise on the other side of the fence. That makes so much sense. I just can't quite reach them because where I am, who I am, what life is, you know? Yeah. We don't live in Verona. Mm-hmm. So, you know, we, we can't ha unless we make a play and then we do it and we can, it's not the same thing, but it's something and. You get to sort of step into those worlds. Mm-hmm. Wow. That's really interesting. That's really enlightening about you to me, because I think you're one of the few actors I know who doesn't feel, uh, like, I don't know, like, like it doesn't feel like you are reaching, you know what I mean? I know you have ambition and aspirations, but it doesn't feel like you need it in the way that I think me and others. Well, I mean, I think it's important to note, and I think we started it with this, I'm six two, I don't need to reach that far. I'm saying Oh my God. But if you were six five, oh yeah. No, no, I'm kidding. No, but no. Yeah. Genuinely. I think that, you know, I, I went to a performing arts middle school. Mm-hmm. Um, and they wanted me to go through the high school program that they had too. I said, I want to go to a regular high school. Mm-hmm. This is a performing arts school. I want to be a regular high school kid. I wanna see what it's like to just go. To a, the most basic public high school. Yeah. And so that's where I went. I was like, I just don't want to be like the, it was all so artsy there, and it was just such not a regular high school experience. And the only theater I did was with a conservatory outside of school mm-hmm. On the weekends. And I did like speech and debate. I did like humor, uh, there, but mm-hmm. I wasn't like in the play, so I wasn't going to play rehearsal after school in high school. Mm-hmm. I wasn't hanging around in the theater at all. I didn't even know the director of the theater department at my high school. Yeah. Um, you know, and until she found out that, you know, like some of the schools I was called back for, for college, and she was like, wait, you, I didn't know you had, why did you never auditioned? Mm-hmm. And I was like, eh, I, I'm a guy who loves acting, but I'm not an actor. Mm. That was like my whole thing. Right. I was like, I'm, I'm not an actor. I'm a person who loves to act. Interesting. Um, because especially in high school, that was a thing like that. Those are the actor kids, and I just wasn't one of them. Even in college, I'd never really fit squarely in with the other theater majors. Mm-hmm. Okay. But you were a theater major? I was a theater major. Right. I was a theater major. I was had a BFA in acting, and they called me Slippery Will because I was always, yes. Because I was hard to get ahold of because I was That's so funny. Always running around with all types of kids from other, you know, different schools on our campus and just, you know, I mean, I definitely had a relationship with all of them and I, I, but, you know. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I was just, I never wanted to box myself into just one kind of a thing, and that included like, I'm just an actor. Yeah. Or like an acting student. It's my passion. It's the thing I love most. Mm-hmm. But yeah, I wonder if it's because it's like purely for you, it sounds like, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like my, I impulse, I think for me it's more about, I mean, I think it is. The river that flows the easiest for me. Like, I definitely feel like it is my passion, but I also feel like I am in it to help other people feel their emotions both good and bad. I'm in it for the person who has trouble emoting who can see me do something right. And have a release. Like, that feels like the community service aspect of it to me really Well, a hundred percent. You know, so it's just, but I think then for me, because it's sort of about other people in a way, it's not quite something like it is for you where you can kind of, you're doing it yourself. Like it's about this thing that's bigger than just acting. It's about like, understanding the human experience. Right. So any step that you take towards that is like a step towards you accomplishing your goal? Yeah, a a hundred percent. And I don't wanna say I'm not at all focused on other people in, in, you know, I, I do think that theater has the ability to do all types of positive things and mm-hmm. The arts can bring all types of positive change. But yeah, there is a fundamental part of it where it's like, you know. I believe that, I'm a part of this universe too. Mm-hmm. And I, the joy that I experience from something that I love is what that universal consciousness is experiencing when I'm in it. And that's sort of a, you know, a gift back to the collective in and of itself. Yeah. Um, of course I care very deeply about an audience. Mm-hmm. I, as you know, I get, I get very aggressively upset when I think that something isn't being done well and people are paying to come and see it. Mm-hmm. Um, in, in the theater world, uh, like, especially with like improv and stuff like that, it drives me crazy when people don't rehearse improv and they think they can just, they think they can just, they can just, oh wait. You know what? Yeah. And they just do a show and they charge a bunch of, and it's like, especially because I think it. It's what kills the industry. Mm-hmm. When people go to see a play that is not well thought out. Yeah. And not, well, there's not enough effort behind it. And there's just fundamental mistakes being made there. It, I think it kills our art form. Yeah. Because people aren't willing to go and try again. Totally. And so I'm very, very viscerally against, I want the audience to have a positive experience. Mm-hmm. Um, but I also just feel that, you know, my experience, uh, in doing it is if I'm, if I am in it, then they will be. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I, I want to bring people along, but it's important that I, you know, I just feel like I almost have the best show. When you don't realize it, you don't feel like you come off and you're like, oh, whoa. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. I had one more question, please. I mean, I have more questions, but about this for you, you not to bring up like the will files here, but I am, we saw each other at this Shakespeare thingy. A little fish, some workshop thing. And I brought this story up to you because I was saying that I bring it up all the time on this podcast. Yeah. And you were like, you said something like, it's ruined me. Like if I think about it too long, I get really depressed and I can't think about it anymore. Oh, well it's, it's part of the reason why I don't smoke weed. Mm-hmm. Uh, or things like that. Marijuana, marijuana. I'll go back to it. Uh, I don't, I don't do those things because again, it is the thing I talked about where, uh, when you shatter that illusion, you know, I'm just using metaphors here now. Right, right. I tried to do it directly earlier. I was, it was all over the place. But, but, but, but, but there's something about if you're in a movie theater mm-hmm. If you're too distracted by the fact that there's a projector behind you. Right. It ruins it. Yeah. And so smoking weed in some ways makes me hyper aware of this projector. Mm. Okay. Uh, in a way that does ruin it. I don't think the point is to, so there's a, there's a philosopher called Spinoza. Mm-hmm. his idea of God, and one of the things that he talks about is this concept of divine hiddenness. Okay. Which is, you know, if there's this God, why is he not more obvious and apparent? Mm. Why would he not just be in the town square, radiating light, answering all our questions, taking prayers and making himself obvious. Mm-hmm. Uh, and Spinoza's theory was that, well, he obviously doesn't want to be the focus then, right? He, he, the reason is because our lives are not meant to be lived in 24 hour worship of him or whatever it is. And we're supposed to be focused on what's before us, the things that are happening in our lives, all of these little dramas that we go through every day. Mm-hmm. That's clearly where our focus should be. Because it's what's presented to us. Mm-hmm, and so, you know, in some ways yes. This experience, once you, sort of look behind that curtain, you can't not look, you can't un look right. Right, right. You can't, you can't unsee something. Yeah. And so, yeah. Certainly is something where it's like I, I don't like to just, you know, escape into that. Mm-hmm. I like to escape into this, into my life. Mm-hmm. Um, if anything, I think that Right. If anything, I think that the opposite is true, which is that maybe that divine energy is escaping itself into us, um, and that we are an outlet for it. Mm-hmm. Um, if that makes sense. Yeah. Wow. Is there any time you feel that I feel what my energy the most, um, I definitely feel it when I'm Working on artistic projects. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It just sort of kicks in and I, I say I, I feel an energy, you know, um, it's not like I'm hyper aware of it, you know? Or if I, if I, again, it is something that I, of a pressure valve mm-hmm. It is something that I can remind myself of if I need to, in a circumstance where I feel overwhelmed, I can say, okay, this is just, this is a temporary life. Right? Yeah. Right. In a temporary world, it's okay. Right. I remember a time I was with this theater company in Pennsylvania, and I was there for a year, and I was, I was just so frustrated with this work project I had to do for them. I was walking down the street and this guy came up to me and he, you know, he was like a homeless guy. He was mm-hmm. You know, and it was, it was cold in Pennsylvania. He was wearing very little. And he came up to me, he said, Hey. Smile kid. It's not that bad. Yeah. And I was like, no. Okay. You know what, girl, when you write you Right. I mean, you know, that's hard to argue with, you know? And, um, but it was, it sort of shook off the idea that like yeah. These things that I'm so overwhelmingly focused on mm-hmm. Are, are not the end all, be all. Yeah. Especially because, you know, nothing that we deal with is the end all be all. Mm-hmm. You know, we're, we're all gonna, we're all going the same way. Right. We're here now, and at some point we're gonna be dead. Mm-hmm. And the interim is, full of many things, but they're all temporary. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know? Absolutely. Yeah. Does it make it harder for you to connect to people who have not had such a discovery? Like people who are really obsessed with, like, the outcome or the Oscar or stuff do, is it tough for you to connect with them? Uh, no. I wouldn't say it's tough for me to connect with them. I, I certainly don't share their desires. Yeah. But I also think that's their game. Yeah. Um, I mean, it's human to want for those kinds of things. Right. I mean, it's, it's very brave to say, I will not die happy. He satisfied. Yeah. Yeah. Lest I die with a thing, but only one in every, you know, you know, 7 billion people a year are awarded Right. For a very difficult and complicated industry in which I am trying to break in and haven't had a much success yet. Right. And, uh, and if I don't get that thing, then I will not be happy. And I go, wow. Well, here's to you good luck. It's, that's a, that's a way to up the stakes. Right. I mean, in the same way that in a play like this, this scene is a lot of stakes. Well, right. You've defined happiness in a very. Very specific, narrow way, and you are going for it. And that's a life and you know Right. Whether the success comes or not for them, that will be a, a worthy experience of a person. You know? I mean, if you mm-hmm. If you don't get the thing you want out of life, there's something profound in that. Mm-hmm. What is it like to live a whole life and not get it? Yeah, yeah. Um, that's, I don't, I think that that's as worthy an experience as getting it. I really love that. I love that. You know, because I agree. I think there's something, like, someone asked me the other day, what's my favorite thing about Los Angeles? And there's all, there's so many different things, but I was like, I think there's something about, there's so many people here who. Whether it's naive or not, they chose to do this one thing mm-hmm. That so many people want to, and I think there's something about being like in a land of dreamers and land of people who are using this one Yeah. Either one life to like pursue something. I think it's kind of beautiful. How I love how you put that. Mm-hmm. Like, it's just whether that you get it or not. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I, I mean I, I think that to the point that they get to a place where it is no longer enjoyable at all, I would recommend Yeah. Redefine. Right, right. Uh, assess what it is about the thing itself that you enjoy, but you know, power to you it, you know, set those, set those, set those things up. But, also, you know. Rebel in that disappointment if it were to come through. Right. You know, if you hit, if you hit rock bottom, admire the gravel, you know, check it out, whatever, whatever happens, you know, I think that that's sort of, yeah. Yeah. I did have like a kind of a microcosm experience that like, reminds me of what we're talking about because I, because I kind of defined it as, okay, it's about helping people feel things through my, my work. Like, that's part of what I love about it. Mm-hmm. And I did this monologue at the Shakespeare forum, which I've talked to you both about. Mm-hmm. And like, I really affected somebody who was there, and I was like, oh, so like, I've done it. Like, there was something about what you're saying, like, so I have been successful, like, if that was my goal mm-hmm. Then like, I am already successful in my goal just by the one person. Right. Yeah. Like, I, like then that's it. Then the rest of it is just like, I can do whatever I want. Die happy, hopefully not soon. Yeah. You know? Yeah. But so, but, so what is it, why do you wanna make people feel, what is it about, you know, um, because you certainly, it's not like you're only making them feel good. No. So what, why, you know, same thing goes, you know, if we, if we. If we're asking the question about, you know, why feel the negative things? Yes. Why would you ever agree to do a play that would leave an audience member's had? Right. Right, right. It's almost like for me, it doesn't feel like want, it feels like the purpose, like, without trying to sound like really, like my purpose is it gen, it genuinely feels like I am a person who has the capacity to feel a lot of things and to like be able to translate that into different ways to be a vessel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It feels like that is the most right. Like I, that's why the river thing, like, it feels like mm-hmm. So it almost isn't like I want to, it's like I, like I need to, like, that's the, the purpose for me being here is to like ex have, but I think it got muddled and continues to, I'm sure like, it's just so easy for it to get muddled with like the success thing of it all and like the money, because then like the institutes of life of like having the money to get a house and the kids and you know, like all that stuff is. It's not easy to combat, because obviously art takes a lot of time and effort to do. Yeah. And the payoff is nice when it happens. Yeah. So, yeah. Hmm. You say you feel naturally on a very high level. Yeah. Would you, would you want to alter that? Would you? No. Would you like, you like feeling on a high level, even though you know that it means that when something negative happens, you feel it on a very high level? Yes. Well, I also had the experience of like not doing that for a while. Like I, I had the experience of hurting myself to not feel things for a long time because I felt like it was kind of shamed and like frowned upon and things like that, like embarrassing, you know? Hmm. So I think, but I also just think like ourselves, like our true selves have all like kinda what you're saying, we have all the feelings. Yeah. Like the true is version of ourself is not afraid to cry or be laugh hysterically or whatever. Right. It's just like people's life experience has narrowed the box more and more and more and more. So where now they only feel comfortable feeling like. A to D and like, that's it. Yeah. Yeah. And, and yet even that is, there's something in that, that's so human. Yeah. That we are these things that have this, we can't help but to feel, and yet our feelings then inspire other feelings mm-hmm. That try to hone in on our feeling. I mean, that's, that's, imagine how complicated we are. I mean, we're, you know, I'm, I'm sad, but I'm embarrassed about being sad. Yeah. So I'm mad at myself. Yeah.'cause I, and I know I shouldn't be embarrassed about being sad'cause I should be free to be sad, but I have this shame and I mean, wow. How complicated. That's to me, what's so worth exploring. Mm-hmm. Like we have these multi-leveled feelings that play against each other and they work together and across from each other. And then also we're in this great mystery of a world that, you know, yeah. We all have ideas about, but no one fully understands, you know? Mm-hmm. Beyond the shadow of a doubt what's going on. So there are competing ideas and d different people who are difficult and we have to work with all of that. And that's, it's just,, I think it's just, it's such a great setup. Yeah. You know? Yeah. It's incredible to, to like use, you know, we, we don't use the word imagination. I, all of a sudden was like, wow. I, when you guys asked me what do I love about acting, I forgot to say imagination. This idea. You're sharing I think that's it. Like this imagination train cycle starts happening. Like how great does that feel? You know, like when you know that you affected, even if it is negative, even It is. Yeah. And to, by the way, that's exactly a word that I, I'm going circle back to what I was saying earlier about on my acid trip. That was what the realization was. It was a realization that the world that we're experiencing is on some level in imagination. And that is why my mind could alter it. And the realization that it was. An imagination mm-hmm. Is what dropped me into this feeling of, oh, there's something else going on here. Mm-hmm. It's not just this physical thing. Yes. The imagination is real and it is the experience. Mm. Because if you could change it in your mind, then it's not Yeah. Yes. Unchangeable. Yeah. I mean, you know, we could then hypothetically all be imagining just whatever. I mean, we could all be imagining right now that we're holding an Oscar, our brains are capable of creating the imagery of us standing in front of all of your favorite celebrities holding an Oscar. Right. Every night when you sleep. But that's generally not what we dream. Mm-hmm. And it's because we're dreaming about more interesting things than that, you know? At least I think so. My dreams are far more interesting than an award show. Mm-hmm. So do you think, do you believe in the idea of a soul? Um, I believe in an idea of, so, so when you say a soul, you're talking about like sort of a, an individual. Self, right? Yeah. I believe in an idea of a soul, but that soul is, we all have the same soul. Okay. Okay. Sure. There's one soul that is all of our souls. Okay. So when you die mm-hmm. Your soul is just, goes into another finger, like another, a pointer now experience of somebody else, or your soul just goes back up into the white light place, or we don't know. So yeah, it, this is, this is sort of, this goes into my sort of my thoughts about, I guess reincarnation, if you were to say it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I don't believe in reincarnation in the basic sense. Mm-hmm. But every time there's a baby born, my belief system is that that baby is the deeper me, the deeper us. So every incarnation is a reincarnation. Okay. And, um, if that makes sense. Yeah. There, there it's all you. And it's getting like deeper and deeper because of like, almost like computer processing stuff comes to mind. Like, like the software, the white light is learning more and more with each of the finger. Items. And so then the, the next baby that's born knows more. Or is it more like recycled or just It's another experiencer. Mm. There's a new experiencer. You know, it's just, it's, it's another you that's gonna live a whole nother life mm-hmm. And maybe convince itself it needs an Oscar. Right. Right. And get disappointed. You know, it's just, but it's all gonna be felt in the same place. Mm-hmm. The same way that this hand is being felt in the same way, you know, in the same hemisphere that this one is, but Right. They're separate. Mm-hmm. Um, in some way, but they're not in another, it's, it, you know, there's, it's sort of That makes sense. Yeah. There's this connectedness behind the scenes. Mm-hmm. But it's much more singular than I think we give it credit for. Mm. Um,, we, we are so focused on being this pinky Yeah. That we can't let go of the idea that this pinky is its own thing. Um Right. We just can't let go of it. And, and, and it's just our brains won't easily let us. Yeah, definitely.'cause I feel like I have been struggling with that in this conversation. Yes. To be like, no, it's very hard because it's the idea because you feel so individual. Right. You have this very individual sensation about you. Yeah. And it's very hard to shake that off and to say, or to, or to view it as this idea that it's, you know, this is in, in some way, the three of us are just one, one energy having this conversation Mm. From three different perspectives with itself. And so, yeah. In a weird way it reminds me of ai. Whoa. Really? In a weird way. It does. Like, I mean, I mean maybe I think it's just on my mind.'cause I just hadn't auditioned to be a robot for a TV show, which was really great and fun. But it was, it just reminded me of how like. In these fantasy worlds and like, probably, I mean, in our lifetime, certainly there will be like robots that are around and like they are themselves, but they're also Oh, like a creation of us. And that's why I think so much sci-fi explores like, what if they are just like, what if they detach from the consciousness of like what is created of them in the same way that we're talking about like, what if I am just the pinky? I don't wanna be a part of the thing. Like, that's why the idea of like this soul is like, we're separate. It's, it is not the same. So, I don't know, it's just reminding me of that. I know you don't do drugs anymore. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Now that you've peeked behind the current as you referred to it mm-hmm. Um, have you, is there a way to at least get sliver of this idea? Obviously this is now your belief system and it's not what you've carried. And obviously it's gone further and it's how you see the world, it's how you live your life. It's how you mm-hmm. You know, process things. Do you ever get a flash of the curtain moving? Mm. And like, how does that happen for you?'cause obviously you don't do drugs anymore. Happen all, yeah. Like what? What's it for you specifically? It can happen in all types of things, you know what I mean? Yeah. It can just happen in anything that doesn't seem to make sense, which doesn't even necessarily mean it isn't just a coincidence or whatever, but, you know, when we have coincidences happen sometimes, Ooh, that's spooky. Mm-hmm. But for me, when I have that, Ooh, that's spooky. I'm like, oh, wait a minute. I remember this was weird. I, I've seen that curtain move before. Maybe, I don't know if that's what this is, but Oh. Oh. And then the memory of the experience is still there. I've had flashbacks. It's also called LSD Flashbacks. Yeah. Yeah. Where people flashback. That's why I can't smoke. Yeah. If I'm at a party and I smoke a little bit of weed, I start having an outof body experience. Yeah. And it's just not very befitting. Okay. Of the party environment. No, no, no. Um, you, it now, people are trying to cut loose and I'm like, ooh. Um, is it different now? In what way? Like, because of the time that's passed, you mean? Well, yeah.'cause it's like, wait, do you meditate? Uh, I do on occasion. Okay. When I feel so motivated, but it's not a regular practice. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, I just like, do you do, I guess, do you seek it in, in, in other forms? I guess I would this feeling or, or is it now that, you know, it's there, like you said, I feel like I almost got the answer with you saying like, when coincidence happens or, you know, like that. And I also think that for me, humor is sort of a, a hint and a wink at it in a lot of ways. Mm. Um, I think that when we're able to laugh it's because we're not taking things seriously. And I, I make a lot of jokes. It's because I think that we shouldn't take everything so seriously because part of me is like, you know, this isn't really what's going on in some level there. Yeah. You know, it is what's going on, but it's not, but we're in a play. It's for play. Yeah. So let's make it a play thing. Yeah. Um, you know, this is for play and, we should laugh because it's okay to laugh. There's actually, the psychology behind laughter is really fascinating. Um, it's designed to sort of indicate to other people, this is not serious. Mm. Uh, there's, then there's something unexpected has happened. But laughter is the opposite of a signal to a scream. Evolutionarily to indicate to other chimps when we were, you know, monkeys. Yeah. Uh, no, no. It's okay. That something just snapped over here. But it was, this guy fell. We're fine. Everyone's okay. Oh, interesting. He's not hurt ing everything's okay. Ha ha ha. Like, it's sort of a relief notification versus a scream is one of distress. So when something in the, in the path of normality, alters. We have a response that either indicates we're safe or we're not safe. Mm. Um, and, and the alternative is that when they were roughhousing with each other, they would laugh to indicate I'm not attacking you. Mm-hmm. This is playful. Wow. That's really interesting. I didn't know that. Yeah. And so I think that when we laugh at life, it's sort of the same thing. It's, yeah. This is not a assault from the universe. This is, it's just roughhousing with me a little bit. Right. And, you know, maybe it's uncomfortable, but it's just sort of, it's got me in a noie. It's, you know. Mm-hmm. But it, it does, it's, it's play. Mm-hmm. I love that. I do too. Yeah. Um, so what are some of your, like, spiritual practices that you do, if any? Yeah. I mean, I don't do a lot. Yeah. Um, I, I, again, I like I was just saying, I think that strangely my biggest spiritual practice is I, I, make sure I laugh a lot every day. I look for the humor in things I look for. I, I seek that out. Um, and I think that there is something very spiritual in that. Okay. Do you surround yourself with things like, do you feel like you watch more comedies and stuff in order to achieve this, or is it just about like situational like that? No, it's mostly in my own life. I was gonna say, do you crack yourself up? Because I love Oh, when I crack myself up. Oh yeah. I mean, I, it's rare that I'm not making a, you know, a joke somewhere, you know? I mean, this conversation has been very devoid of my regular constant antics, insufferable antics way. But yeah, I like that. Um, find the laughter. Find the laughter. Yeah. I'm hilarious. So that's, no. Um, is there anything you wanna promote or say or any of that? No, absolutely not. Um, yeah, this is really, really great. This is some, yeah. And really eyeopening and I'm like really thinking about this in a different way now of the world, oneness of it all. And I really feel like the reason I latched onto that story is'cause it was the first time that like the universal consciousness idea was brought to me. Yes. I remember That made any sort of sense. And I think I, I've spent, well, I think I've, I think I've remedied that here. I think I, I bet we have some very confused listening. No, it makes more sense to me, any of my normal sense. I think I, no, it makes a lot more sense to me now. I, yeah. I don't know. I gotta think about it more, but I think it makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. I, I am. Just leave us with this. Okay. Weirdly, now. So,'cause again, I've always said for energy, I feel like the word that you've used a lot was this conscious, conscious consciousness. Consciousness. Consciousness. And now, oh, I'm like forming both and I am getting like this weird, not flubber. Okay. Take flubber. Like make him more like, kind of like, um, like just goop or like, go this person. But it's like more clear, but it's all like, all of a sudden, that's how I'm picturing this now. And by the way, the whole thing is that there's no word that can ever wrap it up. Right? Yeah.'cause every word is smaller than, right? Yeah. It's, it's like the idea of infinity. Mm-hmm. You can say infinity, you put an eight on its side and beyond it will not. Exactly. And beyond it will never encapsulate. Right. The concept behind it. Right. Right. Yeah. Um,'cause it's everything. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's quite literally. The whole. Yeah. Yeah. That's why we can't focus on it. We go focus on laughing our life. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And laughter. I love that. I love that. Well, thank you so much for being there. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for uh, yeah, for having me on. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Yeah. This has been spo ODA until next time lived. Well, I thought we were doing, oh, what did we do for the love of it? Okay. Okay. You do it. We'll get, we can edit that out. 1, 2, 3. Oh, you wait. Okay. You do the whole close. You just do the whole close. I'm just gonna shut up because I, I, okay. Alright. Thank you so much for listening and just remember for the love of it. Wow. I liked the arm gesture. Good job. Thank you. Should always do the close thing. Thank you. Brilliant.