Skills and Pills Podcast
A podcast with Dr. Mo and Dr. Jo. A safe, empowering place for all things self-care, emotional health, and faith. We’re two passionate mental health professionals on a mission to break stigmas, provide credible psychoeducation, and encourage healing for the mind, body, and spirit—all through a Christian lens.
Skills and Pills Podcast
What Comes After Trauma? Learning to Live Again with Dr. Crystal Hulbert
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Part 1: https://youtu.be/8nTof08paj8
In Part 2 of their conversation with Dr. Crystal Rae Hulbert, Dr. Jo and Dr. Mo explore one of the biggest questions people face after trauma:
How do you actually move forward?
When the crisis has passed and the pain begins to settle, what does healing look like? How do you stop letting your trauma define you and begin responding to life from a place of freedom instead of survival?
Together, they unpack what it means to embrace the truth that your trauma is something you've experienced—not who you are.
The conversation also takes an honest look at church hurt, rebuilding trust, staying connected to healthy community, and learning to see God rightly even after seasons of deep pain.
If you've experienced trauma, been wounded by people or the church, or you're wondering what healing can truly look like, this episode offers practical wisdom, biblical encouragement, and hope for the journey ahead.
With over a decade of experience in the mental health field, Dr. Crystal Rae Hulbert has worked with clients from diverse backgrounds, addressing a wide range of issues including suicidal ideations, anxiety, depression, relational conflict, career changes, organizational pitfalls, leadership development and personal growth.
At Anchored Counseling and Wellness Center LLC, Crystal believes in creating a safe, non-judgmental space where clients can explore their feelings, failures and experiences. Whether you’re facing a personal failure, organizational leadership challenges or looking to improve your overall well-being, Crystal is committed to helping you on your journey to a healthier, more fulfilling life.
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The chains are no longer on you, but sometimes trauma victims will put chains back on themselves because you're so used to living a certain way. Even though I'm working through. Working through. Trauma is not the sum of me. That takes skill. That takes a clinician. That takes someone sitting down and again safely being able to walk you through a changed mindset.
SPEAKER_01When you said yes, give your uh self grace when go going back to the woman that you know was on the ground, now your accusers are gone. Yeah. What what I hear you saying, now what are you going to do to move forward in a different light or in a different way? And if I call it like asthmatic living. Sometimes when you live in trauma and crisis, you're crisis prone. You're from thing to thing to thing. And so really I'm a person that I believe the Lord gives us breath and he wants us to take deep breaths in his presence. And when things like that happen to us, our mind is just triggered. Because we don't trust this. Okay. So that hypervigilance begins to guard the guide our life. Yeah. So I call it um, so I spend my life, I go through like windmilling. Like literally just punching the air. Like it's I I'm not sure and I don't have a good um gauge on or tap into reality, if you will, on what will keep me grounded, but you don't begrudge a person. Yeah. Because here's the deal. Even if you went through life that way, at least you kept your breath.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01At least you kept it long enough. Just imagine the thickness of the air between her, what on the other side of her is what could have unalived her, yeah, or what could have ended her life. And Jesus, she's on the ground between that.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Just imagine.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And then how do you live free from that moment? Right. That is the the sweet spot that I love because now your accusers are are no longer there. But now how do you live? Technically, they're not there. Technically. But now how do you live as a free woman? How do you stand up and live in a new way when you're so used to psychologically? You're used to living a certain way. And I think going back to trauma, that is what we're working through as clinicians. We're working through trying to get you to see yourself in a new light, but also your brain has to, you, you, uh, uh CBT. Yeah. I have to help you to see this in a different way or to think about this in a different way so that you're not stuck in that moment. Because now the chains are no longer on you. But sometimes trauma victims will put chains back on themselves because you're so used to living a certain way. You may not be in prison anymore. I I I did a study. This was when I was in college in ODU. It was not many moons ago, but it was it was a little while ago. It was some time ago. Um, and one of the things that I was studying was uh those who have been incarcerated. And when they come out of prison, it is so hard to break that mentality because they've been accustomed to living a certain way. So how do you break someone past the the experience that they've been in and get them to see you're living in a new reality now, right? Like you don't have the chains on you anymore. You're not incarcerated, you don't have to walk around as if you're still bound and in prison, but that takes skill. That takes a clinician, that takes someone sitting down and again safely being able to walk you through a changed mindset.
SPEAKER_02So I love that. This is gonna seem like a segue, but I'm just curious because I have both of you here. And this is a this is a personal question. This is a monica question, it has nothing to do with clinical work. But something that I've been hearing online a lot is people talking about the deconstruction of their faith. Have you guys heard this when they're like I'm deconstructing? And a lot of times when I'm sitting and listening to people's stories about deconstruction, a lot of times I find that it has something to do with some type of religious trauma or that I can hear in the room where they're kind of like, this thing happened to me in this church space, and because of that, I've now either left church at large or I have decided that I'm going to have a relationship with Jesus outside of the church body. Um, and so that to me is something that I'm kind of been as a Christian kind of been like, ooh, I I do like that you have a relationship with the father, so of course I want you to have relationship with the father, but how do we healthily in a healthy way enter people back into church spaces after they've been either hurt or have experienced some type of trauma in the church?
SPEAKER_01I believe the first thing we can do is be clear in our mind and not adding anything to forsaken not the assembly of yourself together.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It didn't say forsaken not the assembly of yourself together if you've been hurt.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It didn't say, and here's the way you have to look at it there's a scripture, um, man, um that says um where there are oxen, the stable is unclean. But it takes a strong oxen to reap a harvest. And so I remember reading that scripture and in hermeneutically switching the oxen to people. And I said, I said, this is a part uh, this is a parable. I think I believe it's in uh Proverbs, but we'll uh we'll look it up in a minute. But when I heard it, I said, okay, where there's people is messy. But it takes people to to live life, to be together. And so as a clinician, I remember like, Lord, I'm people out. Like, I'll listen, I okay, everybody out of the stable. I want clean space. And then I remember having to just go through these thoughts in my head, and I'm like, okay, now everybody out of the stable. I won't be peopling for a while. I'm just gonna do this solitude, which I was masking. No, I was isolation, which I was masking as solitude, which really I just really had compassion fatigue and needed to take a respite as a clinician. And I remember sitting that moment and said, Okay, Lord, everybody out. Now my stable's clean. I just wanna be able to be in a clean stable for a little bit, and then I'll go back. And he just softly whispered, but you're in the stable. There is no way for us to have this ideal self where we won't have the like you uh Dr. Iffy off of all often says, the messy middle from my incident and healing is the messy middle. Yeah. When I come and see you as a trauma therapy, I am in the messy middle.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I may not know, you know, how to get there, but I am still, by and large, that one incident does not, and this is the perspective of people who have been traumatized or trauma uh victims, that that trauma is the sum of them. So now I'm rendered useless. And so, from my opinion, something always works. You know, this is not my opinion. Let me take that back. There's treasure and broken vessel. Yes, yes, in some versions of it, treasure and broke, and when I read that, I was like, oh, I'm still viable, even though I'm working through. Working through trauma is not the sum of me. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh. This is we could sit and talk for a while. Oh, so you you brought something into my brain when you said working through. And I know we're talking about like deconstruction and how there's so many people saying, like, oh, I'm I can um be outside of the four walls and still have a relationship with Christ or still have a relationship with God. But I think one thing, because I know pastors and leaders may also be listening to this, but um, knowing that people are actively working through traumatic events and being accepting to allowing clinicians to come in or reaching within your own soil of your church and pulling up, like, oh, we have we have a mental health uh uh community here. Entourage. Right. There's so many people and afraid to raise our hand to say, hey, I'm here. Um, but I think opening up those spaces within the church will help us to advance and to move forward too. I think that sometimes leaders and pastors may be a little afraid to to tap into that because there is a well, I do believe the Bible, but also mental health, and the two can marry together. They're not separate from each other. So um I think one of the things that will help those who have been hurt and traumatized is to know that in our organizations and in our churches, we do have mental health therapists, we do have resources, workshops, uh, pop-up things, like all the things, and invite that into our church so that people don't have to reach outside of it too when they need it in-house. You know, it's so difficult now. I know people say all the time, like, Oh, I'm trying to find therapists, I'm trying to find therapists, and we're like in the church thing. Yeah, on the usher board.
SPEAKER_01Yes, greeting.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and I'm like, you know, behind the greeters desk, uh just tucked in corners. Correct. And I think if we just pull back the curtains and allow it everyone to work in tandem together, we'll see the church advance even more in this area. And it breaks my heart too, though, when so many people are saying, like, oh, I can I can uh fellowship outside of the church, but you can't though. You well, you can, but not in a strong and healthy way, right?
SPEAKER_01Like we need people. So go ahead. Proverbs 14 and 4 is where it talks about where there is oxen the stable. So what I was saying about that by the deconstruction is yeah, I want to deconstruct and get out of this space because church hurt me, but make the church the manger and make us as servant leaders the oxen. Yeah. So where there is a church, right, there is going to be humanity. And you have to think about the church is a spiritual hospital. Right.
SPEAKER_02So how can I? But when you let the broken people in, there is potential for hurt and there's potential for trauma, there's potential for people. Yeah, just people in in general. Um, and I remember it was actually um it was my uncle, he's a pastor. He challenged me one day because I was sitting there and he was like, we were talking about people leaving the church. Um as a pastor, you know, how difficult that can be sometimes for them. Um, and we were talking about that, and he told me, he says, Well, you don't leave your job because you don't like people there where people there bother you or hurt you. You stay at your job. And I told him, I was like, Yeah, well, I gotta pay my bills. And he was like, Well, you need spiritual development, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, and he was the first person to really help me to start to reframe my mindset on how quick I am to leave a space just because people are peopling in it.
SPEAKER_00So I was just talking with my husband about this, and I hope I'm not segueing us, but you know, you said we're so quick to leave a space. One of the things that I'm actively trying to think through with fellow clinicians is why, and and hear my heart when I say this, our generation has become so weak-minded, and I mean like not able to endure tough things. Like it's hard for us to we lose our job and it's like everything is horrible. Like, I'm not able to move past this, I'm not able to get beyond it. When I was talking with my husband, I was like, it seems like prior generations were a little more resilient, like they had a little more, a little more fight in them, a little more tenacity. But I think now because even on social media, there's so many like people just throwing out mental health terms. And I'm like, it's a whole bunch of mumble jumble, and y'all are it's is this is incorrect information. And so I think it's causing um a generation to kind of stumble and fall and not know like the true terminology and true like the definition process. Yes, the change process in in general, and so they're like just reaching and grabbing anything that they can, and I'm actively working through how do we build a strong-minded generation that does not quit at the sign of like difficulty, right, but also like endures and knows how to move beyond like one small incident. Like I talked to so many people, and they're like, Well, this one thing happened, and my whole day is messed up. I'm like, you gave that one thing that much power over your entire day. So now you're not able to function, you know. Like that, let's talk through that. What happened here and here in your heart and in your mind that said, you know what, I'm done for the whole day. Because that one day turns into a week, turns into a month, and then you give up on so many different things in life. Like, let's build a stronger generation. And that's a call to clinicians. Like we have to, we have to speak up, we have to speak out, doing podcasts and literature, writing books, but we're in the shadows and in the, you know, because it's it's tough out here.
SPEAKER_01Did you ever see the game of whack-a-mole? I used to that game with a little thing with my stuff playing the whack-a-mo. I I call it whack-a-mole.
SPEAKER_02All I want you to know is that the Lord can use with mental health on socials, too. And it's great that we're getting more awareness out there, right? But I I will tell you that I do know for a fact that only like less than 8% of the population are narcissists. Your pastor is not a narcissist because he disagrees you, you know, or because he's maybe doing something or she is doing something a certain way. And so you will hear those terms or trauma bonding or you know, all of these terms kind of thrown around where it's like sometimes it's like sometimes it is that. Sometimes, you know, it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck and it is, right? We're more peopling. But then sometimes it's like there's just friction and humanity.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, and I was thinking about that when you said it, because I'm a millennial. And so um, I remember it was like a few years back, they had like released this, you know, study or something that said that most of us have had like up to eight jobs by the time we were like 30. So we we don't see we don't have any stick toativeness in general, not just in a church-based space, but we we're kind of like, especially, and I've and I've been that guy. I've been like, you don't got the benefits package, you don't got the Zen room, the the managers weird, you know, like such and such talked about me in the brick station. I'm done, you know. And so I do think that I I totally agree. There is this, it seems like a difference in the resilience.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And the resilience. And and I hear a lot of millennials. I was just saw a video the other day when I was scrolling, and obviously my FYP knows I'm millennial, so it puts it right there for me. Um but I was scrolling and they were like, we've been through so many major life events, you know, since 2000 and 2008, and all these like big historic events. Um, and so I think some some of it too is fatigue. Like I'm not even gonna that that that thought browser was I'm not even gonna engage. What's the point? Is what a lot of the comments were saying. Yeah. And I was sitting there, I was like, These are my peers, so I'm reading the comments, and I'm like, Well, you still gotta get up and do the thing, you know, yeah. As somebody who wants to engage it, like I can't just disengage all of life. Yeah, yeah. Right. And so what does that look like?
SPEAKER_01Um, it looks like looking at there's these quick phrases and quick fixes, and you have a lot of people, you know, that don't have the competencies that but have the desire to advocate. But where does that end begin? Yeah, does that make sense?
SPEAKER_02A lot of people are touched by mental health. Like a lot of people, I've seen a lot of people online that they've had their own mental health journeys and experiences. And so, of course, they want to spread awareness. They're like, I'm living, I'm healthy, I'm yeah, um, and I think in that same um talking and line of conversation, like we were talking about, the pastors, where does this marry and how does this merge together and understanding when it's time to invite clinicians into the conversation, even on socials to when the habit I listen for key phrases and I'm gonna date myself.
SPEAKER_01I know I have my ARP card, you know, and I come for that generation. Okay, because I want one. That's okay. That's okay. I come from that generation you're talking about. And so I listen to the phrases sometimes, right? We had phrases like if at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Yeah, does that make sense? Yeah, and let's let's make sure everything is on the has a biblical underpinning. We go from grace to grace, and glory to glory. Try, try, and to glory to glory. Try, try again. I can get with that. Girl, I'm just protecting my peace. When I hear that, yeah, yeah. First of all, you're protecting it and it's not your job. The word says, He will give us peace that surpasses all understanding. Right? I'm matching that energy. If it's not the fruits of the spirit, and I match it, then what am I kind of like doing? So I think one thing we can do is kind of really watch picking up the um the phrases and the culture of just pop culture. I'm not protecting my peace. Correct. What I am doing is I am casting my cares on the Lord because He is my invincible army. Yeah, He's my personal bravery, yeah, and He causes me to walk and make progress, spiritual progress on my high places of trouble, suffering, a result of responsibility. Yeah. I'm not trying to protect my peace. I'm trying to hide myself under the wing of his protection.
SPEAKER_02I feel a little convicted. In a bad way. Like I think it's okay to be like, because I I think I've definitely been one of those people, like I I've stopped saying I'm matching energies, but I definitely, because sometimes you get you end up on that Michelle Obama, you end up going too low and said to go high. So you end up too. Um turn your other cheek or whatever. And so I feel more whatever. So I've had to learn that, but the protecting the peace part, because a lot of times, even like when we were talking about like leaving church or like deconstruction, things like that, a lot of times you you do feel like you're like that situation is not peaceful or that person is not um peaceful. And so in some ways you're separating yourself in order to bring peace. And when you were saying that I'm not trying to bring that, I'm I'm trusting him. I think the then that situation is like a transfer of trust. Yeah. Like I'm transferring the trust from him to what I can do.
SPEAKER_01To what I can do. Yeah. And then and I'm guarding my heart. Yeah. So what I'm doing is I'm acknowledging that a person or a situation is disturbing my peace, right? And then I'm casting that care on him and I'm trusting him.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because he didn't tell me to protect it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01He he is my protector. Yeah. In my if you've disturbed my peace, you've gotten me in a vulnerable space. And you've got me in a space where I am not totally grounded and secure. And when I get there, when I'm vulnerable, nine times out of ten, we feel weak. Yeah. He said his strength is made perfect in our weakness. I I just don't get to protect it. Yeah. I just don't. And so I see that to me, okay. We're gonna have to come to the car. We have to get to the city.
SPEAKER_02I know we call this doing it for the people. I'm gonna do it for the people. I'm gonna put myself a little bit. Do it for the people. For me as somebody, like I've I've I'm a DV survivor, we're DV survivors, things like that. So have some trauma in our background. Just the concept of you being like, I'm not supposed to protect it, made my brain go, woo. Yeah. Like alarms went off. I said, What do you mean I'm just supposed to let it happen? Yeah. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01Because we often think boundaries are for other people. Boundaries are not for other people. Boundaries are for us. Correct. And so again, you still don't get to protect your peace.
SPEAKER_02Listen, I'm gonna have to sit with it. I love it though. No, I I it sounds so clinically sound to me. It's the most clinically sound thing I've heard. But at the same time, I could see how people would be challenged with it, like especially our generation.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right? Relinquishing trust. Because now I have to, instead of me being able to protect myself, I have to trust someone that I can't see to do to do that. I have to trust the Lord to protect me. And I'm like, and the the difficult part of that is. Is I hear people often say, well, why didn't God intervene? And why didn't he stop such and such from passing away? And as a clinician and as a minister, I'm honest. I don't know. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I don't know why he allowed your mom to pass away. Or I don't know why he allowed these things to happen. But what I do know is that his character does not change. He's still a loving father. He's still a gracious father. He's still a healer. You know, and I think this is you, we give a free CBT right here. This is think about it. This is free, you know, helping people to reframe and reshape, I think is one of the most powerful tools that we have as clinicians, as women of faith, is I want to help you get beyond that moment and to see God rightly. That's one of the missions that I'm on right now is yes, trauma happened to you, but the Lord did not do that to you, if that makes sense. You know, um, I want to help people to see him rightly, to see him. He's still a loving father, even though you went through what you went through. He's still a healer. He may not have healed a specific area of your life, but I have a great track record with the Lord. If I think back long enough, there are some things that he has healed me through, right? And I think that just being grounded enough and and you know being able to speak to his nature and his character, I think is important because when things happen to us, we lose sight of who God is. We lose we lose sight of the fact that he still loves you, even though you went through what you had to go through. Um I won't share all of what I've gone through or all of my testimony, but that takes work to work through. I'm still trying to trust you, but I'm I'm angry with you right now. Like I'm I'm angry that you allow X, Y, Z to happen, and then getting to the place of, you know what, I didn't see it before, but this actually worked for my good. I'm I have I'm stronger mentally now. I'm able to work through some things. I have a different outlook on life and on people, and I'm able to walk other people through maybe what's what I've gone through. And I, you know, so I think that um one of the the powerful tools that I think we have as women of faith together and as clinicians is is helping people to see God rightly even after going through trauma. Yeah. Like let's get back to the baseline of who do you know him to be? Yeah, you know, um, because he's still he's still that father, he's still that guy.
SPEAKER_01And a good, good God. And this just dropped into my spirit, and I wanted to say it, it just dropped into my mind. If you experience any type of trauma, this has been such a good segment. And we have had some conversation and just some thought processing, and this is my personal takeaway. Even if you've ever experienced any level of trauma, it happened to you, but you do not have to walk through the world with it manifesting through you. Yeah, there's a healing available through spiritual coping and through clinical engagement that cannot take you back to your old self, but that can make you a new creature.
SPEAKER_00That's so good.
SPEAKER_01That's so good.
SPEAKER_02That's what I need to tell the people. This is this has been good for me. Listen, I'm like, I'm new, and I'm good. Are you the one? When I aligned this up, I was like, this is gonna be good for me. This is selfishness. I know I love this conversation, and I hope that we can have many more in the future because I'm like, this is an alignment for sure. But I want you to take an opportunity, tell the people what you're working on, where they can find you, how they can connect with your work and and you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so um my name my website is www.anchert a-n-c-h or e-d, cwc.com. So I have anchored counseling and wellness center, and it is, I walk people through one-on-one coaching, consulting with organizations. Um, and it is my baby. I love it. I I I love my clients. I love the work that I do. Um, it's trauma work, it's is coaching through um difficult experiences. And I tell people all the time, my my specialty area is trauma. So if you're if you're coming to me, then most likely you've gone through something that was very traumatic. Um, but then also on the other end of that is healthy organization. So I'm very passionate about not only helping those who are outside of the church or, you know, uh walking through trauma, but getting healthy organizations. So let's talk to your teams. I want to sit down and let's build healthy teams and healthy systems so that we don't continue the cycle. When we heal someone outside of the church, they come into the church and they re-engage and it's like, oh, wait a minute. Now I'm I'm experiencing the church hurt. So my anchor helps to build healthy organizations and healthy leaders as well. Um, I'm working on a book right now that is called Um What Goes On in This House Stays in This House, but it can't live with me. And it's specifically about trauma, childhood trauma, transgenerational trauma, and how we pass on trauma if we don't deal with what happened to us in our early childhood. Um, so yeah, I recently wrote a book called Surviving the Silence of Heaven, Anchored. You can find all of those things on um Amazon. You can find them on my website, and I'm on social media, crystal.ray, um, everywhere, Instagram, Facebook. So yeah. Reach out to me.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely come back when your book comes out. Yeah. Let's launch it, let's talk about it. Yeah, you know, I can you know the saying is that when you're trauma, you're a trauma therapist, you look for trauma under every rock. And I've always resisted that. Yeah, I literally look for trauma under every pebble, it doesn't even have to be a rock. Yeah, because I do believe that we're just touched by humanity, yeah, and it leaves us changed. But the Lord is the great redeemer, yeah. Yeah, and so I'm looking for it because I want to unearth it, because I want to be a conduit of care and lead people to the one that is truly gonna heal them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.