Maxon Davis (Actor/Director/Theater Maker) and Navigating The Non-Meritocracy That Is An Acting Career

This episode begins with an Ari/Olivia catch up discussing last episode’s spiritual practice (Alec Engerson's homework of watching “Woman Under The Influence”). We then segue into a brief but quite loud meltdown from Ari about the anger she’s harboring towards this industry rn and Olivia very kindly brings in the light.

Our interview with Max centers around his navigation of the non-meritocracy that is a career as an actor and what he’s found to make it less stressful, his take on spirituality, and how simple kindnesses to strangers can be really transformative.

Max is the co-runner of Shakespeare Forum LA, a group of artists that meets every Tuesday night (for free) to perform, get feedback, and be radically supported by other artists: https://www.theshakespeareforum.org/ 

Come through! It's a great time.

Follow us: @spodapod

Follow Max: @maxon.davis

Email us at spoda.contact@gmail.com

Beautiful music by: Doug Harvey 

Transcript

0:11

Uh, wow. Okay. I loved that. I like really, I wanted to join in, but then I didn't, and then I was like, is it gonna be a Lion King? But like, I just wanted to see what was gonna happen. Then I thought, oh, should I try to harmonize with you? But I was like, I don't think I'm gonna able to do that. I think I'm gonna ruin it. So anyway, I love that. Thank you. It's really meditation. I love it. Ida, what a great, what a great intro. Although I kind of wanna, the blanking one though. Soda. I learned recently that it's, they're just saying. A lion. He's a lion. Okay. That's what I thought I've, I'd gotten that. I got that. So many people sent that to me on Instagram. Really? Yes. 'cause of, 'cause it's Disney, so people are like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I got so many, but then I heard that that also wasn't true. So I've heard like both, so I don't, I dunno, who knows? I don't know. What do we wanna wait? It's a lion. Great. It's a podcast about spirituality. I love how the end of your songs, you always just kind of find like a newbie. Like it's like, it's like there's a melody and then it's like an additional like separate secret melody I love. It's kinda like, like a speakeasy. It's like the door, there's like a bag, a little underground door. That's nice song. That's because it's easy. I just lost the melody. Yeah, just me losing it. Oh, welcome. Welcome to. Spo a spiritual practices of the disgruntled artist, where every episode we have on a new artist and we learn about their spiritual history and their spiritual practices and what is keeping them sane in this incredibly challenging time to be an artist. Mm-hmm. And then we borrow one of the said practices, and Ari and I try 'em out and see how it goes. So this last episode was Alec Engerson and he loves him. Yeah. What is it like? So good. So good. Just like candid and, mm-hmm. Delightful. Funny. I had a great time. Yeah. So good. Uh, he was, uh, his spiritual practice was basically movies. Yeah. And we're supposed to, to watch a woman under the influence. Yep. It was like 1972. Yeah. Yeah. I'm totally forgetting the actress's name. That specifically was Gina Rowland, I think. I think Gina Rowland. Okay. Sure. We can always look it up and, yeah. And tell me I'm wrong. Yeah. Tell us I'm wrong often. Uh, but that was specifically what he assigned us because of her performance. And then, and if we have time to go to the movies, which, which we did not go to the movies. We didn't have time. I did go to the movies, but I did not. Okay. It went for both of us. Yeah. I went for you. Yeah. What about, um, so did you watch Women Under the Influence? I did. How did you feel about it? Oh, a deep breath going. No, here's the thing. It was like his whole thing was like eating your veggies, right? Sure. Yep. And it felt like eating my veggies. Okay. Not a fan. I will say the acting was incredible. You know, she was great. She's fantastic. She was. Yeah. Absolutely. And, and so was he the guy who was also like the grandpa and, uh, um, princess Bride. Oh, oh, is he? Yeah, he's a, he's her husband. And so like, so Oh, he was in, I didn't, I didn't clock him. Grant was like, oh, that's, you know. Yeah. Yeah. But it's about men mental illness. Mm-hmm. And it was just. Hard to watch. Yeah. Like it, it was uncomfortable. Like it really, and, and it was long too, you know? Yes. So I think, I think it was very slice of life and, and which I don't mind, I do like Slice of Life movies, but I think because of just, it was just hard to watch and witness it made it difficult. Yeah. So that's why, I mean, like, I was like, it was really good and I think. I really appreciate movies that like, have an intention and really set, like, stuck to it. Yeah. Like I felt it, you know, like I, I see the work that was done. Mm-hmm. And it felt very much of its time. And uh, and it was also commenting very much on like the social, like blue worker Yes. Status. So like, yeah. Like I, like I, I don't know if I would ever watch it again. Right. On letterbox. I actually haven't, uh, write it, but I gave it a three. We, like, I appreciated it. I just like, it was just hard and, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was hard. I didn't make it all the way through. I made it like 45 minutes in. Mm-hmm. I think part of that is because it was hard. Mm-hmm. And part of that is because, I mean, I thought she really did an incredible job. Oh yeah. But I think anything to do with kids, I just get like, it's like hard for me. And I, so I saw like the kids in the beginning, before they leave with the grandmother. Mm-hmm. But like I knew that the kids were gonna come back into the picture and I was just like. It just felt very upsetting in a way that was not serving me to see like a mom who is sick like that. Yeah, like with her kids. Yeah. And also because like, I am not sick like that. Like I don't have bipolar like OCD that I know of, but like I, being a mom makes me feel crazy sometimes. You know what I mean? Yeah. And like that opening scene with her, like with the kids and be hosting. Yeah. Like, that was me yesterday, basically. You know what I mean? Yes. Minus the bipolar, but like. Yeah. Like it is, I don't even know if it was bipolar. Really. It's want, it's really, it's unclear. Okay. To me what it was. All right. And that that's another, I would love to discuss it with Alec and be like, yes, we should bring it back up. Break it down. Bring it, break it down for me. Yes. Because I see there was a lot of work being done. Yes. But it just was like, oh, this is like. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was very interesting. Yeah. And she like didn't hide it at all. Like, I thought it was interesting that it wasn't like somebody who's hiding their mental illness, like it was like full force. Yeah. But yeah, I think that is just like, stories with kids are just like tough. And I don't push myself like maybe one day I'll have to act about a story with kids and like I'll have to confront that when I get there. But, but yeah, like, but like, it kind of made me, I mean, a couple of things. Okay. So I did appreciate it for like the amount of work she put into it and I thought she was really good. And then I also. Got kind of mad because I thought I know I could do that part. You know what I mean? I just am not given the opportunity even born yet. Kind of circle back. I know, right? Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it made me circle back around to like just my general, like grieving of this career and like. Like things that like, I mean, it's not a new thought. Like if you, you could be the best astronaut in the world, but like at this point you're probably not gonna be an astronaut. You know what I mean? Right. Unless you were to fully upend your life, like, you know what I mean? Like, it's kinda like if I'm never given a role like that. I'm never gonna get to play that unless I were to make it myself. But like, you know what I'm saying? Like Yeah. It just made me feel like, 'cause I think I'm just in the thick of like the grieving of Right. What this thing is for me. Right. And like what, it's not for me. So like it brought some of that stuff up. It also kind of coincides with I listened to a podcast episode about mom rage because I've been really trying. Okay. Like I think, I mean, we gotta normalize mom rage because like people. Are people and they get angry and there's things that are just screaming in your face all the time. Yes. And then you like calm yourself down and then they just do it again. Right, right. Like, it's like it is a crazy making experience. It's the toughest. It's the toughest world. Toughest, toughest job in the world. It's so tough people. It is. Yeah. It's so tough. And now they're like five and three, which I think is like great ages, but also really hard. Yeah. And, but I don't like how much I'm yelling basically. Mm-hmm. Um, and not like. Even necessarily at them. Like sometimes, but, but even just around them or just like kind of losing it. Like, I don't like the feeling of like losing control. Yeah. Nothing physical or anything like that. But like, it just makes me feel like a failure when I'm like pushed past the point and like I start yelling I don't like that. Yeah. Well, you're not a failure. Thank you. I have to say that I'm trying. It's natural and it's great that you are, I, I think, I mean, uh. I think all of us, I, I have experienced our parents losing it, like losing it, like, you know what I mean? Like, it's just like part of it. Right. I think obviously there's a limit, but like you are definitely not even close. Yeah. And like, it's just good. And also just like, it sounds like you also, you know, you're doing it for them first. Mo you know, first, first off, but you also like do it for yourself too. Like, it's just hard to be. In that it's fight or flight, but like yeah, that like, but it, yeah, but like I listened to this podcast and it brought that up and I thought, oh my God. I mean, one of the things that brought up was like, you know, if you are in a state of stress, it's fight flight, freeze fawn. But if you're a mom with little kids, like. You can't flight. Right. You're not gonna leave them. Yeah. Yeah. You can't freeze. That would be dangerous. Yeah. You can't fawn because that's like trying to appeal to them. Yeah. Yeah. And like that's not gonna work with toddler, so the only option you have is fight. So like my body constantly feels like it is in a state of fight. Mm-hmm. But one thing it said, which I feel like relates back to the artist world. Yeah. It was like, what is anger and their definition of it. And one of them, it's two moms, one of them is like a, is a psychologist. Okay. I think specifically like perinatal, psych, psych or something. And she said like, anger is when you have a goal and you are being blocked from your goal. Mm-hmm. So in the state of motherhood, it could be like, I really wanna eat a sandwich, and every time I go to your sandwich, someone's yelling at me. But I thought, oh. My career is a constant source of anger for me. Like if that is the definition of anger is like you have a goal and you're constantly being blocked from it, then I have been angry for like, like the past seven years, honestly, I realized, oh, so I'm already starting in a deficit. I'm not starting from a place of like no anger because my career, part of my life is like. Just a constant goal being blocked, goal being blocked all. Well, I'm curious, so like, I wonder if it like translates, does what they say and like how to remedy this or how to get through this, could it relate Like as a parent? Yeah. As a mom, their solution to parent rage? Mm-hmm. Could that I was trying translate to, I was hoping so. I mean, I didn't, I, that I felt very validated by it. I didn't get too much like. Tangible things away from it that I'm not already doing, which is like, you have to take care of yourself and I do so much of that. I like go to yoga all the time. I, I meditate all the time, you know? Yeah. So, I don't know. I think it's just really like, I, I guess the, I just think I just need to like, accept it, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, I need to, yeah. It will happen. I don't know that it'll, you know. I mean, we know so much. It's like there's so much ebb and flow. It's, it's, it's this, this state and this frustration is not permanent. It might come back. Right? Like, I think there's like this like feeling of like, it's frustrating when it comes back and, you know, it's like you have to. Almost start from, you know, levels level one again. But yeah, I don't know. I just like. I don't know how to like not be angry about it. And I like also don't know how to leave it, you know what I mean? Like I even, I'm going through fucking TBM, I'm going through like the authenticity challenge thing, which is very focused on the authentic code, which you talk about all the time. Yeah, yeah. And like, I redid all of it and still like acting and performing is still in there. And I was like really hoping it wouldn't be, you know what I mean? I was like, can I just kinda like get this thing. Away, you know? Right. But like, I don't think I can, like, I think it's just like is really in me, you know? So I don't know. I really don't know. And I want it to be enough. Like I made that sketch yesterday of like people who live in Los Angeles. Like it felt good. That was like the happiest I'd felt in days, like creating something and getting to do what I love to do and lights me up. But are again, like those little sketches going to be fulfilling for me. In any real way, like, I don't think so. You know, and is me like doing self tape after self tape and like gonna really be fulfilling for me in any way? I don't think so. Like, I'm not getting. I don't think I'm getting any better. Like I think I'm getting better 'cause I have more life, but like I'm not getting better 'cause I'm not like on set with people, working with people and like exploring things in real time. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. So I just don't know what like the end game is. You know? Like I just don't know what the end game is. I mean, I feel, I mean, I feel similarly. I mean, I think it's just like we both know we want to do this, right? Yeah. And. Yeah, we have those blocks, like we have other factors of like not getting cast. Like there's other, you know, it's not just us deciding, you know, we're not millionaires, so we can't just be like, we're gonna put a producer home show and do it. Yeah, yeah. You know, like we just have, it's subject to so many other things, but I don't know. I, I, I think. The best we can do is like, I, I, I don't think, just like not doing it right or leaving it behind and like, I know you don't want it to be on your list, but like, it's okay that it is on your list. I think it's okay that we want this and it's okay. That it's hard. It's, it's, it's frustrating, but like, I think, I mean, I hate to pull the for the love of it. Yeah. But like, I think we would just have to like. Do that, but also I remember, like I sent you the Will Ferrell thing. Yeah. I love that thing. Yeah. Will Ferrell had an interview on another podcast, and I'm so sorry. Once again, I don't know who it is, but I sent it to Arian on Instagram. It's like, just real quickly, his father will Ferrell's father, like sat him down and he's like, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna go to la. I am really gonna pursue this thing. And he was like, if it had anything to do with success, I wouldn't be worried. Right. Talent, not. Sorry. Thank you. Yeah. If it had anything to do with talent, I wouldn't worry about you. Right. Um, and that, like, just do it. But like, if you find yourself banging your head against the wall, like it's okay to quit. Mm-hmm. And like, I think it's just hard to be like close to that. Like, to be banging your head and then like seeing the door. Mm-hmm. Right? Like you almost want to open it. Like you almost want to be like, fine. Like I don't want to care about this. Right. I think that's like the hardest part. I think we're just getting the hardest part right now, honestly. But like what is, I mean, it's interesting you sent me that. 'cause I told, I told my high school kids about that. Yeah. When like we were talking about college and stuff. Like I try to be really honest with them without being total Debbie Downer about mm-hmm. What this thing actually is. But like I told 'em about the lot of balls in like a nice way. Yeah. And I told 'em about the Will Ferrell thing, but like, I guess that. That clip also makes me feel like I am banging my head against the wall. It is making me angry and upset most of the time, but it's not because of the thing. I still wanna do the thing, you know what I mean? So like I just. I don't know. I mean, maybe part of the acceptance is like realizing that you get to do the thing if you make the thing. And like, I really don't want that to be the case. Like I don't wanna be just like only able to do this when I make my own work and, and I'm not a billionaire. Totally. And I don't have unlimited time or resources in which to do that. Yeah. So I get that. I think that's like when people were like, oh, you should make your, you know, I was so excited about and proud of absurd person. Singular. Yeah. And producing all of that. But I think I was very much in that like. Oh, but I just wanna be cast, right? Like I don't wanna like have to do the thing, but I I think we can And we do. Yeah. And we find so much joy in it. And that's all. I mean, it sucks, but I think that's all we can do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm still just trying to like be able to reframe my mind in it while still being in it. And like part of me, I had like a whole funeral for the career I thought I would have. At the beach. Yep. And I wrote a letter to it of like what I thought it was gonna be and how it's let me down and all the things I put into it. And also like thanked it for all the amazing things and people that brought me, like you and my husband. Yeah. Like all the things. Yeah. And like I buried in the sand like it felt, I feel like it let some helped me let a little bit go, but like not a lot, like not enough, you know what I mean? Right. Like part of me is like worried that I can't really Grieve it and like get to a place where like, this is the new version of my career. Right. Where I just like am only making my own stuff without actually leaving it. Right. Like really leaving it well, like even though it's not new, new in your psyche, it is like kind of a new chapter, right? Yeah. This, this mentality. And so yeah. It's gonna take, it's gonna take time. Yeah. You know? Thanks for listening to me cry. Sorry. It's the same old story. No, I think that's, I think if you're an artist, you probably like Yeah, I think so. Yep. Yep. It's the same old story. Yep. That's what this whole thing is about, is how do we. Navigate it. Yeah. Yeah. All right, spies. Well, we hope you enjoy, uh, Maxon Davis. Woo. Um, it's an interesting episode. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm excited. Enjoy. Yay. And, uh, I was driving to a catering gig in San Francisco mm-hmm. And called him at work and I was like, Hey, dad. And he's like, well, what do you call it? Like, what have you done? Like, are you in trouble? And I was like, no, no, just, uh, I booked the show. It's at the Magic Theater in San Francisco. Um, Elaine May is directing, Jenny Berlin is in it. Like, uh, Marlo Thomas is in it. I get to meet Donahue. This is really exciting, but it's a union job. Um, and so I can't use my name anymore. I have to sign a contract and give them a professional name. And I was thinking of using Maxon Davis, would that be okay? And, and he goes, um, and then there's this pause on the phone. Right. And he's a lawyer and they're really used to taking their time. Mm-hmm. Sure. Right? Like one of the things they tell you is if you're ever taking a deposition, the deposition doesn't show how long you, you thought about something. So take your time. Pause. Don't just I thought about that. Right. By the way, we're recording this 'cause I knew it was gonna be a good story. Now I have a cold open because I knew it was gonna be good and then I didn't wanna tell you to redo it. Yeah. And I knew whatever it was was gonna be good. So we're recording it, just so you know. Totally great lawyers. Okay. Um, so we took a long pause. So he took this long pause and thought about it and I'm driving down the 1 0 1, like I, oh God, what have I done? Like, and he goes, yeah, it's okay. Just don't do any smut films. He was, he was touched. There's no way He wasn't like holding back tears, right? Yeah. That's why he paused. He was like trying to keep, try to sound tough. A hundred percent. Yeah. Sure, sure. I love that. So great. Um, okay. Welcome. I love cold open. That was great. A cold open before. It was good. It was smooth. It was, it was smooth. We know how we got your name. Deda. What are you gonna say? I was gonna say, now we know how we got your name. Yeah. Max at the end. I didn't record the beginning. The, the viewers will never know. Oh, welcome on. Yes. Hello. Thank you. We have Maxon Davis. He's an actor. He is a theater maker. He's the co-host of Shakespeare Form la, which we talk about actually rather frequently. Yeah, we do. And we had the other co-host on Jake Elitzer. He's a great guy. He's a great guy. Great guy with a bad back. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Um, but thanks for being here. Yeah. Thank you so much. So happy to be here. Yay. Um, historically we begin this with either pulling a card or taking three deep breaths, or both. You get to choose your choice. Let's do both. Okay. And when you say good ones, pulling a card, I'm guessing this isn't like a, you know, playing cards like, oh, you drew the Ace of Spades. No, but that would be fun. That would be fun. Then it could be like how we, or a Hallmark, it's like a Hallmark card. Like, oh, here you go. Happy Mother's Day. Yeah. That would also be fun. Are these Oracle? I mean, these are Oracle. So they're dissimilar to tarot where there's not like a set where like, kind of like a deck of cards, you know, they have a suite, same with tar tarot cards. Mm-hmm. Um, but these do not, these are just Oracle cards, so they're a little bit nicer. Yeah. These are, yeah, me, Lisa. Oh, okay. I would say like, there's less interpretation with Oracle cards because you're gonna pull one and I'm gonna read you what it means. Where tarot a lot of it is. Yeah. You can do the same thing where you can have a booklet, but a lot of it is like the symbolism and each card represents like they're more interpret more interpretative than, than, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But these are great. These are my favorite. That's why I think I would go on these. Yeah. They're like themed after like Gaia and Goddesses. So. I'm a big fan of goddesses. Sure, yeah. Yeah. In fact, like the sooner you women could take over everything. Oh, we girl, we're trying, we're trying better. Yeah, it's obstacles. Move that right along. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. Uh, so, uh, if you can cut the deck with your left hand. Great. And then that card on top is yours. The Tetris. This is the one I was talking about last time. Oh, wow. Okay. Okay. This, I, I believe in these cards now. Yeah, we converted You already. That's crazy. He comes to me like, I'm not spiritual. This one's a bit of a like, watch out. Okay. You ready? Okay. The temperatures lay it on me. Seduction, deceit of broken promise. Ooh, you are being seduced in dazzling promises that will mostly not eventuate. In effect, you're being deceived oh and enticed into accepting something that will cause you much difficulty and eventually lead you to only dis to disappointment. Don't be seduced by the glitz and glamor or by the holy and benevolent facade. Things are not what they seem. Incredible promises are simply that incredible. Observe the image on the card. The temptress entices with her sensuous beauty and exotic surrounding. Yet just behind her is all seeing eye of truth. It's staring you in the face all along. Take a few steps back, look at things from an objective and balance perspective, and the real picture and hidden agenda agenda will emerge. Whoa, does that say anything to you? And if that's okay. I, I thought I was going to get to be the tempts. You know what? We can interpret it that way if you want. Maybe that's the temptation of ego, right? Seducing me from a deeper understanding. Did that speak to you at all? That's so funny. Do you feel that there's anything in your life that is deceiving? I'm an actor in Hollywood. Sure. All that glitters is not gold, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The temptress, yeah. This is the card I was scared of. Oh good. Okay. Well that happened. Yeah. Yeah. That's so funny. Maybe I manifested it. Why were you scared of it? Because I just like don't wanna bomb anyone out, and I knew, I feel like I pulled this one too, so I think I get upset personally when I pull it. You're actually also being nice by not saying what I said, which that I always want somebody to pull a card. That is challenging because I feel like it makes people talk about stuff more. Yeah. More quickly. Yeah. Yeah. But not you. We'll get there. Clearly not. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Should we take our breaths? Yes. I okay. That was nice. Breathing's. Good. We haven't done that in a while. We haven't done that one. Thanks for bringing that to us. Yeah, thank you. I'm here to help. Also, it's also very, very theatery. Right. Every time I take a deep breath, I just feel like I'm getting ready for a show. Well, I was like, I wonder if they're gonna edit this out. And I was like, no, I hope they don't. No. And then I was imagining listening to it and I was like, I am definitely one of those people who, like, when someone dives underwater in a movie, holds their breath. Yes. So I would be breathing along good with this podcast can't help us. Yeah. Right. We encourage people to, to do that. Yeah. I hear it's good breathing. Yeah. I heard somebody on here who was it? They were like, I don't breathe more than the normal amount or more than the required amount. More than I need. It was like, I can see that. Um, so can you, can you start by telling us a little bit about like your spiritual background history, how you grew up, um, religiously or spiritually? It's a tough question. I don't really consider myself a spiritual or religious person. Okay. Right. Um. In fact, when you asked me to do this, the first thing I did was Google, what is spirituality? Ooh, give me a definition. And what was it, what was their definition? I'm curious. Uh, it was something along the lines of, uh, belief in a higher power that helps you determine meaning and purpose Okay. In your life. Um, and I was like, well, that makes sense, right? Mm-hmm. And I probably do have a bunch of practices that are aligned with that, but it, it's not something that I think of in terms of spirituality. Um, and I'm kind of reflexively anti-religious. Okay. Um, my father is Jewish. Mm-hmm. My mother is Catholic and she wanted to raise me and my sister Catholic. Um, and so I would go to like. What is it, C, c, d or mm-hmm. Sunday school. And we'd go to Catholic mass. So my dad would come. Mm-hmm. And he would just, he would sit and stand. He wouldn't kneel. Yeah. Right. And which was great for me to realize like there isn't just this, that this is a choice. Yeah. Right. Um, the problem was I was a fairly precocious and annoying child. Mm-hmm. And I can't imagine. Right. And the, the, uh, my mom, uh, was raised in a Catholicism in San Francisco, uh, by French Canadian nuns who had PhDs. Wow. And I was being introduced to Catholicism and organized religion by mean old ladies in Great Falls, Montana. Mm. They have have sticks. They have, yeah. They had, they did have sticks really. And yeah. Um, didn't use them that often, but that was the sort of mode and it was very strict and very, uh, literal, um. And I had a bad habit of pointing out where literal interpretations of their teachings conflicted. Where I was like, well, on page one it says, you know, uh, God created the world in one day, and then later it's seven days. So was he lying then, or are you lying now? I love that and, uh, was asked to leave for sure. Wow. Um, how'd your mom take that? Yeah. I mean, she got it right? Like she, she understood. She was disappointed. Right. Okay. Was she I was rather proud. I thought I was the only 10-year-old to be excommunicated from the, the, the church. But she got it right and we were playing a lot of sports and doing stuff on the weekends, so, uh, it, it, it wasn't a huge part of our lives. Okay. Okay. Was any of your dad's Judaism practiced at all? No. No. Um, it wasn't a big part of his life. Like even growing up, his family always had a, a Christmas tree. Mm-hmm. Um. And, uh, he told a funny story. I don't know if I'm talking outta school 'cause it's his story and not mine. Um, but a, a rabbi had come through Montana to do some fundraising and there aren't any temples or anything there. Um, and had gone to see one of the other lawyers, uh, a guy named Schuster. So he looked through the phone book and was like, this is clearly a Jewish person, Uhhuh. And, and Jerry is a family friend and sent him, he was like, oh, if you want to talk to the big Jewish lawyer in town, go see Max Davis. Wow. And, um, so he went and was sitting out in the lobby and my, my dad was working and the receptionist began to get very nervous that this, you know, very Hasidic looking rabbi and all the gar, but the curls was waiting out there. And, you know, Montana is, uh, is conservative, but it's more of a like, reform conservative, uh, in terms of political parties. Um. What is it called?. Libertarian. No, that's what I about to say. Okay. There we go. Yes, it's a very libertarian place, but people are like, you know, I had one Asian friend growing up and that was. Uh, and the only other people of color I knew, 'cause there's a big Air force base in my town. Mm-hmm. So people aren't used to Okay. People who look different being around. And so people in the office were getting nervous that this rabbi sitting there and mm-hmm. You know, the receptionist calls my dad and is like, you, you gotta meet with this guy. Like, get him into your office quickly. Mm-hmm. My dad's like, I what? Okay, fine. And he brings him in and, you know, they, they talk about my dad's history and, uh, eventually my dad susses out that the guy wants a donation. And my dad's like, yeah, I don't, I, I can't right now. I'm not even very Jewish. Like mm-hmm. I'm, I'm the wrong guy to talk to. And the guy's like, no, you're, you're Jewish. You were raised Jewish. That's, that's who you are. My dad was like, no, no. We, like, my family celebrated Christmas. And, uh, the, the rabbi's like, no, you're, you're, you're still Jewish. That's, that's your heritage. That's your culture. Even if you aren't, aren't practicing. And uh, my dad goes, I have never been bar mitzvahed like I am. I am not the guy you're looking for. And the rabbi goes, we can fix that right now. And I'm like, opens up his briefcase and he's got this scarf and he's got the things my dad's like, I don't speak Hebrew. Like, I can't, I can't do it. And he's like, don't worry, just repeat after me. My dad's sweating now because he's got clients waiting outside so they go through the whole thing, uhhuh and repeats. The Hebrew, does the, does the whole ceremony. And the guy goes, congratulations, you know, you've been bar mitzvah. You're a man in the faith. Now. It's like, great, thanks. Here's what I and starts to process what's happened. And then the first person he thinks to call is his mother. Right, right. Yeah, of course. Right. Yeah. So he, uh, he missed my bar mitzva mom. Um, so he gives her a call and he's like, mom, mom, you'll never guess what just happened. I just got Bar mitzvah. And his mom pauses and goes, are you drinking at work? That's funny. That's great. Um, so it wasn't a big part Okay. Of my growing up. Yeah. It was like, I found out later when I went to my 20th high school reunion that my peers thought of me as Jewish. Mm. Okay. But I never thought it was a leading part of my identity. Interesting. Oh, so was there any discussion of like God, or like what happens when people die, like in your family or that just wasn't really like, touched on? Not much. No. It didn't, you know, come up at dinner conversation. Um, when I got to college and still being a precocious and annoying young man, you know, I would, I would debate with my mom about, well, if there is a God, and that God is omnipotent and, um, omnipresent and what's the other one all knowing mm-hmm. Um, do I have free will? Like, why do bad things happen to innocent people? Mm-hmm. Right. And that was more just to like, be a shit than it was to just to tell those are real. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's, yeah. It came from real places, I'm sure. Well, yeah. Just interesting stuff to talk about. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, I feel like the only downside to that is I was raised with that framework of thinking. Mm-hmm. Um. But, so I get all the guilt, but none of the heaven. Okay. Okay. Sure. So wait, when you had that conversation with your mom, what was her, did she respond to your questions? Like, is she still very much in her faith at this point and when you're in college? Um, I don't know. I, I can't actually speak to, to where she was in terms of her faith. Mm-hmm. But, you know, she had, uh, counterarguments, like, just because somebody knows something is going to happen doesn't mean they made it happen. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. And that she had made her piece with some of those questions mm-hmm. That I, as you know, 20-year-old young man in college was wrestling with. Right, right, right. And probably, you know, will continue to with the rest of my life. Mm-hmm. Do you feel now, like there is a force that is different from yourself that is like guiding you in any way? No, not guiding me. Um. Because that feels like an obligation of personal responsibility to me. Mm-hmm. Um, I, I am agnostic. Okay. Probably is, is the best term. Okay. Right. Where I'm like, well, a dog is infinitely more sophisticated than a mold, and I'm infinitely more sophisticated than a dog. Depends on the dog, but yeah. Fair Mabel's right here. Right. No offense. Um, and that's only on my good days. Uh, why does the chain need to stop there? Right. Right. And if there are beings, uh, of, uh, that, that are far beyond the, the comprehension that a human brain can, can muster. Mm-hmm. Um, cool. Right. I just don't feel the need to, uh, ascribe mm-hmm. Uh, that sort of personal intervention. Right. Okay. I guess closer to like a deist would be right. Where the, the god is sort of the watchmaker who sets up the universe. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then it, it goes, I remember learning about, um, higher dimensions when I was, uh, studying physics and they were like, it's, it's really hard to wrap your head around, like if you were a two dimensional creature that lived on a page and you encountered an orange. Right. Right. Or on a, if you lived on a plane Right. You wouldn't be able to comprehend the, the spherical nature of the orange. Right. Right. You'd see a series of circles. Mm-hmm. Right. And that would, that'd be all you could understand. And if there are, if there is a being who is infinitely more complex and working on way more dimensions than, you know, I could ever wrap my head around, I, then I'm only gonna see slices of the orange. Mm-hmm. And. While that being may have the agency to be invested in every single one of our lives all the time, um, I don't find that to be a necessary ingredient to me living my life. Okay. And if I'm going to create meaning, um, I'd rather do it myself than have it imposed. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. So when there are things that like line up precisely, like, like coincidences, orage, destiny, you meet somebody that you feel like you've known them forever. Do you feel like those are like slices of the orange? You know? No. No. I, I feel like that for me, that is part of the human tendency to create narrative. Mm-hmm. Do you think it's random? Kind of. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And how, sorry. No, you go. First, well, I just had an experience of that, right? Oh. Like I was, uh, back in New York last week and I was watching, uh, my friend's new adaptation of the Seagull. Mm-hmm. And afterward we were all hanging out and talking and talking about the play and like the things we liked. And he's a big fancy TV actor and his big fancy TV manager came over and was chatting me up. Um, and we were, you know, talking about the play and talking like getting to know each other because I had actually, uh, met his dog during the pandemic, um, because my buddy would, they'd all walk their dogs together in the neighborhood. Um, and I was like, well, I know the dog, but I've never met you. So funny. And we were talking about, um, how I had grown up in Montana and he was like, oh, one of my, uh, clients is from Montana. And I was like, oh, who's that? And he was like, Jesse. And I was like, he was like, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Oh, wow. And I was like, oh, that's really cool. And so he had, he talked about how, um, he had been, uh, in Missoula and I talked about how my sister lives in Missoula, um, and didn't think much of it. Mm-hmm. Uh, just kinda a cool coincidence. Right. And then I left the reading and went to go get, uh, gifts for the people with whom I had been staying. Mm-hmm. I got some cinnamon rolls and I got the, um, office whiskey for, uh, the Shakespeare Forum. Mm-hmm. Nice. Um, and got on the train and I was riding the, the, the subway back uptown. Mm-hmm. And this guy walked by and sort of looked me up and down and I smiled and he smiled and we were standing next to each other and I went, wait, do, um, do you work with this manager? Mm. And he was like, oh, yeah, yeah. He's, he's my, he's my manager. And it turned out. I was standing next to Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Oh my God. Oh my gosh. What you guys can't see on the podcast, but I'm holding up my phone because literally Wow. Selfy. Um, okay. So like that to me is so, like, that to me is so not random, you know what I mean? Uh, to me, yeah, that seems like how, what are the odds? But I think that's what's what makes it so special, right? Is that what are the odds? And those odds actually came through. Right. Right, right. Mm-hmm. That's funny. That's kind of what I was gonna ask you, uh, was like, for people who wouldn't say that they really believe in Fay and like it's all random, is that, how does that feel? Like, do you like that? Do you wish you believed in fate? Like, you know, you know, it, I was just delighted by like yeah, the long shot odds of that happening, right? Like, what are the chances? Right? And to ascribe a higher meaning or purpose of that to, that would. It, it for me be to impose my desire onto those random sets of events that I'll put that in order. Hmm. Okay. Does it say to you, I should do another step now? Because like if I was in your position and that happened, I would definitely be emailing that manager. Right. I'd be like, okay, we had this conversation, we had a great, like rapport. Mm-hmm. You talked about justice. I would email them the picture of this and be like, what are the cha? To me it would be like, okay, there's a step. I'm being guided on a path, but you don't feel that. Are you gonna email the manager? Oh, I, I sent him the picture immediately and was like, haha. Right. Speak of the devil. Uhhuh, you know? Um, but I have, uh, a manager whom I love. Right. And so I'm not like chasing, a professional relationship, but what a cool, like yeah. Story for both of us in terms of a personal relationship. Mm-hmm. Okay. Interesting. Very interesting. Interesting. Okay. So we'll. You, you even said when you came on or were asked, you looked up spirituality 'cause you weren't sure. Yeah. You looked it up and you did mention that. You were like, oh, there might be some things I do. Or that, what would, what would that be like what to you is your version of spirituality then? That's a great question. Um, and I, I don't have a tidy answer for it. Okay. That's okay. Yeah. But the things that I feel, um, compelled to be in touch with that are greater than myself are things like community. Mm-hmm. Right. And other people, um, the environment. Right. Um, I had a philosophy professor in college who would talk about the great sea of being mm-hmm. That we are all part of. Right. That I. You know, uh, connected to you and, and like we're all, uh, in relationship, but we're also part of the fabric of space time. Mm. And you know, the weird thing is I'm a collection of atoms and the table's a collection of atoms. Mm. And so, on a very materialistic level, there's not much of a difference except I'm aware of the table. Right. So I'm part of the universe that is aware of the universe. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and it's helped me thinking that way, has helped me wrap my head around big things like death, right? Where, because I'm not a religious person and the, the idea of, you know, a heaven and a hell or an afterlife like that seems simplistic or childish, or even narcissistic to me. Mm-hmm. Um, or born out of the need for. Whatever I am to continue on some level. Mm-hmm. Um, but I remember reading a story as a kid and there were, uh, two waves hanging out in the ocean and they're going along doing their wave things like they're laughing and having a good time, and their friends and their buddies and like seeing the world. And all of a sudden, like they look ahead and there's the shoreline and one of them is like, oh my God, oh my God. It's, it's the shore. Like, we're gonna crash on those rocks. And the other one's like, yeah. He's like, aren't you scared? Like you won't exist anymore. You will be gone. And the other wave goes, yeah, but I'll still be part of the ocean. And so that idea of like a higher level of connection helps me find peace with the idea that the eye that I am now will cease to exist at a certain point. Yeah, but maybe I'll just go back to that ocean. So is that ocean, like the idea of the collective consciousness of like, we all exist on a separate plane, I suppose, Yeah. You just go back to the fundamental materials. Mm. The energy, the atoms, whatever. Whatever the substructure of the universe is that things Right. You know? Yeah. Or even scattered in different places. Right? Yeah. Um, so then do you feel like there a soul is a real thing? Um, I haven't asked that question. Do you have a soul? Do you have, do you have a soul? Soul? Have Vanessa? I haven't asked that. I mean, I had one. It's, I said to every guest, but it was a buyer's market a few years ago. Lemme tell you. Um, I don't know. Right. And I don't know that that is ans answerable question. I know that. There is a part of me that is not my body. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. And even like people, like things happen to their brain. Right. And they're still them. Right. Right. Um, yeah. Right. And I think the, the need for that to be reified into a soul or um, is, is what leads us to want there to be an afterlife. Mm-hmm. Because this special thing, this soul needs to transcend both the life and the material world and, and continue. Right. Um, whereas if whatever is animating me returns to the source, right, then I eventually dissolve. But I am part of the sea, and that is both heaven and hell, I suppose. Right. Because now I am aware or I am a part of the world that I helped shape and if I did good things and helped people well then I am connected to that. And the bad things that I've done, I feel those as well. Do you meditate? Interesting. No, no. I tried a few times, um, but just I didn't like, uh, I know that the point isn't to not let your mind wander, but mind jumps around a lot. Mm-hmm. That's okay. Right? That's what I'm saying. It's not, it's not okay. I just didn't find it pleasurable or I didn't notice like a, a big difference. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Um, afterwards, um, I was just wondering 'cause it sounds like, like being present and. And connecting with others is, it seems important to you. So I was just like, oh, I wonder if you've ever, like, it is tried to hone in on like the presence part. The presence part. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Uh, a a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I tried it, but it almost seemed the opposite to me. It seemed like I was pulling back into myself as opposed to being present with you right now. I don't need to meditate. Yeah. I can just listen. Right, right, right. And empathize. And you also have that, like with Shakespeare Forum, I feel like you almost seem to me like you're in like a trance sometimes. Kind of, you know what I mean? Like not in a bad, like not in a bad, like just very invested in what I mean I get Shakespeare Forum is a group of artists. They get together. You can go up and do like anything Shakespeare or non and like feedback is given and Max and Jake are two of the people that sort of guide the feedback. But it's very. You feel very focused. Like it feels like you are in a meditative state to me as an observer when I've been there. Yeah. I think that's accurate. Mm-hmm. Um, I feel that way in like any great acting class. Right. Yeah. Or a great concert. Right. There's a reason I took my watch off and turned my phone off when we started talking. Mm-hmm. Right? Because then I'm here Yeah. With you and there's not a part of my mind that's running through the other stuff. Right, right. Um, and that may be the upshot of meditation for, for some people. Yeah. I think I just get there a different route. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I find like exercise to be meditative too. Okay. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. Like yeah. Um, especially like any sort of steady state cardio or do you run, are you running? I used to, but now I'm old and my knees hurt. I hate running, running. You talk a lot. Running. Oh, are you, you recommending swimming? Yeah. Yeah. Um, I also, yeah, I, I tore some muscles in my, uh, rotator cuff a few years ago, swimming, 'cause I was swimming with a buddy and there were two, uh, wild and crazy guys that were the lifeguards. I think they were Armenian. And they're like, Hey, you were the only guys at the pool. You wanna, uh, have a race? And we were like, uh, okay. And like, so we had a race and like, if we're gonna race, I'm gonna win. Yeah. Yeah. So I like went all out and ended up, uh, tearing some muscles in my shoulders. Yeah. In a worse way. You lost. That's why it pays to lose sometimes. Small ways. I wouldn't know. Won your shoulder. I only win.. Um, but swimming is wonderful. I wish I could do more of it. Yes. Um, but there's something meditative to that. Yeah. And yoga, I, I would do, I think anything can be meditative there. I used to do like meditative walk. Mm-hmm. You literally walk and you're just like, okay, what do I hear? What do I smell? What do I see? And you're just focusing and you're opening your awareness. Yeah. Radically present, right? Yeah, exactly. What's happening now? What's happening now? Yeah. What's happening now? Mm-hmm. Morning pages can be Yeah. Meditative, right? Like what is, what is the thought? What is the moment? Yeah. Are you, do you like to write, do you like to like journal? Do you do any of that? I don't journal. I, I do the morning pages. Did you do the artist's way? I did. Oh, okay. Okay. I've gone through it a a few times and that's the, the aspect of it that has really stuck with me. And that's often, I just feel like there's just a lot of chatter. Right, right, right. Yeah. Right. And if I. Just write it out for a while. I find I'm a little calmer and more present and able to focus, um, on whatever more complex task I'm about to tackle. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I remember her describing it as like clearing off the cobwebs in your mind. Sure. I've always loved that. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I, so a lot of people find us, because of how dark it can be as an artist and how to pull yourself out of it. Mm-hmm. So like have you experienced a dark, a dark age of your artistry? Mm-hmm. And if so, how did you pull yourself out of it? Oh my God. Um, so many long, so many dark ages, long dark nights of the soul. Right. Um, it's hard not to, like, life is hard. Yeah. Yeah. It's complex and there are beautiful things out in the world, but there's a lot of bad stuff too. And if you aren't. In touch with that darkness, you're, I think you're not paying attention. Mm. Um, and so I'm, I'm often dancing with that, that darkness. Are you, do you have a specific moment where you were like, I am, like, acting is rough, and like, how do I get myself out of it? Do you have that, have you ever questioned the career? I question. I question the career every day. Okay. It's a weird career. Yeah. It doesn't make sense. It's non-linear. It's not a meritocracy. Yeah. Yeah. It, it asks a lot of the people who, uh, choose to, to walk that route. Um. And sometimes I don't even think it's, uh, wise, let alone sane. Um, or I guess the inverse of that. Uh, I remember, um, being in New York and, uh, walking through Central Park and feeling kind of depressed and had been down for a while. And what, what I would usually do is go for like a walk by myself and sort of lean into those feelings and cry and things would be better. And I remember sitting on a park bench in Central Park overwhelmed with, uh, sadness or loneliness and being like, oh, well this is the part of the walk where I cry. Mm. And then nothing happened. Like I, like. You like didn't have access to those, that, those emotions Hmm. Right. I knew that I was upset, but like, I, I didn't get the catharsis of crying. Hmm. Um, and I went, oh, something's changed. Something has shifted and did some therapy and, and learned a lot more about emotions and anxiety and depression and how they affect the mind and the body, and kind of got to the conclusion that like, oh, I had been feeling rough for a while. Mm-hmm. Things had been heavy and I just didn't want to feel so I could still feel that they were heavy, but I wasn't letting myself like truly Yeah. Sort of let the heaviness in and, 'cause I was so tired of feeling it. Hmm. Ignoring it in all things. Yeah. I think sort of pushing it away, like no one wants, like no one wants to feel heavy all the time. Mm-hmm. And it wears on you. Um, and so I think that was about it. It, it, it didn't feel like a, a, a naar in terms of like an emotional rock bottom. Mm-hmm. But just like, oh, I need to change. Mm-hmm. Something needs to change. This isn't how I want to experience my life. Mm-hmm. And so for me, that was, uh, a process of learning about that, that stuff. Um, learning about what was upsetting me, um, accepting it, bringing it into my life. And then also like building up the light. Mm-hmm. Right? Taking time to connect with my friends, building theater, teaching kids, like petting dogs, whatever it is. I'm, uh, I'm not kidding. Like go pet a dog and. See if your mood doesn't change. Now it's not like night and day. Right, right. But maybe it's the little things, the small ax that cumulatively add up to create change. Mm-hmm. Where do you stand with it now in your career and life? Like, does it get you down? Have you found some magical way of it not affecting you all the rejection in the nose? No, I, um, I suppose I just accept it is the price of admission. Mm-hmm. That I could do other things and there would be costs and benefits to them. Okay. Right. I might end up with more stability or, uh, more social recognition. Um, things that are very valuable to me, but. I don't know that I'd get to sit in a room on a Tuesday night and be like, how do we help you express yourself? Mm-hmm. Right. Let's build a story together. Have, oh, I was gonna ask this earlier. Do you do mostly theater or is it you love it all or? Um, I love it all. I find I do less theater now. I was a, i, I was a theater animal for a long time. Yeah. A theater and all of it. Um, and as a baby actor, I was in the Bay Area, which was a great place to come up. Yeah. Because it wasn't super saturated with actors and there were a lot of theater companies. So I got to work a lot and I got to study with great teachers. Um, shout out to Lynn Sofer. Um, Chris Harold. And, um, but I always wanted to get to New York. And so when I got there and there was so much theater, I went and saw everything. Mm-hmm. And, you know, was a part of everything. And a lot of that was good and some of it was not good. Um, and like when theater's good, I feel like it it fills you up with something. Yeah. Um, and when it's not, I feel like it, it takes away something. It eats a little of your soul. Yeah. Also like it's theater's hard because it takes so much work. I was just on a a, a zoom yesterday with a bunch of, uh, actors from all over the country, and one of them was complaining about all the unpaid labor that goes into making theater. Yeah, totally. All the work you do before rehearsal, all the work you do outside of rehearsal. Right. And that for me, I think I, I, I was in a series of shows at the end of my time in New York where I felt like I had given so much mm-hmm. And was left feeling not that I, I didn't get that back, but that, like, I had overpaid the return wasn't as equal. Yeah. Right. Or it wasn't filling me up in the way that I, I hoped it would. Yeah. Um, and uh, so I don't. I don't do as much theater anymore. Mm-hmm. Um, because of that or just did that contribute to the move out here? That did, and I had a year where I was up. I like, um, the New York theater scene is like a deep well, and it takes time to sort of work your way up. Mm-hmm. And after years I had climbed up. Right. As opposed to la which is like a giant shallow puddle. Yeah. Right. Where you can, you can go from nothing to booking a series regular the next day, but it's a, if youre over here, it's, we're all, blah. It's a lot of theory. Nobody on the other side of the puzzle puddle knows what you're doing. Yeah. Yeah. Whereas New York is this deep. Well, and I had finally climbed up to the, the point where I was getting auditions at the, at the big theaters, my dream jobs, right? Mm-hmm. Working with the people that I had moved to New York to work with. Wow. Big playwrights, big directors, big productions, like the big time. Mm-hmm. And it felt like such an accomplishment. And then over the course of one year, there were three different gigs where I had been in auditions, been in callbacks, you know, and you get more and more investors as it goes on. And this is gonna be the one, this is gonna be that great show that I can hang my hat on for the rest of my life. And casting would call, they'd call me directly and I'd, you know, be on cloud nine because casting is calling me and they're, they're gonna offer me the role. And they were like, no, that's not this call. This call is, we just wanted you to know that we really liked your audition, but the producers wanted somebody with a TV name because it was gonna get more butts in seats. Because we're at a level of theater now where. That commercial draw is essential. Yeah. UGH And it happened three times and I was like, wow. Okay. Well, I guess to break into this level of theater, what I actually need to do is some more film and tv so that, okay. So you came out here to kind of redirect so that you can basically get back to theater in New York. Uh, maybe it was just the, you know, the next step. It just, yeah, well, just the impulse to come out here and try something different and have the adventure. It, it wasn't something that I was interested in when I moved to New York. I, I just wanted to do theater. I wanted to be in those rooms working with those people. Um, uh, one of my, uh, acting teachers in, in the Bay Area used to say that the, the theater was so good in New York, uh, partially because that's where everybody goes. Right. And then they, you know, they go back out to the regional theater or work wherever, but that's sort of the gathering place. Mm-hmm. But the other reason was the weather's awful and nobody drives. And so rehearsal would end and everybody would walk outta the theater and there'd be like a pub next door or a bar or a restaurant. And so then everybody would be like, oh, it's, you know, it's awful lot. Let's go in there. And then they'd keep talking and they'd argue and fight and build relationships. Yeah. You know? Right. Yeah. And that would inform the work that happened in the room. That's a good point. Yeah. Um, Los Angeles is too sunny for that. No, I think the bigger thing is like everybody walks out and walks to their cars. Yes. Yeah. Right? Yeah. If I were driving around New York, I wouldn't have run into Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Right, right. Wow. Okay. So how do you, 'cause okay, I am in a place of, I'm. I, I guess it is pessimistic, but it's also not negative. Somehow it's like I have realized that it is a lottery system. This is my new theory for me anyway. 'cause I used to get, like, I pretty much film and TV has been it for me. I, I like theater, I love theater, but really that's kind of, my heart is more over there. But it would be like, you're close to this thing and then you don't get it. Or even you got really close to this thing and the casting person's like, it was between you and one other person and I'm gonna remember you and I'm gonna bring, bring you back in for something else. And then I have never heard from them again. Stuff like that where I was feeling like, oh, it's gonna happen because it's gotten so close to happening before and now I feel like that was actually hurting me to have that much belief in a system that is like rigged against us. Like now I'm like, okay, so we're all lotto balls in this thing and like every audition is a lottery ticket. And you might as well play the lottery 'cause like they're giving you a lottery tickets. Like you might as well put your best work forward, but like, not expect anything and not expect that one almost will inform anything, even though sometimes it does. But it seems like, I don't know, asking if that was the case for you after these three. Like big, almost if that affected your belief. Like were you in a place of, okay, it's almost happened, so it's gonna happen at some point. Kind of. Um, I mean I think part of just being in this industry long enough is you realize like it's not, it's not a meritocracy that being good isn't sufficient. It's necessary. Right. But it's not sufficient. Yeah. And that chance does play a role and relationship does play a role. And that it's a much more complicated system than you know, you go to med school. Right. And then you do your internship, and then you do your, you know, your residency. Like that follows a path. This doesn't, and if I try to impose that path on this chaotic system, I'm the one who's gonna be frustrated, and I'm the one who's going to feel that things are unfair, but I've imposed those values onto it. Mm. Um, so I think there's a happy medium. Like, I don't just throw my hands up and go, this is completely random. I have no control. I just try to do the best work I can and there are things that I can't control and accepting that, um, has brought me some peace. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's hard to accept. I think it's terrible. A hundred percent used to be like, I'd love to live in a moral world. Right. Yeah. Right. A, a universe that makes sense. Yeah. An industry that rewards all the things that we were taught to practice. But that's not the case. And so if I get upset, that's on me, but that also affords me agency and responsibility and my own stuff and the stuff that I can control. Mm-hmm. And a lot of them don't have to do with talent. Mm-hmm. There was something you said to me once that I feel like was, and we can cut this out, if this winds up being like, oh, I don't wanna talk that, but I felt like it was so relatable and it just like hit something in me. You were like, I. Want, my parents, I am butchering it, but something like, I want my parents to see that I'm successful in this, before they die. Yeah. I was like, that is such a heavy part of being an artist. Yeah. Do you still feel that way? Oh, sure. Right. Um, and I don't know whether that like the, you know, if I were to try to minimize that story, I'd say, well, every child wants to please their parents. And the, my inner child, the parts of me right, still crave for that recognition. But I think on a deeper level, they are people that I love and I respect and I trust, and they had real reservations about me going into the arts. Right? There were other things I could have done it would've been easy to become a lawyer and I think that would've brought them some relief because we worry about kids, we want what's good for them, even if it's not what's best for them. Mm-hmm. And so for me to go off on this weird artistic journey, I think gave them pause. And so part of me really wants to reassure them to say, look, it all turned out okay. Mm-hmm. I gambled and I lost a lot, but eventually I won. So it was okay. It was the right choice. I've done something meaningful and valuable with my time that they can recognize because they aren't in, in the room on a Tuesday night. Mm-hmm. Right. Or. They can't come see the plays, all the plays that I do or Yeah. You know, the classes that I teach. Uh, but I derive a lot of meaning from those moments, and I would love to have something to show them. Mm-hmm. That is legible in their world. Mm-hmm. Not just mine. And I got a big ego and I wanna be a big fucking movie star, so. Oh yeah. Do you have that with your parents at all? Oh, absolutely. Really? Oh yeah. I think I, yeah, I don't know if it's just relatable, like, we all wanna please our parents, but like, whenever I think about like I'm getting emotional thinking about winning something like an award or like being a big movie star or whatever, like making it in, in, you know, capital M Making it in capital. Yeah. Um, I like think about thanking my mom and that is like, you know, that is what. That's what hits the most, I think, or not just my mom, my whole family, you know. Interesting. What would you thank them for? Just for, um, oh wow. You're making me do it now you have a mic. Yeah. No, I think I just would thank them for raising me and loving me and encouraging me. Yeah. Well, and like you don't need the award to do that. No. And I was actually gonna say the same to you, that you've also accomplished, like you said, all these shows and all these things. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, at the end of the day, I hope I'll be proud of my story. I am. Now, there's still much I'd like to accomplish, um, miles to go before I sleep, but We are theater actor, industry people. Mm. And so those terms have meaning to us in a way that people who aren't in our world may not understand what terms a great, you know, a great what, being in a great production of a play means Mm. Right. Or that, that night when you just got it right and you're, you're riding the wave and you're connecting with people or, you know, rocking an audition. Yeah. Like behind the, not behind the scenes, but more. Yeah. But I don't know, other people understand that intellectually. Mm-hmm. But I don't know that they have the same experience of a deeper meaning. Right. That I do. So maybe that's my spiritual practice. Right. That, that is bigger than me. Yeah. That is the thing from which I derive meaning and create purpose. Your art. Yeah. Right. Like making things with other people. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Being present with them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you know what changed it really for me? After I, like, I, I did Grey's and then it was like years before I was on TV again. And I remember calling my dad to be like, I'm gonna be on Dexter original sin. Thinking like, okay. Like, he and his reaction was the same as anytime I've been, like, I'm filming a short film or like, I'm an indie film, or like, this film's at the festival. He had the same reaction to me being on TV again. I was like, oh, he doesn't care. Like, and like, really? I like, you know what I mean? He was like, oh, great. Sure. Like, lemme know. Okay, cool. Like, it was did, he doesn't have, you know what I'm saying? Like, in my head I was like, oh, it's because like I was on TV and then like, and then I wasn't for a long time and like when, when I'm on TV and then like they'll be proud of me again for being on tv. But it was so not that it really, they don't have any gauge of No. Of it. Well, I just think those have different valence for them. Yeah. Right. Like getting. A big TV role means a lot to an actor in their career, especially as they're breaking into stuff. But for your dad, he was just happy you were working on something. Yeah. And so it didn't matter whether it was this thing or that thing. Right. He was invested in you and he knew you were happy. Yeah. So that's what, you know, that's why his response seemed the same, even though to you, like, these are very different gigs. Right, right, right. So the response should be different. Yeah. But like the, the gigs don't have the same meaning to him as they do to you. Yeah. But he does care. I would venture. Yeah. Yeah. It definitely helped to be like, okay, I can like release that. I haven't, I mean, since that moment I feel like I haven't worried about that part of it since really, you know. Right. I think ultimately we don't want it to be a worry. And it's, you know, the danger is to be seduced by, the money or the prestige Yeah. Or the fame. Mm-hmm. Right. And it is telling that the people who get those things almost always decry their insubstantiality. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So we're all just line balls popping around. Well, okay. So usually we take. A spiritual practice and try it on for two weeks. That's, yes. That's the second part of this. So, so do tacos count? Sure. We haven't had any, I mean, great. I was gonna, so, so the one thing that stuck out was the, like, we've kind of done this, but the small things. Yeah. Mm. Finding the light in the small things and really honing in on that. Mm-hmm. I felt like in a way could be that. And creating, I think that. And creating, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have any recommendations for us? Yeah. So you're, I'm gonna identify a practice and you're gonna try it for two weeks. Two weeks. And then we like report back of like, how it went for us. Yeah. So like, one person was like, night journaling. So we did that for two weeks. I mean, sometimes we fail it. Yeah. We're, we're honest, but we try, so we try, we, we attempted, we put it on two, we're on it. Yes. We, and then we say like, okay, what did that, would we stick around? What do we learn from that? Like, what, you know, that kind of, that's kind of the, the other part. Yeah, try the, um, surprise yourself with, uh, an unexpected act of kindness or grace with somebody. Okay. Right. Give max tacos. I love that. Is when I'm, I'm just angling for more tacos. Ah. Um, great. Well, anything you'd like to plug or promote? We talked a lot about Shakespeare form, uh, and that's how I know you. Mm-hmm. That's just an open room on Tuesday nights Great. Where we, uh, congregate and work on some stuff. Um, the idea is there are so many acting classes and so many different things, uh, productions that, that people could do, but they often have their own agendas. Mm-hmm. And one of the great things about that room is what if we gathered in radical support of each other? Right. What do you want to do? How can I help you? Not serving my vision of what Hamlet should be, but how do, like all the tools that I've gathered over my lifetime or experiences, how might they help you? Yeah. Right. And what is it to share authentically about, uh, aspiration or challenge in community. Nice. Great. Yeah. Gotta come with me one time. I know. I gotta go. I know I gotta go. I know we gotta go. I know. I gotta, I'll It's, uh, I'll, I promise. Tuesday nights, um, both in New York and la. Mm-hmm. Um, and we'll put your little, we'll put your website on the, in the show notes. Oh yes. Great. Yeah. And it's just an open room. Like come in, drop in, check it out. There's no pressure to perform. Mm-hmm. If you like it, come back the next week or come back in two months, um, bring a friend. Cool. Yeah. Nice. Ah, well thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you for being on. It's great to chat with you guys. Yeah. I learned some stuff. You did good. Yeah. Although I feel like I talked about myself a lot, which is well, you're a guest on a podcast. That's kind the point. That is that That is what we do, right? Yeah, sort. You did it right. Yeah, you did it right. Cool. I won podcasting. You won podcasting. Well, it's spies. Until next time, for the love of it. Bye bye. I didn't forget it that time. Alright. Alright.