Why Christians Struggle to Talk About Mental Health

“Just pray about it.”

For many Christians struggling with mental health, that’s the response they’ve heard for years. But what happens when prayer alone doesn’t seem to fix the anxiety, depression, trauma, or burnout?

In this episode, Dr. Jo and Dr. Mo have continue an honest conversation about faith and mental health in the Christian community. From discussing the stigma around therapy to breaking down the tension between spiritual care and psychological care, this episode tackles the conversations many churches still avoid.

The conversation also explores the importance of creating safe spaces for believers in therapy, why pastors need grace too, and how clinicians and clergy can work together instead of against each other. Whether you’ve struggled personally or want to better understand mental health through a Christian lens, this episode brings wisdom, honesty, and practical insight.

Connect with us: https://linktr.ee/skillsandpillspodcast

Transcript

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The majority of Americans right now are expressing that they are anxious, that they are depressed, and this does not decrease based on being connected to a faith-based community. I have seen people with chronic complex PTSD entered into a small group environment, literally watched, sat there and watched that person be re traumatized. And welcome back. May is mental health awareness month. Um, it's one of our favorite topics to talk about. We could talk about this all day, and honestly, we could live in the series. But in the month of May, what we've been covering are different myths for Christian mental health. So these are things that maybe we've all been taught or believe widely in the Christian faith that may not necessarily be the most comforting to our Christian community or may actually increase the stigma related to mental health within our community. So we want to debunk some things. We're gonna be your Christian mental health um myth busters this month. Um, and so last episode we spent a lot of time talking about um prayer. Prayer um as a weapon and um therapy as a strategy. So we talked a lot about how these things are not in competition with each other, but they actually collaborate. We also got to talk about how we wanna be collaborating as mental health professionals with pastors and faith-based communities. We should be collaborating and not at odds because it's a group effort to make the bride of Christ healthy and whole. And so we're gonna have more dialogue about this. We want you to join us. Join us in the chat and join us in the comments. Let us know what you think, what your experiences have been, um, and also just keep it light and airy, but have some conversations, maybe about what you were taught, or maybe about what resonates with you in this episode. But we're excited to get into it today. Let's do it. First of all, let's state the obvious. How about the couch? I know. This is a new thing. Listen, we're trying some things. That's nice. We're trying some things. It's more comfy. That's for the people that work. We're at a stage at the Skills and Pills. So, in full disclosure, it hasn't even been a year. So we're like a newbies. We're new, we're fresh. Babies. We're we're fresh. We're we're we're podcast babies. Um, and if you've been here since the beginning, thank you. If you're just showing up, thank you. Um, either way, we're super excited to be here. Um, this is a passion prop project for us. Right. It's something we got into, and that's why I think this series is so exciting for us. We got caught up last episode talking about it. If you haven't checked out last episode, check it out. It was a really good conversation. And we've got caught up talking about it because it's something we're really passionate about. We really believe this. We really believe that both faith and mental health can coexist, not even coexist, but collaborate, and both can be true, both can be valid, and it's not one or the other, oftentimes, that it can be both and. Um, and so we started off a conversation. I'm gonna reread our prompt that we started this off on, but we wanted to talk about the myths of mental health and specifically Christian mental health, and the first myth that we were talking about both last episode and now in this part too, is that um if we pray enough that we won't experience mental health concerns. So a lot of times this is for the folks that may have disclosed in faith-based spaces or other spaces, maybe to their family or friends or loved ones or the small groups. I have anxiety, I have trauma, I have depression, I have, you know, uh bipolar disorder, I have these things, um, or I have substance use uh or misuse of medications and were told that they needed to pray rather than engage other services. Um, and so we got to chat a little bit. It was Dr. Anita Phillips that had this great prompt at the top of Mental Health Awareness Month where she talked about how prayer is a weapon and therapy is a a strategy. And she talks about how she'll never tell you not to pray. And both, I know both, I can speak for both of us. When we sit in front of our clients, we always tell them to pray. Yeah. I ask my clients, are you Christian and do you pray? And can I join you in prayer? And also, am I praying as a mental health professional? I pray for my clients. I was about to say, Am I keeping them in a contemplated prayer space? Right. Well, the reason why I say contemplative prayer is because I am looking for God to give me strategies with competencies. That's right. So we got skills and strategies, but the Holy Spirit will come into a situation. I would often say there's three people in the room when I counsel: me, you, and the person of the Holy Spirit. Right. And like being open to um have prayer. But but then you have to, we talk about when we train counselors, we talk about implicit and explicit. Also, meaning that person has the right in their will to incorporate any uh spiritual coping. It is so beautiful like to sit in the space. I'm so grateful that I sit in a space, and we sit in a space in our work where the environment, the teaching, the leadership, everything just embraces both and infuses them together and sees them not as separate from each other. Right. So I I want to first say that that is like a total, uh, total blessing. So when I get in environments where there's a hard stop by clinicians on incorporating therapy, or there's a hard stop or the opposite, a hard stop by clinicians on incorporated incorporating faith, yeah, and then a hard time by um faith-based communities incorporating therapy. When I get in those spaces, it it it it just is a shock to the system. Yeah, we're spoiled, right? We're we're spoiled. Spoil. I think that is a good way. We're we're blessed in that sense that there are very real faith-based communities where um people will disclose, hey, I'm struggling with this, and they're met with shame and doubt. We had somebody recently that um had come on our our podcast and our comments and had mentioned that they were having so many struggles with their mental health that they had a lot of shame and guilt, and so that they weren't able to go to church in person. They had to go to online church because of the way that um they felt when they had to experience what they're going through. Um, and for me, that's something that is really challenging to me because um our faith-based communities are often built on a come as you are and also allowing God to do the work. But allowing God to do the work means that I have to invite the broken people into the room. Right? And so if I'm inviting the broken people, and that may look like mental health concerns for your mental health illness, um, to invite them in the room is to give them grace as they navigate it rather than kind of heaping unintentionally sometimes shame and guilt on them for experiencing something a lot of times that is very much out of their control. They've prayed. Oh, of course. That I've I've not had a Christian client sit in front of me that had not spent months years praying. And I can't, and not just that, I there's no divorcing, if you will, of the need to collaborate together and to be there together. Because when we looked at the research, especially in what we call BIPOC or minority communities, the because BIPOC in BIPOC and minority communities, the church is so central. Right. The church was a safe place when it came to systemic oppression, right, um, discrimination. They were it was the biggest safe where we gathered. Right. Where if if it's our community, let's just call a thing the thing. For us as brown and black people, that goes back to the transatlantic slave trade. So it was a safe space for gathering, right? So that has not changed in the tapestry of history. Right. Does that make sense? The only thing we do, and we're gonna get on this and get off of it, but but it is true. It is research based that um the only thing that has changed over time is whether it is the um oppression or the discrimination is overt or covert. So through our history, it'll get it'll either be just in your face, overt, or it'll fall back on the backdrop in the undertones and be kind of covert. So, because of that reason, research says that for BIPOC communities, the first line of defense is the church. Right. And then we also like when we think about um, you know, we were talking specifically about Christians or faith-based people, but then you add that additional layer of black and brown culture where it is so taboo to even mention that you have mental health. Um, especially in the black community, we have this idea of what happens in this house, stays in this house, nobody needs to know that. So you add the layer of maybe spiritual failing in your faith-based community, and then you add another layer of we don't do that. Right. We and then also there is a very valid, we can only speak from the black experience because that's who we are and what our research and our understanding is from. But I also know that there's other BIPOC representation that struggles in this area. Um, but another complicated thing for us is our mistrust of the medical system, which is valid considering things like that have happened as far as there's been a lot of experimentation on black and brown people by medical science, a lot of lack of listening to black people when they have needs. And so, because of that, there's also this mistrust of getting care in a formal way. So you have that, you also have culturally, we just don't do that. Disparities, and then you have the spiritual, then you have the access. So there's a lot of different factors that are going into why I may not initially think as a black uh Christian woman that mental health service is for me, right? And we're breaking those barriers down and we're talking more about the stigmas, and um I think there's more conversation than ever in faith-based communities, at least about the fact that this might be necessary. Right, right. Even this post that she's talking about that, right? I think that's why you're having posts. Because when you read the post, you just have somebody that is more prominent, right, pushing it forward. Does that make sense? But it has been a topic and a necessitated topic. Right. I know, we know, like in research for decades. And let's talk about this. Real quick, we'll deberto and come back. Right now, toe or foot, because you're good about saying that it's probably a whole body, but let's let's let's just let's just do it. I'm sorry, y'all. We gotta go there. But right now, our current statistics in America say that we are in one of the largest mental health crises as a comp as a country that we've been in since probably the Great Depression. So the majority of Americans right now are expressing that they are anxious, that they are depressed, and this does not decrease based on being connected to a faith-based community. So now the need for us in our faith-based spaces to address the very real struggles that our communities at large are experiencing. More people are anxious, more people are depressed, so many people are struggling with trauma. We can't even turn on our news, we can't I can't even go on social. I went on social media and watched somebody be unalived, and I watched our country move on from that in five seconds, no matter what your political leaning is. To the next click thing. To the next click thing. And the fact that we can all physically watch something like that. And we are so sad and so depressed and so anxious and so worried, and so all of these things were so desensitized to violence and things like that. Um, when you think about the state of where we are, there has never been a better time as the church is the first line of offense for our church to answer. But I think in the interesting way, the church is always the answer. Prayer has always been the answer historically. Yeah, God has always been the answer and still is. The challenge is now they're having to answer to something that prior history they did not agree with. Um, there has been a longstanding history of us in the church. There's a discourse. We don't have agreement on whether this is a demon, whether this is a um, depending on your um congregation, whether this is biological, whether this is spiritual, a spiritual issue. And I like how she says that in here. She says, people ask me if mental health is a spiritual or a psychological issue. And I think a lot of times that's where the discourse rests is if I'm telling you you just have to pray it away, it's because I believe it to be a spiritual issue, spiritual warfare, if you will, right? Um, and then the psychological standpoint, let's be honest, we we're talking about pastors a lot. Let's talk about us for a second. Talk about us, let's call us to the carpet therapists. Spiritual coping is a very effective way of managing mental health. Yeah, prayer is effective. Going to church is effective, joining a small group is effective. And I have to really put that in in it, put this in there and just be ethical about it if that's what the client shoots for. Of course. Of course. But we're talking specifically right now, only about Christian patients right now. We have somebody listen, like you think. They stumbled upon us. They stumbled upon us and they're like, they're over there, you know. ACA coping. But see, but but from the perspective of a a a Christian mental health professional, ethically, we are supposed to be asking the clients not if they're Christian or not. We're supposed to be asking them if they have any spiritual or cultural concerns at all. There is a school of thong. Because they could they can have spiritual coping that's outside of Christianity, but on our podcast, we're a Christian mental health podcast. So we're talking together. Oh, so coming back. I think yes, coming back. Coming back. So to be fair, you're absolutely right on that. I just want to say that because everybody's not there's not gonna share our faith, right? But then we just doubled here and you don't share our faith. We are ethical Christian mental health providers. We are gonna let you choose. We'll let you choose. We know the ACA codes, we know the AACC code. There you go. We're not getting in trouble. But we have to dip our toe and talk about that. Yeah, but there are some but here believe here's the thing. What we're Christian, let's talk about it then. If we're gonna talk about it, let's talk about it. Okay. If we're Christian mental health professionals, is we have that same faith, and some of our clients seek us out just because of that. That's true. Does that make sense? So, to be fair, I have to call my other professionals out to the carpet, my other licensed professionals that don't share the same Christian faith, that it is also their ethical duty to honor the Christian faith when it walks in front of them too. And so we don't get to You are multiculturally when it comes to the multicultural social justice competencies, you are correct. So we focus so much on us not ostracizing other people. But think about a Christian client. When they reach out, I'm already battling a spiritual failing. I'm already battling the fact that I even have to go do this, right? And it is not societally accepted, culturally accepted. So I'm already probably like hiding in shame that I'm doing it. And so when I go out to go log into the database, go on my insurance panel, and I'm looking for a therapist, I'm either looking for a Christian or I'm I'm hoping that I'll find somebody who doesn't think that I'm crazy because I said I heard from God. That's true. Okay, because the Lord gave me a word of knowledge and I should be able to walk in that. This segues into uh a quick story. This is a little sidebar, but it's okay. It's okay. It has a little squirrel, it's a little squirrel. I remember we were learning to do assessments and doing psychological batteries as part of our work as counselors, and I remember part of learning there was doing them. Right. And so my my professor at our Christian institution or our yeah, at our Christian institution, biblicularly integrated, called me to the side and not knowing that they were just just trying to, you know, just trying to poke the bear, poke mine. He said, There's some clinical cues for you. Right. And I'm like, oh my goodness. Right, right. And he said, well, right here, it says, if you hear voices, it's a high cue for you. I'm like, I never told anybody. I'm not even hearing any old voices, I'm hearing the voice of God. And so I said, a clinical cue. He said, Yes, right here, it asks you if you hear voice. I said, Well, when I thought about it, you know, I thought about when I'm in prayer and when I'm listening for the voice of the Lord. And in that moment, he opened up my insight. He said, Exactly, delve into conversations with your crying. Because sometimes when Christian, uh people of Christian faith go to therapists and go to psychologists and go, that piece of their faith is tucked under uh some level of delusion or whatever like that. So that just opened my eyes. And that's scary. It's so scary. That is so scary to me to be like, I need help. I'm coming to you. And this is something that gets me through. Like prayer keeps me going. Talking to the Lord. And talking to the Lord keeps me going. And he does talk back to me. Right. And so the idea that when he talks back to me, you're gonna be like, no, she needs to talk to me. Delusional institutionalized. Now, there is a very I get it. You see what I'm saying? But then at the same time, there's this fine line as a mental health professional, putting that cat background. Right. As a mental health professional, there have been people, because I was raised in Pentecost. Right. Okay, there have been some people that sat in front of me. I said, baby, that's not Pentecost. That's that's that's paranoid schizophrenia. Right. So I think there is it's about learning, but I think it's having that comfort to be like, I want to know that if I need to get this care, I can get it. That there's safe care to somebody to come get it from that honors, that honors um my faith. And and real quick, I'll say this and then we'll scoop on to the next thing. But working, I work with co-occurring conditions and substance use a lot. And one thing that I find interesting is substance use, um, our school rule of thumb is that support is half of it, that it is the majority, more effective than medications, more effective than anything else is support. So is what research says. And so a lot of times you'll see support groups, AA NA, celebrate recovery, which is a Christian-based support group. Um, and so we'll refer people to those. There's a lot of people that go to them and don't like them. And I'll they'll sit in front of me, my Christian clients, and they'll say, I didn't like that, but I like my small group at church. And you know what? Instead of and instead of looking at them and being like, well, research says that if you don't go to AA, you're gonna be unsuccessful, I say, okay. Research doesn't say it's AA, research says support. Okay. And what a support network looks like. So if your support network is your small group at church and you have safe people in there where you can disclose where you are in your sobriety, they can hold you accountable for that. That is very valid too. Uh I would say that, but if we want to, that's why that uh um collaboration in the research that we do is so important between clinicians and clergy, because you can have both. You can have that that faith-based intervention, but you can also have a clinician in there to be able to say, okay, because everybody is not, and I have been in seen this time after time after time. Everybody is not conducive for group work. It's true. Sometimes they have individuals, and so we have a piece of group work where we actually assess the movement in the group to identify when people are having struggles and things that is so individualized, right? That are so deep uh rooted that they will actually throw off the movement of the group. So that's when you are able to make that assessment and say, well, this is really, you know, heavier for you than this service delivery. Does that make sense? Yeah. And so I think the collaborations between clergy clergy and clinician gives that shared insight, and I want to say shared responsibility. Yeah. I like that. I do. Can you go into that a little bit more like the share what do you mean by shared responsibility? Uh shared responsibility because as we we get licensed in the Department of Health professions, it is our responsibility to protect the public. Right. Does that make sense? And so if you have uh you have to know the difference between a clinical group and a psychoeducation group. Right. So when you're doing psychoeducation and you have a clinical disturbance come into that mode, does that make sense? Then can you then protect that person's psyche? Right. Can you protect their experience? You can bring a person, uh, let's just just take uh one example, and just you guys can get in the chat, we can talk and talk and talk and talk about it, love and love and love around it, and come up with some individualized solutions. But I have seen people with a chronic complex PTSD entered into a small group environment, literally watched, sat there and watched that person be. Right. And it was like watching a train wick. And the reason why I say it was like rockaging a train wreck, because as a clinician, I know I was not given the sanction in the environment, right? Right. For whatever when I say sanction, I mean I'm not in charge of that group. Right. I'm not the group's leader. I'm not the person that organizes it. And it falls under a system that does not really acknowledge that pathology and the human condition is a thing to be addressed. And so I have to sit there and watch that person literally be thrown into rumination, be thrown into re-traumatization, uh feel less than worthy and worth because we prayed last small group and she's still dealing with it. Well, if she continues it, then you know, maybe she's gotta work that out. When that person, because that small group is the first line of defense, that person can be ushered. So really it becomes about this is what the research is around. It becomes about where I end and uh clergy work begins, and where clergy work, you know, where we meet each other in the work or how we collaborate. Maybe I shouldn't say end and begin because a lot of times you think the collaboration is about the collaboration. Like when do I need to identify to say when I'm sitting in front of a client? This is a spiritual issue, not a mental health. I was about to say I do. It goes both ways. And so saying, like, I am not meant to be uh and I think that's uh another thing, and I think Dr. Anita Phillips talked about that too recently on her Instagram where she was saying, my answer isn't always to go get a therapist either. Right. Because sometimes it is a spiritual issue that's going on or can be managed through that that in that space and doesn't necessarily need that that that higher level of care, if that makes sense. And so, and when you were saying that, I've come to the space where if I'm not in charge of those things and things like that, and when I see it, I've had to learn the ironic thing is we're talking about prayer. And I use prayer as a weapon in that moment as a as a mental health professional to say, Lord, I pray that this person finds the right care that they need. I pray that you help them to stumble upon the right therapist. I pray that you give our group leader the insight to know how to navigate this. Well, that's that's what that's all you can do. Right. When you sit there in the moment, uh it is odd that uh you'll have that discourse between faith-based and clinical. But as Christian counselors, when we are in those scenarios and realize we're either rendered unacceptable or not uh in practice or not acknowledged in practice, what do we resort to? What do you think we resort to? Prayer. Right. We're like, Father, you called us to this. Yeah, we know that your word says in a multitude of counsel plans succeed. You have designed, you know, this as a modality for some people, not all people, but for some people, and we're sitting in where we know you rest and have to watch um yeah, ourselves almost with our hands tied. And if you're smart with your tongue tied, right? Yeah, I think that's the challenge. I think um when I'm thinking about the people, I always like when people come in front of me and I hear that spiritual feeling in the room when they're like, I prayed, I did a lot of times, especially me from a space of medications. By the time you land in front of me, you done tried. If you're Christian, you tried, I'm talking about everything else. You took vitamin D, ashwagana, magnesium, y'all. Right. You took all the supplements you could, St. John's warts, you tried all the things, you've done the support groups, you've done um coaching, you've done maybe even counseling. So by the time you sit in front of me, you're like, listen, I have done everything. Yeah. I have done everything. Because there's such a if we talk about a stigma on therapy, there's even a larger stigma on the fact that I need medication support. Um, and and a lot of times, and I talk to people about that a lot, um, a lot of the common misconceptions about the biology, that aspect of it. Yeah. Um, you know, like people that, you know, for example, say, I just need to take vitamin D. And uh, we have some research studies that do show that yes, vitamin D is a factor to having more of a down mood and less energy, more fatigue, things like that. But also when you have clinical depression, it doesn't cause it, it worsens it. Um, same with sleep, and and also same with people telling you that you just need to pray more. That also causes a lot of emotional and mental distress, which does not cause you to have anxiety or depression. It worsens what you already have. It exacerbates. And not everybody knows what exacerbate means. Like that's why sometimes I want to use that term of like, hey, it just makes it worse. It makes it worse. It makes it worse. It exacerbates when you hear us say exacerbate here, we're saying it makes it worse. And so a lot of times people will self-medicate themselves with things like ashwagandha or um with St. Joseph, which are contraindicated with antidepressant medications as well. And so they will self-medicate themselves, but if it is chronic enough and severe enough, they really don't do much good, and then they're praying as well. And so by the end of it, they feel like they've thrown everything into the uh a bucket. It's like putting so much water into a bucket, but the bucket has a hole in it. And so they're putting out all this effort until eventually it's emotionally fatiguing to be like, I've done everything I can do, and you know, there's very much um support and help that's out there, right? Yeah, and then the responsibility for us, and so let me say this for clergy the responsibility us, we've got to figure out how to um make ourselves seen, make ourselves, find uh faith-based communities that are accepting of um clinical work and behavior health work and then be honoring. Right. Right? And the way I that's a two-way street. That's a two-way street. And so the way I one way I honored is with my clients, one of the first things, because we look for support networks normally by three if there is crisis or something of that nature. And I for all of my clients who say that they want to anchor their counseling work, their clinical work, uh, with spiritual coping, they want to collaborate the two. I always ask them what how they're involved in their faith base. Right. That is one of the sport networks that I look for. As a matter of fact, that's the first one. Right. Because if they pray, if they um use spiritual coping, then you would want. They're with me for an hour. Right. There's 168 hours in a week. I get one shot. Right. And then they have to go out in the world and spend another hundred, you know, uh, you know, sixty-eight hours or whatever like that navigating uh hundred and sixty-seven, navigating. So you want those supports there. So my the way I do it to honor the faith-based um community, to honor clergy, is to make my um leading uh defense uh in the support network something uh faith-based. Are you in a support group at your church? Right. Um have you met with your pastor about this? Right. Have you met with your what are the pipelines in your church that you are seen and known to need support? Right. And so that is the way I do it. And it and you know, I can't change a whole systemic. Right. I'm just one person. I'm one girl trying to play whack-mo, and I get popped in my head sometime on just being a clinician. Yeah. But what I can do is I can honor a clergy and I can honor and thereby honoring the Lord. Yes. That makes sense. And I was just gonna say that, like, for me as a mental health professional, I can't tell you how many sermons I've said in where I'm like, ooh, they're coming from me. They do not like that mental health. You can kind of hear an ampheny here, and you'd be like, ooh, it'll get the working up, it'll get the working up, you know. I'm like here, and you'd be like, you you just have to sit through this one. Like I'm an active member of this congregation, right? So it is hard to sit back on that row and be like, oh, this is gonna be we hate mental health sermon. Right, right. This is gonna be those topics. And now I've been in other spaces. Like I said, we've been very blessed to be in spaces where we've had been in churches and sermons where they were like advocating for mental health. So they're both are both are true. But I've sat in both seats. Um, and one seat obviously I enjoy because I believe in that mental health service is necessary and if it's a good thing. The one that's open to it. Is open to it. But of course, I have also sat in that seat of like, ooh, we about to um uh we're about to I'm about to have to kind of white. I call it white knuckling. I I have to just kind of get through this one because this is a um, but I think um I'm learning as I'm mature as a mental health professional and as I'm mature as a a believer, um somebody who's an active member of a faith-based community, I am learning that I have to grace um our clergy and our pastors for the fact that they are traversing something that they never probably could have imagined. Yeah. That like we were saying earlier, we're in a mental health crisis in our country. Um, and there was a time, even when I was younger, not even that long ago, when we could pretend like these things weren't happening in our community. So if you were struggling in those ways, we could kind of tuck you in the back corner of the church until eventually you probably just left because you didn't feel welcomed. Um, but we would kind of tuck you and hide you versus now it is so widespread and it is so so much. They're calling it an epidemic. So um kind of very similar to how we had COVID and things like that. We are have we are currently in a mental health epidemic, is what our nation is saying. And so um when you think about that, this is not something I can hide because it's almost everybody. It's it's a it's a large part of our communities that are expressing at minimum anxiety and depression. Um, and then beyond that, people that already had um diagnosed mental health conditions outside of the realm of just anxiety and depression. And so when I think about that, I do want as a mental health professional to grace them and and send that grace of like they're navigating something that even if they're like generationally pastors, their daddy didn't have to deal with that, their parents didn't have to deal with you know what I'm saying? Like this is new territory for us as the church. And to be able, I I like that you said the word grace because um in the comments, like we want you in the comments, we want clergy in the comments, we want clinicians in the comments. More than anything, we want grace and kindness in the comments because this is a conversation that we feel is necessary to have. And it's a conversation that we believe, we believe that opening up the conversation and leaning into the hard conversation is a springboard to have more clinicians make themselves known at their church, to have clergy more comfortable having uh the conversation, and so we're gonna continue to lean into it. And so on the next episode, we will be talking about spiritual bypassing. That is, and what does it look like and what impact it has on people who are are desiring to live, love, and work well and have their clinical work and their faith meet together harmoniously, not separately. So we're looking to have more conversations surrounding collaborations between clergy and clinicians. Clinicians, we advocate for you, we war for you. We for you, yes, clergy, we honor you. Also for you. Also, just making it clear. Just we are making it clear, we honor you, and we want to have conversations that uh allow us to live fully in our call, our clarion call. I cannot thank. And for every person that works at a biblically integrative higher education institution that trains clinical mental health counselors, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, and um, you know, big shout out if you're the pastor. Right, big shout out to you because you're doing the work. You're in the streets doing the work daily. Um the job is endless and sometimes thankless. Um, and so thank you for um entrusting your congregation to us. Yes, because you've said a lot of pastors send. Yes, let's spend just a hot second on that. We we talk about the discourse between clergy and clinician, but thank you to the pastors that receive us. Thank you to the pastors. I we have been seeing that you are like a beacon of light to us because we have been waiting as mental health professionals uh not to feel like we are dishonoring the work of the faith. And so if you are a pastor nationally, locally, internationally, and you embrace mental health and you bring it within your faith-based community, we are forever grateful for you for doing that. And if you do not, grace us. Grace us and allow us the opportunity to at least have a conversation uh with you about it. I love it. This is my favorite thing to talk about. So I'm having a talk. Wow. Um, but grace, grace, grace in the comments. Grace, grace, grace in the comments. And um, grace, grace, grace, and and just because you say grace, what are you saying? Grace, grace, grace. Be kind to each other. All the time with a spirit or something. I don't know. Grace, grace, grace. Give me grace for our humanity. And then also uh grace each other. So be kind in the comments. You can disagree and not tear somebody down. Exactly. We can disagree and not tear somebody down. So let's have honest dialogue and conversation about it. And you we might learn from y'all. Yeah. So we want to hear from you, even if you disagree. You can say I respectfully disagree and give us the points and make sure you I'm talking when people say they when they say I respectfully, but no disrespect. Okay, have a disrespect is. Follow your no disrespect with actual no disrespect. Do that in the comments for us. And then, of course, you know, you always gonna have the outliers, they just gotta do it. So we're gonna be resilient because we love resilience around here, and we're gonna handle it with grace too. And we'll see y'all next time. Thank you.