The American Masculinity Podcast
The American Masculinity Podcast is hosted by Timothy Wienecke — licensed psychotherapist, Air Force veteran, and award-winning men's advocate.
Real conversations about masculinity, mental health, trauma, fatherhood, leadership, and growth. Each episode offers expert insight and practical tools to help men show up differently — as partners, fathers, friends, and leaders.
No yelling. No clichés. Just grounded, thoughtful masculinity for a changing world.
https://americanmasculinity.start.page
The American Masculinity Podcast
14 Beyond Good Intentions: How White Men Can Support Black Men
Tim sits down with Martin Henson—activist and founder of BMen Foundation—for an honest conversation about moving from good intentions to genuine support.
Full Show Notes: www.empowerchangece.com/americanmasculinity
Book List: https://bookshop.org/lists/amp-14-book-list
How to Walk Into Spaces that Don't Belong to You Without Shutting Down or Taking Over: https://americanmasculinity.gumroad.com/l/xvcnj
More of Martin's work: https://linktr.ee/martinhspeaks
What you’ll learn in this episode:
Chapters:
00:00 The Allyship Conversation That Makes White Men Uncomfortable
05:10 When Fear, Guilt, and Ego Get in the Way
13:05 Performative Allyship vs Real Connection
21:45 Stop Trying to Fix Black Men, Start Actually Listening
31:20 The Cost of Infantilizing Black Men
41:00 How to Be a Better Neighbor Without Centering Yourself
51:30 You’re Gonna Screw Up — Here’s How to Repair
57:00 Closing Reflections: Showing Up, Not Perfection
If you’re a man who wants to show up authentically for your community, this conversation will give you the tools to move from bystander to genuine ally.
👉 Subscribe for more honest conversations about masculinity, mental health, and building stronger connections as men.
After ten years in advocacy, I’ve learned you’re going to mess up—what matters is what you do next. This free worksheet isn’t about being perfect; it’s about making your mistakes less harmful, learning from them, and moving forward without getting stuck in shame. Grab it and start turning slip-ups into real growth.
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The American Masculinity Podcast™ is hosted by Timothy Wienecke — licensed psychotherapist, Air Force veteran, and men’s advocate.
Real conversations about masculinity, mental health, growth, and how men can show up better — as partners, leaders, and friends.
We focus on grounded tools, not yelling or clichés. If you have questions or want a tool for something you're wrestling with, leave a comment or send a message — your feedback shapes what we build next.
Note: While this doesn’t replace therapy, it might help you notice something worth exploring.
I'm afraid of dying. And then they'll say, look at all the things that he said instead of when I'm alive. If there was one thing that white guys could know that if every white dude you came across knew your life would be easier, what would it be? Talk to me like a regular person. If you ever think like you have this fantasy moment where, let's say you're at the court, Martin's there, you see some white guy do what he's talking about and you're like, I'm gonna check that dude. So he doesn't have to, I'm gonna step in. That could go backfire real quick. When I see folks correcting other folks, they want to be seen doing the thing, the interactions that people are having with you that reminds you, oh yeah, yeah, you're locking your car door because yeah, I'm a black dude. What does it actually mean to be a good neighbor to black men in this country? And how do you figure it out as a white guy if you don't have many black friends to ask, what does it mean to be able to show up without making it about you? If you're looking for the answers to those questions, you're in the right place. My name's Tim Winneke. This is American Masculinity, and our 14th episode. We're lucky enough to have on Martin Henson Martin's, a former clinician who now dedicates his life to activism and education around black men in this country and what they need to thrive. We're so lucky to have him. I'll be honest, as a white guy out here in Denver, I don't have many black friends to talk about these things with, and that tends to leave me open to when I show up in black spaces to messing it up. I get overly nervous. I don't have a guide or a host in those spaces, and so I make some pretty basic mistakes. Makes it hard to show up. It makes it hard to connect, so I'm so happy Martin was able to come and have this conversation with me. We talked about how ego and fear show up in these moments. We talked about how treating black men like projects or causes do real harm and how simple it is to ask someone, are you good? And how healing that can be. Some of the insights might sting, I know they did for me. Just remember, while you watch, this isn't about shredding your past experiences, it's about improving your future ones. So be kind to yourself as you listen. If you're looking for something faster, like you don't want a whole hour long conversation about this, you just want something to help you show up in spaces better, I went ahead and linked in a worksheet that we developed out for that. It's about two pages and about six minutes of video to help you get ready to go into spaces that don't necessarily belong to you. So if you want that, take a look in the show notes. I really hope you stay for the conversation though. It's a really powerful one and I can't tell you how thankful I'm for Martin to come on and have it. While you're watching this, think about spaces that you're nervous to show up to, but you wish you could. I'll see you at the end. Let's get started. Hey Mark, man, thanks so much for coming on. It's been a lot of fun talking to you before we get going. Absolutely, man. I'm glad to be. So I, I guess I kinda wanna start in naming what you and I are trying to do for folks. Like we were talking about a little bit before. I'm a white guy in Denver. I've got a multicultural background'cause I grew up outside of DC and I was in the Air Force, but in my day-to-day life, I do not have black guys around me. Mm-hmm. And that means that I don't have people that I can trust to help me with my ignorance without hurting. And I know there's a lot of other guys in that situation and so hopefully the, this conversation that I'm so happy you're here to be open to gives those guys a little bit of room to hear some things that I don't think would be safe to do with a stranger. Right. Just somebody cold on the road. Like these are not things that you should ask a stranger. So thanks for being willing to come on and do that. Man, it, it means the world. Yeah. Having honest conversations is what I'm all about. So that's what I'm trying to do. So I, I kind of wanna start with the idea of if there was one thing that white guys could know that if every white dude you came across knew your life would be easier, what would it be? I would say, talk to me like a regular person. Talk to me like a regular person. I'm gonna give you an example. Hmm. Because sometimes you find that white people or white men are finding their understanding of themselves through their interaction with me. Mm-hmm. There's a, a, a sort of interactional humanity system. Give you an example. So, I like basketball. I play basketball often, not so much now getting older, less time when I would bad knees, they, yeah, you wake up, they hurt, like, come on. But I go to the court, local YMCA rule hoop and we'll have run runs, team, different games that played and people pick teams. What I noticed was. Younger white boys, white men, they talk to each other, talk as peers and friends. They may bring with them of post they've seen before, but when they would talk to me, if they didn't know me, they would talk to me as if I was another child. So they're always having to assert their masculinity in interactions with, in ways that I'm not actually providing any sort of feedback or pushback from, in ways that they don't do with each other. So this sort of shared humanity is like missing casual every day. Interac like tone. Mm-hmm. The authoritative tone. Mm-hmm. I talked to a friend of mine, I can't even remember if it was him, but it was still sentiment among both is that white people talk to you like you work. Mm-hmm. And if that thing went away easier and I could really break down the inter, it'd be a lot easier if I could, I could really break down all of what that means, but I'll just keep it simple. If that thing that I feel when I'm on the basketball court, I'm having an interaction with. I don't know that well, if that thing went away, my life would be easier. That makes a lot of sense. We're raised to be afraid of you. Uh, like growing up out outside of DC and my, my father, he, he was, he hung draperies, right? And so he had all the government contracts. We'd go into the projects and stuff, and I was taught, and my father, like, he was not an overt racist, right? Like my mother's family were clan. Like I know what overt racism looks like. I know what that hate feels like. This is just the, like the candy coating of racism in America that we all get. You need to be afraid of them'cause they can hurt you. And what's interesting to me is like when I got into high school and I started to spend time with more black guys. Yeah, guys can hurt each other, right? Like you mouth off to the wrong guy, you're probably gonna get hurt. And that's a little bit of what, that's how you negotiate here, right? Right. But there's a difference between showing up, expecting someone to try to hurt you, to make that protective space for yourself than just feeling a guy out. Mm-hmm. Like, what's this game gonna look like? How physical do you get? Right. Can we have fun? I got bad knees too. Are you gonna, are you, how hard are you gonna go? Right. Yeah. They, and they, that thing happens. But sports too is a place where you are able to transcend the, the distance. Mm-hmm. So both of these things are happening in the same space and over time that that thing goes away. Mm-hmm. And I oftentimes can know or have a particular interaction with white people or white men and know, oh, you play sports. Mm-hmm. Or you in the military, because there's a level of comfort in how they deal with me. It doesn't mean that all the racist things that could exist go away. But I'm like, oh, we have a shared humanity that you've felt somewhere before. Yeah. Well I think it's, it's one of those things where once you have a relation point, it's so much easier to see the person. And I don't, I, I think that's just our nature, right? We other things, we categorize things, it's the way our mind is designed. But once you've got that touch point where we can relate on something, we're not as afraid. Right? Like, uh, when gay marriage was the thing, a lot of people were getting mad at all these crusty old white senators that would go to a nephew's wedding and all of a sudden turn his head on gay marriage. And they're like, why did it have to wait until he had it in his life? And I wish that it would go faster. I wish people would be more curious and find it in their life sooner. Mm-hmm. But that's how we do that, just as a species, I think you gotta find people and that resonance or you can't make any movement. Yeah. Yeah. And I like that resonance. I like to have real connections with people. It makes me feel. Less paranoid. Mm-hmm. Because when I wake up in the morning, I don't think, oh, I'm a black man today. Mm-hmm. It's the interactions that I have with the world around me that remind me what I look like. Mm-hmm. And how I'm Ed. And I love being black. It's, it's a great experience. There's so many good things, and yet Yeah, exactly. But that, that is what it's like you come into a space and you're, you're racialized by the interactions mm-hmm. That people are having with you, that reminds you, oh yeah, okay. Yeah. You're locking your car door because Yeah, I'm a black dude, you know, so on and so forth. It sounds like some of the experience is understanding, like from the other outside, right, that you are reminded constantly that the world is afraid of you, and that means they, they'll hurt you with, you know, you, you play ball at the same place. It sounds like you've had a few guys where that washed through sport. Yeah. Right. They, they sorted it and they stopped it. Has there ever been a time where you were able to talk to one of 'em about it? Not in the moment, because it's so cold in like micro interaction where they'll come and they'll have a particular tone with you. And how it puts me in a position where I have to respond a certain way. Mm-hmm. So now I have to be assertive in a way that lets them know I'm not a child and I'm making decisions here too. So if you walk onto the court, this is the thing that happens in ev every court of basketball, uh, any place you, you, you hoop, this dynamic is normal. So you walk into a court, somebody has next, you don't know who has next. So you gotta go and announce yourself, Hey, you got next, oh, I got, oh, I'm, I'm up next. And sometimes when as it comes across the race, you might have a white dude that comes in and just kind of just assumes. Like that walks in like we own it, you know? Yes. Walking, like, you know, but that kind of dissipates very quickly in that space because you have to meet that energy with another assertive stance. The problem is I don't like that. I have to do that. Yeah. I, I, I don't, I don't like that I, and I could really go into how the way that I present as a black man is often mediated by the ways that people will undermine my presence or my intelligence, or my understanding, and I have to be more assertive mm-hmm. More loud than I wanna be, more direct than I actually have to, to keep other things from happening. Mm-hmm. So now we're, we're caught in this, this, this dance of, uh, of, of racial realities that nobody wants to be in. So, I, I can't by any stretch relate to your blackness, but I can relate being to a big guy. That looks like who hurt you. Mm-hmm. Right. And there's an exhaustion that comes when you're moving in areas where that's seen first. Yeah. Because you're, like you said, I need to project enough force to maintain my presence here that like, Hey, I belong here. This is not just yours. There needs to be space for me. Mm-hmm. But it's on this knife's edge where if I'm having a bad day and I snap at somebody mm-hmm. They're afraid because now me being angry, me responding in this way is making them react like I'm punching them like that I could do the thing they're afraid of. Yeah. And I'm lucky, man, that doesn't happen. You know, I'm, I'm a white dude in Denver. Right. My life's pretty good. I can't imagine what that's like day in and day out. Ah, I it, you know, it is. You get used to it. Yeah. You get used to it and you, for you forget that you've gotten used to it. Mm. Unless you're in men's spaces. Or men's groups or, or the types of environment environments that allow you to explore, but you get so used to, you get numb. Mm-hmm. So with black men, oftentimes, I remember when I talked to a guy when I was in Boston, I saw a movie at someplace, like a Duke bar, and there was another high profile Black death from police brutality. I was like, Hey bro, you good. He's like, you know, I'm alright. I have to ask again. You always gotta ask more than once. Mm-hmm. You sure you, because now I have to show you that it's okay for you not to be good. Yeah. I mean it, you can really say, yeah, yeah. You really say, and then it's like, man, you know, that's, they gonna keep doing. And then you get into a little bit more because our first defense is to, to shell up and to be neutral. Mm-hmm. To be people who might, for example, with me, people might see me in a different space. I don't know them. You are not gonna know what I think. Mm-hmm. It's not safe. And, and, and it not safe. And I've had to unlearn that. And, and I know that unlearning the ways that you protect yourself is not unique to being a black man. So when I'm talking to folks and we get to a point of vulnerability, then we can talk about what are, what are those ways that we had to figure out how to exist in a way that allows us to have our full humanity, because that's what I'm trying to figure out when I go into the space. Mm-hmm. If they are so sensitive to what they imagine me to be, am I allowed to be a full person in the way that you are? Mm-hmm. Laugh as loud as I want to be angry or cry. And if I find that I can't do that, I have to negotiate what my, what masculine, what the cost of masculinity is gonna be for me. Mm-hmm. Here, because I know that masculinity has expectations. They still need it to be something. Mm-hmm. And it might be protective to them, even, even if there's some fear around how they think I might show up. So I have to, and all these things. And you, and you could probably relate to like these things you do. Calculations are happen really quickly and you, you move into the space. But now I'm a lot more intentional in figuring out how can they hold my humanity and what do I need to maintain to be feel good? Well, and that's that art, like, to me that sounds artful, right? That sounds like you found that that resonance within yourself and that art, and it's part of why you do what you do, I would think, is that you have some of the skill to dance that knife's edge better than a lot of us. I guess the, the kind of, the thing that's running through my mind is when I was in my twenties, I did a lot of white knighting. Mm-hmm. Right? The minute I like found out about some kind of injustice, I'm a big, loud white dude. I'm like, all right, I'm gonna speak to that. Next time I see it, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get in somebody's face. And that never goes well. If you're, like, for any of the listener, if you ever think like you have this fantasy moment where, let's say you're at the court, Martin's there, you see some white guy do what he talking about, and you're like, ah, I'm gonna check that dude. So he doesn't have to, I'm gonna step in. That could go backfire real quick, right? Yeah. Have you ever seen a white guy correct another white guy in that environment? Well, that made you feel, seen, made it feel like the space belongs a little bit more to you based on what the group did? No. Damn. I haven't, I've ne I've never seen it. I'm, and this is me not saying it hasn't happened. Mm-hmm. I've never seen it because oftentimes when I see folks correcting other folks, unfortunately, and I know they, they mean well, they want to be seen doing the thing. Mm-hmm. So in my mind, I code it different. Ah, okay. There's, they, they want to be perceived well, they wanna be perceived as, it's very performative. It's very performative. And I, but I give a lot. I'm, and I think I'm different. I'm not gonna say for most people, but I noticed I give a lot of credit to people who meet. Mm-hmm. So I'll, I'll, I'll say, okay, you're trying. We can, we can work, we can figure this part out because you're trying. Yeah. But that doesn't always land for everyone else. No. I wish I had an experience where a white dude corrected something in a, in a space where I was present and I was like, glad I didn't have to do it. But I haven't, man. I was hoping you had one.'cause I don't either. All my moments that I think of where my, you know, allyship triggers up a lot of people, but just being a good neighbor, right? Like correcting something within my community when someone's slipping up, the only time that it's felt truly impactful is when it's just us. So, like, if I'm around a bunch of other white guys and one of'em says something off color, I can correct him in that group. If we're close enough in a way that checks it, like, Hey, that we don't, we don't do that, man. What's, where's that coming from? Like, why you, what's happening right now that you think that's the way to be? Let's talk about it. I've never had a moment where I've been able to do that in front of who they were hurting, if that makes sense. Because you can't, I, I feel like as a, as, as a human being, you can't give someone safety. All you can do is create space for them to build their safety. Yeah. I've been waiting. I've been waiting. I've done it a lot. Mm-hmm. For other people, because I believe you give people humanity and you get it back in return that you're just to keep paying my rent for being on earth. Like I want everyone around me to feel good. Yeah. And be their fullest self to whatever degree they feel they need to be. But, uh, I haven't, I haven't quite gotten that and that there's times where I wanted it and I wish I didn't have to go up or this feeling as though I. It's only gonna be me speaking for them. Mm-hmm. So I can do that for other people. Hey, I've seen that that was hard for you. You good? You okay? Hey. Or I can stop somebody. Oh, we're not doing that. That's, you're doing too much. I can be that person and stay in a way that they can perceive having gotten it for me. Because part of it is that people assume this. I'm thinking of that the medical racism that happens when they think black people don't feel pain. Yeah. Emotionally, I feel that that dynamic exists for black men where it's assumed that I have no impact because I'm not Yeah. Not gonna show you. But I'm, I'm not assumed to feel a way either. Mm-hmm. So, like, I, yeah, I'm waiting for that moment. I, hopefully, hopefully I get it one day. You know? And, and hopefully somebody else. It takes some vulnerability and the only way to be vulnerable is opening yourself up to pain. And if it's a stranger, why would you be vulnerable with a stranger? You don't owe that stranger anything. Just, you know, basic. You know, neighborly kindness, but like, you don't owe them a part of yourself that's tender. Yeah. So be, being seen is really important for me. Even the work that I do with my nonprofit B Men Foundation where we do support things for black men being seen is I know that isolation is so destructive for men in general. Uh, and to black men, we have our particular impact from the, the racialized system that we exist under. So I'm always trying to make sure that folks know somebody's looking for them in the room, and if they show up in a way that's unique or special, that somebody saw that and they spoke to it. Like, and I wanna be that person as much as I can. Well, I guess maybe if we wanna see it in the world, right? We gotta know what we're looking for. So you say you look for it, you wish it would happen. Yeah. In your mind's eye, what does it look like? If it happens, a white man speak it up for me. Oh wow. A why that making room for you? Not like, I, I think the big thing is like when we speak up for other people, we are failing. Yeah. I, I can say one way, I haven't had it within like a sort of direct interpersonal dynamic, but I can say the way, way that I felt it most recently in a more distant way is because I, I write for a publication, a Beacon, beacon Voices in North Carolina, and I wrote about George Floyd and the way that he, his entire existence was extracted and disaster capitalism and billions of dollars were raised in his name that he never will see a send of. Mm-hmm. And being able to write that story and have it put out and like, and say, oh, you're supporting me telling this story. Mm-hmm. That made me feel. Uh, that, that feels like I got a piece of my, my soul back a little bit in that, was it a white publisher? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So some of it is if your guy in power Yeah. Look for people, like expand your search away from who looks like you. I like how Chris Rock put it in one of his old specials about equal opportunity stuff. He's like, look, if it's a better candidate, get the better candidate, but if it's equal, give it to the black guy. Mm-hmm. Like if all the things equal, give it to them. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And that's always resonated because there's mm-hmm. There's exceptional people everywhere you look. Mm-hmm. You can find exceptional folks if you're open to it in the world and you look for it. But I think we are trained as white guys to not look at you. And so if we remember to do that, I think that sounds like a start to like fight that kind of inherent way. Like rather than looking at you with the immediate reflex of being afraid, catching that, and, and I think this has been the hardest part of me for different kinds of allyship is. I don't stop being afraid. Like that gut check. Mm-hmm. I'm 45 years old. I I have not been punched in the face in 25 years. Right? Mm-hmm. It still happens every now and then where like, I wanna lock my door or I wanna cross the street. And now what works is I check in with it.'cause sometimes I need to cross the street. Sometimes. That's a scary dude. Mm-hmm. Like, he's just mm-hmm. He's twitchy, right? Mm-hmm. Or something else. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. Not, it's not always racism. Sometimes it's just, you know what, let me just, lemme get away from this person who's having some kind of day. But by asking the question, it gets so much better in the world, just in my own mind. So maybe that's something like, what does that sound like to you when I say that? Yeah. Uh, I think a asking the question is, is helpful. I just think speaking for me, so I don't have to take on the, the, the, like if something happens to black men in the world and a white guy. That's wrong. Mm-hmm. That's, that feels simple, but it just, it doesn't happen. So all of the advocacy, an example, so all the advocacy that I do for black men across how we're treated and how we have these different outcomes due to mm-hmm. Uh, racial oppression, cross education, cross incarceration. I taught health, mental health, all of these things. And it's hard for me to look out and see a white guy with a platform that says, Hey, what's happening to black men? Kind of fucked up. I don't see that anywhere I that, that it's just not a thing that exists. Not anywhere that's contraction, that's for sure. No, no. That's, I mean, so that's what I'm looking for and I think in the interpersonal, uh, sphere, if you're at a job or you know someone and something is happening, that was unjust knowing. That this person, oh, I have a situation. Got it. I got it. You asked me, you did. Was there a time where white guys spoke up? I got one. I actually do have a yes, a story. I, this, this, this, this. I'm try to keep my composure. So when I was canvasing, I was doing political canvasing last year for the progressive candidate out here who were going into different neighborhoods, mostly older. I think it was the retirement neighborhoods was one of them. A lot of times they, they were the rich. They, they were pretty, uh, wealthy. And the other parts of our canvassing didn't quite get into working class neighborhoods yet. We were in the early parts. So I was in this retirement community and I was driving around, we were knocking on doors and I had drove around a circle. This, I was walking my, my turf. The turf is what called the place that you're mm-hmm. Hitting. And a car pulled up. It was, it was a white woman and her. Partner, husband, friend. I don't know. She, she has a camera like, what are you doing out here? I say, I'm, I'm talking to people at their door. Well, and, and she was like, well, tell me what you're telling them. So I'm like, all right, I'm gonna just go into this field because you said you want talk. And she was like, she was like, no, I don't wanna hear that. It drives off via, has the, the phone, whatever. I keep walking, I keep doing, doing my third, I'm, I'm finishing up, it's a, it's a, a cul-de-sac and maybe two blocks. I'm in my car. I haven't gone anywhere. A police officer pulls up behind me. Mm-hmm. We've been texting back and forth with my team because we tell each other when something's happening so we can be ready for it. So they know, uh, as he's pulling up, I like threw the message up that, Hey, the cops are, are here. Police officer comes up, does the, the police thing. Oh, how do you, what are you doing? I, we know we can, we can do give political messaging, not soliciting. So I say enough of that I'm nervous. Yeah. My, I go into being robotic in those moments. Say everything I need to say I'm looking for, I don't know if I'm really even looking at him at all. Mm-hmm. And just doing just enough to get the, the situation over with. Afterwards he leaves, I'm like in the car, like taking deep breath, like shook because now it's just the danger with those types of things, if you canvassing is, is violence that could happen. Yeah. Not just from the people who see me as threatening at the door, but from the police that they may call. I'm absorbing all that. Mm-hmm. Trying to keep myself together. Well, and you're having to make someone armed unafraid of you. I'm having to do that and, and, and it's not the first time, but. That moment I've been trying to prepare myself because every time I would go out and do campus, and I'm like, this is go sideways, but I have to remind myself that, uh, just because something is possible doesn't mean it's probable. It's like, it's a whole list of things I'm telling myself, get through it, because I believe in what I'm doing anyway, my shift supervisor pulls up older white guy, 45. He has a bolt on his back of his truck. He's like that type of outdoorsy. Mm-hmm. Does all the things that live the life. He's got a gun, right? Uh, he doesn't have a gun, but he probably has a gun. I don't doubt it, to get outta my car. And he just like, looks at me and comes to give me a hug and I'm crying and into his arms and we're not having, I'm not having to say much. Like even now, I'm, I'm getting emotional thinking about it, but in that moment, he stall me and he, he knew what it was. He knew how heavy it was. And you know, of course I told him afterwards, I told him what the, the details of what happened. But that moment was the moment that I would want for, for other black men to be able to have with the men in their world where they just seen and, and responded to in the way that they needed. That to me also sounds like a beautiful moment of mentorship.'cause how old were you at the time? This was last year, so, so not, I wasn't young. Uh, and he, he's not, not not young either, but, so he's your peer just in leadership over you is the way that helped you. But he, he was older. Yeah. Uh, I wanna say he's in the mid forties and I'm 36 now. Yeah. So, yeah. So he was, he's an elder A little bit. Yeah. Yeah, a little bit. I, uh, like Bill Burr is a comic. I have a, I have a hit and miss relationship with Right. Because he does the old white man stuffed a little more than I like every now and then. But his late latest special was great where he did this joke about like, I'm in my fifties now. I feel like I should be trying to help people in their twenties and not trying to fuck 'em. And that's a good joke, but it really resonates where by the time you're in midlife, you can't look for other people to fix things. It's on you now, right? Like once you're in your mid thirties, mid forties, mid, we're the people doing the thing. And it sounds like in that leadership role, he'd been doing it long enough that he learned at some point what that was like for somebody else in your shoes. You know what, he wouldn't, he hadn't even been doing it that long. Now, he had done that in that particular role. He hadn't been doing long, but he had been doing. He was a cook and he had supervisor, he'd done that type of stuff. Mm-hmm. And he like, remember how we talked about that, that that barrier, that steered face? Mm-hmm. That when you can tell when white white folks had been in it somewhere. Like he was like that. Mm-hmm. And he knew enough to where I didn't have to stay and it was a powerful moment. He didn't come from men's spaces or counseling or like, it was just everyday empathy and connection that just happened from two people being very genuine and authentic with each other. Yeah. I think that's a, it's a really beautiful moment and the amount of trust that you had for him to be able to let that down in that moment with him, I think is really, really powerful. And I mean, he could have been open to it and he could have offered it, but you could have said no, you could have gone robotic and stayed safe. Right. Safe enough. Mm-hmm. But he had already earned some trust with you, it sounds like. He was already something you expected, right? Like he, he, it, it just, it, it happened in that moment and I don't think we really, we debriefed, but we didn't really talk about it with the larger group. It was like a moment between us that as men of like, that was very fairly intimate and responsive to where I was at. That just, it just gave me a lot of faith in, in humanity in a way that nobody could have prescribed that moment to me. Or, or made it just, it just happened because he was who he was and I was, I needed that in that moment. Yeah, I get that a lot in self-help space. Everybody wants to operationalize humanity and connection. Like, tell me what to do to be better with this. Right. Uh, hey girls, don't talk to me. Tell me what to do to get them to talk to me. Right? My wife's not behaving this way. What do I do to get her to behave this way? And the answer's always the same, which is show up and learn how to talk to 'em. Like that doesn't happen until you've got some humanity between you to build on. Like you've just gotta learn how to like see somebody, how to ease your way into their life and an appropriate level in an appropriate way. Mm-hmm. And if you're open, it happens. I was talking to, uh, I was telling you about him before we got on my, my Air Force leadership instructor. Uh, he's big on mentorship. I think anybody who works in the leadership space, I'm sure it comes up for you in your men's groups leadership. Right? It's what we need in the world. We need more guys stepping into that. And everybody wants to operationalize it. And it's just being around like that's all it is. If you are around, it will happen. And that's, for me, that's just hard. That, that, uh, you mentioned this earlier about being fearful of being courageous. I can't remember how you framed it for me. I have to be courageous every day. Mm-hmm. And I get those, I get those reps in, so now it doesn't feel as scary. Mm-hmm. But the fear doesn't stop. I still have to push through it. Yeah. And when I think about leadership, I get, sometimes it is like, I get a little tingly feeling in my stomach. It's like, oh, I gotta say something. Mm-hmm. Gotta be me. And I walk into that. Now I could not, I could easily just do nothing. But that for me is that, oh, you know, somebody needs to say something and then it's going to be me. That's gonna be that person. Well, what I've heard from other people, and it's, it's hard to relate to as like a cis white dude, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But it, it's happened every now and then a little bit for me, just because I operate in space that doesn't belong to me, right? Mm-hmm. But it's wonderful to know your own voice and to like put it into the world where it can help and correct. And it's gotta be exhausting. I'm sure there are times where you choose not to because you're too damn tired. At least I hope you take a rest every now and then. Man, you're doing a lot of work. Uh, I should take a rest, but you know what? And I'm, uh, I guess I named this. I never had a place where I've had to name this, but I'm a, what I'm afraid of is dying. And then they'll say, look at all the things that he said instead of when I'm alive, instead of like them listening to me. So I'm like, ah, I gotta keep talking. So I catch that wave, but somebody's like, okay, I get what he's saying. Let's move more into this.'cause the posthumous reframing of goodness that happens for people. Mm-hmm. Like, oh, this person was, was so good and so great. That that was one part of the, all the, the deaths through the police brutality that I, I think about is how after they died, they were good. Like not why. Yeah. There's a, well, I, I think that's, that's a very like, cultural thing across a lot of western culture where, you know, the don't speak ill of the dead. And I certainly saw it happen in the military where when a guy died doing a brave act mm-hmm. All his sins were forgiven. Mm-hmm. Right? Like all of a sudden no one had a bad thing to say about him, despite the fact that, that, like this one guy mm-hmm. He had a really wonderful moment. He showed up in the way that you're supposed to show up in that moment. And that's the, the beauty of service and I didn't like him. Right. Mm-hmm. But no one says that anymore, that the pressure of the martyr, I guess is gotta be awful. Yeah. Like, and I think part of it too, and I guess how I can frame it as it relates to black men mm-hmm. Is that all of the positive attributions that they would hold when we're alive comes out in this sort of guilt-ridden. Like proclamation of how great and how good you were. So it's like, it's, it's not, it's, it's that thing that you're saying where we speak positive that, but it's like more because you, it's almost as if they know they should have said more or did more, and they're trying to make up for it after they're gone. Like, and I, I don't ever wanna be that, so that, that's what pushes me to go so hard. But you're right, I do need to like find, find balance. So it's almost like since they were lost early, since they were taken early, they weren't lost, they were taken early. Right. People want to put as much life into them even though they're gone as they can. Yes. And then that the pressure of that distorts some things and it's missed opportunities that people are trying to make up for. And you don't ever wanna be that for somebody. Yeah, no. Like I, I, I, I dread, I have nightmares about people going through my Facebook posts. Hmm. And Twitter posts and my YouTube videos after I'm gone, I said, oh, he said this thing on this day. I, and I'm thinking about it when I'm here. I'm like, I've been saying this for 10 years. Mm-hmm. But the day after, you know, I transition will be the, the moment that it's like, oh, let's, let's review what we can gain from it. So I, I, I don't want that. I want my, I give people flowers while they're here. I want my flowers while I'm here. Mm-hmm. Because people need them, you know, with suicide. I think about that. I've lost people to suicide. Mm-hmm. And I don't want to ever be called on. I wished I said how great you were. I wish I said how I liked your sense of style or how kind you were and all that, you know. So it all frames into my ethic of how I engage the world is to be forward thinking. And how I distribute goodness and wellbeing to the people around me. And I want that for myself too. Yeah. I think what I've, what I really liked about moving into the helping space is there's a resonance in the world where you get, when you're of service, the world tends to serve you. Right? Like, that opens up some connections that weren't there before I started doing this work that I desperately missed. I wish more people knew that. I love the depth and the vulnerability that you've shared here. Man, I, I feel like it's a, it's a really good gift. It's bringing tears to my eyes on how much that's hitting me. I wanna try to leave people with some practical, like I, like we were talking about, right? You can't operationalize connection, but maybe you can operationalize, not screwing up. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, if I can't be the connection point and make that space for somebody, maybe I can just ensure in a moment where that fear's in me. How do I hold that without you having to hold it? Like, what would I need to do to show you that I'm handling my stuff over there, right? Mm-hmm. Like, not that I'm fixing it. Not that it's not there, not that I'm better, but let's say you get that, you get that feeling off of somebody, right? They're in the court and they start treating you like you work for 'em. Mm-hmm. And then you see them catch themselves. How would they let you know they caught themselves in a way that isn't performative, but gives some space back to the room? Yeah. I think it is, uh, giving power. Power and that asking if they're catching themselves in that moment saying, Hey, are you good? Like, what would you prefer? You wanna do it like this? Like that. It's like a very, it's not an apology, like a soft dude apology, right. That like you could, yeah. Yeah. But it's like kinda is, yeah. Like, because, because when you, you, you share power, that means that you're not threatened by what I'm gonna do with it. And you have trust in the way that I'm. Navigate. So that sort of thing. That will be it, man. I don't think people who haven't experienced understand how powerful that you Good comment. Yeah. Like, like sometimes it's, it's the best apology we get. So we can go back to do what You good. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. It's just, it's a, it's because in that moment I'm acknowledging that I need you to be okay. I have a preference for you to feel all right in this moment. And you know, guys, we're not gonna outline all the things but you saying that like, good. You all right? Cool. For now we can, we can move the next part. Yeah. I think on the, um, like on my end of it, one of the hard things, and it's like the first time I heard it during the early Beyond movement, it hit me like a ton of bricks with a white fragility of. Oh my gosh, I tripped on something. I'm having all these feelings about it. Please take care of me after I hurt you. So I think the other end of that is, as the guy who's saying it, if you ask that question, you have to be ready for the answer. And if their answer is they're not, don't make them take care of you. Well, they're not okay. Yeah. That's the thing about when you thinking about harm, when it happens and forgiveness, people do not owe someone a response that will make them feel better or make it feel like a situation has been resolved. Like they, they don't owe, owe them that. So that's like, is people sometimes confused when you, let's say someone hurts you. Let's say someone hurts me. Mm-hmm. And they, they might come up to me and say, Hey, I'm sorry I, I wish I didn't do that. And I say, okay, cool. Now you apologizing. Doesn't mean that I, I owe you the statement of I forgive you. Yeah, I don't owe you forgiveness because you're, sorry, I don't, I don't owe you forgiveness. I don't owe you shared situations. I can't make things go back to normal. And we would like to, as we make things as right as possible, we want that right as possible to be in relationship where we can actually offer other modes of repair. But what may feel right as possible for someone in a certain moment may mean distant. It may mean just letting you reflect. It may, it may mean a variety of things, and that's okay. I think that's one of the harder parts of a lot of this kind of work is the acceptance of their story for you. And I can apologize, but if we're only seeing each other in this instant in time, we're not close. We don't know each other, right? I'm now gonna be the guy that did that to you and your story, and that's all I am. Because I'm not in your story otherwise, and there's nothing I'm gonna say in that moment that's gonna make me not the guy who did it. I can soften it, I can give you a ramp out of it, but I gotta, you know, we're gone. Right. I can at least acknowledge that I did that. I'm sorry, lemme step back. You'll have a good day. Mm-hmm. I think that this is the hard part for guys who don't have a diverse group around them is we never get to see the other side of it. Right? Like if you're a human being and you're social, you're gonna hurt the people you're social with. And part of like the only people I feel close with are the ones that have let me repair. Yeah. And the ones I've let repair, because we all make the mistakes. I think some of this is gonna fall back on the men's groups like you got going on. Where even if you don't have access to build relationships and build community with these people that are hurting. Right. Like if you're a white guy and you don't live around black guys and it's not appropriate for you to go trying to fish for a black friend, like that's ridiculous. Right. Josh Johnson had a great bit about that. He's like, I'm done being the first black friend. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like I don't wanna do that anymore. But if you can get around other people that are processing, being that guy mm-hmm. And trying to do better. Yeah. That are also trying, maybe it'll be easier to take the hit when you ask, like you mess up, you're the asshole in the moment. You get called out or you notice and you say you're sorry. Mm-hmm. Sometimes that's all we get, right? Mm-hmm. There's no room for accountability. There's no space. You don't owe me accountability. But if I have people I can go process that with, that I can trust to like help me do better. Yeah. That I know we're trying to do better. Maybe that's some of the best that these guys can do, that I can do out where I'm at. Yeah. You, you find, you, you right. You find shared spaces process. Like when I was doing more on the groundwork, I would say that to people, sometimes you might need to get a, a good book group and light a candle at the house and do some, some reflection. Uh, some express book aren't for ladies any, aren't just for ladies anymore. They're not just for ladies, but men. If we're talking about the dynamics in which men build relationship or connection, this life shared activity is, is one thing that's very big. Mm-hmm. Uh, that men like to, to go and, and we don't like to, we don't like to sort of talking directly to you about feelings. You wanna both shoot guns. I'm gonna take the most masculine stereotype, shoot guns, and let's go shoot. So we can talk about our wives. Yeah. Or whatever it is. Or go run, go-karts or, or go to the bar, whatever framework it is for you to build connections. With people. And, and if that's in places that are more, uh, expansive or more inclusive, then you, there's a, there's a line, like when I, going back to what I was saying before, knowing the people who have had some shared community with black folks, I can tell mm-hmm. Because that little, the flinched in, uh, that you do, or you being afraid when I'm too close behind you or mm-hmm. Uh, making sure I'm always in your line of sight. Like all those little subtle micro expressions, they, they dissipate and mm-hmm. And I might be one of the people who kind of learn the language of how to narrate those things. Mm-hmm. But everybody hasn't put this sort level of attention and focus of talking about it like that, and they won't. Mm-hmm. Hmm. But if you, you are actually engaging spaces that allow for conversation or engaging spaces that allow for other types of people to be present. Because as, as a black dude. Man, if I go into a place and it's, look, it is too many white people that look alike there. I'm, I'm concerned. It don't matter what the look is, it's just, if it's this, one of these things is not like the other, this is uncomfortable. Yeah. Yeah. If everybody in there got on plaid or everybody in there got on, um, uh, cam camouflage, like, it's just, I can tell when there's not a lot of difference in the space. Mm-hmm. It doesn't always have to be relative to race, but I can tell a space of too homogenous. I, I'm, that's one of my, my cues that I need to be, be on alert. The space does not belong to me, doesn't belong to me. It belongs to somebody. And, you know, I don't wanna find out the hard way that it's, it's like that. So I think that people seeking out diverse spaces can really help that instead of being like the guy that said he was the first black friend and you get pulled into predominantly white spaces and I'm like, oh, this, I'm not having a good time here. And my white friend doesn't notice. Like, because this is mm-hmm. His element, you know? Uh, that Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that actually, I guess I, I really like the idea of being a good guest and being a good host in these moments, right? Like, if I walk into a place, like, let's say that for whatever reason I find myself in a black barbershop and I'm the only white guy in the room mm-hmm. I know I'm a guest there. Mm-hmm. And that is exactly where I, that this is not my space. If I walk into it like it's mine, I'm gonna get checked and I should get checked. This isn't okay. Mm-hmm. And the difference is, like, I, for me, I guess like going back to high school, it was basketball. Mm-hmm. Like the white kids played baseball and soccer and football was more mixed culturally. Mm-hmm. But basketball, like most, mostly it wasn't white guys. You didn't show up on the court. That wasn't your space, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I knew that if I went with somebody. Who was hosting me, I could play ball, like if I had an invite. Yeah. And the person that invited me was trying to host me. Oh, okay. Like they, Hey, you good? Oh, that? Mm-hmm. That's okay, man, that, that there was a plaid sale at Target. Like, it's not a like, sorry, I know that's weird. Are you sure? Okay. Did you not get, this is how it typically is where I'm at. If you, with basketball, if you're a white dude and you can hoop, it's fine. Then you get a pass you would like, you, you like, but if you not like, like that, like that, then it's like, then, then it's Is that, was it like that for you or was it No, so I couldn't play, well man, I'm clumsy, I'm all feet. Mm-hmm. And so I had to go in being willing to be a joke. Okay. Okay. Got it. Right. Like for my, for me it was, can I make this humor before it's bullying? And this is where that guesting and hosting comes in. Right. Like, let's say that you and I were hanging out and I was gonna bring you somewhere, and I look around and it's all like, people look like me and no one that looks like you. Mm-hmm. I'm gonna check in with you. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, I'm not gonna notice everything you notice. I'm not gonna cue on all the things you're gonna notice. Mm-hmm. But I can at least like check in with you, see if you're okay. See if you got questions. And I can body block assholes. Right? Like, if somebody comes up and is misbehaving the, I'm the, I'm the host. This is my space, I'll correct that person. You don't mm-hmm. And you're, something happens. I'm, I got you. Like, you're a guest here. You don't have, you don't have to clean up this mess. But I think that we're so afraid, and we're so either we're so afraid that we ignore it. We're like, oh man, he's my friend. It'll be fine. And we don't check in. Mm-hmm. And we don't look for their experience while they're there. You cannot post. Well. Yeah. And like that. The difference is, I don't mind difference and distinction. Like That's cool. It gets weird when you're with someone who, who's uncomfortable mm-hmm. With talking about it or acknowledging it, and it's changing what type of experience that you're having because they're, they can't adjust in the way that you have to. I think for me, what I've found is as like a more liberal guy, right? There's a lot of shame around white culture because white culture doesn't exist without racism. Mm-hmm. Like our families gave up their European identity to become white and there is white culture. It's been going on long enough. Mm-hmm. That we've got some good things in there anyway. Mm-hmm. Right. Even though it was built from this thing, there's been some flowers, right? Yeah. Y'all got like Lynyrd Skinner, you know, you got Leonard Skinner mayonnaise. I'm a big fan of mayonnaise. Uh, uh, mayonnaise. There's a few things. Skateboarding, grilling culture, I feel is very white, right? Some of it, at least of here. Right. Like that steak. I think we gotta be respectful of time and I want people. To get to know this part of you too, right? Mm-hmm. The, the three questions I've been bringing to this, because at the end of the day, like the, the focus of this podcast is on masculinity and how different people experience different parts of it. Yeah. And the goal is with these is acknowledging that that is a masculine experience, but it is not the v masculine experience. Everybody's got a little difference in how they, how they run with that. So is you ready for some of those questions that I handed you early? Yeah. All right, man, this is, so far, this has been my favorite one.'cause I always like, I've been surprised by the answer so many times. What's a truth about masculinity? You learned before you were 12. That's still true today. That's made the test of time. People don't know what to do with male softness. Mm. They just don't know what to do with it. Mm. And it doesn't matter how much we talk about it, they still struggle to know what to do with it. Like I always say, mentally cry. They should feel. And then when we do cry, like, whoa, what's, what's happening? Like it disrupt something. Yeah. Yeah. It, that's a key moment in my office most of the time. Like a lot of guys only come in when their, their spouses make 'em come, right? Mm-hmm. And the spouse always wants the same thing. I want 'em to communicate. I want 'em to be emotional. Mm-hmm. And then there's a struggle with when it starts to happen, it's uncomfortable. We're not supposed to see men like that. Even with this person, that is the person we're supposed to be allowed to do it with. It's hard. What's your earliest memory that, that got checked for you where you weren't allowed to be soft? Earliest memory. I remember I was a, a tearful kid. I don't know if it was a, a particular one that I have in my, but I remember and my family always being like saying like, oh, like stop crying. Like you shouldn't like one to toughen me up. And did you get the, I'll give you something to cry about? Oh yeah, absolutely. Uh, I got that. I'll give you something to cry about. But I do remember like the focus on me being emotional. It's like this, looking back at it now, this, this idea that if you are tearful, if you're emotional, your thought in that, that lens, you will not be able to navigate the world. Mm-hmm. The world will break you. Mm-hmm. If you cry when hard things happen. And as I've gotten older, I am still sensitive, but it doesn't package the same way. It's like, yeah, you've learned to, there's the shell over it that you gotta, you can keep up that they taught you. And, and I'm protecting other people who feel strongly, who show up. And I'm giving them the permission to do that by being a particular type of master masculine man that says you. It's okay. But it shows up now in that way. But yeah, that's, that's what it was like when I was younger. Mm. The message I got, you know, toughen up, stop crying. Yeah. I think that's the, there's a real truth to it as well. Like the world will not tend to your tears and you need to find people that will, and I think that's the second part of the lesson that we lost. Right. I think there's some truth to, if you're a man in the world, like there's this expectation that I've gotta be hard enough that people see me as safe, and then I can be soft with you. Right. And I'd love it if the bar dropped for what that took. Right. I hope that the boys coming up, we do better with. Yep. But a buddy of mine that I work with, he, he says it best. He's like, our, our job is to teach guys. They don't have to hold it together all the time, but they do most of the time. Ah, that I, I, I really appreciate that. That's Yes. Yes. You know, one of the things that was really helpful for me in my life, like my dad, he passed when I was younger. Mm-hmm. But he was always warm. Mm-hmm. And very loving, very, very, a hugger. Like very loving. And so when I tap into my parents give me different things like my mom mm-hmm. My passion, my stepdad, my discipline. My dad liked love, like he was a lover. And when I think about how I show up and display masculinity, a lot of it is informed by how, how poor he was with being cared. Mm-hmm. Caring with me. And there was never any moment that I felt like I couldn't get that from him. Mm-hmm. And as I got older, I realized it's beautiful. Seeing, when I got older, I realized everybody didn't, I didn't know that that meant something. And now I, now I look at what, but that's just your normal Yeah. It's just normal. And I'm on podcast talking about masculinity and softness and all of this. Uh, but yeah, I'm, I'm grateful for it. Yeah. I think that's the, that's the tricky part of our family stories is we've gotta, most people don't, don't have true monsters for parents. Most people have parents who were who they were and monstrous sometimes. Mm. Right? Mm-hmm. And the vast majority of people, their parents weren't monstrous. They were just flawed. Right, right. But for those of us with monsters in that dynamic, part of why it's so hard is because you've gotta suss out both of those lessons. Yeah. Of like, this is what they taught me that is good, that I can bring into the world that isn't necessarily normal in other families. And this is what I know not to do. And everybody's gotta kind of figure out that story for themselves and their family. It's my favorite part of the job is helping people figure out what those are. Oh, stories. I've learned that as I've gotten older now in the work that I do now, I do a lot of restorative justice and I do advocacy. Now I'm a storyteller. That's the only way to teach. I apparently, I didn't think I, I didn't, I didn't think that, I didn't see being a storyteller, part of who I would become, but that's, that's what part of what I'm No, man. You, you're good at it. I'm glad you're doing it. So let's get two more before I let you get outta here. So the next one is, tell me about a time when pursuing manhood hurt you, where you kind of did it wrong. I remember being, being younger and thinking, you gotta be telling all these stories I've never told before. Oh, oh man. Thank you. Yesterday they, yeah, I mean, it's time to tell 'em. I remember being younger and I was like maybe four or five in kindergarten. It was this, this young, this little girl in kindergarten, I remember thinking, I'm supposed to be liking girls. Mm-hmm. It was like a year I came to kindergarten a year earlier. I was like, like four. Mm-hmm. And it hadn't hit me yet. And I remember that it hadn't hit me at that point. And, but I found this girl that I thought was supposed to, to be like, either pretty or desirable and was like, she's the one that I'm supposed to like, and like, I guess like staring at her like, oh, this is what you do. Like this is as a young boy. And I remember by the time I think I was like first grade, that's when I got like my first crush and I was so relieved. I'm like, now I'm, now I'm like, what I'm supposed to be. And so that was, I don't, I don't remember anybody telling me any particular lessons. I was so young, but something clicked and maybe somebody did, maybe somebody different, but you learned. But I learned and I remember being relieved. Mm-hmm. I feel the thing that everyone else is feeling now. Mm-hmm. Uh, and I think the thing that makes me feel like a, the lesson about masculinity, that I think it was so, felt so big Mm. At that moment in a way that it, it shouldn't have big Yeah. That, yeah. I think there's a Yeah. That have unpack. Yeah. I think there's something to that where, you know, kids play acting adult things mm-hmm. On a certain point is what they're supposed to do. Right. It's how we learn. Mm-hmm. But you never know when a kid is gonna get the wrong end of it. Right. Mm-hmm. I think it's so interesting that yours happened so early, like that somebody kind of pointed you that way and you were holding this thing that was too big for how old you were. Yeah. I, you don't think about what the messages are that you absorb and it wasn't until I, I started to, to be exposed. It's a lot of other philosophies I minored in philosophy when I was in mm-hmm. In my undergrad, and you start being exposed to feminist, feminist discourse and, and beliefs and understanding. And later as I got older, they started talking about like, grips of what it means to be heterosexual. And I'm like, mm-hmm. At first I was like, oh, I don't know. And then I started thinking back like, oh, okay. I can see how this fits that where you, you're learning mm-hmm. What you're supposed to do. Uh, and yeah. Yeah. I think that's the, you know, that's a whole other episode, but the kinda the patriarchal sexuality that we get stuck with as heterosexual men. Mm-hmm. And how much better relationships and sex get when you put that down. Yeah. Yeah. But it's so baked in that you can swim in it for so long and never know that you're, you're missing out. All right, man. So we're gonna, we're gonna go out on a high note and tell us about a time where pursuit of your manhood empowered you. So for black men, uh, there's a couple of things that are a function of our masculinity, which is, you know, community and, and elders and, and protection, uh, family spirituality. And I remember, you know, I talk about the, the movement, the Black Lives Matter movement, but more so I'm talking about the men there that had passed on and were killed through the police violence. And I think being able to speak to their dignity and get on stages and run realities and protest in a way that they couldn't do for themselves anymore. Mm-hmm. It was such a tragic moment to find this thing, but I felt. It, it, it made me feel whole to be able to protect them in a sense mm-hmm. To, to speak for them in a sense and feel like this is, this is what it means to be a man, is to take on this sort of defense of the folks in my community, not just those men, but my cousin mm-hmm. And my uncles and, you know, my, the grandparents, my, my, my, my stepdad and, and, and talking to him about the things I was advocating about that I know he couldn't say mm-hmm. At the time that, that, that thing that, oh, this is what it means to be, to be a man for me. You have this thing that you know is passionately important to you. Mm-hmm. And then there's that inflection moment. Yeah. Where, you know, a man steps up. Mm-hmm. Like, this is my moment. And then you stepped off and started running. Yeah. Because sometimes we trip. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I got plenty of moments in my life where like, oh, this is where a man steps up, fall flat on my face. Right? Mm-hmm. This one sounds like you did something hard and continue to do a hard thing from service and protection. Yeah. And you wouldn't have known to do that if it hadn't have been how you were taught masculinity. Correct. I love that. Yeah. My stepdad used to make me, he used to make me read, he used to make me read Black history and write reports on it. Well, the schools weren't doing it. Oh, yeah. Especially shouldn't be. He knew. That's funny. As it is. And he was older and he, I hated it at the time, but so much of my sense of masculinity, my sense of responsibility and sacrifice and service, it comes from those stories. Mm-hmm. That I read and I wrote about Well, and he wouldn't let him be erased for you. Right. I think that's the tragedy of America. Like across the board, we erase our histories. Mm-hmm. And like from my end, it's for privilege, right? Mm-hmm. To be privileged, you gotta put down these things. But I remember when I figured that out and I still had some family old enough that I could go, Hey, what's it mean to be Irish? Mm-hmm. Like, what do you remember about your parents? Mm-hmm. That like, they, they put away that they didn't let you have. And I wish, like that's something I hope we can learn from you. Hmm. Is we can find our histories if we put down our privilege. Yeah. And those, there's beauty in them. In culture. That's just culture. Yeah. There's power, there's purpose, there's history that you feel in your bones. Mm-hmm. That everybody has. Everybody's got ancestors. I love that your stepfather was so purposeful about making sure you knew yours. Yeah. He recently passed. I'm sorry. I appreciate it. And I'll always tell 'em, thank you, thank you for, for the thing. I learned this from you. This is what I'm doing and I get to give it to somebody else. I think that's how it's supposed to work. Right, right. Like that. I, I think that's what I always try to instill in the fathers I work with is, your kids are never gonna give this back to you. Mm-hmm. It doesn't belong to you. Mm-hmm. It belongs to their kids. And the kids they're around and that's when you get to see things flower. That's when you get to see all that work come to come to fruition. But it's never, if you think about it like, I'm doing this to get something, you're doing it wrong. Right. Well, I'm gonna go wash my face'cause I cried a little bit. Appreciate you. Yeah. Um, I guess kind of two, two final things is, uh, if there were a book or two that you wish people to look like me would read, what, what are they? Oh, the Man. Not by Dr. Nik Curry. Yeah. He is, uh, one of the prominent figure figures in black male studies. It breaks down a lot of the distinct distinctions that happen for black men. Mm-hmm. Get the man, not, and that, that's the book. I haven't read it, so now I got something to do. It is dense. Now I'm gonna give you full warning. It is a dense, dense book. And I didn't you read hold mind dense. As long as there's some stories in there, I'm good. And if there isn't, I'm sure if his work, like you're saying, has impacted all these people, I'm sure I can find some people that can have stories that'll back up what's in there for me if I need to. Yeah. Without bothering anybody. I think that's the other thing is you gotta remember, like, it's nobody's job to educate you, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And there's people like you that are willing to do it for strangers. Mm-hmm. You don't gotta do it to them. Yeah. And then if people were looking for you, if they wanted to, to see some of your work to connect with you, where would they find you? Yeah, you can find me. You find my org B Men foundation, uh, at BN foundation.org. I'm on medium writing under Martin X and on Substack at Martin hb. So that's And and what's your nonprofit do? BE We run support spaces for black men. We do a support space once a month. Every second Sunday we run other programs and we focus specifically on black male advocacy and issues that are specific to black men. Mm-hmm. So, uh, that's, that's what we've been doing. We've been doing that for seven years. It feels unreal every time I say it. Mm-hmm. So that's, that's where we've been at. Every time I've talked to somebody who's either found or built a community, I think we're so sorry for it that we forget how crazy it is when we have it, that, how good it feels, how whole it feels. So, I'm so glad you're building that for folks. It's so needed. Just across the board, man. Everybody's missing it, it seems like. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks so much for coming on, man. I'm gonna let you, uh, get back to your evening. You stayed a little long for me, man. I can't, I can't tell you how much I appreciate everything. Oh, this was a great conversation. Thanks for having me. And that's our conversation with Martin. I hope you learned as much as I did. We fact checked the conversation and there really wasn't anything to correct. Martin's a fantastic professional who brought grounded insights and kept me on track. Remember, thinking is a smart man's procrastination. Take what you learned here and go practice in your world however you can. If you need some more help, take a look at the worksheet we developed out for how to walk into spaces that don't belong to you. I think it'll help. Remember at the beginning I asked you where there were spaces where you weren't comfortable going into. Has this made you feel any more ready to do so? Message me or give me a comment and let me know. I really wanna make these as good as I can for you. We're still pretty new at this and I need the feedback so. Take the minute. Gimme a message. Leave a comment. Next week we're gonna be talking about how to build out a men's group. We'll see you there.
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